Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

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Cassus Fett
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Cassus Fett » January 28th, 2019, 2:40 pm

If you search for an application called ShowBox you can watch it on there
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

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borgmatrix
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by borgmatrix » January 29th, 2019, 9:09 am

Cassus Fett wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 2:40 pm
If you search for an application called ShowBox you can watch it on there
Thanks. I've got a few more weeks on my free month of All Access, so for now I'm good. I'll gauge whether I want to continue with Discovery after a couple more episodes.

So I watched the first episode of season 2 last night with my brother. Neither of us were too impressed.

SPOILERS below.

I like the overall story idea (unknown signals the Discovery is investigating), but didn't find the execution to be particularly good so far.

I like the actor they found for Pike, though I'm not sure if its good or bad for the show to have him on board. I was certainly excited in the opening minutes, seeing the Enterprise and feeling that thrill of a historic character within Trek coming aboard. But I also worry about Discovery not developing its own identity for its crew. In season 1, we wasted the first two episodes on board another ship, which felt like it really cut into the early development of the Discovery crew. Characters were killed, such as the security chief early on and the medical chief late. Captain Lorca turned out to be an imposter. Now we have yet another captain with Pike, and its Enterprise's captain. The science officer that came over with him is dead. Presumably we'll be getting to know a new chief medical officer in addition to the woman in red that came over with Pike. It's a lot of instability. Maybe they don't care with Burnam being the main character. But I think we do need stable development of core characters.

A lot of the attempts at humor didn't land for me. We really didn't need the alien sneezing on another crew member gag in the turbolift.

Sequences seemed to go on too long, such as in the asteroid field. And I questioned the decision to show us that Burnam caught Pike, but then to still play the moment on the bridge of "did they survive?" Why waste our time with melodramatics when we'd just seen that she succeeded in catching him? Later down on the crashed starship when they were beaming everyone out and Burnam was thrown back, that led extra bits of her running and then seeing something strange approaching, only for it to be Pike and then for her to be beamed out. Did we really need that extension? Couldn't she have just been beamed out with the rest? Another odd choice was setting up Pike as being in command for this mission (to find out what's behind the signals), which seemed a clear indication he's here for the season. But then at the end, he turns things back over to Saru. And then there's a scene after that in the ready room where he's now in Discovery style uniform saying he is going to stay after all. Why all the unnecessary back and forth?

The above seemed like attempts to pad the episode run time. I don't know that its a good sign that they can't fill the very first episode of the season without pumping in excess calories.

Way too obvious they were going to kill off the obnoxious science officer during that asteroid sequence.

And, maybe this will be just me, but I'm truly not interested in the slightest in an extended Burnam-Spock storyline/backstory. I'm already still annoyed that they decided to force Burnam into an established family dynamic. Now it feels like we're going to get a lot of writing gymnastics to explain why Burnam's name has never been mentioned before with respect to Spock and his family. Unnecessary, again, feels like the word. I'll add that I just don't find Burnam likeable at all, which feels problematic given the focus on her as main character. Sonequa Martin-Green seems so vibrant a personality that I still can't understand why they needed to force a Vulcan upbringing on her human character, preventing us from seeing the liveliness that Sonequa could have brought to this.

As much as I felt the thrill of seeing Pike and Enterprise, I really wish they'd made Saru captain for this mission, not included Pike/Enterprise, and started to develop Discovery to stand on its own feet. And while I know its coming, I wish it wasn't and that they'd keep Spock off-screen. Having him lead Enterprise while Pike is away would have been a perfectly reasonable option for him not being a presence this season. But, sigh, I know...he's Burnam's (step)brother, so they've gotta go there.

I hope this season gets much better, but sadly I also think its saddled by a problematic beginning in season 1, and I don't know that it can escape it enough to overcome the issues I noted.

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borgmatrix
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by borgmatrix » February 18th, 2019, 9:07 am

So I've seen another two episodes of Discovery (episodes 2 and 3). The season is getting more interesting to me with each episode, though I'm still not convinced or won over yet.

Episode 2 felt like a nice throwback to TOS episodes with the crew finding a town very reminiscent of those in Earth's past. And I am intrigued by the overall story of the season, the mystery of these signals they're detecting across the universe. I also think getting the setup out of the way in the first episode helped this one feel less cluttered.

Episode 3 brought back the Klingon stuff, which I wasn't too enthused to see after last season, but there are some interesting developments here. I'm actually finding myself much more interested in seeing them develop this than the Spock plotline. Speaking of...

I'm still really not sure why they felt the need to delve into Spock's life in what seems like, at least so far, a dramatic departure from what we know. I'm not sure how they pull this back such that its going to feel like the character we know and love. And it just feels unnecessary. But, I'll have to reserve final judgement for once its all done and I've seen where they're headed.

My free month of CBS All Access is done after Wednesday and I've got two more episodes to watch, plus this week's assuming it drops first half of the week.

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Lord Tesla
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Lord Tesla » March 1st, 2019, 3:38 pm

borgmatrix wrote:
January 29th, 2019, 9:09 am
Cassus Fett wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 2:40 pm
If you search for an application called ShowBox you can watch it on there
Thanks. I've got a few more weeks on my free month of All Access, so for now I'm good. I'll gauge whether I want to continue with Discovery after a couple more episodes.

So I watched the first episode of season 2 last night with my brother. Neither of us were too impressed.

(...)

SPOILERS









As much as I felt the thrill of seeing Pike and Enterprise(...)



So, which version of Enterprise did they use? Original pilot, original series, original series enhanced TMP/NCC-1701A, or the Abrams 2009 feature film version?
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Cassus Fett
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Cassus Fett » March 5th, 2019, 8:45 am

Not sure which Enterprise they used but it wasn't Abrams/Kelvinverse ship.

https://www.empireonline.com/movies/new ... rd-series/

So we have a drink and drugs addict and a thief in the show?
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borgmatrix
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by borgmatrix » March 7th, 2019, 1:05 pm

Lord Tesla wrote:
March 1st, 2019, 3:38 pm
So, which version of Enterprise did they use? Original pilot, original series, original series enhanced TMP/NCC-1701A, or the Abrams 2009 feature film version?
:o :-o :shock: LT's back!!!!!

What was the question? Oh, right...I honestly can't remember. Probably yet another slightly altered variation.

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Cassus Fett
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Cassus Fett » March 7th, 2019, 3:45 pm

I really like the STD Enterprise
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

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borgmatrix
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by borgmatrix » March 9th, 2019, 2:36 pm

Cassus Fett wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 3:45 pm
I really like the STD Enterprise
Yeah, I don't remember having any issues with it. But, honestly, I don't usually watch that carefully for changed details.

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Lord Tesla
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Lord Tesla » March 11th, 2019, 4:51 pm

borgmatrix wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 1:05 pm

:o :-o :shock: LT's back!!!!!

What was the question? Oh, right...I honestly can't remember. Probably yet another slightly altered variation.
Yep, back. Good to be back, good to see you're still here. Senators, and posts, seem to be a bit sparse.

My guess, and it's not much more than that, on the ship is that it might be the original pilot version, since the series is, IIRC, set in the original series milieu and predates the five-year mission under Kirk's command. The chief external differences, if memory serves, between the Pilot ship and the revised model used in the series, were the non-luminous spiked forward domes on the nacelles and the array of perforations at the aft end of said nacelles of the Pilot version. The larger example, the eleven-footer, of the Pilot version was altered several times, first during the Original Series to add the lit domes at the forward end of the nacelles, and to replace the exhaust-ports/grilles at the after end with the spherical structures that remained until the Refit, when the model was updated for use in the feature films, in all of which from TMP to ST:VI it appeared.

If there's one thing I pay attention to, it's starships. ;) Heck, they'd probably make me as happy if they dispensed with the human characters and made the programs about the ships with artificial intelligences operating them serving as the characters. Make Bill Shatner the voice of Enterprise's machine mind.
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Lord Tesla » March 11th, 2019, 4:55 pm

Cassus Fett wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 3:45 pm
I really like the STD Enterprise
Y'know, the way I first read that, it seemed like the Enterprise had contracted genital herpes or something. :laugh:

But that probably only happened after James T. Kirk became the C.O. ...
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borgmatrix
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by borgmatrix » March 12th, 2019, 12:42 pm

Lord Tesla wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 4:51 pm
;) Heck, they'd probably make me as happy if they dispensed with the human characters and made the programs about the ships with artificial intelligences operating them serving as the characters. Make Bill Shatner the voice of Enterprise's machine mind.
That sounds more interesting that what we've gotten from Discovery so far. Who can we talk to about making you showrunner for next season. Hmm...

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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Lord Tesla » March 19th, 2019, 7:45 pm

borgmatrix wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 12:42 pm
Lord Tesla wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 4:51 pm
;) Heck, they'd probably make me as happy if they dispensed with the human characters and made the programs about the ships with artificial intelligences operating them serving as the characters. Make Bill Shatner the voice of Enterprise's machine mind.
That sounds more interesting that what we've gotten from Discovery so far. Who can we talk to about making you showrunner for next season. Hmm...
Thanks! I'm not sure whom to talk to about it. If you find out, and get the discussion ball rolling, I'm sure I can make time for such a worthy project. ;)

Meanwhile, I discovered (is that a pun?) which Enterprise they used. There's a video on Youtube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d9MjE8p3xk ) that gives a good sense of it, and, I did a little reading on Wikipedia. Seems it's a hodgepodge of elements from all the non-reboot NCC 1701 models used over the years. That's not the best way to go about fashioning a "period-authentic" Enterprise, to my way of thinking, but it's a nice looking ship, no doubt.
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borgmatrix
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by borgmatrix » March 22nd, 2019, 8:47 am

Lord Tesla wrote:
March 19th, 2019, 7:45 pm
That's not the best way to go about fashioning a "period-authentic" Enterprise, to my way of thinking, but it's a nice looking ship, no doubt.
Though I'm not sure to what degree we can say "period authentic" is really the goal, given the uniforms, technology, Spock stuff (at least through first 4-5 episodes of season 2, haven't seen any since). I think its more do-whatever-we-want.
Last edited by borgmatrix on March 26th, 2019, 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Lord Tesla » March 23rd, 2019, 3:35 am

borgmatrix wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 8:47 am
Though I'm not sure to what degree we can see "period authentic" is really the goal, given the uniforms, technology, Spock stuff (at least through first 4-5 episodes of season 2, haven't seen any since). I think its more do-whatever-we-want.
I think you're right. The bridge set in action during the first part of that Youtube clip was certainly out-of-place for the 23rd century from which James T. Kirk and NCC 1701 haled originally. But, then, they never were too worried about that sort of thing in Trek. During the original run there were a great many inconsistencies, and they only had one program to keep track of, which they were making up as they went along.

I do wish they'd do better with the continuity in these things, nevertheless.
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by borgmatrix » March 26th, 2019, 9:43 am

Lord Tesla wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 3:35 am
But, then, they never were too worried about that sort of thing in Trek. During the original run there were a great many inconsistencies, and they only had one program to keep track of, which they were making up as they went along.
True. And I'll admit, its not a huge issue for me.

But, I do wonder why they keep going into the past instead of into the future for new shows. Feels like they'd avoid a lot of these issues and have true free rein to due what they wanted.

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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by Lord Tesla » March 28th, 2019, 9:45 pm

borgmatrix wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 9:43 am
Lord Tesla wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 3:35 am
But, then, they never were too worried about that sort of thing in Trek. During the original run there were a great many inconsistencies, and they only had one program to keep track of, which they were making up as they went along.
True. And I'll admit, its not a huge issue for me.
I have nitpickers guides, reference books, and a considerable store direct observation against which to measure every move they make. :laugh: But, more often then not, it's done with pleasure. Some things they do drive me nuts--when it flows from or produces bad writing or other bad product, most often--but, for the rest, it's like being part of the Baker Street Irregulars: looking at the blunders and inconsistencies trying to think of ways to put it together and make some kind of sense out of it.
borgmatrix wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 9:43 am
But, I do wonder why they keep going into the past instead of into the future for new shows. Feels like they'd avoid a lot of these issues and have true free rein to due what they wanted.
But having free reign and doing your own thing is hard, and risky. People might not like it. People might tune out. IIRC, the last time they went forward was Deep Space Nine during the Dominion War, and that didn't go down real well. Way easier to retreat into the past era, recycle the characters, refit the ships with anachronistic tech/effects, and retro fit the stories with the latest causes, and buzzwords. There's you're answer.
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Re: Star Trek - From TOS to Discovery and Beyond

Post by borgmatrix » March 29th, 2019, 9:14 am

Lord Tesla wrote:
March 28th, 2019, 9:45 pm
I have nitpickers guides, reference books, and a considerable store direct observation against which to measure every move they make. :laugh: But, more often then not, it's done with pleasure. Some things they do drive me nuts--when it flows from or produces bad writing or other bad product, most often--but, for the rest, it's like being part of the Baker Street Irregulars: looking at the blunders and inconsistencies trying to think of ways to put it together and make some kind of sense out of it.
I like that mindset. Like you, bad writing/plotting will definitely bring out strong criticism (see my thoughts on the recent SW Episodes), but like you said, it can fun in other cases/scenarios to think out reasons that make sense within the story/univerise.
But having free reign and doing your own thing is hard, and risky. People might not like it. People might tune out. IIRC, the last time they went forward was Deep Space Nine during the Dominion War, and that didn't go down real well. Way easier to retreat into the past era, recycle the characters, refit the ships with anachronistic tech/effects, and retro fit the stories with the latest causes, and buzzwords. There's you're answer.
Oh, sure. I agree. But what's easier to retreat into doesn't equal a good choice, which I sense you agree with.

Deep Space Nine is my favorite Trek. I don't think its them going into new directions that was a problem. I think it was Paramount/Berman deciding there had to be a show on tv involving a starship that gave audiences and easy escape to instead of sitting with and growing with DS9. After all, Voyager was set in the time period, and that seemed successful enough as far as whatever numbers/viewership Paramount was looking for. Obviously, from a writing/quality standpoint, it was a disaster.

The reality it, Voyager, despite being set after TNG (and therefore not a show going into the past), recycled character/plot/format etc with the best of them. I don't know that I really see a big difference between Voyager and the first two seasons of Enterprise other than the latter also being hamstrung by poor/odd story/arc choices given the era they'd chosen. That only opened Enterprise up to more criticism.

So while I understand the (superficial) thought process TPTB might have in going into the past, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Discovery, set in the past, sucks. Flat out. Nothing about the safe choice of going pre-TOS has saved it. Meanwhile, plotting and story choices, bad writing, that has doomed its first couple seasons.

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