The Sifo-Dyas Thread [Archive] - The Galactic Senate

Brian

05-19-2002, 11:52 AM

After considering this issue for an evening, I have come to these conclusions regarding Sifo Dyas.

Sifo Dyas was a Jedi Master and he was a high-ranking member of the Jedi Council 10 years ago (I think it went something like that). The PM of Kimeno said so and Obi-Wan did not disagree.

Ten years ago, TPM took place. Maul was killed and Dooku (now Darth Tyranus) was recruited.

During TPM, Sifo Dyas was not mentioned by GL, but he was said to be on the council when he was alive. I think GL at least revealed all of the members of the council at some point (either by the website or the movie). This is further evidence that he was killed before TPM.

This leads me to believe that Sifo Dyas was seduced by the Darkside (and was still on the Jedi council), sent by Sidious (Palpatine) to create a clone army, and was killed by somebody (Sidious, or a hired bounty hunter, or somebody) all before TPM. Sidious, seeing that he was about to gain control of the Senate by the manipulation of Amadala and the Trade Federation decided to go ahead and create the army using Sifo as his "do-boy/gopher/decoy". This was all unbeknownst to the Jedi. Sidious had Sifo killed before the Council could figure him out, then he found Darth Maul as his new apprentice. How and why Sifo died, we do not know. Keep in mind that the events that made TPM what it was started before the movie began. Amadala was already elected Queen, Palpatine was already a senator, and the Trade Federation already began the blockade. I believe this was all Sidious' doing.

This contradicts my last post so please disregard it. I have given the situation more thought this time. This probably makes no sense and probably has lots of holes, but it is my take on Sifo Dyas. We will not know the true identity of Sifo until EIII (I hope), so anything we say will be a guess.

sean

05-19-2002, 12:32 PM

I don't think that it was Count Dooku because of how he was surprised to see the clone army at the end.

The only thing I can think of is that it was either Sidious, or someone to be revealed in Episode 3.

But I don't know there are a lot of things to contradict all of it. In the earlier movies Obi Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader killed Anakin, but then tells him the real deal and all of that. That could be the same thing if Dyas is Dooku.. if you're referring to the Jedi.

I would think it has something to do with Sidious since he eventually runs the clone army. But, it may not have to do with Sidious if it was a Jedi act to create the clone army. Maybe it has something to do with how Dooku said that Qui Gonn would have helped him out.

Discuss!

Blizzard

05-19-2002, 02:00 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think that it was Count Dooku because of how he was surprised to see the clone army at the end.
[/b][/quote]

If you remember, Jango Fett told Obi-Wan that he was hired to make the clones by a man named Tyranus. If Dooku was Tyranus, yet he was confused about the army... ?

BTW, the spellings are Sifo-Dyas, Kamino (Kaminoans), Sidious, and Geonosis.

Tovor

05-19-2002, 02:54 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think that it was Count Dooku because of how he was surprised to see the clone army at the end. *
[/b][/quote]

There are so many things to consider now, with the events and outcomes of AOTC still so unclear. *First off, I believe the Sith are decievers and manipulators. *They tell partial truths in order to confuse and misdirect.

Sideous seemed surprised near the start of TPM that the Chancellor had sent Jedi to confront the Viceroy, but I suspect that he feigned surprise for he already knew.
Later, he seemed surprised that Queen Amidala had returned to Naboo. "This isn't like her, its too aggressive." *But obviously he already knew she was heading back, as per his urging of her to stay on Coruscant. *In both examples he feigned ignorance to his unsuspecting pawns the TF, in order for his plans to procede at their loss. *

Keeping that in mind, Dooku feigned surprise to the TF and Geonisians regarding the appearance of the Clone army, but when he met Sideous afterward he asked him no questions regarding the mysterious army. *He only said, "Good news my Lord, the war has begun." To which Sideous replied, (I don't remember exact wording but you get the idea) "Excellent, according to plan." *

So obviously the Clone Army was part of the plan and Dooku knew it but the Geonisians did not. *And why should they? *In TPM Sideous used the manufactured threat of the TF invasion to get himself elected to Chancellor. *In AOTC he used the manufactured threat of the Separatists to get himself War Powers and an army at his disposal. *(and in TESB and ROTJ, Sideous used the suggested threat of Luke Skywalker to get Vader to either kill or turn him.)

In TPM the TF trusted Sideous to net them gain and they got attacked at the end. *In AOTC the TF and Geonosians trusted Dooku to net them gain and they got attacked at the end. *In TPM the attack came sooner and differently than Sideous expected but it worked to his favor. *In AOTC it came sooner than expected but worked to Sideous' favor. *Not counting what the ignorant critics said about AOTC being the same movie as TPM, the 2 movies really are the same story in the way Sideous uses manufactured threats and unaware pawns to increase his power. *

Dooku said that the TF went to him for help after Sideous betrayed them. Is that the truth or a lie? Did they really go to Dooku for help, and do they know that Dooku is serving Sideous? Amazing this unfolding story is. The TF work with Dooku and don't know he is allied with Sideous; the Geonosians and Seperatists work with Dooku against the Republic and don't know that Dooku's Master is the head of the Republic. And the Jedi serve Palpatine against Sideous and don't know that Palpatine is Sideous.

Holy hallucinogenic hotcakes, Batman! I wish ANH had been Episode V rather than IV, because this series needs 2 more prequel episodes before it ends!

When the smoke clears at the end of Episode III, regarding the Jedi, Republic, Geonisians, TF, ect., Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader will be the only ones still standing in ultimate power, with Sideous' victims, enemies, and pawns under his feet.

Regarding the term divide and conquer that Vibroblade mentioned, and the obvious means of deciet and misdirect the Sith are so good at, I have been wondering about the conversation between Dooku and Obi-Wan while Kenobi was in captivity. *Dooku revealed that Sideous was in control of the Senate, and thus the Republic, and then urged him to join him to destroy Sideous. *But was Dooku looking to overthrow Sideous like Vader wanted to do with Luke at his side in TESB, or was it part of Sideous' plan for the info to get back to the Jedi Council to confuse and distract the Jedi from Sideous main plan? *Dooku did not reveal that Palpatine was Darth Sideous, only that Sideous controlled a few hundred senators; and it did not appear to me at the end that Mace and Yoda made the connection between Sideous and Palpatine. *So I wonder if they will tell Palpatine that part of the Senate he leads is under the control of the Dark Lord of the Sith? *And for that matter, how much had they told him over the past 10 years about the suspected Sith Master who choreographed the Naboo invasion?

It is also possible that Chancellor Palpatine had been aware for 10 years of the Jedi's investigation of Darth Sideous, and that he used his secret powers and pawns to throw them off the trail whenever they got too close. *Likewise, once he is informed of the mystery of Count Dooku and Sifo-Dyas, he will again use his powers and pawns to divert their investigation. *This is why, IMO, Yoda told Luke in ROTJ not to underestimate the Emperor's powers. *Palpatine is like Satan. *He is a liar, but he also mixes lies with the truth to fool the innocent and unwary.

Syfo-Nueve

05-19-2002, 05:36 PM

Tovor is right, and I feel the need to hammer this home:
Dooku did know about the Clones. This was the objective for Sidious and Dooku. Clones come in on the side of the Republic and do battle with droids on the side of the Sepratists. This is very clear in the final scene with the Sith, this and the fact that Fett mentions Tyrannus.

Of course that doesn't get us any closer to finding whom Sifo-Dyas is.

Senator Theant

05-19-2002, 08:48 PM

In order to truly understand who this guy Syfo-Dyas is, we must understand the actions, past present and future, of the one man responsible for creating this mess. Palpatine may very well be the most complicated character in this series, and for that reason I think we should take a time out to notice the trends goin on here in order to unravel this latest mystery.

Also, its essential for us to realize (or the ones among us that havent yet realized) that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same. That debate is over. Palpatine is the representative of true evil in the series, so there is no reason for Lucas to include a twin brother/clone/separate individual. Doing so would only deduce from Palp's evilness and thats not what this story is about, its about good versus evil.

That being said, lets take a look at Palp's past actions (in TPM):

Actions: Incites a trade dispute in the Senate and underscores the Senate's inability to resolve the crisis by presenting numerous parliamentary motions.

Proof: Sidious: "I will see to it that in the Senate things remain as they are"
Palpatine: "There is a problem over procedure but I am confident we are able to overcome it"

Goal: Reveal the corruption in the Senate and create sympathy for a competent leader who could clean house. Ascend to the Chancellorship once he has proven to be this competent leader when he negotiates with the Trade Federation and ends the trade dispute. This is to be achieved once Darth Sidious urges the cowardly Nemodians to the bargaining table.

Outcome: Trade Federation is defeated and the treaty that would have made their occuaption legitmate is never signed, no negotiations occur. Palp is not disappointed by this turn of events as he recieves the Chancellorship anyways after he manipulates Amidala. Begins to sublty consolidate his power by revealing the depth of the corruption in the Repbulic as soon as he is elected. Knows full well that he will need another deadlock in the Senate and a Civil War in order to gain emergency dictatorial powers.

Palp's actions in between Ep I and Ep II:

Actions: Picks up Dooku as an apprentice after the unexpected death of his previous apprentice, Darth Maul, based on the fact that it would take too long to train another apprentice from childhood. (1) Palp is fully aware that Dooku still has some strong pro-Jedi sentiments and that Dooku is helping him bring down the Republic solely to achieve his personal agenda of ending the corruption that has plagued the Jedi Order. Begins to guide another Jedi, Anakin Skywalker, toward the Dark Side in order to replace Dooku when the time is right. (2) Uses Darth Tyranus (Dooku) to begin to create a secessionist movement among outcasts of the Republic, among them Palp's former client: the Trade Federation, whom are convinced that this movement will benefit their pocketbooks and get back at those in the Senate that have tried to dismantle their financial empire. (3) Places an order for a massive clone army under the disguise of the recently-dead Jedi Syfo-Dyas to the Kaminoans who are desperate to pick up their devastated economy (as a result of the enormous floods, engulfing the entire planet).

Proof: (1) Palp to Anakin: "You dont need guidance, Anakin, I see that you are becoming the greatest of all Jedis."
Anakin to Palp [paraphrased, I forgot the real text]: "I am grateful that you have supplied me with guidance"
Dooku to Obi Wan: "Join me, Obi Wan, and together we may destroy the Sith!"
(2) Dooku to Obi Wan [paraphrased]: "The Viceroys told me about a man, Darth Sidious, whom they said manipulated them"
(3) Obi Wan [paraphrased, please forgive me but I remember this qoute (or something similar to it) distinctively yet I cant remember who he was speaking to, i have been lookin for the script but cannot find the actual one, I dont blame you if you dont believe me, but i believe it to have been said]: "Syfo-Dyas couldnt placed that order, he was dead before that order was made"

Goal: It is very clear what Palpatine is doing, but not easy to understand how. He has employed the services of Darth Tyranus because of his influence and powers with the force. He sends an order for the creation of an enormous clone army which, as our pal Thomas Jefferson thinks about large armies, "is the tool of a dictator." He has basically divided the entire Republic and plans on conquering it once it is on the ground and badly beaten. The number of Jedis at the time (I think roughly 9,000) pose a formidable threat and Palp hopes the number will go down dramatically once the Clone Wars are in full swing, as it does. He will oversee the death of the remaining Jedis from there.

Outcome: This time, everything goes exactly as planned. The Clone Wars have started and will rage until the Republic is replaced by Palp's New Order. Palpatine has successfully manipulated Dooku to believe everything he says. Dooku then hires a bounty hunter, Jango Fett, to serve as the prototype for the clones. Dooku arranges the assassination attempts on Padme Amidala when his clients, the Trade Federation, express their desire to have her "head on my desk." Palp has no hand on this, but is delighted by what chaos it has created and endorses the action fully. He fill ascend to the Emperorship once he has the entire Galaxy in the chaos of his hand. Vader will seal the coffin.

If that doesnt help you guys, I know it certainly helped me. The answer to the question at hand is only briefly mentioned, so as to remind everbody the scope of Palp's intentions. He would pose as a dead Jedi in order to have the Kaminoans take him seriously. By appearing as a member of the Jedi Order, Palp also blemishes the sacred name of the Jedi and may use this in the future as some may ask the question: "Who is responsible for breaking the law in order to further their political agenda?" Remeber, Palp is employing every tactic in order to loosen the Jedi's grip on the galaxy. The explantion of the Clone's origin may also aid Palpatine as he makes his attempt to convince Anakin of the corruption and deciet that has engulfed the Jedi Order. The Jedi Council will be held responsible for the alleged actions of their deceased member, and will finally be abandoned by the One that could bring balance to the force.

All I gotta say about Palp is that he is a genius. I hope to one day be just like him! (
:wink:)

PS: I know all the above paraphrased qoutes are annoying and may add considerable discredit to my argument, but try really hard to remeber whether or not the statement was made. I will post again later to confirm the qoutes, but for now I have to get a hold of a valid Ep II script. For some reason, the scene in which Anakin talks to Palatine alone is ommitted in many of the "official" scripts so I will notify you guys as soon as I find it. Also, the scene where OBi Wan says that Syfo-Dyas was dead before he placed that order is hard to find but Im sure I caught those words. Errr. . . . believe me I am as frustrated as you are. Try to look past that for the time being.

RollaFett

05-19-2002, 11:09 PM

Yeah Tover, no confusion here. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

Here's something else for everyone to chew on: Doesn't it seem odd that there is a large number of clones that are at an adult age? If the order was placed roughly 10 years ago, why are so many of these clones already well into their mid 20's to 30's? I'm guessing at that number, but they are certainly grown up, right? I'm no clone expert, so maybe they tend to grow more rapidly than humans, beats me. Anybody with a theory on this?

Tovor

05-19-2002, 11:31 PM

There was a comment made by Lama Su to Obi-Wan about accelerated growth, enabling them to grow a clone to adult age in half the time

Landos_palmade

05-20-2002, 01:29 AM

No one has yet suggested that the late Sifo-Dyas may in fact be the late Darth Maul.

What we know:

1) Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones 10 years ago, right around the time of TPM;
2) According to Obi-Wan, Sifo-Dyas died 10 years ago, or, as he thought, some time prior to that;
3) Darth Maul was coincidentally also killed 10 years ago;
4) All the Sith Apprentices seem to come from the higher echelons of the Dedi order (i.e., Dooku, Anakin);
5) The Jedi have a history of covering up when members of their order go bad.

Food for thought.

PS - how do I fix the damn typo in my username?

Kambei Koyanagi

05-20-2002, 04:36 AM

There are a few problems.

1. When did Dooku leave the Jedi Order? 10 Years?
2. Also, if he did, was Palpatine in league with Dooku, at the time of Nubian invasion?
3. The order for the clones was placed 10 years ago, Naboo was invaded 10 years ago. Who could it be that placed the order.

I have one theory. Jango was hired by Tyranus. Boba, was about 10 years old. Jango is the host clone. So Dooku did know there was a clone army being made. The most simple explanation is that Dooku is Syfa. Did Dooku leave the order of Jedi, before or after the order for the clones. If he did before the order, Who erased the files in the archives?

Now lets say that Dooku isnt Syfa, Just like everyone in that Galaxy is being played at the hands of Palpatine, there may be an alternative answer.

I may be over analizing this but. Here is something that I have noticed. Mace Windu, yes I know this is an old theory, but hear me out. In the first shot with Jedi in AOTC, when Padme and Jar Jar walk into Palpys Office, all of the Jedi stand was walks towards Padme...But not Mace, he sits there and give a strange look to his right side, and there is yoda. Padme thinks Dooku is behind it, but Mace suggests almost as soon has he stands, that the Jedi think is Spice Miners on the Moons of Naboo? Next Palpy suggests that Obi protect her. On wich Mace is very quick to agree....
Why does Yoda give Palpy such a dirty look? almost like he knows whats going on.

Next, Jedi Council Obi and Ani talking to the council about Padme issue, Mace is the one to say to Ani that he should go to Palpy and have him talk to here. Yoda says nothing.

Next, Why the Hell would Mace want to tell the Senate that there abilty to use the force is exhausted? like telling them (meaning the whole galaxy) that the Jedi are know useless. Yoda (the man) disagrees!

Next, ok ok, this may be far fetched, but why is Mace the only Jedi with a differant colored lightsaber? When you mix red with blue, you get purple.

so, it is possable however unlikely that Mace, is Syfa, and that Mace deleted the files from the Archives.

I realy dont think its true, but I found it Interesting anyway.

Kafer

05-20-2002, 01:44 PM

Wow, you guys have totally flipped my mind. This is some great speculation. And the only things we know for certain is at least the name Sifo-Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council who died over ten years ago. (Direct quote from Obi) And someone used that name to order the clones.

I would agree that all clues lead to Dooku. He could have easily deleted the planet from the archives. Also, he didn't need to go to Kamino. A simple transmission could have done it. Something like, I want to order a million clones. I will be sending someone to base the clones on. Here is the 15 million Republic credits as a down payment. A jedi will be along to check on your progress. Sincerely, Sifo-Dyas.

And I don't want to think of Mace as the bad guy. Although I am wondering what the big "surprise" is going to be. I mean in TOT, we had Vader is Luke's father and Leia is Lukes twin. So what's the big surprise for this Trilogy? Mace is actually working for Sideous?

Teek

05-20-2002, 09:30 PM

Here's something interesting, from the official site in the bio of Senator Ask Aak. It notes that the clone army was "mysteriously commissioned" by the Jedi Council ten years prior to AOTC. While I doubt those who run the Official Site have privy to exactly what will happen in Ep. III, it is official and points to the idea the Council may be blamed for what happens with the clones in Ep. III.

The Bio (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/askaak/index.html)

Jedi_Zachaa

05-20-2002, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Tovor@May 19 2002 - 13:54
So obviously the Clone Army was part of the plan and Dooku knew it but the Geonisians did not. *And why should they? *In TPM Sideous used the manufactured threat of the TF invasion to get himself elected to Chancellor. *In AOTC he used the manufactured threat of the Separatists to get himself War Powers and an army at his disposal. *(and in TESB and ROTJ, Sideous used the suggested threat of Luke Skywalker to get Vader to either kill or turn him.)
<span style="color:cc00ff">I knew all of the facts before, but maybe it's just reading the succession of things he did, but this immediately elicited the response, "MY GOONDESS, he's a LYING son-of-a-gun, isn't he!?" (with slightly heavier language)

Now, more than ever, I truly believe this guy is EVIL TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE!!!!!!</span>

FireChief420

05-21-2002, 12:07 AM

<span style="color:40ff40">I haven't put as much thought into this mystery as many of you have. My original speculation concerning Sifo Dyas was that he as well as Dooku were contacted by Sydious after Maul's death. Consider the possibility that Sydious was testing new Jedi recruits. After Dooku starts the seperatist movement and Dyas ordered the clones, Sydious had Dooku kill Dyas.

Also, I'm not sure where I got this idea but, I thought that Dooku left the Jedi before the Naboo invasion. This story from Holonet News (http://www.holonetnews.com/54/news/1352_1.html) reveals that he started the seperatist movement only two years before AotC. That would leave him plenty of time to order clones in Sifo's name and hire Jango Fett.

-Just my two cents.</span>

shaps

05-21-2002, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Kambei Koyanagi@May 20 2002 - 03:36
so, it is possable however unlikely that Mace, is Syfo, and that Mace deleted the files from the Archives.
You do realize that if Mace is to blame, then GL is gonna get sh*t on for having a black actor be the insider-bad guy.

Not that I care, but after all the rascist discussion after TPM and the recent idiocy of some people with AOTC, they'll have a field day....

Rozi-Wan Kenobi

05-21-2002, 10:39 AM

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif *(for a mechanic) you think too much *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

chill guys! But gd work, those are some hypotheses you guys came up with...all will be revealed in Ep III. GL sure has a lot of explaining to do.

Rogue_Jedi

05-21-2002, 07:42 PM

This is an excellent post! Hopefully this mysterious character's identity will finally be revealed in Episode III.

Until then, here are my thoughts on the subject.

As it was written in a previous post of this thread, Sifo-Dyas could very well stil be alive living under the guise as Darth Sidious.

Yet it was also stated in this thread that Palpatine (who is believed to be the puppeteer Sith Lord in the films) might not be Sifo-Dyas since the Jedi would be able to reconize him.

Nor may Palpatine be Darth Sidious after all. Dark Lord Sidious might just be another one of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine's unassuming pawns during his rise to power.

Sifo-Dyas and Darth Sidious could very well be the same person under the control of Palpatine.

As is was also brilliantly said previously in this thread, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas (who reportedly died ten years before AOTC) was most likely seduced by the dark side of the Force, fell from the grace of the Jedi Order, and became Darth Sidious. Much like the way Count Dooku, a former Jedi himself, became Darth Tyrannus; and how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader.

It would make alot of sense that the Jedi would say that Sifo-Dyas had "died." Very much in the same way Obi-Wan told Luke that his father "died." When in reality they became Sith Lord's and therefore the good men who they once were as Jedi had been killed by the dark side.

It is my opinion, although merely speculative, that Sifo-Dyas, a former Jedi, was seduced by the dark side, left the Jedi Order and became Darth Sidious and was recruited by the corrupt Senator Palpatine, took on Darth Maul as a Sith apprentice, put in the order for the Kamino folk to start cloning Jango Fett for the grand army of the Republic, and erased the planet Kamino from the Jedi archives. Meanwhile the Jedi told everyone that Master Sifo-Dyas had "died." From a certain point of view of course. That would explain perfectly why all the Jedi seemed uncomfortable to talk about the matter whenever Sifo-Dyas' name was mentioned.

I believe, if it turns out that Palpatine is not Darth Sidious after all, that Palpatine could kill Sifo-Dyas/Darth Sidious, or have him killed during the rise of the Empire, so that there would be no struggle for power between them.

Or better yet, Sifo-Dyas/Darth Sidious, could, after having followed Palpatine's orders for so many years, kill the Supreme Chancellor, assume his identity, and then rule the galaxy as Emperor with Darth Vader.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. Episode III sould be interesting. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

Padiwan

05-22-2002, 12:31 AM

If Syfo IS still alive as a Sith Lord, then I have some thoughts:

At first, I thought that Darth Maul might have been Syfo but then I thought that Qui-Gon and Obi would have recongnized him when they fought in TPM.

Then I thought that it might be Dooku but then Obi and Yoda would have recognized him in ATOC. So I cant think of who could be left (without assuming there is some HUGE surprise) to be the actual Syfo Dious.

I think that someone just posed as Syfo to order to clones and darken the name of the Jedi's.

If that is the case, then it could have just been anyone pretending to be Syfo.

However, the point was made that dying to Jedi is a different kind of death. This is an extremely good point and has been stressed heavliy throughout the SW story. If this is the case here, then I dont know who could logically be Syfo.

So pretty much this whole reply doesnt help at all huh...... :confused:

Seanakin

05-22-2002, 03:57 AM

<span style="color:2679ef">What sits most in my mind is the way Mace and Yoda look at each other the moment Obi-Wan mentions this Syfo-Dyas. *It reminds me of the way Owen and Beru look at each other when Luke first mentions (ironically enough) Obi-Wan in Episode IV.

And I agree with R_J about the Jedi's revolving meaning of the word "dying." *In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that's where Obi-Wan picked the practice up.

I'm convinced that Sidious WAS Syfo-Dyas and that he was seduced by the Dark Side before Episode I. *(However long it took to seek out and train Darth Maul, that is.) </span>

Nathan Butler

05-22-2002, 11:34 AM

Except that the explanation that Sifo-Dyas and Sidious are the same and he fell from grace pre-TPM doesn't explain away how Palpatine (whom Rick McCallum has confirmed *IS* Sidious) could be in plain view of the Jedi, yet still have the Jedi not understand the connection.

shaps

05-22-2002, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Padiwan@May 21 2002 - 23:31
I think that someone just posed as Syfo to order to clones and darken the name of the Jedi's.
Great point. This definitely could be exploited by Palpatine in Ep III to finally finish off the Jedi.

Of course, this doesn't help explain if Sidious and Palpatine are one and the same, if Sidious is really Syfo, if Syfo ever died to begin with, etc, etc, etc....

Ahhhh 3 more years!

Darth Whaler

05-23-2002, 12:12 AM

Hi everyone. First time poster here. I chose to leave the message boards I had been posting on because all threads basically turned into a cursing contest of insults rather than Star Wars discussion. So here goes...

I agree that someone posed as Sifo-Dyas to order the clones. The question is who. If it was not Dooku or Sidious (and so far this thread has produced ample evidence for and against the possibility of each), who was it?

I'm not positive on this one, but I think I remember the Official Site having a poll which asked "Do you think there is a traitor on the jedi council." Food for thought. Almost like a hint was being made to us.

To take it a step further, let's just say that there IS a traitor on the jedi council. Who could it be? I agree with some of the other posters in this thread who say it can't (or shouldn't) be Mace Windu. That would not be cool at all. So who does that leave? It would therefore have to be a total surprise. If that's the case, my vote would be for Plo Koon. Sits behind a mask, never says a word, is always there for the big important meetings. Very mysterious character. By the way, I don't think this is actually the case...just throwing out suggestions.

Nathan Butler

05-23-2002, 12:33 AM

If there's a traitor, I'm voting for Oppo Rancisis.

I mean, the guy's got a big long tail thing instead of legs. If I were him, I'd be startin' some shizat too.

Blizzard

05-23-2002, 12:34 AM

Welcome Darth Whaler.

Remember everyone, "Only two there are... a master and an apprentice". In this case it was Sidious/Palpatine and Tyrannus/Dooku.

Has anyone made the connection that Darth Maul died ten years prior as did Sifo-Dyas?

Padiwan

05-23-2002, 12:58 AM

Again, I do not believe Maul is Syfo (even thought coincidence would prove otherwise) because Qui-Gon and Obi-wan would have recognized him in TPM.

As far as who Syfo is, I have convinced myself that the actual Jedi Master Syfo Dyas DID die and someone is posing as him (my logic and what I have read from the book convinces me of this). I strongly believe Dooku is the one posing as Syfo because he obviously had to do with Jango's involvement with the cloners, along with the assassination attempts (two birds with one stone).

Also, the statue Obi-wan was looking at in the library was the likeness of Count Dooku. Obi was there to research Kamino. Obi's looking at Dooku could be telling us that Dooku was there before him (10 years ago) researching Kamino as well, except to erase it from the files, unlike Obi's intention of finding it.

Just a thought.......

Senator Theant

05-23-2002, 04:11 AM

Ewww . . . good point. I was wonderin why Lucas would include something like that and not include dialogue, but that may explain it. Lucas wanted us to concentrate with the picture and what it may imply.

If Mace WIndu was a spy, I would get really pissed off. Though I concede it makes some sense, remember that Lucas does not include plot-twisters in Star Wars plots. I know what youre thinkin: Darth Vader as Luke's father plot twister right? Wrong! For somebody watchin the series from Ep I to EP VI, Anakin's identity is never a mystery, we know hes a Skywalker from the start. Lucas, I believe, would be dumb to employ plot twisters (such as Mace Windu serving as a corrupt Jedi) regardless of the appetite of modern audiences.

Clone02

05-23-2002, 05:41 AM

First post:

Hey everyone, IMO, Sifo-Dyas is got to be Dooku. Sifo-Dyas placed the order(NOT really him), And Jango said, "I was hired by a man named Tryannus." But like most guesses, it's to early to figure it ALL out... If you really want to know who posed as Sifo-Dyas, Star Wars: Bounty Hunter the video game will have a pre-AOTC story about Jango, and how he came to be the donner of the clones. I'm sure it will be revealled in the game.

padmehlc

05-23-2002, 01:08 PM

<span style="color:pink">K got 2 thoughts:

1: Sifo could be Maul - IF we conceed that it is possible that he was tatooed after his conversion thereby making him Unrecognizable - or conceeding with the fact that when a know Jedi has faced a known Fallen Jedi they have called them by their new name - purposefully NOT acknowledging that they were ever Jedi - as if the Jedi died and some other person just took over thier body - type idea - So if that IS Jedi logic on the deal even if Qui and Obi did recognize him they wouldn't say anything because they Sifo they knew was already dead to them.

2: I beleive when Jango said he was hired by Tryannus it was in a response directly to the question of Padmé's assasignation - but i could be wrong as I saw it in French not English and was confused in parts by the dialogue (French is only my second language)</span>

Darshia_Lynx

05-23-2002, 03:25 PM

Tyrannus may not have thought that the jedi or the republic would agree to the use of a clone army so maybe he didn't expect them to use the clones.
I think that Tyrannus may have just assumed the name Sifo Dyas to throw the kimino PM off guard.Jango never heard the name Sifo Dyas before and he was hired by Tyrannus.
Tyrannus was probably told to make the clone army for the use of the republic by palpatine.The trade federation and the Commerce guilds whole sepritst movement seems like a diversion for the frepeblic to get palpatine emergency powers so he could use the clone army.After the army was built he slowly but surely turns the Old Republic into the Empire from the inside out.
maybe alot of holes in my story but ohh well it makes since to me style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

Alex Colville

05-23-2002, 07:44 PM

here is one thing u guys may be missing, i personally think that it was sidious or tyranus, the only reason ithink this is because at the end they say "everything is going as planned", i think that this means one of them either put the order in or knew they were being made and waiting for them to be discovered because these 2 definately wanted the war to start

lmg1352001

05-24-2002, 01:29 AM

What thing that no one has said which is quite interesting......why was the first movie called "the phantom menance"

The definition of a phantom is basically a ghost....possibly someone that has come back from the dead.

Sifodyas is Sidious is Palpy

If the kiminos can make a clone who is to say that they can not alter someones face.....

Also aren't there 20 fallen jedi's who have fallen from the light side of the force...so to the jedi he is probably dead. Just like when obi told Luke Vader killed his father (ANH)
What seems improbable sometimes is simply possible

lotos

05-24-2002, 11:52 AM

1. What if Qui-Gon Jinn is/was Sifo-Dyas and placed the order of creating the clones? He was the apprentice of Count Dooku, after all and he could have succumbed to the Dark side.

2. But what I really wanted to point out was this: I DON’T THINK EVEN GEORGE LUCAS KNOWS WHAT THE STORY IS (well, not really). Have any of you taken a look at the script of ATOC?

LAMA SU: Please tell your Master Sifo-Dyas that we have every confidence his order will be met on time and in full. He is well, I hope?

OBI-WAN: I'm sorry Master - ?

LAMA SU: Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. He's still a leading member of the Jedi Council, is he not?

OBI-WAN: Oh, yes. Sifo-Dyas.

(Obi-Wan reporting to Yoda and Mace Windu)

OBI-WAN (V.O.): ...I've never heard of a Jedi called Sifo-Dyas, have you, Master?

MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order was not a Jedi, I can assure you. A clone army! Ordered by someone in the Senate perhaps... Someone's out to start a war. Who do you think this impostor Sifo-Dyas, could be?

YODA stares back at MACE WINDU, then slowly shakes his head.

?!?!?!?!?!?!
So, what’s the story with Sifo-Dyas, Mr Lucas? Did he, or did he not exist? And something else, quite interesting.

JOCASTA NU (that old lady at the Jedi Archives) describing Count Dooku: He was one of the most brilliant Jedi I have had the privilege of knowing. His leaving was the most recent and the most painful. No one likes to talk about it. His leaving was a great loss to the Order.

OBI-WAN: What happened?

JOCASTA NU: Well, one might say, he was always a bit out of step with the decisions of the Council... much like your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

OBI-WAN: (surprised) Really?

JOCASTA NU: Oh, yes. They were alike in many ways. Very individual thinkers... idealists... He disappeared for nine or ten years [which means at the time TPM was taking place], then he just showed up recently as the head of the separatist movement.

Blizzard

05-24-2002, 12:36 PM

I just read the junior novelization "Boba Fett: The Fight to Survive." Count Dooku/Count Tyranus (with one N) hired Jango to create and oversee the clone army. He went to Kamino to check on the operation throughout the past ten years.

I am convinced that Dooku was just impersonating a Jedi Master the whole time. Being a former Jedi himself and possible apprentice to Sidious, it was easy for him. And with Kamino wiped from the archives, the world was never bothered.

I say Dooku and Palpatine are Tyranus and Sidious and have infiltrated the Senate and are creating their plan, with the army and the Death Star, to take over the galaxy. Which we know eventually happens. They are using the Dark Side of the Force to fog the future to hide their plans from the Jedi.

I think it's obvious that Palpatine is Sidious and has the Force. He's used it on Amidala and Jar Jar to get them to say just what he wants in the Sentate.

If Sifo-Dyas is not Maul, which I don't think it was, then maybe it is just a name thrown at us for confusion sake. Lucas love to keep us guessing!

Clone02

05-24-2002, 01:02 PM

lotos, bringing up the script made me relook at what I had read. The first thing I noticed is they spelled Sifo-Dyas different. Sido-Dyas.
Also Lama Su says the host is,
"A bounty hunter called Jango Fett. We felt a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sido-Dyas hand-picked Jango Fett himself."

And going on Jango's quote,
"Never heard of him. I was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."

Taun We explains when Obi Wan gives her a funny look,
"Sido-Dyas told us to expect him. And he showed up just when your Jedi Master said he would. We have kept the Jedi’s involvement a secret until your arrival, just as your Master requested."

My next guess is they changed the spelling to better hide Sidious' involvement. I thought in the movie they knew exactly who Sifo-Dyas was...

Man, there are a lot of missing scenes now that I look at it again...

Kafer

05-24-2002, 01:56 PM

Oh my GAWD, are you guys serious about the script. Is it really spelled Sido-Dyas?

Well, then, I'm going with, Sifo-Dyas is really Sidious/Palp. And that Sid/Palp never actually went to Kimino. He sent a message and a large wire transfer of funds. The message simply states that he requires a clone army. The person to base the army on will be showing up on such date. I need 1 million troops. Here is a down payment. A Jedi will come when the clones are needed.

Now, since the script was changed and Sifo-Dyas really was a Jedi, let us not rule out that poor Sifo met up with Maul pre TPM and never made it back to the council. So, Sid/Palp knowing his apprentice killed this Jedi, used his name in the message.

So now, Sid/Palp has to deal with the Naboo thing and Maul ends up dead. Perhaps Maul was about to meet with Jango when he was dispatched to find the missing ship. Now, conveniently, Dooku has left the Jedi and has dark side tendencies. Sid/Palp takes him under his wing, encourages the dark side in him and Jange meets Tyranus/Dooku for the deal for the clones.

Either that or Sifo is really Kitster. :biggrin:

lotos

05-24-2002, 03:50 PM

[bringing up the script made me relook at what I had read. The first thing I noticed is they spelled Sifo-Dyas different. Sido-Dyas. Clone02]

No, I looked up in the script and they seem to be having problems with spelling, because in some places they use Sido-Dyas and in some places Sifo-Dyas.

My point was – dropping scenes out of the film is one thing; it’s something different to change the story, namely:

1.In the film Obi-Wan says Sifo-Dyas was a REAL Jedi, who died 10 year ago.

2.According to the script Obi-Wan (Yoda & Mace) has never heard of that name.

It kinda gives me a hint to think that Sifo-Dyas is a totally new character in the film (though I don’t really believe that).

If, according to the script, a Sifo-Dyas never existed SOMEBODY had to have used a made-up name and told the Kamino folk he was a Jedi. It’s not so much about Sifo-Dyas as a person/character; it’s more about somebody using another name.

So, what if we’re all going in the wrong direction? We think Sifo-Dyas is somebody – but what if he’s never existed and it’s just a name?

MJADE042385

05-24-2002, 05:00 PM

What I think is that Dooku is Sifo-Dyas. I know he was shocked at the army in the end. Maybe Sidious used the jedi mind weep. How else is he shocked. darth Maul didn't look smart enough to have the army ordered. But the is the possiblity that sidious order the army himself in the name of Sifo-Dyas.

Nathan Butler

05-24-2002, 08:26 PM

Okay, wait. Let's clear something up right here, because people keep coming back to it.

DOOKU KNEW ABOUT THE CLONE ARMY! GOOD GOD!

Did NO ONE understand that he was feigning his ignorance and shock, just as he feigned it at Obi-Wan's imprisonment?

I would think that the course of manipulations in both films should be pretty amazingly clear by now, with the only exception being the identity of Sifo-Dyas.

This is the same "well, golly, gee" ignoring of the facts at hand that caused people to endlessly debate whether Palpy and Sidious were the same person even AFTER Rick McCallum personally confirmed it, or which causes people to debate why Jango's head didn't fall out of the helmet when we SEE the damn thing go flying off to the right in the second shot of the decapitation sequence.

Overall Goal: Eliminate the Jedi and essentially take over the galaxy by taking over the Republic as a totalitarian state.

Stage 1: Sidious/Palpatine has to maneuver himself into the supreme position of authority in the Republic.

Step 1: Help sow distrust and corruption in the Senate. Based on EVERYTHING that has come out of LFL's mouths, not to mention their later Official materials (which we'll leave out of this one since that's Official, not Canon), it was Palpatine doing a good job of creating that distrust through manipulation. Think about that then watch TPM again and check out the great performance Ian gives as Palpy in his "He is mired by . . . BASELESS . . . accusations of corruption." Let this weaken Valorum.

Step 2: Find a way to both remove Valorum and ensure that Sidious/Palpy will be the most likely replacement. How? Start with an existing situation and help it to come to a boil, allowinig this to expand on Valorum's problems by making him look even weaker, finding someone "innocent" to act as the voice of calling for Valorum's replacement, and find some way to make yourself look like either the natural leader or the right choice out of good feelings.

He backs the TF and prods them to start an armed conflict over the existing trade issue. The target? Palpy's homeworld, so he can both play for sympathy and let his planet, and those he can more easily manipulate from his planet, take center-stage for the duration of the crisis. Bring the "young and naive" Amidala to the Senate, where she can be easily manipulated by the situation on Naboo to call for Valorum's no confidence vote. Then let the sympathy being garnered by the Naboo situation and the gratitude being granted by having someone from Naboo call for the vote spin into making him the most likely replacement.

Objective 1 accomplished.

Stage 2: Move that republican government into a totalitarian one, while arming himself to stomp all opposition and sever ties to former, inconvenient, allies.

Step 1: Use Dooku to bring the TF that felt betrayed by Sidious back into the manipulative fold, using them to help gather support from other organizations. Allow Dooku's influence and prestige to bring secessionist feelings to the fore with corporate backing, manipulating the creation of a "them" to the Repubilc's "us."

Step 2: Have that "them" build up an army to appear more of a threat, but ensure that said army will be able to be defeated by the "us" army, making the leader of "us" (Palpy) a hero, not someone with the reputation of a late-term Lyndon Johnson.

Step 3: Knowing you will need your own army, build up one in secret, making sure that someone OTHER than yourself can be blamed for its creation if it is discovered too early. (i.e. do it in the name of, say, a Jedi, instead of officially through Republic channels.)

Step 4: When the army for "us" is ready, spark a conflict, while appearing to be the victim. In other words, have Dooku spur his movement forward.

Step 5: Begin rumblings of a need for rearmament or original armament. Hence, the Military Creation Act. That way, even if it does not get voted into reality, it would be a savior when it appears, keeping much of the opposition silent when it is revealed. Thus, your bases are covered. If it is revealed too soon, you blame the Jedi. If the vote goes well, it is ready early and you had great foresight. If the vote goes against the creation act, you'll be a savior by having them there anyway when they are unexpectedly called for.

Step 5: You make sure that when things start going bad, everything is deadlocked, so the ONLY way to get the army ready to fight is to get yourself emergency powers. Make sure it looks like EVERYONE ELSE'S decision but yours, like, say, the opinion of Organa, Aak, and Binks.

Step 6: Once you have your emergency powers and your army, there's no need for the enemy anymore except to get wiped out. You cut and run, and happily so. In fact, you take anything potentially useful that the enemy you were manipulating was creating so you can use it on your own later. Thus, Dooku takes the Death Star plans and hightails it back to Coruscant.

Step 7: Let the carnage ensue, knowing that you've successfully manipulated yourself to the highest office in the land, gotten rid of potential loose ends, and have the power to crush any opposition.

Now, maybe that's the fact that I'm a history, econ, and polisci teacher, which means I've been living this stuff for years now, but that should all be PAINFULLY obvious to anyone paying attention to more than the "flash and bang" of TPM and AOTC thus far.

So can we stop saying Dooku was surprised by the Clone Army? He's faking it so he can make his clean break with the Death Star plans and leave them high and dry without thinking they were betrayed. Easy enough.

Vyndim

05-24-2002, 10:29 PM

Just speculation here but I think Dooku did place the order...He used his jedi connections before he was known as Dooku and erased the files on Kamino. Then he used the name of a dead jedi of some importance to place the order. Now the part about Dooku not knowing about the army, well its just a ploy. He works for Sidious who is the supreme chancellor of the republic, they want the republic to win remember? He used the geonisis to contstruct the plans of the death star, then he most likely abandons them and joins back with Sidious. Double sided coin really, the whole seperatist thing is just an excuse to autherize the clone army and give emergency powers to Sidous, just like he planned. The war is just a snag which everyone gets cought up in.

Tovor

05-24-2002, 11:40 PM

Nathan, brilliant. I like the way you laid that out in such detail. The Dooku/Tyrannus/Palpatine/Sideous secret plan is one of the issues I enjoy most when discussing the whole saga, but I could not have said what you said as well as you did.

Blizzard

05-25-2002, 12:27 AM

I agree. That was awesome, Nathan.

Nathan Butler

05-25-2002, 01:08 AM

Leave it to me to get p.o.'ed, then get a standing ovation for it.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

That's just one of the things that have bothered me since TPM. People seem to not be able to *get it.* *They say movies need to be dumbed down because people just can't handle more subtle plots, and it's somewhat sickening to see that it's something a supposedly culturally-accessible as Star Wars that helps prove those naysayers' point.

Now, if only I could figure out why I'm a mod, but apparently don't have any mod controls on the screen anywhere . . .

Polunis

05-25-2002, 03:09 AM

IMHO, the Star Wars saga must remain apart from the rest of Hollywood's trash; there are some gems out there, but most are a poor excuse for entertainment. The movies shouldn't be dumbed down, because we all need to think every once in a while; watching a movie is typically an overwhelmingly passive experience. The true benefits of viewing interesting films is manifested in clever speculation; Star Wars has provided us with much to chew on style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

If people don't like to think, then they ought to go see another movie.

Luthien

05-25-2002, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Tovor@May 19 2002 - 13:54
There are so many things to consider now, with the events and outcomes of AOTC still so unclear. *First off, I believe the Sith are decievers and manipulators. *They tell partial truths in order to confuse and misdirect.
......

Regarding the term divide and conquer that Vibroblade mentioned, and the obvious means of deciet and misdirect the Sith are so good at, I have been wondering about the conversation between Dooku and Obi-Wan while Kenobi was in captivity. *
Indeed, I think that is part of the reason why the Sith are so feared. Because they care nothing for others...they lie, cheat and manipulate to get people to do what they want. As you pointed out, Teek, Sidious treated the Trade Federation repeatedly like his fall guys, like his tools. No regard for other people at all. Comparing Palpatine to Satan is very apt...Satan is also called the Prince of Lies. And so is Palpatine. He mixes his lies with just enough of the truth to make them believable.

Like he gets his apprentice to tell Obi-wan that there is a Sith in the Senate. I fully believe that that was done to manipulate the Jedi. Yoda himself disregarded it as a lie, because of the source it came from. A perfect way to use the truth, slightly bent, to throw people off Palpatine/Sidious's trail. Not to mention spread mistrust among the Jedi.

lotos

05-25-2002, 08:44 AM

Yeah, just one more question. It seems more and more likeable that there is a traitor among the Jedi's.

Any idea who that may be?

Padiwan

05-27-2002, 07:33 PM

A good point was made. The Sith are regarded as liers and deceivers and the jedi know it. When Obi-Wan explains the message to Yoda and Mace about what Dooku said, Yoda dismissed it as untrue. I think Palpy told Dooku to tell Obi-Wan that so the jedi would think he is lying; therefore, they would be thrown off. Does that make sense???

Vyndim

05-27-2002, 07:38 PM

Actually Padiwan I was thinking the same thing. Sidious knew that the jedi wouldn't believe Dooku. By doing so, Sidious removed any possible blame on himself and put Dooku into center stage. Which is probably what Sidious wanted, he wanted Dooku to be targeted, while the jedi battle the seperatists Palpatine/Sidious makes his move... Clever.

Kit Fisto

05-27-2002, 09:04 PM

Well, I was reading through this from the beginning and was about to blow my lid about the questioning of whether Palpatine is Sidious and whether Dooku knew about the clones.
But then Nathan already did! Thanks!

Jango even says he was hired by Tyranus... Sidious CALLS Dooku Tyranus... hello.

And While I can understand people not familier with SW not realizing the Palpatine/Sidious connection.... Anyone who knows Ian McDirmad (sp?) should be ashamed of themselves for not recognizing the same bloody actor.

Oh well.

And I really don't see why it's necessary that there be a traitor on the Jedi council. Anyone (Sidious or Dooku) could have placed the order with the Kaminoans for the Clones and called themselves Syfo-dias.

Whether one of them actually was Syfo-Dias is another matter. Who knows about that... I still doubt it, but oh well. Syfo-Dias was probably a poor dead jedi master who is now having his good name marred.

Padiwan

05-28-2002, 01:06 AM

In ANH, when Obi-Wan finds Luke after chasing away the Sandpeople, Luke tells him that R2-D2 is his. Obi-Wan says, "I don't remember ever owning a droid." Now I know that Obi-Wan never owned R2-D2; however, in the past they worked very closely together. Why didnt Obi recognize R2? Or 3PO for that matter?

Kit Fisto

05-28-2002, 02:40 PM

First of all, you have to wonder about Obi-Wan's honesty in that whole part. After all he said Luke's father was dead. Perhaps many things he said were only true from a certain point of view.

It makes sense that, trying to hide the truth from Luke, he would not reveal his connections to the droids since they closely relate to the truth about Anakin. The droids wouldn't recognize him (They've had their memories wiped most likely to protect Luke and Leia) so there's no reason why he shouldn't play along with the history they've created to protect Anakin's children.

That said, I'm not really sure if Obi-Wan and Threepio have even met! We've certainly never seen them together. And R2 and Obi haven't had much screentime together either. He belongs to Padme evidently and while Obi-Wan has seen R2 there's no reason to think R2 would leave a lasting impact on him. Especially if there are other droids that look almost exactly like R2.

So either he's just forgetful, or his penchant for hideous lies continues!

sifo-dyas

05-28-2002, 09:49 PM

I'm going to really rock the boat now...

Jedi Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi. He is dead before TPM. It is not Palpatine, otherwise Yoda would recognise him.

However, Kamino is an outer rim system so the Kaminoans have no contact with the Jedi. One thing that is very clear is that the Kaminoans, although very intelligent are rather arrogant of the Republic.
Personally, I believe Jedi Sifo-Dyas did visit Kamino and place this order, before his death saying "another Jedi will visit shortly". As with other Jedi they can see somewhat into the future, and I have always believed there was never a Sifo-Dyas imposter.

Now, whch of the Jedi is going to have preminitions of the Death Star?

TheWookieMonster

06-01-2002, 06:40 AM

This is my first time posting anything, so please forgive me if I mess this up.
Could Sifo-Dyas be Qui Gon? Maybe this has already been ruled out but there seems to be lots of evidence to this conclusion. Here are a few examples to think about,

1. In TPM Qui Gon didn't disappear when he died. Only Dark Side of the force dudes don't vanish.
2. In TPM Qui Gon talks about the prophesies of the one who will being balance to the force. He would have had to visit the Jedi library to find this out. No other mention is made of any other jedi reading anything.
3. IN TPM Qui Gon disagrees with the council on many issues.
4. In AOTC a Jedi ordered clones 10 years previous and that Jedi died. Qui Gon died at a time that would fit that timeline.

Anyway he is dead so maybe it doesn't matter but I was just courious to see if anyone thinks that this could be possible. I admit there are some problems with this theory, the biggest one would have to be, why would have Darth Maul killed somone who was working for Palpatine? Maybe Qui Gon was working for/with Dooku.

This wookie is out of here...

moocat

06-01-2002, 05:33 PM

I considered that myself, but it's probably unlikely.

The obvious answer is that it's Sideous and that's probably the correct one.

Although i do think one of the more interesting points of AoTC was the allusions to Qui-Gons morals and ideals in the Jocast Nu and Dooku speechs.

Painted him in a bit different light. From rebel to possible renagade

lmg1352001

06-01-2002, 08:07 PM

That is not neccesarily true about Qui Gon....and.....being on the darkside. In AOTC many Jedi died in the stadium and none of them disappeared.

But I believe Dooku was doing what the Sith do best: lie, deceit, misdirect and cloud the good side.

One thing though when Anakin went and slaughtered the tuskenraiders why would Qui Gon telepathic scream "no anakin no". He might have been a rebel but maybe not a traitor.

Will meditate on this.......

mace

06-02-2002, 03:27 AM

No, there is no way that Qui-Gon could be Sifo-Dias. First of all, why would he have two different Jedi names? Secondly, Obi-Wan says to Yoda and Mace (paraphrase), "I was under the impression that Master Sifo-Dias died before that." Obi was Qui-Gon's padwan, and a witness to Qui-Gon's death, so there would be no doubt in his mind about when exactly Qui-Gon died.

That is not to say that it's impossible for Qui-Gon to somehow have been involved with the creation of the clone army--it's just impossible for Qui-Gon and Sifo-Dias to be the same person.

QuigonWindu

06-02-2002, 08:20 PM

Strong in the force ,you are,Teek. Correct, you are. Sidious, Sifo Dias is. To his name, you must pay attention. Si= Sidious Dias= dious. Solved, your question is.

Count Dooku

06-02-2002, 10:20 PM

I think Dooku might have ordered the clone army. Well first off Dooku had to known the Clone Army being built on Kamino. Why? He borrowed Jango Fett's DNA. Jango knew him as "Darth Tyranus" so I think Dooku knew all along. I dont think Sidious made the order, because he is hiding in the shadows. But then I was thinking what if Qui-Gon did? He was a Jedi Master who died 10 years ago. But I dont know, just a thought. I dont think Qui-Gon did though, although he disagreed with the council it wasnt like him. He was intelligent, and knowledge of the living force. I just wish Qui-Gon would of lived to train Anakin and then Dooku vs Qui/Ani. Dooku would have been fighting his former Padawan! It's just a theory of how the Clone Army was created but I doubt it. By the way did anyone here his voice in AOTC when Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens? "No Ani No!". I think it was him, was it?

lmg1352001

06-02-2002, 11:49 PM

That is a definite confirmation on Qui-Gon when anakin slaughtered the tuskens. But if Dooku ordered the clones than it really is Sifo-dyas. Dooku ain't doing anything without his masters knowing.

If they can clone people than why can't the Kaminos alter faces. I bet that is a lot easier than cloning.....

http://www.starwars.com/databank/technolog...ning/index.html (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/cloning/index.html)

Plus you have to admit the story is all that more exciting that A jedi master on the council betrays the council and destroys everyone.

Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

I will meditate on this......

Winston_Sith

06-03-2002, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by quigonwindu@June 02 2002 - 19:20
Si= Sidious Dias= dious. Solved, your question is.
But Master, what about the "fo" part of Sifo-Dias' name?

I wan't aware, while watching AOTC, that the Kaminoans had a Gungan-esque speech impediment involved in their dialect.

Am I mistaken, Master?

SithSlayer

06-07-2002, 09:04 PM

In response to the posting done by THEWOOKIEMONSTER, your first two ideas are wrong. The thing that determines if you disappear when you die or not is the fact that you accept death. If you are killed, like Qui-Gon or like the Jedi's in the staduim fight in Ep. 2, you are not accepting death, you were killed. If you do accept death, like Yoda, Ben Kenobi, and even Darth Vadar, they all dissappear. They accepted thier death. As far as Gui-gon knowing about the prophecy, all Jedi's knew about it. The fact he went to the library does not mean anything.

As far as the topic goes, I think that Sifo-Dyas is actually Dookie. Obi Wan changes his name after there is no more Jedi Order. In ANH, he is called Ben Kenobi. It is possible that Dooku did the same thing. This was actually mentioned earlier in the disscussion. He just changed his name, from Sifo-Dyas, to Dooku, to Darth Tyranus. In fact, if I am not wrong, I believe that Yoda is the one that trained Count Dooku. Dooku is defenitely working to Sidious, they needed a reason to start a war, and Dooku provided that reason. By leading the seperatist movement, he provided someone for Sidious to defeat. He was just playing dumb the whole time, even though the whole time he knew everything was going according to plan just like he told Sidious at the end.

Kyan

06-09-2002, 11:45 PM

If Syfo-Dias was a high ranking/leading member of the Jedi Council 10 years prior to AOTC, meaning it was at the same time as TPM - why didn't we see him sitting on the Jedi Council? I have read elsewhere that Sifo-Dias was the Council name given to Qui-Gon Jinn when he took his seat on the Council, _prior_ to TPM, out of respect for a former Jedi Master of the same name. Can anyone else care to elaborate on that?

DblDwn

06-12-2002, 03:25 PM

When Obi-Wan reported to Yoda and Mace, via holgram, that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas had placed the order for the Clone Army, Yoda and Mace both get looks on their faces that they had thought that something like that was the case. After Obi-Wan is finished reporting, Yoda says something like, "Blind are we, if creation of this army, we could not see." Too which Mace suggests that they report to the Senate that their ability to use the Force has been diminished. Yoda then says that only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of their weakened powers.
I think that Sidious is Sifo-Dyas. The simularities in the name, and the fact that Sifo-Dyas ordered the Clones, is too much of a coincidence. It would make sense that Sifo-Dyas somehow fakes his death, in order to remove suspicion from himself, and then orders the Clones. In the Star Wars Chronology, it says that Dooku leaves the Jedi Order just after TPM. So, after the death of Darth Maul, Dooku is recruited by Sidious, since they are both former Jedi, it wasn't hard to persuade Dooku to join him, and Dooku hires Jango to be the source for the Clones.
Being as that Dooku is playing both sides of the field here, actually a Sith Lord working for Sidous, but appearing to lead the Separtists, it is necessary for him to act surprised at the arrival of the Clone Army. Of course he knew of the Clones, he, being Darth Tyrannus, hired Jango as the source, but he could not let the Geonosians and the Trade Federation know that he is just using them to do the bidding of his master.
Now when Yoda tells Mace that only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of their weakness in not being able to sense the goings on at Kamino, is he confirming that the Dark Lord is in fact the man once known as Sifo-Dyas. Think about it. Being as that Sifo-Dyas was once on the Jedi Council, he would know that if their ability to use the Force was diminished or not. He would know that the Dark Side clouds everything and that he could use the power of the Dark Side to hide certain matters from the Jedi.
Now if Sifo-Dyas is in fact Sidious, that doesn't mean that he has to be Palpatine as well. In most mysteries of the past, the person who is most obviously the villain, hardly ever turns out to be. Being as that Palpatine is so obviously Sidious, that is why I do not believe it to be him. He could be a Clone, or, when the time is right, Sidious may kill Palpatine and step into his roll. Asuming that everyone here has seen AOTC think about this, at the end of the movie it is shown that all events are happening at the same time. For no other reason than that it is sunset on Coruscant in all three scenes before it ends with Anakin and Padme's wedding on Naboo. You have Dooku meeting with Sidious and telling him that the war has begun and Sidious replying that basically everything is going to plan, you have Obi-Wan, Mace, and Yoda in the Jedi Temple discussing Dooku, the fact that the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen and that Clone Wars have only just begun, and you have Palpatine, Bail Ogana and others watching an entire army of Clones below, watching transports, which resemble pre-Star Destroyers, flying off. Now my question is this, if we are to believe that all this is happening at the same time, how is Sidious with Dooku and Palpatine with Bail Organa and the others, if they are indeed the exact same person?
Please respond and let me know what you think?

Tovor

07-21-2002, 08:57 PM

Bump to the top for a great discussion to continue here...

Obidobi

07-21-2002, 09:44 PM

After reading the AOTC novel, I now belive that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi.
According to the book ,both Mace and Yoda knew about him.

But I don`t belive that Sifo-Dyas placed the order.
I belive that Dooku did, by order from Palpy/Sidious , and used the recently fallen Jedi`s name, so it all comes back to the Jedi.
Now everybody belives that the Jedi ordered the clones.

Just a theory!!

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unhappy.gif

Blizzard

07-21-2002, 10:29 PM

Man, I looked everywhere for this thread, thanks Tov!

Tovor

07-21-2002, 11:06 PM

No prob, Blizz. *I just went to the selection area on the bottom and set it back to the last 90 days because it had slipped off the current topic list. *Dang, I should be a mod round here! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

Jedi Terri An' Junn

07-22-2002, 05:02 AM

In the UK magazine SFX beofre AOTC release they ran a spoiler of the plot taken from a pirate script. This had in it the scene with Ki Adi Mundi on the droid control ship which didnt make it to the finished film so it has some credence. This spoiler mentioned a scene where Sidious dressed as a Jedi calling himself Sifo Dyas orders the clone army and uses a mind trick to make the Kimonans use Jango Fett as the template. I would guess the best place this scene could have gone in as a flashback would be when the prime minister explains to Obi who ordered the army. Bering in mind through the films and old republic novels how deep the planning and manipulations of Sidious go I think it must have been him.

Question ~ when Yoda picked up the clone army did he get his Jedi Cheque book out and pay for them?

Lonesabre

07-22-2002, 03:22 PM

A lot of things happened ten years ago after the battle of Naboo. Qui-Gon and Syfo-Dais {apparently?} passed on and Dooku defered from the Jedi Order.

I agree that the names Sideous and Syfo-Dias are close and probably warrant a connection but this could just be a Lucas red herring.

An earlier idea that I had had was that Dooku was actually Syfo-Dias. This would work as follows. Both are resideing in the Jedi Order and suddenly Dooku learns of Syfo-Dias' totally unrelated death somewhere else in the galaxy. Dooku, who has become increasingly restless of the Jedi way off late, having met Sideous and interacted with him {Darth Tyrannus}, takes this oppourtunity to leave the Order and scoot on over to Kamino to order a batch of clones under the guise of the recently deceased Syfo-Dias...

I admit that this idea is not as free flowing as DblDwns effort.

I strongly believe that Sideous and Palpatine arent the same person - to obvious, even by Starwars standards.

I think that Sideous made a clone of himself, with the excelerated growth, but without the force powers, so the Jedi council cant sense him, and created "Senator Palpatine" a pawn for him to use at his own will. When Palpatine reaches the level of supreme ruler, or Emperor, Sideous, who has been guiding him {conciously or sub-conciously} would step out from the shadows and kill the clone and take his 'rightful' place as supreme ruler of the galaxy!

Phew! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

PS Ive moved this from another thread thats been blocked, I hope that its okay!

borgmatrix

07-22-2002, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Lonesabre@July 22 2002 - 14:22
An earlier idea that I had had was that Dooku was actually Syfo-Dias. This would work as follows. Both are resideing in the Jedi Order and suddenly Dooku learns of Syfo-Dias' totally unrelated death somewhere else in the galaxy. Dooku, who has become increasingly restless of the Jedi way off late, having met Sideous and interacted with him {Darth Tyrannus}, takes this oppourtunity to leave the Order and scoot on over to Kamino to order a batch of clones under the guise of the recently deceased Syfo-Dias...
This makes the most sense to me. Either Dooku or Sidious could have impersonated Sifo-Dyas and placed the order.

CieSharp

07-23-2002, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by Lonesabre@July 22 2002 - 14:22
I think that Sideous made a clone of himself, with the excelerated growth, but without the force powers, so the Jedi council cant sense him, and created "Senator Palpatine" a pawn for him to use at his own will. When Palpatine reaches the level of supreme ruler, or Emperor, Sideous, who has been guiding him {conciously or sub-conciously} would step out from the shadows and kill the clone and take his 'rightful' place as supreme ruler of the galaxy!
This makes sense. A mafia crime family is typically composed of a figurehead leader who makes public appearances and a true leader who works behind the scenes and pulls the strings of the puppet figurehead. Besides, there is really no explaination of how Chancellor Palpatine cannot be detected by the Jedi.

Palpatine/Sidious seems to be a clone afficianado, so why not make a clone of himself? The only hitch to this logic is that the Kaminoans would know about it. And there was no foreshadowing that would suggest that they're keeping such a huge secret.

Obidobi

07-23-2002, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by obidobi@July 22 2002 - 02:44
After reading the *AOTC novel, I now belive that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi.
According to the book ,both Mace and Yoda knew about him.

But I don`t belive that Sifo-Dyas placed the order.
I belive that Dooku did, by order from Palpy/Sidious , and used the recently fallen Jedi`s name, so it all comes back to the Jedi.
Now everybody belives that the Jedi ordered the clones.

Just a theory!!
I still belive that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

Darth Darthy

07-23-2002, 12:47 AM

Dooku left the Order at the same time Sifo-Dyas died. Coincidence? There is no such thing...

It appears my young Padawans need a new leader. A stong leader who will not fail this Republic... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

CieSharp

07-23-2002, 01:12 PM

The following provides very interesting information about Palpatine and Darth Sidious:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthsidious/

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/

Darth Sidious is listed as being 1.78 meters tall, while Palpatine is 1.73 meters tall.

So Darth Sidious is approximately 2 inches taller than Palpatine. Perhaps Sidious wears those same platform shoes that teenybopper girls wear at the shopping mall? We may never know.

DarthLestat

07-23-2002, 02:51 PM

This is a great thread.
IMHO I have to go along with Sideous impersonating Sifo-Dyas to get the clones ordered. Dooku must have turned to the Dark Side by then as he hired Jango, and from then Sideous' plans moved smoothly.
I think that Lucas must have intended Sifo and Sideous to be one and the same, especially with the original name being Sido-Dyas. Some new idea must have come along though, one that I hope is cleared up properly in Episode III. I don't remember ever looking forward to a movie as much as this, even TPM after the long long wait!

By the way, how could anyone who has watched AOTC think Dooku didn't know about the clones???? Strange......

Darth Barrister

07-24-2002, 09:41 PM

I thought that maybe it was Qui-gon under the instruction from Dooku.

My thoughts are that Qui-Gon may have died just prior to Dooku leaving the Jedi order and that the two of them, upset with the politics of the time and the impotence of the Jedi Council, decided to take efforts into their own hands (just in case. Qui-gon, as to not upset the "higher ups" on the counsel used the persona of Sifo-Dyas.

Dooku and/or Qui-gon may have had a premonition of the future and "saw" that the Republic was in need of an army.

So they secretly ordered it.

Maybe the death of Qui-gon is what motivated Dooku to leave the Jedi order and turn to what he thought was his only resolution to find peace for the republic, ie. the darkside.

The best laid plans of mice and men...

Mann

07-24-2002, 10:33 PM

this is something out of left field, but what if Sifo-dyas is another sith, something that wasn't expected because the Jedi always think there are two. Now what if he joined Sidious and he reveals himslef to Yoda at the cave? He could die there and emmit the Dark Side energy.

Jedi Ulic

07-25-2002, 09:41 AM

[Palpatine/Sidious seems to be a clone afficianado, so why not make a clone of himself? The only hitch to this logic is that the Kaminoans would know about it. And there was no foreshadowing that would suggest that they're keeping such a huge secret.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

]

Wouldn't be too difficult for Sidious to 'encourage' the Kaminoans to forget that particular order?

CieSharp

07-25-2002, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Jedi Ulic@July 25 2002 - 08:41

{{Wouldn't be too difficult for Sidious to 'encourage' the Kaminoans to forget that particular order? }}

Not really. If you read the Kaminoan file on starwars.com databank, you will see that the Kaminoans had a very strange view on ethics, and all they really wanted was money to pay for raw materials since Kamino fell victim to extreme global warming. They were an odd, desperate people. All Palpatine would have to do is slip them a few extra credits, and I'm sure it would be water under the bridge.

Brian

07-25-2002, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Darth Barrister@July 24 2002 - 20:41
Maybe the death of Qui-gon is what motivated Dooku to leave the Jedi order and turn to what he thought was his only resolution to find peace for the republic, ie. the darkside.
Well, to the Jedi, I am sure it was clear that Qui-Gon was killed by a Sith Lord. Why would Dooku join the Sith if they murdered his former Padawan? That just doesn't make sense.

Polunis

07-25-2002, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by O-B-GATES+July 25 2002 - 10:50--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(O-B-GATES @ July 25 2002 - 10:50)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Darth Barrister@July 24 2002 - 20:41
Maybe the death of Qui-gon is what motivated Dooku to leave the Jedi order and turn to what he thought was his only resolution to find peace for the republic, ie. the darkside.
Well, to the Jedi, I am sure it was clear that Qui-Gon was killed by a Sith Lord. Why would Dooku join the Sith if they murdered his former Padawan? That just doesn't make sense.[/b][/quote]
I concur; it doesn't make sense, and Count Dooku is not portrayed as a fool. Perhaps (and this is probably not likely) he is convinced by Palpatine that Qui-Gon was killed by an assassin hired by the Jedi; after all, Qui-Gon is not the most passive of Jedi. I am just trying to make sense of it, which I freely confess is difficult. Before I get flames for this idea, I need to put on my flame-retardant suit. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

*Puts on suit.*

Ah, much better. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

Jedi Ulic

07-25-2002, 01:43 PM

I was thinking 'encourage' as in making them forget using the dark side of the force. I'm sure Sidious is capable and we all know about his ethics.

Jedi_Man

07-25-2002, 06:04 PM

Sifo_Dyas is Count Dooku. In the Library when Obi_wan is looking for the planet the libarian told him about dooku leaving the jedi order 9 to 10 years ago about the time the clones where order why else would that needed to be said in the film.. As I remember no one (Jedi) ever said they knew a sifo-dyas. So Dooku could have went there said his name was sifo-dyas and he was a jedi the Kaminos would never have known any better, paid for the clones and left..

borgmatrix

07-25-2002, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Jedi_Man@July 25 2002 - 17:04
As I remember no one (Jedi) ever said they knew a sifo-dyas. *
No, Sifo-dyas was a known Jedi. Obi-wan told the cloners that "Master Sifo-dyas was killed almost 10 years ago."

Darth Barrister

07-25-2002, 07:40 PM

We realy don't know at what time Dooku became a Sith Lord. We know that he left the order some ten years prior but that is all.

He may have seen the Jedi Order as failing in its duties. The death of Qui-gon could have been an impetus for him to finally leave the order. From what I understand, Dooku and Qui-gon were always a little out of line with the Jedi. Maybe they foresaw something that motivated them to order the clones.

He may have began to explore the dark side, and before he knows it, he becomes enveloped by it. (this theoretically could take years)

I have a feeling this is going to happen to Anakin. I don't think he consciously becomes a Sith Lord, he is transformed into one because of the "power of the dark side". It will overwhelm him.

Also, I feel that Dooku was sincere when he invited OB1 to join him. The Sith are not very trusting of each other and Dooku's aspirations may have been to be seen as the one "saving" the galaxy far far away. I don't think there is any love lost between Dooku and Sidious.

I do think that George has given us a great mystery. I just hope the answer isn't that the Kaminoans couldn't pronounce Sidious properly.

This goes back to my "left field" theory that Qui-gon ordered the clones. He was always kind of a rebel. Any thoughts?

Darth Barrister

07-25-2002, 07:42 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Well, to the Jedi, I am sure it was clear that Qui-Gon was killed by a Sith Lord. Why would Dooku join the Sith if they murdered his former Padawan? That just doesn't make sense.
[/b][/quote]

But he did join the Sith, even after they killed his Padawan.

Brian

07-25-2002, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Polunis@July 25 2002 - 12:01
I concur; it doesn't make sense, and Count Dooku is not portrayed as a fool. *Perhaps (and this is probably not likely) he is convinced by Palpatine that Qui-Gon was killed by an assassin hired by the Jedi; after all, Qui-Gon is not the most passive of Jedi. *I am just trying to make sense of it, which I freely confess is difficult. *Before I get flames for this idea, I need to put on my flame-retardant suit. :p

*Puts on suit.*

Ah, much better. :lol:
*Pulls out flame thrower.*

Flames Polinus' idea. *Wait, it's flame retardant! *

*Pulls out liquid hot mag-ma gun.*

See if you can retard that!

I think Dooku was studying the ways of the Sith before he left the Jedi Order (kind of like Chistopher Lee's other charater, Sauraman in LOTR). *His studies and investigations lead to Sidious or after hearing the TF stories of Sidious, he go curious and sought him out (this one is hard to explain). *I don't think Dooku is weak minded enough to just be seduced. *He wanted to be where he was as a Sith Lord. *They stand against Jedi, they are powerful, and Sidious had done a lot of the work to get the Republic in chaos. *He probaby felt like he was stepping into an ideal situation. *Maybe, Dooku plans to over-take Sidious once the time is right. *Sidious didn't raise Dooku from youth like he did Darth Maul so there may not be complete trust b/n Dooku and Sidious. *Dooku may think he is doing what's best and setting himself up for absolute rule, but Sidious is just using him as a pawn, knowing that his servant is going to betray him.

That was my first time speculating since June. *Let the reaming begin.

Brian

07-25-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Darth Barrister@July 25 2002 - 18:42
But he did join the Sith, even after they killed his Padawan.
You miss understood. *I was saying, Dooku didn't just join the Sith because Qui-Gon was killed. *It would seem that he would want to destroy the Sith for Killing his former Padawan, not join them. *This doesn't seem to be the case, so the only logical explaination is he joined to gain power for himself. *The Jedi codes were not allowing him to gain the power that the Sith could possibly provide. *I don't think Dooku is concerned with peace and resolution, he just wants to be the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time and is going about acheiving it by any-means-necessary.

Brian

07-25-2002, 08:16 PM

BTW, Dooku just impersonated Sifo-Dyas to order the clone army. Sifo convienetly died right before all of the events leading to the Clone War began. It was easy for Dooku to do. He has a light saber, and who are the Kimenoaens to say he wasn't Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas? The don't know nor care of the difference.

Also, the link is there because Jango Fett was hired by Tyranus to be the clone template. Jango obviously knew he was working for Dooku on Geonosis and his clones were to fight against the Droid Army. I think Jango knew he was Dooku and Tyranus. Just not that he was working for Darth Sidious and the Sith.

Darth Barrister

07-25-2002, 09:26 PM

I don't know why, but I am of the belief that Dooku either has or had what he believed to be a noble purpose for leaving the Jedi Order and eventually becoming a Sith.

Also, I think that his thinking was paralleled by Qui-gon, to a degree.

Dooku is motivated by a "bigger picture" and to acheive his goals he sees the darkside as his vehicle.

He may have been sincere to want to rid the senate of the sith. (Could be that he just wanted it for himself, though).

I also think that Qui-gon will tie in with Dooku somehow in Ep. III.

Also, if you really think about it, how important is it really as to the true identity of Sifo-dyas. It's not serious enough of a plot point to affect the fall of Anakin and the rise of Darth Vader. It could be answered by GL in one line of the movie

"I placed the order for the clones"

and there it is mystery solved. Space epic continues...

Polunis

07-26-2002, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by O-B-GATES+July 25 2002 - 18:53--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(O-B-GATES @ July 25 2002 - 18:53)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Polunis@July 25 2002 - 12:01
I concur; it doesn't make sense, and Count Dooku is not portrayed as a fool. Perhaps (and this is probably not likely) he is convinced by Palpatine that Qui-Gon was killed by an assassin hired by the Jedi; after all, Qui-Gon is not the most passive of Jedi. I am just trying to make sense of it, which I freely confess is difficult. Before I get flames for this idea, I need to put on my flame-retardant suit. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

*Puts on suit.*

Ah, much better. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif
*Pulls out flame thrower.*

Flames Polinus' idea. Wait, it's flame retardant!

*Pulls out liquid hot mag-ma gun.*

See if you can retard that!

I think Dooku was studying the ways of the Sith before he left the Jedi Order (kind of like Chistopher Lee's other charater, Sauraman in LOTR). His studies and investigations lead to Sidious or after hearing the TF stories of Sidious, he go curious and sought him out (this one is hard to explain). I don't think Dooku is weak minded enough to just be seduced. He wanted to be where he was as a Sith Lord. They stand against Jedi, they are powerful, and Sidious had done a lot of the work to get the Republic in chaos. He probaby felt like he was stepping into an ideal situation. Maybe, Dooku plans to over-take Sidious once the time is right. Sidious didn't raise Dooku from youth like he did Darth Maul so there may not be complete trust b/n Dooku and Sidious. Dooku may think he is doing what's best and setting himself up for absolute rule, but Sidious is just using him as a pawn, knowing that his servant is going to betray him.

That was my first time speculating since June. Let the reaming begin.[/b][/quote]
Your infernal skills are no match for my suit. Muhhahahahahahahahaaaa

Anyway, I do think you are on to something there. He did want his own power, but I think it was more to supplant a corrupt Senate with his own rule. That is where the conflict comes in between the Master and the Apprentice. He probably didn't like the way the Jedi were going either.

BTW, I did find a similar statement concerning Count Dooku's dabbling, perhaps it is on the Official Site. You are correct concerning the parallels between Saruman and Count Dooku. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

Jedi_Man

07-26-2002, 11:27 AM

Just because Obi Said that syfo-dyas died ten years ago doesnt mean he knew him he lied to the cloners to get more info. When he asked the council if they knew of a jedi named syfo-dyas they said no if he knew syfo-days why would he ask the concil and if the concil know of him too why did they say NO. Count dooku could have been turning to the dark side before he left the jedi order and when he turned he left the jedi order logical reason for leaving huh( he is no longer a jedi) Count Dooku is the person who ordered the clones. Why else did the libarian tell Obi about Dooku so it falls in place...

Jedi_Man

07-26-2002, 11:33 AM

Again people There was never a Syfo-Dyas never. NO jedi knows who is is its a name made up for the cloners. that cannot link them to anyone. I have already said it The Council has never heard of this Jedi SO THAT MEANS THERE IS NO JEDI NAMED THAT>.

Jedi_Man

07-26-2002, 11:36 AM

One more clue from the scripts of AOTC

YODA and MACE WINDU listen as a hologram of OBI-WAN stands between them broadcasting the massage. The singnal is very weak, the image fades in and out.

OBI-WAN (V.O.)
...I've never heard of a Jedi
called Sido-Dyas, have you, Master?

MACE WINDU
No. Whoever placed that order was
not a Jedi, I can assure you.

OBI-WAN (V.O.)
I have a strong feeling that this
bounty hunter is the assassin
we're looking for.

YODA
Who he is working for... discover
that, you must.

OBI-WAN (V.O.)
I will, Master, and I will also
find out more about this clone
army... May The Force...

Mann

07-26-2002, 01:09 PM

The movie says that Obi-Wan said that he remembers Sifo-Dyas being killed 10 years ago. The original script had it that there was no Sio-Dyas, but Lucas changed it. The movies count, not the scripts.

Seminole Jedi

07-29-2002, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Padiwan@May 19 2002 - 03:37
Two things:
1) Sidious/Palpatine couldn't be Dyas because Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, etc knows what Dyas looks like and they have seen Palpatine.
2) Dooku can't be Dyas because in AOTC he expressed that he didnt know where the Republic came up with the army so fast, impling he didnt know about the droids.
.....the only conclusion that I can think of is that Dyas really did die and someone (Sidious/Palpatine) pretended to be to be him on Kimeno (spell????).
"Two things:
1) Sidious/Palpatine couldn't be Dyas because Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, etc knows what Dyas looks like and they have seen Palpatine."

True, but we learn that the cloners can clone-to-order. Sidious could make a clone of himself and have it look like Palpatine.

"2) Dooku can't be Dyas because in AOTC he expressed that he didnt know where the Republic came up with the army so fast, impling he didnt know about the droids.
.....the only conclusion that I can think of is that Dyas really did die and someone (Sidious/Palpatine) pretended to be to be him on Kimeno (spell????)."

That's probably right. It's simple and SW is a simple story.

borgmatrix

07-30-2002, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Seminole Jedi@July 29 2002 - 21:59
"2) Dooku can't be Dyas because in AOTC he expressed that he didnt know where the Republic came up with the army so fast, impling he didnt know about the droids.
.....the only conclusion that I can think of is that Dyas really did die and someone (Sidious/Palpatine) pretended to be to be him on Kimeno (spell????)."

That's probably right. *It's simple and SW is a simple story.
But Dooku did know about the clone army. *He feigned surprise before the TF and other Separatists so as not to expose himself. *Remember, Dooku is the Sith Lord Tyrannus, and we know Tyrannus contacted Jango to serve as the source for the army. *My feeling is that Dooku was the one that impersonated Sifo-Dyas.

STar war spUNK

07-30-2002, 12:07 PM

here is my theory. *well actually, one of my many theories. *but this is the one why i think qui-gon is sifo-dyas (er... syfo-dyas.... uh... syfo-dias? UGH YOU KNOW WHO I AM TALKING ABOUT)

in the beginning of tpm, obi-wan says that he senses something... elsewhere... elusive, but qui-gon says focus on the here and now where it belongs. *qui-gon needed to distract his padawan or he might sense what was going on! *(haha um...)

qui-gon died 10 years before aotc. *originally, darth sidious told qui-gon about the clone army and how it would somehow help the republic, so he got qui-gon to place the order with a phony name, sifo-dyas (sidious or hwatever) and darth sidious after the order was placed, hired darth maul to kill qui-gon jinn because sidious did not need him anymore or something. *so sidious had told qui-gon to place an order for the clones, since he was not a jedi master. *but qui-gon was. *that is also why in the trilogy, obi-wan to yoda as his master rather than qui-gon because of what qui-gon did.

ugh no this is all wrong!!! * i do not remember what i had to say. *ugh.

Lonesabre

07-30-2002, 02:39 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> that is also why in the trilogy, obi-wan to yoda as his master rather than qui-gon because of what qui-gon did.
[/b][/quote]

Yeah right I was wondering that. Obi-Wan ALWAYS refers to Yoda as his master. Maybe because Qui-Gon is revealed as a traiter, Obi-Wan loses his faith in Qui-Gon and never mentions him again.

But, another idea about this might be that George will go back and replace Yodas name with Qui-Gons if he goes back AGAIN and changes the OT. I hope not though.

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STar war spUNK

07-30-2002, 02:46 PM

whoops i forgot to put the word "refer" in there. oh well you get what i mean i suppose. i don't think that george lucas will change how obi-wan says yoda is his master to qui-gon, because in the cave when luke is talking to yoda, obi-wan says... was i any different when you taught me? would they just take out that scene? or what?

Lonesabre

07-30-2002, 02:58 PM

Yeah right. Straying off subject a little, I know George might have to tweak little sections of the OT to make the six films flow better but chopping and changing whole scenes??? I hope not.

So Qui-Gon as a traiter then eh? I have thought it for a long while but then it sounds that he is trying to protect Anakin when Yoda hears his voice whilst meditating....

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Mann

07-30-2002, 04:53 PM

He never says Yoda actually taught him, he instructed him. Remember in AotC with the group of little kids with lightsabers? they are being Instructed. Padawans are taken when they are in their teens.

Qui-Gon isn't a bad guy, the council would have seen it. they were reading his mind in the council room "revealed your opinion is" If he was Sifo-Dyas in disguise, they would have seen it.

sbaxter

07-30-2002, 06:11 PM

>He never says Yoda actually taught him, he instructed him.

Semantics. The two words mean the same thing in this context.

>Remember in AotC with the group of little kids with lightsabers? they are being Instructed. Padawans are taken when they are in their teens.

Huh? Do you mean that they are selected by a Jedi Master to become that master's padawan?

Qui-Gon isn't a bad guy, the council would have seen it. they were reading his mind in the council room "revealed your opinion is"

I think this is correct. I do not believe that Qui-Gon will turn out to have been an evil character. It is possible he was manipulated into doing things by Sidious/Palpatine, but that isn't the same thing.

>If he was Sifo-Dyas in disguise, they would have seen it.

I realize the older scripts contain references to the idea that no one had heard of a Jedi named Sifo Dyas, and that this was changed in the shooting script. From this I conclude:

1. The actual role/identity of Sifo Dyas is not of critical importance to the story; if it were, changing it would have likely meant larger changes to other aspects of the story.

2. Lucas changed it from a mention that would immediately allow the audience to conclude that one of the Sith (or someone acting as a agent of the Sith) was responsible for ordering the clones to one that made a mystery out of the whole thing. He did this to heighten the dramatic effect.

3. The true identity of the one who ordered the clones hasn't changed between script where no one had heard of Sifo Dyas to the one where he was known to have been a Jedi now believed deceased.

4. If the clones were ordered via hologram communique, then it could have been anyone who ordered them. However, one could easily surmise that a specially-designed clone army, the highest quality yet devised by the Kaminoans, with numbers as high as were quoted (what _were_ the numbers of troops given, by the way?), would be very expensive. Also, the Kaminoans appear to think that everything is above-board and perfectly legal. Therefore, it is reasonably likely that the clones were ordered by someone who, at the very least, presented himself as Sifo Dyas and actually traveled to Kamino to do so. As an analogy, consider the following: Florida's Capitol building is just a few blocks from here. If I called the Pizza Hut down the street and said I wanted to order 200 large pizzas for a state dinner, do you think they'd just go ahead with the order and not find out I was yanking their chains until they strolled into the building? Granted, they may have been paid upon order, but it still seems likely that someone came to Kamino to order the clones. If that _is_ the case, then I'd suspect that whoever it was could at least pass himself off as a Jedi, even if someone whipped out a lightsaber and challenged him. I wouldn't go around telling people I was a Jedi unless I could do Jedi tricks.

We also know that Jango Fett came by his part in this through Tyrannus, who is also Count Dooku, unless Jango was either lying about that or had been misled. I'm guessing that he had been instructed to drop that name to any Jedi who might show up asking questions, for the same reason Dooku later told Obi-Wan part of the truth about Sidious (the reason for which, I'm betting, was to get the Jedi to move against Palpatine too soon, i.e, at a point when they don't have enough evidence to show he's a wicked old coot).

From all that, my working theory is that Dooku ordered the clones. If so, he impersonated Sifo Dyas to do so. Another possibility I'd regard as real is that Sifo Dyas actually did order the clones (as a secret mission for Palpatine, most likely) sometime after he mysteriously disappeared and had been reported missing, presumed dead to the Jedi -- and he was later really killed, probably by Dooku. If this is the case, we can conclude that the earlier reports of his death received by the Jedi Council were considered questionable, and that the look between Windu and Yoda meant "See, we knew there was something fishy about that."

One other possibility is that "Sifo Dyas" is a name used by the Jedi on secret missions, known as such only by the council. That way, if word came to the the Jedi that "Master Sifo Dyas reports he needs x," the Jedi would instantly know something was up. If so, then the look referenced above could mean "Someone knows way too much about us and our secrets." The information could have come to Sidious via Dooku. Further then, the use of the name would be a sort of deliberate taunt to the Jedi. Sidious wants the Jedi on his trail because he _wants_ them suspicious -- but he wants to control just how strong their suspicions are, so that he can get them to jump too soon.

Qapla'

SSB