Darth Sidious/Palpatine (Emperor, Chancellor, and Senator)

[MegoHulk]

I see where this argument is going now....but Sifo Dyas is not Sidious. Sidious may have posed as Sifo but he's not REALLY him. Why? Because Palpy is Sidious...and if thats the truth then Sifo could not be Sidious because the Jedi and Senate would recognize him. Let's not be silly and start saying he had cosmetic surgery or he's using a hologram...GL like to get from point A to point B in a straight as line as possible. To venture off and try explain a sub plot where we learn Sifo is sidious and palpy and he's using a hologram....well that would just bog things down and not really help the story. Look at the stuff GL cut out of his movies...stuff that really could have been important to character development , but he wants to save time for the action. We won't see a a lengthy explanation about Sifo...maybe a brief line about how Sidious killed him and used his name or something.

[Darth Vegas]

I don't think so, because Sifo Dyas, according to the Kaminoans, ordered the army at the reqeust of the senate, he must have had documentation.


Also, we do not know that Sifo Dyas is dead, Obi-Wan said, "I was under the impression that he was killed before that." He was not certain about his death, and we didn't get an answer from Mace or Obi-Wan.

We don't even know how long ago Sifo supposedly "died", and when he was on the council, he was a leadng member of the council, at the time it was probably a completely different Council.

There are many many ways that Sifo would not be recognized by the Jedi today, as I already listed.

It's just too obvious that Palpy and Sidious are the same person, there has to be more to it than that, some of you will be in for a big surprise come 2005.

[Jedi D'oh]

Bond, I read all your posts and think you are reading way to deep in this.

Palpatine/Sidious had been around longer than TPM. He just didn't appear a few days before the events in TPM with a fully trained apprentice out of nowhere.

When Obi asks Jango about Sifo, he says he was recruited by a man named Tyranus. IF Dooku was posing as Sifo, why reveal it to Jango? He doesn't need to know. If PALPY posed as Sifo, than who is to be the wiser? The Kaminoans had no idea who was who. As I stated in another post, i doubt they did a background check.

The similarity of names is a weak and lame argument as the names of Anakin and Dooku has no similarities to their Sith names.

The plastic surgury idea? C'mon dude. Think about it for a second. Maybe you just have to much time on your hands. I don't know.

Again, I don't think Palpy/Sifo are the same. I beleive one of the two (Palpy/Dooku) POSED as Sifo. While there may be no hard evidence for this, there is no hard evidence against it either, just personal opinion.

[Darth Vegas]

Apparantly you did not read my posts.

In the script and the novel of AOTC it states that while Sifo Dyas was at Kamino he told the prime minister that a man called Darth Tyrannus would soon arive with Jango Fett.

Count Dooku did not pose as Sifo Dyas.

That is hard evidence, because both Tyrannus and Sifo were at Kamino at one point or another.

Also it clearly states in the film, quote Obi-Wan, "They say that Master Sifo Dyas placed the order for the clones at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago."

We have every reason to believe that Sidious and Sifo Dyas are the same person.

It is obvious that you really did not even read my posts very clearly.

I listed cosmetic surgery along with several other ways that Sifo could concele himself from the Jedi, not that I actually think that's how it happened, but it is possible.

You'll see that I am right about this in 2005, or I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.

This is one thing I am 100% sure is going to be revealed in Episode 3, and all the evidence backs this claim over any other.

[Jedi D'oh]

The "script and novel," as you are so fond of saying, ARE NOT CANON. The movie is the only real basis for ideas. I could give you plenty of reasons that Palpy/Sidious are the same, and Sifo/Sidious are not, but they come from the EU and CANNOT be used in these arguments.

Just because Sifo was at Kamino means that he HAS to be Sidious? It is that inconceivable that he killed Sifo and took the name as his identity? Again, do you think the cloners did a background check on Sifo? They wouldn't have known the difference scince they work in secret anyway.

You have shown me the only hard evidence(which I use loosely) is that Dooku did not pose as Sifo. OK, I'll give that one to you. Show me that Sidious did not pose. I don't think you can. He easily could have told them he was Sifo and the senate and Jedi requested this army. As Dexter said, money matters to them. If Sidious gave them a huge amount of credits, why would they question anything?

And on a sidenote, just because one disagrees with your ideas does not mean they do not read your posts well. I read them over a couple of times before responding, so there's no reason to be arrogant.

[Darth Vegas]

Excuse me?

The script most certainly is cannon, especially the final shooting script, which is where that information came from, the script is basically the movie on paper.


And yes, I do think the Kaminoans are very cautios before creating an army for someone, I gauruntee you that they confirmed that Sifo was really Sifo before they placed the order and that he was authorized by the Senate to do so, as it was the Senate who comissioned Sifo to order the army. They don't do things like that without proper documentation.

[Jedi D'oh]

Ummmmm....Palpy's a Sith. He manipulates anything to get what he wants. But ooops...you said it was so it MUST be true. Whatever.

And the script is not PURE canon because the lines and ideas you quote from the script were not in the movie.

The senate had no knowledge of the secret army (due to Palpy's manipulations) because he says after Jar-Jar motions to grant him emergency powers, "I will create a Grand Army of the Rebuplic." Not, "OK, thanks guys! By the way, remember that whole Military Creation Act we were going to vote on, I decided to make an army in secret so it doesn't matter anyway."

[conron_montyn23]

Palpy not being Sidious, is like saying Mothma is Padme, totally absurd. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Justin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I gauruntee you that they confirmed that Sifo was really Sifo before they placed the order and that he was authorized by the Senate to do so, as it was the Senate who comissioned Sifo to order the army. They don't do things like that without proper documentation.[/b][/quote]

This is a pretty big assumption. You have no idea how the Kaminoans go about their business, but you're claiming that you do.

If the Kaminoans were really so into security and verification like you say, they would have contacted the Supreme Chancellor to be sure that the order came from the Senate.

What is the question here? That Sidious/Palpatine was actually the jedi master Syfo-Dias, or that he was merely posing as him?

[Jedi D'oh]

Yes, that is the question here. Bond claims to know the outcome without any real hard proof EITHER way. My last post I believe puts it pretty well.

[Jedi D'oh]

Bond, I just read your last post in the "Republic and the Clone Army" thread in this forum. Reread that post. You condtrdict yourself here in this thread by saying the Kaminoans would have cheked with the senate about the order of the clones and there you state that NOONE in the republic (senate included i would assume) knew of the army.

If you are going to argue points with people and tell them how right you are and so sure of what's going to happen, at least keep the same theories and don't switch the ideas around so you can sound intelligent
and be taking seriously. It looks bad when you have the same topic and different explanations for each of them.

Just wanted to point that out so maybe you'll think before you post and make sure your theories gel.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by conron_montyn23@Nov 15 2002, 11:15 AM
Palpy not being Sidious, is like saying Mothma is Padme, totally absurd. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif
That may be the most immature and ignornant post I have ever read on this site.

None of us knows anything for sure, including you, and yet you still say that people's opinions are absurd.

The only thing that is absurd is your attitude. If you're going to disagree do it with some class, not like a little punk.

[Darth Vegas]

You people are taking the issue with Sifo Dyas and the ordering of the clones, and the erasing of Kamino fromthe Jedi archives really lightly.

Perhaps you should watch AOTC with the commentary on, GL make a pretty big deal about it, and said that it will be fully explained in Episode 3.

____________________________________

Jedi-d'oh, I did not contradict myself, Isaid that most likely the Kaminoans would have required some official documentation, to show that Sifo is who he said he was, and that the Senate really did request the army be ordered.

In my post in the thread you mentioned, I wrote that no one in the Repulic knew about the army except for Palpatine. Being that in the case I am stating, Sidious/Palpatine (be he merely posing as Palptine, or actually be him) is Sifo Dyas and he really did order the army in person.

The army was placed after Palpatine became Supreme Chancellor, if he is Sifo Dyas, than he could easily have ordered the army with the consent of the Senate, being that he is the Supreme Chancelor he actually could have forged the documents, or used mind tricks. He then coud have easily traveled to Kamino and ordered the army, under his real name, Sifo Dyas.

So you see, really I did not contradict myself, Imerely did not state my own case.

The fact is not that Sifo Dyas is Sidious/Palpatine, it's that more evidence points toward that than any other theory, and that I firmly belive they are one ine the same, because I have full confidence on my thoughts and my theories.

________________________________________

As for you Justin, in the real world men with big bucks can't just pay for army and voila. I made no claim about knowing how the Kaminoans run their business, I said I gauruntee you that they are cautios about who they are dealing with, it's only logic, an when someone gauruntee's something, it usually means it's not absolue, you might just get you money back.

Before the Trade Federation, the Banking Clan, the Commerce Guilds, and the Techno Union Army joined the Separatists, they all signed a treaty, legal documetation handing thei armies over to Count Dooku, who is well knon as the Count of Serreno, he's a politician, he was making a new order, it wasn't like they just gave the armies over to him for no reason, they had to have thought things through first, and we see in the one scene in AOTC, that they did.

There is no reason to believe that te Kaminoans would be careless enough to give any old joe with money an army. It's ludicrious, no one would do that, especially not a society who's chief means of commerce is creating clone armies, it's their business profession, they are not some black market organization.

However, they do seem a little too trustworthy in that they continued creating the army, when ten years had passed without communication. But not careless so much that they would create the army without some authorization.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Nov 15 2002, 12:30 PM
Borg Matrix, in the script an novel Taun We said that Sifo Dyas told them a man called Darth Tyrannus would soon arive with Jango Fett, this is during that scene in the Fett's apartment.
You've mentioned several times that it's in there, but that doesn't match with what I remember of the novel. I don't own (I checked it out at a library sometime back), so I can't lookup exactly what you're referring to.

I've read the book twice in the past, and don't recall any mention of Sifo-Dyas ever being on Kamino, nor do I remember Tyrannus bringing Fett anywhere. Fett himself said that he's never heard of Sifo-Dyas and that he was hired on some moon.

If you have the book, couldn't you just post the dialogue in which it's said that Sifo-Dyas was on Kamino and that Tyrannus brought Fett to Kamino?

And I still don't see how any of this is "hard evidence" for Sidious being Sifo-Dyas.

[conron_montyn23]

there are CERTAIN PEOPLE in these forums that dont laugh at a joke, or even take a joke! ok laugh style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif ! make ur hard-knock life a lil better.
(bitterness can cause cancer)

[DblDwn]

Personally I do not have a "hard knock life" and I can laugh with the best of them but just because I choose to not laugh at your rudeness and the immaturity with which you present yourself leads you to label me, and whoever else, and that does nothing but add support to what I say.

[Justin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>in the real world men with big bucks can't just pay for army and voila. [/b][/quote]

Well we aren't talking about the real world, are we?

First of all, this is taking place in the Star Wars univers, where anything is possible.

Second, the Kaminoans are an alien race who would do things entirely different than the way we would.

Just look at the difference between us and, say, China. Different civilizations with very different lifestyles, government, rules, regulations, and practices.

[Jedi D'oh]

There is no way the senate knew about the army. If they did, the vote on the whole Military Creation Act would not be an issue. The only reason a senator mentions the clone army is because he is in the select few with the Jedi when that info is relayed in Palpy's office.

Again, if a JEDI came to the Kaminoans with a faked hologram as proof, what reason have they to be suspicious? Sidious could have easily used the name of Sifo as an alias and ordered the army. Scince you like to quote the movie so much, Palpy tells Dooku at the end when Dooku tells of the war starting, that all is going as planned.

As for taking it lightly.....this movie is generally made with kids in mind along with the general public, not fanboys. It's not as deep and subplotted as you would like to imagine. There are hidden messages sure, but it's not that intricate.

Dooku was in the Jedi order. Just before he left the order to fully help out Palpidious, the stuff that was in AOTC was just set up. Kamino, being so far out in the rim, would not be missed from the archives. Dooku then erases said files, thereby insuring secrecy.

Posing as Sifo-Dyas, a jedi recently killed, Palpidious meets with the cloners and orders army. Noone is the wiser because "the shroud of the dark side" is at hand. Then it ends with Palpy manipulating all to happen in AOTC as far as starting the war.

Dooku had everything to do with getting the clones made on Kamino while Sidious (as Palpy) had everything to do with manipulating the senate.

[Darth Vegas]

Shoma,

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Why not? because the Jedi's ability to use the Force is diminished, but they can still SEE. [/b][/quote]

I wouldn't be so sure................

Quote Count Dooku, "The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision, several hundred senators are now under the control of a Sith Lord called, Darth Sidious."

[MegoHulk]

And that Sith lord is Palpatine...the head of the senate. He's slowly turning systems to his side...and I'd say he's in a perfect position to do it.

[Isomorph]

he told obi-wan about Sidious controlling the senate because I believe he was obviously trying to get obi-wan on his side to do away with Palpatine i.e Sidious so he could gain all the power for himself just as when Vader tried to get luke to join him so they could get rid of the emperor and rule the galaxy.I agree with Jedi D'oh's comment.

[Brian]

I just felt compelled to post this pic, just for my old debate nemesis, Dbldwn. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif Changed your mind yet, pal?

[Darth Vegas]

OB-Gates, I'm compelled to inform you that GL never said Palpatine is Sidious, he said the Emporer as we saw him in ESB is Darth Sidious (note that even after the SE the Credits for ESB just say "The Emporer" and so do the credits for ROTJ).

[echoseven]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 31 2003, 02:08 PM
OB-Gates, I'm compelled to inform you that GL never said Palpatine is Sidious, he said the Emporer as we saw him in ESB is Darth Sidious (note that even after the SE the Credits for ESB just say "The Emporer" and so do the credits for ROTJ).
You are correct, GL said that Sidious is the Emporer....
However, the OFFICIAL SW Calendar has "Emperor Palpatine" as the month of February... that closes any doubt... Sidious is the Emperor... the Emperor is Palpatine, Palpatine is Sidious... case closed....

I will post the pic if someone tells me how.

[Darth Vegas]

Yeah well there's more to it than just that.

[echoseven]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 31 2003, 03:40 PM
Yeah well there's more to it than just that.
How do you figure?
If Emperor Palpatine is not Darth Sideous, than GL flat out lied....

[Darth Vegas]

I didn't say they weren't the "same" person, I said there's more to it than that.

Check out the last few posts in the "Sorting the rumors" thread, you'll get the picture. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Brian]

Originally posted by echoseven+Mar 31 2003, 03:33 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(echoseven @ Mar 31 2003, 03:33 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 31 2003, 02:08 PM
OB-Gates, I'm compelled to inform you that GL never said Palpatine is Sidious, he said the Emporer as we saw him in ESB is Darth Sidious (note that even after the SE the Credits for ESB just say "The Emporer" and so do the credits for ROTJ).
You are correct, GL said that Sidious is the Emporer....
However, the OFFICIAL SW Calendar has "Emperor Palpatine" as the month of February... that closes any doubt... Sidious is the Emperor... the Emperor is Palpatine, Palpatine is Sidious... case closed....

I will post the pic if someone tells me how. [/b][/quote]
Scan the pic and upload it to the site. There's a button in the posting page that says "browse." Click on it and load the pic. Then post. It's that simple.

[echoseven]

O-B-Gates...
Thanks... As soon as I get home from work in about an hour and a half, I will scan it and post it...
thanks

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by echoseven+Mar 31 2003, 12:33 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(echoseven @ Mar 31 2003, 12:33 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 31 2003, 02:08 PM
OB-Gates, I'm compelled to inform you that GL never said Palpatine is Sidious, he said the Emporer as we saw him in ESB is Darth Sidious (note that even after the SE the Credits for ESB just say "The Emporer" and so do the credits for ROTJ).
You are correct, GL said that Sidious is the Emporer....
However, the OFFICIAL SW Calendar has "Emperor Palpatine" as the month of February... that closes any doubt... Sidious is the Emperor... the Emperor is Palpatine, Palpatine is Sidious... case closed....

I will post the pic if someone tells me how. [/b][/quote]
I'm not saying Palpatine isn't Sidious, that's a no brainer, I'm saying it could work out a number of ways, clones, cosmetics, shapeshifting, Palpatine I think is just a royal name, I don't think Sidious had a life on Naboo grew up there and everything before becoming a Sith, it doesn't make sense.

Besides, if you listen to the dvd commentaries, interviews with GL, if you read the scripts and so forth, you'd have noticed that GL refers to the Sith Lords as fallen Jedi several times.

At any rate, we don't know anything about Sidious and Palpatine, how he bacame a Sith, how he became a Chancellor.

[echoseven]

I agree that we don't know how Palpatine became Sidious... My question is will we ever find out?
I don't think GL will get too complicated, so I figure he will never explain it.

[echoseven]

:0

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by echoseven@Mar 31 2003, 01:20 PM
I agree that we don't know how Palpatine became Sidious... My question is will we ever find out?
I don't think GL will get too complicated, so I figure he will never explain it.
Why wouldn't you think that? He did a good job of explaining Vader, it was completely unexpected, short and to the point, GL doesn't need alot of time to explain how Sifo-Dyas, uhhm I mean Palpatine became Darth Sidious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[echoseven]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Mar 31 2003, 05:33 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Mar 31 2003, 05:33 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-echoseven@Mar 31 2003, 01:20 PM
I agree that we don't know how Palpatine became Sidious... My question is will we ever find out?
I don't think GL will get too complicated, so I figure he will never explain it.
Why wouldn't you think that? He did a good job of explaining Vader, it was completely unexpected, short and to the point, GL doesn't need alot of time to explain how Sifo-Dyas, uhhm I mean Palpatine became Darth Sidious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif [/b][/quote]
I thought about Syfo being Palpatine (or vise versa..)
Here's the problem...
Palpatine is a senator and then Chancellor at the time of EP I... Obi asks Mace and Yoda about Syfo's death 10 years ago, roughly the same time as EPI... Would no one on the jedi council recognize Palpatine as Syfo? (I'm not trying to be smart, I'm asking to hear your theory)

You have to figure that Palpatine had a master at one time. (you could argue that he discovered a Sith Holocron and took it up himself, but that would mean that there were no Sith for some time, since he was "starting it all up")
You have to figure that Palpatine was a Sith long before EP I... He had to have time to train Darth Maul as his apprentice as well as taking under consideration his own training. I would guess that he was a Sith before he was a politician...

[Brian]

That's right. I keep forgetting that he trained Maul up from a young lad (see Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter). I am starting to think that Palpy was trained by some other Sith Lord. Hopefully, we'll get to see this in Episode III. If not, it will make for great EU stories. Either way, I'll be happy!

[Darth Fabulous]

I get the feeling that Sidious is self trained. The Jedi thought the Sith were extinct, and maybe they were until Sidious stumbled across some ancient Sith artifact or handbook or something.

[Justin]

No, Palpatine definitely had a master. The whole point of the two-sith rule is to keep the Sith order alive.

[echoseven]

I would agree that the odds are that he had a master for the very reason Justin said... but the Sith remained hidden until Palpatine sent out Maul...

[Darth Vegas]

The rule of two is EU.

[echoseven]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 31 2003, 07:24 PM
The rule of two is EU.
how do you figure?
Yoda said in EPI, there are always 2, no more, no less.. EPI is not the EU.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by echoseven@Mar 31 2003, 03:09 PM
I thought about Syfo being Palpatine (or vise versa..)
Here's the problem...
Palpatine is a senator and then Chancellor at the time of EP I... Obi asks Mace and Yoda about Syfo's death 10 years ago, roughly the same time as EPI... Would no one on the jedi council recognize Palpatine as Syfo? (I'm not trying to be smart, I'm asking to hear your theory)


I already told you what I thought about that and explained exactly how he could hide his identity.

We don't know if he was a Jedi ten years ago, or a council member at the time when he "died", Obi-Wan said he was under the impression that he was killed ten years, he was never absolutely sure of it, and niether Yoda or Mace could answer.

For all we know Sifo-Dyas might have served off-world after his term as a council member, or he could've been a Jedi many many years ago.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by echoseven+Mar 31 2003, 04:25 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(echoseven @ Mar 31 2003, 04:25 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 31 2003, 07:24 PM
The rule of two is EU.
how do you figure?
Yoda said in EPI, there are always 2, no more, no less.. EPI is not the EU. [/b][/quote]
The whole thing of how that came to be was EU, it's never stated in the films that Darth Bane started it and all that jazz.

[echoseven]

Good point... they didn't say he served on the council.

[echoseven]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Mar 31 2003, 07:28 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Mar 31 2003, 07:28 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by echoseven@Mar 31 2003, 04:25 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 31 2003, 07:24 PM
The rule of two is EU.
how do you figure?
Yoda said in EPI, there are always 2, no more, no less.. EPI is not the EU.
The whole thing of how that came to be was EU, it's never stated in the films that Darth Bane started it and all that jazz. [/b][/quote]
Oh, right, I agree with that, but Yoda did say what he said.

[Darth Vegas]

Yeah I know that.

What I find strange is how Yoda would know that.

[P-Ray]

I don't remember it all that well, but in the EPI book by Terry Brooks, it speaks of Darth Bane and how he started the Sith. Didn,t it say that a bunch of Sith killed each other off for power and Sidious restarted the Sith after 1000 years with just two at a time.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by P-Ray@Mar 31 2003, 04:46 PM
I don't remember it all that well, but in the EPI book by Terry Brooks, it speaks of Darth Bane and how he started the Sith. Didn,t it say that a bunch of Sith killed each other off for power and Sidious restarted the Sith after 1000 years with just two at a time.
No it said Darth Bane reconstructed the Sith order, but again that still EU it's not in the movies.

Though I think it's more in line with the saga then the other Sith crap that's come out of the EU.

[P-Ray]

So basically what you,re saying is GL is going to do it his way. That's cool. That's what I want anyhow.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by P-Ray@Mar 31 2003, 04:54 PM
So basically what you,re saying is GL is going to do it way. That's cool. That's what I want anyhow.
No I didn't say anything of the sort.

[P-Ray]

What I mean by that is even though it is in the book from the movie, GL is not going to hold to what it says but do it the way he decides. Sith history is discussed in the EP.I novel, but that doesn't necessarily have to be GL's way for the next movie if he doesn,t want it to. And what I,m saying is that is what I personally want.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 12:24 AM
The rule of two is EU.
Bond, Lucas explains the Two-Sith Rule in the audio commentary on the TPM DVD.

[echoseven]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 31 2003, 07:35 PM
Yeah I know that.

What I find strange is how Yoda would know that.
Yeah,, good point. I know they won't spend a great deal of time on it in EP III, but I hope that's what the "suprise" turns out to be, we get some enlighning about Sidious and Yoda and what and how Yoda knows what he does and where Sidious came from... I think they could easily resolve that in 5 minutes or less in the movie... that would be cool.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin+Mar 31 2003, 07:29 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Justin @ Mar 31 2003, 07:29 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 12:24 AM
The rule of two is EU.
Bond, Lucas explains the Two-Sith Rule in the audio commentary on the TPM DVD. [/b][/quote]
I just watched through both commentaries last night for the upteenth time, he never even mentions, unless I missed something, tell me the scene where Lucas explains this Justin, would ya?

Echoseven, I think they need a bit more than five minutes to explain Palpatine (he's the true antagonist in the saga), Anakin isn't going to consume the whole 2 1/2 hours (+?) of screentime. A half hour for the beginnning of the film final battle of the Clone Wars and Mace's death, and then everything else revolves around the Empire rising, Palpatine becoming the Emporer, the Jedi discovering who ordered the clones and erased the archives, Anakin becoming Vader, the Jedi Purge, Qui-Gon's return and all the jazz about Jedi dissapearing and ghosts and stuff, and the twins being born and everyone ending up where they are in ANH.

In that time there is at least 10 minutes of explaining Palpatine/Sidous (Sifo-Dyas), and besides they can include that along with the Jedi discovering who ordered the clones and stuff. And that's all cut in several scenes, not just one big hunk where they explain it all.

Everything else is just functional scenes.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 03:56 AM

I just watched through both commentaries last night for the upteenth time, he never even mentions, unless I missed something, tell me the scene where Lucas explains this Justin, would ya?


I believe it's over the scene where Darth Maul comes to Tattooine.

[Darth Vegas]

Sorry, I'm afraid I have to tell you the section your talking about does not exsist.

[Brian]

You guys are going to make he have to dust off the DVDs and listen to the commentaries...

[Darth Ferior]

I believe that Palpatine and Sidious are the same

We know Palpatine becomes a sith lord, he is one in the original trilogy. Sidious is clearly played by the same actor who plays Palpatine, you can tell by the voice, but he is never mentioned in the credits.

The reason why Sidious does not appear in the credits, is that GL wishes to hide the identity of Sidious, so that we do not find out his true identity until Episode III

Palpatine started the Battle of Naboo by leading both sides. As Sidious, he led the attack on Naboo, and as Palpatine he defended it. The purpose of this was to prove just how ineffective the Republic really was in the time of crisis, and to push the Senate into replacing the Chancellor. Palpatine is also on both sides of the Clone Wars, this time to make himself emperor.

[echoseven]

Bond... I would love for then to spend more than 5 minutes on Palpatine's background... I was only pointing out that time restraints should not be a factor for something as important. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Jacen Solo]

I agree, and I feel that (while there is a whole lot of stuff that ought to be explained) there are two major things that will be covered ... Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, and Palpatine's exposure as Darth Sidious and the resulting fall of the Republic.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 12:35 AM
Yeah I know that.

What I find strange is how Yoda would know that.
In any case, he does know. And having said what he did, their clearly is a rule of two.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Darth Ferior@Apr 1 2003, 12:48 AM
The reason why Sidious does not appear in the credits, is that GL wishes to hide the identity of Sidious, so that we do not find out his true identity until Episode III
I don't think so, it has to be something else, cause GL already stated on the dvd the Darth Sidious is the evil Emporer of the OT.

[leandar]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Apr 1 2003, 02:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Apr 1 2003, 02:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Darth Ferior@Apr 1 2003, 12:48 AM
The reason why Sidious does not appear in the credits, is that GL wishes to hide the identity of Sidious, so that we do not find out his true identity until Episode III
I don't think so, it has to be something else, cause GL already stated on the dvd the Darth Sidious is the evil Emporer of the OT. [/b][/quote]
That's right, and since Darth Sidious and Palpatine are the same person, it's supposed to be kind of a mystery thing. Except that the mystery has already been given away.

Rick McCallum said in 1999 that they were the same man, and as you have pointed out, Lucas called Sidious the Emperor. That should be enough proof that they're one and the same. Not to mention that both parts were played by Ian McDiarmid.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by leandar@Apr 1 2003, 12:47 PM
That's right, and since Darth Sidious and Palpatine are the same person, it's supposed to be kind of a mystery thing. Except that the mystery has already been given away.
I don't think so, the mystery is something else. IMO it's how Sidious and Sifo-Dyas are connected, I say they're the same man, he's somehow concealing his identity, and Palpatine is like a royal Naboo name.

I doubt Palpatine is either human or actually grew up on Naboo.

[Justin]

That's so incredibly outlandish, I'm at a total loss for words.

[Darth Vegas]

Yeah well it's better that way.

[leandar]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 02:54 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think so, the mystery is something else. IMO it's how Sidious and Sifo-Dyas are connected, I say they're the same man, he's somehow concealing his identity, and Palpatine is like a royal Naboo name.

I doubt Palpatine is either human or actually grew up on Naboo.

[/b][/quote]
Well, I think the answer to that is rather simple. Here it is: Seeing as Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace Windu all recognized the name of the Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, then what most likely happened is this. They said he was killed. I don't think it too outlandish to think that Sidious could have had Sifo-Dyas killed, (and if it was ten years previous, then presumably he was killed by Darth Maul on orders from Sidious), and then Sidious just impersonated Sifo-Dyas to make the order for the clone army.

[Darth Vegas]

I don't think Sidious killed Sifo, I'm saying he is Sifo.

The name is too similar to be a coincidence, even further, the original script had the name as "Sido-Dyas" and he was supposed to an imposter and not a real Jedi, well all they did was change one single letter and make him a Jedi. And even further, there was some deleted dialogue where Prime Minister Lama Su during the scene told Obi-Wan that the army wasn't personally for Sifo, but for the Republic, and that the Kaminoans were against Count Dooku and the Seperatists movement, which to me basically says, Count Dooku didn't go to Kamino and order the army.

In that early script, Sido-Dyas is supposed to be the name Sidious uses to order the army, and he wasn't a real Jedi, but now that person is a real Jedi, when Obi-Wan asks Mace and Yoda about this in that early script, Mace states that that Jedi never exsisted, and then asks Yoda "I wonder who this imposter Sido-Dyas could be" it later ties in with Dooku's interrogation of Obi-Wan, where he stresses the words to Obi-Wan DARTH SIDIOUS.

So IMO, you can expect to have Sidious/Palpatine revealed to be Sifo-Dyas.

BTW, Obi-Wan states in the film that "He was under the impression.." that Sifo-Dyas was killed, he doesn't know for sure how or when it happened which to me pretty much says it didn't happen, it's the sma plot device GL used in the Classic Trilogy, we're led to believe that this Jedi was killed, but it going to turn out, IMO, that the Jedi actually is the Sith Lord.

[DblDwn]

Bond, is it just me or are you also getting tired of repeating yourself when no one bothers to pay attention the the things we say the first 50 times we say it?

[Darth Vegas]

I am soooo tired of it, but somebodies got to spread the truth man!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 09:08 PM
I am soooo tired of it, but somebodies got to spread the truth man!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif
I hear what you're saying bro

[Brian]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 11:08 PM
I am soooo tired of it, but somebodies got to spread the truth man!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif
I tire of this debate. It reminds me of how exhausting it was this summer debating this frivilous point. Only Episode III will tell.


Ok, I did start it up again. Sue me! On second thought, don't sue me. I don't have any money. ???

[Justin]

Originally posted by leandar@Apr 2 2003, 12:04 AM
Well, I think the answer to that is rather simple. Here it is: Seeing as Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace Windu all recognized the name of the Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, then what most likely happened is this. They said he was killed. I don't think it too outlandish to think that Sidious could have had Sifo-Dyas killed, (and if it was ten years previous, then presumably he was killed by Darth Maul on orders from Sidious), and then Sidious just impersonated Sifo-Dyas to make the order for the clone army.
I think that's exactly the case. They said Sifo died about that same time, and we know Darth Maul was basically Palpatine's hit man. 2+2=4.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 04:27 AM
Sorry, I'm afraid I have to tell you the section your talking about does not exsist.
Maybe it's in one of the featurettes. I'm sure there's a part where George Lucas is talking about the Two-Sith Rule over the scene where you see Darth Maul walking out of his ship on Tattooine.

[Darth Vegas]

What you are referring to is an interview with GL that was conducted during production on Episode 2 in the Homestead Garage set, it appears on the recent release of ANH on vhs.

And George does not mention the two sith rule as we hear about it in the EU (that Darth Bane started that rule) or explain how Yoda knows this, he says that the Sith Knights were started by a Jedi Knight that was seduced to the Dark Side of the Force, and they never made a move to take over the Galaxy until TPM.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin+Apr 1 2003, 08:27 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Justin @ Apr 1 2003, 08:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-leandar@Apr 2 2003, 12:04 AM
Well, I think the answer to that is rather simple. Here it is: Seeing as Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace Windu all recognized the name of the Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, then what most likely happened is this. They said he was killed. I don't think it too outlandish to think that Sidious could have had Sifo-Dyas killed, (and if it was ten years previous, then presumably he was killed by Darth Maul on orders from Sidious), and then Sidious just impersonated Sifo-Dyas to make the order for the clone army.
I think that's exactly the case. They said Sifo died about that same time, and we know Darth Maul was basically Palpatine's hit man. 2+2=4. [/b][/quote]
That's exactly what GL wants you to believe, just like he wanted you to believe that Anakin Skywalker was killed by Darth Vader.

[Justin]

You're wrong Bond. I know what I was referring to, and I know it was on the TPM DVD. What we have here is a repeat of the Wolverine's mask argument.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES+Apr 1 2003, 08:17 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(O-B-GATES @ Apr 1 2003, 08:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 11:08 PM
I am soooo tired of it, but somebodies got to spread the truth man!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif
I tire of this debate. It reminds me of how exhausting it was this summer debating this frivilous point. Only Episode III will tell.


Ok, I did start it up again. Sue me! On second thought, don't sue me. I don't have any money. ??? [/b][/quote]
That's exactly how I feel OBG, but if someone's gonna be talking about this in a way contradictory to what I believe will happen, then I gotta be here to represent.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 1 2003, 08:47 PM
You're wrong Bond. I know what I was referring to, and I know it was on the TPM DVD. What we have here is a repeat of the Wolverine's mask argument.
No what we have here is I have been going over the entire AOTC and TPM dvd for two days scrapping over the material on there and it is not to be found because it's not on there, it's on the latest release of ANH, for REAL dude.

[Justin]

The reason you're wrong is because I haven't seen the newest release of ANH, and can't refer to something I haven't seen. Just watch, I'll look over the TPM DVD and find it, and you'll look stupid again like you did over Wolverine's mask.

[Darth Vegas]

Well I know I'm right because I do have that recent release of ANH, and I already looked over the TPM dvd.

It's ok to be wrong Justin.

But if you gotta look stupid by making yourself check it out, then so be it.

[echoseven]

I have the newest release that Bond is talking about and the interview is there.
I agree that the "explanation" of the 2 sith rule comes only in the EU, however, the 2 sith rule is legit because Yoda himself confirms it in EP I.

I also agree that just becuse Mace, Yoda and Obi think Syfo died, that doesn't mean that he really did. I am convinced that there will be a "shocking revalation" in EP III and it will probably be about Sidious' past.

[Justin]

No, Lucas mentions it on the TPM DVD and talks about how the Sith try to kill eachother off, and that's what was going on between Vader and Palpatine in the OT.

[Darth Vegas]

Well there is but one possibility Justin, that you bought the dvd more recently and it has that same interview from ANH, because what you are describing is on there, or it's an easter egg, or entirely different interview that was added later on after the dvd was released.

But I've already looked through my dvd, which I bought the day it was released, and it's not to be found.

[echoseven]

OK.. I can verify what Justin is saying, I have seen that interview on my DVD... I have a more recent EP I DVD.. GL does point out that Vader is trying to recruit Luke to unseat Palpatine and so on...

[Darth Vegas]

That's not on my dvd.

[Darth_Badman]

Okay so what about this? Could Sifo-dyas and Qui-Gon be the same person? Apparently they both died at about the same time. Qui-Gon had always been stated of having discontent with the Senate and Dooku being his former Master could have some influence. They apparently think along the same lines just different extremes. By the way Palpatine and Sidious are the same.

[Darth Vegas]

No they can't because Sifo-Dyas was at one time a leading member f the Jedi Council, Sifo was a Jedi, so he wasn't Qui-Gon.

[Justin]

I don't know Bond, Badman's theory makes about as much sense as yours.

By the way, there is only one DVD for TPM. There are no different versions of it.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 2 2003, 07:46 PM
I don't know Bond, Badman's theory makes about as much sense as yours.
No it's not Justin.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>By the way, there is only one DVD for TPM. There are no different versions of it.[/b][/quote]

I'm well aware of that, doesn't mean they didn't add any content to it.

My dvd does not have this interview you are talking about.

So do the math.

[Justin]

Yes it does mean they didn't add any content. And the correct wording should be "no it doesn't, Justin" not "no it's not."

Bond, you haven't provided any evidence that makes your claim any more reallistic than Darth Badman's, and the same logic you are applying to discredit his can also be used against yours.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 2 2003, 08:02 PM
Bond, you haven't provided any evidence that makes your claim any more reallistic than Darth Badman's, and the same logic you are applying to discredit his can also be used against yours.
Uh yeah, it's a film called "Attack of the Clones" where it's mentioned that there was a Jedi called Sifo-Dyas that was a Jedi Council member, Qui-Gon was neither Sifo-Dyas or ever on the Council.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 2 2003, 08:02 PM
Yes it does mean they didn't add any content.
Well then as I stated before, this interview your talking about does not exsist on the TPM dvd, it's nowhere to be found on mine.

[justafan]

Think of this, though, Bond, and I'm not taking sides, I'm just thinking this through. Doesn't Obi tell Qui something like "Not again, if you hadn't done (something) you'd be on the council?"? It doesn't mean that he never was on the council, just isn't at that point in time. You've established that sometimes important plot points occur off screen, and we are to assume they happened (the entire "three eyed goat dude" discussion), so couldn't Syfo have been a prior name for Qui Gon (which is not "Quite Gone")? Perhaps Qui Gon used to be on the council, did something extraordinary (perhaps having sided with his mentor Dooky), but rather than leave the order just stepped down from the council. If the Sith can have multiple names, is it a stretch that the Jedi could, too?

I don't know, I can see this happening. It makes as much sense to me as the Syfo/Siduous argument.

(And on a personal note, it fits in with my theory as to what will happen in E3. I think I might do some fan fiction. We'll see style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif )

[echoseven]

Obi's comment to Qui Gon said "you would be on the council by now"

I took it as Qui Gon had never been on the council ONLY because of some of his past decisions, not that he had been on the council and stepped down.

[justafan]

Thanks!

The "by now" does change the context a bit, doesn't it? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif

[Brian]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 2 2003, 01:50 PM
No, Lucas mentions it on the TPM DVD and talks about how the Sith try to kill eachother off, and that's what was going on between Vader and Palpatine in the OT.
In Justin's defense, I kind of remember hearing something like this too, but I have no idea where I heard it. I think it was on TPM DVD, but I'm really not sure.

[echoseven]

Originally posted by justafan@Apr 3 2003, 12:47 PM
Thanks!

The "by now" does change the context a bit, doesn't it? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif
I didn't mean to get in the middle but I thought it was useful... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by justafan@Apr 3 2003, 07:52 AM
Think of this, though, Bond, and I'm not taking sides, I'm just thinking this through. Doesn't Obi tell Qui something like "Not again, if you hadn't done (something) you'd be on the council?"?
No he says,

"If you would just follow the code you would be on the council."

He was never on the council, Sifo-Dyas is not Qui-Gon, he's a completely different Jedi who was a leading member of the Jedi Council, which Qui-Gon as not.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 3 2003, 08:38 PM
No he says,

"If you would just follow the code you would be on the council."
If that's what was said, then the "by now" part isn't in there and Justafan could be right. Maybe Qui-gon was on the council at some point, but did something that forced him to step down. That's no more outlandish than the idea of Sidious being Sifo-dyas.

[Darth Vegas]

Qui-Gon was never on the Council and he wasn't Sifo-Dyas, cause the army wasn't ordered until after TPM, Count Dooku wasn't yet Sidious' apprentice by the end of TPM.

for more uneeded proof >>>click here<<< (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/quigonjinn/index.html)

[Brian]

Originally posted by borgmatrix+Apr 3 2003, 06:45 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(borgmatrix @ Apr 3 2003, 06:45 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 3 2003, 08:38 PM
No he says,

"If you would just follow the code you would be on the council."
If that's what was said, then the "by now" part isn't in there and Justafan could be right. Maybe Qui-gon was on the council at some point, but did something that forced him to step down. That's no more outlandish than the idea of Sidious being Sifo-dyas. [/b][/quote]
That's kind of "far fetched" for lack of a more appropriate adjective. Qui-Gon was never on the Jedi Council. How could one even think that? Well, I know of several ways, but none of them makes any sense.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 3 2003, 11:53 PM
That's kind of "far fetched" for lack of a more appropriate adjective. Qui-Gon was never on the Jedi Council. How could one even think that? Well, I know of several ways, but none of them makes any sense.
I agree it's farfetched. My point was that Sidious being Sifo-dyas is just as outlandish, like I said before.

[Brian]

Originally posted by borgmatrix+Apr 3 2003, 07:30 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(borgmatrix @ Apr 3 2003, 07:30 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-O-B-GATES@Apr 3 2003, 11:53 PM
That's kind of "far fetched" for lack of a more appropriate adjective. Qui-Gon was never on the Jedi Council. How could one even think that? Well, I know of several ways, but none of them makes any sense.
I agree it's farfetched. My point was that Sidious being Sifo-dyas is just farfetched. [/b][/quote]
Naw, it's not that far fetched, even though I don't agree with it.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 4 2003, 12:31 AM
Naw, it's not that far fetched, even though I don't agree with it.
I would say it is, considering that Sidious is Palpatine. That would mean Sifo-dyas is Chancellor Palpatine. That would then require an explanation of Palpatine being a shape-shifter or using holo-technology so that the council members wouldn't recognize him. Is that really less farfetched that Qui-gon being a former council member?

[Brian]

Ah yeah. Hehe...


Even still, there is just too much that we don't know about Palpy/Sidious to completely discredit that theory.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 4 2003, 12:48 AM
Ah yeah. Hehe...


Even still, there is just too much that we don't know about Palpy/Sidious to completely discredit that theory.
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif I suppose. It is possible. I just find that to be a little too much.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Apr 3 2003, 04:42 PM
That would then require an explanation of Palpatine being a shape-shifter or using holo-technology so that the council members wouldn't recognize him.
Which isn't far-fetched at all really.

They did design an completely alien version of Palpatine for ROTJ after we had already seen him in the Empire Strikes Back, the concept was entirely different, though it was never used, I think that at least says that GL did have that idea, Palpatine being a shapeshifter:

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Apr 3 2003, 04:42 PM
Is that really less farfetched that Qui-gon being a former council member?
Yes it is, because Sifo-Dyas can be Sidious/Palpatine without messing around with the time frame of the order, Qui-Gon cannot be Sifo-Dyas because Count Dooku wasn't yet Sidious apprentice until after TPM, and he hired Fett, so obviously Qui-Gon is not Sifo-Dyas because, well it's a no-brainer that Palpatine ordered the army.

Do the math. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Brian]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Apr 3 2003, 07:54 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Apr 3 2003, 07:54 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-borgmatrix@Apr 3 2003, 04:42 PM
That would then require an explanation of Palpatine being a shape-shifter or using holo-technology so that the council members wouldn't recognize him.
Which isn't far-fetched at all really.

They did design an completely alien version of Palpatine for ROTJ after we had already seen him in the Empire Strikes Back, the concept was entirely different, though it was never used, I think that at least syas that GL did have that idea, Palpatine being a shapeshifter: [/b][/quote]
Where did the idea of a "shapeshifter" come from? Who said anything about that? And Palpy could've originally been an alien, but that got scrapped, much like Ewoks looking like Wookiees. I don't that's relevent to this argument. It's not like it was a deleted scene. I mean, Dooku was supposed to be a chick with a bald head and use 2 curved-handle lightsabers (just so happens that that concept was used to develop Asajj Ventress, an EU character.) That doesn't mean that the idea is relevent to Christopher Lee's portrayal of Count Dooku, now does it? Nope. It holds as much water a a collander in the dessert.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 3 2003, 05:00 PM
Where did the idea of a "shapeshifter" come from? Who said anything about that? And Palpy could've originally been an alien, but that got scrapped, much like Ewoks looking like Wookiees.
OBG, that concept for Palpatine was created AFTER WE HAD ALREADY SEEN HIM IN THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

There are two possibilities, either they were planning on replacing the Emporer in ESB with this new design after ROTJ was released, or they were planning on making him a shapeshifter, either way the plan was apparently abandoned, well maybe, Vader's fortress on Coruscant surrounded by lava was abandoned too, (and Palpainte's fortress which was also supposed to be on Coruscant and so far underground it was surrounded by lava note the strange flowing red stuff at the bottom of Coruscant as seen in "AOTC"), but George told the designers that it would be good for something later on.

It just seems pretty strange that now we have the shpeshifter concept actually in the films wth Zam Wesell, and we have this whole Palpatine/Sidious and Sifo-Dyas thing.

Look at the picture for yourself it's completely different then Palpatine in The Empire Strikes Back, yet it was made afterward.

[leandar]

Originally posted by echoseven@Apr 2 2003, 10:38 AM

I agree that the "explanation" of the 2 sith rule comes only in the EU, however, the 2 sith rule is legit because Yoda himself confirms it in EP I.

Well, considering Yoda said the same thing in Episode I. "Always two there are, no more no less," kinda validates the rule as more than EU. I understand what you're saying about the Darth Bane stuff coming from the Episode I novel, but according to the author, that info. came direct from Lucas himself, so I think that validates it completely in any case.

[leandar]

Whoops, double post. Sorry.

[Brian]

Bond, I still don't know were this "shapeshifter" business stems from....

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by leandar@Apr 3 2003, 06:44 PM
I understand what you're saying about the Darth Bane stuff coming from the Episode I novel, but according to the author, that info. came direct from Lucas himself, so I think that validates it completely in any case.
Uh huh right, supply a link or something then. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Bond, I still don't know were this "shapeshifter" business stems from.... [/b][/quote]

OBG, I explained it already, Zam Wesell, Sifo-Dyas, and that concept painting.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 4 2003, 02:48 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Bond, I still don't know were this "shapeshifter" business stems from....

OBG, I explained it already, Zam Wesell, Sifo-Dyas, and that concept painting. [/b][/quote]
Oh, so I COMPLETELY disagree with you now. Whenever you bring up the CONCEPT painting, I will HAVE to disagree with you. I just don't think unused concept art holds water in this discussion. If that were the case, we could say a lot of stuff about Episode III that we know won't happen based on unused concept art. By the way, what the hell are we discussing?

[leandar]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Apr 4 2003, 01:48 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Apr 4 2003, 01:48 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-leandar@Apr 3 2003, 06:44 PM
I understand what you're saying about the Darth Bane stuff coming from the Episode I novel, but according to the author, that info. came direct from Lucas himself, so I think that validates it completely in any case.
Uh huh right, supply a link or something then. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

[/b][/quote]
Well, dude. I'd love to but since I read that in a magazine, (I think it was Starlog. Either that or the Star Wars magazine), I don't know of a link. Not everything I read is online. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Apr 3 2003, 04:37 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Apr 3 2003, 04:37 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Justin@Apr 2 2003, 08:02 PM
Bond, you haven't provided any evidence that makes your claim any more reallistic than Darth Badman's, and the same logic you are applying to discredit his can also be used against yours.
Uh yeah, it's a film called "Attack of the Clones" where it's mentioned that there was a Jedi called Sifo-Dyas that was a Jedi Council member, Qui-Gon was neither Sifo-Dyas or ever on the Council. [/b][/quote]
Uh yeah, well, Palpatine a.k.a. Darth Sidious was neither Sifo-Dyas or ever on the Jedi Council.

See, it's ok for you to make wild illogical claims, but when someone else does it you smack it down in a hurry if it doesn't agree with yours. By your logic, Quigon could be a shapeshifter, as you assert Palpatine must be, and that's how he was able to be Sifo-Dyas.

It's ridiculous, but there's no more or less logic to support or disprove it as there is for your theory.

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Yes it is, because Sifo-Dyas can be Sidious/Palpatine without messing around with the time frame of the order, Qui-Gon cannot be Sifo-Dyas because Count Dooku wasn't yet Sidious apprentice until after TPM, and he hired Fett, so obviously Qui-Gon is not Sifo-Dyas because, well it's a no-brainer that Palpatine ordered the army.

Do the math.
[/b][/quote]

Ok. I'll admit that I'm not enlightened, and, that honestly I have read enough arguments on too many threads about syfo=sid. But if I remember semi-correctly, wasn't the argument used that syfo was killed almost ten years ago, which meant maybe more maybe less? So mathematically, Qui Gon could fit the bill.

And, is it any more far fetched to believe that with all the manipulation Palpy does that he doesn't have someone waiting in the wings to be his next apprentice? I mean, really, he would't put a want ad in the paper, and I'm certain folks weren't knocking on his door to come in. He demonstrates that he acknowledges others with potential in ROTJ during his dicussions with Vader. So why would it NOT make sense that he has Tyrannus already getting ready and maybe even testing him with assignements? What's the worst that would have happened? The same thing with Vader and Luke--the two would duel it out and the most powerfull would prevail, and be the apprentice. Heck, he's already doing it with Anakin! Can anyone argue with me that Palpy is NOT grooming Anakin at this very moment?!

To me, it makes sense that Qui Gon, under the tutilige of a soon to be Sith apprentice, who happens to have the same political views as Dooky, and a tendancy to act either outside or real close to the Jedi code, would do something while a Jedi apprentice, like get involved with someone leaving the order (perhaps order clones?)? Obi wan wouldn't be around yet, since Qui Gon was an apprentice to Dooky. This theory is no more far fetched than the entire shape shifter Palpy/Sid/Syfo love triangle. So the plot is discovered, Dooky leaves the order, but because of his age and naivette, Qui Gon remains and completes his training under a more rigourous teacher, such as Mace or Yoda even.

Or maybe even better--and this is just for $hits and giggles, Qui Gon was a shapeshifter, and used to be Syfo, but faked Syfo's death and became Qui Gon. Hey, it could happen!

God bless you, Bond, for having some really great arguments, but I think on this one you are stretching and pasting to make things fit your side. There's no proof for mine, either, but I'm saying it makes as much sense and has as much potential to be the truth as yours. GL said that everything we need to know for E3 is in E2. That's where I'm getting my info from....

[justafan]

Honest to God, Justin's post about Qui Gon being a shapeshifter wasn't there when I typed mine out!

Too spooky!

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 4 2003, 11:12 AM
Uh yeah, well, Palpatine a.k.a. Darth Sidious was neither Sifo-Dyas or ever on the Jedi Council.
You don't know that. And no it's not illogical. It's not necessarily the way it's going to go, but it's not too far out there, GL's done the same thing before afterall.

I'd appreciate your comments alot more Justin if you actaully gave some evidence one way or the other, rather than debating like a 13 years old, that's stupid, that's not gonna happen, etc. etc.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, so I COMPLETELY disagree with you now. Whenever you bring up the CONCEPT painting, I will HAVE to disagree with you. I just don't think unused concept art holds water in this discussion. If that were the case, we could say a lot of stuff about Episode III that we know won't happen based on unused concept art. By the way, what the hell are we discussing?[/b][/quote]

Concepts designed for the Classic Trilogy that were unused are being used in the PT, and already have, the flying whale, the lava flowing at the bottom of Coruscant, etc. etc. Even Coruscant itself was something Ralph Mcquarrie designed for Return of the Jedi, and wasn't used until recently, so yes, it's a very relevent argument OBG.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Ok. I'll admit that I'm not enlightened, and, that honestly I have read enough arguments on too many threads about syfo=sid. But if I remember semi-correctly, wasn't the argument used that syfo was killed almost ten years ago, which meant maybe more maybe less? So mathematically, Qui Gon could fit the bill.[/b][/quote]

Uhh, no because Sifo-Dyas isn't necessarily dead for one thing
"...under the impression...", and Qui-Gon was killed before the Army was ordered, Count Dooku played a part in ordering the army, he hadn't left the order and become Sidious' new apprentice until after TPM.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by leandar+Apr 4 2003, 05:50 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(leandar @ Apr 4 2003, 05:50 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 4 2003, 01:48 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-leandar@Apr 3 2003, 06:44 PM
I understand what you're saying about the Darth Bane stuff coming from the Episode I novel, but according to the author, that info. came direct from Lucas himself, so I think that validates it completely in any case.
Uh huh right, supply a link or something then. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif


Well, dude. I'd love to but since I read that in a magazine, (I think it was Starlog. Either that or the Star Wars magazine), I don't know of a link. Not everything I read is online. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif [/b][/quote]
Uh huh, than tell me the issue.

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Uhh, no because Sifo-Dyas isn't necessarily dead for one thing
"...under the impression...", and Qui-Gon was killed before the Army was ordered, Count Dooku played a part in ordering the army, he hadn't left the order and become Sidious' new apprentice until after TPM.

[/b][/quote]

Ok, Bond, I'll call you on the carpet on this one. Please provide definitive proof that Sifo Dyas isn't "dead", either actually or from a certain point of view, and that QuiGon was killed BEFORE the ordering of the Clone army, and that Dooky was absolutely out of the order when he took part in it. Does he HAVE to be an apprentice to do things that Palpy wants him to do? Anakin certainly is doing things for Palpy, and he's not an apprentice. Yet.

Unless you can provide me scenes, novelization, or words of GL, I won't back down that my theory holds no water and your theory is absolute.

I can't provide any of the things I ask you to. All I am doing is speculating on what we have been told. To me, my theory makes sense, it fits the time frame, and would answer a lot of questions. Yours does, too. But unless you can definitively document your standpoint, please don't continue to say mine is no good simply because it doesn't fit your paradigm. My "evidence", so to speak, is taken from the same movies you and I both see. I don't have any outsider info--EU, Insider, etc. If there is something OFFICIAL (and I'm not saying EU is official style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif ), please point me in that direction so I may consider it and review my stance.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 4 2003, 10:05 PM
I'd appreciate your comments alot more Justin if you actaully gave some evidence one way or the other, rather than debating like a 13 years old, that's stupid, that's not gonna happen, etc. etc.
You aren't giving any evidence other than a concept painting from twenty years ago, which isn't really evidence, it's just a loose piece you're using for your great leaps of logic.

There were concept paintings of Luke as a girl. I guess that means Luke is able to spontaneously change sex, right? By the logic you're applying, it's perfectly reasonable.

[Darth Vegas]

Justin I've supplied alot more evidence then just an old concept painting, maybe you should try countering instead of dodging everything.

Your still missing the point about that peice.

IT WAS CREATED FOR RETURN OF THE JEDI AFTER WE HAD ALREADY SEEN THE EMPORER IN THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, AND THE CONCEPT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND OBVIOUSLY ALIEN.

By no means is that the basis of my idea here, not by a long shot, there's evidence in George's own words on the dvd commentaries, basically saying he wanted you to believe the obvious. There's more evidence in the film itself and in early drafts of AOTC that basically say somehow or another this Sifo-Dyas was Darth Sidious, maybe actually is Sidious.

You should try actually reading up on some of things me and a few others have presented as evidence in this case, it's just as strongly supported as what George wants you to believe for now.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by justafan@Apr 5 2003, 01:30 AM
Please provide definitive proof that Sifo Dyas isn't "dead", either actually or from a certain point of view, and that QuiGon was killed BEFORE the ordering of the Clone army, and that Dooky was absolutely out of the order when he took part in it. Does he HAVE to be an apprentice to do things that Palpy wants him to do? Anakin certainly is doing things for Palpy, and he's not an apprentice. Yet.
Uh please go watch Attack of the Clone's and The Phantom Menace again, it's all explained in the films. Thank you very much.

The army was ordered by Sidious and Dooku obviously, Dooku was Sidious' apprentice after Qui-Gon was already dead, you know after TPM.

And yes Dooku was Sidious apprentice at the time, hence, "I was recruited by a man called Tyrannus on one of the moons of Bogden."

The whole Dooku/Sidious thing is made amazingly clear at the end of AOTC, "I bring good news to you my Lord, the war has begun." "Excellent, everything is proceeding as I have planned." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

And Obi-Wan said, "......I was under the impression that he was killed......." which brings in alot of doubt whether or not Sifo is actually dead. And most the time in these sort of things it turns out the Jedi wasn't actually killed.

[Jacen Solo]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 5 2003, 06:30 PM
And Obi-Wan said, "......I was under the impression that he was killed......." which brings in alot of doubt whether or not Sifo is actually dead. And most the time in these sort of things it turns out the Jedi wasn't actually killed.
Good point, Bond. I think, though, that Obi-Wan wasn't in doubt of the fact that Sifo-Dyas was killed; he in fact told Lama Su that "Master Sifo-Dyas was killed nearly ten years ago." When he was talking to Yoda and Mace Windu, he did say "I was under the impression he was killed before then ..." which I believe meant that he knew Sifo-Dyas was killed but he wasn't sure when. This would then bring the question of whether or not Sifo-Dyas himself (not Sidious or Dooku) did order the army into doubt.

[Darth Vegas]

If he wasn't sure when than IMO he wasn't sure at all.

We're talking about a Jedi Council Member, someone very important, the Jedi would obviously know when and how this Jedi was killed if he was in fact killed and he is in fact dead.

[Justin]

Bond, concept paintings and early drafts don't mean jack. Originally, Darth Vader wasn't going to be Luke's father. So I guess that means Anakin doesn't become Darth Vader?

[Brian]

*Ahem* Darth Sidious = Palpatine. Thank you very much.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 5 2003, 05:27 PM
Bond, concept paintings and early drafts don't mean jack. Originally, Darth Vader wasn't going to be Luke's father. So I guess that means Anakin doesn't become Darth Vader?
Justin that's a completely retarded rebuttle, sorry but it is.

The concept painting does mean something, it means either GL was going to change Palaptine's look for no apparant reason, or Palaptine was a Shapeshifter, they don't just paint things on accident you know.

And as I said before, there are plenty of old "unused" concepts from the ot that are now being employed in the PT.

At any rate, Obi-Wan was still uncertain of Sifo's death, and the name was purposfully made similar to Sidious. As I already mentioned in the original draft of AOTC, Sifo-Dyas was Sido-Dyas and he was an imposter, obviously Sidious, so they changed it slightly, but not enough to completely say Sifo isn't Sidious.

So whether or not the concept painting means anything, which it does IMO, the theory stands firm.

[leandar]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Apr 4 2003, 04:06 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Apr 4 2003, 04:06 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by leandar@Apr 4 2003, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 4 2003, 01:48 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-leandar@Apr 3 2003, 06:44 PM
I understand what you're saying about the Darth Bane stuff coming from the Episode I novel, but according to the author, that info. came direct from Lucas himself, so I think that validates it completely in any case.
Uh huh right, supply a link or something then. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif


Well, dude. I'd love to but since I read that in a magazine, (I think it was Starlog. Either that or the Star Wars magazine), I don't know of a link. Not everything I read is online. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
Uh huh, than tell me the issue. [/b][/quote]
Dude, I wish I could. You do realize it's been like four years now. I don't remember which issue. Do you remember every magazine article you've ever read and where you read it?

[Darth Vegas]

I keep my magazines organized and in plastics, I have quiet a collection of Star Log and other magazines.

But from what I can find, GL has never mentioned Darth Bane at all, it's entirely EU.

According to what Lucas has actually stated, there were always only two Sith Lords at a time. According to Lucas himself, at least he said that in an interview. You can find that on the Episode 2 feature on the most recent release of A New Hope.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 6 2003, 04:48 AM
Justin that's a completely retarded rebuttle, sorry but it is.


No it's not. By your logic, it's perfectly reasonable. If anyone's making retarded statements it's you. No one believes your silly theory but Dbldwn.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>they don't just paint things on accident you know.[/b][/quote]

Yeah, but they don't use everything they paint. For example, Yoda isn't a little furry blue guy. Unless of course he's a shapeshifter.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin+Apr 5 2003, 09:21 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Justin @ Apr 5 2003, 09:21 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 6 2003, 04:48 AM
Justin that's a completely retarded rebuttle, sorry but it is.


No it's not. By your logic, it's perfectly reasonable. If anyone's making retarded statements it's you. No one believes your silly theory but Dbldwn. [/b][/quote]
Uh wrongo. Not that it matters, but you should get out more.

And no, my logic is folly.

What you said isn't reasonable, Sifo-Dyas being Sidious is, because it can work out that way without contridicting anything in the films, while say Qui-Gon being Sifo-Dyas just plain old CANNOT happen and won't, or your example of Darth Vader (which BTW isn't entirely true and doesn't apply in this instance what-so-ever).

And again, Justin, it's not the concept itself, it's the fact that they were thinking of somehow changing or adding to Palpatine's look, which is quiet obvious in that concept.

There's more to Palpatine than meets the eye or the ear.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 6 2003, 05:25 AM
you should get out more.


Ha! I get out plenty. Sorry, but not all my friends are Star Wars geeks who have nothing to do but argue about silly theories. I do that here because it's a Star Wars website, but when I get out I kind of talk about other things too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>they were thinking of somehow changing or adding to Palpatine's look[/b][/quote]

Yeah, but apparently they decided not to. They do that sometimes. In fact they decided not to make Luke a girl.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>There's more to Palpatine than meets the eye or the ear. [/b][/quote]

That's right. He's Darth Sidious.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 6 2003, 12:21 AM
Yeah, but they don't use everything they paint. For example, Yoda isn't a little furry blue guy. Unless of course he's a shapeshifter.
LMAO @ Justin!

[Brian]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 6 2003, 12:25 AM
And no, my logic is folly.
Sounds right to me. Hehe...

[Brian]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 6 2003, 12:25 AM
And again, Justin, it's not the concept itself, it's the fact that they were thinking of somehow changing or adding to Palpatine's look, which is quiet obvious in that concept.
But they did change his look. Palpatine the senator from Naboo looks quite different from Palpatine the emperor of the galaxy!

[Justin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>your example of Darth Vader (which BTW isn't entirely true and doesn't apply in this instance what-so-ever).[/b][/quote]

So you're saying Darth Vader was always intended to be Anakin Skywalker? That's BS. Early drafts (which you yourself put so much faith in) had Vader dying in ANH and had Anakin Skywalker appear to Luke in ESB in that same ghostly form Obi-Wan took. It does apply, because it shows that Lucas doesn't use every idea he comes up with, and often changes his mind.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Aug 18 2002, 08:17 PM
The Sith are all about deception, so they could easily do something like this. *Dooku ordering the clones makes perfect sense. *We know that he contacted Jango, so it fits well that he would also order the army. *He is working for Sidious, so I don't see what the problem is. *We know Sifo-dyas was a jedi master that is now dead, so if he himself didn't order it, then someone had to be posing as him. *And that would be either Sidious or Dooku.
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif Some old speculation I thought I'd bring up because of something mentioned over at T'bone's on the AOTC cut scenes section.

There is a definitive reason why Dooku couldn't order the clones that proves that Sidious either is Sifo or used his name, I say he is Sidious obviously, anyway the Kaminoans are against Count Dooku and his Seperatists movement, according to the deleted scenes mentioned>>>here<<< (http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/cut_scenes/ep2/sido_sifo_dyas.htm) (read the whole thing and you might be enlightened).

And besides this, Count Dooku is rather well known, the Kaminoans would probably recognize him, so that rules Count Dooku out.

Just thought I'd share that in case anyone is siding towards that theory.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 5 2003, 09:56 PM
Early drafts (which you yourself put so much faith in) had Vader dying in ANH and had Anakin Skywalker appear to Luke in ESB in that same ghostly form Obi-Wan took.
Those early drafts were not Star Wars as we know it, they were called "The adventures of the Starkiller" and they were very much different, so no your statement does not apply to what I'm saying here, because since Star Wars became a relity and not just a script, Darth Vader was the father, no matter what Obi-Wab told you, the clues are there in the films (notice how Owen is afraid of Luke becoming like his father, and the obvious distrust between Obi-Wan and Owen).

That painting proves that either Lucas was going to change Palpatine's look, or he had the idea of him being a shapeshifter, at least at some point. Because that painting was made after we already saw the Emporer in The Empire Strikes Back.

So I think it relevent.

In no means does it prove anything, but it is evidence in support of my case. And I am firmly opinionated on this matter, you aren't going to budge me. You might try coming at it from different angle, other than "old concepts mean sh*t" because in many cases they really do.

[Brian]

Good point, Bond. I hadn't noticed that before. I'm convinced that Palpadious personally orderd the Clone Army under ths guise of Sifo-Dyas. Or he sent Syfo-Dyas to do it (as a possibe apprentice?) and then had him killed (by Dooku or himself?).

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 5 2003, 10:04 PM
Or he sent Syfo-Dyas to do it (as a possibe apprentice?) and then had him killed (by Dooku or himself?).
Well that's a different take on it, a bit too complicated I would say, because the whole reason Dooku is Sidious' new apprentice, according to Lucas, is because he didn't have time to train a new one after Maul's death.

And Maul, well, he's not very outgoing, I don't think he'd manage a business deal very well.

I think the "two Sith" rule is rubbish anyway. So maybe, but highly unlikely.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 6 2003, 06:04 AM
Those early drafts were not Star Wars as we know it, they were called "The adventures of the Starkiller" and they were very much different, so no your statement does not apply to what I'm saying ehre, because since Star Wars became a relity and not just a script, Darth Vader was the father, no matter what Obi-Wab told you, the clues are there in the films (notice how Owen is afraid of Luke becoming like his father, and the obivous distrust between Obi-Wan and Owen).
Oh give me a break Bond, you're just using circular logic to keep anything that's contrary to your opinion from having any weight. The fact that Anakin Skywalker appeared to Luke from beyond the grave in a draft of ESB, which was obviously made after the Star Wars universe had been established, is a strong indicator that the idea wasn't there in the beginning.

The stuff with Owen saying he was afraid of Luke being like Anakin was originally that he didn't want Luke to be an adventurer. The distrust between Owen and Obi-Wan was because Owen didn't want Luke to go off in the galaxy and get himself into trouble, not that he was afraid he would turn to the dark side. Obi-Wan looked reluctant to tell Luke the truth because he was about to reveal some heavy things. The fact that Lucas later decided to make Anakin and Vader be the same person, it made those subtle things take on an even deeper meaning.

Think about this: Aunt Beru says "He's got too much of his father in him" in a fairly jovial manner, with a smile on her face. She was saying Anakin was an adventurer, and that Luke would turn out that way, not that Luke was going to end up turning evil because he was like Anakin.

Lucas changes his mind, I don't understand why that's so hard for people to accept.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 5 2003, 10:16 PM
Oh give me a break Bond, you're just using circular logic to keep anything that's contrary to your opinion from having any weight. The fact that Anakin Skywalker appeared to Luke from beyond the grave in a draft of ESB, which was obviously made after the Star Wars universe had been established, is a strong indicator that the idea wasn't there in the beginning.
Yeah well I havn't read that I have a couple old drafts of ESB, but nothing like that is in it. Of course, GL didn't write the script for ESB either, just the story, and he asked for several changes to the script, and was still displeased with several bits in the finished product.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about Justin: in Lucas' own "Revenge of the Jedi" script, he had Yoda as a ghost, using some sort of invisible shielding through the Force to block Palpatine's Force lightning much as Yoda did in AOTC, in that same scene in the "Revenge..." script, Palpatine threw a lightsaber to Vader for him to use, much as Obi-Wan threw his saber at Anakin in AOTC's for him to use. Several other things in that script and from production on ROTJ adn the other films also made thier may into the PT by way of TPM and AOTC, Coruscant is a big example of this, perhaps not the name, but the planet itself.

As often as he "changes" things, he also reincorporates ideas later on.

[Justin]

See? You're working to squash anything that upsets your paradigm of Lucas being perfect and knowing exactly what he wanted from the very get-go. The development of the screenplay for ESB mostly came out of story conferences between Lucas, Gary Kurtz, and Lawrence Kasdan, after Leigh Brackett died.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 5 2003, 10:28 PM
See? You're working to squash anything that upsets your paradigm of Lucas being perfect and knowing exactly what he wanted from the very get-go. The development of the screenplay for ESB mostly came out of story conferences between Lucas, Gary Kurtz, and Lawrence Kasdan, after Leigh Brackett died.
Yeah I'm sure it did, and it was probably around that time that the Anakin as a ghost thing was dropped too. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

I don't think Lucas is perfect, I think Star Wars is almost all he ever meant it to be, and I'm well aware of most of the changes that he did make.

I've never even heard of this Anakin as a ghost in ESB example, if you can give me a link to the script so I can read it for myself, or another reference, then I'll look into it.

But I do think you're going way off topic here Justin.

[Marbleman]

bond - though at first glance your sifo dias = sidious idea seems ridiculous, upon close inspection it is feasible. indeed, sifo dias would have to be either dooku or sidious, who else would order a clone army but those who wanted war? i do think you all are putting too much emphasis on old drafts and such, as lucas could do just about anything and is not tied to any previous statement or lack thereof.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by marbleman84@Apr 5 2003, 10:34 PM
i do think you all are putting too much emphasis on old drafts and such, as lucas could do just about anything and is not tied to any previous statement or lack thereof.
Yeah I think I may be too, but there isn't much else to speculate off of, so I might as well use all available information that I can. Besides Georgie keeps repeating himself in the PT anyway, bringing back used and unused ideas.

Thanks for your comments. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[JediBendu]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 6 2003, 06:31 AM
I don't think Lucas is perfect, I think Star Wars is almost all he ever meant it to be, and I'm well aware of most of the changes that he did make.


George Lucas is god, anything he touches is purified with the shining light of perfection, his words are the source of wonderous miracles of creation, he is the holder of dreams, the harbinger of imagination, the reason for our existence.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Apr 6 2003, 06:18 AM
George Lucas is god, anything he touches is purified with the shining light of perfection, his words are the source of wonderous miracles of creation, he is the holder of dreams, the harbinger of imagination, the reason for our existence.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif
AMEN. hehe. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Frendon]

that post is soo creepy..style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by JediBendu+Apr 6 2003, 03:18 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JediBendu @ Apr 6 2003, 03:18 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 6 2003, 06:31 AM
I don't think Lucas is perfect, I think Star Wars is almost all he ever meant it to be, and I'm well aware of most of the changes that he did make.


George Lucas is god, anything he touches is purified with the shining light of perfection, his words are the source of wonderous miracles of creation, he is the holder of dreams, the harbinger of imagination, the reason for our existence.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif [/b][/quote]
Oh yeah I forgot about that, 2nd JediBendu 3:16 style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Frendon]

When the Jedi killed the Sith Lords 1,000 prior to TPM, they seized all records of Sith teachings and locked them away deep in the Jedi archives. But how would Palpatine access these teachings and become a Sithlord? He would need some help from inside the Jedi Order. That would imply a traitor in the Jedi Order many years before TPM.... A Jedi Master higher up in the Order, but who? "Sifo-Dyas". With access to this information and such finely tuned skill with the Force, Palpatine taught himself... End of the Story, this is the most simple and the best way for all the mystery behind Sifo-Dyas, Sidious and Palpatine to work, at least that's the way I see it.

[Darth Vegas]

I agree with that Frendon, I've had similar thoughts myself about that.

Especially since Count Dooku is said to have learned about the Sith and the Dark Side in the same way, before meeting Sifodious, I mean uh Sidious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[Justin]

Frendon, are you saying Palpatine and Sifo-Dyas are the same person?

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 7 2003, 03:38 AM
Count Dooku is said to have learned about the Sith and the Dark Side in the same way, before meeting Sifodious, I mean uh Sidious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif
Where is that said?

[Darth Vegas]

Essential guide to Characters, and TOS. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

And a few bits from previous drafts of AOTC where the subject of holocrons came up.

[Frendon]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 6 2003, 10:38 PM
Frendon, are you saying Palpatine and Sifo-Dyas are the same person?
NOOOOOOOOO!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif, Palpatine had help from this Jedi Sifo-Dyas to retrieve the Sith archives, all behind the council's back, once he was skilled enough and Sifo was just an old Jedi, he disposed of him to get rid of all the evidence. Is just that simple, no shape shifting or anything of the sort.

[Darth Vegas]

Perhaps, but I somehow doubt that.

I think that's even more complicated, because now you have two characters to explain.

[Frendon]

yup but I think is easier to explain on screen:

Palpatine:
I was an ambitious Politician and that ambition was my path to the darkside..when the opportunity came by I took it with the help of that traitor a Jedi fascinated by the old art of the Sith, one of your own kind....Sifo Dyas, he gave me access to the Sith archives and I became a Sithlord and swear revenge on the Jedi!!!

that against:

Palpatine:
So I was born a shapeshifter, yup.. that's right.. I first took the form of a politician and planned a whole campaign to become supreme chancellor but I also was a Jedi that you knew, called Sifo-Dyas I was with you guys all the time..isn't that funny?? anyway I got tired of you guys and thought I should make you all believe I was dead, then I changed my shape again and lived a 2 way life, I was the supreme chancellor by day and Sidious by night and now I will rule the galaxy.

[Darth Vegas]

That's also against George referring to the Sith Lords as fallen Jedi. All of the Sith Lords that is. He talks about them that way in several interviews and on the dvd commentaries. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Of course we don't need much dialogue, all we need is for the Jedi to discover Palpatine is Sifo/Sidious and see Palpatine shapeshift, and really we don't even have to see that, we could just be told even off-screen, how Sifo could be Sidious/Palpatine.

It's not really that complicated or unbelievable because we know there is a mystery behind all of this, we don't know exactly what that is though.

That might take up 5-10 minutes at the most, and big deal, make it longer if you want George, it's the last Star Wars movie.

[Frendon]

Agreed, but don't you think it will seem dumb on-screen?? Palpatine is Sidious!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif ohh and he is a shapeshifter :0 and also Sifo-Dyas...:bored:

that's like: Luke I'm your father!!! and also Obi-Wan's brother!!! :bored:

[Darth Vegas]

No it's like Palpatine is just like a name he uses, sorta like Amidala, and Sifo-Dyas the shapeshifter is Sidious.

Which is entirely possible, remember these two lines:

Obi-Wan: "They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago." (at the time Palpatine was the Supreme Chancellor)

Count Dooku: "Hundreds of Senators are now under the control of a Sith Lord called, Darth SIDIOUS." (note the tone Dooku added to SIDIOUS

Sorta like Vader's mask helped to conceal his idenity, plus the Jedi can't see the future, etc etc.

I don't think it's too complicated, I think more or less, it's already partially explained, though still a mystery.

GL pretty much stated on the AOTC dvd commentary that he purposefully meant for us to believe the obvious so we wouldn't really ask questions about who order the clones and erased the archives. (paraphrased, see commentary during Jedi Archives scene)

[Justin]

Frendon, your theory makes sense.

What I've been able to peice together about the Sith from what's implied in the films and what Lucas said on the TPM and AOTC DVDs is this:

A Jedi turns to the Dark Side and convinces several other Jedi to do the same, staring the Sith Order. They rebel against the Jedi, but they're defeated, as much by the Jedi as themselves in their lust for power.

One Sith survived their annihilation, recognizing that they turn on eachother in order to be the most powerful, which is why the rest of the Sith were destroyed.

Because of this fact, he decides that the only way the Sith can survive is for there to only be two at a time, a master who trains an apprentice. When the master dies, the apprentice becomes the master and the cycle repeats itself.

This master/apprentice process continues for a thousand years (Lucas says this somewhere in the TPM DVD) until Darth Sidious (Palpatine) becomes the master, with Darth Maul as his apprentice. Sidious/Palpatine maneuvers himself into the Galactic Senate in order to gain power.

After Maul is killed and Sidious/Palpatine is elected Supreme Chancellor (the line Dooku says about the Senate being under the control of a Sith Lord indicates that Palpatine the Force to influence the majority of Senators to vote for him) he recruits Count Dooku into the Sith Order.

The Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, who was either killed through the machinations of the Sith (perhaps by Maul, since he was basically Palpatine's hitman) or from some other reason, dies (or has been dead for some time).

Palpatine and Dooku use the Sifo-Dyas identity to order the clone army from the Kaminoans. They most likely don't do this in person, because the Kaminoans might recognize Palpatine after he becomes Supreme Chancellor ("Hey, isn't the new Chancellor the same guy who ordered all those clones?").

This is also why they have no idea what the "Jedi" who's coming to inspect the clones will look like, and consequently they mistake Obi-Wan for him.

Before Dooku leaves the Jedi Order, he erases the records of Kamino from the Jedi Archives so he and Palpatine's plot won't be discovered.

Dooku, who is now Darth Tyranus, creates the Seperatist rebellion, paving the way for a war that will split the Galaxy apart. Palpatine is given supreme power over the Senate, putting him in the position to become the Emperor.

Using the clues that were given to us in TPM, AOTC and the comments made by George Lucas, this is the simplest, most direct, and most likely explanation for the Sith mystery and Sifo-Dyas' connection to it.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 6 2003, 08:33 PM
One Sith survived their annihilation, recognizing that they turn on eachother in order to be the most powerful, which is why the rest of the Sith were destroyed.
According to TOS, that Sith Lord was Darth Sidious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin@Apr 6 2003, 08:33 PM
Palpatine and Dooku use the Sifo-Dyas identity to order the clone army from the Kaminoans. They most likely don't do this in person, because the Kaminoans might recognize Palpatine after he becomes Supreme Chancellor ("Hey, isn't the new Chancellor the same guy who ordered all those clones?").
Wouldn't make a difference because the army was being created for the Republic at the request of the Senate by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas.

At least that's what we're told in Attack of the Clones. So go figure. :whatsthat:

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Apr 7 2003, 04:34 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Apr 7 2003, 04:34 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Justin@Apr 6 2003, 08:33 PM
One Sith survived their annihilation, recognizing that they turn on eachother in order to be the most powerful, which is why the rest of the Sith were destroyed.
According to TOS, that Sith Lord was Darth Sidious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif [/b][/quote]
That's not possible, because then Darth Sidious would have to be over a thousand years old, and the Two-Sith Rule wouldn't have been working the way Lucas said it did.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Apr 7 2003, 04:35 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Apr 7 2003, 04:35 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Justin@Apr 6 2003, 08:33 PM
Palpatine and Dooku use the Sifo-Dyas identity to order the clone army from the Kaminoans. They most likely don't do this in person, because the Kaminoans might recognize Palpatine after he becomes Supreme Chancellor ("Hey, isn't the new Chancellor the same guy who ordered all those clones?").
Wouldn't make a difference because the army was being created for the Republic at the request of the Senate by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas.

At least that's what we're told in Attack of the Clones. So go figure. :whatsthat: [/b][/quote]
No, Sifo-Dyas's name was most likely being used falsely by Palpatine in order to create the army. That's what's indicated in AOTC.

Besides, the whole intrigue behind Sifo-Dyas' possible murder by the Sith, and the Sith's definite use of his name is much more interesting that saying "Oh, he's just the same guy."

[Darth Vegas]

Well then Darth Sidious is 2000 years old because it does say that on TOS.

And I also remember a specific reference from GL in Vanity Fair back in 99' where he said Darth Sidious is the ancient evil, and the ultimate arch enemy of the Jedi.

>>>click here and read on!!!<<< (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthsidious/index.html)

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Justin+Apr 6 2003, 08:43 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Justin @ Apr 6 2003, 08:43 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 7 2003, 04:35 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Justin@Apr 6 2003, 08:33 PM
Palpatine and Dooku use the Sifo-Dyas identity to order the clone army from the Kaminoans. They most likely don't do this in person, because the Kaminoans might recognize Palpatine after he becomes Supreme Chancellor ("Hey, isn't the new Chancellor the same guy who ordered all those clones?").
Wouldn't make a difference because the army was being created for the Republic at the request of the Senate by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas.

At least that's what we're told in Attack of the Clones. So go figure. :whatsthat:
No, Sifo-Dyas's name was most likely being used falsely by Palpatine in order to create the army. That's what's indicated in AOTC. [/b][/quote]
Still the army was ordered for the Republic at the request of the Senate, so Sidious could very well have ordered the army in person.

Count Dooku couldnt because well, the Kaminoans are supposedly against Count Dooku.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Besides, the whole intrigue behind Sifo-Dyas' possible murder by the Sith, and the Sith's definite use of his name is much more interesting that saying "Oh, he's just the same guy."[/b][/quote]

In YOUR opinion. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth Vegas]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Besides, the whole intrigue behind Sifo-Dyas' possible murder by the Sith, and the Sith's definite use of his name is much more interesting that saying "Oh, he's just the same guy."[/b][/quote]

May I add that George Lucas did the exact opposite with Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker. So I suppose in your opinion that it would've been more interesting to see Anakin as a ghost in ESB and Vader as just the bad guy. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

As far as I'm concerned this whole Sifo-Dyas/Darth Sidious thing is the same plot device.

The Jedi wasn't killed by a Sith, the Jedi became a Sith.

[Frendon]

"The Sith order had been extinct for a millennium, yet somehow, two survived -- the Master Sidious, and his deadly apprentice, Darth Maul. In the waning years of the Republic, the Sith order returned, but Sidious was content to hide in the shadows. " I don't think that means that maul and Sidious are literally the survivors, so maul is also 1000 years old huh??, what they are trying to imply there is that somehow the sith order survived and right now the two current members are maul and sidious.

[Justin]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 7 2003, 04:43 AM
Well then Darth Sidious is 2000 years old because it does say that on TOS.

And I also remember a specific reference from GL in Vanity Fair back in 99' where he said Darth Sidious is the ancient evil, and the ultimate arch enemy of the Jedi.

>>>click here and read on!!!<<< (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthsidious/index.html)
Well Bond, I clicked that link, and then clicked the "Sith" link and it said this:

"One Sith had the cunning to survive. Darth Bane restructured the cult, so that there could only be two -- no more, no less -- a master, and an apprentice. Bane adopted cunning, subterfuge, and stealth as the fundamental tenets of the Sith order. Bane took an apprentice. When that apprentice succeeded him, that new Sith Lord would take an apprentice.

Thus, the Sith quietly continued for centuries, until the time of Darth Sidious and his apprentice, Darth Maul. "

Oops, looks like your plan to discredit me backfired.

[Darth Vegas]

Well then we got a problem, the Official Site and clearly contradicts itself. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[Justin]

No it doesn't. You just think it does, because you're misinterpreting the part about the Sith surviving. And if it were contradicting itself, which do you think would be more likely? The thing that's supported by Lucas himself or something else?

[Darth Vegas]

"The Sith order had been extinct for a millennium, yet somehow, two survived -- the Master Sidious, and his deadly apprentice, Darth Maul. In the waning years of the Republic, the Sith order returned, but Sidious was content to hide in the shadows. "

There no misinterpreting that Justin, it says two survived, Master Sidious and Darth Maul.

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Uh please go watch Attack of the Clone's and The Phantom Menace again, it's all explained in the films. Thank you very much.

[/b][/quote]

Bond, I have watched these movies, and they in no way prove anything of what I am questioning, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it. If we are to take literally what we are told in all the movies, then there wouldn't be such an uproar in ESB and ROTJ. Ben explains that Anakin was dead, from a certain point of view. Now I know that is used to explain away the entire I am you father thing, but why would Ben pull the whole point of view thing out of the air? There has to be a reason why he presents it in the way he does. I say he does it because he has seen it done by other Jedi. In this case, the entire death of Syfo. I don't see where there is a contradiction, if one keeps an open mind.

And, BTW, kind of a lame rebuttal. I would expect more detail and definative thoughts of your own, rather than just a referral back to the movies. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif Your track record tells me you can do better....

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Apr 5 2003, 03:30 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Apr 5 2003, 03:30 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-justafan@Apr 5 2003, 01:30 AM
Please provide definitive proof that Sifo Dyas isn't "dead", either actually or from a certain point of view, and that QuiGon was killed BEFORE the ordering of the Clone army, and that Dooky was absolutely out of the order when he took part in it. Does he HAVE to be an apprentice to do things that Palpy wants him to do? Anakin certainly is doing things for Palpy, and he's not an apprentice. Yet.
Uh please go watch Attack of the Clone's and The Phantom Menace again, it's all explained in the films. Thank you very much.

The army was ordered by Sidious and Dooku obviously, Dooku was Sidious' apprentice after Qui-Gon was already dead, you know after TPM.

And yes Dooku was Sidious apprentice at the time, hence, "I was recruited by a man called Tyrannus on one of the moons of Bogden."

The whole Dooku/Sidious thing is made amazingly clear at the end of AOTC, "I bring good news to you my Lord, the war has begun." "Excellent, everything is proceeding as I have planned." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif [/b][/quote]
I'm sorry but all of that is information from the films and it does prove what you said to be false.

The fact that Count Dooku was Sidious apprentice at the time of the order proves that Qui-Gon was not Sifo-Dyas.

"I was recruited by a man called Tyrannus on one of the moons of Bogden." - Jango Fett

So you see Count Dooku was Sidious' apprentice at the time, thus Qui-Gon couldn't have been Sifo-Dyas because he had died before that time, because Dooku couldn't have been Sidious' apprentice at an earlier time because at the time of Qui-Gon's death Sidious had just lost his first apprentice.

Unless Qui-Gon took a ship off of Naboo to Kamino while Obi-Wan and Maul we're fighting and Jango Fett was actaully hired by Jar Jar Binks, and then they came back right away and took their positions, than Qui-Gon was not this Sifo-Dyas. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[justafan]

I don't recall anything in the movie that says "I was hired by Tyrannus, who, btw, was really Darth tyrannus, an apprentice for one Darth Siduous", so the movie does NOT specifically disprove me. We don't know for certain that Tyrannus was apprentice at the time of the order--only that his name was Tyrannus. It is as unconfirmed as most everything else we have been discussing here--its possible, but then again, so is the opposite. If you have something that states that, please let me know. I don't think that its mandatory for one to be an apprentice before Palpy starts working with you.

Also, I wonder about the timing. I don't recall hearing anything about WHEN the clones were ordered. If you do, please advise. (That can get into another debate which I reserve the right to enter into at a later time. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif )Otherwise, Qui Gon could have been Syfo, and done quite a bit of things prior to the opening of TPM that we aren't privy to at this time.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by justafan@Apr 7 2003, 06:33 AM
I don't recall anything in the movie that says "I was hired by Tyrannus, who, btw, was really Darth tyrannus, an apprentice for one Darth Siduous", so the movie does NOT specifically disprove me. We don't know for certain that Tyrannus was apprentice at the time of the order--only that his name was Tyrannus. It is as unconfirmed as most everything else we have been discussing here--its possible, but then again, so is the opposite. If you have something that states that, please let me know. I don't think that its mandatory for one to be an apprentice before Palpy starts working with you.
He was Darth Tyrannus, than he was Sith and obviously not the master but the apprentice.

I suppose Darth Vader wasn't Palpatine's apprentice until The Empire Strikes Back because you never saw Vader with the Emporer and calling him master until then. So obviously Dooku wasn't Palpatine's apprentice until the end of AOTC whn they met together. :whatsthat:

Perhaps you should try putting on the dvd and listening to the commentary? It really is all explained in the movie FOR REAL.

Jango was recruited by Darth Tyrannus, Darth Tyrannus is Darth Sidious' new apprentice.

Darth Maul wasn't alive at the time which means Qui-Gon wasn't either. Which of course means Qui-Gon wasn't Sifo-Dyas.

Is it really that hard to understand? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Also, I wonder about the timing. I don't recall hearing anything about WHEN the clones were ordered. If you do, please advise.[/b][/quote]

"They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the senate almost ten years ago." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

"This group was created about ten years ago." - Prime Minister Lama SU refering to a near complete batch of clones.

I think you really need to go and watch the movie again dude.

Or you could just read >>>this<<< (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/index.html) carefully now. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Frendon]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 7 2003, 12:42 AM
"The Sith order had been extinct for a millennium, yet somehow, two survived -- the Master Sidious, and his deadly apprentice, Darth Maul. In the waning years of the Republic, the Sith order returned, but Sidious was content to hide in the shadows. "

There no misinterpreting that Justin, it says two survived, Master Sidious and Darth Maul.
Once again I don't think that means that maul and Sidious are literally the survivors, that would make maul a 1000 years old apprenticce, now THAT is a slow learner!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif , as i said before what they are trying to imply there, is that somehow the sith order survived and right now the two current members are maul and sidious.

[justafan]

Now that you mention it, I do remember something about the timing... :0

Your point about Vader and ESB brings up and interesting scenario--if Vader was not an apprentice in ANH, then would Dooky still be alive at that point? Or are we to assume that there is a time lag between apprentice death and replacement? I'm not advocating that is the case by any means, but it creates a dichotomy--either there are more than one apprentices, or, there are requirements placed on potential apprentices that make them prove themselves. If, and this is a big if, Vader needed to prove himself, I would think that killing Obi would qualify. But, then again, wouldn't the Jedi purge accomplish the same thing? Then what would Dooky have to do? Order the clones and erase the archieves? Don't know, but it open up intersting possibilities.

And no, its not hard to understand, I just think that there are other possibilities than what you believe to be the truth.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Frendon+Apr 7 2003, 12:08 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frendon @ Apr 7 2003, 12:08 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 7 2003, 12:42 AM
"The Sith order had been extinct for a millennium, yet somehow, two survived -- the Master Sidious, and his deadly apprentice, Darth Maul. In the waning years of the Republic, the Sith order returned, but Sidious was content to hide in the shadows. "

There no misinterpreting that Justin, it says two survived, Master Sidious and Darth Maul.
Once again I don't think that means that maul and Sidious are literally the survivors, that would make maul a 1000 years old apprenticce, now THAT is a slow learner!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif , as i said before what they are trying to imply there, is that somehow the sith order survived and right now the two current members are maul and sidious. [/b][/quote]
Once again that's not the point, the point is TOS is not the source for official information on Star Wars Episode 3, not entirely anyway, and again, the databank says exactly what it means, and that statement contridicts other information on the Site.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by justafan@Apr 7 2003, 02:27 PM
And no, its not hard to understand, I just think that there are other possibilities than what you believe to be the truth.
Well Qui-Gon being Sifo-Dyas is not a possibility at all.

[Justin]

I think Frendon's right that the wording is meant to be metaphorical. The thing about the Sith Order surviving through the master/apprentice cycle is how it is.

[DblDwn]

I posted this a while back somewhere on this site but I cannot find it through the Search option so I will just re-write it here.

In the novelization of TPM, beginning on page 134 when Sidious and Maul are talking on Coruscant, Brooks writes the following:

"His (Sidious) thoughts were of the Sith and of the history of their order. The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him. He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over." And then later it says: "The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi. In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other."

Lucas isn't going to make a third trilogy covering Episodes VII-IX so it is safe to say that he isn't going to make a pre-prequel trilogy covering the times before the current trilogy. That being said is it too much to suggest that Lucas is using the rise of the Sith in the PT to illustrate the rise of the Sith in this passage?

Now let's look at this piece by piece:

1) "A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith"- Sifo-Dyas comes to an understanding that the real power is in the dark side of the Force and therefore separates from the order, he would need to fake his death to do so or else the Jedi would be aware of his continuing existence and may attempt to thwart his plans, takes the name Sidious, because it is closely related to his real name, and puts his plans into motion.

2) "swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him"- This doesn't mean that they dismissed him from the order as in taking away his membership card but rather that they dismissed his fascination with the power of the dark side because they are, after all, "harmonious followers". Maybe that is why Yoda and Mace glance at each other like they do after Obi-Wan informs them that Sifo-Dyas was the one who had ordered the army. Perhaps they were aware of his interest in the dark side and when they believed that he had died, they assumed that that would be the last that they would hear of him and, hopefully, the dark side. Then they hear that he ordered an army and they are in disbelief that, of all the names of all the people in the galaxy, it was his that Obi-Wan gives them.

So he wants to bring down the Jedi for their "lack of vision". He orders the clone army under his real name so that it would, one day, be revealed that a Jedi had been the one who had ordered the army without the permission or knowledge of the Senate. The eventual Jedi Purge is enough to suggest that there is a deep hatred of the Jedi which could be more than just because they are the enemy but because they rejected his beliefs and lead him to this point. Think of Maul's line in that scene, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have our revenge." What is the revenge for? The passage says that, for all intents and purposes, the Sith had destroyed themselves. Even so, neither Sidious or Maul had been around in those ancient times because, if you follow the EU, then Darth Bane reinvented the Sith and Sidious didn't come around until later. So what is the revenge for? Could it be revenge for the Jedi dismissing his philosophies and beliefs? Revenge for the Jedi thinking of him as weak minded for allowing himself to obtain this fascination with the dark side? Revenge for the people that he knew and stood beside his whole life just turning their back on him when he needed them most?

3) "He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over." - Am I the only one who is thinking of Dooku and then Anakin after him here?

4) "His disciples began to conspire against him........."- In AOTC Dooku, who is Tyrannus, attempts to recruit Obi-Wan to join him so that THEY can destroy the Sith. Then in ESB Vader attempts to recruit Luke to destroy the Emperor so that THEY can rule the galaxy as father and son.

5) "In the end the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first......"- Vader is a Sith and he ultimately fulfills his destiny by destroying the Sith. He destroys his leader first and then, by doing so, destroys himself.

I for one find this to be a very likely revelation in Episode III. It makes sense. It is logical. It fits in with everything that we have seen up to this point.

Any comments?

[Justin]

Wait...you're saying that the TPM novel was speaking in pat tense about events that hadn't occurred yet??

[DblDwn]

No, pay attention this time, I'm saying that Lucas is using the PT to show us the rise of the Sith, as it happened 2000 years before the PT, since he is never going to make any movies set in those ancient times. He has to show us Sidious' rise in the PT anyway so why would he not use the outline already written about to do so? It makes it easier on him to tell the story and it also shows the viewers something that they wouldn't otherwise ever be able to see on film.

[Justin]

Hmm...are you saying that the thing with Darth Sidious is mirroring what has gone before, or are you saying that it is actually what that passage is referring to?

[DblDwn]

Justin how old are you? My niece can understand what I'm saying and she's in middle school. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

I'm saying that Lucas has to somehow tell the story of Sidious taking over the galaxy. In Episode III there has to be some sort of revelation as to how he came up and took control. I remember that old quote from Jonathon Hales from when Lucas brought him in to assist him in the completion of the script for AOTC. He said that one of the first things that Lucas did was tell him the last bit of dialogue to Episode III and that it ties everything together between trilogies and explains everything that has happened to that point in the PT. That was the basis for my theory that the end of Episode III will be Sidious and Vader standing together as Sidious explains to Vader how everything came to be. They have to show the villains at the very end because they are the ones who are victorious. The new hope doesn't come until the next movie. I also figure that upon completion of this scene the camera will pan out and they will be looking at the beginning construction of the original Death Star as the Imperial March, or some new music, is played leading into the credits. But that is for another thread. Back to what I was saying though, that final conversation would be Sidious explaining to Vader, and the audience, how he left the Jedi order as Sifo-Dyas and became Darth Sidious and so on.

Lucas, in telling this story of Sidious' rise, could very well be using the framework for the very origins of the Sith through the EU as his method of telling the story. If you cannot look at that passage I quoted and see that it is following that pattern in the PT then........nevermind, you're a mod. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[DblDwn]

Hello.........anybody out there?

[justafan]

Try:

"Hello,...is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me..."

Pop some pills and just let it happen.

:eek:

Anway, I think I get what you're trying to say.

[DblDwn]

That's funny because as I was typing that I started singing "Comfortably Numb" in my head.

By the way, thank you. At least someone can understand what I'm saying.

[Renekame_3rd]

lol, slightly off topic but.....ive been away for so long and people are still mentioning sifo dyas lol

Also, there's nothing new in any of these threads :S

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Renekame_3rd@Apr 10 2003, 08:13 AM
ive been away for so long and people are still mentioning sifo dyas lol


I wouldn't laugh. If I am right then he definately has a MUCH bigger role than most people give him credit for.

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>That's funny because as I was typing that I started singing "Comfortably Numb" in my head.

By the way, thank you. At least someone can understand what I'm saying. [/b][/quote]

Floyd is one of the few things I hold more sacred than SW....I won't let anyone blaspheme if I can help it!

And your welcome. I am looking forward to a more detailed explanation of the Sith, from Palpy as you propose. I'm not certain I share your views on Syfo, but, hey, anything is possible. I'm with you that Palpy's explanation will reveal a lot more than just his rise to power....

[Jawa Juice]

IT really makes no sense that darth sideus and palpatine wouldnt be the same ppl. the proof is there. Why else would palpatine suck up to anakin other than to get him to join the dark side. How do you explain That Ian McDiarmid played all three people Darth sideous, The emporer, and palpatine. I'm sure its not due to low funds that they needed to pay him to play all three roles.

[DblDwn]

Have they ever said how long Palpatine had held the office of Senator before TPM?

It is possible, if you buy into the fact the dark side "has clouded the Jedi's vision", that after faking his death Sifo-Dyas went to Naboo, a world with a young queen who he would have thought he could fully take advantage of, like getting her to cast a vote of no confidence in Valorum and therefore getting himself elected Supreme Chancellor, and used his dark side powers to get into the position of Senator before the events of TPM. He then could have used those same powers to get the Senate to elect him to the position of SC. That is completely possible and could be more of that final discussion in Episode III if my views on the conclusion of the film are correct.

It all depends on whether or not the dark side is so much stronger than the light that he could manipulate what the Jedi see when in his presense. It would have to do partially with mind tricks. If old man Obi-Wan can use the light side of the Force to convince Stormtroopers that "these aren't the droids you're looking for" and also on the Death Star in ANH he had to have disguised himself from the vision of the Stormtroopers somehow to get off of the apparatus where he disabled the tractor beam because after they say "what was that" at least one of them appears to glance back enough that he should have seen Obi-Wan, no one thinks that Sidious could use the supreme power of the dark side to convince the Jedi that they do not see that which they really do?

At the beginning of AOTC when Yoda glances at Palpatine with a suspicious look isn't that after Palpatine suggests that Padme get some sort of protection? It could be that in suggesting something that is good for someone else MOMENTARILY stopped his power over them and Yoda thought that he had sensed something familiar for a brief nanosecond even. That could explain that glance.

I think that all of this is entirely possible. What about the rest of you?

[DblDwn]

I just want it to be known that I feel so strongly about this topic, as far as the likelihood of my theory coming true, that I chose to put my 1000th post in this thread.

Here it is.

[Jedi D'oh]

I agree with most everything you said there DblDwn.

I don't think though, not that you implied this, that Palpidious is from Naboo. He REPRESENTS the system of Naboo, among others as well, i think. Only Naboo had the young queen that he could manipulate into forcing a vote to gain himself power.

That being said, the Yoda glance is the best. The meaning behind the actual reason is unclear, but it definately shows that Yoda knows something is up with Palpidious. Just what though, the Jedi still cannot put the proverbial finger on.

[DblDwn]

Yeah I was saying that Sifo/Sidious/Palpatine is not from Naboo and he only chooses that world because of the young queen.

[DblDwn]

Since my argument is that Sifo-Dyas/Sidious/Palpatine are all the same person then here is another way to look at some of Sidious and Palpatine's behavior that could subtely say that they are the same person.

When Padme decides that she is going back to Naboo in TPM Palpatine suggests that she take Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan with her so that they can protect her. If she is going back to Naboo, presumably to sign the treaty, then the Trade Federation wouldn't harm her at least until after she signed the treaty and even then it really isn't likely because they would gain nothing by killing her. So the use of the Jedi is pointless. But if Palptine is Sidious then he wants her to allow Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to go back with her because that way they go to where Maul is so he can kill them. And then when it is reported to Sidious that the queen and her crew had taken refuge in the forest Sidious is confused and says that it is an aggressive move for her because by then he thought that the Jedi would be dead and the treaty would have been signed.

Am I even making sense? I am fighting sleep right now and should really just go to bed. I'm just adding some deeper thought into the dialogue.

[Brian]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Apr 11 2003, 01:33 AM
...Sifo-Dyas/Sidious/Palpatine are all the same person...
When did you change your mind? You used to think Sidious and Palpy were NOT the same.

[DblDwn]

The other day. It makes more sense if they are all the same person. It would also keep the flow of the trilogies better.

[Brian]

That "brings warm feelings to my heart."

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 11 2003, 07:50 AM
That "brings warm feelings to my heart."
That's good to know.

So do you agree with anything that I am saying or do you at least see how that could be a possible scenario?

[justafan]

Dbldwn, I can't believe you have chosen to follow the easy path!

Stick to your original convictions--your first impressions are usually correct!

Syfo is not Paly/Sid and I'm willing to put my nth post on that fact~!

*

I do want to clarify if you are saying Palpy is from Naboo, or went to Naboo. Are we assuming a Ms. Clinton style election to a state from which they were never from originally? If the Naboo elect a queen, I would imagine they have unique election rules, but find it hard to swallow that with the strong feelings of solidarity we see in both Padme and the new queen, that the general public would feel less of the same, in enough capacity to elect an outsider.

Just a thought.

[Frendon]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Apr 11 2003, 09:17 AM
The other day. It makes more sense if they are all the same person. It would also keep the flow of the trilogies better.
:eek: WOW I can't believe what I'm reading!! now you think palpatine and sidious are the same person?? finally!!, BTW I agree in all that you have said, it does make sense except for one thing, Mindtricks only work on the weak minded, Jedi are definitely NOT weak minded.

[DblDwn]

What can I say? I used to think that Sifo-Dyas was Sidious and that Palpatine was just this other guy but, after much thought in my down time, I have concluded that it does make more sense if they are all three the same person. My theory works and I believe it to be true.

[Darth Coil]

I still believe Sidious and Palpatine to be one and the same person.
It's very though to link Sifo-Dyas to a person we know. It's not Palpatine but it could be Count Dooku.

[Darth Vegas]

I think the most accurate theory I've heard so far, in xSith Happensx editorial "Unraveling the mytsteries of the Sith" over at Episode-X. He made a thread on it, and I agree almost 100% with it.

[Darth_Badman]

Check this out, maybe it is a clone...I mean afterall Saddam had clones of him so I am pretty sure they can be in a galaxy far far away.

[Darth Vegas]

Well before I hear another person say it's illogical to think that Sidious is Sifo-Dyas, you may want to read Senor Yoda's databank at sw.com which states the following:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>An entire clone army had been secretly created for the Republic, by decree of a late Jedi, Sifo-Dyas. None in the Council knew of this development, nor had they foreseen it.[/b][/quote]

Sounds to me like the Dark Side really does cloud everything, the very enemy of the Jedi was counted right in their own numbers...as far as I'm concerned.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character...yoda/index.html (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/index.html)

[Brian]

Originally posted by Justin+Apr 2 2003, 12:32 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Justin @ Apr 2 2003, 12:32 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 04:27 AM
Sorry, I'm afraid I have to tell you the section your talking about does not exsist.
Maybe it's in one of the featurettes. I'm sure there's a part where George Lucas is talking about the Two-Sith Rule over the scene where you see Darth Maul walking out of his ship on Tattooine. [/b][/quote]
I finally found the doc you refer to, Justin. It's on the Episode I DVD - the featurette called "Fighting."

Darth Maul is walking out of his ship

Lucas says: The Sith Knights were started by a fallen Jedi Knight who was tempted by the Darkside. The secret was they were patient and they trained and studied, but they didn't make their prescence known to anyone until we get to Episode I here where they finally make their move to try to take over the universe.

[kopernikuz]

Well, since Ian McDiarmid plays Sidious/Palpatine and Bruce Willis plays Syfodyas in Ep III... I think they can't be the same person.


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 14 2003, 11:52 AM
Lucas says: The Sith Knights were started by a fallen Jedi Knight who was tempted by the Darkside. The secret was they were patient and they trained and studied, but they didn't make their prescence known to anyone until we get to Episode I here where they finally make their move to try to take over the universe.
So Lucas said this? Ok then if the Sith kept their presense a secret until Episode I then when Maul says, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi", it makes sense but please explain to me what he meant by, "At last we will have our revenge."

Like I said on the previous page, what is the revenge for? Unless Sidious is Sifo-Dyas then that line makes no sense whatsoever. But if he is Sifo-Dyas then it does make sense because the revenge is justified (as I stated on the previous page).

[Darth Vegas]

I've always seen it since I first saw AOTC as a personnal revenge for Sifo-Dyas and his young apprentice who eventually became Maul when they were kicked out of the order.

I don't think there is any reason Maul couldn't have been a padawan in the order, they need motivation, a personnal goal, people aren't just evil, it doesn't work that way ever.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES+Apr 14 2003, 10:52 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(O-B-GATES @ Apr 14 2003, 10:52 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Justin@Apr 2 2003, 12:32 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 1 2003, 04:27 AM
Sorry, I'm afraid I have to tell you the section your talking about does not exsist.
Maybe it's in one of the featurettes. I'm sure there's a part where George Lucas is talking about the Two-Sith Rule over the scene where you see Darth Maul walking out of his ship on Tattooine.
I finally found the doc you refer to, Justin. It's on the Episode I DVD - the featurette called "Fighting."

Darth Maul is walking out of his ship

Lucas says: The Sith Knights were started by a fallen Jedi Knight who was tempted by the Darkside. The secret was they were patient and they trained and studied, but they didn't make their prescence known to anyone until we get to Episode I here where they finally make their move to try to take over the universe. [/b][/quote]
Hey Justin, notice how GL never mentions the two sith rule on that doc? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Frendon]

What it would be like if the Sith disregarded the "Rule
of Two,"? and have decided the situation might make for a pretty good sit
com?

"Come knock on our blast door.
We've been waiting for you.
Where the sabers are his, and his, and his,
Three Sith is company too!

Come and pace on our floor.
Seek out a hope that is new.
Where they wear those cool tatoos on their face,
Three Sith is company too!

You'll see that life is a ball again,
the dark side is calling for you.

Down at our rendezvous,
Three Sith is company too!"

On this week's episode, clutzy Lord Vader, having finally graduated from
Grand Moff Travers' cooking school, has opened up his own restaurant:
Darth's Bistro. But on opening night, having strangled his entire
restaurant staff for botching the nerf souffle, Vader finds himself having
to call his roomates, the spunky and reliable Darth Sidious, and the ditzy
Darth Maul, to bail him out. Needless to say, darkside wackiness ensues. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Darth Vegas]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif

What happened to Tyrannus? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

BTW Frendon, I'm not disbuting that the Sith are "Always two..."
I'm disputing that the Darth Bane crap is all EU, cause it is, GL has never one time mentioned it or given any creadit to the idea.

From what he has said, the Sith were always only two and they remained hidden until TPM when they finally made thier move to take over the Galaxy, he hasn't debunked teh Darth Bane and the Sith war stuff either, however, so it could very well be the case. Which doesn't effect the Sifo-Dyas is Sidious theory at all.

[P-Ray]

I haven't read this entire thing so I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this. I don't know if GL is trying to throw us off the trail, but howabout when Sidious is talking to the viceroy in TPM and tells them something to the fact that he would have things "bogged down" in the Senate. I personally thought that that was a hint that Sidious is Palpatine. It's also strange how the Emperor in RTJ (whose name is Palatine) looks like Sidious. Other clues seem to be Palpatines active interest in Anakin's training. I definitely think they are the same person but GL just wants us to doubt it to make it mysterious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

[Brian]

Originally posted by P-Ray@Apr 15 2003, 07:52 PM
I haven't read this entire thing so I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this. I don't know if GL is trying to throw us off the trail, but howabout when Sidious is talking to the viceroy in TPM and tells them something to the fact that he would have things "bogged down" in the Senate. I personally thought that that was a hint that Sidious is Palpatine. It's also strange how the Emperor in RTJ (whose name is Palatine) looks like Sidious. Other clues seem to be Palpatines active interest in Anakin's training. I definitely think they are the same person but GL just wants us to doubt it to make it mysterious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif
Excellent points, P-Ray! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[DblDwn]

So we've taken this discussion back to last summer.

Good to know style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES+Apr 15 2003, 04:54 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(O-B-GATES @ Apr 15 2003, 04:54 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-P-Ray@Apr 15 2003, 07:52 PM
I haven't read this entire thing so I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this. I don't know if GL is trying to throw us off the trail, but howabout when Sidious is talking to the viceroy in TPM and tells them something to the fact that he would have things "bogged down" in the Senate. I personally thought that that was a hint that Sidious is Palpatine. It's also strange how the Emperor in RTJ (whose name is Palatine) looks like Sidious. Other clues seem to be Palpatines active interest in Anakin's training. I definitely think they are the same person but GL just wants us to doubt it to make it mysterious. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif
Excellent points, P-Ray! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif [/b][/quote]
Rehashed reused, old news. There is much more evidence pointing towards this idea, the balcony outside Palpatine apartment is the same balcony Darth Maul and Sidious are walking on in TPM (even the buildings surrounding the area are the same so obviously it's the same place). The chair in Palpatine's office is almost identical to the chair in the Emporer's throne room in ROTJ, plus "Palpatine" employs red royal guards....

Taking all the evidence into acount, like the fact the name Palpatine is neither mentioned in the Classic Trilogy in the movies, or in the credits, even though the name was associated with the character before ANH was even released, there's alot more to the puzzle.

I'm not buying the Sidious is Palpatine and Sifo-Dyas is some other guy theory, cause it's a mystery, and mysteries never take the easy route they never end up being what everybody anticipates, there's a rare handful of people that can geuss what's coming next, and Lucas mentioned on the AOTC commentary that he meant for it to be that way, for the mystery to be their in AOTC, but not completely resolved, it's all still very vague, and he's been very careful with his comments, never calling Sidious Palpatine, but referring to Sidious as the Emporer.

And most of all I'm not going to buy into Palpatine being from Naboo and somehow just happening to become a Sith especially since 1000 years ago, all Sith teachings which were kept in holocrons were supposed to have been locked down in the Jedi Temple (it just so happens that Count Dooku is supposed to have stummbled across these holocrons).

All of that doesn't add up to the general idea of who Sidious and Palpatine are, and where the Sith came from etc etc, IMO.

Everybody wants to know exactly who Darth Sidious is, and how he became a Sith and so forth, and it's something Episode 3 does need to resolve, and can resolves rather simply, with the time frame of roughly ten years more or less, I'd say at least a few more years, a Jedi Master is expelled from the order, perhaps along with his apprentice, the Jedi Master plans his revenge on the Jedi, and becomes Darth Sidious, he meets with the Senator from Naboo, the two become "partners in crime" sort of, and Darth Sidious the shapeshifter kills Palpatine taking on his identity, thus Sifo-Dyas dissapears from the galaxy almost completely, and Palpatine lives, at least in the eyes of the public. So you have a very simple explanation of how Sifo-Dyas took control of the Senate and ordered the Clone Army.

Some time in Episode 3, I expect the Jedi to discover this, and as the older drafts of the original Star Wars scripts suggest, they will attempt to "unmask" Palpatine revealing his true identity, and thus the purge begins and Vader is born yadayada, and we all go home very happy. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[JediBendu]

just to throw this in from left field - what if GL decides to make Sidious and Palpatine different people (even clones) just to piss fans off? It's his last throw of the dice with Star Wars and he makes no secret of his dislike for particular groups of fans, namely those who hang out on message boards
...oh

anyway - GL could pull something out just because it'll amuse him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>it just so happens that Count Dooku is supposed to have stummbled across these holocrons). [/b][/quote]

and where did you just happen to come across that? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Uh Essential Guide to characters, sw.com.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[P-Ray]

Sorry guys. I didn't know I was rehashing old news. I'm fairly new to this and wanted to give my 2 cents but I didn't know it was already discussed.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by P-Ray@Apr 16 2003, 04:22 PM
Sorry guys. I didn't know I was rehashing old news. I'm fairly new to this and wanted to give my 2 cents but I didn't know it was already discussed.
I don't worry about it, I wasn't saying anything against you or the validity of your statement, pay it no mind, my comment was more directed at OBG, not you.

[Brian]

Punk

[Darth Vegas]

Are you talking to me, are you talking to me?!

[P-Ray]

No problem. I didn't get my poor little sensitive feelings hurt, I just wanted to apologize.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 16 2003, 08:54 PM
Are you talking to me, are you talking to me?!
yes

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES+Apr 17 2003, 12:10 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(O-B-GATES @ Apr 17 2003, 12:10 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 16 2003, 08:54 PM
Are you talking to me, are you talking to me?!
yes [/b][/quote]
Yeah I knew that

[Brian]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Apr 15 2003, 11:02 AM
So Lucas said this? Ok then if the Sith kept their presense a secret until Episode I then when Maul says, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi", it makes sense but please explain to me what he meant by, "At last we will have our revenge."
That's a mystery if you take out the EU. But in the EU the Jedi destroy the Sith, so they think.

[Darth Vegas]

That's not entirely EU, that's in the movies, "Impossible the Sith have been extinct for a millenia."

OBG, is you havn't read it yet, read xSith Happensx editorial "Unraveling the mysteries of the Sith" over at Episode-X.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Apr 17 2003, 05:47 PM
That's no EU, that's in the movies, "Impossible the Sith have been extinct for a millenia."

OBG, is you havn't read it yet, read xSith Happensx editorial "Unraveling the mysteries of the Sith" over at Episode-X.
It's in the movies, but it doesn't say the Jedi wiped them out (that's in Jedi vs. Sith.) Remember, I'm one to rely on EU when the films don't explain things.

I read that article at Episode-X. It's very good. I forgot to make comments on it. I'll get those up one of these days.

[Brian]

The following is from the novelization of The Phantom Menace (pp. 134-136 in the paperback edition):


The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.

He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi order who believed as he did and who had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited, and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends strength and yields control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve; theirs was an order created to dominate.

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.

In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by the watchful Jedi. In a matter of only weeks, all of them died.

All but one.

Darth Maul shifted impatiently. The younger Sith had not yet learned his Master’s patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them their victory now over the Jedi.

The Sith who had survived when all of his fellows had died had understood that. He had adopted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way—old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to be a Master in his turn, then to find his own apprentice, and so to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.

The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane.

A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.


______________________________________________

Then Darth Maul goes on to say, “At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge.”

[DblDwn]

That is a very good point OB...........if you look at it from an EU standpoint, which I am not discrediting as far as 'filling in the gaps" (at this point).

Now I'm not discrediting this passage from the novel because I have used pieces of this same passage as support for a lot of my argument, but that little Sith backstory is not in the movie. So, from a 'on screen' standpoint, what I suggest is not entirely impossible is it? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Not impossible at all, even if you take that backstory into account.

Read this Dbldwn, if you have the time: http://www.episode-x.com/editorials/sithhistory.shtml

[Brian]

I'm glad you have seen the light Dbldwn. It's one thing to say the EU doesn't hold water when it contradicts the films (which is obvious), but it's another to totally discredit the EU just because you don't like it or because Lucas doesn't rely on it. I mean, everything CAN NOT and WILL NOT be explained on screen. The Jedi, Sith, Republic, and other characters do have back stories. I was listening to the commentary for TPM last night. Lucas mentioned that "Anakin and Sebulba have a back story that we obviously won't be able to get to in the film" [paraphrased]. Just because this "back story" isn't in the film, does this mean that it didn't happen? In this case, sure it happened because Lucas said it did. But what about other EU? They have back story too. They hold water too. Just not in the cases where it contradicts the films or established continuity (which isn't frequent). You going to have stuff slip through the cracks when there's so many different authors and minds so readily expanding the universe. Keep in mind that every story in the actual Star War universe (as if it's real anyway) don't have to be good and every story teller is not necessarily a good one. This could contribute to people's feeling that "the EU sucks." Well, in Star Wars, while every story and story teller isn't good, every story is important in it's own way. Everyone has a back story and everything is interesting. This is what makes Star Wars so damn cool anyway! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif



While the origins of the Sith that Terry Brooks gives in novel for TPM wasn't in the film and it might not be completely congruent with Lucas' feelings on it (see here (http://www.galacticsenate.com/index.php?act=ST&f=13&t=1464&st=460#entry197766)), it makes sense and there is no reason to say it didn't happen that way. The history that Kevin J. Anderson and Tom Vietch give us might not be all that great (story telling wise), it's the only history we are going to get other than Lucas' frequently changed, not really sure comments.

[Frendon]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 18 2003, 08:46 AM
Keep in mind that every story in the actual Star War universe (as if it's real anyway) don't have to be good and every story teller is not necessarily a good one. This could contribute to people's feeling that "the EU sucks." Well, in Star Wars, while every story and story teller isn't good, every story is important in it's own way. Everyone has a back story and everything is interesting. This is what makes Star Wars so damn cool anyway!
AMEN style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[Svansiboy]

How many Star Wars Books have you read?
They are the same person.

He didn't start cloning himselfe so early did he? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

[Frendon]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif what?

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@Apr 18 2003, 05:46 AM
While the origins of the Sith that Terry Brooks gives in novel for TPM wasn't in the film and it might not be completely congruent with Lucas' feelings on it (see here (http://www.galacticsenate.com/index.php?act=ST&f=13&t=1464&st=460#entry197766)), it makes sense and there is no reason to say it didn't happen that way. The history that Kevin J. Anderson and Tom Vietch give us might not be all that great (story telling wise), it's the only history we are going to get other than Lucas' frequently changed, not really sure comments.
Lucas' has been saying the same thing about the Sith since Episode 1 was released, his comments have been made pretty clear, and while they are not exactly in line with the EU, they are fairly certain, he hasn't been completely detailed about them either, but he hasn't been confusing, and he hasn't been changing his mind about them.

All this stuff about the Sith being extinct and so forth is something that Episode 3 needs to explain, how did Yoda know about the Two Sith rule? How did Sidious/PalpySifo-Dyas) come across these teachings and carry out the new line of Sith, what exactly happened 1000 years ago (it's apparent that the current Sith uprising has something to do with the Prophecy) how are the Sith clouding the future from the Jedi, bringing balance to the Force, etc. etc., and so forth, everybody keeps saying how this is all about Anakin, but it isn't going to take the full 2 1/2 hours for Anakin to become Darth Vader, there's plenty of time for other things.

Part of Episode 3 is going to be the Jedi discovering who Sidious is, who erased the archives, who ordered the army, and right in those scenes we can also be learning about the Prophecy, how all of this stuff fits together, everything has been so vague up until now, and Episode 3 has alot of explaining to do, and it will do so, and also the dissapearing trick/ghost thing being explained, I have a strong feeling that this is all connected to the prophecy, to Anakin, because that will definately be the easiest way to explain all of those things.

[Svansiboy]

Why did he say what?

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>has alot of explaining to do[/b][/quote]

In his best Cuban accent, hand on hip, index finger shaking

"Lucas, you got some 'plainin' to do!"

[Svansiboy]

Errr am i not in this disscussion?

[Blizzard]

Originally posted by Svansiboy@Apr 18 2003, 12:11 PM
Errr am i not in this disscussion?
I think they said "What" because they are discussing the movies here, not the books. There is nothing in the movies so far saying he cloned himself.

[DblDwn]

What style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif