Darth Sidious/Palpatine (Emperor, Chancellor, and Senator)

[Darth_Stinky]

In my humble opinion, Darth Sidious and Palpatine are the same person. *I note the "Superman" example, as we never see them in the same place at the same time. *So they have to be the same person right? *Well, far be it for me to speculate but uh, what if they aren't the same person? *It is said in Episode II that a Jedi Master ordered this clone army. *So has Dooku already fallen by the Battle of Naboo? *Making Sidious forsee the loss of Darth Maul? *Perhaps the shocker which I am sure is to come in Episode 3, is Palpatine and Sidious are twins. *Maybe Palpatine is a clone of Sidious. Making him the first clone. *I mean someone had to know the Kaminoans were good at cloning right? *Maybe that's why Sidious sent Dooku there because Palpatine was such an excellent clone. The galaxy wouldn't say hey, look a Sith lord let's put him in office!!!! *I think he let's Palpatine do all the hard work and setting up for his rise to power. If I were evil and had access to technology I would do it like that.

[maddog62]

I use to think that Nick Noltie, Gary Busey, and Rutger Hower. were all the same guy. But I later found out the truth they are just clones.

[Handothrawn]

Stinky, I prefer the way Homer Simpson said it: "Maggie is just like Clark Kent, when there's lots of excitement, he's no where to be found."

Yes, that was pointless, but its funny.

Anyhoo...

How do we know Sifo-dyas really was the one who ordered the army, Palpatine/Sidious could have just sent an altered holo to the Kaminoans and ordered the army himself.

[maddog62]

Or he could have saved money and just told the he was Syfo-Dyas. How would they know?

[Jedi Master Shaft]

I had never thought about that before, but do you think that Darth Sidious could have met the real Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas after Episode One, could have manipulated his mind to make him order an army to the Kaminoans, and could have killed him just after that.

Sidious could have done that while he was turning Dooku to the Dark Side and sending him in the galaxy to find a clone template.

That way, Sifo-Dyas would have really ordered the army. And Sifo-Dyas would have really died after Episode One.
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[DblDwn]

When Obi-Wan is transmitting via hologram and informs Yoda and Mace that the clones were ordered by Master Sifo-Dyas, did anyone else notice the looks exchanged by Yoda and Mace? They seemed to be looks of bewilderment, like a kind of "That's what I was afraid of" or "Did he just say what I think he just said" and then after the transmission is complete that is when Mace suggests to Yoda that they inform the Senate that their ability to use the Force has diminished.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.......Sifo-Dyas is Sidious.

1) He ordered the Clone Army to which I can argue that if the clones were ordered by Sifo-Dyas and the clones are obviously a big part to Sidious' plans of Imperial Rule, then is it really that hard to believe that he would order the clones himself? And why order them as Sifo-Dyas and not Sidious? I suspect the main reason is that it will become known that the clones were ordered 10 years previous, long before the vote of a Grand Army of the Republic ever came up in the Senate, by a Jedi Master. By ordering them with his former Jedi name he can turn people against the Jedi when the clones begin their Imperial tasks since a Jedi ordered them in the first place (Hopefully this makes sense to everyone, I'm trying to type this out pretty quick)
2) He was believed to have died at around the same time as Sidious manipulated the TF into the blockade of Naboo which was the start of the downfall of the Republic (Exit the Jedi Order through Door #1 while at the same time introducing yourself as a Sith Lord while stepping out of Door #2).
3) Compare names here: Sidious/Sifo-Dyas.......they resemble each other and have a nice harmonious ring to them. Sidious/Palpatine............no simularity whatsoever. If Palpatine was going to become a Sith Lord he'd have a name like Darth Alpo, or Darth Ovaltine, or somthing along those lines.
4) Judging by what I said above about the hologram scene I think that Mace and Yoda suspected that Sifo-Dyas was not dead but they could not determine his whereabouts and what he was up to. You know why? Because Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and the Dark Side clouds everything.

I'll list more later. Right now I gotta go watch coverage of the PGA Championship.............Go Tiger.

[borgmatrix]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>By ordering them with his former Jedi name he can turn people against the Jedi when the clones begin their Imperial tasks since a Jedi ordered them in the first place (Hopefully this makes sense to everyone, I'm trying to type this out pretty quick)[/b][/quote]

It's possible that Sidious was once a Jedi named Sifo-dyas, but then who's Palpatine? *A clone? *That wouldn't make sense because, if he's a clone of Sifo-dyas, all the Jedi would recognize him immediately. *Same thing if he's a twin. *The Jedi aren't blind. *

And from a story perspective, why would any of this be needed? *Palpatine could easily be Sidious. *There's no problem with his deception there. *There's no need for twins or a clone to make this work. *

Also, that's not necessary if the reason is to put blame on the Jedi. *Dooku, the leader of the enemy forces, was a Jedi Master. *That's all Palpatine needs to turn the people against the Jedi. *

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>3) Compare names here: Sidious/Sifo-Dyas.......they resemble each other and have a nice harmonious ring to them. Sidious/Palpatine............no simularity whatsoever. If Palpatine was going to become a Sith Lord he'd have a name like Darth Alpo, or Darth Ovaltine, or somthing along those lines.[/b][/quote]

The name Vader has absolutely no similarity to Anakin or Skywalker. *Nor does the name Tyrannus have any resemblance to Dooku.

[Jedi Ulic]

"3) Compare names here: Sidious/Sifo-Dyas.......they resemble each other and have a nice harmonious ring to them. Sidious/Palpatine............no simularity whatsoever. If Palpatine was going to become a Sith Lord he'd have a name like Darth Alpo, or Darth Ovaltine, or somthing along those lines."

But Tyrannus and Dooku are not similar, neither are Vader and Skywalker. I think Sidious comes from the word "insidious" which means deadly and unseen.
I would think that Lucas needed a Jedi that Palpatine kills and uses his name to order the clone army. He decided to have this Jedi with a similar name to create confusion. There is no connection between the names Sifo-Dyas and Sidious. They are just red herrings.

[Jedi Ulic]

Oops, missed that borgmatrix had picked up on the Vader - Skywalker thing etc.
I must learn patience.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Jedi Ulic@Aug. 18 2002 - 04:27
Oops, missed that borgmatrix had picked up on the Vader - Skywalker thing etc.
I must learn patience.
Not a problem. I've done that myself on occassion.

[Mann]

I think that the name means nothing, but the fact that Sidious and Palpatine don't see eachother the entire time doesn't neccesarily mean they are the same person. I'm with Dbldwn in that the theory that they are the same is just too obvious and that there has to be something behind it. My guess would be that you don't see sidious' eyes which are probably like the eyes of the Emperor in RotJ. Come on, I mean if you don't see the eyes, you can who someone is. It's like cowboys who cover up there bottom face to hide their identities.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

This may be a little late, but I too noticed the looks exchanged by Yoda and Mace when the subject of Sifo-Dyas and a clone army came up.

But they also didn't tell Obi-Wan about their loss of power.
"Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see."

"I think its time we inform the senate that our ability to use the Force is diminished."

And then, Yoda said that if they told the senate, then their enemies would multiply. Could they be speaking about Palpatine?

[Kit]

Sidious and Palpetine are not the same. They don't even look the same. They are played by the same actor however. This is because Ian McDiarmond does a good job at being the evil Sith lord. But it is make-up that I think really does the role here. They look too different for me to believe they are the same. But they are probably related in some way. And Palpatine gives Sidious a role in his Empire. Or Sidious is training Palpatine. Always two there are, though... but the Dark Side clouds EVERYTHING.

Syfo Dyas is a mystery. There is too little of him mentioned to explain much of anything. I think, however, out of pure speculation, that Syfo Dyas is Sidious. Not because they sound the same, but because he was once a Jedi, and died/left the Order 10+ years ago.
But there could be a more startling explaination. Qui Gon is Syfo Dyas. He was once Dooku's apprentice, and thus has a lot of Dooku in him. He ordered the army to help the Republic gain more control and loose it's corruption. He did this with the help of his old master, Dooku/Tyrannus, who recruted Jango. They did this as two, a master and an apprentice. Qui Gon, could have been a secret dark lord, but not as active about it. "If you would only OBEY the CODE master, you'd be on the council."- Obi-Wan Kenobi

This is just one of my mad theories. You may now proceed to prove me wrong ;)

[Mann]

I think they mean Politicians in general are enemies. They probably have an idea that the Sith are controlling other Senators and that they don't want the word out that the Jedi can't see anything.

[Wild_Huntress]

These theories are really fascinating, but I'm still inclined to say that Palpy and Sidious are one and the same. Or maybe not. Now you guys have got me doubting that. About Sypho Dias (sp?) however. OK my guess is that Dooku's Sypho Dias or pretended to be him when he ordered the clone army. Just my guess, that.

[DblDwn]

See I can't buy into Dooku or Qui-Gon or Sidious or anyone else for that matter ordering the clones while claiming to be Sfo-Dyas. People in Star Wars movies don't use aliases. Even when Obi-Wan hides out he still keeps his real last name after all.

If it is told to Obi-Wan that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones then Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones. Unless of course I'm right and Sifo-Dyas is Sidious in which case it would still be Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones.

[Darth Whaler]

Didn't McCallum already confirm in an interview once that Sidious and Palpatine are the same?

I heard that Syfo-Dias was originally to be called Sydo-Dias but it was changed because it too closely resembled Sidious. To me that says GL and company thought "Sidious and Sydo-Dias are the same people but we better change it a little more so it's not THAT obvious."

Can anybody else shed some light on this?

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Aug. 18 2002 - 20:27
People in Star Wars movies don't use aliases. Even when Obi-Wan hides out he still keeps his real last name after all.
I don't know where you're getting this. There isn't any rule book that says what can and cannot be done in Star Wars. If the situation warrants something happening, we'll see it. There's no problem with someone using an alias or some other deception like that. And Obi-wan might have kept his last name, but he still used the name 'Ben'.

The Sith are all about deception, so they could easily do something like this. Dooku ordering the clones makes perfect sense. We know that he contacted Jango, so it fits well that he would also order the army. He is working for Sidious, so I don't see what the problem is. We know Sifo-dyas was a jedi master that is now dead, so if he himself didn't order it, then someone had to be posing as him. And that would be either Sidious or Dooku.

[LordTyranus]

Originally posted by maddog62@Aug. 17 2002 - 10:31
I use to think that Nick Noltie, Gary Busey, and Rutger Hower. were all the same guy. But I later found out the truth they are just clones.
LOL Okay now that is :censored: hillarious! I always thought that too! LOL, man I'm still laughing... :roll:

[LordTyranus]

Originally posted by borgmatrix+Aug. 19 2002 - 00:17--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(borgmatrix @ Aug. 19 2002 - 00:17)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DblDwn@Aug. 18 2002 - 20:27
People in Star Wars movies don't use aliases. Even when Obi-Wan hides out he still keeps his real last name after all.
I don't know where you're getting this. *There isn't any rule book that says what can and cannot be done in Star Wars. *If the situation warrants something happening, we'll see it. *There's no problem with someone using an alias or some other deception like that. *And Obi-wan might have kept his last name, but he still used the name 'Ben'.

The Sith are all about deception, so they could easily do something like this. *Dooku ordering the clones makes perfect sense. *We know that he contacted Jango, so it fits well that he would also order the army. *He is working for Sidious, so I don't see what the problem is. *We know Sifo-dyas was a jedi master that is now dead, so if he himself didn't order it, then someone had to be posing as him. *And that would be either Sidious or Dooku.[/b][/quote]
I completely agree, I think Dooku ordered the clones and altered the Jedi records, remember only a Jedi could do this, and we were informed many times that Dooku was a Jedi, who left the order 10 years ago(the same time the clones were ordered!), I mean Jango said Dooku hired him, I don't think the Syfo-Dias think is such a big mystery. Now I also believe Palpatine and Sidious are one in the same, now if they aren't I wouldn't be too surprised, but I truly think they are one and the same.

[maddog62]

You never see Rutger H. Gary B. or Nick N. in the same place, do you?

[Ferarri pit droid]

They are the same......according to starwars.com

In EP1 Sidious tels the Vice Roy

S: Start landing your troops

VR: Is that Legal

S: I will make it legal (in the senate)

Later in the film he says "I will make sure things stay the same in the senate")

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Ferarri pit droid@Aug. 19 2002 - 09:12
VR: Is that Legal

S: I will make it legal (in the senate)
Yes, that's right! I remembered the other line, about keeping things the same in the Senate, but I'd forgotten about this one. "I will make it legal." Yeah, that seems to make it pretty clear who Sidious is.

[jbird669]

Palpatine is Sidioius. Listen to the Audio Commentary from the TPM DVD. Lucas all but says it. Also, Ferrari Pit Droid and borg matrix hit it on the head. Those two lines alone are enough. Kit, interesting theories, but why would Lucas have two different characters played by the same person if they're not meant to be the same character?

[Jedi Master Shaft]

I don't believe there are still people who do not believe that Darth Sidious is the Chancellor Palpatine !

1. They are both played by Ian McDiarmid.
2. Darth Sidious has the same clothes Palpatine has in Jedi.
3. Count Dooku says to Master Kenobi in Clones that the Republic is controlled by a Sith Lord.
4. George Lucas says it in the audio commentary of Episode One. He says he wanted to introduce Sidious in Episode One the way he was introduced in Empire. ( via hologram )


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[Darth_Stinky]

I am pretty much convinced that Palps and Sidious are one in them same, but I still wouldn't bet my bottom dollar on it. It's too obvious to be what it seems I guess. I mean Sidious says "I will make it legal" but he could very well pull the strings of his brother or clone, Palpatine. The Emperor and Sidious are definetely the same person though. But Palps and Sididous that raises a few shrugs and question marks for me. Just imagine if you were a being of absolute evil and you just so happened to be the twin brother of the most powerful man in the galaxy who has a weak will of his own. What would you do?

[Wild_Huntress]

Get rid of him and step into his shoes in time for the next movie trilogy. But would GL really make the films THIS complicated? I mean look, he had loads of opportunities to muddle them up before but he didn't- did he?

[Mann]

Hold on, someone mentioned brother right? So if his last name is Palpatine, than his brother's last name is Palpatine. So in turn, we have the first set of twins in the star wars movies, Palpatine and Sidious, which means that Sidious will become Emperor Palpatine.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Mann@Aug. 19 2002 - 12:42
Hold on, someone mentioned brother right? So if his last name is Palpatine, than his brother's last name is Palpatine. So in turn, we have the first set of twins in the star wars movies, Palpatine and Sidious, which means that Sidious will become Emperor Palpatine.
But there's no need for a brother. Like Wild_Huntress has said, why the heck would Lucas want to make it this complicated. The idea of Palpatine being Sidious is dramatic. He's the Chancellor, the man everybody trusts, and yet he turns out to be Sidious, the Sith Lord that the Jedi have been fearing. He's been there right under their noses. If Lucas starts revealing there are twins, that Palpatine was the Jedi Sifo-dyas, and all this nonsense, it's going to strip away the dramatic potential. There's no need for any of this. Palpatine being Sidious is not only supported by what we've seen and heard in the movies, but it also works.

[Mann]

Trying to make Sifo-Dyas anybody is more complicated. He's a character no one knows about and is presumed dead. I think he did die. Palpatine is seen by the audience as a possilbe villian, but the character's don't know that. We want surprise. I want Palpatine to be a person who's strings are being pulled. I felt that the Senate scene in AotC seemed like he was being forced to speak the way he was.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Mann@Aug. 19 2002 - 12:56
I felt that the Senate scene in AotC seemed like he was being forced to speak the way he was.
You mean when he accepted the emergency powers?

[Mann]

yes, he looked like he was sad and didn't want to do it. It is even in the Star Wars script.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Mann@Aug. 19 2002 - 16:23
yes, he looked like he was sad and didn't want to do it. It is even in the Star Wars script.
Yeah, but he has to act that way. *He has no intention of ever giving up the power, but can't act like he wants it. *If he did, no one would trust him. *By showing reluctance and making it look like the idea originated from the others, the Senate feels fine about giving them to him. *He's the nice guy that only wants what best for the Republic. *Everyone notes that and trusts him because of it. *

And, of course, in episode III his true colors will be revealed. *Everyone fell for his deception and the Republic now belongs to him.

[Mann]

A big deception would be that Sidious was controlling the Chancellor right under the Republic's nose. I tthink that they could be brothers, since Palpatine is the last name of the Emperor.

[Justin]

Holy crap, how can you not know this is being discussed in a million other threads?

[DblDwn]

I may be right and I may be wrong.

Just consider me Oliver Stone regarding this subject.

[Kit]

If the force has mind tricks, then couldn't Sidious make it legal and keep things in the Senate the same from afar?

The 1 actor thing may just be because that's what we expect. *The guy did play Palpatine before, and he does a good job at being the villan, especially on that is mostly vocal. *And how many average movie goers actually know they're the same actor? *Afterall the same man who played Ki Adi Mundi played Nute Gunray.

Anyway, I think I'll side with Dbldwn on this; we may be right, we may be wrong.

But if this is ever going to get ugly, why don't we just compromise? *We'll say Palpatine has a multiple personality disorder. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif

[Jedi Ulic]

To watch these films we need to forget all about the OT. If we take the view that this is all new to us then Palpatine turning out to be Sidious would be a shock (although there are hints). I think those that think GL will try and make it even more shocking are expecting too much. When you take the OT into consideration it is very obvious that Chancellor = Sidous = Emperor. These prequels are all about Anakins fall but also Palpatine's rise to power. The way he is doing it by gradually getting more control without anyone realising that he is up to no good is excellent. Why would GL need to bring in clones or twins or anything. This all makes sense. I too find it strange that people still cannot accept that Palpatine is Sidious.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Jedi Ulic@Aug. 20 2002 - 08:23
If we take the view that this is all new to us then Palpatine turning out to be Sidious would be a shock (although there are hints).
Yeah, that's true. And we don't even need to forget about the OT, because it never actually mentions the name Palpatine. So strictly looking at the movies, all this is new to us. So as far as surprises go, Palpatine being Sidious would certainly quality. Again, ignoring everything but the movies, we've only seen subtle hints that the two are the same. So revealing Palpatine to be Sidious in epIII would be a surprise. And, like I've said many times, it fits perfectly with what we've seen and heard in the movies.

[Jedi Ulic]

Good point. The prequels are mainly the tale of Anakins fall but they also have other sub stories, Palpatine's rise being one of them.

[Darth Vegas]

It is absolutely obvious that they are the same person.

GL has said it many times, he even referred to Palps' in ESB as Darth Sidious, they are the same person.

This has never been an issue, they are the same, except it. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif

[DblDwn]

OK how about this:

Let's assume for a few moments that Palpatine is Sidious. We know that Palpatine was born on Naboo. We also know that Palpatine goes into politics. But let's look farther back than that.

When babies are born they don't have any feelings of anger, hate, fear, suffering, etc. because they are babies. You're all not going to start to accuse Palpatine of being a crack baby are you? When Palpatine is born he is not evil, nor is he plotting from birth to take over the Republic.

For Palpatine to become Sidious he has to have Force Powers, granted they are Dark Side of the Force Powers, but they didn't start out that way. As I said above babies don't have evil impulses and twisted desires so when Palpatine was born he would not have been born of the Dark Side but in order to become Sidious he would have to have Force Powers initially right?

My question is this..........When Palpatine is born with Force Powers on Naboo and is a child long before ever going into politics and becoming evil, how come the Jedi don't find him and train him to be one of their own? After all he has Force Powers and Qui-Gon said in TPM that the Jedi detect them when they are young so that they may be trained.

Based on that isn't it more likely that Palpatine has no Force Powers and he is merely just a politician? Whereas Sifo-Dyas, the former Jedi Master who ordered the Clone Army and was detected and trained as a Jedi, is really Sidious and 'faked' his death so that the Jedi would believe him to be dead while he systematically takes over the Republic?

Also, in the movies of the OT there is never a reference to the Emperor as anything more than "The Emperor", aside from Vader calling him "Master" and Luke calling him "Your Highness" of course. In the movies he is never refered to as Emperor Palpatine so it would not offset the OT to have the true identity of the Emperor be someone else.

[Kit]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Aug. 23 2002 - 08:18
It is absolutely obvious that they are the same person.

GL has said it many times, he even referred to Palps' in ESB as Darth Sidious, they are the same person.

This has never been an issue, they are the same, except it. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif
TK007,
This may just be my way of interpreting this because I've never heard GL say that they are the same-- I don't have the DVD. But, if Sidious and the Emperor from the old trilogy are the same, couldn't that mean that Chancelor Palpatine and the Emperor are not the same person.

[Martini]

yea it would be a big shock if they werent the same dude, but just think about it........GL isnt a complex man. he isnt gonna throw in that much of a twist and have to explain it later on. just too simple to look and realize that its the same guy. but actually, i know alot of people who like star wars and have seen the movies but arent addicts like us. and they were surprised that Anakin and Padme got married. and they still dont see that palpy and the emporer are the same guy

[Streen]

I brought this up during the Christmas of 99'. I think that if Palpy isn't Sidious, than Dooku will die by Ani's/Vader's hands. I say that because either Dooku or Sidous is going to die on Dagobah. However, it is more likely that they are the same.

We've already seen hints by Palpatine talking to Anakin.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Streen@Aug. 26 2002 - 17:05
We've already seen hints by Palpatine talking to Anakin.
So because Palpatine has spoken with Anakin he therefore must be Sidious?

Jar Jar has also spoken with Anakin maybe he is Sidious?

No I got it.........Watto is Sidious. It must be true because he has spoken with Anakin after all.

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by DblDwn+Aug. 27 2002 - 00:06--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DblDwn @ Aug. 27 2002 - 00:06)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Streen@Aug. 26 2002 - 17:0
We've already seen hints by Palpatine talking to Anakin.
So because Palpatine has spoken with Anakin he therefore must be Sidious?

Jar Jar has also spoken with Anakin maybe he is Sidious?

No I got it.........Watto is Sidious. It must be true because he has spoken with Anakin after all.[/b][/quote]
LOL

No. I'm sorry. I take that back. What I meant was:

ROFL

Good point. <!--emo&:)

But *what does Palpatine *say to Anakin? That's what's important.

Why would the Chancellor, a highly political figure, speak a line like "In time you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible"?

He's not *supposed to be a guru or anything; he's probably more like the President of the United States. He could/should have just said "Ya know, son... I think if you believe in yourself enough, you can be whatever you want." or something not quite as *ominous.

I'd also like to comment on your question about (the) Palpatine (twins), and why didn't the Jedi detect him (or them).

I think that the Sith Grand Design is simple: infiltrate the Republic, seize power, and destroy the hated Jedi.

This has been their goal for a millennia. So it is my view that, for a thousand years, they have taken to gradually obtaining positions of trust and respect within the Republic (and maybe even the Jedi Order itself).

I don't know what the details would be but maybe some highly placed official within the Republic (secretly a Dark Lord of the Sith, probably the apprentice, if the 'rule of two' has any bearing) came across this kid (Awwww... how cute. I just pictured Darth Sidious as a kid. How adorable! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif I bet he made Damien look like a wuss.) with 'Jedi powers'and decided not to tell the Jedi about him, but to corrupt his mind to the Dark Side and teach him to guard his feelings against Jedi detection.

Or, I'll give you this, he could have been a Member of the Jedi Order (secretly a Dark Lord of the Sith, probably the apprentice) and when he found the kid with the mega-high Mid count (I think he had a mega-high Mid count, anyway...), he didn't tell his jellow Fedi, but decided to begin training the lad to become his apprentice, and instructed him to keep his feelings buried.

That's all I got.

[Darth Vegas]

Think about this, the ornament on Sidious' robe is the same as Palpy's rom ROTJ.

Naboo Senators go by there first name, Senator Padme, Chancellor Palpatine, hhmmm. Actually it seems to me that Naboo Senators and Queens use a given Royal name while in office while still keeping their real name.*style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

Also, the same actor played "both" Sidious and Palpatine.

As far as I'm concerned the issue is closed, but I would love to be shocked when it's all revealed with both of them standing next to eachother, they could be clones. That would not be a problem.

But twin brothers? Come on that's just stupid.

If you want more evidence that they are the same person how 'bout Yoda's line "The dark side clouds EVERYTHING impossible to see the future is".

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Aug. 27 2002 - 04:09
1) Think about this, the ornament on Sidious' robe is the same as Palpy's rom ROTJ.

2) Naboo Senators go by there first name, Senator Padme, Chancellor Palpatine, hhmmm. Actually it seems to me that Naboo Senators and Queens use a given Royal name while in office while still keeping their real name.*style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

3) Also, the same actor played "both" Sidious and Palpatine.

4) As far as I'm concerned the issue is closed, but I would love to be shocked when it's all revealed with both of them standing next to eachother, they could be clones. That would not be a problem.

But twin brothers? Come on that's just stupid.

5) If you want more evidence that they are the same person how 'bout Yoda's line "The dark side clouds EVERYTHING impossible to see the future is".
1) It was never implied in any of the movies that the name of the Emperor was Emperor Palpatine so you really can't use that as an argument.

2)Actually she does go by Senator Amidala, remember that is what Captain Typho calls her at the very beginning, just as she went by Queen Amidala in TPM.

3) OK that answers everything then right? If this is your argument then I will take it a step farther. Jeremy Bulloch played Boba Fett in the OT and also filled in a scene as the Imperial Officer escorting Leia and the others through the Cloud City when Leia yells out to Luke that "it's a trap." So going by your theory then Boba Fett was really an Imperial Officer who got off on dressing like a Mandalorian Warrior and it must be true because Bulloch played "both" of them. Also Warwick Davis, who played Wicket in ROTJ, was sitting in Watto's box during the Pod Race in TPM. So that must have been Wicket before he started taking Rogaine then right? Ahmed Best and Anthony Daniels were in the bar that Anakin and Obi-Wan chase Zam into in AOTC. I guess Jar Jar is a Changling also because he can turn from a Gungan into an African-American male in no time and we won't even get into Daniels' ability to change from 3PO into a human cause that's just too kinky for even me.

4) I agree that the brother thing would be moronic. The clone thing would be cool, but I still like my idea better.

5) Way to copy me since I've said that in 2-3 different threads in the last few weeks. You're not going to get many points for originality on this one partner.

[Ken-OB]

Why don't the Jedi find Palpatine as a child and train him as a Jedi?
I think it's got something to do with Jinn's statement in TPM that "nothing happens by accident" or the like. The Force probably realizes that the Galaxy is out of wack with balance - so many Jedi and the other stuff the happened with the Sith long, long before TPM. Een though there's no such thing as "too much good" in the universe, perhaps the Force wanted to level things off a bit. Thus, the Force allows Palpatine to not be discoered by the Council for training. Then, he is trained as a Sith, slowly builds up power and policy, and takes over the galaxy. The Force knew this was going to happen, because that's all part of the prophecy, too, I'll bet. The Force comprehends that all this MUST happen in order for The Chosen One to appear and eventually exterminate may Jedi, then wipe out the Sith for good. It's all a elaborate plan to bring down usage of the Force to a small handful of managable people - Luke, Leia, etc...

Aw, heck. I dunno what I'm talking about. I'm lost now. somebody, please put me in my place ad shut me up.

[DblDwn]

After the TPM everyone, including myself, completely bought into the whole 'Palpatine is the Emperor' and 'Palpatine is Sidious' line of thinking because of little things that happened in the movie (Palpatine telling Anakin that they'll be watching his progress and the camera shot, during Qui-Gon's 'funeral', of Palpatine after Yoda and Mace discuss masters, apprentices, stock tips and whatever else). So going into AOTC all he and Jonathon Hales had to do while writing the movie was continue us on our merry way of thinking and lead us farther down the Palpatine is the most evil man in the galaxy path.

But they didn't. If they fully intended Palpatine to be Sidious all they would have had to do was have Lama Su tell Obi-Wan that either Tyrannus or Sidious (no Darth surname would have been necessary) ordered the clone army and that would have been the end of it. Then either when Jango tells Obi-Wan that he had been hired by Tyrannus, Obi-Wan, not knowing that Tyrannus was Dooku, would have had a nice little connection to his investigation. Or if Lama Su had told him that it was Sidious then when Dooku tells him that the Senate is under the control of Darth Sidious he would have put that together and they (the Jedi) could have been well on there way of finding out that Palpatine is Sidious in Episode III.

But again they didn't. They chose to introduce the name of an unknown, believed-to-be-dead, never before mentioned, former Jedi Master who was one of the heads of the Jedi Council named Sifo-Dyas. Why? What is the point of involving some unknown character we have never heard of at this point and then not even explain who he is, how he 'died', or anything at all about him in the rest of the movie?

You know why? Because Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and that will be revealed in Episode III.

I haven't seen TPM DVD commentary where Lucas talks about Palpatine and yada, yada, yada but that doesn't really mean anything. He has had time to change his mind on that subject and we all know that he does tend to change his mind about some things.

I'm not trying to shove this theory down any of your throats or anything but I feel that it is a very practical idea that very well could come true and not many people are actually taking the time to consider it as a possibility because most of you are still allowing yourselves to believe that Palpatine is Sidious and that is the end of it.

Think about it. It makes sense and also adds for a nice little surprise in Episode III.

[DblDwn]

Also when Mace suggests to Yoda that they inform the Senate of their diminished abilities to use the Force, Yoda responds with "Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness."

How would these Dark Lords of the Sith know that unless they used to be Jedi who felt their powers diminishing and chose the path to the Dark Side because it is more powerful anyway?

So let's see Dooku is a Dark Lord of the Sith and he used to be a Jedi. Therefore Sidious would have to have been a former Jedi as well which doesn't make him Palpatine the Politician it makes him Sifo-Dyas, one of the former heads of the Jedi Council who ordered the Clone Army because it fits into his master plan of taking over the Republic.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Aug. 28 2002 - 21:41
But again they didn't. They chose to introduce the name of an unknown, believed-to-be-dead, never before mentioned, former Jedi Master who was one of the heads of the Jedi Council named Sifo-Dyas. Why? What is the point of involving some unknown character we have never heard of at this point and then not even explain who he is, how he 'died', or anything at all about him in the rest of the movie?
Because the Sith don't want anyone on their trail. *If the Jedi found out that Tyrannus or Sidious ordered the army, they'd know immediately it wasn't one of them or anyone they knew. *The obvious assumption would be that these are the Sith Lords that the Jedi know are out there.

But by using the name Sifo-dyas, the path leads back to the Jedi, instead of to the Sith. *

The point isn't to explain Sifo-dyas. *It's to confuse the Jedi more and keep them off balance. *By the time they realize the Sith control the Republic, it'll be too late. *The Empire will be born.

[DblDwn]

If you are truly that naive to believe that they actually used the name Sifo-Dyas as deception then so be it.

If the name Sifo-Dyas doesn't mean anything, other than the deception you allow yourself to believe, then explain the glances exchanged by Yoda and Mace upon hearing the name Sifo-Dyas?

Keep in mind that Yoda is a CGI character and ALL facial expressions are put in for a reason.

[NIGHTTRAVELER]

DblDwn, I do like the ideas, and they are possible in the story.

BUT, we have all known for years upon years, that the man in the dark hood, Vaders boss, yada yada yada, was EMPEROR PALPATINE. The name has been attached to the character for so long. I know he is not refered to as PALPATINE in the films, but we have all gotten from lucas that he was former senator and everything else. I do agree that Lucas has had enough time to change his mind about thing between the PM DVD and now, but do you think he would change something that has been in place for years?

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

[DblDwn]

Thank you Nighttraveler

I respect the fact that you disagree but at least you put a valid reason for it.

These other people that use the "Ian McDiarmid played the Emperor in ROTJ and Palpatine now so they are the same person" are a joke to me since I slammed the door on that line of reasoning on the last page.

If anyone wants to disagree with me that is fine. Just base your reasons on something substantial, not these lame excuses that wouldn't even hold water in an elementary school playground.

[Darth Vegas]

Dbldwn, the credits for ROTJ say Ian Mcdiarmid as "Emporer Palpatine", that is all the proof we need.

Besides that, the whole plot of the PT is that Palpatine, whi is Darth Sidious, is posing as a politician, and subtely taking over the galaxy, and Anakin is the only one who can deystroy the Sith, but he'll end up serving Sidious, rather then deystroying him.

If GL said Darth Sidious is the same person as Palpatine, then their is no issue, it is solved.

Making them two different people would completely deystroy the plot, that would be an absolutely horrible thing to happen, it would deystroy TPM and AOTC, it is no going to happen.

Plot twist? More like plot flop. GL is not going to do something like that, there is absolutely no point to it, it deystroys the previous movies.

Why would the same actor play, two characters, who actually are the same person as GL said, only to turn out to be someone completely different. That Jeremy Bolluch thing you put Dbldwn does not back you up the slightest bit. Anthony Daniels played a Republic Spacer at the "Outlander Club" in AOTC, so what, 3P0 is just a man in a suit now? Come on. be realistic here, Palpatine is Sidious, and the PT is all about his plan to have revenge on the Jedi,

Come on, we're supposed to believe that Sidious is a seperate identinty, and Palpatine just happens to be a Dark Jedi that somehow happened to become Chancellor, and lead the Republic to its downfall all at the same time, and eventually will wear the exact same robe an ornament as Darth Sidious?
That would totally suck!!!!!!!!!

Maybe Sidious used a Clone, that's as far as I'll allow myself to ponder, but even then, I still doubt it.

GL said it, he is not going to change it. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth_Stinky]

Just because the credits say Ian McDiarmid is Emperor Palpatine that doesn't mean jack. What's that's saying in the purest of terms is that the Emperor goes by the name Palpatine, but y'know......that could be a last name. Chancellor Palpatine could be Bob Palpatine and Darth Sidious could Tom Palpatine. The truth is there is just not that much information on the Palpatine character for anyone to make a good opinion is hidden or not avaiable. I like the theory that the cloning process was tested first with Palpatine/ Sidious. Also Sifo-Dyas, well that's just odd. Bears a striking resemblance to Sidious doesn't it? So in Ep.III one of three things will happen, either Sidious is Palpatine, Palpatine is clone of Sidious, or they are twins. The Sith are masters of deception. So the one things we should be able to count on is that not everything is what it seems.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Aug. 29 2002 - 00:57
That Jeremy Bolluch thing you put Dbldwn does not back you up the slightest bit. Anthony Daniels played a Republic Spacer at the "Outlander Club" in AOTC, so what, 3P0 is just a man in a suit now?
It might not back me up in the slightest bit but that wasn't my intention for saying it. My intention was to prove that your explanation was nothing more than fantasy and I succeeded.

We'll see which of us is right in 2005. Maybe it's you and maybe it's me. The only difference is I know that I could except it either way and would be nothing more than humbled if I am wrong. Whereas I can tell by how you respond that you do not even possess the required maturity level to admit that you were wrong.

Just something to think about my friend.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Aug. 28 2002 - 22:46
Because the Sith don't want anyone on their trail. *If the Jedi found out that Tyrannus or Sidious ordered the army, they'd know immediately it wasn't one of them or anyone they knew. *The obvious assumption would be that these are the Sith Lords that the Jedi know are out there.
That makes no sense because Jango tells Obi-Wan that he was hired by Tyrannus on one of the moons of Bogden. At that point Obi-Wan knows that Tyrannus is involved. Now granted he doesn't know that Tyrannus is Dooku but once he follows Jango to Geonosis and they (The Jedi) see Jango with Dooku in the Arena then it isn't hard to put two and two together.

Plus Tyrannus (Dooku) tells Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious anyway. Granted he may be attempting to actually coerce Obi-Wan into joining him, like Vader to Luke in ESB, but still.........you have to have something better than that.

Once the Jedi figure out that Dooku is Tyrannus then it is pretty simple to comprehend that Tyrannus is the apprentice to Sidious since Dooku says that Sidious is the one in contol so what would have been the point of using Sifo-Dyas' name in the first place? They learn of Tyrannus and Sidious shortly after Obi-Wan is told of Sifo-Dyas anyway so the 'cover-up' that you are attempting to describe is meaningless to the story.

If what you claim is true then Obi-Wan should have been told that Sidious ordered the clones and then when Dooku mentions Sidious to Obi-Wan he figures, 'ok the Sith guy Sidious ordered the clones'. In your explanation that would not have necessarily revealed to the Jedi that Palpatine was Sidious.

It is now more likely like this: They know that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones. Tyrannus, whom they must suspect to be Dooku after AOTC, hired Jango as the host for the clones. Sidious is the Sith who is in charge. So they know that Sidious is the #1 and Tyannus/Dooku is the #2 with Sifo-Dyas being the odd man out. If only two there are then how would Sifo-Dyas fit into the fold unless he was Sidious? Remember that when Obi-Wan reports that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army he says to Yoda and Mace that, "I was under the impression he (Sifo-Dyas) was killed before that......" Does that not lead anyone else to believe that perhaps he simply vanished and the Jedi assumed he was dead?

In the novelization for AOTC, which pretty much has the same dialogue as the movie throughout and came out before the movie so I don't want to hear anyone say anything about the book not being of Lucas' word because the book is based on the script that Lucas and Hales wrote, there is an added line after Lama Su informs Obi-Wan that the host was, "A bounty hunter named Jango Fett." The line continues with, "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango himself." Now most of you will say that that means that Dooku acted as Sifo-Dyas when ordering the clones and revealed himself as Tyrannus upon hiring Jango. I look at it differently however. That leads me to believe that:

1) Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones
2) Tyrannus hired Jango
3) Sifo-Dyas didn't want a Jedi to be the source of the clones for two reasons that I can think of: he didn't want all of the clones to have Force powers because any one of the millions of clones could become a threat to him and his Empire and also that if he himself was the base for the clones then all of the clones would obviously look like him and his whole mysterious, "Phantom Menace" charade wouldn't work.
4) Sifo-Dyas picked out Jango and had Tyrannus hire him so that he would not have to. The fewer people that he encounters the better after all.

OK that's enough for now. Later on I will continue this course in "How to uncloud your mind and unlearn that which you have learned."

[Winston_Sith]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>That makes no sense because Jango tells Obi-Wan that he was hired by Tyrannus on one of the moons of Bogden. At that point Obi-Wan knows that Tyrannus is involved. Now granted he doesn't know that Tyrannus is Dooku but once he follows Jango to Geonosis and they (The Jedi) see Jango with Dooku in the Arena then it isn't hard to put two and two together.

Plus Tyrannus (Dooku) tells Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious anyway. Granted he may be attempting to actually coerce Obi-Wan into joining him, like Vader to Luke in ESB, but still.........you have to have something better than that.[/b][/quote]

Obi-Wan doesn't know that Sidious is Tyranus' Master, though, and he (Dooku) makes it seem like they are sworn enemies.

The Jedi could not be expected to put two and two togther, because they don't have all the pieces (still, we don't know all they know either).

Lets see the Jedi (or maybe just we) know (or assume):

1)The Clone Army, as reported by Lama Su, was ordered ten years ago (about the time TPM happened) by Master Sifo-Dyas, a leading member of the Jedi Council (at least at some point).
a) You talk about the glances Yoda and Windu exchange as Kenobi tells them what he has learned, and you're right, they look suspicious. But we don't know what they know about Sifo-Dyas.

2) Obi-Wan points out that Master Sifo-Dyas died 'before that.'
a) how long 'before that'?)

3) The Clone Army was created using a bounty hunter called Jango Fett.
a) in the book, it says that Sifo-Dyas still went with Fett for the Clones even at the Kaminoans suggestion that a Jedi would have been the perfect choice.

4) Jango Fett was hired by a man named Tyranus on the moons of Bogden (NOT Geonosis).

5) Upon the arrival of Obi-Wan Kenobi on Kamino, Jango Fett fled to Geonosis where Count Dooku (not necessarily 'Tyranus', as no one ever called him that, except Sidious himself at the very end) was.
a) A bounty hunter as good as Fett would have many clients; oh, and
b) just because Fett was working for Dooku, that doesn't necessarily have to mean that Fett would have told him all about this cloning thing the Kaminoans have going for the Republic.
b.i)I mean, he's probably into more and more bizarre crap than just this Republican Clone Army deal, so, can we assume that he knows how to be discrete when necessary?

6) Count Dooku tells Obi-Wan Kenobi of his version of the truth; a Dark Lord of the Sith - Darth Sidious - now controls hundreds of Senators within the Republic.
a) Ten years ago (here we go again) Sidious betrayed Nute Gunray and the Trade Federation - hence leading the Trade Federation to join the growing Separatist cause, once they met up with Count Dooku.

7) Later they learn that Count Dooku himself had gone over to the Dark Side; as demonstrated by his Force lightning and the red lightsaber.
a) But was he a 'Sith'? Sure, "only two there are...", but there are also 'Dark Jedi', and maybe even other members of the 'Lost 20' (such as Count Dooku) somewhere out there in the Universe, so they wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that Dooku is a Sith.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Aug. 28 2002 - 22:57
If you are truly that naive to believe that they actually used the name Sifo-Dyas as deception then so be it.

If the name Sifo-Dyas doesn't mean anything, other than the deception you allow yourself to believe, then explain the glances exchanged by Yoda and Mace upon hearing the name Sifo-Dyas?
Sifo-dyas was a fellow Jedi, and undoubtedly a friend to both Yoda and Mace. You don't think they're going to have a reaction when they hear he ordered an army behind their backs? More than that, from the conversation they had following their communication with Kenobi, it seemed clear that the exchanged look and their worry was over the fact that they saw none of this through the Force. Mace suggested that they tell the Senate of their weakness and that says it all. That was the source of the exchanged look and their worry. The growing strength of the Dark Side has taken away their ability to see the future and weakened them.

I try to be completely respectful and thoughtful in every post I make. You might disagree with me, but don't call me naive. I don't consider anything I post to be "lame" or "elementary school" like.

[DblDwn]

I was thinking this afternoon, it's nice not having to worry about going to work so I have the luxury to sit around and widdle the time away thinking about things (not always Star Wars so don't go there), and I thought of something.

If Palpatine was Sidious and Dooku is obviously Tyrannus and they wanted to mislead the Jedi by using the name of Sifo-Dyas upon ordering the clones, wouldn't it be much more beneficial to their cause to use the name of a Jedi who was still alive? How would they know that Sifo-Dyas was supposedly dead anyway? Do Sidious and Tyrannus go home, kick off their shoes, and watch MSNBC for news on recently deceased Jedi so that their plan can be set into motion? Would they not have been better off using the name of someone like Mace, or Plo Koon, or Ki-Adi? Wouldn't that have caused more of a disturbance within the Jedi Council if they had used Mace's name?

I mean imagine that Lama Su informs Obi-Wan that Jedi Master Mace Windu ordered the Clone Army. Obi-Wan then, after picking his jaw up off of the floor, reports to Yoda that he was told that Mace ordered the clones. Yoda then confronts Mace and Mace obviously denies it since it wasn't him. Yoda however cannot trust him because he now knows that it very well could be Mace who was the Master to Darth Maul's Apprentice. Mace could be using the Dark Side to "cloud everything" and he can no longer be trusted. It would also be perceived that Mace deleted the records of Kamino from the Jedi Library. Now with Mace, who is basically the head of the Jedi Order, not able to be trusted by the Jedi and for all intents and purposes out of the Order, that would leave only Yoda as the one true Jedi Master left and he makes Webster (early 80's American TV reference) look like Chewbacca. The two of them together could surely take out Yoda whereas Mace and Yoda may be difficult. Then with Mace in exile and Yoda defeated, as well as the army of clones, there truly would be no stopping Sidious. Does that not make more sense than using the name of some dead and forgotten Jedi that no one thinks twice about?

Also, it's not like there is some sort of Jedi Legal Team that would go out to Kamino and get all of the facts before some BS Jedi Tribunal would decide to throw Mace out of the Order. They aren't going to ask questions about what the person claiming to be Mace looked like. Meaning they aren't going to learn that it wasn't a 6'+ black guy when they should be looking for an elder hunched over white guy. This isn't Star Wars CSI you know.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Aug. 29 2002 - 15:14
Plus Tyrannus (Dooku) tells Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious anyway. Granted he may be attempting to actually coerce Obi-Wan into joining him, like Vader to Luke in ESB, but still.........you have to have something better than that.
Yes, Tyrannus does tell Obi-wan about Sidious. But do you really think Sidious told him to do that? Of course not. Sidious doesn't want the Jedi to trace things back to him. But clearly Dooku is trying to undermine him in some way and is purposely leaking information.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Aug. 29 2002 - 19:52
If Palpatine was Sidious and Dooku is obviously Tyrannus and they wanted to mislead the Jedi by using the name of Sifo-Dyas upon ordering the clones, wouldn't it be much more beneficial to their cause to use the name of a Jedi who was still alive?
I feel the opposite about that. With Sifo-dyas dead, he can't deny the charges. If no else comes forward (or no other evidence is found), the blame will end up falling on him. If Mace or someone else's name was used, all they'd have to do is deny it. The Jedi don't strike as the type to start distrusting each other. Mace, for instance, is a very highly placed Jedi, and if denied doing it, I have a hard time seeing anyone doubting him.

Ultimately, Sifo-dyas version of events would clear a lot of things up. But he's dead, leaving only other evidence to take the responsibility of ordering of the army off him. And that will obviously be hard to find. And an investigation into whether Sifo-dyas ordered it or not would presumably lead the Jedi on a trail away from the Sith.

[Darth Vegas]

We don't need any more information concerning this topic, if you think Palpatine and Sidious are two different people, then you obviously do not understand the plot of the PT.

All we need is GL's word, he said they are the same person, and that should settle it. *:eek: *??? *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/satisfied.gif

However I have a sneaking suspicsion that Sidious is also Sifo-Dyas, all explain that THEORY later.

[bcamareno]

Read Episode I the novel and you'll see that Palpatine is at Qui-Gon's funeral Pyre, while Sidious is mourning the loss of Darth Maul overlooking the Coruscant cityscape. It is not expressly stated but it certainly is implied. The Sith does control the Senate, but through Palpatine. Sidious, who in my belief has the ability to shape-shift which explains why he chooses to looks like Palpatine, but which would also explain why he looks so different in Episode V.

The Role Playing Game and all other reference guides, including the OFFICIAL WEBSITE, lists them as different height, weight!!!!!

The question becomes if Palpatine is not Sidious then who is?

If he can shape-shift, much like Zam Wessel, then who could he or she really be? I think Shmi Skywalker, who is a Skywalker
(and we all know that the force runs strong in the Skywalker family) is really a SithWitch. The Rule of 2 says nothing about a SithWitch. How could she not know how Anakin was conceived?

Or Sidious could be Qui-Gon! When it is revealed that Qui-Gon is, in fact, Sidious then the Jedi Code could state that any act of betrayal to the Order results in your name being forgotten from the Order. This explains why Ben makes no mention to Luke about Qui-Gon in the OT.

Qui-Gon has always rebelled against the Council, he pushed for the training of Anakin when everyone saw "that the boy is dangerous."

The Ep.I novel makes mention that Qui-Gon had been to Tatooine once before (perhaps just in time to implant or inseminate Shmi?)

In Ep II novel, Darth Tyrannous says to Obi-Wan to not be so sure that Qui-Gon would not have helped Tyrannus' cause.

there are other clues, too many to mention here!!! See ya!!!

Long live the SITHWITCH who bore us all!!!!!!!
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif

[Martini]

dont go by what the novels say. sure its what GL wrote, but forget it. only thing that truely matters is what the audience sees on the big screen

[Darth Vegas]

Actually I have read that, and it is not Coruscant he is overlooking, it is Naboo, I sent a letter through the fan club, and that is what my reply was.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Aug. 30 2002 - 00:37
We don't need any more information concerning this topic, if you think Palpatine and Sidious are two different people, then you obviously do not understand the plot of the PT.
I'll tell you one thing bro, you better pray all day-every day to God, Allah, Buddah, your Voodoo Doll, or whatever other religion you may belong to, that you are right about Palpatine being Sidious because if I am right and you are wrong you will not want to be around this site come late May 2005. I'm not the type of person to rub anything in someone's face or gloat about victory unless they deserve it and you know what my friend, for all of the smack you have been talking about me not understanding the PT and the fact that you went so far as to call me a dumbass in another thread, you deserve it.

Karma is coming for you

[Darth Vegas]

I am 100% confident, but I really don't care what people I do not even know think about me.

So if I'm wrong I'm wrong, but if I am wrong, GL better be prepared to deal with alot of angry fans with plastic lightsabers. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

I did call you a dumbass, but then I edited it.

I will admit, it is funny to see you guys actually get mad when people you don't even know put you down. That sorta thing does not bother me the least, but when some one I know does it..............

[Martini]

Agent Bond, he wrote that in the book so you THINK its happening at the same time. but it probably differed by a couple hours or so. its just so he doesnt spoil any surprises or other stuff that might or might not happen. thats one of the biggest surprises in this trilogy is that we'll find out in 2005 that anakin turns into a Sith and Palpatine is Darth Sidious. yea we already know these facts but when you watch the movies from 1-6, they will be shockers. god these movies are so good

[jangofett100]

I think they're both the same person. It gets too complicated if they're not.

[Darth_Stinky]

Complicated? From ANH until the end of ESB we all thought that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were two seperate people. GL has made it very clear of the parallels between Anakin's Trilogy and Luke's Trilogy. Somewhere there has to be a real startling revelation and what better one than this?

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Darth_Stinky@Aug. 31 2002 - 13:35
Complicated? *From ANH until the end of ESB we all thought that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were two seperate people. *
And there's nothing complicated about that. *That would be like Sidious being revealed to be Palpatine (similar to Vader being revealed to be Anakin), which is something most of us here believe. *We didn't have Vader being a clone of Anakin or a twin brother of Anakin who he killed or any other un-needed complexity like what's being suggested here. *It was simple. *Vader was Anakin, just like epIII will show Sidious was Palpatine. *Like you said, Lucas likes parallels.

[Darth_Stinky]

Yeah, but we never knew what Anakin looked like before, he wasn't stalking around. To me it's just too simple, I mean what's the shock in that? Well I mean there's shock but it's just not that fun when you know who's who by the first two films. GL is making it really simple just too simple for my tastes.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Darth_Stinky@Aug. 31 2002 - 23:55
Yeah, but we never knew what Anakin looked like before, he wasn't stalking around. *To me it's just too simple, I mean what's the shock in that? *
Why is shock needed? To me, the original trilogy greatness had nothing to do with shock value, but with great storytelling. We don't need a shocking surprise in epIII.

[Justin]

go vote in my "Sidious/Palpatine" poll

Do you think Palpatine is Darth Sidious? (http://www.galacticsenate.com/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=16;t=1601;hl=new)

[Martini]

Alright i just wanted to say one last thing on this stupid stupid topic, OF COURSE HE'S THE SAME GUY!!!!

think about it, how gay would that be to use the same actor for both parts?!!? sooo pathetic!!! this will be a surprise for those in later years who watch the two trilogies from episodes 1-6, so it will be a great surprise. but come on people, course he's the same man

[Isomorph]

You all are reading to much into this stuff Palpy and Sidious are one in the same its been proven already GL has stated this time and time again.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Martini@Sep 9 2002, 01:31 PM
Alright i just wanted to say one last thing on this stupid stupid topic, OF COURSE HE'S THE SAME GUY!!!!

think about it, how gay would that be to use the same actor for both parts?!!? sooo pathetic!!!
You don't know that. You assume too much my friend.

As far as it being gay to have the same actor play two seperate parts, it happens all the time. It would be completely fine with me if McDiarmid turned out to be playing two completely different characters.

An example of it being gay when two actors played different parts would be something like Maude Adams in James Bond. In The Man With the Golden Gun she plays the classic chick that Bond nails and then later is killed because she fell for 007 and tried to betray the villain, then in Octopussy she plays Octopussy. That is gay to have the same actor play different characters in the same movie series when one of them died previously and then they come back to portray someone else.

It would be excellent deception on Lucas' part to cast McDiarmid as the Emperor in ROTJ and then come back and re-cast him as Palpatine AND Sidious in the PT. That way everybody assumes that they are all the same character because he plays all 3. Lucas is using the Dark Side to cloud your minds and you are completely allowing him to do it.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Sep 11 2002, 02:07 PM
It would be excellent deception on Lucas' part to cast McDiarmid as the Emperor in ROTJ and then come back and re-cast him as Palpatine AND Sidious in the PT. That way everybody assumes that they are all the same character because he plays all 3. Lucas is using the Dark Side to cloud your minds and you are completely allowing him to do it.
This isn't just about deceptions, shocks, and surprises, but about strong storytelling. Palpatine being Sidious would be far more dramatic. You could be right, but in all likelihood, it's you that's being clouded by the Dark Side.

[Isomorph]

Thanx BorgMatrix like I said before you people are reading way to much into this it would be more dramatic to have Palpy and Sidious one in the same.Trust me when I say this they are the same person Palpatine was the perfect actor in the Senate appearing to put the republic first on his agenda he took advantage of the corruption in the Senate,then made himself Emperor,and you people wonder how the Jedi didn't sense Palpatine was evil is the same way you all think Palpatine and Sidious are two diffrent people you are allowing the rug to be pulled over your eyes,now you understand how easy it was for the Emperor to gain and seize power and rid himself of the jedi.

[darthwicker]

Going back to something jbird669 and JediMasterShaft said on page 1 of this thread about in TPM audio commentary, George Lucas talks about how we are introduced to Darth Sidious via a hologram just like his first introduction to us in TESB, one of Lucas' many little theme games.
It is not long after seeing Sidious for the first time we are then introduced to Palpatine also via a hologram. I just happen to find this interesting.
Another thing I also find curious about these two hologram images is that they are both facing away from each other. Sidious is facing the left taking to Nute Gunray and Palpatine is facing the right talking to the Queen. It's as if these two hologram introductions are there at the start for us to see the two sides of the same person.
George Lucas also refers to Darth Sidious as ' the puppet master in all these movies'.
Does ' these' mean all 6 movies?
I dunno....
but I can't wait to find out.

[Isomorph]

GL did say all the major players are nothing but pawns in Darth Sidious rise to power,so you could say he is the great puppet master.

[Jacen Solo]

Go watch Episode I (as I did last night) and listen to some of the lines Darth Sidious uses to describe the Queen.

"Queen Amidala is young and naive."

"She's more foolish than I thought."

"This is an odd move for the Queen."

What I'm saying is that Darth Sidious is talking about Queen Amidala as though he knows her personally. Yet Padme (or Sabe) never makes any mention of a "Darth Sidious," only a "Senator Palpatine."

Palpatine and Sidious are one in the same.

[Isomorph]

I agree with your statement.

[DblDwn]

bump

[Darth Fabulous]

Originally posted by Luuke_Skywalker@Sep 15 2002, 03:31 PM
Go watch Episode I (as I did last night) and listen to some of the lines Darth Sidious uses to describe the Queen.

"Queen Amidala is young and naive."

"She's more foolish than I thought."

"This is an odd move for the Queen."

What I'm saying is that Darth Sidious is talking about Queen Amidala as though he knows her personally. Yet Padme (or Sabe) never makes any mention of a "Darth Sidious," only a "Senator Palpatine."

Palpatine and Sidious are one in the same.
If Palpatine was working with Sidious it is logical that the two would brief each other from time to time, especially before a major operation like the Trade Federation blockade. That way Sidious would have an idea of how Padmé would behave from Palpatine who knew her personally. Padmé and Sabé never mention Sidious because the first time his name is mentioned to anyone in the Republic is to Obi Wan at the end of AOTC.

[Jedi D'oh]

I also think that's how it's meant to be, sort of a double life type of thing. For a Sith wanting to take over the Galaxy, what better way than to infiltrate the senate, get voted in chancellor, then have a CGI moron give you the emergency powers to create and army then subjugate the universe.

[Darth Fabulous]

Better yet, why do all the political stuff yourself when you can send your non-Force-using clone to do it for you.

[Jedi D'oh]

That is possible, but as the Sith have wanted to destroy the Jedi and rule for so long, obviously all out war against them won't work. So he sorta goes undercover and takes it that way.

The non-force-having clone is possible, but a clone is a clone, meaning a copy of the original which would have all the same qualities.

[Darth Fabulous]

Not necessarily, a clone is genetically the same, giving the clone the same appearance and genetic predispositions. However, it is life experiences that shape personality and dictates how much of that genetic potential is realized. If the clone ages at a normal rate, perhaps Sidious raises it as a son, teaching it hatred for the Jedi. What's more undercover than directing the actions of a clone that has no chance of being discovered as a Sith because it has no Force ability?

[Jedi D'oh]

He (the clone) would still have the ability of the force even if never trained in it. Anakin was sensed to be a jedi by Qui-gon, so the council would maybe have detected that Palply was force sensitive, even if he never used it.

[Darth Fabulous]

Why would a clone have the same medi-chlorian count? It's the DNA that is cloned, not each individual cell along with it's medi-chlorians. Perhaps medi-chlorians cannot be cloned themselves. If they could why not implant cloned medi-chlorians in clonetroopers?

[Jedi D'oh]

But the DNA is the make up of that person. It tells all about you and maps what you have. Jango was not force sensitive, therefore no midi-clones.

Your point is well taken though.

[Darth Fabulous]

I could go into exactly how cloning works, but I will just say that the Kaminoans altered the tempermant of Jango's clones, so they could probably lower medi-chlorian counts.

[Frendon]

Hey, can i join? i want to state my point of view:

Why would GL do that Palpatine-Clone thing? He doesn't have to. It's not necessay for the story and if you are going to say:just to impress us we won't be expecting that or is a "plot-twist"... no, i wouldn't be impressed by that, i would hate it. It is way cooler to know that sidious/palpatine was in front of all the jedi all the time and they didn't know it and it goes better with the OT "do not understimate the powers of the emperor"... He was so powerful that he clouded the jedi's vision, and it wouldn't be a plot-twist because it doesn't change anything, Vader being luke's father is a plot-twist nobody expected that and it changed a lot on how the story was going to be from that point. Palpatine being a clone means nothing sidious takes his place end of the story, it's not necessary for the story and it doesn't change anything.

[Darth Fabulous]

George Lucas doesn't have to do anything, including making Episode III at all. Never said it was necessary to the story, just said I thought it could and might happen. In my opinion it's an interesting posibility that I wouldn't mind seeing happen and it makes perfect sense to me and a few other people around here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>It is way cooler to know that sidious/palpatine was in front of all the jedi all the time and they didn't know it and it goes better with the OT "do not understimate the powers of the emperor"... He was so powerful that he clouded the jedi's vision, and it wouldn't be a plot-twist because it doesn't change anything, Vader being luke's father is a plot-twist nobody expected that and it changed a lot on how the story was going to be from that point. Palpatine being a clone means nothing sidious takes his place end of the story, it's not necessary for the story and it doesn't change anything. [/b][/quote]

You're one of those PT sucks and undermines the OT guys aren't you?

[Darth Fabulous]

BTW I'm open to either possibility happening. Either way it's still Star Wars to me and I am just happy to have it. Frendon, I would hate to be around to see the complete disappointment on your face if Palpatine and Sidious are different people.

[DblDwn]

And then once his plan is realized he steps in for the clone. That way he would still be Emperor Palpatine in the OT because everyone would assume it is the same person since they look the same.

[Frendon]

First of all i'm not "one of those PT sucks and undermines the OT guys" the OT is way better no doubt about that, but i like the PT also, my point i:, why do it? the story functions a lot better if palpatine is sidious.

BTW i'm not trying to get on a personal confrontation with you, just stating my points of views in a MATURE and not insulting way style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif .

[Frendon]

Originally posted by Darth Fabulous@Nov 7 2002, 10:58 PM
Frendon, I would hate to be around to see the complete disappointment on your face if Palpatine and Sidious are different people.
I doubt I would be completely dissapointed because is not important to the story so it doesn't mean anything at all.

[DblDwn]

What if it was done so it fits perfectly in with the story and also helping to clear up a few other questions in the process of doing so? Would you still be disappointed if it happened?

[Darth Fabulous]

Is the "mature" in caps was an attack at my maturity? I'm not trying to attack you personally either, just asking personal questions. I apologize if you took it that way. I do, however, find it disturbing when someone who calls his or herself a Star Wars fan states that they would hate a particular possible outcome for Episode III. "The story functions a lot better if palpatine is sidious." Well that's your opinion, and I'm not here to discuss an opinion, yours and mine are different and likely not to change. I respect yours. I am trying to present a possibility and discuss it's likelyhood/possiblility, it's really irrelevant that you don't like it.

[Frendon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Is the "mature" in caps was an attack at my maturity?[/b][/quote] No, it was not, as i said in my post i don't get into personal confrontations with anybody we are not here for that, and if i hate something in a starwars movie it doesn't mean i'm less fan than anybody else, i hate chewbacca's tarzan shout in ROTJ, i hate the 3po/battledroid thing in aotc i hate a lot of things in SW but i love more things that is why i consider myself a starwars fan.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What if it was done so it fits perfectly in with the story and also helping to clear up a few other questions in the process of doing so? Would you still be disappointed if it happened?[/b][/quote]
I said it before i WOULDN'T be dissapointed, but i would prefer if it didn't happened. What questions could it help to clear up?

[Darth Fabulous]

Like I said before, whether anyone wants to see it or not doesn't really matter. No offense to anyone, but an opinion doesn't mean anything to anyone other than the person who formed it. Please, prove me wrong, prove it can't possibly happen if you can, or at least convince me that it is highly unlikely. I already admit that I cannot prove it will for certain happen, only that it may be more likely than you or anyone else may have thought before this thread began. Now I am not attacking anyone now, I thought I should say that explicitly to avoid further confusion and confrontation. I am, however, challenging anyone who disagrees with me to prove me wrong.

[Frendon]

The thing is that there is no way on earth that you can be proved that it won't happen but that doesn't mean anything, you can't prove that we won't see Lando Calrissian as a baby but that doesn't mean it will happen either.

[Darth Fabulous]

Read more carefully, I said in my last post I can't prove it will. I said I want to discuss the theory's likelyhood, using the other five films as evidence to support either side.

[Frendon]

And you also said that you changelled anyone to try to prove it can't possibly happen, that's impossible.

[Darth Fabulous]

Originally posted by Darth Fabulous@Nov 7 2002, 11:26 PM
Please, prove me wrong, prove it can't possibly happen if you can, or at least convince me that it is highly unlikely.
I'm not a big fan of quoting myself, but it seems necessary.

[Darth Fabulous]

I'm an open-minded person, it's quite possible to convince me that you are most likely right.

[Frendon]

Once again, that cannot be done. The same goes for the Mon Mothma/Padme theory.

[Frendon]

OK let me try:
what proof do we have of them being the same person?
* The final shot at the end of TPM when Yoda and Mace talk about which sith has being killed and the camera goes directly to Palpatine's face.
* In The TPM dvd commentary GL says they are the same person.
* Sidious constantly talks about having things controlled in the senate, you can say: yes, because he has his clone there, so let's forget that point.
* His relationship with anakin, and how he tries to convince him that he has or will become even more powerful than yoda.

Now you tell me what proof you have of Palpatine being a clone of sidious and let's discuss it.

[James T. Skywalker]

I wanna say one thing to this thread:

As a moderator at the Official Site's Message Forums, I read comments by the site administrator, Pablo Hidalgo, who is also in charge of the Databank section of sw.com. Hidalgo has often joked to us that starting next summer, he's going to be changing the heights of Palpatine and Sidious in the Databanks little by little (since they are a little incongruous) until they meet in the middle and are, as a result, the same height.

Fiendishly devilish by ph, but he has that kind of inside information. And he's said repeatedly, as a LFL rep (as have Lucas and McCallum, anyway) that Palp and Sidious are the same person.

~JTS

[Darth Fabulous]

Look, if you want to continue to discuss how to use scientific reasoning to prove a hypothesis via private messages, I'll endulge you. If you don't have anything else to add to this thread other than that you disagree with the theory, then I suggest there are other threads where your time will be better spent. If you have facts or evidence which suggests you may have a stronger case, present it. That's why I came to this thread, to present facts not yet mentioned to make the theory stronger.

[Darth Fabulous]

I see you have some, good.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>* The final shot at the end of TPM when Yoda and Mace talk about which sith has being killed and the camera goes directly to Palpatine's face.[/b][/quote]

Could be Lucas throwing us off his mother of all plot twists, could mean anything. Surely not explicit evidence but I will chalk that one up on your side.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>* In The TPM dvd commentary GL says they are the same person.[/b][/quote]

Lucas says a lot of things, and changes his mind more often than he changes his underwear. Draw.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>* Sidious constantly talks about having things controlled in the senate, you can say: yes, because he has his clone there, so let's forget that point.[/b][/quote]

Agreed, draw.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>* His relationship with anakin, and how he tries to convince him that he has or will become even more powerful than yoda.[/b][/quote]

Sidious could have easily told him that. If I am right then Sidious could have told Palpatine that, so I would say that one's a draw too.

So about all I see is your first point that weakly supports you. I'll also give you the Emporer being named Palpatine even though you didn't mention it.

[Darth Fabulous]

Originally posted by JamesTSkywalker@Nov 7 2002, 11:53 PM
I wanna say one thing to this thread:

As a moderator at the Official Site's Message Forums, I read comments by the site administrator, Pablo Hidalgo, who is also in charge of the Databank section of sw.com. Hidalgo has often joked to us that starting next summer, he's going to be changing the heights of Palpatine and Sidious in the Databanks little by little (since they are a little incongruous) until they meet in the middle and are, as a result, the same height.

Fiendishly devilish by ph, but he has that kind of inside information. And he's said repeatedly, as a LFL rep (as have Lucas and McCallum, anyway) that Palp and Sidious are the same person.

~JTS
Me and my roommate are the same height, and we aren't the same person last time I checked.

[Darth Fabulous]

Palpatine is the Supreme Chancelor of the Republic, controlling thousands and thousands of systems. How do you think he manages to sneak away to send a holographic message to Maul, Tyrannus, or the Trade Federation? In the US the President doesn't sneeze without the Secret Service knowing about it. Do you think a technologically advanced society like the Republic would lose track of it's leader long enough for him to record, encode, and transmit a message without anyone else knowing?

[Frendon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Sidious could have easily told him that. If I am right then Sidious could have told Palpatine that, so I would say that one's a draw too.[/b][/quote]

OK so you mean Sidious told his clone to start a relationship with anakin, and the clone get's very close to anakin. Then sidious enters the scene, he takes over and anakin just follows him even he doesn't have an idea who this guy is, you can say ohh but he thought it was the same old palpy, wouldn't he notice that he isn't?

Anakin: Palpy remember that time in the old republic when we went to that restaurant...
Sidious: Ohh yes burger king..
Anakin: what? we never went to burger king that can't even be considered to be a restaurant!!

GL puts scenes as the one with anakin and palpatine to show us how their relationship was growing, also the scene where anakin defends palpatine from obiwan's statements is there for the same purpose.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Darth Fabulous@Nov 7 2002, 10:14 PM
Palpatine is the Supreme Chancelor of the Republic, controlling thousands and thousands of systems. How do you think he manages to sneak away to send a holographic message to Maul, Tyrannus, or the Trade Federation? In the US the President doesn't sneeze without the Secret Service knowing about it. Do you think a technologically advanced society like the Republic would lose track of it's leader long enough for him to record, encode, and transmit a message without anyone else knowing?
That's one point for the believers I would say.

[Darth Fabulous]

Simple, Palpatine earns Anakin's trust, tells him there is a guy named Sidious that can complete his training. I never said they tried to switch places to fool Anakin into believing they are the same person. They don't look the same after all, Anakin just gets refered to Sidious by Palpatine. I have a nice piece of fan fiction I am working on that fits it all together nicely, I'll probably post it during winter break.

[Frendon]

QUOTE (Darth Fabulous @ Nov 8 2002, 12:14 AM)
Palpatine is the Supreme Chancelor of the Republic, controlling thousands and thousands of systems. How do you think he manages to sneak away to send a holographic message to Maul, Tyrannus, or the Trade Federation? In the US the President doesn't sneeze without the Secret Service knowing about it. Do you think a technologically advanced society like the Republic would lose track of it's leader long enough for him to record, encode, and transmit a message without anyone else knowing?

He is a Sith,
Palpatine: you will leave me alone for 3 hours and you won't tell anybody
Guards: We will leave you alone for 3 hours and we won't tell anybody....

And if he were a clone he would have to communicate with sidious anyway.

[Darth Fabulous]

Don't you think someone might notice that all the guards that are supposed to protect the Supreme Chancelor's life are wondering around in a daze with the Chancelor no where to be seen. That would make me wonder a little, enough to place some listening devices anyway.

[Frendon]

Originally posted by Darth Fabulous@Nov 8 2002, 12:28 AM
They don't look the same after all
uh style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif , the same actor plays both characters and if they don't look the same then how can palpatine be a clone of sidious?

[Frendon]

Originally posted by Darth Fabulous@Nov 8 2002, 12:31 AM
Don't you think someone might notice that all the guards that are supposed to protect the Supreme Chancelor's life are wondering around in a daze with the Chancelor no where to be seen. That would make me wonder a little, enough to place some listening devices anyway.
They could be in the same room as far as we know, he is a sith if he can cloud the jedi's vision is easy to manipulate some weak minded guards.

[Darth Fabulous]

Not really. I would imagine Sidious, who is planning the ultimate revenge for the Sith mind you, would hash out the plan pretty well with his clone before sending him off to play polititian.

[DblDwn]

You know in the novel for AOTC, which is canon because Salvatore wrote it based on info provided by Lucas, when Lama Su is telling Obi-Wan about Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones he tells him that he had suggested that Sifo-Dyas clone a Jedi. He obviously chose otherwise and settled for Jango. My point is that could be eluding to the fact that, if he had chosen to clone a Jedi (himself?) that or those clone(s) would have Force powers as well based on the host.

That being said perhaps the "Clone known as Palpatine" would also have Force powers which would be clouded from the Jedi but would help to explain both Yoda's suspicion in Palpatine's office at the beginning of AOTC and also how Palpatine and Sidious could communicate to each other. Why use hologram or risk meeting when you can use good 'ol ESP which would be clouded from the Jedi anyway? That way they could communicate in silence and not worry about anyone finding out.

[Frendon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Not really. I would imagine Sidious, who is planning the ultimate revenge for the Sith mind you, would hash out the plan pretty well with his clone before sending him off to play polititian. [/b][/quote]
I don't know which post ae you referring to.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>You know in the novel for AOTC, which is canon because Salvatore wrote it based on info provided by Lucas, when Lama Su is telling Obi-Wan about Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones he tells him that he had suggested that Sifo-Dyas clone a Jedi. He obviously chose otherwise and settled for Jango. My point is that could be eluding to the fact that, if he had chosen to clone a Jedi (himself?) that or those clone(s) would have Force powers as well based on the host.

That being said perhaps the "Clone known as Palpatine" would also have Force powers which would be clouded from the Jedi but would help to explain both Yoda's suspicion in Palpatine's office at the beginning of AOTC and also how Palpatine and Sidious could communicate to each other. Why use hologram or risk meeting when you can use good 'ol ESP which would be clouded from the Jedi anyway? That way they could communicate in silence and not worry about anyone finding out. [/b][/quote]

So then Owen IS obiwan's brother because that is in the ROTJ novel, besides if the clone has force powers and the jedi can't detect him then what is the purpose of having the clone in the first place, why wouldn't sidious do his stuff himself.

[Darth Fabulous]

Originally posted by Frendon@Nov 8 2002, 12:45 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Not really. I would imagine Sidious, who is planning the ultimate revenge for the Sith mind you, would hash out the plan pretty well with his clone before sending him off to play polititian.
I don't know which post ae you referring to.
[/b][/quote]
The one in which you said Palpatine and Sidious would have to communicate.

[Darth Fabulous]

And no, I don't think they look alike, but that's my opinion. However, if Palpatine is a clone he would be younger which would support them looking at least a little different. Maybe Anakin will even say, "Gee whiz, you two look a lot alike, except that one of you is older and more wrinkly...eww."

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Frendon@Nov 7 2002, 10:45 PM
So then Owen IS obiwan's brother because that is in the ROTJ novel, besides if the clone has force powers and the jedi can't detect him then what is the purpose of having the clone in the first place, why wouldn't sidious do his stuff himself.
There's an obvious difference between a book written 20 years ago and a book written 6 months ago.

Time constraints. He is still only one person so there is no way he could commit to ALL of the duties required of a politcian and still have time to train Darth Maul while at the same time ordering clone armies and updating Dooku on the finer points of Galactic Takeovers.

[Frendon]

They won't communicate in 10 and more years.. right.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And no, I don't think they look alike, but that's my opinion.[/b][/quote]
Well that's not something we to argue about, they look alike, they are the same actor.

[Darth Fabulous]

He's younger. I think I might have said that. Will you look the same now as you will in 20 years. How about 50?

Eddie Murphy played like eight people in the Nutty Professor, none of them looked exactly alike. It's called make-up.

[Darth Fabulous]

Ok, lets drop that then.

Why would he need to communicate at all. He is the Sith Master, he can foresee most of what will unfold. All he had to do was tell Palpatine the grand scheme and trust his clone to follow directions.

[Frendon]

I don't think we saw enough of him in AOTC to compare each other, but they looked the same in TPM and if they were the same age, then they would both age the same way until AOTC.

[Darth Fabulous]

Exactly why are they the same age? That would mean Sidious was cloned at birth.

[Frendon]

To check how things are going... to know how much the plan has progressed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Exactly why are they the same age? That would mean Sidious was cloned at birth. [/b][/quote]
Or just that they are the same person....

[Darth Fabulous]

Sidious doesn't need to check in, he can sense the events as they happen.

[Frendon]

After all this questions and answers i'm still where i started: why make it that complicated when the simple Sidious and Palpatine are the same person will do?

i'm sorry i have to go now, it's 1:00 am and i have to wake up at 7 so i'll check this tomorrow c ya.

[MegoHulk]

Sound like we're heading into fanboy country here. Sidious is going to be Palpy, we already know Palpy is the Emporer. If Gl is going to throw us a curve ball here then he's going to have to explain why he's a clone, why it took 50 yrs, who's behind it all, and what happened to the clone after EP3. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but let's be realistic here, GL is not going to just squeeze a major plot twist in at the last minute. And if Palp and Sid are clones then who cloned them, why did they do it and where is this person now? This would mean another bad guy to explain...and why waste 50 years growing 2 clones and having one become a Senator and the other a Sith lord. It's absurd and it won't happen. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

[Darth Fabulous]

Well because one man, even a Sith Lord, cannot be reasonably expected to train two Sith aprentices, run the Republic, and orchestrate an elaborate plot to overthrow the the Republic by placing Anakin and Padmé in a situation to fall in love, pushing Anakin down the dark path, convincing a mentally challenged Gungun to grant him emergency powers he doesn't plan on giving up, and destroying the Jedi Order that outnumbers him 10,000:1.

[Darth Fabulous]

Originally posted by MegoHulk@Nov 8 2002, 01:10 AM
Sound like we're heading into fanboy country here. Sidious is going to be Palpy, we already know Palpy is the Emporer. If Gl is going to throw us a curve ball here then he's going to have to explain why he's a clone, why it took 50 yrs, who's behind it all, and what happened to the clone after EP3. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but let's be realistic here, GL is not going to just squeeze a major plot twist in at the last minute. And if Palp and Sid are clones then who cloned them, why did they do it and where is this person now? This would mean another bad guy to explain...and why waste 50 years growing 2 clones and having one become a Senator and the other a Sith lord. It's absurd and it won't happen. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif
First, there is only one clone. Sidious is a naturally born human in my theory. Second, why not the Kaminaons, they are good at cloning and maybe he is so happy with his first clone that he later has them make a clone army under his previous name. Yes, that's right, I think Sidious is Sifo-Dyas too, but that's for another thread.

[Darth Fabulous]

Oh and third, maybe Palpatine is an old family name that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas once used and gave to his clone. He simply murdered his clone when it was no longer useful and assumed his old family name.

[Darth Fabulous]

Sorry again, I'm a little tired and all my thoughts aren't coming all at once, but four, why wont he throw in a plot twist at the last minute? He did it with Vader being Luke's father in ESB, and that was the mother of all plot twists. Oh yeah, and I resent the "fanboy" crack, I consider it an attack on my integrity and my character, but I will not respond in kind. Instead I will lock it away, away in a little lockbox in my heart, where all bad thoughts go. I seriously believe this is more plausable than Sidious=Palpatine.

[MegoHulk]

Come on guys...do any of you really believe the stuff your writing or are you writing it to convince yourselves? Why would the Kaminos go to the trouble of setting up an elaborate plot that would take 50+ years to work. You've told me HOW they could be 2 people but not WHY. Sure...ok, maybe they're clones...but who cloned them and why??? See....theres no point in doing this in Ep3...there will be plenty of other things going on. Why confuse everyone with another sub plot that will not be tied up?

[Darth Fabulous]

I didn't say the Kaminoans are behind the plot, they are just the cloners. I thought it was clear that Sidious is behind the plot, guess I was wrong. I'm not that crazy.

[MegoHulk]

The Vader plot twist was in ESB...the 2nd of THREE films...hence it was not last minute. EP3 is the last of all 6 movies...that is last minute. Sorry you find the term fanboy so insulting...alot of people use it with pride. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth Fabulous]

And why is 50 years too long for a plot to develop. The Sith have been waiting millenia for revenge, what's another 50 years?

[Darth Fabulous]

Originally posted by MegoHulk@Nov 8 2002, 01:50 AM
The Vader plot twist was in ESB...the 2nd of THREE films...hence it was not last minute. EP3 is the last of all 6 movies...that is last minute. Sorry you find the term fanboy so insulting...alot of people use it with pride. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
By last minute I meant that it wasn't planned during the previous film's production.

[MegoHulk]

Ok...so as an embryo , SIdious has himself cloned and plots to take over the galaxy...someday. So yada yada yada...50 years later, Palpy is the Supreme Chancellor now and Sidious decides to start a war...blah blah blah...I assume he kills Palpy then, takes his name for some reason and the rest is history...right? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

[Darth Fabulous]

He isn't cloned as an embryo. Sidious is Sifo-Dyas, he is in the Jedi Order. He secretly uses the Sith holocron and develops his Sith powers right under Yoda's nose. He has a vision forseeing himself taking over the Republic. So he sets his plan in motion, has himself cloned. He secretly teaches his young clone to hate the Jedi and teaches him all about politics and shows him the plan. The clone grows up and becomes a Senator from Naboo. Happy with his clone, Sifo/Sidious orders the clone army and sends his new friend Dooku to hire someone suitable to clone. Sifo leaves the order, Dooku helps spread news of Sifo's death. Ten years pass then AOTC, I'll assume you saw it and skip that part. For the rest read my post in the "How was Anakin Tricked" thread. (n/m I put it in myself)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>For anyone who believes Padmé must die, or that Anakin must be tricked into thinking she dies, for him to turn, please consider this as an alternative. This is my own little story I cooked up. It has many parallels with the OT, and I think it is reasonable.

Padmé gets kidnapped by Dooku (similar to Han, Chewie, and Leia in ESB). Anakin wants to go rescue her, but the order, and Obi Wan, says no (Yoda and Ben advised Luke not to go). Anakin goes knowing he will be booted from the order. He faces Dooku, doesn't defeat him, but rescues Padmé. He returns to Coruscant and talks with Palpy about being booted, he is the only one, other than Padmé, that Anakin trusts anymore. Palpy talks him into facing Dooku again to end the Clone War and to protect Padmé from future attacks. He goes, faces Dooku in front of this new guy Sidious. He disables Dooku and is about to finish him (like Luke in ROTJ) Sidious says something like "give in to your hate" and Anakin swiftly decapitates Dooku. Completing his transformation to the Dark Side.

This way he falls and Padmé lives, but his love for her drove him down that path.[/b][/quote]

Add in Sidious kills Palpatine and takes his place as Chancelor/Emporer.

[MegoHulk]

Ok...but Sidious and Palpy appear to be the same age...if he had Palpy cloned then he would over 50 years older than Palpy. He must use Oil of Oly or something cause he looks good for being so old. Also if Sidious is Sifo Dyas ans Palpy is a clone of Sidious then why don't the Jedi think Palpy is really Sifo Dyas? See...it just doesn't work.

[Darth Fabulous]

Cosmetic surgery or I have heard a theory, might have been in EU somewhere, that using the Dark Side takes a toll on the body, making it age prematurely. Since Palps is non-Force-using clone, he ages at a normal rate. This way they can look quite different, especially since we don't see enough of them to really say they look alike yet.

[MegoHulk]

Well the voice and chin are dead giveaways. And cosmetic surgery? Come on...your grasping at straws now...thats so lame. Just admit I killed your theory. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth Fabulous]

You didn't kill anything. The cosmetic surgery was a joke, guess it didn't go over well...note to self: Don't assume others have a sense of humor. Although, he could be a changeling, hmm... Personally, I didn't think they looked all that much alike, and as for the voice, well they are clones, logic would say they sounded alike. It takes a lot more than a handful of random opinions of two characters' appearances to kill a theory.

[Darth Fabulous]

You know, people say my chin looks a lot like John Travolta's, I wonder if he and I are the same person? Na, I would never have acted in Battleground Earth. Also, I seemed to have misplaced my Leer jet.

[MegoHulk]

Alright...I'm coming to the conclusion that your just a post-whore (see Agent Bond TK007) and your not really looking for any answers. Sidious and Palpy are played by the same actor....so they DO look alike for some odd reason. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif He's not a changling or a hologram or a clone. He's aalso not Sifo Dyas...although he may have told the KAminoians he was. Theres no solid argument to prove Sidious and Palpy are clones or twins or whatever. It's the same guy...let's look at the facts one last time:

Same age, same voice, same chin, on the same planet, same goal, Palpy has an intrest in Anakin....is it coincidence Vader is the Emporers apprentice? Sidious has the same cloak as the Emporer. Palpatine is the Emperor, the Emperor is the next reasonable step up from supreme chancellor...Palpy was the chancellor. See where I'm going with this?
PAlp is using his powers to bend the will of senators, and draw power to himself. He's also Sidious...a Sith lord...looking for power. If we just had them be a clone then we'd have to assume they are working together...if so then why would one kill the other after all those years together? But whatever...believe what you want. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

[Darth Fabulous]

I hope to Christ you didn't just call me a post-whore. I haven't had my name as the most recent poster in every category for the last two hours.

Since you seem to have a short attention span and didn't read the rest of this thread before posting, I'll recap for you:

Before you came along we had all agreed on not posting opinions as reasons. Oh well, so much for civilization.


But whatever...believe what you want.

I will thanks, but at the same time, and unlike you I might add, I will keep an open mind to other people's ideas.


Same age

Says you, no fact backing you up...what's that word again...oh yes, opinion.


same voice

Think I said it before, but if one's a clone of the other why shouldn't they sound alike.


same chin

Now that's an identifying feature, almost as good as an elbow...but not quite.


on the same planet

I don't know which planet you are refering to, I assume Coruscant. Wow, there are only billions of other people living there...are they all Sidious too?


same goal

Makes sense when one is a clone controlled by a Sith Lord. Luke and Leia have the same goal of defeating the Empire, are they the same person?


He's not a changling

That was a joke again, still looking for that sense of humor?


Sidious has the same cloak as the Emporer

Same cloak huh? Mace, Obi Wan, and countless other Jedi wear the same robes...there must really be only one Jedi, moving really fast so he/she looks like he/she is in more than one place at a time.


Palpy has an intrest in Anakin

No kidding? I would too if my Sith clone told me to keep an eye on the Chosen One who would help us overthrow the Republic.


Palpatine is the Emperor

That's his name, could be an old family name that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas' family stopped using years ago, and he decided to give that name to his clone. Anyway, that's me speculating, but it makes sense that he would give his clone a name that meant something to him once.


If we just had them be a clone then we'd have to assume they are working together...if so then why would one kill the other after all those years together?

Sidious is evil, he kills thousands during his reign, what's one clone?

[Darth Fabulous]

I think I hit the character limit on my last post, when you are a post-whore things like that happen. So continued from above:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Theres no solid argument to prove Sidious and Palpy are clones or twins or whatever.[/b][/quote]

Truth is there is no solid argument to prove they are the same either. There are, however, your small-minded opinions which might mean the world to you, but mean less than crap to the rest of us, as they are in fact opinion, and not fact.

Also, for the record I would like everyone to note that I did not resort to aggressive language until I was called a "post-whore." I also apologize for any part I had in allowing what was once an intelligent discussion to degrade to such a sad state.

[James T. Skywalker]

The only argument I have is that Rick McCallum, Pablo Hidalgo, Chris Cerasi, and nearly all those involved with Lucasfilm, including the one person whose OPINION means more than ours, George Lucas, have said flat out that Palpatine and Sidious are the same, exact person. Not clones, not twins, or anything else like that.

Same. Person.

~James T. Skywalker

[Jedi D'oh]

One thing I noticed was overlooked on the clone thing, Palpy looks older than Sidious. If anything, then ,Sidious is the clone of Palpy. But that makes no sense either. That's the reason for the degraded age look of Palpy in AOTC, the dark side takes a toll on the body. In TPM he looked like a regular old man. In AOTC, he begins looking more Empororish, the way he holds his hands in front of him, the red guuards, the office chair, his robes, most everything about Palpy now is heading toward the way he is in the OT.

[MegoHulk]

Thank you James.........and as far as you go D.Fab...you are a post whore. I think everyones general definition to that is someone who posts just to post. You constantly take 3-4 posts to make one point. I pointed you towards Bond because he the biggest post whore of all time. Something like 2, 300 posts in 3 months........................BUt anyways, back to the point. These are not opinions, these are things even the most simple person can figure out. I'm not the one with a closed mind on this subject....even an infant can figure out Sidious IS Palpatine. And they do have the same cloak...look at the clasp at the neck....exact same one the Emperor has in ROTJ. You see...it's those of you who think they are clones that are arguing an OPINION, not me. It's your theory they are clones....fine, but as I've stated many times, it makes so much more sense that they are the same person. It would be utterly pointless to introduce a clone that would be killed as soon as we find out about it. How would that be good for the story? So Sidious is gonna take over, declare himself Emperor, change his name to Palpatine, then kill Palpatine? Am I to assume this is your theory? It's absurd. But as I said...believe what you want...the rest of us know the truth anyways. So instead of the two of us fighting over this, let's hear other peoples theories then and draw our own conclusions. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/grouphug.gif

[Jedi D'oh]

The fact that Sidious' cloak and clasp are the same only furthers that Sidious is the emporor, not Palpy. I agree with you Megohulk, but it does have a point in the favor of them being different. I posted some similarites between Palpy in AOTC and the emporor that I think are points in the favor of them being the same. Anyone else agree?

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Thank you James.........and as far as you go D.Fab...you are a post whore. I think everyones general definition to that is someone who posts just to post. You constantly take 3-4 posts to make one point.[/b][/quote]

Sorry, it was like 4 am EST, I was a little tired and my thoughts were not coming all at once.

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The fact that Sidious' cloak and clasp are the same only furthers that Sidious is the emporor, not Palpy. I agree with you Megohulk, but it does have a point in the favor of them being different. I posted some similarites between Palpy in AOTC and the emporor that I think are points in the favor of them being the same. Anyone else agree? [/b][/quote]

I think I said before that just because they wear the same clothes they aren't the same person.

[Jedi D'oh]

Darth Fab, who cares about you posting alot? I don't. Don't worry about it or justify it. Post what you will when you will. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Darth Fabulous]

Well for one I care about me having to post a lot. The last two pages of this thread is MegoHulk trying to prove me wrong by saying they look alike. I don't know how many times I had to say 1. I don't think they do. and 2. So what, a lot of people look alike and aren't the same person. It's wasted space now and I had no intention of making 50 posts yesterday.

[Jedi D'oh]

It's all good.

That's true about the clothes. All the Jedi dress the same but aren't the same person.

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by MegoHulk@Nov 8 2002, 03:24 PM
Thank you James.........and as far as you go D.Fab...you are a post whore. I think everyones general definition to that is someone who posts just to post. You constantly take 3-4 posts to make one point. I pointed you towards Bond because he the biggest post whore of all time. Something like 2, 300 posts in 3 months........................BUt anyways, back to the point. These are not opinions, these are things even the most simple person can figure out. I'm not the one with a closed mind on this subject....even an infant can figure out Sidious IS Palpatine. And they do have the same cloak...look at the clasp at the neck....exact same one the Emperor has in ROTJ. You see...it's those of you who think they are clones that are arguing an OPINION, not me. It's your theory they are clones....fine, but as I've stated many times, it makes so much more sense that they are the same person. It would be utterly pointless to introduce a clone that would be killed as soon as we find out about it. How would that be good for the story? So Sidious is gonna take over, declare himself Emperor, change his name to Palpatine, then kill Palpatine? Am I to assume this is your theory? It's absurd. But as I said...believe what you want...the rest of us know the truth anyways. So instead of the two of us fighting over this, let's hear other peoples theories then and draw our own conclusions. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/grouphug.gif
I agree with you my good man that Sidious and Palpatine are one in the same even GL has said they are one in the same,and just to prove it I took my friend to see TPM now mind you he had not seen or heard any rumors about SW after the movie was over I asked him if he knew who the guy was that was Darth Sidious and he said yes it was palpatine,now if he could figure that out and he's not a hardcore fan like we are what does that tell ya people,all the people who still say Sidious and Palpatine are not one in the same must live in a cave because the truth is looking you right in the face and you just refuse to accept the truth of the matter,and there is such a thing as a post whore I,m not saying who because they and we know who you are.although I would prefer to use the word those who post just to post,but to each his own.LOL

[Jedi D'oh]

I hope that post-whore comment you made was not meant for me ,Isomorph style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif I post on MANY threads here so my count is up. I could care less. Back to it.

The argument that GL says so does not hold ground. While I agree that they are one in the same, GL changes things to suit his story and this could be one of them.

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by Jedi D'oh@Nov 8 2002, 04:53 PM
I hope that post-whore comment you made was not meant for me ,Isomorph style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif I post on MANY threads here so my count is up. I could care less. Back to it.

The argument that GL says so does not hold ground. While I agree that they are one in the same, GL changes things to suit his story and this could be one of them.
the comment was made to those who post just to say something but are not really saying anything or those just posting to have a higher midi-count my remark was not directed at those who post alot but are really saying something on the boards I pretty much can tell the diffrence between the two,so don't take my post the wrong way it's meant for those that deserve it.that could be the truth that he changes things but I doubt that will be the case,with the Sidious/Palpatine thing.LOL

[Frendon]

Well a lot has been going on since yesterday but the argument is the same, I posted a list of things that lead us to believe Palpatine is Sidious, you went through the list and denied all of them with almost the same argument "GL and his staff is lying or trying to mislead us" I'm sorry but is you are going to support your theory on that, it is reaaaaaaaally weak.
DF, I would really appreciate if you take the time to make a little list as I did on why we should believe Palpatine is a clone, and it should be a list of FACTS and not opinions as you have requested from us.
After all you are the one trying to present a theory and you should be the one presenting points that support your theory and not us presenting points to make it invalid.

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you my good man that Sidious and Palpatine are one in the same even GL has said they are one in the same,and just to prove it I took my friend to see TPM now mind you he had not seen or heard any rumors about SW after the movie was over I asked him if he knew who the guy was that was Darth Sidious and he said yes it was palpatine,now if he could figure that out and he's not a hardcore fan like we are what does that tell ya people,all the people who still say Sidious and Palpatine are not one in the same must live in a cave because the truth is looking you right in the face and you just refuse to accept the truth of the matter,and there is such a thing as a post whore I,m not saying who because they and we know who you are.although I would prefer to use the word those who post just to post,but to each his own.LOL [/b][/quote]

Ok, find someone who hasn't seen ANH, ask them if they know who that Vader guy is related to. Heck, show him all of ESB up to the duel and ask. No one can honestly say they knew Vader had to be Luke's father after only seeing ANH. My point is that the most obvious solution is not always the right one.

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>DF, I would really appreciate if you take the time to make a little list as I did on why we should believe Palpatine is a clone, and it should be a list of FACTS and not opinions as you have requested from us.
After all you are the one trying to present a theory and you should be the one presenting points that support your theory and not us presenting points to make it invalid.[/b][/quote]

Actually, I have been trying use proof by contradiction, proving the converse to be less likely or false. It's a valid scientific method, but I guess you all want more tangible support, I'll see what I can do.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by MegoHulk@Nov 8 2002, 12:26 AM
Ok...but Sidious and Palpy appear to be the same age...if he had Palpy cloned then he would over 50 years older than Palpy. He must use Oil of Oly or something cause he looks good for being so old. Also if Sidious is Sifo Dyas ans Palpy is a clone of Sidious then why don't the Jedi think Palpy is really Sifo Dyas? See...it just doesn't work.
You're forgetting that since the opinion is that Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and he had himself cloned by the Kaminoians, that way he was familiar with their work and could trust them with the task of cloning the army, then he would not have to have cloned himself when he was an embryo as you suggest. Are you forgetting about the age enhancement process that is explained? Did you ever stop to think that the whole point of age enhancement was included for something bigger than JUST the clone army itself?

Oh probably not because I forgot, if you don't agree with it, you don't think about it. That's quite clear to all of us.

[Jedi D'oh]

Another thing. Obi-Wan and the council KNOWS who Sifo-Dyas is. If he died just after TPM, it would be hard for Sidious and Sifo to be the same. IMHO.

[Darth Fabulous]

Here is a summarized list of each side's support for easier reference. If I left anything out let me know, I will edit it. By the way I tried to be fair.

Palpatine=Sidious

*Lucas commentary saying they are the same.
-I only suggest that we all might agree that since Lucas has changed his mind before that he might again so that we might move forward. That said this is your strongest evidence and my biggest hurdle.

*Palpatine and Sidious look, dress, and sound alike and are played by the same actor.
-That is circumstantial evidence, and that is all I will say about it. I spent all of last night trying to get through that argument with MegoHulk, and I am not going through it again.

*Palpatine's relationship with Anakin
-MegoHulk conceeded last night that if Palpatine was a clone, Sidious would have directed him to do that.

*It clears up nothing and overcomplicates the plot.

Palpatine is not Sidious

*One man, even a Sith Lord, cannot be reasonably expected to train two Sith aprentices, run the Republic, and orchestrate an elaborate plot to overthrow the the Republic by influencing the Trade Federation, and later the Confederacy, to do his will, placing Anakin and Padmé in a situation to fall in love, pushing Anakin down the dark path, convincing a mentally challenged Gungun to grant him emergency powers he doesn't plan on giving up, and destroying the Jedi Order that outnumbers him 10,000:1.
-One man can do all that.

*It clears up everything including why the Kaminoans were used to make the clone army, why the Jedi cannot sense Palpatine is a Sith, and what happened to Sifo-Dyas. There is much more, but I am going home for the weekend, carry on.

[James]

What I think:

Yes, Fabulous, I do agree with you that Palpy=Sidious style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/evil.gif

I think Dooku placed the clone order just after he left the Jedi Order, and Sidious instructed him to use the name of a real Jedi: Sifo-Dyas. Just after that, the real Sifo-Dyas died...

The Kaminoans made the clones not realising who was behind it and the Jedi could not sense somehting was going on behind the scenes because the Dark Side clouded their vision...

Enough from me style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Frendon]

Let me make some arrangements to your list:
*= Points in favor
- = Contra points

---------------Palpatine=Sidious-----------------

*Lucas commentary saying they are the same AND The final shot at the end of TPM when Yoda and Mace talk about which sith has being killed and the camera goes directly to Palpatine's face.

-I only suggest that we all might agree that since Lucas has changed his mind before that he might again so that we might move forward. That said this is your strongest evidence and my biggest hurdle. (supporting your theory on GL’s change of mind is really weak)

* Sidious constantly talks about having things controlled in the senate.

-Because he has his clone there

*Palpatine and Sidious look, dress, and sound alike and are played by the same actor.

-That is circumstantial evidence, and that is all I will say about it. I spent all of last night trying to get through that argument with MegoHulk, and I am not going through it again.

*Palpatine's relationship with Anakin AND the fact that if he was a clone there would be no real point to have a scene in the movie to see how their relationship has being growing, if he is a clone then nobody is interested in anakin’s relationship with him it is not needed for the story, on the other side if it is Sidious/FutureEmperor it starts moving the story towards the OT.

*It clears up nothing and overcomplicates the plot.

-------------Palpatine is not Sidious---------------

*One man, even a Sith Lord, cannot be reasonably expected to train two Sith aprentices, run the Republic, and orchestrate an elaborate plot to overthrow the the Republic by influencing the Trade Federation, and later the Confederacy, to do his will, placing Anakin and Padmé in a situation to fall in love, pushing Anakin down the dark path, convincing a mentally challenged Gungun to grant him emergency powers he doesn't plan on giving up, and destroying the Jedi Order that outnumbers him 10,000:1.

-He trained only one apprentice, Maul and he trained him waaay before he was elected Supreme Chancellor, he didn’t had to place Anakin and Padmé in a situation to fall in love, that just happened it is not part of his plan at all. It doesn’t take much to convince a mentally challenged Gungan to grant him emergency powers, and destroying the Jedi Order is left for Episode 3 so doesn’t count.

*It clears up everything including why the Kaminoans were used to make the clone army, why the Jedi cannot sense Palpatine is a Sith, and what happened to Sifo-Dyas. There is much more, but I am going home for the weekend, carry on.

-It is not necessary to clear up why the Jedi didn’t sense Palpatine as a Sith, “The darkside clouds everything” this line has been repeated through out the films for one reason. Sifo-Dyas was murdered only the jedi now how he died, but we don’t need to know that we only need to know that someone took his name and ordered the clones.
____________________________________

DF, Your theory only has 2 points that can be easily contradicted.

[DblDwn]

Lucas said on the commentary for TPM that they were the same. OK, if Palpatine is a clone of Sidious, then, technically speaking, they ARE the same because they have the exact same genetics.

The shot at the end of TPM when Yoda and Mace discuss the master or apprentice and the camera pans to show Palpatine's face could work in the same way. It shows the viewer that the Phantom Menace looks like this guy, but it is not this specific guy.

[Isomorph]

are you for real it is obvious they are one in the same and when the camera pans to palpatine that is GL going hey people,Sidious is Palpatine and he is the Master, what more evidence do you folks need that scene said it all. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

[Frendon]

DblDwn please present some evidence than can be used as a proof that Palpatine is a clone instead of trying to disprove the evidence that says Sidious is Palpatine.

[Frendon]

Originally posted by Darth Fabulous+Nov 8 2002, 01:00 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darth Fabulous @ Nov 8 2002, 01:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Exactly why are they the same age? That would mean Sidious was cloned at birth.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Darth Fabulous@Nov 8 2002, 02:05 AM
He isn't cloned as an embryo. Sidious is Sifo-Dyas, he is in the Jedi Order. He secretly uses the Sith holocron and develops his Sith powers right under Yoda's nose. He has a vision forseeing himself taking over the Republic. So he sets his plan in motion, has himself cloned. He secretly teaches his young clone to hate the Jedi and teaches him all about politics and shows him the plan. The clone grows up and becomes a Senator from Naboo. Happy with his clone, Sifo/Sidious orders the clone army and sends his new friend Dooku to hire someone suitable to clone. Sifo leaves the order, Dooku helps spread news of Sifo's death. Ten years pass then AOTC, I'll assume you saw it and skip that part. For the rest read my post in the "How was Anakin Tricked" thread. (n/m I put it in myself)
[/quote]
Darth Fabulous i would also like to point out that you contradict your own theory too much, same goes for Dbldwn he sometimes says that Sidious uses a nonforce user clone so the Jedi won't detect him and then suggest that Sidious and his clone communicate through the Force style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif .

[DblDwn]

There is no proof that either proves or disproves either theory because both are nothing but theories at this point.

There is a logical case to be made for both sides of the equation and that is what we are all doing.

Actually I was the one who suggested that the clone would be a Force user and that is how they communicate. Whether the clone would, or would not, be a Force user is just another debate within the debate.

Everyone believes what they believe and all we are doing is sharing those opinions and beliefs with everyone else. So don't ask me to prove an idea that has no way of being proven until we see the movie in two and a half years. I don't ask the non-believers to prove their opinion because, even though you all assume that you are the correct ones, the fact of the matter remains that you don't know either. You think.........just like me.

[spaceman2386]

i would have to say that they are the same person. it all just adds up right.

[Frendon]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Nov 8 2002, 11:20 PM
So don't ask me to prove an idea that has no way of being proven until we see the movie in two and a half years.

You said it yourself, your theory has no way of being proven, why make it all that complicated then if it is not needed at all? Evreything points out to Palpatine=Sidious, nothing points out the contrary, then why debate on something that doesn't need any debate in the first place? UNLESS there would be something that would STRONGLY suggest that Palpatine is a clone, but unfortunately there isn't such a thing you said it yourself.

[MegoHulk]

Yeah the whole debate has turned into a "wait and see" answer. Dbldwn, I think you just like to argue sometimes...you've basically ended this thread though by saying neither theory can be proven. Both sides have stated their case and we've made our opinions. At this point I don't think anyone is gonna publically change their mind anyways. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[DblDwn]

Just as my theory cannot be proven, neither can yours. You assume just as I do. You can say that it was Emperor Palpatine in the OT but we've come up with a logical way around that. You can say that the camera pans onto Palpatine's face at the end of TPM but we've found a way around that as well. Every argument that you can make for your case we can logically find a way around and vice versa.

The point of the thread is to share opinions regarding both sides of the argument and that is what we have been, and still are, doing.

I don't like to argue I like to debate. There is a difference between the two. But if someone starts to argue with me I'm not going to back down. As long as it is done with the without undermining the intentions of the site then I don't have a problem with it.

[Frendon]

My only point is that everything points to Sidious=Palpatine, and u people just have to make up stuff to support your theory, but ON THE FILMS there is nothing that supports it.

[DblDwn]

Maybe so, but there also is nothing that truly supports your theory either. Remember..........the Dark Side clouds EVERYTHING.

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Nov 9 2002, 10:17 PM
Maybe so, but there also is nothing that truly supports your theory either. Remember..........the Dark Side clouds EVERYTHING.
only in your case does it cloud everything,then you turn around and say" maybe so" to Frendon which just goes to show you know we are right.

[DblDwn]

What is that supposed to mean?

I'm going into Episode III with an open mind. What you guys believe to be true is what EVERYONE has believed to be true for 20 years. That is why I say that the Dark Side clouds everything. It's not because I am willing and able to explore options other than what everyone has been lead to believe but because the majority of everyone else is not able to.

I said maybe so because he has a valid point. At least I am not so vain as to believe that I am right and that the rest of you are wrong. The fact of the matter remains that, whether you care to admit it or not, you only look at your opinion as possible and do not even attempt to consider anything else.

That is just pure arrogance in my opinion.

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by Darth Fabulous@Nov 8 2002, 06:29 AM
Sorry again, I'm a little tired and all my thoughts aren't coming all at once, but four, why wont he throw in a plot twist at the last minute? He did it with Vader being Luke's father in ESB, and that was the mother of all plot twists. Oh yeah, and I resent the "fanboy" crack, I consider it an attack on my integrity and my character, but I will not respond in kind. Instead I will lock it away, away in a little lockbox in my heart, where all bad thoughts go. I seriously believe this is more plausable than Sidious=Palpatine.
no wonder your thoughts are not comming out right,it's hard trying to make sense of your own very outlandish theory why make things so complex when they are not,he won't throw out a last minute plot twist because he knows that would be a very idiot move to make,the Vader/Luke father was a very good idea that made sense unlike your theory,and it was not a last minute thing he did with Luke and Vader it was written that way before hand.Palpatine=Sidious that is a fact not theory what is my proof the movies and GL himself.

[DblDwn]

Just as I said before..................arrogance.

[Frendon]

Dbldwn i'm an open minded person and as i said before on this thread it wouldn't bother me if it turns out the way you say it will, but the thing is that what we have seen so far points to Sidious=Palpatine, your theory is only supported by the fact that GL can change his mind, and it is true, he can, but that supports ANY theory even a the theory as "obiwan from the OT is going to be a clone of the obiwan on the pt" ANYTHING can be supported by that.

[DblDwn]

So you're saying that your open-mindedness then only allows you to agree with that which you have been told? Lucas says something 20 years ago so it's true today? Lucas says something on a DVD 2 years ago and it is true today? The camera panned onto this person at this point after that was said so he is the culprit? You're lead to believe something is true and that is the end of it?

Is that what open-mindedness is these days?

[Frendon]

Dbldwn i don't get you, you constantly say that you support GL, and you agree with him on everything because it is his story, but you want people not to agree with him and what he says? it is his story then why not?
It is a lot better than to agree with something made up with no bases at all right?

[MegoHulk]

Yeah , the whole "GL can change his mind" excuse can explain anything then. Jar Jar could be the Sith lord then...because GL can always change his mind. Thats where GL is making his biggest mistakes...by not even following his own story. Having to go back and change a movie every couple of years to fit the set of new movies is not the right way to do things. The PT should conform to the OT...not the other way around. It seems the thinking here is that if GL makes these changes (Mon mothma is Padme, etc) then he can just go back and re-do sections of the OT again. Thats a half ass way of doing things...I don't care if it's his story or not. These plot twists would do nothing to advance the movie and only cause confusion. COULD they happen...sure...will they happen....probably not...no , most definitly not. If someone wants to theorize why and how these plot twists would make the movie better then please share with us.

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Nov 9 2002, 11:30 PM
Just as I said before..................arrogance.
I'm not arrogant my friend I'm just pointing out the facts your only defense is GL can change his mind is a very weak defense at best,I,m not being a yes man but Frendon said it best.

[DblDwn]

If Palpatine is Sidious then why introduce the name of Sifo-Dyas?

No offense but the lack of imagination around here is really starting to get frustrating.

[Frendon]

The JEDI are going to be blamed for the clone wars, a JEDI ordered the clone army, Palpatine made his best move by either posing as a Jedi or sending someone to pose as one.

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Nov 10 2002, 05:29 PM
If Palpatine is Sidious then why introduce the name of Sifo-Dyas?

No offense but the lack of imagination around here is really starting to get frustrating.
Sifo-Dyas was a jedi master that died or was killed like obi-wan said in atoc,as to why Dooku or sidious impersonated that jedi one can only assume it was done to keep everything looking legit although i'm sure there is more to it than just that,after all i doubt yoda or mace were going to do the sith a favor and say sure Sidious let me take your order that will be 1.Super sized clone army to go would you like a Large Death Star with that order as well.Could your frustration have anything to do with the fact that we keep puting holes in all your theories. ???

[DblDwn]

All that is said is that it was believed and/or assumed that Sifo-Dyas is died around the time of TPM. No one really seems to know for sure whether or not he died. Is it not possible that Sifo-Dyas just disappeared one day, therefore everyone just assumes that he died, and then took his new identity as Darth Sidious? You cannot say that it is not possible because it is entirely possible and highly probable.

You have not, nor has anyone else for that matter, put any holes in my theory. If that is what you believe that you have been doing then you can just go on ahead thinking that because my theories are still here and they still hold just as much merit to me and some of the others as yours hold for you and yours.

[Frendon]

How can you say your theory has no holes in it? it is filled with holes!!

Holes like:

*If he is a clone of SIFO DYAS/Sidious then why wouldn't the Jedi recognize him?
*If the clone can use the force as you suggested, then why the Jedi can't detect him? and if you say that the darkside clouds everything, then why use a clone when Sidious can make the job.
*Why on earth does the camera pans onto palpatine's face at the end of TPM if he is not the sithlord that is still alive?
-Your answer to the last one: It could work in the same way. It shows the viewer that the Phantom Menace looks like this guy, but it is not this specific guy. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif c'mon i think you are using too much of your "imagination"

*Palpatine's relationship with Anakin AND the fact that if he was a clone there would be no real point to have a scene in the movie to see how their relationship has being growing, if he is a clone then nobody is interested in anakin’s relationship with him it is not needed for the story, on the other side if it is Sidious/FutureEmperor it starts moving the story towards the OT.

If all of this are not holes on your theory then what the hell are them?

[Isomorph]

Well put my friend,he knows he doesn't make any sense at all thats why he's so frustrated,its alot of work trying to thread a camel through a needle.

[DblDwn]

They are points for your argument just as I use examples and info to support my argument. I don't have all the answers and I don't pretend that I can theorize on everything that I believe. The difference is that you assume that you can and that is arrogance.

Your argument is based on what you are lead to believe whereas my argument is based on common sense of what we both see and hear in AOTC.

Your argument would have been 110% indisputable before the PT and 95% indisputable after TPM, but when you factor in what is hinted at in AOTC of things to come in Episode III then your argument loses much of its stability.

Not to sound disrespectful or anything but your argument is based on either your inability to follow the obvious hints at story in AOTC or you are simply just too naive to accept them.

Either way you're going to come back with something about how I read too much into things although they are quite obvious to anyone who cares to pay attention to them. So come on...............what next?

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Isomorph@Nov 10 2002, 01:17 PM
Well put my friend,he knows he doesn't make any sense at all thats why he's so frustrated
Once again my frustration stems from your inability to see the obvious.

Don't put words in my mouth and ASSUME that your nonsense is what is getting to me.

[Frendon]

OMG i just can't believe i'm reading this stuff:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I use examples and info to support my argument. [/b][/quote]
I have not seen any valid info that supports your theory.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>my argument is based on common sense of what we both see and hear in AOTC.[/b][/quote]
Common sense? you really believe this stuff?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Not to sound disrespectful or anything but your argument is based on either your inability to follow the obvious hints at story in AOTC or you are simply just too naive to accept them. [/b][/quote]
Obvious hints? name one.

[DblDwn]

I have posted them on probably 3-4 different threads throughout the site so if you want some help in your quest for enlightenment then you can go ahead and find them yourself. I'm not going to take the time to post them again.

And yes I really do believe this stuff because it is called common sense. Maybe you can find some on Ebay.

(Ok that was the beer talking)

[Frendon]

Ok, so you don't even remember what you posted or they are not such strong points to even bother to post them again.
I have not insulted you in anyway Dbldwn, you think it is common sense but some how at least 95% of the members here do not agree with you so then it is not that common eh?
You constantly try to insult me but that doesn't help your theory, if you have nothing that supports your theory then it would be better not to post anything at all.

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by DblDwn+Nov 10 2002, 08:22 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DblDwn @ Nov 10 2002, 08:22 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Isomorph@Nov 10 2002, 01:17 PM
Well put my friend,he knows he doesn't make any sense at all thats why he's so frustrated
Once again my frustration stems from your inability to see the obvious.

Don't put words in my mouth and ASSUME that your nonsense is what is getting to me.[/b][/quote]
looks like more than my nonsense is getting to you,or you woudn't be getting your panties in a bunch,I didn't ASSUME as you put it and perhaps you are the one who is naive and refuses to see the obvious,I followed the story quite well and still don't see or hear anything that comes close to supporting your theories about anything you have said,i.e Palpatine/Sidious,so what next?

[Justin]

I was watching some of the special features on the Episode II DVD, and there was a point (I think it was in one of the sound documentaries) where Ben Burtt refers to Darth Sidious as the Emperor.

Why are people so hell-bent on disbelieving that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person?

[Frendon]

yes Justin i mentioned it before and this is what they gave me:

-I only suggest that we all might agree that since Lucas has changed his mind before that he might again so that we might move forward. That said this is your strongest evidence and my biggest hurdle.

Their whole theory is based on GL's constant change of mind. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by Justin@Nov 10 2002, 09:21 PM
I was watching some of the special features on the Episode II DVD, and there was a point (I think it was in one of the sound documentaries) where Ben Burtt refers to Darth Sidious as the Emperor.

Why are people so hell-bent on disbelieving that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person?
I do believe they are the same person I was not refering to that,I was talking about the other theories that Dbldwn was trying to make about Palpatine/Sdious.

[DblDwn]

Actually if Palpatine was a clone of Sidious and when the time came he (Sidious) stepped into Palpatine's place and declared his Empire and himself Emperor, then the people would believe that Palpatine was the Emperor since they would, for all intents and purposes, look and sound the same.

Therefore it would be Emperor Palpatine and Sidious would be the Emperor.

[Raganork8]

I can't agree with you so many signs point to the simple answer sure your theory is well thought out but it just doesn't fit in the end Frendon is right this time.
YOU CAN'T WIN EVERY BATTLE style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[DblDwn]

We shall wait until 2005 then

[Justin]

Yes, and the people who are adamant that Sidious is not Palpatine will look stupid.

[MegoHulk]

We shall wait until 2005 then


And the white corner throws in the towel....the fat lady is singing folks. I think we've said all that needs to be said...the majority seems to be against you this time Dbldwn. Good debate though, guess we will have to wait to see who really wins though. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Shoma Barad]

Someone earlier mentioned Sifo-Dyas...

If you pay careful attention to the scenes on Kamino, one thing becomes obvious- or at least became obvious to me. Sifo-Dyas is Tyranus, and Tyranus is Dooku.

Get this-

Sifo Dyas dies. Okay. Great. he's dead.

Count Dooku leaves the Jedi Order. Bye Bye.

Sifo Dyas arrives on Kamino, and orders an Army. Curious.

As he orders the clones, Sifo-Dyas informs the cloners when the template will arrive.

Jango Fett is recruited to become a template for a clone army... wait a minute... Syfo-Dyas was the guy who knows about that.. but wait a minute... he's dead....

Whats more, the guy that recruits Fett ISNT Syfo-Dyas, but "Tyranus".

Jango Fett arrives at kamino, just when Sifo-Dyas said he would...

Then, Count Dooku is leading a group of Separatists. And who should be there to help him, but... Jango Fett.

And where does Fett flee when he knows the jig is up at Kamino? Why, straight to geonosis, of course, where his old buddy Tyranus is. Why Tyranus and not Syfo Dyas? Because they are the same person- Fett has never HEARD of Syfo-Dyas (until Obi Wan queries him on Kamino).

Once the war is started, Dooku/Tyranus heads to his Master, Darth Sidious, the mastermind of the whole scheme. The link between Dooku and Tyranus is complete, as is the link between Dooku, Sidious and Tyranus.

The simple explanation for Syfo-Dyas, is that Dooku/Tyranus took that name (the name of a dead Jedi master) to place the order for the clone army- because Sidious' plans as a Dark Lord of the Sith are focussed on the destruction of the Jedi Order. Blaming the deaths of countless millions on the Jedi will turn the galaxy against the former their gaurdians.

As for Palpatine/Sidious... there is ample evidence for the link there. Looking at AOTC, we have tonnes of evidence that Sith Lords like to 'be' multiple people at once (Dooku).

And when you're taking care of delicate political manipulations, who better to be than the Supreme Chancellor? But while you're working to bring down some of the most respected people in the galaxy (the Jedi), the Supreme CHancellor wont do- it would be political suicide. So, be a Sith Lord instead- the kind of person who is capable of remaining hidden and undetected for a millenium.

Lucas has dropped plenty of hints in the script, as well as in the film techniques he has used. He has raised questions, and I believe he has already given the answers.

Sifo-Dyas/Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku= one person (although at one stage, Sifo-Dyas was his own person. Dooku assumed his identity (possibly after taking his life), and ordered the clone army, so that Palpatine can place the blame for the clone wars squarely on the shoulders of the Jedi)

Palpatine/Darth Sidious= one person. Almost EVERYONE involved with the project has stated as much. And I believe any speculation to the contrary is fruitless. Anyone who buys into it is in for a big disappointment.

Is it possible Lucas could do something different? Sure.

Is it likely?

No.

Even after spoilers ruined the surprise of the film almost a full year in advance of its release, Lucas STILL didn't change anything. the big surprise he has planned isn't that Palpatine and Sidious aren't the same person. his big surprise is that they ARE the same person.

After two films of Palpatine being the 'Good' guy, he reveals himself to the Jedi as Sidious and says "Boo! I fooled you all, suckers!"

This is STAR WARS, not Days of our lives. No HUGE twists, no clones of Sith Masters or Darth Bane or Anakin Skywalker (and definately NOT DARTH MAUL!). The biggest twist in Star Wars was that Vader was Lukes Father. WHOA. It was huge.

But Sidious wont be Anakins father, or Dooku's, or Yoda's. The only thing we'll find out is that Sidious IS Palpatine. Then there will be a large group of people who slap their foreheads and cry in anguish "Oh Boy, was I suckered!"

To me, THAT is common sense. the theories are nice, but the evidence being presented just doesn't back it up.

~~Shoma

[MegoHulk]

Excellent post Shoma...that pretty much sums it all up. I for one will be taken off guard if in fact they are clones of each other. Thanks.

[Shoma Barad]

If they are clones of eachother, I'll eat my copy of Star by Star, with a side order of Traitor (which is what Lucas would be... lol)

~~Shoma

[Raganork8]

sifo can't be dooku because when the jedi see dooku why don't they just sa "oh look it's sifo dias and dooku left the jedi order after qui gon died...wait was that ten years ago?
either way if dooku left the jedi order and sifo dias died they would know they are the same person because he is there going as dooku and sifo dias.
sifo dyas= sidyas=sidious?

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by raganork8@Nov 11 2002, 08:14 AM
sifo can't be dooku because when the jedi see dooku why don't they just sa "oh look it's sifo dias and dooku left the jedi order after qui gon died...wait was that ten years ago?
either way if dooku left the jedi order and sifo dias died they would know they are the same person because he is there going as dooku and sifo dias.
sifo dyas= sidyas=sidious?
What he's saying is that Sifo Dyas and Dooku are not the same person. However, he is saying that after Sifo Dyas died (or was killed, by Dooku perhaps), Dooku took his identity when he went to Kamino to order the clones. So they aren't the same person, but the Kaminoans wouldn't have known who he was either way. He could have said he was Yoda and those cloners wouldn't have known the difference. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

~JTS

[Martini]

i have a bad feeling that we'll never know anything about Syfo-Dyas in EP3. i can see GL just leaving it out

[Raganork8]

i agree martini... i agree

[DblDwn]

I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how no one else, except for a few, can see that Sifo-Dyas is Sidious.

Everyone assumes that he dies around the same time that Sidious is first seen. Too much of a coincidence.

The names themselves Sifo-Dyas and Sidious sound far too much alike for that to just be a coincidence.

Sifo-Dyas knows of the Jedi's abilities to use the Force diminishing (he was on the Jedi Council after all). That may very well have been one of his reasons for leaving the Jedi Order and becoming a Sith Master. Anyway, he orders the clone army under his Jedi name (I agree with the point that it would turn blame onto the Jedi if a member of the Jedi Council were responsible for the army) and had Dooku/Tyrannus hire Jango. He then disappears and goes into hiding if you will as Sidious where he then tells Dooku and his clone what to do. This way, since he vanishes without a trace, the Jedi just assume that he died and when they finally learn that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones, they have no way of questioning him on the matter since they are under the assumption that he was dead.

He had to order the army himself so that the Kaminoans would see that it was a Jedi who did so and because he would want to take care of that himself since it is important. He picked out Jango as the source of the clones and had Dooku hire him because, after all, Sifo-Dyas is 'dead' and cannot be seen by anyone who might begin to figure something out. Especially if he looks like his clone which is the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.

This all just seems obvious to me. Of course there is a chance that I may be mistaken, just like there is a chance that anyone of you are mistaken as well, but I believe that I am right. How many times in movies does the villain turn out to be someone who was once a friend of the good guys like Sifo-Dyas to the Jedi? There was The Third Man (Orson Welles and Joseph Cotton movie.......great flick), Goldeneye (first Bond film with Pierce Brosnan), Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (Donavon was a friend to Henry and got Indiana involved in the search for the Grail), and too many others to sit here and name them all.

It just seems to me that this is the way it will unfold. Whether or not you agree with me I don't care. We all have our individual opinions about this and every other topic imaginable. The fact still remains that no matter how confident we all are of our ideas and no matter how obvious something is to one or all of us these still are nothing but opinions which cannot truly be counted out until 2005.

[Jedi D'oh]

The name Sifo-dyas sound like Sidious is a weak argument.

Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus. No similarity.

Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. No similarity.

I suppose in the movie it is the first time Sidious is seen, but not the first time he has been around. EU aside, he had to train Maul. Maul says "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge." He wouldn't have to say that if he was a Sith for a week. He has been waiting patiently along with his Master. That is why the story opens where it does. It is the right time for the Sith to strike and they are preparing their takeover.

Perhaps this deleted scene will tell of Dooku's timeframe of leaving the order. It would make sense that Dooku killed Sifo and used his name when ordering the clones. I doubt the Kaminoans did a background and ID check on him.

Also, Dooku was already trained as a jedi, so he just tuned in to the dark side, he didn't need to start from scratch.

[NIGHTTRAVELER]

I know most of us don't want to hear this, and I would tend to fall into that catagory myself, but here it goes.


I think its going to turn out that Darth Maul is/was Syfo-Dias.


1. It by passes the fact that there is no room for a new bad guy in Ep III.

2. It fits the timelime.

3. The tatoos explain the lack of recognition.

4. It is also easy to reveal in Ep III with a simple acknowledgement.

5. The jury is out on Palpatine/Sidious debate, but I really don't think that Syfo-Dias is one or both of them.

6. The fact that Syfo-Dias was introduced in Ep II makes it very unlikely that he died/was killed and someone used his name.

7. It gives much more importance to Darth Maul, who looked like a bit of a waste after Ep I.

[Jedi D'oh]

That sounds bad, too. The only reason they mentiond Sifo in II is because he ordered the clones. (whether himself or someone using his name as an alias.) It was just as quick stated that he was killed. Meaning that he was part of the order until he died. I seriously doubt they will reveal Maul as Sifo.

Tattoos will still not mask a force sense. If he was a member of the council, which they said he was, Quigon would have recognized that particular presence.

No reason to elevate Maul's status. He was a bad ass that Obi whacked, thereby passing his trials "by fire" as it were.

[NIGHTTRAVELER]

The persistence of "the dark side clouds everything" covers the force sense. Same goes for Palpy, knowone senses him either.

All the other things make sense. Sure, it doesn't mean thats what WILL happen, but if it did turn out that way, you couldn't really argue the peices of the puzzle.

[Jedi D'oh]

If the pieces fit, it doesn't matter what story they use. Yoda could be Maul, Palpy, and Sifo. If they told it right and made it fit, who could deny it?

I doubt the dark side would cloud a familiar presence. Look at the way Yoda looks at Palpy in his office, he knows something's up with this guy. Sifo, being on the council, would be VERY familiar to Quigon.

[NIGHTTRAVELER]

I understand what your saying, but the difference is that there are plenty of things that point in the direction of this theory, and nothing in the direction of Yoda being palpy/syfo/sidious. I know your not saying that he is, but there is nothing in the films that would would support that.

In other words, 2/3 of the prequel story has been told, and there is valid evidence that this could be the case.

[Justin]

This whole adamance over this reminds me of the people who were so adamant that Boba Fett was really a girl. We all know what happened there, don't we?

[Frendon]

NO Justin!!! what have you done!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif now they are going to argue about that, and use "obvious hints" as boba having long hair on AOTC!!

[MegoHulk]

Especially if he looks like his clone which is the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. (quoted by DBLDWN)


Huh???? Now you think he's a clone and not two different people? Anyways, you can't have one be Sifo Dyas, Sidious and palpatine. Thats what your saying right, or did I read it wrong? SO then how can Sidious be Sifo Dyas and still be Palpys clone? That makes no sense at all...everyone would recognize Palpy as Sifo Dyas then. Someone help me out here style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

[Shoma Barad]

I stand by my opinion- Dooku, having left the order, realises that not long ago a Jedi (Syfo-Dyas) died, and uses his name to place an order for an army, as he is told to do by his master, Darth Sidious/Palpatine.

Either that, or Dooku Kills Sifo-Dyas, leaves the Jedi order (having been recruited by Darth Sidious/Palpatine), then places the order for the army, again at the request of Palpy/Sidious.

I don't believe that Palpy is a clone of sidious, or vice-versa, as I've said before. It doesn't make sense to me. The subtle hints Lucas has used aren't to throw people off- they are meant to lead you to the conclusion they lead you to: Sidious and Palpatine are one and the same.

There are plenty of books out there which support this, not the least of which being books on mythic structure. Palpatine is the false hero, Sidious is the villain, but they are often, within narratives, the same character.

Lucas uses so much of that narrative theory, that it would be ridiculous to veer from it. And making Palpy/Sidious a clone of himself would do exactly that.

~~Shoma

[Justin]

I think having Palpatine and Darth Didious be the same person makes the story more interesting, and that's basically the point. Having one be a clone of the other would be pretty lame.

[Darth Vegas]

I can assure you with all confidence that Sifo Dyas is Palpatine/Sidious. There is alot more than the similarity of the name that points to this.

In the script and novel, Taun We told Obi-Wan that Sifo Dyas, when he was there on Kamino, told them that a man called Darth Tyrannus would arrive soon with Jango Fett.

Also, Prime Minister Lama Su said that Sifo Dyas hand picked Jango Fett himself, while indeed it was Darth Tyrannus that recruited Fett in person, his master Sifo Dyas (a.k.a. Palpatine/Sidious) choose Jango even over what the Kaminoans thought would be the best choice, a Jedi Knight.

The idea of either Sidiuos or Tyrannus posing as Sifo Dyas, is completely apsurd, there is no evidencce that points in that direction, while there is plenty that points to Sidious/Palpatine actually being Sifo Dyas.

Anything else is just confusing.

You must understand these things: a Jedi did not order the clone army with the best intentions of the Republic in mind, Sifo Dyas was at Kamino and ordered the army in person, and the Kaminoans know that the man who brought Jango Fett to Kamino was Darth Tyrannus, a completely different person.


The army and the war are just another part of Palpatine's grand scheme.

With that said, there is no other conclusion, Palpatine/Sidious has to be Sifo Dyas.

There are plenty of explanations as to why the Jedi do not recognize Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo anymore.

"The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision my friend. Several hundred senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called, Darth Sidious."

If the Jedi can't sense that Palpatine is the Dark Lord of the Sith, then obviously, they wouldn't sense that he formerly was Sifo Dyas.

_____________________________________________

For those of you who refuse to believe the obvious truth that Palpatine is Sidious. Perhaps you should watch TPM more closely.

The same balcony that Sidious and Maul are walking on as they look over the city, appears right outside of Palpatine's apartment window twice later on in the film, at the first meeting in Palpatine's apartment before they proceed to the Senate, and right before Queen Amidala announces she is returning to Naboo.

[Javen]

This thread is still going? You know he is the same person.

[James]

He most definitely is the same person:

In TPM, Mace said:

"who was killed, the master or the apprentice?"

Then the camerra went to focus on Palpy.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/evil.gif

[Obi-Stu]

When TPM first came out, I spent alot of time trying to convince people that Sidious and Palpatine were the same
person.

Now after AOTC I find my self trying to convince the same people that they might not be the same...

Roll on 2005!

[Shoma Barad]

If sidious/palpatine is syfo-dyas, don't you think the Jedi would recognise that the former Jedi is the supreme chancellor? Also, don't you think the jedi would realise that the supreme chancellor who used to be a Jedi who was killed, is in fact, alive?

If Palpatine and Sidious are the same person (which they are), then they/he cannot be Syfo-Dyas.

Why not? because the Jedi's ability to use the Force is diminished, but they can still SEE. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

~~Shoma

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Nov 13 2002, 10:54 PM
In the script and novel, Taun We told Obi-Wan that Sifo Dyas, when he was there on Kamino, told them that a man called Darth Tyrannus would arrive soon with Jango Fett.
This isn't evidence. It could still be Sidious simply using the name Sifo-Dyas. Also, I don't remember it ever being stated in the novel that someone going by the name Sifo-Dyas was actually on Kamino. Could you quote the passage exactly from the novel so I can see what you're referring to?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Also, Prime Minister Lama Su said that Sifo Dyas hand picked Jango Fett himself, while indeed it was Darth Tyrannus that recruited Fett in person, his master Sifo Dyas (a.k.a. Palpatine/Sidious) choose Jango even over what the Kaminoans thought would be the best choice, a Jedi Knight.[/b][/quote]
Again, there's no evidence here of Sifo-Dyas being Palpatine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Sifo Dyas was at Kamino and ordered the army in person, and the Kaminoans know that the man who brought Jango Fett to Kamino was Darth Tyrannus, a completely different person.
[/b][/quote]

Jango Fett didn't need to be brought to Kamino. He has a ship of his own. There was never mention of Tyrannus ever being on Kamino. As for Sifo-Dyas being there, again, could you quote the exact part of the novel that says that?

[Darth Vegas]

Borg Matrix, in the script an novel Taun We said that Sifo Dyas told them a man called Darth Tyrannus would soon arive with Jango Fett, this is during that scene in the Fett's apartment.

There is no evidence at all that suggests someone possed as Sifo Dyas, all of the evidence points to the fact that Sifo Dyas himself ordered the army in person.

If that is true, than Sifo Dyas has to be Sidious.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If sidious/palpatine is syfo-dyas, don't you think the Jedi would recognise that the former Jedi is the supreme chancellor? Also, don't you think the jedi would realise that the supreme chancellor who used to be a Jedi who was killed, is in fact, alive?

If Palpatine and Sidious are the same person (which they are), then they/he cannot be Syfo-Dyas.

Why not? because the Jedi's ability to use the Force is diminished, but they can still SEE.[/b][/quote]

Shoma, there are plenty of ways Sifo could have disguised himself. Cosmetic surgery, a realistic flesh-like mask, perhaps he always wore his hood covering his face and the Jedi weren't really sure what he looked like, maybe he's a changeling?

It may even be possible that Sidious and Palpatine are not the same person, in a sense.

Ten years ago, Sifo Dyas dissapeared, and at the request of the Senate, he ordered the clone army.

It just so happens that around the same time, Palpatine became the Supreme Chancellor, and Count Dooku left the Jedi Order.

That has to be more than just a coinsidence.

It is a very strong possibilty that Sifo/Sidious murdered Palpatine and stole hi s identity.

Sidious' scheme to take over the in began in TPM when he used the Trade Federaton's invasion of Naboo to become Chancelor, and just after that Sifo Dyas ordered the clone army at the requst of the Senate, and Count Dooku, who had just recently left the Jedi order, became Sidious' new apprentice.

It is not just coinsidence.

As Qui-Gon said: "Nothing happens by accident."

All the events that are proceeding are part of Sidious' sheme.

Sidious had to have ordered the army himself, and at the same time, Sifo Dyas in fact did order the army at the request of the Senate.

Conclusion: Sidious is Sifo Dyas.

[Xandal]

Darth Tyranus is Sifo Dyas.

I say this with great confidence. My reason for this is quite acceptable, I think.

Palpy has recruted Darth Tyranus. Palpy who is Darth Sidious, ordered Tyranus to order the creation of a clone army.

This because Tyranus could still present himself as a Jedi to the Kamino.

[spaceman2386]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'>duh</font> there isn't enough time in the next movie to kill Sidious off and stick Palpatine in.

[Darth Vegas]

Xandal, Darth Tyrannus is Count Dooku, not Sifo Dyas.

According to the script and the novel, both Sifo Dyas an Darth Tyranus had been to Kamino.

Either Sifo Dyas is Sidious, or the rule of two is bogus.

It clearly states in AOTC that Sifo Dyas ordered the clone army a the request of the senate.

I already explained all this, read my post up there clearly.

Spaceman, the wouldn't need to kill off Sidious/Sifo Dyas, because he is Palpatine, or at least his taken over his identity

Dbldwn, if you get a good look atmy post up there give a response. I finally see what your point, it's jut too obvious that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person and thats that, there has to be more too it, and I think the only possible explanation is that Sifo/Sidious killed the real Palpy and tookover his identiym just after he mysteriously dissapeared.

[Justin]

Neither Darth Sidious or Cout Dooku are Syfo-Dias.

Darth Sidious used the name of Syfo-Dias to place the order for the clones. Whether or not he killed him to use his name, or he took advantage of Syfo-Dias's death is anyone's guess.


The reason I know that it was Sidious, not Dooku, who was masquerading as Syfo-Dias, is that the Kaminoans were expecting Syfo-Dias's apprentice, or whatever, which would have been Count Dooku.