The Yoda Thread

[nerfer]

<span style="color:c1007e"><span style="font-family:comic sans ms">*How much do the Jedi acutally know, *in particular Yoda and to some extent Mace Windu,

For instance. *Does Yoda suspect Palpatine of something? *In the scene where Palpatine suggests the Jedi should protect Padme, Yoda gives Palpy a veeeeeery suspicious look. *What is it that he suspects him of?

When Obi -Wan informs them of the clone army. *Windu and Yoda give each other a knowing look when the name Sifo- Dyas is mentioned? *Do they know something about him that we don't?

Yoda tells us that the Dark side is clouding everything, but how much can he actually see. *Does he know what is going to happen, and is allowing events to unfold as they are because he knows it must happen to restore balance. *(Not sure about this because, would Yoda really sacrifice all the Jedi just to restore balance?)

Or does he know bits and pieces, but is just holding back on some extra bits that he does know. *Like Sifo-Dyas for instance, its quite possible that this Jedi didn't die. After all they have lied about Jedi dying before. *Like when Luke was told Anakin was destroyed by Vader. *True from a certain point of view. *But makes you wonder. *Did Sifo-Dyas die? *Or did he turn to the dark side and thats why Yoda and Mace give each other a knowing look?

Comments?....</span></span>

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[Deak_Starkiller]

I also noticed the mischevious looks that you mentioned. *If GL is true to form, there is a lot of meaning behind them (think Uncle Owen exchaning glances with Aunt Beru around the dining room table in ANH when Luke talks about his father and Obi Wan ... little did we know at the time he was talking about Vader). *

As far as the look Yoda gives Palpatine, it was right after Palpatine basically read Padme's mind. *Watch it again if you didn't pick up on this. *She was trying to say that she didn't think the situation (her assassination attempt) was that dangerous, but Palpatine beat her too it. *I think Palpatine's quick insight surprised Yoda and made him suspicious. * But, still I don't think Yoda KNOWS that much. *Just suspicious.

The glance between Mace and Yoda was interesting as well. *There is definitely something there that they both know that they aren't telling yet. *I can't wait to find out what it is. *I like your idea that maybe Sifo-Dyas isn't dead yet. *You are right, we've been lied to about that before!

[Blizzard]

I think the entire Jedi order is suspicious of the Senate. Remember Obi-Wan warning Anakin that Politicians are not to be trusted.

Yoda must know the Dark Side is somewhere within the Senate, because they could not see the attack on Padmé. Yoda said in one of the books, "Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force. And only those who have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future."

And Hiya Deak style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/exclamation.gif

[shaps]

Yoda's always been an enigma in SW.

Think back to the first meeting with Luke... pretending to be someone else as a test. Or not really saying what the Dark Cave was all about (which btw wouldn't surprise me if that's where Dooku dies at the hands of Yoda).

Think to in AOTC where he kicks all kinds of a**, but then goes back to using his cane. Or how about how easily he fell into the role of commanding the clone troopers.

He speaks in riddles. There's always more to him than meets the eye. How this all relates to his knowledge of Syfo, Sidious, Palpatine, Clones, TF, Dark Side, Anakin, etc. I don't know. But it shouldn't be a surprise in itself if Yoda is withholding information.

[BevelLemelisk]

Originally posted by Deak_Starkiller@May 21 2002 - 23:26
You are right, we've been lied to about that before!
We've been lied to about this later...er I mean 'bout 30 ytears into the future...you know what I mean...sorry my sarcastic mind just had to say that... Anyway I agree that Yoda knows more than he's telling. He always seems to. At least about the present. The futer is "Hard to see" but the present should be fairly easy...not too easy or he'd know who the "Dark Lord" was but...anyway that's my 3 cents.

[Tovor]

Cool thread. Worthy of more input.

[JediBendu]

A prophecy is unfolding before their very eyes but I doubt they suspect the link to the dark side otherwise they'd keep more of an eye on Anakin.
It would depend on the specifics of the prophecy of course (anyone, anyone?) but Mace seems to think it's a good thing - the dark side is growing, so the bring it back into balance would be (to him) restoring the Light Side back to the way it was. Mace may think that Anakin will be the one to accomplish it - he'd have no idea that it will be him that destroys the Jedi.

'mmm clouded this boys future is'

Yoda can't see squat! He's too old, yes too old to lead the council.
Mace and Yoda's reaction when they learn of the clones is them thinking 'man we really have passed our use-by date'.
Yoda does show some wonderful duplicity in not telling Obi-Wan about Leia, but I doubt it goes more than that.

Yoda's is clumsy as he is stupid.

or something...

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by nerfer@May 19 2002, 10:42 AM
When Obi -Wan informs them of the clone army. Windu and Yoda give each other a knowing look when the name Sifo- Dyas is mentioned? Do they know something about him that we don't?
It wasn't the mention of Sifo-dyas that caused the exchanged look, it was the fact that their abilities have slipped so much that they didn't forsee any of this happening. Immediately after their communication with Obi-wan ended, Yoda said:

"Blind, we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see."

To which Mace responded:

"I think it is time that we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

That's what was bothering them in that scene. Their weakness.

I did catch the look on Yoda's face when Palpatine suggested Jedi protection for Padme. I'm not sure what bothered Yoda there. Maybe he does suspect Palpatine of something. But if he does, I'm surprised warning bells didn't go off in his head when Obi-wan told them of the Senate being controlled by Sidious.

With Dooku being revealed as a Dark Sider, it's possible Yoda's suspicion has shifted off of Palpatine, and onto Dooku. Yoda might now believe that Dooku was Maul's master and the one responsible for the rise of the Dark Side presence.

[Kit]

I agree with borgmatrix on this. The look must have been about the formation of the army because that is all they mentioned after the transmition ended.

As for Yoda not knowing about Palpatine, I just don't know. It could be because Palpatine was using the his Dark Forces to cloud the Jedi's judgement. Or it could be because Palpatine and Sidious are two different people with Palpatine as a pawn in Sidious's plan.

Any wise cracks and/or comments?

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Kit@Sep 7 2002, 03:14 AM
As for Yoda not knowing about Palpatine, I just don't know. It could be because Palpatine was using the his Dark Forces to cloud the Jedi's judgement. Or it could be because Palpatine and Sidious are two different people with Palpatine as a pawn in Sidious's plan.
The answer is actually linked to what I was saying above. The Jedi are in a weakened state since Dark Side clouds their abilities. Like Mace said: "...our ability to use the Force has diminished."

[DblDwn]

In AOTC after Obi-Wan completes his transmission to Yoda and Mace, their discussion is as follows;

Yoda: "Blind we are, if the development of this clone army we could not see."

Mace: "I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished ."

Yoda: "Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will."

Being as that they are discussing their inability to foresee and/or sense the creation of the clone army and Yoda talks of only the Sith knowing that their abilities are diminishing, wouldn't they conclude that the Sith were indeed the ones who ordered the clones? If so, why wouldn't they present those suspicions while in Palpatine's office discussing emergency use of the army?

There Force Powers are diminshing after all, not their common sense.

I would like to have seen an extra scene of Yoda on Kamino, before departing with the clones to Geonosis, and see what, if any, sort of questions he asks of Lama Su regarding Sifo-Dyas and the ordering of the clones. I think that is the one deleted scene I would want to see most and it wasn't even filmed, as far as we know anyway.

Like I've said before, if "Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of" that weakness in them, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the Dark Lords of the Sith were in turn former Jedi who were at one point experiencing these same diminishing skills? Then that would point them right to Sifo-Dyas (Sidious to us but they don't know that) since they had just discovered that he was the one who ordered the army and Dooku (Tyrannus) after they encounter him on Geonosis.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Sep 7 2002, 06:33 AM
Being as that they are discussing their inability to foresee and/or sense the creation of the clone army and Yoda talks of only the Sith knowing that their abilities are diminishing, wouldn't they conclude that the Sith were indeed the ones who ordered the clones? If so, why wouldn't they present those suspicions while in Palpatine's office discussing emergency use of the army?
The Dark Side presence is growing, but that doesn't tell the Jedi exactly what the Sith are doing. There's no obvious link between the Sith and the army. I'm guessing that Yoda and the others are looking at the Separatists as being controlled by the Sith (having discovered Dooku to be using the Dark Side) and see that as the big threat, not someone within the Republic. That's the only thing I can think of.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Like I've said before, if "Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of" that weakness in them, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the Dark Lords of the Sith were in turn former Jedi who were at one point experiencing these same diminishing skills? Then that would point them right to Sifo-Dyas (Sidious to us but they don't know that) since they had just discovered that he was the one who ordered the army and Dooku (Tyrannus) after they encounter him on Geonosis.[/b][/quote]

That could be, but it's not the only possible way they could know of the Jedi weakness. According to TPM novel, the Sith did originate from the Jedi (if I'm remembering correctly). Most likely, it was at that point, thousands of years before, that they discovered that the rise of the Dark Side meant weakness for the Jedi. So by the time of AOTC, the Sidious would have that knowledge and wouldn't necessarily have to be former Jedi. Also, given that Sidious can see the future, he gotten a glimpse of that happening (the Jedi becoming weakened).

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Sep 7 2002, 01:56 PM
According to TPM novel, the Sith did originate from the Jedi (if I'm remembering correctly).


The TPM novel says the exact opposite, and so does GL.

In an interview he said, "The Sith Knights were started by a Jedi that had been seduced to the Dark Side of the force." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Also, only the Jedi have acess to their archives, which are extremly secure from outsiders, as no one outside of the order is allowed in the Jedi Temple.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 7 2002, 02:33 PM
In an interview he said, "The Sith Knights were started by a Jedi that had been seduced to the Dark Side of the force." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
That what I'm talking about. The Sith didn't start independently, but were founded by someone who was a Jedi.

[Zane Marit]

I know that I read it somewhere...I will look it up. But the Sith were a race of people that had "magical" skills. Dark Jedi came across the Sith and their Magic teachings and indoctrinated them into their practices. The Sith Lords were many in number and were split into 2 main factions. This started the Sith war with Exar Kun. The Sith were killing each other off until Darth Bane came up with the rule of 2 One master and one apprentice. No more. No less.

Hope this helps...


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[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Zane Marit@Sep 9 2002, 11:40 PM
I know that I read it somewhere...I will look it up. But the Sith were a race of people that had "magical" skills. Dark Jedi came across the Sith and their Magic teachings and indoctrinated them into their practices. The Sith Lords were many in number and were split into 2 main factions. This started the Sith war with Exar Kun. The Sith were killing each other off until Darth Bane came up with the rule of 2 One master and one apprentice. No more. No less.
That was the explanation from the EU, I believe. But the Phantom Menace novelization provided a different Sith background. Many jedi broke away from the order and became a separate group, one that would eventually be called the Sith. In their lust for power, they began forming sides, and turning on one another. One of them, I think Darth Bane, hid away, letting the rest kill each other off. Eventually the only one, he became the Master, taking an apprentice, and starting the rule of 2 to ensure that no similar war would happen to decimate the Sith. Their true enemy was the Jedi and that became the focus.

I think that was the essence of it. I would say it's the true origin of the Sith since it comes from novelization of the movie.

[justafan]

I think we can link the weakening of the Jedi to the rise of the Sith/Dark side (I am still not convinced that Dooku is Sith). Anyway, if there is a balance, there has to be a set amount. Until recently, I was under the assumption that the "balance" being spoken of was the elimination of the extra "bad" or "Dark". But the more thought I put into it, it really is an INCREASE in the Dark. Things are goofed up because there is too much Light.

Put too much chlorine in your pool and what happens?

Everything turns white.

How do you get white paint to cover better?

Add some black paint to it.

Its the same with the Force. For far too long there was little Dark and too much light. Anakin's turn, the rise of Palpy and Vader, and the demise of most of the Jedi brought about a shift toward balance. We went from 2000 + Jedi and 0 to 2 Sith, to two Jedi (Ben/Yoda, Juke Yoda) and the two Sith (Palpy/Vader).

By eliminating the Jedi, dismantling the Senate, giving rise to the Empire, the universe was given a balance of Force and a reasonable, powerfull, able to rule, government.

This is the crushing fact that Yoda and Mace know, by divination or some "holy" book, or who knows, and cannot tell, for doing so will ruin the set of motions already in play. Their statements and stares are realizations that "This is it", not "oh my God".

[JediBendu]

I think that if they were aware that Anakin would bring about the demise of the Jedi, Yoda would have cleaved that little punk kid in half when he had the chance.
Even Mace is still convinced that Anakin is good for the team
'Remember, if the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance.' - mace, atoc

[justafan]

But that's the point. They DO know he will bring about the demise of the Jedi. That's the only way to bring a true balance to the Force. Everything they have worked their entire lives for is going to disappear. That's why they are apprehensive at every turn.

Killing Anakin wouldn't solve anything.

Doing what we think is right (killing Anakin), although would save the Jedi, would not be best for the universe.

Not making comparisons, but why could Jesus have not been killed as child, by Herod's orders? Because he had a life of things to do. Regardless of your beliefs, you have to admit that his presense/story/message changed the way the world worked.

The same is true with Anakin/Vader. Love him or hate him, his presence changed the way the universe existed.

Sometimes what we wish for is not always delivered in the manner in which we wish.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 21 2002, 03:47 AM
By eliminating the Jedi, dismantling the Senate, giving rise to the Empire, the universe was given a balance of Force and a reasonable, powerfull, able to rule, government.
So you're saying the Empire was a good thing?

I thought that the balance was thrown off when the Sith/Empire came to power. The galaxy was in the grip of the Dark Side. Then, after ROTJ and Anakin's move against Sidious, the balance was restored.

It could be that the Force was off-balance both during the time when the Jedi numbered in the thousands and also when the Sith ruled. And then after the events of ROTJ, the balance was restored.

[justafan]

I'm saying the Empire is a good thing when looking at the socio-economics of government. Dictatorships may be bad when it comes to the treatment of the people, but there is no arguing that there is at least some sort of political calm. Rules are made and enforced, usually for the greater good, with little or no opposition. In short, governments of this type usually eliminate anarchy. Long term, no, Empire bad. Short term, yes, Empire good.

Regarding balance OF THE FORCE, I agree. When one side or the other ruled there was imbalance. Well, to an extent. I think there was a trade off. Jedi ruled, and because of their hands off defender's of the Universe philosophy, chaos eventually ensued. When the Sith rose, and the Jedi disappeared, at least there was a relatively stable time in the government. (Liken to when USSR was in power over the Baltic states. Peace existed, but only out of fear that every one would loose if peace failed).

I still argue that Yoda and Mace, and probably Syfo-Dyas (whomever that person may be) and Palpatine were aware of the path the universe was to take to reach the balance it needed. Palpatine was always going on about he had forseen this or it was destiny that. He knew the way of the Sith was for the Sith to fall and the apprentice to step up. He knew.

Just like Yoda and Mace knew. They knew about Syfo-dyas, and the erasing of the library files, and the identity of Palpitine (no, really, I believe they did), the ordering and existance of the clones, the whole shooting match.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 24 2002, 01:25 PM
Just like Yoda and Mace knew. They knew about Syfo-dyas, and the erasing of the library files, and the identity of Palpitine (no, really, I believe they did), the ordering and existance of the clones, the whole shooting match.
But if they knew it would happen and felt that it should (in order to restore balance), why not aid Palpatine? Especially if they know who he is. Is that what your suggesting?

I'm not sure they would just allow all this to happen. From Yoda's order to Obi-wan to bring in Jango, it seemed like he was intent on discovering what was going on. And his repeated line about the dark side clouding everything didn't seem to be spoken in a favorable manner. He even described the Sith as their enemy. If the rise of the Dark Side was for the good of the galaxy, I don't think Yoda would feel that way. More than that, why consider the Dark Side "dark"?

If there's going to be an imbalance, I'd say it's preferable for it to be on the light side. I can't imagine situations every being so bad that senior Jedi council members would allow the Sith to takeover and bring about the destruction of the Jedi.

[justafan]

I'm not saying that Yoda should be aiding Palpy. I'm simply saying that he knew that he needed to fight the good fight, present his case, but that when all was said and done, the outcome would not change. HIS COURSE WAS PREORDAINED, just as everyone else's in the universe.

But, remember, through the tribulation of the Jedi purge, the rise of the Empire, Vader's ascencion, Luke was able to bring Vader back. Everything that happened prior to that, had to happen prior to that, in order for Luke to succeed.

I know, I know, this is getting pretty metaphysical, but when dealing with predestination, a little knowledge goes a long way. In Back to the Future, Doc was hellbent on not making any changes while they were in the past, as to not upset what was to come. Same circumstance with what Yoda knew. He couldn't make and changes.

His opposition was key to what happened next. Had they rolled over and not created the tension needed to fuel the "hatred" of the Empire, then Vader's power would not be so feared, and Luke would not have faced him.

Oh, BTW, I agree, the imbalance should be toward the light. But by allowing the Jedi to present themselves (although unbeknowst to them) as a sacrifice for the greater good, the Sith rose, and eventually balance arrived. I'm not saying that the Dark side was better for the universe completely, I'm simply saying the rise of the Dark side and creation of the Empire was good in the short term.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 24 2002, 04:56 PM
In Back to the Future, Doc was hellbent on not making any changes while they were in the past, as to not upset what was to come. Same circumstance with what Yoda knew. He couldn't make and changes.
Maybe not quite the same thing, though. For Yoda, the future hasn't happened yet. So he does have a choice. If he truly knows that Palpatine is Sith, I can't see him not doing more. He would stop Palpatine. Consider that he wanted Dooku captured to end the war. I'm pretty sure he said as much. If he wanted Dooku stopped, I don't see why he wouldn't attempt to defeat Palpatine, especially if Yoda knows what's going on as you've suggested. Also, going back to Back to the Future, Doc did read Marty's letter, so he did end up changing the future.

You mentioned that the conflict of tension was needed to to bring about hate for the Empire and fear of Vader. And that all this led to Luke confronting Vader, which was needed. You're right. But if Yoda had stopped Palpatine, there would be no Empire. Vader might still be born, but would likely be defeated easily without the Emperor backing him. Luke would no longer be needed.

If Yoda could have, he would have defeated Sidious and ended the threat, and it would not have cost the lives of nearly every Jedi.

[justafan]

Vader couldn't have been born without the aid of Siduous. There has to be a catalyst event, and someone to push the right buttons for a Jedi to fall from grace.

The Jedi had to be eliminated to bring balance. Otherwise, there would need to be 2000 Sith. I don't see how that would be better than fewer Jedi. If Vader was easily defeated without Luke, then why hide him and his sister? No, Yoda could not face, Vader. Luke had to. Vader had to be turned before his death, or everything would have been for naught.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 25 2002, 12:54 PM
Vader couldn't have been born without the aid of Siduous.
Most likely. Which means no Jedi purge, no Sith uprising, and no dark times. There would be 2000 Sith? How's that? Dooku, if we believe him, is against the corruption of the Senate and is trying to do what's best for the galaxy, yet he's the one using the Dark Side, not the Jedi. And when it comes to corruption in the Senate, Palpatine seems to be the one most responsible with his hidden agendas and motivations.

There's nothing I've seen in the Jedi that compares to Sidious and the Sith.

[Angel_Blue]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Sep 6 2002, 06:17 AM


Yoda's is clumsy as he is stupid.

or something...
The Yoda fight scene in Ep II begs to differ.

[Justin]

Here's another interesting thing to think about:

How the hell does Yoda know about the Two-Sith Rule?

According to George Lucas, the Sith use their "Two-at-a-time" rule in order to keep themselves from becoming extinct, and it keeps them secret as well.

When Qui-Gon tells the Jedi Council that he believes he encountered a Sith, the Council basically say that it isn't possible, because the Sith have been wiped out. But then at the end of The Phantom Menace, Yoda explains the Two-Sith Rule to Mace Windu.

How the hell does he know this?? How does Yoda know there are only two Sith at a time? There could be a whole slew of them hiding out somewhere, as far as he knows.

Either he knew about it all along and for some reason he just kept it to himself, or he magically figured it all out after Qui-Gon died.

Can you say "plot hole"?

[maddog62]

The Jedi arcives have a Sith Holocron.

[Justin]

Holocrons are in the Expanded Universe.

[Darth Vegas]

Yes Justin, but they were also seen in the Jedi Archives in AOTC, though they were hard to pick out. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Tovor]

The AOTC Visual Dictionary stated that the only known Sith holocron was stored in a vault in the temple. It is a good bet that Dooku had been secretly accessing that holocron, and also, that after Qui-Gon's Sith lord report, that Yoda accessed the holocron to learn more about the Sith's methods, before the conversation with Mace at the end.

[JediBendu]

I reckon Palpatine must have a Sith Holocron as well - how else could he possess sith knowledge? A day-pass to the Jedi Archives? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[justafan]

I think that Palpy has more than a holocron. His knowledge and power isn't something he picked up on a weekend study course. He has had some long term training.

Of course, that means there was another Sith....

Is that something that Yoda knew but hid?

What if, and I know this is a long shot, but what the hey, (and have patience Agent Bond! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif ) Syfo was Sith, and kept it hidden from everyone but Yoda (we have agreed that this is not a hard thing to do). SD does something that created the situation where he has to leave the order, and to keep from shaming the Jedis, Yoda allows him to leave/be bannished, but announces that SD died. All along, though, he's been teaching an apprentice, to revive the Sith. Sometime SD orders the clones, and eventually the apprentice kills him, as is the way of the Sith. This would a) explain how Palpy knows so much, b) give a base for the rise of the Sith, and c) give Palpy a point of fact to discredit the Jedi ("Hey, public, did you know that rather than kill this other bad Jedi SD, the Jedi allowed him to live, and then he ordered the clones...").

I can certainly see Yoda knowing something like this. And, to my surprise, it wraps a few loose ends up for me personally.

Does anyone else see this as a possibility?

[Darth Vegas]

The Sith are the Jedi's worst enemy, if Yoda knew Sifo Dyas was a Sith, he would have kicked his ass big time!!!!!

There is no chance of that of that happening.

By the way, holocrons store tons and tons of information, not some mere "wekend study course" as you said.

Palps' is probably just as old, or older than Yoda. It is possible.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Sep 29 2002, 08:34 AM
I reckon Palpatine must have a Sith Holocron as well - how else could he possess sith knowledge?
The answer to that sees obvious to me. He learned from his Master who learned from his Master, and so on.

Sifo-Dyas could be Sidious' Master, but I'm thinking probably not. I don't think a Sith would waste time contributing to the enemy's Council. I suppose he could have infiltrated just to undermine them, but I find it hard to accept that it's that easy for a Sith to remain unknown among the Jedi. I'd prefer to think that Sidious is just a particularly strong Sith, hence his ability to pull of the deception. Otherwise, any Sith could do it and the Jedi would be long dead.

[justafan]

Agent Bond,

I don't think that the Holocron is a Cliff Notes of some training. I was implying that based on the life of a politician, there wouldn't be time to dedicate to learning the ways of the Force. Not to mention that the life of an apprentice is to learn, and to serve the master, not to pursue politics. Let's not forget that Palp is from Naboo, a known and recognized system, and would have fallen under the supervision of the Jedi when looking for infants strong with the Force (the exact opposite of why Anakin wasn't discovered).

I agree, that however unlikely, it is possible that Palp is non-human, and older than we realize. That would make quite a few arguments that I disagree with make sense. But I don't agree with that arguement!:)

BorgMatrix, if the argument stands that Palp/Sid can hide from the Jedi right under their noses, then why couldn't Sifo?

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 30 2002, 07:09 PM
BorgMatrix, if the argument stands that Palp/Sid can hide from the Jedi right under their noses, then why couldn't Sifo?
Because then we could extend that to say any Sith could. And if that's the case, then it should be the Sith that are flourishing during the TPM time period and the Jedi that haven't been seen in thousands of years.

If it's that easy for the Sith to hide among the Jedi anytime they want, then they could crush them easily. It's similar to what you said in another thread about Sidious seemingly having super, invincible powers based on what everybody says. It's just too much. If the Sith are that good, there wouldn't be any competition. They'd whup the Jedi everytime.

[justafan]

I just lost the last post!

To recap, in short, I simply Thanked you, BorgMatrix, for confirming my point. If one can, then they all can. It's just that simple. How, then, could Palpy/Sid be so successful? Or, given a different argument, how did SD get discovered and kicked out/killed whatever your philosophy is on that subject? Because Yoda knows. And probably Mace as well.

They have to, otherwise any theory about Sid/Palpy/SD in whichever identity argument you choose, simply doesn't hold water. Yoda has to know, logically.

[Darth Vegas]

How do you know that if one can all can?

Some force users lack the ability to use certain force powers you know? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

That argument is stupid, because we already know that Palps' remained hiiden though right in front of the Jedi.

GL said back in '99 that Palpatine was the ancient evil Darth Sidious, he said that in Vanity Fair. I wonder what he could mean by ancient? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

Judging by how decrepid he is in ROTJ, I wouldn't doubt that he may be older than Yoda.



"You don't know the power of the Dark Side!!!!!!!"

[justafan]

No, I don't think its stupid, different from yours, but not stupid. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

The point I am making is that if Palp can do it, why is it inconceivable that someone else could also do it? And, why is it inconceivable that he may not have been successful in completely hiding himself and Yoda may have known about him?

We can't apply one set of rules to one Force user and a different set to another. Their abilities may be different, true, but the possibilies that they may share some of the same abilites is also there. The argument that Palp/Sid is a super force user, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound may be a valid argument, but that in and of itself does not reduce the abilities of the Jedi, or other Force users. I argue that the same set of rules we apply to Palp/Sid can be applied to Yoda. What Yoda may do with these additional abilities is up to him, and a complete *&*&*& mystery at this point.

I continue to argue that Yoda is aware of Palp/Sid's identity, but because of the future he has forseen, is forced to let destiny take its course without any alteration, however grand or noble we may think his actions could be. The arguement has been made by others that Anakin had to turn to the Dark side to be the Chosen one. That is fine, but if Yoda had altered the course of history that we know of (and speculate at this point), that outcome would have been altered, and the final issue, bringing balance to the Force and the universe, would be in jeopardy.

[justafan]

And, again, Agent Bond, the thought that Palp/Siduous is not human but some other older life form is intriguing.

I am not fluent in Sith History, but is the term "ancient evil Darth Siduous" a refernce to a real person from ancient times? Could this term refer to an embodiment of that ancient evil? I look to you for wisdom! ???

[Darth Vegas]

I have not a clue, whatever the "ancient evil Darth Sidious" is, it had not yet been brought out in the open in the EU, or really by GL himself, except for the fact that he has affirmed that Sidious and Palpatine are the same person, but that could change is suppose Dbldwn. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

We have not been given the details of this yet, so it could be anything.

Sidious could use clones, Sidious might just be a super old super Force user, or he just might be alien. Or all of those choices.

That's why I said, I wonder what that could mean, up there, because we really have no clue.

All we can do is theorize and wait until we finnally get ahold of the script, which shouldn't be too long from now.

If one of us is right, maybe we'll get a prize? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif


By the way I was referring to the argument that Borgmatrix had about how if a Sith, namely Sifo Dyas was hidding in the Jedi Order, than we could assume that all Sith could do the same thing, not what you posted Justafan.

I also happen to believe that Dooku had turned to the Dark Side and had contact with Sidious (Sifo Dyas, who I believe to be Dooku's former master) before he left the order. So that would mean that two Sith are hiding within the safe confines of the arrogant Jedi Order, who believes that it see's and know's all when it does not.

[justafan]

Point of fact, though, Agent Bond, that there are only two Sith, and if one could hide, the possibility is great that the other could do the same. If the Master has learned the skill, he would certainly pass it on to the apprentice. I agree, both Master and apprentice were in the Jedi order at the same time. I still disagree with your selections, but, hey, that's a dead horse.

It definately would be an exciting possibility, and would definately confirm the declining powers of the Jedi. It would also give more fuel to fire the accusations that the state of Chaos in the galaxy was the fault of the Jedi. It would also set up how Yoda and Mace know about the rule of two, and be so familiar with the Sith.

[Sith1977]

Don´t you guys think that hiding from the strongest of the Jedi, the Jedi council, 24/7 could be something that only te strongest of the Sith could do? Maybe it´s easy to hide from one Jedi (like Dooku did with Obiwan on Geonosis; I think Obiwan didn´t know Dooku to be a Sith), but not so easy to hide from 12 Jedi masters.
One thing about Sifo-Dyas being a Sith: if you cling to the 2-Sith-rule, Sifo-Dyas can´t be a Sith, because there are already 2 Sith, Sidious and Maul. Sidious might be a lot older than we all anticipate, but I don´t really believe it. At least he isn´t quite as old as Yoda.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Sith1977@Oct 2 2002, 04:56 PM
Don´t you guys think that hiding from the strongest of the Jedi, the Jedi council, 24/7 could be something that only te strongest of the Sith could do?
That's how I feel, which is why I don't believe there'd also be another Sith hiding among the Jedi. And you're right about the rule of two. Sidious and Maul were the two Sith, so that's another reason why Sifo-Dyas couldn't be a Sith.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 1 2002, 12:17 PM
The arguement has been made by others that Anakin had to turn to the Dark side to be the Chosen one. That is fine, but if Yoda had altered the course of history that we know of (and speculate at this point), that outcome would have been altered, and the final issue, bringing balance to the Force and the universe, would be in jeopardy.
It's possible, but from Yoda's words in the novel, it's clear that he doesn't know what "bringing balance to the Force" means or how it would be accomplished. The novel also seems to indicate that Yoda is uncertain of the source of the Dark Side rise and wishes to pinpoint it. To me, that doesn't fit with Yoda knowing about Palpatine and not doing anything about it.

What the novel says is that the balance arises from the rise in the Dark Side. I got the impression that if Yoda, Mace, and the others knew how to prevent it, they'd do so. In that case, a chosen one wouldn't even be needed.

I think you're right that the rise of the Sith was unavoidable, but I don't believe that Yoda knew how it was to come about. The Dark Side winning and creating the imbalance was likely dependent on the Jedi being in the dark.

[maddog62]

I think that GL wants you to believe that no matter what chooses Anikan makes he will be doing the bidding of the Force. Yoda knows this cause that is the way he live by the Will of the Force. Yoda doesn't know at what expense balance will be reached.

[justafan]

But here's the proof. As far as we know (well, as far as I know, let's say that instead), the Jedi became aware of infants strong in the Force, throughout the known galaxy. And, they weren't aware of Anakin until he was discovered by a Jedi. We also know that Luke wasn't sensed by Vader and the Emperor until he began using the Force, or causing a disturbance in it. And I am certain that Yoda felt it as well. It has been argued, but I think it is safe to say that sensing the Force is a remedial or basic skill. Remember, that is one of the first things Ben intructed Luke on in the Falcon.

That being said, anyone using the Force would be sensed causing a disturbance. It is safe to say that the Jedi know of all the Force users in the galaxy. Therefore the Sith would have been sensed, in any number. Unless, of course, as has been argued, that they employed some sort of Force negating shield of Dark side, or however you want to put it. And, as Sith1977 points out, only the strongest would be able to do it. Well, there are only two, as far as we know, and they both would be very strong.

So it is conceivable and highly likely Sith were indeed posing as Jedi at one time. Their use of Force would not be noticed, and they would have cloaked their Dark side. But I don't think completely cloaked. The Jedi Councel felt fear in Anakin as a child, and Yoda has sensed just about everything in Obi wan. The Dark side slips through now and then.

Remember we can't apply predestination and free will to the same history. One or the other applies. If what happens is preordained, then choices, actions, and knowledge can't be changed. If free will applies, then anything goes. It's Chaos theory at that point. We know the outcome, so we can be certain that each and every thing we see/read has bearing on the story. Ignorance is not bliss for the Jedi. Yoda knows his path and the destiny of the universe. He can't change what he knows will have to happen. He is a wise Jedi, and not only can he sense, but he can read the writing on the wall.

[Darth Vegas]

Hello Borgmatrix and Sith1977, were saying that Sifo Dyas is Sidious, that does not contridict the rule of two. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

We have already made that blantantly obvious to you.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 3 2002, 01:30 PM
Hello Borgmatrix and Sith1977, were saying that Sifo Dyas is Sidious, that does not contridict the rule of two. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

We have already made that blantantly obvious to you.
You're obviously not paying attention to what's being said. Earlier, Justafan said:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I think that Palpy has more than a holocron. His knowledge and power isn't something he picked up on a weekend study course. He has had some long term training.

Of course, that means there was another Sith....
[/b][/quote]

The key words here being "there was another Sith", meaning Palpy/Sidious being one, and Sifo-Dyas being the possible other and Sidious' Master.

This idea by Justafan is what we've been discussing.

[Darth Vegas]

Give an old confused man a brake, just a little misunderstanding on my part, sorry.

Yes there is no way that there's another Sith, it would only distract from the core of the story, but that does not leave out the lost 20.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 3 2002, 03:40 PM
Give an old confused man a brake, just a little misunderstanding on my part, sorry.

Yes there is no way that there's another Sith, it would only distract from the core of the story, but that does not leave out the lost 20.
No problem. Misunderstandings happen.

I've been thinking the lost 20 are probably dead. That name basically refers to all those that have left the order since it's creation, right? Or were the Lost 20 the Jedi that broke away and formed the Sith?

[maddog62]

There is no proof that any of the lost 20 are dead or alive except Dooku of course so do count out anybody.

[Darth Vegas]

You know Aurra Sing must be one of the lost 20, she was one of last Jedi in recent times to leave the order, or else Madame Jocusto Nu was wrong about that like she was about Kamino.

:look:

[Sith1977]

Maybe Sidious just used Sifo Dyas name, but I don´t think he lived a whole live as a Jedi master or even a Jedi council member.
And Sifo Dyas is definetly not Sidious master. If he is believed to be dead for 10 years, why did Maul show up at that time? Sith apprentices don´t show up like that, Maul was raised by Sidious since he was a child. And Maul does not seem to have just begun training in TPM...

[Darth Vegas]

Maul was trained in secret away from the order, he was never a Jedi.

Not all Jedi Master have apprentices, like Dooku, before he left the order he was a lightsaber instructor, his job was very similar to Yoda's (New essential Guide to Characters).

Plus they really do not know if Sifo Dyas died, Obi-Wan just assumed that he was killed, chances are he is Sifo Dyas (note the extreme similarity in the name) and he faked his death somehow.

Just wait until 2005, I'm sure me and Dbldwn, and however else agree's with this theory, will have a nice "I told you so!!!!" thread going.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 4 2002, 06:37 AM
Plus they really do not know if Sifo Dyas died, Obi-Wan just assumed that he was killed, chances are he is Sifo Dyas (note the extreme similarity in the name) and he faked his death somehow.
But neither Yoda nor Mace contradicted Obi-wan's statement that Sifo-dyas was dead. More than that, once the communication with Kenobi ended, they never discussed it either. If Sifo-dyas disappeared, surely mention of his name after all these years would bring about some conversation between the two masters. But it never came up. Probably because there's nothing to talk about. I would say Sifo-dyas is dead.

[Darth Vegas]

No they don't talk about Sifo Dyas right after that conversation, but strangely enough they talk about the Dark Lord of the Sith, and how their vision is clouded, they must have made the connection.

The wierd look they goave eachother, the fact that they couldn't answer Obi-Wan are all clues, and how 'bout those dirty looks Yoda keeps giving to Palpatine, he's suspicsious of Palpatine, and both of them must know somehting about Sifo Dyas that they are not telling, I don't think that they knew all along, but as they get more and more clues they will unravel the mystery.

[Kyan]

For years the Dark Side of the Force had grown prior to TPM. The Jedi sensed this, but did not immediately attribute this growing imbalance with the return of the Sith. The Dark Side isn't just the Sith, it's everything that's going pear-shaped or evil. Balance to the Jedi probably means 99.9% of all bad things are random, and not calculated, as were events chronicled between TPM and ROTJ by the masterminding of Palpatine. Balance was restored to the Force when the conception of evil (Palpatine) was destroyed. It took Anakin 40 or so years to fulfil his destiny, and countless lives were lost on the way, but what emerged was a New Republic that had considerably less corruption than the waning Old Republic. If you see my point of view style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[justafan]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 4 2002, 08:33 AM
both of them must know somehting about Sifo Dyas that they are not telling, I don't think that they knew all along
Thank you, Agent Bond, for confirming what I have been saying all along. They knew. I believe they knew the whole story, you do not. But at least we agree (finaly style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif ) that Yoda and Mace know much more than they let on.

Without them knowing and keeping secret, the events that unfold would be thwarted. If they told what they knew, we would have a very different OT.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 4 2002, 05:15 PM
Thank you, Agent Bond, for confirming what I have been saying all along. They knew. I believe they knew the whole story, you do not.
But that's complete speculation. I haven't seen anything that says they knew everything. Nor have I seen anything that indicates that certain events must occur and that Yoda is unable to change anything. Didn't he once say the future is always in motion?

Vader told Luke it was his "destiny" to join him. Obviously, it wasn't. The Emperor spoke of how he could forsee this and that and how everything was going as he had seen and Luke would join him like his father. Nope. Again, he was wrong. There's nothing cast in stone. If Yoda and Mace knew about Palpatine and what he was doing, they'd attempt to stop him.

After speaking with Obi-wan, and learning of the ordering of the clone army, Yoda and Mace are stunned that they never saw it coming. "Blind we are, if the development of this clone army we could not see."

In the novel, earlier, there's this exchange between Mace and Yoda:

"Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?" Mace pondered, shaking his head. "This should have been no surprise to the wary, and easy for us to predict."

"Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force," Yoda replied.

Then, a moment later: "And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future," Yoda said.

They can't see the future. They don't know anything about Palpatine's role or what he's going to do. Is there suspicion? Probably, though they're uncertain where to direct it. They know very little.

[Jedi D'oh]

these are some of the things that contradict the OT. why, if yoda and the other jedi cannot sense the future, does Yoda tell Luke he can and then when Luke asks if his friends will die, Yoda concentrates and looks on the future and says its hard to see, that always in motion is the future.

I have faith it will work out in III, but it does cause wonder. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif

[Strke Brelk]

If Yoda, etc. wanted Anakin to kill all the jedi, why did they secret Luke and Leia away so that they could be trained later to combat Vader? Yoda waited for 20 years in the middle of a swamp to train the "son of skywalker" to be a Jedi "like his father before him." Why would Yoda do that if he WANTED the jedi to be wiped out. Wouldn't that just lead to causing the imbalance to grow again?
No. Anakin achieves the balance of the Force when he kills Palpatine in RotJ. With Palpy's death, the sith are finally eradicated from the GFFA.

[Darth Vegas]

Hey I don't think Mace and Yoda knew all that much, and they certainly do not want Aankin to kill all the Jedi, balance is brought back to the force when the Sith are done way with, it has nothing to do with the number of Jedi, GL himself said on the making of AOTC web series that balance was brought back to the force when Palpatine was killed in ROTJ.

But Yoda and Mace certainly are suspicious of Sifo Dyas, and they defineately, of course they have no idea that he is the SIth Lord, but with that puzzling look they give eachother after Obi-Wan asks them about Sifo, and the fact that they did not provide an answer to him, you can be sure that they know something.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 5 2002, 03:26 AM
but with that puzzling look they give eachother after Obi-Wan asks them about Sifo, and the fact that they did not provide an answer to him, you can be sure that they know something.
The look wasn't about Sifo, it was about their inability to see the future. They said as much to each other after talking with Kenobi.

[Darth Vegas]

I don't agree.

They must have linked Sifo to their inability to see the future at that moment.

[ReturnoftheWhill]

yeah

[Darth Vegas]

Here's the link. (http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/rick/askjc20020913.html)

I'm not getting my hopes up, because I don't want to see Yoda fight again. It was great to see him with a lightsaber, but once was enough.

Going by what Mccallum said here (I wouldn't take it too seriously, he's pulled on our leg plenty of times) it sounds like Yoda may fight again.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unhappy.gif

[Winston_Sith]

That sounds absolutely exquisite.

I hope he fights "Brother Jacobus", with a lightsaber, no less. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

P.S. On the IMDB page for "Sir" Ian, it says, that the role he plays in Star Wars: Episode III is, (and I quote) "Star Wars: Episode III (2005) .... Supreme Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious"

I know, it's not "Canon", but I think that it's good enough for meesa... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif

[Winston_Sith]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>On the IMDB page for "Sir" Ian, it says, that the role he plays in Star Wars: Episode III is, (and I quote) "Star Wars: Episode III (2005) .... Supreme Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious"

I know, it's not "Canon", but I think that it's good enough for meesa... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif[/b][/quote]
Sure, there could be some clone nonsense involved... but then, Sidious could also be Anakin's father...

(both of which could actually be the case... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif )

P.S. Does this revelation about Yoda in III not guarantee that Yoda will be CG for the UE's (including TPM?)?

[Darth Vegas]

I read in the Insider a few months back, that before they knew anything about Yoda fighting in AOTC, they test animated him in several shots from ESB and ROTJ.

There are plenty of scenes in the OT where a CGI Yoda would be much better, such as when Yoda is on Lukes back and Luke is running around, you could tell that that Yoda was fake, he wasn't even moving.

I hated Yoda in TPM he was terrible. Younger Yoda? Give me a break, when your 870 years old, 30 years is not going to make you look that much older.

Also Yoda was digital in two shots in TPM, the first is when Chancellor Palpatine's shuttle arives on Naboo at the end of the film, and the Jedi are unboarding the ship, and the second is right at the beginning of the scene where Obi-Wan is given the rank of knight. They are both really unoticable, but they made an effort to point them out on the TPM dvd.

I sure hope they go back and make Yoda an entirely CGI character, he looks so much more real CGI than he does as a puppet.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[Jedi Master Shaft]

I must agree with you Agent Bond, I'd love to see a CG Yoda in Empire, Jedi, and especially Episode One.

Only a little thing, in Episode One, Master Yoda IS NOT CG when he comes out of the Chancellor Palpatine's shuttle at the end, but IS CG in the first Int. shot of the room where Qui-Gon Jinn is burnt. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tie.gif

[Darth Vegas]

No Master Shaft he is digital when he comes off of the shuttle, I looked into it.

He is not digital in the room where Qui-Gon is burned, he is digital in the scene where Obi-Wan is "knighted", it's only during the part where the it shows him walking from above.

There was no other way to do either of those shots but to make Yoda digital.

Watch the commentary on the TPM dvd, it talks about this at the end of the film.

[Jedi Master Shaft]

Indeed, Agent Bond, Master Yoda IS CG as he walks down the ramp, but I've never seen it until I checked it 5 minutes ago. I must apologize for my lack of knowledge.

But I'm still confident Yoda is CG in the very shot of the Int. of the room where Qui-Gon Jinn is burnt. The way he moves his head down,... it's not a puppet move.
May be you never saw that Yoda, he's at the top of screen, on the left, right next to Master Windu.


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tie.gif

[Darth Vegas]

I see it now, you are right Master Shaft, that means he's digital in three scenes of TPM.

It took me a while to notice the shuttle scene, but I finally picked that out, I can see why it was unnoticed by you, I'm sure it was that way for everyone, same goes for the funeral scene.

Anyway, how much credit do you give RM's info about Yoda in episode 3, not the fact that he's CGO (of course he is, I can't believe anyone asked that), but the fact that he may fight again?

[Jedi Master Shaft]

Well, I can't see how Rick McCallum could have known much of Episode III's plot when he answered the question, so I think that he's simply trying to hide the fact he knows nothing ! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

George Lucas knows what he's doing and don't do anything if there is no reason for it. Since the important fight of Episode III is going to be Anakin Skywalker-turned-Sith against General Obi-Wan Kenobi, he won't put a fighting Yoda in it again. He had fun in Clones, now he has to tie the films together.


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tie.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Exactly, RM probably knows nothing of the plot, and I agree that Yoda fighting again is not important.

In the words of the time traveler:

"You forgot about one thing, what if?!"

RM does see GL on a regular basis, and he is the producer, I'm sure he knows more than anyone else does, besides maybe GL's closest friends (Speilberg, Francis Ford Coppola, Ron Howard, Williams, the cast of episode 3.....).

[Jedi Master Shaft]

I don't if George Lucas really talks to his friends about his STAR WARS. Steven Spielberg did not even know the plot when he came on Naboo's set with George Lucas ( cf. The Beginning on Episode One's DVD ).


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tie.gif

[Darth Vegas]

He maybe not, the point is, that they may know more than RM does, but maybe not, it never states on the dvd that Spielberg has no idea of the plot for TPM, it just shows GL showing a battle droid model to Steven, it doesn't hint in any way that he didn't previously know anything about the plot.


RM being the producer and meeting with GL on a egular basis, has to know something.

Thing is in he could be just geussing about Yoda, or he might be hinting at something he knows.

I'd say the latter, even though I really do not want to see Yoda fight again, that likes too much chocolate, eventually it's just too much, but Yoda fighting stormtroopers would be fine, a lightsaber duel is another story.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 5 2002, 03:42 AM
They must have linked Sifo to their inability to see the future at that moment.
It was the "development of this clone army" that they inked to their inability to see the future.

[Darth Vegas]

Yes and the fact that Sifo Dyas ordered the army. :dunce:

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Oct 4 2002, 06:23 AM
But neither Yoda nor Mace contradicted Obi-wan's statement that Sifo-dyas was dead. More than that, once the communication with Kenobi ended, they never discussed it either
True, but they also do absolutely nothing to confirm Obi-Wan's assumption that Sifo-Dyas has died.

Actually Mace attempts to discuss Sifo-Dyas after the transmission from Obi-Wan concludes. The novelization reads as follows:

"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. "Why would Sifo-Dyas--"

"When placed, this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said, and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died.

So Mace does make an effort to talk about this new revelation but Yoda cuts him short. Notice how the last part about the order being right before Sifo-Dyas died is not spoken by Yoda or Mace? It is more like a speculative thought by the author who still, although he was given an advanced copy of AOTC so he could write the novel, doesn't have any clue what is to come in Episode III.

[Darth Whaler]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 5 2002, 02:33 PM
"You forgot about one thing, what if?!"


Time Machine right? Great movie...and soundtrack.

I agree with you about Yoda not having an actual lightsaber duel. Battling stormtroopers, deflecting laser blasts...that would be just fine by me. But I think it would be best though to keep his only duel in Episode II. It would always be one of AOTC's defining features.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Oct 5 2002, 04:38 PM
Notice how the last part about the order being right before Sifo-Dyas died is not spoken by Yoda or Mace? It is more like a speculative thought by the author who still, although he was given an advanced copy of AOTC so he could write the novel, doesn't have any clue what is to come in Episode III.
That's true. But also notice that it indicates Sifo-dyas did die.

If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died.

[justafan]

See how much fun we have when we play nice? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif This is a great discussion!

I don't believe that Yoda wanted the Jedi destroyed, but I believe that he knew it had to happen.

Let's assume that Yoda knows as much as the average movie goer. Now that precludes most of our knowledge, but bear with me on this.

If Yoda knows that Anakin/Vader will bring balance by destroying the Emperor, then he knows that an emporer must come to power. We'll assume (dangerous, I know) all the stuff about who the emporer is. Now, how do you get someone close enough to a Sith that the Sith trusts him implicitly? You let that person be an apprentice. The rest of the story that the average movie goer knows is storytelling. The jist is this--someone had to get close enough to be able to strike at the most opportune moment. Sure, this plan costs thousands of lives and it destroys the Jedi, but what would the story be if the plan was easy?

Now, let's assume that Yoda knows nothing. Oops, we can't. He has demonstrated, and you all have proven through quotes and items from places outside the average movie goer's realm, that he can and does know. About issues with SD. Issues with Dooku. Issues with Anakin, Qui Gon, Obi Wan. We simply can't argue that Yoda knows nothing.

This leaves us with accepting that he knows some premise of the entire Star Wars plot, and that is at least as much as the average Star Wars fan knows. We may have the luxury of knowing each and every turn the plot takes. He probably does not. But I believe he knows the basic premise of what needs to happen.

(BTW, I liken Yoda's questions to those directed at Grasshopper. They aren't real questions, but they are designed to make the asker find the answer themself).

[ATurnFortheWorse]

Yoda knows that the galaxy is heading into a catastrophe... his vision has been clouded. He is beginning to realize that the fall of the republic is inevitable, and this gets to him...

[borgmatrix]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If Yoda knows that Anakin/Vader will bring balance by destroying the Emperor, then he knows that an emporer must come to power. [/b][/quote]

He doesn't know exactly what "bringing balance" means, so he doesn't know it involves destroying a future Emperor. From the novel: Yoda stopped walking and slowly turned to regard the other Master, his expression showing a range of emotions that reminded Mace that they didn't know what bringing balance to the Force might truly mean.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Now, let's assume that Yoda knows nothing. Oops, we can't. He has demonstrated, and you all have proven through quotes and items from places outside the average movie goer's realm, that he can and does know.[/b][/quote]
I disagree. I quote some parts from the novel that seem to indicate otherwise. Here is some of it from a post I made above:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>In the novel, earlier, there's this exchange between Mace and Yoda:

"Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?" Mace pondered, shaking his head. "This should have been no surprise to the wary, and easy for us to predict."

"Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force," Yoda replied.

Then, a moment later: "And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future," Yoda said.
[/b][/quote]

This indicates to me that Yoda doesn't know. They can't see the future. They're truly in the dark.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Yoda CG in Ep3? Horray!!!

I loved the Yoda fight scene, but I wouldn't want to see him fight again. At least not with a lightsaber.

You all know that I'm dying to see a CG Yoda in the OT for the DVD release. Anyone who checked out the late "Ultimate Edition" thread knows my thoughts.

Rick McCallum has to know some things. He's the producer after all. You see on "The Beginning" that RM followed GL everywhere during pre-production. I doubt he's read the script, but he probably knows the plot in a jaded sort of way. GL locks out the public on details, but I don't think he'd do that to his own team.

[justafan]

Ah, but he does know what the Chosen one is supposed to do, otherwise, why would this person be the Chosen one? And, he has a pretty good hunch that Anakin is the Chosen one. Being a smart guy, I think we can believe that Yoda could put two and two together and figure out what has to happen. I think it is spelled out to us (at least in the movie--I don't have access to the other sources, and will rely on you all for that style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif ) what the Chosen one will accomplish (bringing balance to the Force). If there is so much information about this topic, in the Jedi Library (I assume) then there has to be some discussion about what the Prophecy says (if we can call it "the Prohpecy").

Yoda has indicated that he can sense the future. I suppose that we can argue that is not the same as seeing the future. I disagree with Agent Bond's assertion that Yoda was speaking of Obi on Dagobah when he referred to Luke's mind always on things other than the matter at hand, or however Yoda phrased it. Yoda has the skills needed. If he chooses to use them, that's his decision.

And, if they were in the dark, they wouldn't be true Jedi, now would they? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif I know what you meant!

[Darth Vegas]

Borgmatrix, Obi-Wan and Yoda are only assuming that Sifo Dyas is dead, if Mace seemed to give it moe thought than they did, that further indicates that they do not really know what happened to Sifo Dyas, and that they never found a body (Jedi do not have the ability yet to dissapear).

You'e not even really debating with legitimate evidence to support your theory, it sounds more like you're just really naive, and have nothing better to do but say, oh but this, and that says different.

Nothing that you have said in any way discredits the theory that Sifo Dyas is Sidious, nothing, and until you have found solid evidence, which we pretty much have for our theory, then you are wrong.

The script and novel indicate that they are the same person.

Discounting all the evidence that supports that they are the same person, why the hell would GL come up with a new Jedi character who's name Sifo Dyas is mysteriously similar to Sidiuos, if he was just going to say that someone posed as him? There is no reason whatsoever for him to do such a thing.

Also I bet they do know what it means to bring balance to the Force, as indicated by GL himself it is done when the Dark Lord of the Sith is deystroyed. The reason that Yoda indicates something about not knowing exactly how it is done, is because he also said that Skywalker will only fulfill his destiny by bringing balance to the force if he chooses to.

So yes, the Jedi who wrote the prophesy would obviously know what it means to bring balance to the Force. For all those years between the when the Jedi supposedly wiped out the Sith and TPM, most of the Jedi probably felt that balance had been brought back to the Force, but then we get to TPM, and Sith have returned, they suddenly and without a doubt know that the prophecy has not been fulfilled and that the Dark Lords are indeed back.

I bet that only Yoda and Mace had access to the Sith Holocron, and that is why all the rest of the Jedi were sceptical at first at Qui-Gon's remark that he had faced a SIth Lord. Then at the end of the film Yoda and Mace suddenly know information about the Sith ("Always two there are.......), they obviously have information that they are withholding from the others, and most likely it is for the good of all the few know the information they possess.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 7 2002, 01:50 PM
Nothing that you have said in any way discredits the theory that Sifo Dyas is Sidious, nothing, and until you have found solid evidence, which we pretty much have for our theory, then you are wrong.

The script and novel indicate that they are the same person.
I haven't seen any solid evidence anywhere. You could be right. You could be wrong. We won't know until epIII. I read the relevant parts in the novel again, and there is no evidence that Sifo-Dyas and Sidious are the same. Could you provide some page numbers and direct me to some specific paragraphs? I couldn't find anyplace that stated they are the same man. Again, they might be. But in my opinion, they're not. Just as you have your opinion, I have mine. It has nothing to do with being naive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>why the hell would GL come up with a new Jedi character who's name Sifo Dyas is mysteriously similar to Sidiuos[/b][/quote]

That remains to be seen. Assuming he isn't Sidious, we haven't even seen Sifo-Dyas, so I would hardly call him a character. If Sidious is Sifo-Dyas, then the question should be, why introduce the name Sifo-Dyas? We already have Sidious. Why two names for the same character when it's not needed? Sidious could easily order the army with his Sith name. Lama Su wouldn't know any better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Also I bet they do know what it means to bring balance to the Force, as indicated by GL himself it is done when the Dark Lord of the Sith is deystroyed.[/b][/quote]

The book says "they didn't know what bringing balance to the Force might truly mean". That's a quote from the book. I'm not the one that made that up. You yourself have quoted from the novel to defend your ideas. Are you telling me that certain parts are correct and others aren't?

[Darth Vegas]

No Borg, I said that reason Yoda does not know exactly what bringing balnce to the force is, is because itdepends on if Anakin will fulfills his destiny by doing so.

Quote from the film.......

Mace: "If the prophesy is true, than only your apprentice can bring balance back to the Force."

Yoda: "Only if he choices to follow his destiny." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 7 2002, 02:25 PM
No Borg, I said that reason Yoda does not know exactly what bringing balnce to the force is, is because itdepends on if Anakin will fulfills his destiny by doing so.
Yeah, but that's obvious.

[justafan]

An intersting point, but how can one NOT follow his destiny?

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Oct 5 2002, 01:39 PM
That's true. But also notice that it indicates Sifo-dyas did die.

If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died.
That can be chalked up as:

1) The author still assuming, like you and mostly everyone else, that Sidious has to be Palpatine. So he includes that line as his own speculation.

2) It's just continuing with the deception that has already been planted about Palpatine.

3 and most probably) At that point in the story, Sifo-Dyas is still believed to have died. So it is simply stating that if the timing of the order is right Sifo-Dyas must have done it just prior to his death. It's a book so it can include random thoughts that cannot be shown on film. Yoda and Mace are still assuming that Sifo-Dyas is dead and so the audience is meant to continue to believe that as well.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 7 2002, 03:39 PM
An intersting point, but how can one NOT follow his destiny?
In a strict sense, I guess it's not possible. But in SW, it apparantly happens. According to Vader, Luke's destiny was to join him, but that never happened.

I suppose the reality is that one can be mistaken in identifying what a person's destiny is. In Anakin's case, Yoda and Mace believe that he might be the chosen one, but they're not entirely certain. Nor are they completely certain what the prophecy means. They won't know for sure until it happens. Yeah, I know they're smart guys, but the novel paints a picture of uncertainty as far as what they know, which is obvious from the vagueness of their words.

[Darth Vegas]

Actaully Dbldwn, it's Obi-Wan and Yoda that are assuming that Sifo Dyas is dead, not Mace.

He seems to disagree with them.



___________________________________________


Justafan and Borgmatrix here's something for you to chew on.

People have destiny, they have a gole to reach, but they also have choices to make.

It clearly has been explained in Star Wars that the Force has a destiny for each Jedi, but the Jedi has a choice to make to follow that destiny, there are to paths, the Dark and the Light, and everyone has a choice. Vader choose the quick and easy way, while Luke stuck his gut out, and went all the way.

Mace clearly believes that Anakin is the chosen one,

"If the Prophesy is correct, than your apprentice is the only one that can bring back balance to the Force."

Yoda replies, "Only if chooses he does, to follow his destiny."

They understand that just as much as Anakin is the chosen one, he is also human, and he has the same choice to make as everyone else.

Everyone is tempted, but not all fall. Jedi are not supernatural beings that are above sin, each and every one of them has been tempted by the Dark Side, all of them have, and thankfully most of them have made the right choice by taking side's with the Light.

GL put it this way once before I believe, I don't remember the exact quote, but he basically said, that the rick was that something happened that was not destined, the one that had fallen to the Dark Side, was redeemed, and was able to fulfill his destiny and the prophesy, by bringing balance to the force, and getting rid of the evil in the universe.

Anakin's destiny is to bring balance to the Force, to deystroy the Sith forever, but the problem is that he has attachments, he has things he can't let go of.

In the bible Jesus said to his deciples that they could not follow him unless they became unattached to their families, God had to become their first priority, and they had to leave their families behind.

Well the same thing goes for the life of a Jedi, no more attachments, Jedi are not allowed to copntinue on their relationships with their blood families, the Jedi order is thier new family. The problem is that Anakin had already come to an age where it was impossible for him to become unattached, he was too old to be trained. But since the council indeed discovered that the Sith had returned, and since Anakin had ended the conflict on Naboo by deystroying the control ship, they realized that he was the Chosen One spoken of in the prophesy.

It was only Yoda that still remained sceptical of the boy, but Obi-Wan pressed the issue, and Anakin was given to him as his apprentice.

On the TMP dvd GL explained Obi-Wan's line "I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda, I was wrong." He said that Qui-Gon was pressing for the boy to skip the first part of his training with Yoda, and since he was already 10 years old, be given to a Jedi Master to be trained as his apprentice. In fact he wanted to train him himself, and further pressed that Obi-Wan was ready to face the trials. In them end it all worked out that Obi-Wan deystroyed the Sith Lord, and the rank of Knight was given to him, and Anakin became his apprentice.

It was the will of the Force.

The problem was that Anakin had attachments to both his mother and to Padme. Chancellor Palpatine knowing this had Padme placed under the protection of Anakin and Obi-Wan, all the while, he knew that his apprentice, Darth Tyrannus had hired a Bounty Hunter to assassinate the Senator.

If Padme had died, and Palpatine knew this, Anakin would have turned to the Dark Side. It happened differently though, and Anakin in turn escorted the Senator back to Naboo, where after a short while of hiding out, they ended up going to Tatooine where Shmi died in her son's arms, and Anakin took his first steps toward the Dark Side.

Palpatine defineately knows that Anakin is the chosen one, and he defineately knows that he has attachments, and who he is attached to.

Palpatine could sense the Future, he could see Shmi's pain, while the other Jedi could not. Anakin could however, and being that he was with Padme and had already considered defying the Jedi Order, and trying to convince Padme to have a secret relationship with him, he had already delved into the devious, and had a taste of the Dark Side.

Since he was disturbed and worried about his mother (which are of the Dark Side) he could sense her, and he went to Tatooine.

He did fail, and then he asked, "Why couldn't I save her I know I could have!?" That to me further proves that Palpatine knew the outcome of Anakin's attempt to save his mother even before it happened, and that he was giving Anakin false information, telling him he was all powerful, that he could become the greatest of all Jedi, when he knew that Anakin would fail.

At the moment when Anakin failed, Yoda sensed what had happened, he sensed that he was in pain, and he heared Qui-Gon's voice, it's almost as if the action that Anakin had made caused Qui-Gon to be brought back from the dead.

Yoda understands clearly, as everyone else does, that Anakin is the Chosen One, who's destiny is to fulfill the prophesy and bring balance to the Force. But he also understands that he has to make the choice to do so.

So it seems that even in the midst of certain defeat, the Force always finds away to bring forth destiny, to make it's will be done.

There is destiny, there is choice, but over all of them, there is the will of the Force.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[Grand Moff Tarkin]

<marquee><span style="color:white"><font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=red)'>Bravo. Well done Agent Bond.</font></span></marquee>

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[justafan]

I like your train of thought, Agent Bond. But, I want to make sure that we understand that the choice Anankin makes may not be what we think. The choice Yoda is referring to is the choice to fall, not neccesarily the choice to remain Light. Had Anakin not turned, he wouldn't have been the Chosen one. The path of the light was obviously not the destiny for Anakin. His choice was his, but it was made easier (if that is the correct term) by Palpatine/Siduous.

And, in the end, Luke did join his father, except it was in homecomming, not in a vengeful urusption of authority. Destiny was fulfilled, but not in the way that most people think. Obi Wan set the foundation for all of us when he said "from a certain point of view".

That's the trick to destiny. Looking at it from different points of view.

[Darth Vegas]

No Justafan, Anakin is the Chosen One, and even though he turned he still was the Chosen One.

He had a destiny to follow, but instead of deystroying the Sith he became one.

GL himself said that he was redeemed by his chlidren, and allowed to fulfill his destiny by deystroying the Sith.

There is a destiny, and there is one path that will lead to that destiny, and theirs another path that strays away from it, but there is always the option to turn around and go back, and that's what Anakin did.

The Force is not a puppet master, it's a delicate task master, it's yoke is easy, thought the path to becoming a Jedi is not so easy in the eyes of those that have gone down it.

Vader choose the quick and easy way, and in the end he went back, and once again became the good man Anakin and fulfilled the prophesy, which was his destiny as the chosen one.

He choose not to fulfill his destiny for some reason, and you know what is the greatest reason of all? Palpatine was lying in his ear, I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedi Anakin..........he was boasting his pride way up, making him more and more arrogant, and when he found out that he was not all powerful (he couldn't save his mother, and maybe won't be able to save Padme) he took his first step towards the Dark Side.

Everyone has a destiny, and the choice whether or not to follow it.

"Always in motion, the future is." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[justafan]

My argument is that the path Anakin travelled was the destined path. He had to do what he did in order to fulfill the prophesy. What would we have if he didn't turn? One more dissolusioned Jedi. By coming back, at the end, he did indeed become the greatest Jedi. He literally stood at death's door, redeemed his ways by the power of the Light, and brought balance. It couldn't have happened any other way. Luke's destiny was to stand at the precipice, like his father, but to choose to not fall. Obi Wan's destiny was to see Vader/Anakin grow, rise, rebel, fall, and then in his own death, begin the turn back to the light.

The argument that everyone has a destiny, and a choice to follow it is self defeating. You can't have destiny and choice. It's one or the other. I argued before, and stick to it: we know the outcome, so we can rest assured that everything that happens prior to that happens for a reason. Think of your life. If you knew what was going to happen to you in the next 10 years, would you change anything you do? If so, then you change that destiny, and what you thought would happen in 10 years is no longer valid, because the actions have changed.

This all ties with my assertation that Yoda knows what has to happen. That is why he is helpless to make any changes to what happens. IT WILL ALTER THE OUTCOME.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 8 2002, 02:41 PM
This all ties with my assertation that Yoda knows what has to happen. That is why he is helpless to make any changes to what happens. IT WILL ALTER THE OUTCOME.
I don't doubt that Yoda was powerless to change events, but it doesn't make sense to me that he knew what was to occur. If he knows what is to happen, then he's no longer helpless and outcomes can be altered. But if he doesn't realize the truth until too late, then he's helpless and the outcome can't be altered.

[Darth Vegas]

From an Episode 1 poem commercial.........

Qui-Gon:

A path has been set before you, the choice is yours to make.

From AOTC,

Mace: "If the prophesy is true, than only Obi-Wan's apprentice can bring the force back into balance."

Yoda: "Only if he chooses to follow his destiny."

IN every major religion it is the same basic structure:

Destiny, choice, and the will of god/karma/etc.etc.

It is the same thing with the Force.

Every Jedi has a destiny, every Jedi has a choice to make, between the Light Side and the Dark Side, but even though, the Force has a will of it's own.

All of those things exist, but none of them are absolute.

Anakin has a destiny, but he is going to make a choice, he's going to turn to the Dark Side of the Force, and the outcome of his destiny thus will change.

Destiny is not absolute, there are things that control and direct it, you have to make the choice to fulfill it, and in the end Anakin did.

He did not have to turn to the Dark Side only to de redeemed in order to fulfill his destiny, he simply could have stuck it out and stayed with the Light, and deystroyed the Sith rather than joining them.

The problem is that he has attachments and he has his past, and those things conflict with his life as a Jedi, and those things single handidly are going to lead him in the wrong direction, when instead of dealing with those issues and getting past them, he expects someone else to do it, and that is the product of his downfall, straight from the mouth of the horse.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Grand Moff Tarkin]

I have to agree with bond. If Anakin had stuck it out,
then his destiny would have been fulfilled much sooner.

But, he chose to become a sith, in turn, prolonging
his destiny. Kind of putting it on hold, until he was redeemed.

[justafan]

Again, you're mixing destiny with choice, and you can't do that. There aren't alternate destinies. There is only one destiny, and one way to get to it. Simply killing the Sith would not bring balance, and we've gone over that earlier. Destiny is just that, it is what is supposed to happpen. I've said it before, and I say it again, we know the outcome, so we know that everything that happens, has to happen, to get to the outcome that we know. If we didn't know what was going to happen in the end, then the gig is up, and choices rule. But we do know, so destiny takes over.

Everything Anakin did, was what he was supposed to do to fulfill the prophecy. Yoda's knowledge, however deep you argue it to be, was only that--knowledge. He knew that what was happening had to happen exactly as it was happening. That is the way destiny works.

[Darth Vegas]

It even says in the damn movie that Anakin can only follow his destiny if he chooses to.

Destiny, choice, and the will of the Force are not absolute.

People are not controlled by some unseen Force, they have a choice to follow one path or the other, and they have a choice to turn around and go back.

The Sith are the unbalance, they are perverting the Force, they are not a natural element of the Force.

GL said that Anakin fulfilled his destiny when he was redeemed back to the Light Side, and once again became the good man Anakin and killed Palpatine.

He made choice to follow his destiny, he did not have to. Maybe you should listen to the movies more closely, it has been clearly stated in the films that in order to fulfill your destiny you have to choose to.

"Of course you must do what you feel is right.
_______________________________

"Only if he chooses to follow his destiny."

_______________________________

"You cannot escape your destiny, you must face Darth Vader again."

"I can't do it Ben, I can't kill my own father."

"Then the Emporer has already won, you were our only hope."

________________________________

Destiny is not absolute!!!!!!!

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 9 2002, 12:56 PM
If we didn't know what was going to happen in the end, then the gig is up, and choices rule.
And that's how it is for the characters in the movie. They don't have copies of the movies to pull out and watch like in Space Balls to see how things turn out. For them, it's the present, the future hasn't happened yet, and they're faced with choices that will determine their future.

[justafan]

Now there is no need to curse at me, ok? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif

Destiny is absolute, otherwise, they would call it free will.

And you are wrong, Agent Bond. Sith are not the unbalance. And, they are a natural element of the Force. If there is to be balance, there has to be equalily. Ying and Yang.

If there was no Dark side, how would one measure the Light?

I certainly appreciate your attention to details, as evidenced by your continual corrections regarding my posts. The movies do refer to choosing to follow your destiny. My argument does contradict that. I argue that any choice you make is the one that destiny has made for you. My proof lies in the movies themselves. I will continue to say this: We know the outcome, therefore, everything we see/read/whatever has a direct bearing on that outcome. Any alterations would change the outcome. Since the outcome is set, nothing can change.

Does anyone have a better explanation on how destiny applies in the Star Wars world?

And, dear Agent Bond, your zealous adhearance to free will is admirable. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

Oh, and Ben was referring to killing Vader the way that Anakin was killed, don't you think?

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 9 2002, 06:05 PM
We know the outcome, therefore, everything we see/read/whatever has a direct bearing on that outcome. Any alterations would change the outcome. Since the outcome is set, nothing can change.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but isn't that obvious? I don't think anyone's expecting the OT events to change. We know that's set.

[Darth Vegas]

I'm sorry that you disagree but by deystroying the Sith and doing away with evil, Anakin restored balance, I didn't say that GL did.

The Force is not Buddism, there is no yin and yang in the Force.

Anakin could have just as easily deystroyed the Sith without ever joining them.

As I said before, even the world largest religons have the same structure, destiny, and choice, and the will of whatever god, and none of them are ever absolute.

The movies do in fact refer to choosing to follow your destiny in ATTACK OF THE CLONES YODA SAID CONCERNING ANAKIN BRINGING BALANCE TO THE FORCE, "ONLY IF HE CHOOSES TO FOLLOW HIS DESTINY."

Also Obi-Wan never said a thing about killing Vader to Luke, he said that Luke had to face him, plain and simple, not kill him, face him.


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[justafan]

Borgmatrix, my argument is that since the end is set, then the actions leading up to it have to remain what they are--they can't change. Therefore, the decisions that are made are the correct and destined decisions that needed to be made, to bring us to the final event, that we know has already been set.

Agent Bond, although GL said it, killing the Sith is not what brings balance. A balance means equal on both sides. Reducing the Jedi is what brings balance. I suppose that in the end, when there are one Sith (Vader) and one Jedi (Luke), then there is balance. Once Vader turns, Palpy is dead, and Luke lives, we are again at an imbalance.

And Ying and yang was an example, not suggestive that the Force is a "real" religion.

Choosing to follow your destiny is a misnomer. The movies may have said that, but it doesn't make sense. As you are aware, there are numerous things in the SW universe that don't make sense, and that is just a good example.

[Darth Vegas]

GL said that by killing the Sith Anakin brought balnce, it ahs nothing to do about equal sides, there is balance to the Force because the Soith were deystroyed, that is what GL said.

There are two paths a Jedi can take, two destinies, the Light Side, and the Dark SIde.

[justafan]

I get the feeling this is falling on deaf ears, but oh well.

I think you, Agent Bond, and even GL, are confusing the path with the destination. Setting SW aside, and looking only at destiny and free will, they are two separate philosophies that are mutually exclusive--one negates the other.

For example, driving from New York to LA, where you have a million different routes to take to get to one place. That is free will--you can pick and choose whichever route you want, and even go back and change it if you like. But you still have the choice of the route, and almost any one will get you to your destination.

Destiny, however, is driving from New York to LA via a maze. You have picked the destination, and you can select a path, but there is only one way that will get you there. Any turn you make with only direct you back to the path you need to be on, either by looping or turning you around.

All the mish-mash we've been discussing about what Yoda, Mace, Palpy/Siduous knows revolves around destiny. Anakin's destiny was to bring balance. How would that happen? I think Yoda knew excatly what we know. But no matter what choice he made, he knew that the outcome would be the same--that Vader would grow up, and Luke would eventually get him to turn back. He may have had doubts, concerns, a "lack of faith" in the way things were being handled, but I argue that if he was a true believer of destiny, in the truest sence of the defined word (unfortunately not yours GL definition), then he would know what was to happen, was to happen.

[justafan]

And, BorgMatrix, let me clarify more. If we are to believe that Anakin could have made different choices to fulfull his destiny, then the outcome of the entire story would be different than what we know. Let's assume he chose not to tell Luke he was his father. Luke wouldn't have known, and then would not have tried to turn Vader but kill him. If that was the case, then the Emperor would not have been destroyed, and we have a different outcome.

Let's say that Anakin chose to obey the Jedi orders and not get married. Where would the twins be? We would have a different outcome. Or if Vader chose not to kill Obi on the Death Star. Or if he had not chosen Boba Fett but IG-88 in Bespin. Each decision yields different outcomes.

My point being is that we see everyones destiny played out exactly as it is preordained to happen. The choices they make are the ones that are supposed to be made to render the specific outcome that we get. Therefore, if Yoda knows the outcome from sencing/seeing/crystal balling the future, he knows the events that unfold are unfolding as they should.

[borgmatrix]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>A balance means equal on both sides. Reducing the Jedi is what brings balance. I suppose that in the end, when there are one Sith (Vader) and one Jedi (Luke), then there is balance. Once Vader turns, Palpy is dead, and Luke lives, we are again at an imbalance.
[/b][/quote]

But that's assuming that good and evil carry equal weight. I don't believe they do. In AOTC, we have only 2 Sith, yet the Jedi are extremely weakened in Force ability. That's where we have an inbalance. Reducing the Jedi isn't what brings balance, it's eliminating the Sith.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And, BorgMatrix, let me clarify more. If we are to believe that Anakin could have made different choices to fulfull his destiny, then the outcome of the entire story would be different than what we know. [/b][/quote]

I understand that the OT is what happened and that choices can't be changed in the PT, otherwise the OT would change.

What I'm saying is that since events turned out as they did in the OT, Yoda does not know everything that was to occur. If he did, he would have acted on that knowledge, and events would have changed. Consider "Back to the Future II", where Biff of the future comes back in time and gives his younger self future knowledge. What happens? Future events are changed. If Yoda truly knew the future, we'd have a similar situation. He could easily defeat Palpatine. But he doesn't, because he doesn't have that knowledge.

That's what I'm disagreeing with. As both the AOTC movie and book indicate, they cannot see the future because of the Dark Side. They don't know everything.

[Darth Vegas]

Justafan, no one is saying thazt the outcome will be different, all we are saying is that it could have been different, Anakin could have fulfilled his destiny without ever joining the Sith.

Yoda does not know the Future, as far as he's concerned, Anakin will only be ablw to fulfill his destiny, if he cooses to, and once he turned, he was convinced there was no ho hope for him to do it. "Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny."

But things didn't happen that way, Anakin was redeemed from the Dark Side, and he did fulfill his destiny, "I know there's still good in you, the Emporer hasn't driven it from you fully, that is why you couldn't bring yourself to deystroy me, that's why you won't bring me to your Emporer now."

Obviously, Anakin had tried to defy his destiny, to go away from it, but he nver had fully turned, as Luke said. That is why he was able to be redeemed and able to fulfill the prophesy.

As I said, there is a destiny for every Jedi, and that's to become one with the Force, to master it's abilities, to learn all knowledge, yadayada. But there are two choices, there is the light, and the dark, Anakin choose the Dark, the Dark Side does not lead to good, it does not lead to becoming one with the Force, it lead to death and destruction. But Anakin was the exception, because he always had a little good left in him, despite the fact that he had defied his destiny and identity, and became Darth Vader.

[ATurnFortheWorse]

I hope George clarifies Yoda's race in Episode III, I hate it how all the other Jedi automaticly have a home planet and a race, and Yoda, whose been around since 1980, hasn't been givin a race yet. It's been 22 years george. The character who saved your second episode. Give him a break, he needs a group to fit into.

[justafan]

I refuse to yield!
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

If Yoda can say that "Clouded this boys future is" then he can see the future, otherwise it could not be clouded to him.

Palpy is always going on about how he has forseen something.

Here we have the two most powerful representatives of Light and Dark referring to the future in a manner in which they see/sense/fortell. I can't fathom how that is not knowing the future.

Since they know the future, they know how it must play out, and it must play out in the way that it does (the way that we see). I like the thought that R2 could project a hologram of E4 for the gang to see what was next, but that isn't needed. Vader's power was in his anger. That is the only way he was able to hunt down and defeat the Jedi (or help the Empire do it). The Jedi themselves, in number, weren't strong enough to defeat one other Jedi (Vader). Vader had to benefit from the strength of the Dark Side. That is how Luke got the upper hand on Vader, just a Palpy was giving us play by play in ROTJ. Anakin could not "fulfill his destiny" by choosing to remain light. It would not have worked.

Yoda knows how things will play out. I'm not saying he is omnicient, only that he knows the parts that everyone is going to play. The premise that he is an unwitting pawn in this is nonsense. If he was completely in the dark, he would not be conerned if Anakin was the chosen one, wouldn't worry about the Sith, and wouldn't separate the twin's. Since he knows that Luke plays a pivitol role in the balance plot, Luke has to be separated from Anakin. Why do it for any other reason? And, for that matter, why does Yoda keep track of Luke (I know Agent Bond, for one, feels that Yoda was speaking of Obi when they discussed this on Dagobah, but I argue that he was indeed talking about Luke when he referred to his mind always on something else [or whatever the phrase was]) while Luke is growing up? Because he knows how important Luke is. Why does Yoda decide to provide Jedi training to Luke at such a late age, after he balked at training his father at a much younger age? Because Yoda knows how important Luke is.

Are you starting to get the drift?

[justafan]

And, BorgMatrix, I think somewhere we have all touched on the balance of Light and Dark, and I am intrigued by your assertation that good and evil ( I assume you are referring to Light and Dark) don't carry the same weight. I still argue that "balance" requires equal amounts, but the thought that they aren't proprotional is valid, and would be worth entertaining at some point in a lengthy discussion of its own....

Perhaps....

(thanks for bringing it up! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif )

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 12 2002, 01:21 AM
If Yoda can say that "Clouded this boys future is" then he can see the future, otherwise it could not be clouded to him.
But by saying that, he's essentially admitting he can't see Anakin's future. He tried to see it, as Force users have done in the past, but at that point the Dark Side has already begun to grow and he can't see through the "cloudiness".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Palpy is always going on about how he has forseen something.[/b][/quote]

I'm not sure about the movie, but in the novel, Yoda says that only by probing the Dark Side can one see the future. Hence Palpatine's ability to manipulate everything so masterfully, while the Jedi struggle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Vader had to benefit from the strength of the Dark Side. That is how Luke got the upper hand on Vader, just a Palpy was giving us play by play in ROTJ. Anakin could not "fulfill his destiny" by choosing to remain light. It would not have worked. [/b][/quote]

I'm not sure that Dark Side fighters are more powerful, though. There's no doubt that Luke's anger helped him overpower Vader. But that's not the only way to win a battle. At the end of TPM, Obi-wan calmed himself, allowed the Force to flow through him, then leapt up and over Maul to cut him in half. There was no anger at that moment. In AOTC, Yoda kept his cool and drove Dooku away. Most likely Anakin did need to become Vader to fulfill the prophecy, but it's possible there were other ways.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If he was completely in the dark, he would not be conerned if Anakin was the chosen one, wouldn't worry about the Sith, and wouldn't separate the twin's. [/b][/quote]

Only someone that sees absolutely no threat would have such a lack of concern, and I never said that was the case with Yoda. He does know the Sith are out there. He does know that the Dark Side is growing. He does know the Republic is in great danger. What I'm saying is that he does not know that Palpatine is the Sith Lord Sidious and he does not know exactly what Sidious is going to bring about.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And, BorgMatrix, I think somewhere we have all touched on the balance of Light and Dark, and I am intrigued by your assertation that good and evil ( I assume you are referring to Light and Dark) don't carry the same weight. [/b][/quote]

It would make for some interesting discussion. From what we're seeing in the prequels, it appears that the Dark side does carry more weight, since only two Dark Siders are weakening thousands of Jedi with their actions.

[Darth Vegas]

When the man oin the black suit killed Palpatine he was no longer Vader, he was once again the good man Anakin, he could have done the same thing without joining the Sith.

[justafan]

I agree that Yoda's vision of the future was clouded, but not blinded. "The going is tough" means we are going, only it is tough.

And I like the concept that Palpy can see the future more clearly than the Jedi. It supports my argument about why he was angry when Luke refused to turn. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Obi wan wasn't facing Vader or the Emperor, he was facing Maul, whom, we all have agreed, was a sub par Sith. And for an appentice, his (Obi) anger is what allowed him to survive the fight with Maul as long as he did (Qui Gon struggled in two fights to survive, and lost the second). Maul was a sub par Sith, but was obviously more gifted the sabre welding skills (as demonstrated by his defeat of Qui Gon).

Agent Bond, you're begining to see the light! Your point about who killed Palpy is paramount to the balance argument. Vader couldn't have killed Palpy, only Anakin could have, and the only way Anakin could have was through his destiny as Vader. Unless he had become Vader, Anakin could not have been at the right place and the right time in the right circumstances where Palpy would be most vulnerable.

This is the nature of the future that Yoda knew--that Anakin did have to be where he was when the time was right, otherwise....

[Darth Vegas]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yoda knows nothing!!! He said Anakin's future was clouded, because he could not see it!!!!!!

He could have done it either way, he did not have to become Darth Vader.

That is my entire point here, and it is absolutely right, no matter what you say.

Obviously since it was Anakin that killed the Emporer, and fulfilled his destiny, then he could have done it without becoming Darth Vader.

Yoda know's nothing, he does not see Anakin's future, not the slightest little bit of it.

You fail to see what truly brings balance to the Force, and that's getting rid of the evil in the universe, the Sith, and that is what Anakin did, and could have done without taking the detour.

If Yoda felt that Anakin was one day going to be a Sith, which he is not, then he would not have allowed Anakin to be trained.

It is not the will of the Foce for all of the Jedi to be killed, only for a New Hope to arise to bring down the Empire and deystroy the Sith, No way.

Anakin allowed himself to be betrayed by the Dark SIde, he became Darth Vader, and he defied his destiny and his true identity.

Your getting your info from the stupid Dark Empire, where Luke felt that the only way to defeat the Sith was to become one, well I got news for you, he found out that he was wrong, and Anakin did not have to fall to the dark side in order to later be redeemed so that he could fulfill his destiny.

Destiny is not absolute, there are things happening right now that direct what is going to be the outcome of the future.

Yoda himself said, "Always in motion is the future."

He understands but one thing about Anakin, and that is he will only fulfill his destiny if he chooses to.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 12 2002, 11:58 AM
I agree that Yoda's vision of the future was clouded, but not blinded. "The going is tough" means we are going, only it is tough.
Okay, but there's a very fine line here between which is which. I think seeing is a little different than "going". Repeatedly, Yoda has made mention of the Dark Side clouding everything to the extent that he can't really say what's going to happen. For instance, when Palpatine asks Yoda if it will really come to war. Yoda doesn't know. There's enough of a cloud that for all intents, he is blind when it comes to seeing the future.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Obi wan wasn't facing Vader or the Emperor, he was facing Maul, whom, we all have agreed, was a sub par Sith[/b][/quote]

That I don't agree with. We might have seen little of Maul, but that says nothing about how good he was. Simply losing to a Jedi isn't reason enough to call him subpar. He was handling two Jedi with relative ease before he let his guard down at the end.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Unless he had become Vader, Anakin could not have been at the right place and the right time in the right circumstances where Palpy would be most vulnerable.
[/b][/quote]

Not necessarily. If Anakin hadn't turned, he most likely would have survived the purge, since he is the Chosen One. Then he could have confronted the Emperor as Luke had. I admit this is a big if, though, since Anakin's personality and temperament suggest it would have been difficult for him to make any choices other than the ones he did. I think you're most likely right. Anakin was never strong enough on his own to turn away from the grip of the Dark Side. He needed his son to redeem him.

[justafan]

Well, I see that BorgMatrix and I are at least on the same page now, even though there are still some minor details yet to iron out. (If Anakin wasn't to turn, defeat the Sith, turn back, and live happily ever after, then what did being "the chosen one" mean?) However, I think Agent Bond is going to be a tougher sell.

BTW, I have read probably the first four EU books after ROTJ (if that is what you consider EU), and while entertaining, I find they lack the true spirit of the OT. But, that's a discussion for a different thread.

I challange you, Agent Bond, to come up with a way, a logical, definable way, that Anakin could have defeated the Sith without becoming one. You must use a) the knowledge that we all have from the OT, and b) the knowledge that we have from the new trilogy (what's the abreviation for that?). No clues or knowledge from script, novelazation, Insider, EU, nothing that an average movie goer would care less about, only what we all have seen on the big screen. You must be able to not only keep him from turning, but make the story last not only to complete the first trilogy, but to include the length of the OT as well. That's what we have now, so that is what we need for a replacement.

If you can do that, I will agree with you all the live long day, and will sing your praises as a true Star Wars Guru as long as you and I remain posting here.

I don't think you can, because the story can't be told in any other way. As such, my ascertations are all indeed correct. Yoda cannot know "nothing" as you indicate. If he did, he wouldn't be the cheif Jedi, wouldn't take a child in that was too old, and wouldn't attempt to save Anakin and Obi to let Dooku escape. Yoda knows how things must play out, and until you can provide a different story, I think we will simply not agree on this topic style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif

[conron_montyn23]

alright i have the answer! anakin converts back to the light side, when he kills palpatine, therefore he brings balance to the force! there u have it! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by conron_montyn23@Oct 12 2002, 08:33 PM
alright i have the answer! anakin converts back to the light side, when he kills palpatine, therefore he brings balance to the force! there u have it! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
Not to be rude or anything but that has been said by many people, many times, many moons ago.

But at least you do understand that that is how and when Anakin does complete his destiny.

[justafan]

DblDwn, I don't think you are insinuating anything, but just in case....( you can be sharp sometimes!) style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif

I do think that Vader turning back to Anankin was the key to his being the chosen one, and that it indeed was his destiny. But it was his destiny, not his choice.

And to bring it back to topic (for Agent Bond style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif ), I believe that Yoda knew that Anakin had to turn, and thus so did Vader. Yoda also knows much more than we give him credit for, but are unable to document or proove, until E3 actually sheds light on this, and ensures my correctness style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif .

[nerfer]

<span style="color:c1007e"><span style="font-family:comic sans ms">

Not really sure how it plays into any of this. It probably doesn't at all, considering EU stuff isn't really cannon. But in the NJO the force is being redefined. Rather than their being a light and a dark side of the force. The two things are seen more as just the feelings of a normal person. That is, anger is not of the darkside but just of the person feeling angry. So anger is not really a darkside emotion, but how it is used is of the darkside.

In which case, Anakin never really turned. He got angry and used that anger in bad ways. And then with most bad things he didn't know how to get himself out of it. Luke showed him the way...... I mean as much as Vader killed the Jedi and the rebels. He also wasn't adverse to killing peeps from the Empire's military. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif </span></span>

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 13 2002, 03:40 AM
And to bring it back to topic (for Agent Bond style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif ), I believe that Yoda knew that Anakin had to turn, and thus so did Vader. Yoda also knows much more than we give him credit for, but are unable to document or proove, until E3 actually sheds light on this, and ensures my correctness style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif .


That is totally proposterous, no way in hell did Anakin have to join the Sith, or did anyone know that was going to, or had to, it is never even remotely hinted at that had to do so, there is absolutely no basis for that.

Of course Anakin could have chosen a different path, it's not another "join or die" thing, he chooses to do so, he absolutely comes to a point where he hates the Jedi for some reason, and you know why? Because Palpatine lies to him and manipulates him and boasts his ego way up there, oh and you can't forget, the Jedi are having a little problem with a clouded vision of the future. I'm sure Anakin is not beyond that.

I think that may have been what Yoda meant when he said: "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emporer, or suffer your fathers fate you will."

Vader also said: "Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the Dark SIde, I must obey my master."

Luke certainly could have gone either way, he came dangerously close to the Dark Side, but he did not turn did he!?!?!

There is no reason to believe that Anakin had to become Vader in order to get close enough to the Emporer so he could kill him.




Oh and nerfer,


"Fear is the path of the Dark Side, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."

"Yes run, remember a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the Dark Side, anger, fear, aggression, the Dark Side of the Force are they, easily they flow, easily they flow, but be warned when you fight. Once you start down the Dark Path forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

"But if you choose the quick and easy way as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

"Vader was seduced to the Dark Side of the Force, he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader."

"Your gravely mistaken, you won't convert me as you did my father."

"Good I can feel your anger. Take your Jedi weapon, I am unarmed, strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the Dark SIde will be completed."

"Use your aggressive feelings boy, let the hate flow through you."

"Give yourself to the Dark Side, it is the only way that you can save your friends, yes your thoughts betray you, your feelings for them are strong. Especially for sister so you have a twin sister, Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me, now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhapse she will."

"You have controlled you fear, now release you anger!!! Only your hatred can deystroy me."

[nerfer]

<span style="color:c1007e"><span style="font-family:comic sans ms">

Yea but the darkside, referred to, could still just be the darkside within oneself, as opposed to an actual darkside of the force. Its just easier to explain it the way Yoda and the Emperor did. After all, it depends on your point of view style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif </span></span>

[Darth Vegas]

NO.

"Beware of the Dark Side, anger, fear, agression, the Dark Side of the Force are they............"

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 13 2002, 11:44 PM
There is no reason to believe that Anakin had to become Vader in order to get close enough to the Emporer so he could kill him.
I would say there is. In ROTJ, look at how Luke fared when he confronted the Emperor. He was on the ground, helpless, as Sidious sprayed him with Force lightening.

What Anakin have done differently? He would likely face the same thing, but unlike Luke, he wouldn't have a relative standing by to jump the Emperor from behind.

[justafan]

Agent Bond, please, there is no need to use such language in a lighthearted discussion such as this. I am beginning to loose respect for you. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif

Anyway, two things:

1) What exactly is your interpretation of what being the "Chosen One" means (not based on what GL said, or any Insider type info, just what you think), meaning, what do you think the "Chosen One" must do to be the "Chosen One"?

and

2) I really liked your rebuttal with the quotes. I disagree with your point of view (regarding choice and destiny) but appreciate the fact that you supported your argument with items taken in context from the movies. It makes understanding your reasoning a lot better. Thanks style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth Vegas]

I believe what GL said because what he says as far as Star Wars is the way it is. There is no disputing it. He said that Anakin fulfilled the prophesy by deystroying the Emporer, and that is what I KNOW.

You guys are making it sound like Anakin didn't really turn, that he never was a Sith, like he planned it to happen the way that it did, and no he did not, it just happened, because choices were made, and they had an effect.

He defied the Jedi Order and his Master by going to Tatooine, and by marrying Padme. Those things were direct precursors to his fall, and he himself admitted that marrying Padme would deystroy him, but never the less he choose to do so, and who would have known that any good would come out of that, when it caused so much destruction?

His redemption had nothing to with destiny, he threw away all that when he put to death his true form and self, it had to do with choice, he clearly can be seen deciding just what he should do when he's watching his son get fried.

Again I shall quote from Master Yoda:

"If you CHOOSE the quick and easy path as VADER DID you will become an agent of evil."

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[justafan]

I do believe Anakin/Vader both turned, and that is what had to happen for balance to be brought to the Force. My argument has always been that regardless what decisions are made by anyone, that those were the preordained decisions that had to be made. We see it as choice on the screen, but destiny is in control.

I don't think that Anankin planned for his life to do what it did, it just happened. Like your life and mine.

And, again, I agree that GL is the source when it comes to SW. But I was curious to know your own personal thoughts. It sounds like you are hiding behind GL....

And, BTW, Yoda didn't say "like Anakin did", he said "Vader". That would be different, wouldn't it? :0

[Darth Vegas]

No it wouldn't, because at that point Luke did not know that they were in fact the same person, if Yoda had said Anakin he would have not only spoiled the surprise at the end, but would've been putting a burden on Luke, which he was not ready for.

But Luke forced it upon himself when he choose to save his friends, and risk losing not only his own life, but also risk the very cause of the Rebellion. Because if Luke had failed completely freedom would have never happened.

So there is another excellent example of the choices they made that dictated the future, it could have gone the other way.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

"If you CHOOSE the quick and easy path as VADER DID you will become an agent of evil."

That line totally proves my point, Vader choose to turn to the Dark Side.

I'm not hiding behind anything, I have no "personnel" thoughts on how Anakin is the chosen one and how he brings balance to the Force, and you know why? It because those question have been answered already, there is no more debate.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 14 2002, 05:12 PM
That line totally proves my point, Vader choose to turn to the Dark Side.
But I don't think Justafan is disputing that. The argument is not over whether Vader chose the Dark Side or not (we all know he did), but whether that was the only way to defeat the Emperor.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not hiding behind anything, I have no "personnel" thoughts on how Anakin is the chosen one and how he brings balance to the Force, and you know why? It because those question have been answered already, there is no more debate.[/b][/quote]

You're right that we know how the prophecy was fulfilled (Anakin destroying the Emperor), but could that have been accomplished another way? Could Anakin have still done that if he hadn't turned to the Dark Side. That might be the "easy path" according to Yoda, but it also might have been the only way to get in position to defeat Sidious.

[Darth Barrister]

As far as we know, Anakin's prophesized destiny, as the chosen one, was to bring balance to the force.

However, when brought before the Jedi Council, Anakin's future was "clouded" according to Yoda.

Also, Yoda states generally that that the dark side "clouds" everything.

We can therefore infer that Anakin's future was clouded because of the dark side.
(and, as we know, Anakin becomes Vader).

As a side note:
In a sense, Yoda's inability to see Anakin's future was because of the true nature of Anakin's future. So in a weird way, Yoda did see his future from a certain point of view.

We can also infer that Yoda's ability to sense Anakin's future was limited by the dark side.

(i.e. Yoda's inability to see Anakin's future was because there was the dark side "cloud" over Anakin's future). Also based on the true dark future of Anakin.

I do not believe that Anakin's basic life choices were pre-destined (becoming a Jedi, marrying Padme, turning to the dark side, etc.)

The only true fact about his future was that his bringing of balance to the force was inevitable.

The means as to how he would do it would be up to him (and his decisions).


Therefore, It was not necessary for Anakin to turn to the dark side to bring balance to the force. Instead his individual choices took him along a dark path to fulfill his destiny.

Also, I do believe that the prophecy was never fully understood by the Jedi. (maybe a discussion for another thread).

Anakin's turn to the dark side was not necessary for his ultimate accomplishment of destroying Palpatine, but his choices led him down the dark path he ultimately took.


I hope this makes sense!

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Darth Barrister@Oct 14 2002, 06:53 PM
The only true fact about his future was that his bringing of balance to the force was inevitable.

The means as to how he would do it would be up to him (and his decisions).
That could be. I'm just having trouble envisioning how he could have done it another other way given his character traits. I'm not saying his choices were pre-destined, but just that I don't see how else he could have gotten to Sidious once the Empire was formed.

With the Jedi purge in progress, he couldn't just waltz up to the Emperor. If he surrendered as Luke did in ROTJ, he'd likely just be killed, especially since he would have spurned Sidious' previous attempt to turn him. If he wasn't killed, and was brought before the Emperor, he'd likely also be facing another Sith, whoever Sidious had made his apprentice. I'm not sure I see him winning in those circumstances, especially if the Emperor spoke to him in the same manner he did Luke in ROTJ. Anakin would lose his cool for sure. In fact, there's a chance this kind of scenario will play out in epIII, with Anakin not being as strong as Luke was.

[justafan]

Well, we're back to discussing what Anakin's future was, and whether he was in control of it, or if destiny provided the directions.

Do we want to continue this discussion here, or start another thread, or is there an existing thread for that (I haven't read every thread here, so I rely on your experience.)

I think I can argue the following, using plain logic:

1). If the future was clouded, anyone's future, by the Dark side, then it was for one of two reasons: either it was hidden to allow it to unfold as destined, or it was not set ("always in motion the future is").

2). If it was hidden to allow it to unfold as destined, then everyone's life, actions, thoughts, mistakes, choices, were the ones that were ordained, and needed to happen to get us to the end product (my argument).

3). If it was hidden because it was in motion, then there was no promise that Anakin was the Chosen one, because he could simply choose not to do what he needed to do to be the Chosen one (Seems to be everyone else's argument).

Each argument relates directly to what Yoda knows. Either he knows the basic flow of what was to come, or he was going in blind and hoping for the best.

I think that GL has created a situation where the two have mixed, as demonstrated by actions, quotes, and conversations in the movies, both trilogies. That makes it difficult for us to discuss since each argument is tainted with traits of the other argument.

Agent Bond appears to be the most vocal proponent of the free will/choice camp. I, on the otherhand, suggest that destiny controls all actions. Both arguments are strong and have been supported by others, as well as support taken right from the movies (and other stuff by Agent Bond style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif ). While polar, they both hold merit, and could be the topic of endless debate. In the end, I think what Yoda knows will hinge on which philosphy GL adopts for E3.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by borgmatrix+Oct 14 2002, 09:46 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(borgmatrix @ Oct 14 2002, 09:46 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 14 2002, 05:12 PM
That line totally proves my point, Vader choose to turn to the Dark Side.
But I don't think Justafan is disputing that. The argument is not over whether Vader chose the Dark Side or not (we all know he did), but whether that was the only way to defeat the Emperor.

[/b][/quote]
Actuallu Borg, that is exactly what Justafan is disputing, he's been saying over and over again that joining the Dark Side was his destiny and he had to do that to defeat the Emporer and bring balance to the Force.

No, because it was clearly stated that Anakin choose the Dark Side, it was his decision.

Was threre any other way to defeat the Emporer?

Yes, I'm sure that if Anakin hadn't been so impatient and waited for just the right moment, he would have been able to do so.

We can be assured of a few things happening in episode 3, the Jedi will discover Palpatine's identity, Anakin will become Palpatine's apprentice, Anakin will take on the name Darth Vader and the purge will begin.

If Anakin had simply decided against joining the Emporer, if he had fought the temptation as Luke did, he would have been able to fulfill his destiny, without ever joining the Sith.

His redemption was not some planned thing, it was not supposed to happen that way. But it did. If you're going to go as far to say that Anakin was destined to fall, and that it was the only way he could get close enough to deystroy the Emporer, than you might as well go the next step and say that was just playing the part until at the last moment in ROTJ when he finally could deytroy the Emporer, and that's far from the truth.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 15 2002, 12:58 PM
If you're going to go as far to say that Anakin was destined to fall, and that it was the only way he could get close enough to deystroy the Emporer, than you might as well go the next step and say that was just playing the part until at the last moment in ROTJ when he finally could deytroy the Emporer, and that's far from the truth.
No, I'm not saying that he joined the Sith with the intent of eventually destroying it, just that it worked out that way. I don't think he knew exactly what being the Chosen One meant. I think he was just living his life, and through doing that, eventually fulfilled the prophecy. I realize that in ROTJ he wasn't thinking "Hah, now's my chance to bring balance to the Force", that all he cared about at that point was saving Luke's life.

[justafan]

I think, then, the question becomes "what purpose is it to be The Chosen One?" Destroying this Sith brings balance, as pointed out by GL, via Agent Bond. But, simply by attrition, the Jedi could have easily slaughtered the Sith (there's only two of them) without any one being having the designation of "Chosen One". There is more meaning to that than simply the one who kills the Sith. Vader killed many more Jedi than Sith. Where would those Jedi be if Vader hadn't killed them? We can speculate very easily that it would be a no contest Jedi against the Sith once we remove Anakin from the equation. There is much more to being the "Chosen One" than throwing Palpy over the edge.

Anakin's journey is the heart of the story. There lies the meaning of "Chosen One". Yoda, Mace, Qui Gon, any of the upper Jedi could have faced Palpy in a Force match up, one on one or en masse. There has to be the "rags to riches", the announcement of fatherhood, the drama, all of it ties in to being the "Chosen One". There is no way that Anakin could have strode up to Palpy with the intent to kill him, and be succesful. Remember, as it has been pointed out, the Dark Side allows viewing the future. Palpy would have known, and would have taken steps to prevent it. That is exactly why he brought Luke into the fray in ROTJ, with the hopes that Luke would destroy Vader. There is no other logical explanation.

And, yes, I am saying that Anakin was destined to fall. That is why there is so much hullaballoo about his turning to the Dark Side. Here we have our saviour, the redeemer of the galaxy, the "Chosen One", and now he is working for the wrong side. What are we ever to do? Without that scenario, there can be no great redemption in the end, which is where the balance comes from, and the prophesy is fullfilled.

Anakin was not playing the part, Palpy would again have seen through that ploy, and I don't think Anakin was wise or smart enough to think through the entire Jedi slaughter, the basic enslavement of the universe to the Empire, etc, just so he could bide his time till somehow he would be able to defeat Palpy. BorgMatrix hit the nail on the head in his last post, that Anakin was just living his life, and eventually destiny led him to destroy the Emperor, save his son's life, and redeem himself.

Anakin was not strong enough at any point in his life to defeat the Emperor. He was only strong enough as Vader when he realized his son's life was in danger. Up until that point, he had no desire, no reason, nor the ability to face Palpy one on one, otherwise he would have done it. Anakin wasn't impatient in his waiting to defeat Palpy, he had no inclination that he was supposed to do that. And, what would have been his reason? Without the fall to Vader, Anakin wouldn't have hunted the Jedi, and the Jedi would still be alive. At that point, what purpose to take on the crusade to kill Palpy? The only logical way is the way in which we see unfold in the movies, that Anakin is the Chosen One, we don't really know what that means except he is to bring balance to the Force, he falls, defeats the remaining Jedi, and eventually defeats Palpy when the time is right, once he has redeemed himself, and can join his son in a triumphant "homecoming".

There is no other way.

[Darth Vegas]

Yeah there is, he could just not turned, and not have taken the quick and easy path, and became a full Jedi which he will not.

Realize that Anakin killed the Emporer, not his alter ego Darth Vader.

That same man Anakincould have done so without ever turning if he had become a full Jedi.

If he had done that, the Jedi purge most likely would not have been successful, and the Empire wouldn't have lasted too long.

Palpatine's true power is his apprentice, the most powerful Force user the galaxy has ever known. Without him at his side he doesn't stand a chance, and he know's it.

So hypothetically, if Anakin had finished his training and faced the Jedi Trials, he could have become a Jedi Knight, and he would've fulfilled his destiny without hindering it by joining the Sith, rather than deystroying them.

But it worked out anyway, though it did not have to happen that way.

[conron_montyn23]

anakin gave balance to the force, because he killed palpy in ROTJ, therefore, destroying the sith, and the empire.

about the topic...
yoda knows alot, thats why GL got his name from the hebrew word Yoda'e which means knowlege! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif



me mum and dad should have named me yoda, im
all-knowing style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Oct 15 2002, 04:28 PM
There is more meaning to that than simply the one who kills the Sith.
A prophecy usually involves a specific event, right? I mean, it's not a rule in general that applies to all events and times. This particular prophecy involved the events we're seeing: Rise of the Sith/Empire and Destruction of the Jedi (described as the imbalance in the prophecy). And the Chosen One is the one that ends the Empire (described as bringing balance to the Force in the prophecy).

So it's not describing anytime a Sith is killed, it's describing the specific events that we're seeing unfolding in the these movies. At least that's the way I understand it.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 15 2002, 09:46 PM
If he had done that, the Jedi purge most likely would not have been successful, and the Empire wouldn't have lasted too long.
I don't think that would have been the case at all. Palpatine was a great evil that was destined to dominate the galaxy. If Anakin hadn't turned, he'd likely have died with most of the others in the purge and the Sith rule would have lasted well past ROTJ with another apprentice in place that would never have the good within him to end the Sith.

To say that the Empire wouldn't have lasted long if Anakin hadn't turned completely undermines the evil that Palpatine represents. With or without Vader, he would have created the Empire. That's the imbalance that was prophecized (sp?). That's why Anakin's fall was so key. He survived the purge, giving him the opportunity in the future to return to the side of good and fulfill the rest of the prophecy.

[Darth Vegas]

No way, if Anakin hadn't turned, I do not believe Palpatine would have been able to take over the galaxy, he was just as vital to his reign as was the Death Star.

I don't think the Empire could have been created without Vader, and I do not believe that Palpatine would have tried to do away with the Jedi without the most powerful Force user in the galaxy at his side.

No Vader = no Empire, and no Jedi purge.

It is clear that Palpatine knows that he needs him, and thus is trying to turn him. I'm sure he understands the power he possesess even more than the Jedi do, and he intends to use it or his own good.

In a way, Palpatine is perposefully keeping Anakin from fullfilling his destiny. You all ask the question, How does Anakin turn? Well, many thing, but one of them will defineately be the fact that Palpatine spreads discord, telling lies to both Anakin and Padme, and possibly to the Jedi.

"The ability to deystroy an entire planet is insignificant, next to the power of the Force."

The Death Star may have had that masive power, but it is Vader that will lead the Jedi Purge. It is Vader that will secure Palpatine's reign. Anakin is in essence the child of the Force, he was born of it, and he'll wield it like no other. Vader is the realultimate weapon.

Palpatine thinks that he can cheat the prophesy somehow, by altering destiny. Which he did for a time by turning Anakin. But seeing how Palp was frying his kid Anakin woke up and realized that Palp was the guy behind his problems all along, he probably thought of his mother, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, his beloved Padme, and therein fromt of him was his chance to redeem himself for his past mistakes.

When Anakin killed Palpatine, I do not believe he was concerened with the prophesy at all, at that point his mind was on other things, his past life, and the people that he was closest to.

It's amazing how his attachments, which lead him to his fall, in the end helped him fulfill his destiny.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 16 2002, 07:19 AM
It is clear that Palpatine knows that he needs him, and thus is trying to turn him.
Palpatine had begun his rise to power well before he even knew who Anakin was. Anakin was not vital to his gaining power. Maul or Dooku could have easily led a purge.

The imbalance caused by Palpatine's rise to power was part of the prophecy, so it would have occured with or without Vader. Anakin's importance was in restoring the balance not in causing it.

[conron_montyn23]

um... r we off subject, or am i just an idiot? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

cant seem to figure that out... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Anakin woke up and realized that Palp was the guy behind his problems all along, he probably thought of his mother, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, his beloved Padme, and therein fromt of him was his chance to redeem himself for his past mistakes[/b][/quote]

That's the entire point of the prophesy!

You state that Anakin could have done things without turning, and I continue to challange you to demonstrate that, and you don't. That's because it couldn't have happened any other way. The only way balance could have been brought was for evil to rise, become as powerful as it did, and then be destroyed from within, which you demonstrated in your explanation. Look at my post regarding the reasons for the Purge, the reasons for killing Palpy, et al. Discount those reasons if you can, I don't think you will be able to.

To bring all this back to topic, Yoda is aware that the future, however clouded he may be, and the prophecy, whatever he understands it to be, rabout it, requires some traumatic and dramatic alterations to what he knows at the status quo. He fears for the unknown--but at the same time knows that destiny is destiny, and that things will play out as they are supposed to play out. His faith in the Force, while strongest that we know of, still cringes at the fact that wild events beyond imagination and control will grip the universe and shake it up. He knows Anakin plays an integral part to this, and fears (naturally) that his (Yoda's) plans for Anakin (remaining good and somehow fulfulling the prophecy) may not be the path that destiny has chosen. There lies the uncertainty that Yoda has, that Obi Wan has, and that Yoda sees unfolding as it should in ESB.

I do agree that Vader was pivitol in the powerful grip Paply had on the universe. And that Palpy wouldn't have tried to eliminate the Jedi IN THE MANNER IN WHICH HE DID without Anakin. I am willing to bet, however, that we will see Palpy attempt to discredit the Jedi, attempt to politically eliminate the Jedi council, and do everything he can to remove them from the equation PRIOR to Vader being called to destroy them. Palpy resorts to the purge as a last tactic. Remember, he does get surprised when his plans don't go the way he wants them to (he advises the Trade Federation of the unexpected move on Padme's part while queen, remember?).

But let's continue to resolve what Yoda knows at this point, and worry about how Palpy does what he does at some other time, and in another thread. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>So it's not describing anytime a Sith is killed, it's describing the specific events that we're seeing unfolding in the these movies. At least that's the way I understand it. [/b][/quote]

Exactly.

(See, Agent Bond, it's not that hard to see the truth! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif )

[Darth Vegas]

Yoda has no clue whatsoever about Anakin's future.

[justafan]

Then what is the issue with the Prophecy? If there is no knowledge of what is to happen, then why the big deal about him being the Chosen One?

With prohpecy, any prophecy, there always comes set, direction, and outcome. Look at any prophecy you can think of. We can use Biblical prophecy. Virtually everything that was/is to come was spelled out exactly as it was to happen. There were no real surprises, if you look at what was said vs. what actually happened.

The same can be said in SW. The prophecy is not simply "There will come a Chosen One who will bring balance to the Force". There has to be the set up as to where the imbalance came from, what happens, and how it is resolved, otherwise the prohpecy isn't a prophecy, only a guess.

Now, I am not pretending to know exactly how the prophecy is worded, what documents, folklore, etc, surround the prohecy, or what train of thought the Jedi followed when keeping an eye out for this Chosen one. I am stating that Yoda knew what the Chosen one was to accomplish, and in a basic manner how that was to occur, and that we were all in for a rough ride.

There is knowledge as to what is to come, otherwise the actions Yoda takes would have no meaning.

[Jedi_Mongoose]

Well if we use justafan theory of prophecy which I think is pretty close. Why does the Jedi Council act so amazed about a sith. The prophecy of the chosen one who brings balance to the force.. Means there is unbalance so there must be a sith out there..is that a loop hole

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Jedi_Mongoose@Oct 17 2002, 06:42 PM
Means there is unbalance so there must be a sith out there..is that a loop hole
At the time of TPM, the imbalance hadn't been caused yet. The Sith hadn't been seen in, what, a thousand years? That was the cause of their surprise.

[conron_montyn23]

in ep 1 and 2 , the JeCo knew something was going on, it started with the Maul stuff, and they knew there was another sith.
Yoda knows something is up with palpy in ep2. He's not sure what, but he is suspicious.


so anakin turned to the dark side after dooku dies.
vader is palpy's only hope in the take-over of the galaxy.
since anie kills palpy in ROTJ, that means he has brought balance to the force, by killing the only remaining sith.


Soo i wouldnt consider anything else. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[justafan]

Well well well, here we are again.

I was watching the movie, again, after already watching it for the enjoyment of it. I was watching it with an eye for our discussions, and one thing stuck out to me.

Yoda said, and I will try to quote:

"No, only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows our weakness".

So, that statement tells me some things....

1) Yoda now knows that Maul was the apprentice, and that there is a master out there.

2) Yoda knows that the Master Sith is either among or near or interacting with the Jedi.

3) The Sith knows how the strength level has changed (ie, what it was before, and what it is now).

Also worthy of note, Dooku refers to "the Dark Lord of the Sith" as being in charge of the Senate.

And, Yoda announces that Dooku has fallen (before he faces Dooku). So, Yoda is aware of what exactly happened with Dooku.

So, at this point, would anyone like to revisit our prior discussions on what Yoda knows?

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 18 2002, 05:34 PM
Yoda said, and I will try to quote:

"No, only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows our weakness
Both master and apprentice would be a "Dark Lord of the Sith." For instance, both Tyrannus and Vader have been called "Lord."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>1) Yoda now knows that Maul was the apprentice, and that there is a master out there[/b][/quote]
Yoda knows that one of them is out there, but doesn't know whether it's the Master or the apprentice. Mace has dialogue to that extent at the end of TPM. Again, all Sith are "Dark Lords".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>2) Yoda knows that the Master Sith is either among or near or interacting with the Jedi.
[/b][/quote]
Yeah, I agree. From what's said at the end of AOTC, Yoda and Mace do intend to keep a closer eye on the Senate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And, Yoda announces that Dooku has fallen (before he faces Dooku). So, Yoda is aware of what exactly happened with Dooku.
[/b][/quote]
Yoda says "the Dark Side I sense in you." That doesn't necessarily mean that he's aware of a connection between Dooku and the Sith, just that he senses Dooku's following the dark path. It's obviously too big of a coincidence for Yoda not to suspect Dooku's involved somehow, but I don't think he knows exactly how.

[justafan]

In order for Yoda to have said that any Dark Lord knew anything was to be familiar with the Dark Lord. Otherwise, how would Yoda know that the Dark Lord knew, etc. We're encroaching on the old argument as to Yoda's knowing more than he is given credit for....

Let's look at this logically. Dooku says he is against the Sith, and wants Obi Wan's help to do it. Yoda says he senses the Dark side in Dooku. Yoda also says that lies and treachary are the ways of the Dark Side. IF that is the case, then what Dooku says to Obi is a lie. That doens't mean that he means the opposite, but it definately means he is not -not- against the Sith.

So, we have some of the wisest Jedis unable to figure this out? I don't think so.

[Darth Vegas]

Yoda made it clear that they couldn't trust Dooku anymore, but he has no idea that he is nvolved with the Sith, or what Sith was killed in TPM.

It is made clear in both films that the Jedi really do not know.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 19 2002, 02:44 PM
In order for Yoda to have said that any Dark Lord knew anything was to be familiar with the Dark Lord. Otherwise, how would Yoda know that the Dark Lord knew, etc.
Yoda can infer things. He can make educated guesses. But he's not going to know exactly what's happening, because his ability to use the Force is diminished. Unless the Dark Lords come up to him and detail their plans, Yoda won't truly know anything.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Yoda also says that lies and treachary are the ways of the Dark Side. IF that is the case, then what Dooku says to Obi is a lie. That doens't mean that he means the opposite, but it definately means he is not -not- against the Sith.[/b][/quote]
Lies and treachary might be ways of the Dark Side, but that doesn't mean every word out of Dooku's mouth is a lie. From the Jedi's point of view, maybe Dooku's a Sith, maybe he's not. They can't know for sure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>So, we have some of the wisest Jedis unable to figure this out? I don't think so.[/b][/quote]
I'm not suggesting they can't speculate or piece together certain aspects, just that they can't know exactly what's going on. If they knew exactly what the Sith's gameplan was, there'd be no conflict.

[jedisaber]

hey, ive got a question, when anikan kills the tuskens and yoda hears qui-gonn, it sounds like qui-gonn says "anikan,anikan" but then when someone says "Nooooo!" it sounds more like yoda, than qui-gonn, or maybe it was a tusken sand person

[Jedi D'oh]

My personal feeling here is that Yoda knows almost everything. There are so many subtle scenes with his face that you can tell there is some knowledge there.

My theory is that Yoda knows about what is going on. He also knows that soon the crap will hit the fan and nothing can be done to stop it. I doubt he knows EXACTLY how it going down, but I think he realises that the Jedi are on their way out and he is going to have to deal with the fates as they are until A New Hope comes along.

[justafan]

Perhaps I'm being too zealous here, but, hey, why not. I see in the movies, all of them, that Yoda knows much more than he lets on--example--when he mentions "there is another" on Dagobah. He didn't just have an epiphany with that knowledge, he knew it all along, and simply didn't say anything. Would making that knowledge public at an earlier time perhaps helped things out--maybe have two jedi training at the same time? Certainly it would.

This is a pattern of Yoda's. The argument that he simply is floating along blindly accepting that things are happening around him he was completely unaware of is ridiculous. I have always argued that he doesn't know specifics, but he does know a general idea of what is happening, who people are, who the Sith are, what is going to happen to Anakin, etc.

Let's remove our omnicience from watching the movies, and place ourselves in Yoda's place. Even with my limited intellegence, given the past and present that Yoda knows (that we know he knows), I can put two and two together and figure out what's going on.

Also, Mace readily refers to Anakin as the Chosen One, so if they have accepted that he is that person, they have to understand what that means. IF that is the case, they must (as I have argued before) know what the prophecy says about the Chosen one.

They know.

They know.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 19 2002, 06:38 PM
Let's remove our omnicience from watching the movies, and place ourselves in Yoda's place. Even with my limited intellegence, given the past and present that Yoda knows (that we know he knows), I can put two and two together and figure out what's going on.
If Yoda knows everything, then what's the point? I don't see how anything we're seeing in these prequels can be satisying with Yoda knowing it all. Is he just putting on a big act then? Why? Why wouldn't he act on his knowledge? Don't tell me it's because of destiny. People don't go through life second-guessing every move or deciding they're going to act in one way or another because of destiny. People just live their lives and whatever's destined happens. If Yoda has knowledge of Sith plans, he'll act on it.

When Obi-wan contacts Yoda and Mace about Jango, Yoda orders Kenobi to bring him in. If Yoda knows everything, why would he bother? If he's going to let it all happen because it's preordained, why would he want Jango questioned?

Why does Yoda disagree with Mace about informing the Senate of their weakness? If Yoda knows the Jedi are supposed to be almost entired wiped out and balance eventually restored by Anakin, why would he care if their enemies multiply? It shouldn't make a difference.

Why was he so adamant about capturing/stopping Dooku in order to prevent more systems from rallying to his cause? If Dooku's stopped and the Separatist movement halted, there'll be no war and the Sith plans will falter. If Yoda knows all this is supposed to happen, why try to stop Dooku?

None of this adds up to me. I don't think it makes any sense.

[Master Cephus]

I think you missed on what justafan was saying. Yoda doesn't know exactly what is happening...but he knows generally what is going to happen. He doesn't know how. But being the super wise person he is he doesn't tell anyone because there is nothing to tell. It's like our government with terrorists...."Something bad is going to happen...we don't know when and we don't know how"... I mean why say it if you don't know details... That is the way Yoda is I feel. Yoda knows that the Jedi are falling apart but why? how? he knows not that...

Just My .02 Cents (beau@hiwaay.net)

[justafan]

Thank you, Master Cephus, that is exactly what I am saying.

Let's go out on a limb, here. Imagine that Yoda is more than a Jedi Master. Imagine he IS the Jedi MASTER, and is keeper of all the secrets, magic, Force, whatever you want to say. If we imagine that, then Yoda is omnicient, and knows exactly what things need to happen and how things need to play out. I'm not saying that he is, by any means, but if we imagine we can get there.

To use a biblical allegory. Folks have argued, forever, as to why God created man when he had the knowledge that he would have to sacrifice his son to save mankind (let's set aside the religious tones and use this example strictly as a supreme being example). What is the point? Why would Jesus then go right along with what was happening when he knew the suffering he was going to go through? Who knows the real answer, but the point is this--things HAD to happen the way they did, regardless of his knowledge. He spoke of what happened in the past, what was happening, and what was going to happen, in riddles or in circles, much like Yoda does. By speaking of things, or not, didn't change what was to happen or not happen.

The same is with Yoda. Whether or not he says something, or talks about it in detail or not, is really not the point. The point is that given what we know about Yoda we can safely believe, not assume, but believe, that he knows at least as much as we know.

I can't believe anything else.

[Darth Vegas]

If Yoda knew anything of the Future, which he doesn't because it is made clear in AOTC that the Dark SIde has completely clouded the Future from the Jedi, the Jedi would've long since left the Republic.

[MegoHulk]

Well whos to say he doesn't know what MIGHT happen...so he tries hard to stop these events from happening. It's like a car accident...you can see them coming sometimes and no matter how hard you stomp the brakes you still hit that car. this is what I think Yoda is doing....he has a vague idea of whats going to happen and he's stomping the brakes as hard as he can. It certainly doesn't help that the Sith are clouding things either.

[Darth Vegas]

"Blind we are if creation of this clone army we could not see."

"The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision my friend, hundreds of Senators are now under the control of the Dark Lord of the Sith."

"The Dark Side clouds everything, impossible to see the Future is."

Need I say more?

[justafan]

I think the biggest problem this group is having is POV. Look at everything in the paradigm of what is best for the invierse long term, rather than what you thinkg should be done.

Now, given what we know is the outcome, and looking at everything in the new paradigm, you can plainly see that whether or not Yoda says anything, he knows very much.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 20 2002, 03:14 PM
Thank you, Master Cephus, that is exactly what I am saying.
Is it? Because then you say:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The point is that given what we know about Yoda we can safely believe, not assume, but believe, that he knows at least as much as we know.
[/b][/quote]

And we know everything. We know Sidious is behind the Separatists as well as the Republic. We know Dooku is Tyrannus and works for Sidious. We know Sidious will become Emperor with the Jedi being wiped out.

How is it Yoda knows all this? And if he does know what we know, the questions I asked in my previous post are valid. Yoda's actions and words aren't consistent with someone who knows everything we do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I think the biggest problem this group is having is POV. Look at everything in the paradigm of what is best for the invierse long term, rather than what you thinkg should be done.
[/b][/quote]

That's fine for us, because we're not of the SW universe. But Yoda cannot step outside the universe. He's not God. Things might be happening that are meant to happen, but Yoda doesn't know exactly what should happen. He's going to try to uncover the Sith plan just like everyone else. If he has knowledge, he'll act on it. Then, whatever happens, happens.

The big question I have is: Why do you think Yoda knows everything we know? How's that possible?

[Master Cephus]

Bond you are correct in like justafan said in POV. Yoda knows what is going to happen, but he doesn't know how it is going to happen. The darkside clouded the vision that allows him to see the details. So I think he knows what is going to happen, but he didn't know about the clone army (the details on how it's going to happen). Do you understand what we are saying??? Things taken too literally is like seeing only 5 feet in front of you, if you don't look past the obvious, you don't see the star destroyer 3 parsacs away style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Darth Vegas]

No, Yoda knows precisely d!ck. None of the Jedi can see the future, no one knows anything about what's going to happen.

The Jedi may have their thoughts about the outcome of the Clone War, the Chosen One, etc. etc. But they have no clue about anything that is going to happen, they're clueless, otherwise they would already have taken action.

[Jedi D'oh]

No. Master Cephus and justafan are right. It does not have to with the literal sense that Bond and borgmatrix are putting on it.

Bond, the post you put with the quotes a couple back, just helps to improve what we are saying. Yes, the Dark Side is cloudin everything. That is why they do not know what EXACTLY is going to happen. Remember, these guys are Jedi. They are sensative to he Force and can feel things are not right. If the Dark Side was NOT clouding everything, they could take care of business. But that sure would make these movies pointless if they could tell what was to happen and stopped it.

As it is, they are having a hard time seeing the future and discerning what is to be. Yoda, being one of the most powerful, is more sensative to this strange thing befalling the Rebuplic, but just can't put his finger on the trouble.

Borgmatrix, your post 3 above this one tells a certain point. The sentence:Things might be happening that are meant to happen, but Yoda doesn't know exactly what should happen. is the point I am trying to make. Think about it.

[Master Cephus]

but what action to take if they do not know exactly is to happen. Like my analagy about our government we know some terrorist attack is inevitable. but when? how? where? We can't do anything of action because we haven't a clue as to how it's going to happen. BUT when we do know we take action.

Another analogy is like in programming. You are given someone else's code to look at. All the variables are X,Y, and Z. No documentation (details). BUT you do know the outcome of the program...so what do you do? you go through it line by line--not knowing how it works but you know it is going to work...

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Jedi D'oh@Nov 20 2002, 04:29 PM
Borgmatrix, your post 3 above this one tells a certain point. The sentence:Things might be happening that are meant to happen, but Yoda doesn't know exactly what should happen. is the point I am trying to make. Think about it.
From everything I've read in this thread, I thought Justafan was saying Yoda knew more.

For the sake of clarity, let me ask this to Justafan and the rest of you:

1.) Does Yoda know Palpatine is a Dark Lord of the Sith?

2.) Does Yoda know Palpatine will bring about the destruction of the Jedi?

[Darth Barrister]

My opinion

(1) I think Yoda suspects something is not right with Palps. I don't think he knows that he is the Sith Lord.

(2) No, that future is clouded. If he knew he would have taken more precautionary measures.

[Master Cephus]

Right, I think Yoda knows something is up, that a sith is in the midst...and also that Palpy is not right in the world... I don't think he has put 2 and 2 together...

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Master Cephus@Nov 21 2002, 12:17 AM
Right, I think Yoda knows something is up, that a sith is in the midst...and also that Palpy is not right in the world... I don't think he has put 2 and 2 together...
Ok, that makes sense to me, guys. That's what my opinion is. Maybe I'm misreading things, but I thought Justafan was saying Yoda does know what's in store for the Jedi and that Palpatine (and Dooku) are Sith. For instance, this is from one of the posts above:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I have always argued that he doesn't know specifics, but he does know a general idea of what is happening, who people are, who the Sith are, what is going to happen to Anakin, etc.
[/b][/quote]

That's what I disagree with. I don't see Yoda knowing who the Sith are, for example. If he knew that, he'd act on it, wouldn't he?

[Master Cephus]

I would have to believe that if he knew that he would. When Padme in the beginning is not killed he tells her "warm feelings it brings me that you are safe" or something. So he does care for people. So to know exactly what is going to happen and who does it is to let the people you care for parish.

[Jedi D'oh]

What I think was meant by the saying "knows who the sith are" is only using the term SITH like JEDI. Yoda knows of the Sith, but not these INDIVIDUAL Sith.

That look he throws Palpidious in his office when Padme walks in is great. It leads me to believe he suspects Palpidious of SOMETHING, but hard to tell what just yet.

Obi's line at the end about Sidious controlling the senate "not feeling right" leads me to conclude that Palpidious is hiding/masking his presence and making it hard for the Jedi to read.

[justafan]

Sorry, a little late in the fray....

I don't have an insider to tell me, or the vast SW Universe compendium to review, but I believe that Yoda, being 800 years old or so, has been around the block a time or two. Also, with his being the greatest Jedi known, he has great knowledge, and great wisdom. The Force is his ally (how the heck do you spell ally?). Common sense tells me that he is familiar with the prophecy, knows what is to come, and, knows the players involved. The thought that he is simply just a jedi who uses the Force when he sees fit is just not believable.

His wisdom is based on his vast knowledge. We know that the Jedi have an incredible library, and I would think that Yoda has spent a lot of time there in his 800 years. I also believe that the Prophecy is central to the life of a Jedi. Maybe not the lay person, but, yes, of the Jedi. So Yoda would be familiar with all the writings regarding the Prophecy, whether their religious cannon or written from an outsider looking in.

Yoda uses the Force to sense the future and has been successful in the past (otherwise, why does he make the point of saying that now the future is clouded?). And he uses it to sense "stuff" about other people. Yet we hear nothing, not a single thing, about what he saw, sees, senses, or feels about Paply. Doen't that strike anyone else as interesting?

The Dark side clouds the future, I agree. But it doesn't stop former Jedi, now dead, to come back. Qui Gon was able to communicate to Yoda (or, at least Yoda was able to hear him). Is it so hard to believe, then, that the Force allows one to sense what is going on now? Luke was able to on Dagobah, so I don't see a leap of faith here. Yoda should be able to sense the Dark side permiating the senate, and realize that it is comming from somewhere, and from someone.

So these lead me to my points. Yes, I do believe that Yoda knows the truth about Palpy and the Senate. Yes, I believe that yoda knew about an upcomming war. Yes, I believe that yoda knew about young Ani on Tatooine. Yes, I believe that Yoda knows the Jedi will be destroyed, and that the way of the Jedi will be no more. Yes, I believe that Yoda knows that Anakin will fall to the Dark Side. And, yes, I believe that Yoda knows that Anakin will return.

I say these with a grain of salt. Yoda knows, but tempers his knowledge with hesitation and disbelief. Much like most devout Christians do (no disrespect, please!). The Bible tells them the way to live their lives, what is going to happen, the signs along the way, and the way of redemption. But most simply hide or refuse to show/discuss the "bad stuff". Yoda is the same. He's only human (in a manner of speaking). It is simply too terrible to believe for him that his worst fears are comming true.

[Jedi D'oh]

They, at least Yoda, are aware of the dark side in the senate. That's why he tells Mace that telling the senate about their problem with the force would escalate the number of enemies and allow the Dark Lord to know the time is at hand as he wishes it.

The only thing about it is, they can't quite pin down the feeling of who, what, where, when, how. I beleive they know why.

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>and allow the Dark Lord to know the time is at hand as he wishes it.
[/b][/quote]

So, if the Dark Lord is aware of what is to happen (by knowing the time is at hand), there must be some discussion somewhere as to what the time at hand means and is for. If the Dark Lord knows, Yoda knows. We can't allow rules to apply to one persona and not another.

[Darth Vegas]

I am not going to say this again, the Dark Side of the Force has cloude the future completely from the Jedi, they have cmpletely lost their ability to forsee, and only those who have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future.

Yoda my have a feeling that more bad times are ahead, but he has no specifics, because he cannot see what's coming, no one but the Sith can.

[Jedi D'oh]

THAT"S WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO SAY!!!!!!

The ability to figure it out is gone. Yoda knows, because that ability is gone, that the prophecy is coming true. The only thing we don't know is what EXACTLY the prophecy says. Yoda may have some insight he has kept to himself and that's why he knows without knowing.

[justafan]

But, Agent Bond, I'm arguing that Yoda just didn't start sensing stuff now to all of a sudden have it become clouded. His senses were all working long before TPM and AOTC. If we are to believe what we have been told, that Yoda has been a Jedi master for quite some time, then everything a Jedi master can do, feel, sense, etc, has been around for wuite some time, too. There has been nothing to contradict that sensing the future was unlimited--ie, you can only see a week ahead, no further. What was to stop Yoda from sensing what would happen a year from then, or 10, or 100?

Your argument is correct, IF LIFE IN STAR WARS BEGAN WITH TPM, but it didn't.

[Jedi D'oh]

The only thing to say on why Yoda didn't sense it was to happen 50-150 years ago harks back to ESB. "Always in motion is the future."

That may be why he gives Palpidious that look. He may have forseen a similar event, but had no idea what it was about until he experienced it.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 21 2002, 08:25 AM
But, Agent Bond, I'm arguing that Yoda just didn't start sensing stuff now to all of a sudden have it become clouded. His senses were all working long before TPM and AOTC. .
Well, the thing is, exactly what he said, the future is always in motion, again, destiny does no decide everything, there is choice. Sidious' scheme had only began in TPM, the Sith had been in hiding from the Jedi for a thousan years, so it may b safe to assume that the Dark Side ha already begun to cloud the Jedi's vision long before TPM

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 21 2002, 04:25 PM
There has been nothing to contradict that sensing the future was unlimited--ie, you can only see a week ahead, no further. What was to stop Yoda from sensing what would happen a year from then, or 10, or 100?
To me, that would make a mess of star wars. If Jedi can see any amount of years into the future, then they would have stopped Palpatine well before he became Senator, and there would never be any major evil acts committed ever. It's not that simple.

I agree with "Always in motion is the future" coming into play here. The farther one looks into the future, the more uncertain it's going to be. To be able to pick out one possible timeline out of millions would be next to impossible, because ever decision by every person affects the future. But in the shortterm, it's easier, because there are fewer variables. I'm not saying it's easy, but it would be much easier than looking well into the future. There's less "motion" to deal with.

Unfortunately for the Jedi, at this point in time darkness has risen, and that's no longer possible. They wouldn't have been able to sense this future in the past because there would have been too many alternate futures to weed through. And now they can't either, because "the dark side clouds everything."

[Jedi D'oh]

Yea cause Yoda couldn't even tell about something days ahead. In ESB when Luke asks if his friends will die, Yoda says the future in motion line. And that stuff was in the immediate future.

[justafan]

I can see your point, Borg and Bond, that looking too far into the future would goof this up. I aquiess that argument, but continue to argue that this skill of "looking ahead" shall we call it, was not something that Yoda just picked up as a hobby.

And I argue that Siduous began his campaign of domination long before TPM. There is no reason to believe that Siduous did not have everything in place waiting for the right time.

Have to go, will finish discussion later.

I've enjoyed our interludes on this topic style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif

[Jedi D'oh]

I agree with that. Plans were not set into motion at the beginning of TPM. You can see that if you've read any of the books from the prequel era. Those of you who don't are missing the bigger picture, in my opinion.

[justafan]

Ok, here we go, in detail.

I am saying, exactly, that Yoda knows what the future holds. He knows this from years of sensing the future, meditating, reading info on the prophecy, etc. The exact details he may be assuming, from reading and not sensing, but I believe he has the same sort of knowledge of whats to come as humans do based on christianity (the torrah, bible, revelation, etc). My long winded argument and discussion above supports this, as well as common sense.

I am saying that because of this general knowledge with basic premises of death and destruction of the Jedi, and the fall of the universe, Yoda didn't share this information. Maybe it was because he felt he might be wrong. Maybe he felt he just couldn't let the Jedi know that all they were fighting for was for naught. Maybe the prophecy told him not to. Who knows. I argue, and will continue to argue, that he knew but simply didn't say anything. I hate to keep going back to the church for examples, but the church hid much of the bible from the public for thousands of years. Why do you think mass was given in Latin when most folks could barely say their own name in their native tongue? Because the truth is out there, doesn't mean that everyone knows it.

With all of this, I think it is safe to say that Yoda knew exactly what was going to happen to Anakin. I've said it before and I'll say it again now--with every prophesy that has to be story, set, and outcome. Yoda was privy to all that information. He knew what was to happen.

Just because the Dark side clouds the future at this point, doesn't mean that things are in the dark (so to speak) when it comes to what is happening. No one mentions anything about memory being clouded. When asked, Yoda only refers to his ability to sense the future--never to his ability to recall what he already knows. I agree that he probably wasn't able to sense the future a great deal into the future, but would be able to sense a little. Who knows, maybe he was even able to notice a decline in his abilities.

*

We also need to consider common sense. We have focused on the Force, and have failed to use our own eyes. We, as humans, can see "between the lines" and know when a government (ours or anyone elses) is covering something up, or is setting up a coo, or what have you. Why is it so difficult to believe that Yoda (or anyone for that matter, except maybe Jar Jar) could figure out what is happening with Palp? The common theme in this thread/argument has been that the movies, scripts, deleted, etc, have to be taken at face value, and that no other considerations can be given, and I say that is hogwash. We have to give the characters credit for living a real life (in the movies) and that they have at least as much sense as we do.

*

So there's my argument about what Yoda knows. I welcome rubuttles (is that how you spell it?).

[Lord Laviathan]

I Believe that Yoda is distrusting of Palpatine yet since his thoughts are clouded he can make no accusations or provide tangible proof. I do believe he can still sense a little of whats on the horizon but the darkside is clouding and could be decieving. He is just awaiting the dark lord to show himself till he can fully react, atleast in my opinion.

[Jedi_Mongoose]

I belive yoda knows a little about the prochecy but not the exact details. Like someone is coming to bring balance to the force.. but how its done I dont think he has a clue.. And that the darkside clouds his visions.

[Jedi D'oh]

Prophecies are never straight forward telling of what is to be. They are usually spoken in riddle. If Yoda knows about the prophecy, he only knows what he has interpreted. He trusts he is as right as he can be, but until the game is played out, he cannot be sure what events will fall when.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 25 2002, 07:18 PM
Why is it so difficult to believe that Yoda (or anyone for that matter, except maybe Jar Jar) could figure out what is happening with Palp?
Because what is happening is pretty outrageous.

Last year, after 9-11, what if someone were to say that President Bush was the mastermind behind the Al-Queda attacks? That the President was controlling both the US and the Taliban/Al-Queda, so as to orchestrate a war that he could take advantage of to make himself Emperor and turn the world into a dictatorship. And we can toss in a prophecy too, since Nostradamus supposedly predicted that attack. Wouldn't you agree that's not believable at all? It's utterly crazy. The most intelligent people in the world wouldn't believe that for a minute.

And that's the kind of scenario that's unfolding in the prequels. Yeah, Yoda's not an idiot. It's clear the he and the other Jedi know somethings brewing, and that it's bad. But they don't know how bad. The idea of Palpatine controlling both sides in order to create an Empire is so farfetched, they won't be considering it until it's already happened. The information they have isn't enough to put together and solve the entire puzzle.

[justafan]

Borg, you think that it may be far fetched, but lets look at it this way: Jedi knights are like, shall we say, Ninjas. They live their entire life for one purpose--to use the Force to uphold goodness and justice. They aren't above using physical force to obtain those goals. They are realists, not pacifists. So, if the good guys aren't above imposing their will (who is to say that their sense of right and wrong/justice is right for all species in the universe?), why would the bad guys be above it? They aren't, either. Now we have the situation where although unspoken, it is obvious and expected that the bad guys will do some dastardly deed. And, what is the main goal of all bad guys? To be in charge, so their way is the queen's way, to paraphrase Carol. Its one the basic tennants of sociological theories, that people strive to be in charge, and that those in charge do everything in their power to stay in charge. At what cost? Does it matter to the person in charge? Doubt it.

Now, let's assume that the prophecy is simply what we have heard in the movies, that the Chosen One will come and bring balance to the Force. Ok. Now enter Anakin. His future is clouded, per Yoda. So that means that now they have someone who they think is this Chosen One (that they know nothing or can sense anything about) who will somehow bring balance to the Force, when, at that time, there really is no unbalance to speak of. In modern terms, we have one unknown to try and fit into the equation of another unknown. If we have a chosen one to bring balance, and currently have balance, then we will soon have unbalance. Why not eliminate the chosen one, and maintain the balance that we currently have? If we accept that the Jedi impose their will for the "greater good", why wouldn't they do it in this scenario?

I'll tell you why. Because Yoda knows that in the end, things will be better than what they are now, and that the only way to get there is to let happen what we (the movie goers) know will happen (the OT). The POV that had the truth be known then the Jedi would have stopped Palpy only works if the status quo is the highest attainable balance. It isn't. The Jedi have seen the Universe develop for thousands of years, and Yoda has seen 800 of it. He knows that the lifetime of Man is but a short period of unrest. He knows that, in the long run, the Jedi, as we see in TPM and AOTC, are losing their strength, have lost their impact, and are approaching their roles in a skewed and improper way. We see that Luke finds a greater balance of light and dark and is a much better Jedi than we see in TPM or AOTC. Yoda knows that this type of Jedi is a superior Jedi, and, that this type of Jedi would be better suited as guardians of balance in the universe to come.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 26 2002, 03:51 AM
Why not eliminate the chosen one, and maintain the balance that we currently have? If we accept that the Jedi impose their will for the "greater good", why wouldn't they do it in this scenario?

I'll tell you why. Because Yoda knows that in the end, things will be better than what they are now, and that the only way to get there is to let happen what we (the movie goers) know will happen (the OT).
From Yoda's words to Obi-wan at the end of TPM, it seemed that Yoda still felt Anakin should not be trained and that he was relenting because the rest of the council disagreed. And in AOTC, if I'm remembering correctly, it's Mace that brings up the possibility that Anakin might be the Chosen One, not Yoda. If Yoda knew Anakin would become Vader and eventually bring about balance, he wouldn't have been opposed to Anakin's training in TPM.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>He knows that, in the long run, the Jedi, as we see in TPM and AOTC, are losing their strength, have lost their impact, and are approaching their roles in a skewed and improper way. [/b][/quote]
The Jedi in the prequels are weak because of the Dark Side. Their loss of impact is because of their loss of abilities. The solution to that problem is destroying the Sith. Eliminating the currect Jedi for rebirth isn't necessary.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>We see that Luke finds a greater balance of light and dark and is a much better Jedi than we see in TPM or AOTC. Yoda knows that this type of Jedi is a superior Jedi, and, that this type of Jedi would be better suited as guardians of balance in the universe to come.[/b][/quote]
We didn't see enough of Luke the Jedi to make a statement of how great a Jedi he was compared to past ones. Yoda never even sought out Luke, and when Luke came to him, Yoda didn't want to train him. Obi-wan was the one that pressed Yoda to do so, as did Luke. And when Luke confronted the Emperor and Vader, he lost. It was Vader that ended it. Luke was certainly important in allowing that to happen, but he didn't demonstrated anything extraordinary as a Jedi.

[justafan]

So let me get this straight. We see Yoda face to face with young Ani, who has, by admission, the highest Midchlorian count ever, and, who Qui Gon insists is the Chosen One. Given my argument that with current balance having to give way to unbalance when the Chosen one arrives, it would seem natural to me for Yoda to hesitate admitting that the time had come. I don't see a contradiction in his actions here. "When you see the boy with the red shirt, and he comes and says hello, a great tragedy will befall you". So now what do you do when you see a boy with a red shirt? Same premise.

The Jedi from the prequels haven't been faced with the Dark Side until we are introduced to the Sith at the TPM. Yes, the presence of the Dark side had been growing, but the Jedi philosophy I was speaking of was the true culprit. The Sith presense was a result of the Jedi's failings, not the cause. When the Jedi were in full power, the Sith didn't dare show themselves. Once the Jedi stopped being what they once were, then the Sith made their presence known. Yoda admitted that many young Jedi were arrogant. Heck, Qui Gon had some issues prior to TPM. The fact is, long before TPM the Jedi began to loose their status. Wattoo was pretty flippant to Qui Gon. Yet, when he finds out Ani is a true Jedi, he treats him with respect. Only to the face of a known Jedi was respect given. Otherwise, they were becoming a laughing stock. Something had to happen to purify the order.

As far as Luke goes, to me it was obvious that he used deception and trickery quite often. And, although we see Qui Gon do the same with the Gungans, we don't really see any other Jedi's using it. Deception is a way of the Dark side. By using both sides for the greater good, he is embarking on a path of balance. And, I would say, that facing the emperor, being tortured, and fighting his own father and resisting the turn to the Dark side makes Luke rank right up there with the greatest of the greats. Without Luke, Vader would not have had redemption. (and remember, the Jedi's abilities enhanced greatly as the technology of filmmaking increased style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif ).

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 26 2002, 10:58 AM
The Sith presense was a result of the Jedi's failings, not the cause. When the Jedi were in full power, the Sith didn't dare
That's not the way it was presented to us in AOTC. Yoda and Mace's statement that their ability to use the Force has diminished was based on the Dark Side presence.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Yoda admitted that many young Jedi were arrogant. [/b][/quote]
As was Luke in ROTJ. That comes with power.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Wattoo was pretty flippant to Qui Gon. Yet, when he finds out Ani is a true Jedi, he treats him with respect. Only to the face of a known Jedi was respect given. Otherwise, they were becoming a laughing stock. Something had to happen to purify the order.
[/b][/quote]

That has nothing to do with anyone being a laughing stock. People will speed on roads until they see a cop present. It has nothing to do with police being laughing-stock. It's just human nature. People want to get places, they want to go about their lives, and they will. When police are around, no one wants the hassle and inconvenience of being stopped and ticketed. Naturally, they're more careful. It's not going to be any different with a Jedi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>As far as Luke goes, to me it was obvious that he used deception and trickery quite often. And, although we see Qui Gon do the same with the Gungans, we don't really see any other Jedi's using it. Deception is a way of the Dark side. By using both sides for the greater good, he is embarking on a path of balance. [/b][/quote]
This had nothing to do with balance. Luke's behavior was to mirror Anakin's, with the difference coming at the end. Anakin chose the Dark Side, while Luke was stronger and didn't give in to those feelings. As many have pointed out, Lucas seems to like parallels.

[justafan]

Was their ability to use the force diminished, or was their ability to use the force to see the future diminished? In either case, it strikes me as odd that the rise of the Sith was blamed for the lack of light force, when the Sith wouldn't have risen without a decline in the light power. I suppose the argument could be made either way.

*

Perhaps the fine line between confidence and arrogance is not as distinct as we would hope.

*

I disagree. In general, people have no respect for the law anymore, or those who enforce it. The running joke is that they are all in a hurry to get to the donut shop. The same for the Jedi. Nobody cared about them. Anakin wiped out, bad, on Corrsuscant , and not one person lifted a finger to help, or to see if he was ok, or to tell him to move that piece of junk off the sidewalk. Nobody cared because the Jedi meant nothing to them anymore.

*

I think Luke's behavior was the model of balance. He may have mirrored Anakin's behavior in some aspects, but as a whole, he was balanced. Would it be safe to say that Luke's level of develpment in ROTJ was the same as Anakin's in AOTC? I think so. If that is the case, Luke definately handled himself with more control and poise. He was a much more balanced Jedi. Measure Luke's behavior against Qui Gon, or a young Obi. We see Luke take much more measured actions than those two did.

*

Borg, I get the feeling you think I'm crazy.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 26 2002, 03:56 PM
Nobody cared about them. Anakin wiped out, bad, on Corrsuscant , and not one person lifted a finger to help, or to see if he was ok, or to tell him to move that piece of junk off the sidewalk. Nobody cared because the Jedi meant nothing to them anymore.
I just don't feel that argument really holds water. The Jedi could be extremely well respected, but when they're not around, some people aren't going to hold themselves up to ideal standards, because they think they can get away with that. And they will, if the Jedi aren't around. That's just human nature.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I think Luke's behavior was the model of balance.
[/b][/quote]

But it wasn't. He was taking too much enjoyment in his powers, he was overconfident, a little cocky. Luke was coming close to the Dark Side, and didn't realize it until he had Vader at his feet, about to strike him down in rage. At that moment, we see him look at his mechanical hand, then down to the exposed wiring of his father's...and it hits him. He's becoming like Vader. And at that point, he throws away his lightsaber. "You've failed, Your Highness. I'll never turn to the Dark Side."

When we see Luke throughout the movie, we note the overconfidence and arrogance, and realize he can turn out like his father, like Vader. And that's not a good thing. That's not balance. Fortunately, when Luke comes to that decision point (which I'm sure will mirror a similar moment for Anakin in epIII), he realizes the danger of his actions and makes the right choice. At that point, yes, he proves himself to be a better Jedi than Anakin was. But not before that moment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Borg, I get the feeling you think I'm crazy.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif[/b][/quote]
I don't think that, Justafan. These are interesting ideas. I just don't see support for them in the movies. Looking at the SW storylines very broadly, your points could work. But we have more than just an outline. We have movies with specifics. With 5 of the 6 movies finished, we have a pretty clear look at Lucas' vision, and I think it differs from your take on the saga.

[Isomorph]

both of you have really made some great points I think you have shed some really good light on this matter,impressive most impressive.now that is what a real debate is all about you guys set the standard.I give you both 2 thumbs up.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Isomorph@Nov 27 2002, 11:45 PM
both of you have really made some great points I think you have shed some really good light on this matter,impressive most impressive.now that is what a real debate is all about you guys set the standard.I give you both 2 thumbs up.
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif That's high praise. Thanks a lot, Isomorph. It's certainly been a good discussion. It's intelligent debates like this one that really keep me coming back.

[Darth Barrister]

I agree with Isomorph. This is one of the best threads on the board. Well thought out, well written and well expressed.

I love Borgmatrix analogy with George Bush. I think that's right on with regard to the prequels.

[Raganork8]

personally think the jedi know absolutly nothing.

[Isomorph]

Originally posted by borgmatrix+Nov 28 2002, 12:27 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(borgmatrix @ Nov 28 2002, 12:27 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Isomorph@Nov 27 2002, 11:45 PM
both of you have really made some great points I think you have shed some really good light on this matter,impressive most impressive.now that is what a real debate is all about you guys set the standard.I give you both 2 thumbs up.
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif That's high praise. Thanks a lot, Isomorph. It's certainly been a good discussion. It's intelligent debates like this one that really keep me coming back.[/b][/quote]
you guys really made some powerful points and like Darth Barrister said well written and expressed,no one got upset as far as I'm concerned you are both right in my book this is the best thread on here,and it's debates like this that keep me comming back for more,it was like reading a very good book not to mention I could see it happning as I was reading it thats when I know its good stuff. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[conron_montyn23]

Yoda comes from a hebrew word, Yodae, which means knowledge, sooo he is full of knowledge.


In my opinion, Yoda knows something is going on, Maul dies, (there must be another sith, since two there always is), the clone army.
Dooku tells Obi-Nobi that some sith is operating within the Senate(but doesnt he want to "...destroy the sith", with obi-nobi.
He says Qui-Gon would join him, does that mean that this Master Diaz is really Kwee-Gon(Qui-Gon).

This leaves many questions that GL will probably rteveal in Ep. 3.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Darth Barrister@Nov 28 2002, 01:17 AM
I love Borgmatrix analogy with George Bush. I think that's right on with regard to the prequels.
Thanks, Darth Barrister. It is an interesting analogy. And I think we'll also see Palpatine's approval rating rise with the war, just as Bush's did during the Al-queda conflict. I think it's that rise in patriotism during wartime that will allow Palpatine to have his way.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by conron_montyn23@Nov 28 2002, 04:22 AM
Yoda comes from a hebrew word, Yodae, which means knowledge, sooo he is full of knowledge.
He definitely realizes the situation isn't good. By the time all the knowledge the Jedi have begins to fit together, it'll be too late.

[Master Cephus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Dooku tells Obi-Nobi that some sith is operating within the Senate(but doesnt he want to "...destroy the sith", with obi-nobi.
He says Qui-Gon would join him, does that mean that this Master Diaz is really Kwee-Gon(Qui-Gon).[/b][/quote]

I don't see how this statement says that. I think he was just saying that Qui-Gon had some sepratist feelings and that if motivated enough, would have joined Dooku (key word motivated)

[justafan]

Thanks to you all for the words of confidence! Although I did enjoy when Bond would get heated, I enjoy more the debates we have been having here.

Maybe the Jedi are commonplace on Correscant (I can never spell it right). Maybe they are so few on Tattoine that no one really understands them. Maybe we just haven't seen enough to figure it out. I'm sticking with the lack of respect POV, and will give you all the laud and honor in 2005 if I am wrong!

Borg, your points about Luke are valid, but what was he doing in ESB and ROTJ? He was saving his friends. Even agains the advise of Yoda and Ben, he was risking everything he held dear for the sake of friendship. I find that action to outway any overzealousness that Luke may have exhibited.

And, broadly or not, I have accepted some POV that were made clear to me during the debates here at TGS. And I hope to have provided that same opportunity for others as well. I still think that most viewers reader what have you fail to see outside the medium. They don't realize that life as we know it in the SW galaxy is much more complex and much more complete than we see or read. We can see a movie like Black Hawk Down (which I haven't, BTW, but hopefull will), and see all the drama and heroism. That doesn't change the fact that half a world away there are still kids starving in America. That's the POV that I would like to think that I am bringing into these discussions--that no matter what is in the script or book, there is an entire galaxy existing (in our imagination, of course) that has a life and breath of its own. Its the unwritten things that are important and give us the full picture.

**

I would like to continue, if I may.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif

Let's set the scene where Yoda (I don't think GL really took into consideration the Hebrew meaning, maybe he did, but given everything else, I think he thought it sounded good and went with it. IMHO), ahem, where were we? Oh, yes, Yoda. Let's assume for a moment that Yoda knows nothing (I've touched on this before, but humor me style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif ). Would his behavior be different than what we see, if he does know nothing? And by nothing, I mean he has no additional knowledge of the prophecy than what we have, has no idea what the Sith are up to, has no clue as to what the future holds, near or distant, and, much like his comments are intended to bear out, is a complete bumbling fool when it comes to all these new things being introduced (young Ani, Maul and the Sith, trouble in the Senate, the introduction of the clones, Dooku being involved, and the ensuing clone war).

We could use Reagan or Quale as examples here (tee hee)....

Seriously, though, if Yoda was not as full of knowledge as I perceive him to be, what do you all think his actions would be? Wouldn't he be having heart attacks from shock by the time the Clone War starts? That's why I can't see that he has only an inkling of what is going on.

[conron_montyn23]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And I think we'll also see Palpatine's approval rating rise with the war, just as Bush's did during the Al-queda conflict. I think it's that rise in patriotism during wartime that will allow Palpatine to have his way.[/b][/quote]

The Empire rules by forcing the people into submission, many people hate the Empire.
After the election many Americans voted Republican.
It seems the people like Bush, and dont hate him as many did hate Palpatine.
Sure some countries hate Bush, but those countries are socialistic and communistic.
How can you compare Bush to Palpatine!?

Do you have a problem with Bush?
If you do.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif

[conron_montyn23]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>QUOTE
Dooku tells Obi-Nobi that some sith is operating within the Senate(but doesnt he want to "...destroy the sith", with obi-nobi.
He says Qui-Gon would join him, does that mean that this Master Diaz is really Kwee-Gon(Qui-Gon).


I don't see how this statement says that. I think he was just saying that Qui-Gon had some sepratist feelings and that if motivated enough, would have joined Dooku (key word motivated)[/b][/quote]

I agree.
But it seems maybe something is up with Kwee-Gon(if you dont minde me calling him that style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif )
I dont know, its another issue.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 29 2002, 06:31 PM
I find that action to outway any overzealousness that Luke may have exhibited.
Luke was a good jedi. But I wouldn't say he was significantly better than the jedi of old. By ROTJ, it's too soon to make that determination. But I would certainly envision him being remembered years later as one of the great knights of the order.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Its the unwritten things that are important and give us the full picture.[/b][/quote]
That's a good point. But when considering the unwritten, we can't ignore the written, which also contributes. Words and actions on Yoda's part in TPM and AOTC contradict the idea that he knows as much as you say.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And by nothing, I mean he has no additional knowledge of the prophecy than what we have, has no idea what the Sith are up to, has no clue as to what the future holds, near or distant, and, much like his comments are intended to bear out, is a complete bumbling fool when it comes to all these new things being introduced
[/b][/quote]
I've never implied Yoda was a bumbling fool. I just don't believe that the knowledge he has is of the detail you've stated. Not knowing everything doesn't mean he's a fool, but that Sidious has been masterful in his planning and execution.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Seriously, though, if Yoda was not as full of knowledge as I perceive him to be, what do you all think his actions would be? Wouldn't he be having heart attacks from shock by the time the Clone War starts? [/b][/quote]
I believe his actions would be exactly as we've seen. He'd try to determine what was going on and put a stop to it(sending Obi-wan to find out who was behind the attack on Padme, ordering Obi-wan to bring in Jango for questioning, trying to capture Dooku so as to end the Separatist movement). Yoda's not going to have a heart attack, because he's lived for centuries and knows evil exists. There's no reason any jedi should be in that much shock at any sign of trouble. More than that, I doubt Yoda or any of the others suspect they're going to lose the Republic and the entire order. They don't know what's in store. They don't think they're doomed.

Going back to another point, I was watching TPM on fox yesterday, and some of Yoda's dialogue stood out to me. He told Obi-wan at the end that Anakin's future was clouded. It was clear that didn't want Anakin trained. He said that Anakin might be the Chosen One, but that training him would be dangerous. As of the end of TPM, it's obvious Yoda doesn't know exactly what's going to transpire in the future and thinks training Anakin is an extremely bad idea. If it were up to him, Anakin wouldn't be trained, but apparantly the rest of the council disagreed.

[justafan]

I wasn't implying Yoda was a fool, either. I was taking the argument to the other exteme. I argued he knew virtually everything that was to go down, and the counter argument was that he knew a little but not enough to matter. I was hoping that the counter argument would outline that if he indeed knew nothing then his actions as we see them would be different. But we can discuss that later style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

And, to be smug, style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif since Luke was the only active Jedi, we can safely assume he was the best active Jedi. But your point has merit, that perhaps seeing a bit more may have made a determination more precise. I am not into the EU, but have read a few of the novels that came out right after ROTJ. Based on those and Luke's actions, I maintain that Luke was a better Jedi (maybe not in physical prowess or outright Force use) than those that came before him. He approached the Force, and selection, and training, in a much different manner than the council did.

Regarding the written things, I don't think I am ignoring them. Sometimes forgetting them, I'll agree. However, we must realize that the enuendos and nuances the characters have and use are sometimes more important than what they are saying. The whole look exchange between Mace and Yoda in TPM when Qui Gon mentions the Sith. There's more there than they are saying, and I think we can all agree with that. My point is, the unwritten is often more powerful and compelling than the written. Those are the things that I think a lot of "recreational fans" (and I say that with utmost love and respect--sometimes I wish I was one, not a fanatic! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif ) miss, and that will help all of us get the big pictue and love the SW universe even more.

*

I would think that Yoda would have Veto power, or at least the ability to sway enough decisions if it came to a vote. Yoda's reluctance supports my argument, IMO. Even though he knows what will happen, and that Anakin will turn on the Jedi, he still lets Anakin be trained. Its the whole knowing what destiny holds for everyone scheme.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 30 2002, 12:55 PM
Even though he knows what will happen, and that Anakin will turn on the Jedi, he still lets Anakin be trained.
Yoda specifically says Anakin's future is clouded, so he doesn't know "what will happen" with Anakin. And in saying that he doesn't want Anakin trained, Yoda reveals that he doesn't realize what will occur and what Anakin's role will be in ending it.

[justafan]

I couldn't disagree more.

Well, I probably could, but won't.

Whether you look at the prophecy as simply what we see in the movies, or read into it that there is much more to it than what we see in the movies, we know that something will happen with the chosen one. So, if indeed Anakin is the chosen one, which, admittedly Yoda hesitates on but everone else is leaning that way, why would Yoda even let him be trained? I mean, if it was someone who simply had a lot of Mids, but not the most, there would be no way Anakin would have been trained at his age. So, by allowing Anakin to be trained, Yoda admits, in action, anyway, that Anakin is the chosen one. Back to the original sentance, since Anakin is the chosen one, there is knowledge of what is to happen, via the prophecy, however limited or grandious you believe it to be.

Yoda's stating he doesn't want Anakin trained is concrete support of my argument. Since he knows what is to happen (insert your interpretation of the prophecy here), he tries to head it off by not allowing Anakin to be trained. No trained chosen one--no fulfillment of the prophecy. At least that is what Yoda is hoping. I never once said he wanted all the death and destruction to occur, only that he knew it was coming.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Nov 30 2002, 09:39 PM
I never once said he wanted all the death and destruction to occur, only that he knew it was coming.
The problem is that Yoda himself says he can't see Anakin's future. Again, I refer you to the end of TPM and Yoda's conversation with Obi-wan.

[Master Cephus]

Weird Question here. Yoda says that Ani's future is clouded...BUT couldn't Yoda then look at his or Mace's or even Obi-Wan's future and see the fate of Ani??? I got this from a book I read long time ago (not Star Wars) but a person could not see this certain person's future, but they could look at other people's and determine what would happen to that person....

[justafan]

Good point, Master Cephus, I hadn't considered that. Appears Yoda didn't either. Or at least he didn't say anything about it. However, given the strenuous objections so far about Yoda being able to see much of the future, I will hold comments on your idea for a while! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif

And, Borg, I still assert that Yoda could sense the future long before it was clouded. I say that he forsaw the events we see in the movies (or bits and pieces of them) before his abilities grew clouded. Even with the conversation between Yoda and Obi, it is obvious to me that Yoda is resigning himself to what he knows will happen. The sigh and pause give it away.

Lets look at it piece by piece. Imagine an infant is discovered with lots of Mids. He's brought before the Jedi council who do all sorts of Jedi testing. What kind? Who knows--its a baby. Not like they do the picture test thing with Anakin. Without that type of communication, they have to probe elsewhere. So what do they do? They dabble a bit on the Dark Side and look forward into the kids future. They see him at the academy--bingo, you're in. They see you sweeping the barn--thanks for playing, here's some consolation prizes. I give this example because Yoda tries to see Anakin's future when he is first brought before the council. Why? There has to be a pattern, otherwise Yoda wouldn't do it. Don't you think that everytime somebody is discovered with a truckload of Mids they check him (or her or it) out to see if it is the chosen one? Qui Gon was possitive Anakin was, so this type of discovery must have happened before, or there must have been some sort of training/discussion about it amongst the Jedi.

Yoda tries, and can't. This bothers him, because now he is faced with the fact that here is the chosen one, and now all this stuff that I haven't shared with anyone is going to hit the fan. I really don't want all that to happen, but, jeeze, its the prophecy. Things will happen the way the are supposed to regardless what I do. So, let's train the boy, keep him under our wings, and hope, really hope, that somehow, we can change things, just a little, and prevent all this death and destruction. I doubt it will happen that way, because of what the prophecy says, and because of what I have already forseen, but I can still hope.

How do I know Yoda tries this type of tactic? In Dagobah, when Luke leaves, and Ben comments that "that boy is our only hope", Yoda says, "No, there is another". He always has a contengency plan. Just in case Luke failed to do what Yoda thought he should do (kill Vader outright), Yoda hoped there was another way. What happened was what was supposed to happen, but Yoda was hedging his bet.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Dec 1 2002, 11:57 AM
Lets look at it piece by piece. Imagine an infant is discovered with lots of Mids. He's brought before the Jedi council who do all sorts of Jedi testing. What kind? Who knows--its a baby. Not like they do the picture test thing with Anakin. Without that type of communication, they have to probe elsewhere. So what do they do? They dabble a bit on the Dark Side and look forward into the kids future.
The point of taking in infants is to bring them up free of attachment, so as to avoid them developing, and carrying with them, feelings of fear and anger, traits of the Dark Side. Looking into the future isn't necessary, especially given the difficulty of doing that. Anakin was much older than those typically brought into the Order, and already carried fear within him, as well as emotional attachments. That was problematic because it increased his chances of falling to the dark path.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Things will happen the way the are supposed to regardless what I do. So, let's train the boy, keep him under our wings, and hope, really hope, that somehow, we can change things, just a little, and prevent all this death and destruction. [/b][/quote]
Except that after testing him, Yoda says he will not be trained. At the end of the movie, he still feels that way, so it seems that the rest of the council disagreed. If Yoda knew what was to come, and suspected that Anakin might be the Chosen One that ends it, he wouldn't have said "no" to training Anakin.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> In Dagobah, when Luke leaves, and Ben comments that "that boy is our only hope", Yoda says, "No, there is another". He always has a contengency plan. [/b][/quote]
This isn't a contingency plan. It's referral to the fact that twins were born. Leia's going to be strong in the force like her brother, so if Luke fails, she can learn the ways of the Jedi and stand up to the Emperor and Vader.

[conron_montyn23]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>This isn't a contingency plan. It's referral to the fact that twins were born. Leia's going to be strong in the force like her brother, so if Luke fails, she can learn the ways of the Jedi and stand up to the Emperor and Vader. [/b][/quote]

I have been reading alot of books such as The Truce At Bakura and Shadows of the Empire.
If the authors are right, Leia couldnt handle the challenge of facing the Emperor or Vader.

She is paranoid of Vader in The Truce At Bakura.
From Yoda thinking Leia could actually face them leads me to believe Yoda must have been smoking some weed, or maybe he was on LSD.... hehehe style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by conron_montyn23@Dec 1 2002, 06:33 PM
From Yoda thinking Leia could actually face them leads me to believe Yoda must have been smoking some weed, or maybe he was on LSD.... hehehe style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif
I'll admit Yoda's actions/choices have baffled me when I look at the OT. I don't understand why he was so complacent, waiting for Luke to come to him before training him. The same could be said for Obi-wan. If they were looking at Luke and Leia as being their last, best chance to stop the Emperor, what were they waiting for? Why didn't they attempt something sooner?

As for the EU, some blame should fall on the writers. I've liked a lot of what has been done, but at other times I've been disappointed. I'm really glad the "New Jedi Order" came along, though. IMO, that's what the EU needed, a storyline to tie together all the different books. That's for a different thread, though.

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Looking into the future isn't necessary, especially given the difficulty of doing that.[/b][/quote]

I don't agree. Why would Yoda risk dabbling on the Dark side to sense the future for Anakin, when he hadn't done it before? And, what is to say that it is difficult to sense the future before it was clouded by the Dark side? (Isn't it unique how looking into the future is fueled by the dark side, and yet doing so is also clouded by it? How do we explain that?) I say looking into the future is neccesary, as who says having the ability to use the force makes one a good candidate to do so? Just about anyone can get a driver's license, but does that make them good people to drive? I don't think so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If Yoda knew what was to come, and suspected that Anakin might be the Chosen One that ends it, he wouldn't have said "no" to training Anakin. [/b][/quote]

I see your logic, but as I mentioned earlier, Yoda knew the events that would befall his beloved Jedi, and the general doomsaying that would happen to the rest of the universe. Why would anyone be joyous in welcoming that? His natural tendancy was to say "nope, not going to happen on my watch. It can happen when someone else is in charge."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>if Luke fails, she can learn the ways of the Jedi and stand up to the Emperor and Vader.
[/b][/quote]

I don't see the sense in that. It would make better sense to train them both at once, so together they could stand and face Vader and Palpy. Two heads are better than one, and that goes for the Jedi, as well. Why train Luke, roll the dice, and then hope that Leia can be successful? It just doesn't fit.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Dec 2 2002, 05:15 PM
And, what is to say that it is difficult to sense the future before it was clouded by the Dark side?


I'm suggesting it's difficult because of the idea of the future always being in motion. I'm assuming that when looking into the future, it will constanly be in flux, due to the fact that every decision point leads to variations of the future. Looking into the future, one would have to sift through all the possible outcomes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>(Isn't it unique how looking into the future is fueled by the dark side, and yet doing so is also clouded by it? How do we explain that?) [/b][/quote]
I don't think looking into the future requires the Dark Side in general, only now during this period of time, since the Dark Side clouds the Force. To get past the cloud, the Jedi would have to probe the Dark Side. Meanwhile, the Sith wouldn't have any problem since they normally use the Dark Side.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I see your logic, but as I mentioned earlier, Yoda knew the events that would befall his beloved Jedi, and the general doomsaying that would happen to the rest of the universe.[/b][/quote]
I don't believe Yoda can pinpoint events so exactly, though. If the prophecy is true, he knows there has to be imbalance for the Chosen One to be necessary. But there are degrees of imbalance. With the Jedi almost completely destroyed, there would certainly be imbalance, but that's the extreme. Imbalance can exist well before that point. In my opinion, the Force is already out of balance in AOTC, with the Dark Side overwhelming it. For all Yoda knows, the Chosen One could have impact then, without the Jedi being eradicated. There's no reason Yoda can expect exactly what state things will be in when the Chosen One has his (or her) impact. Nor does Yoda have any idea of a time frame. The Sith could reign for a thousand years before the Chosen One arrives to stop them. In that case, it wouldn't be Anakin. And again, the Jedi could be around, but imprisoned, enslaved, or just unable to defeat Sith forces and therefore forced to accept it. They wouldn't necessarily have to be all dead.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I don't see the sense in that. It would make better sense to train them both at once, so together they could stand and face Vader and Palpy. Two heads are better than one, and that goes for the Jedi, as well. Why train Luke, roll the dice, and then hope that Leia can be successful? It just doesn't fit.[/b][/quote]
I completely agree that it doesn't make much sense. Yoda and Obi-wan's choices have always baffled me in regards to Luke and Leia. But in terms of fitting, it's true. The "other" that Yoda spoke of was addressed in ROTJ and it was revealed that it was Leia in conversation between Obi-wan and Luke.

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I'm assuming that when looking into the future, it will constanly be in flux, due to the fact that every decision point leads to variations of the future. Looking into the future, one would have to sift through all the possible outcomes.[/b][/quote]

My argument is based on the future being set by destiny, where what happens, happens because it is supposed to happen. The future always being in motion, in my mind, means that at 10:00, if you look at 1:00, 1:01 is still not being looked at. I have argued that Yoda could sense the future, and that he has alwasy been able to, and although now clouded, he still could. It would take time to look at every specific moment in time. I say that he didn't get a "whoosh" of the future when he looked, only a snapshot. But if you get enough snapshots, then you have a fairly good idea of what is to come. This goes to your rebuttal of Yoda's exact knowledge as well.

Your point about the Dark side and sensing the future is valid. I hadn't considered that scenario, and it does make sense. Doesn't Yoda say something about the Dark side looks ahead to the future, though? I'm having a brain fart and can't remember a quote....

Regarding time frames, if you look at the situation where Yoda has snapshots of the future, they would contain certain places, people, and/or events. He would surely recognize those when he sees them. It might even be like one of our de javu's, where we know we have seen this before, but Yoda's would be more of now I know where we are in the time line.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Dec 3 2002, 01:44 PM
My argument is based on the future being set by destiny, where what happens, happens because it is supposed to happen.
That's a possibility. Another perspective is that the future hasn't happened yet, and therefore can be changed based on what actions are taken and what decisions are made. And so there would be no events that are "supposed to happen" as far as the future is concerned. Looking into the past, one could see the events that were "supposed" to happen, but the future is uncertain.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The future always being in motion, in my mind, means that at 10:00, if you look at 1:00, 1:01 is still not being looked at.[/b][/quote]
In ESB, Yoda said the future was always in motion when Luke asked what would happen to his friends. If it was simply a problem of not looking at the right point in time (1:00 vs 1:01) that could easily be fixed by just looking ahead to the appropriate "snapshot". That couldn't have been the situation. The future isn't set in stone. That's what Yoda was referring to.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I have argued that Yoda could sense the future, and that he has alwasy been able to, and although now clouded, he still could.
[/b][/quote]
I understand. But I'm having a problem with that based on dialogue and situations from the movies. Yoda tells Mace at one point "blind, we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see." Those aren't the words of someone who can see the future. And all the talk of the Jedi being weakened and at a disadvantage to the Dark Lords would be untrue if Yoda can see the future. Yoda's seems as lost as the others, so he would have to be pretending. And either the other Jedi are in on the act, or don't know what's going on because Yoda's keeping information from them. Yoda would at least inform Mace and the other Council members. The idea that Yoda knows about the future doesn't fit with what we've been seeing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Regarding time frames, if you look at the situation where Yoda has snapshots of the future, they would contain certain places, people, and/or events. He would surely recognize those when he sees them. It might even be like one of our de javu's, where we know we have seen this before, but Yoda's would be more of now I know where we are in the time line.[/b][/quote]
If Yoda is so adept at seeing the future, he'd be the Chosen One that stopped Palpatine, because the Senator could never have risen to where he did if the Jedi had knowledge of the future.

[justafan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Another perspective is that the future hasn't happened yet[/b][/quote]

For the characters in TPM and AOTC, no it hasn't. But to us, the movie viewers, it has. I argued relentlessly about this earlier. Since we do know what happens, we know that what we see in TPM and AOTC happens to produce what we have already seen in the OT. Therefore, there was no other way that things could have happened in TPM or AOTC, otherwise, they would not cooincide with the OT. What we see was meant to be.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>that could easily be fixed by just looking ahead to the appropriate "snapshot". [/b][/quote]

True, but, only if it was a snap of the finger to look ahead. We have never discussed it, but I don't think its a real time to real time issues. I imagine that looking ahead takes meditation, patience, and time. We see Yoda squinch up (is that a word?) and concentrate when he tries to sense the future. So I don't believe that it is a simple process, but that it is a lengthy time consuming one. Looking snapshot to snapshot would be too laborious to do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>aren't the words of someone who can see the future[/b][/quote]

Unless he was specifically looking at the future moments of the Kamonians, or of a clone trooper. I don't think he would intrude or be so bold as to look at the future of a fellow Jedi. He probably saw them in his own future, but then we're back to the argument that he kept his secrets to himself. He would need to cover his knowledge by feigning ignorance. We are all aware that Yoda keeps the truth to himself until the appropriate moment, ie, the discussion about Leia.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>he'd be the Chosen One [/b][/quote]

But you are forgetting that there is more to being the chosen one than stopping the Sith. We have already discussed this in depth, but in short, the entire OT was critical to the point and purpose of the chosen one....

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by justafan@Dec 4 2002, 01:51 PM
For the characters in TPM and AOTC, no it hasn't. But to us, the movie viewers, it has. I argued relentlessly about this earlier.
Yes, I know. And as I said before, we're outside these movies. We, humans, are in the role of gods in that we create the movies. We might be aware of what will occur having seen the OT already, but that's because Lucas made the decision to make that trilogy first. But as far as the story, the prequels take place first. Yoda still has to look ahead to see the future, which hasn't happened yet storywise. He's a character in the story, not one of us.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>So I don't believe that it is a simple process, but that it is a lengthy time consuming one. [/b][/quote]
You're right. It's a difficult endeavor, which I've maintained throughout this discussion. And that's under regular circumstances. Now, with the Dark Side cloud present, it's even more difficult. If in ESB, Yoda couldn't pinpoint the outcome for Han and company only a couple hours in the future at most, how can you expect him to know so much during the prequels about Palpatine and the eventual formation of the Empire?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Unless he was specifically looking at the future moments of the Kamonians, or of a clone trooper. [/b][/quote]
If he didn't see the formation of the clone army simply because he wasn't specifically looking, then there would be no problem. He wouldn't have to say anything, because it's common sense that one can't see what they're not looking for. But it was clear from the scene that both he and Mace were bothered about not seeing the army in advance, that they should have seen it, but couldn't. It's at that point that Mace says they should inform the Senate of their weakness. This isn't about not looking at the right time. The Jedis' ability to see the future has deteriorated, and that includes Yoda. It's clear from their reaction to Obi-wan's report. Says Yoda: "Blind, we are,..."

[STar war spUNK]

i'm not sure if this would be considered a spoiler but...


what if yoda was actually an evil guy? did you notice how when obi-wan tells mace windu and yoda that count dooku said that the senate was under influence of a sith lord, yoda was like don't believe what he says or whatever? also... he always talks about the dark side clouding their vision and stuff. maybe its because of him! and also, couldn't yoda have killed count dooku's ship by taking that pillar and throwing it at him? but he didn't. also, perhaps he got banned from the jedi order and that's why he got cast off to dagobah. i mean maybe george lucas wants us to be very surprised... and nobody would expect this now would they?

this is most likely pure crap but its something funny to think about!

[STar war spUNK]

also... sifo-dyas

yoda is a s that's if you rearrange the letters. S BEING SITH LORD. hahahahhah. i really am having too much fun with this.

[Renekame_3rd]

Im sorry, but that theory really adds up to nothing. It's terrible style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>when obi-wan tells mace windu and yoda that count dooku said that the senate was under influence of a sith lord, yoda was like don't believe what he says or whatever[/b][/quote]

This is because the dark side has clouded his vision and he can't see it, he's confused.
--
--
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>he always talks about the dark side clouding their vision and stuff. maybe its because of him[/b][/quote]

No, his vision IS actually clouded, we know the dark side does this.
--
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>yoda have killed count dooku's ship by taking that pillar and throwing it at him? but he didn't[/b][/quote]

Did you see the strain Yoda was under just stopping the pillar from falling. No jedi would've actually been able to THROW it.


There ya go, just tore that apart. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Bandet]

no way i would hate the Yoda is the good guy he may be a little clouded but he is the most wise Jedi if he turns out to be banished from the Jedi order then the Jedi order is a joke. Yoda is part of what makes the Jedi order.

[Renekame_3rd]

Bandet, you need some grammar in you posts style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Haunted/Hated]

I think yoda hangs out with hookers and sniff heroin too much, that's why his "vision is clouded" (worst analogy for "being high" I've ever heard!)

And he's clearly just pretending to have a bad back just so he can pick up insurance money, the fight wiuth Dooku gave him away.

[Renekame_3rd]

lol

[Bandet]

Originally posted by Renekame_3rd@Dec 27 2002, 03:30 PM
Bandet, you need some grammar in you posts style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif
ya oh well....lol.... i figure this is a MB not english class.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

[spaceman2386]

yoda has to be good then why in all the rest of the movies is he trying to help the good guys

[Renekame_3rd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>ya oh well....lol.... i figure this is a MB not english class.... [/b][/quote]

Yeah, might be a message board, but the messages don't get through if we can't understand them when we read them style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>yoda has to be good then why in all the rest of the movies is he trying to help the good guys[/b][/quote]

Exactly.

[STar war spUNK]

because he realized that what he did was wrong. he got banished to dagobah!


hahaha.

[JediBendu]

more plausible than yoda fighting dooku on dagobah by a factor of 10 style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Renekame_3rd]

lol. We know yoda isn't evil, and we know Yoda won't fight Dooku on dagobah.

Anyway, the thread 'Is Yoda evil?' Well, in a word. No.

[Mann]

All right, Who started this thread?