EUDF Practice Range

[Soontir Solo]

EUDF members attention! This is the official simulation thread for members of the EUDF. The purpose of this thread is to help prepare and train EUDF members to combat Expanded Universe Bashing. In this thread individuals will post practice bashes that members post defenses to. Promotions up to the rank of Captain can be awarded for activity in the Practice Range. Participation in the Practice ensures a promotion to Flight Officer after 4 months.

Anyone wishing to volunteer to be the EU Basher for awhile should contact TuskenRaider1 or a squadron leader to make the necessary arrangements.

May the Force be with you!

[Soontir Solo]

I figured I would start the new thread with a general bash.



BASH:

I can't stand the EU. It is full of a bunch of crap like clones of everybody and reincarations of Palpatine, a new Super Weapon every month, and Jedi Hutts. It isn't Star Wars. It has no place even being considered Star Wars. I would regard the EU as a deformed version of Star Wars.

[Kam Solusar]

Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but why so hostile against something that many, many people get so much enjoyment out of? The EU is a great way to fill the gaps between movies, and keep us all in a good fix of SW material. Sure, some of it is deriviative, and some of it is just plain bad, but all the good rousing stuff is great to me.

[Ningen]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 30 2005, 04:36 PM
I can't stand the EU. It is full of a bunch of crap like clones of everybody and reincarations of Palpatine, a new Super Weapon every month, and Jedi Hutts. It isn't Star Wars. It has no place even being considered Star Wars. I would regard the EU as a deformed version of Star Wars.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

Personal opinions aside, the Expanded Universe adds to the Star Wars Universe. Sure, not every writer does the best job with their appointed task, but that's no reason to put down the entire EU. A lot of authors do a really great job. We all love the movies, and we all know they come straight from Lucas' grey matter, but the movies only give us so much. I enjoy coming up with scenarios and new adventures for some of my favourite characters as much as the next guy, but, frankly, it's a lot more exciting for me to see officially licensed material being put out. If Lucas is ok with all of it, then why isn't everyone else?

[Soontir Solo]

Originally posted by Ningen+Mar 30 2005, 11:47 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ningen @ Mar 30 2005, 11:47 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Soontir Solo@Mar 30 2005, 04:36 PM
I can't stand the EU. It is full of a bunch of crap like clones of everybody and reincarations of Palpatine, a new Super Weapon every month, and Jedi Hutts. It isn't Star Wars. It has no place even being considered Star Wars. I would regard the EU as a deformed version of Star Wars.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

Personal opinions aside, the Expanded Universe adds to the Star Wars Universe. Sure, not every writer does the best job with their appointed task, but that's no reason to put down the entire EU. A lot of authors do a really great job. We all love the movies, and we all know they come straight from Lucas' grey matter, but the movies only give us so much. I enjoy coming up with scenarios and new adventures for some of my favourite characters as much as the next guy, but, frankly, it's a lot more exciting for me to see officially licensed material being put out. If Lucas is ok with all of it, then why isn't everyone else?
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]


Lucas doesn't give a CRAP about EU. He just does it for the money it puts in his pocket. He knows it isn't real Star Wars. That is why he lets it all come out with all of its contradictions and stupid story lines.

[Ningen]

If that's true, then why bother signing off on it? The money's going to go in his pocket regardless. If he truly didn't care, I highly doubt he'd look over EU material and sign off on it. He's got underlings to do those sorts of things. The fact is, neither you or I can say how Lucas really feels about the EU. All we know is that he signs off on the stuff and gives it his blessing. Based solely on those actions, we can only assume that he feels it is canon and adds to the Star Wars Universe in a positive way.

[BenRieekan]

We know that the Lucas vs. EU argument is not as clear cut as many bashers would like to think.

Lucas doesn't entirely dislike the EU, he just wouldn't do things the same way if it was up to him. The fact is the EU DOES feed back into the movies, in ways in which most people tend to forget. Where did most of the alien species names come from? The EU (in particular the RPG). In the OT most aliens were refered to by silly nicknames, eg Squidhead, and yet now in the PT even in the script you'll get the actual EU alien name, in this case Quarren.

If Lucas disliked the EU so much, he wouldn't let it happen with as much freedom. Every writer/artist/whatever would be given a more strict stylistic brief and told to stay in line. But that's not what the EU is about, it's a shared world now and it should be allowed to grow in new and interesting ways that don't come from George Lucas. He might have invented the world, and still hold the authoritative voice (and currently a monopoly of control over filmed forays into his world), but he's not afraid to let it grow beyond him, even when it is a big fat mistake (Holiday Special anyone? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif ). He is prepared to let Star Wars out into the big bad creative world so that maybe, just maybe, it can pleasantly surprise him (Aayla Secura being the best example of a little piece of the EU that made him smile).

Take the good with the bad, you don't have to accept the whole EU, but the concept of there being an EU is a good one, and if only 10% (or even 5%) of it is any good, it still enriches my enjoyment of Star Wars by fleshing out the things seen onscreen. It doesn't have to all fit into one big chronology either for my taste, because i pick and choose what i believe 'fits' anyway (meaning i ignore what is in my opinion the worst of the EU), but i'm happy for people to try and fit all of it, because that's just something that we fans get excited about and do.

Ok, point long since made and wandered from... Wraith 12 signing off.

(Phew! Long post!)

Ben

[TuskenRaider1]

Id have to agree with Ben. There is something to be said about expanding on a characters background and creating and detailing the universe that the movies happen in. You dont have to like each novel. Though a big fan personally, there are some I wont pick up ever again, but there are other books/comics/etc that have enhanced the overall story arc.

Look at the clone wars for example. Lucas has always put considerable stock in the idea that the Clone Wars were crucial to forming the Galactic Empire and bringing about the end of the Old Republic, but its too much story to tell in a 2 hour movie. In light of this fact, Lucas decided to elaborate on the detailed battles and politics of the clone wars in EU format. Again, you dont have to enjoy every authors perspective on the saga, but the little pieces add to the bigger whole. If youve read the books/comics/etc for the Clone Wars period, you understand the hardships that Obi-wan and others discuss in the films about that time. You care more about Alderaan and the loss of people like Bail Organa. You realize the bravery of Mon Mothma, and why she can address the Rebels with the air of dignity she portrays in Return of the Jedi. Lucas was kind enough to allow others to explore his creations, and signs off on the general arcs, and general ideas, not specific plot points.

If you need a further example that Lucas actually cares about the EU, look to the NJO. In it, the loss of main character is approved by Lucas, and the loss of a major EU character (I dont want to spoil it if you havent finished the series) is also decided by Lucas. He made a change over which character was to be killed, in contrast to the stories original designers, and took a direct hand in the plotting the course of the story arc. Thats a lot of effort to put into something one doesnt care about. Was he concerned that they might mess with his creation, sure, but the fact that he has allowed the EU to be developed in story format that maintains (with some discrepencies) a generally consistant story arc shows that LFL respects the endevour enough not to necessarily blow it off as a pure money scheme.

The EU adds to the films, creating back stories and taking the characters that we love to new places and further developing their stories. Reading about Luke rebuilding the Jedi, after now reading and watching how the Emperor and Vader took them down is a continuing of the arc, and follows the highs and lows that one would expect from such a saga. Give it another look, avoid those authors or comics or games or shows you dont like, but I wouldnt discount the enterprise as a whole. It has added to the enjoyment of SW fans the world over, and will continue to do so...

Rogue Six out.....

[Kam Solusar]

Not to mention that Lucas worked with Zahn a bit on the Thrawn Trilogy, since that was such a big deal when it was being written, the first post RotJ material, yay! The most famous instance is that Lucas gave him descriptions of what the capital planet would be like, but Zahn named it, and named it Coruscant. Lucas must have liked it, because you know by now what the capital planet is named in the source material as well. So, I'd have to think with that very glaring example of Lucas borrowing from the EU himself that he cares about it beyond the money.

[Galahad_Skywalker]

All of these are very great points, so it's difficult to say anything that hasn't been said.

One example of the EU finding its way into the movies is Boba Fett's name. In ESB, he is referred to as "bounty hunter" the whole way through. True he is named in the Holiday Special, which preceded ESB, but still, the Holiday Special is EU, and Boba Fett finally was called by name in ROTJ.

As for the Clone Wars...the way they've been handled in multiple mediums has infinitely enhanced my enjoyment of the prequels. Telling a story through a number of mediums is usually tricky (the Matrix didn't succeed too well in this respect, in my opinion), but LucasArts has handled it very, very well, giving immense depth to what we see on screen. The Clone Wars Microseries tells the story in between Episodes II and III, with very little pause from the non-stop action that keeps viewers moving from cliffhanger to cliffhanger. And a number of talented authors like Matthew Stover have written superb examples of what the EU should be. Shatterpoint by Stover explored Mace Windu's character, proving that he's the Samuel L. Jackson type of character that many of us want him to be. Shatterpoint is also so well written that it was capable of affecting the reader emotionally in its intensity.

There is plenty of sub-par material in the EU; I'll grant that. But the stuff that is good can provide a Star Wars fix without having to throw in one of the DVDs, and can answer the many questions that the movies leave us with, not to mention simply transporting us to the Star Wars galaxy, which is the best part.

Man, what is it with all of us and our long posts? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Sam Kenobi]

As already stated above, there are two main reasons why I enjoy the EU.

The name Coruscant, and Aayla Secura.

If Lucas didn't care, he wouldn't have used either.

Continuity issues for the older stuff are to be expected.

A nice short post. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Soontir Solo]

Love all the particpation everyone. Awesome!

Ningen: No we don't have to think Lucas considers it canon. If he considered it canon then it wouldn't contain a continuity error on every line!

BenRieekan: So you have just said Lucas would do it differently himself. Is Star Wars not LUCAS'S GALAXY! That is my whole point! It isn't Star Wars because it isn't what LUCAS would do! You say if he disliked the EU so much he wouldn't let it have so much freedom. I think he lets it have so much freedom because it is so bad so at least this way he can distance himself from it more. Plus if he liked EU he would keep tighter restrictions on it. The fact that he doesn't proves the EU is garbage!

TuskenRaider1: You say lets look at the Clone Wars. Ok lets do that. In The Thrawn Trilogy it says the Clone Wars happened 50 years ago, when we know that they happened only 20-25 years before The Thrawn Trilogy! I mean come on! 25 years is a huge freaking gap you know! The fact that Lucas would allow this proves he doesn't care. And you are totally overstating Lucas' role in the NJO. He simply said Kill Anakin don't kill Jacen. Big Deal! You act like he wrote the series himself! And dont' even get me started on the NJO. Killing Chewbaca because a damn moon falls on him. Give me a Break!

Galahad_Skywalker: I don't consider the Holiday Special EU firstoff. Secondly Stover is a terrible writer. He turned Mace Windu into a weakm, pathetic Jedi always wanting to go to the Dark Side. He gets beat in combat by some Jungle man. This is the 2nd most powerful Jedi and he gets beat by a stupid Jungle guy? Please!!!!!!!!!!

But I do agree with you that there is plenty of sub-par Eu out there........like all of it.




Notice I am being one of those EU Basher's that is very sarcastic right now.

[Soontir Solo]

Originally posted by Kam Solusar@Mar 31 2005, 10:31 AM
Not to mention that Lucas worked with Zahn a bit on the Thrawn Trilogy, since that was such a big deal when it was being written, the first post RotJ material, yay! The most famous instance is that Lucas gave him descriptions of what the capital planet would be like, but Zahn named it, and named it Coruscant. Lucas must have liked it, because you know by now what the capital planet is named in the source material as well. So, I'd have to think with that very glaring example of Lucas borrowing from the EU himself that he cares about it beyond the money.
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He obviously didn't work close enough with him if he got the time of the Clone Wars off by 25 years!

[Sam Kenobi]

None for me . . . is that good?

[Soontir Solo]

Originally posted by Sam Kenobi@Mar 31 2005, 06:49 PM
As already stated above, there are two main reasons why I enjoy the EU.

The name Coruscant, and Aayla Secura.

If Lucas didn't care, he wouldn't have used either.

Continuity issues for the older stuff are to be expected.

A nice short post. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



The name Coruscant came from Lucas, not EU. Aayla Secura's role in the movie will probably last a whole 1 second.

Continuity issues shouldn't happen. They do because the EU sucks and Lucas doesnt' care about it.

[Sam Kenobi]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 31 2005, 10:02 PM
The name Coruscant came from Lucas, not EU. Aayla Secura's role in the movie will probably last a whole 1 second.

Continuity issues shouldn't happen. They do because the EU sucks and Lucas doesnt' care about it.
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The concept of Coruscant was Lucas's, but the name itself is from Zahn.

Databank - Locations - Coruscant (http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/?id=bts)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The earliest incarnation of Coruscant appeared in the rough draft scripts of Star Wars, when the Imperial capital world was known as Alderaan. Subsequent rewrites briefly changed its name to Granicus before dropping it from the A New Hope storyline altogether.
The Imperial capital world was resurrected in the draft scripts for Return of the Jedi, this time as Had Abbadon. The script described a city-covered planet plagued by pollution and home to the Emperor's throne. Practical considerations of realizing this planet on screen, as well as the evolving storyline of Episode VI, resulted in the capital world again being abandoned.

Author Timothy Zahn gave Coruscant its name in his 1991 novel, Heir to the Empire. When it came time to finally unveil the galactic capital on the big screen in the revamped ending of the Return of the Jedi Special Edition release, Lucas adopted the name Coruscant. [/b][/quote]

From what I gather, Aayla will have a much bigger role in RotS.

And you can't expect everything to be perfect. The only unexusable continuity errors in my opinion arrose with Season III of the Clone Wars. If Lucas didn't care, the entire EU would be like that.

[Kam Solusar]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo+Mar 31 2005, 09:50 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soontir Solo @ Mar 31 2005, 09:50 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kam Solusar@Mar 31 2005, 10:31 AM
Not to mention that Lucas worked with Zahn a bit on the Thrawn Trilogy, since that was such a big deal when it was being written, the first post RotJ material, yay! The most famous instance is that Lucas gave him descriptions of what the capital planet would be like, but Zahn named it, and named it Coruscant. Lucas must have liked it, because you know by now what the capital planet is named in the source material as well. So, I'd have to think with that very glaring example of Lucas borrowing from the EU himself that he cares about it beyond the money.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



He obviously didn't work close enough with him if he got the time of the Clone Wars off by 25 years!
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]

Lucas might have changed his mind on when it actually happened. He's constantly updating his own story, which he has every right to do, so why not. Or, perhaps that was one of the things he didn't think would even be an issue, or even mentioned. Doesn't mean he didn't care, because he's gotten involved enough, and borrowed EU elements enough to show that he does care about the EU.

[Galahad_Skywalker]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Galahad_Skywalker: I don't consider the Holiday Special EU firstoff. Secondly Stover is a terrible writer. He turned Mace Windu into a weakm, pathetic Jedi always wanting to go to the Dark Side. He gets beat in combat by some Jungle man. This is the 2nd most powerful Jedi and he gets beat by a stupid Jungle guy? Please!!!!!!!!!!

But I do agree with you that there is plenty of sub-par Eu out there........like all of it.[/b][/quote]

Wow, you're relentless, Soontir... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Okay, let's cast aside the Holiday Special, which has the unfortunate reputation of being unclassifiable. Second, I just finished Shatterpoint, so I'm still excited over what I perceive as good writing, since I find a hard time getting into anything these days. Whether you find Stover a terrible writer or not is of course your opinion, but I'll share my views on Mace's portrayal in the novel. I don't find him weak or pathetic at all in the course of the book. Many times he runs into opponents, speaking to them and dealing with them in ways that make me recall Samuel L. Jackson's other characters in such films as Pulp Fiction. Mace does not want to go to the Dark Side, but is plagued by the temptation to succumb to it throughout, and this lure of the second most powerful Jedi further illustrates the struggle of Jedi to resist the Dark Side, something which we hear about in the movies, but very few Jedi actually are tempted onscreen. Now, I don't understand why Kar Vastor (the Jungle man) was so much more powerful than Mace in brute strength, but he did need a threatening adversary, lest he appear to simply be walking over any obstacles in his way.

The thing that really makes the EU valuable and worthwhile is that it is able to build upon references in the movies (like how easy Yoda and others claim it is to fall to the Dark Side), fleshing them out far more than a two-hour film treatment can. For example, I feel Samuel L. Jackson got little time to bring across the bad style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif aspects of his character onscreen in AOTC, something I really wanted to see. Thanks to the EU, I was able to sit down with a 400-page book that I found to be full of deadpan characterization of Mace Windu, and look forward to seeing him in action in ROTS, having had his character elaborated upon by Stover.

I encourage you to try it yourself. Pick out a character you enjoy from the movies, and then ask one of us for recommendations for books that build on that character. Give the book a try, and afterwards go back and watch one of the movies that features that character, and see if you better understand how he or she works in the context of the films.

[Sam Kenobi]

One could also say that you know quite a bit of EU for someone who hates the books. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Galahad_Skywalker]

What Sam said... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[BenRieekan]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 1 2005, 02:49 AM
BenRieekan: So you have just said Lucas would do it differently himself. Is Star Wars not LUCAS'S GALAXY! That is my whole point! It isn't Star Wars because it isn't what LUCAS would do! You say if he disliked the EU so much he wouldn't let it have so much freedom. I think he lets it have so much freedom because it is so bad so at least this way he can distance himself from it more. Plus if he liked EU he would keep tighter restrictions on it. The fact that he doesn't proves the EU is garbage!
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The point of Star Wars is that it's no longer Lucas's world... it's OUR world! Star Wars, like it or not, has gone down the shared world route. That's not opinion, that's fact. It's up to each individual fan to decide on their own what is or isn't cannon (there is of course an 'official' version, should you wish to take that approach). If your only entertainment derived from Star Wars comes from the movies (and the most related tie-ins), then fine, but personally i find that the EU is large enough and rich enough that there IS something for everyone... even a number of EU Bashers on these boards have admitted to liking the Clone Wars Cartoons for instance. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif

And Lucas isn't exactly distancing himself from the EU... only real fans have any idea of the behind the scences processes of what Lucas does and doesn't do in preparing the EU... and his name and company logos feature prominantly on every official product. How is putting "Lucas Liscencing" on everything distancing yourself?

And why would he keep tighter restrictions on the EU if he LIKED it? The point of a shared world is that it can go on to do things differently that would surprise the original creator. He'd tighten the restrictions if he really thought the quality was slipping.

Truth is, Lucas only avoided reading the EU for so long because he wanted to make absolutely certain he didn't accidently pick up someone else's idea for the PT... many artisits do this to avoid picking up influences and plaigerisng their colleagues... he wanted to do something original again so the fans could get what many of them (including the EU bashers in particular) wanted... Lucas's Vision back on the big screen. Lucas may start to dip his toes more into that EU water now he doesn't have to worry about his PT.

And i take offense at the comment "the EU is garbage"... it's definitely not garbage... what it is happens to be a mixed bag, admittedly, but all shared world science fiction/fantasy/space opera suffers from the same flaws when it comes to publishing... ignorant editors and publishers, who try to water down works based on their own idea of what sells, along with writers who are employed to write to brief and deadline rather than to their own muse. You can see the difference when you give someone free reign and an understanding editor.

Anyways, the EU does produce some great work along with the more mediocre 'filler'. Opinions may differ on which parts of the EU are the best, but that there is merit in some of it should not be in question! Have you read/watched/listened/played/seen/collected the entire EU? No? Thought not. Look around, you might be pleasantly surprised.

Wraith 12 out.

[TuskenRaider1]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>TuskenRaider1: You say lets look at the Clone Wars. Ok lets do that. In The Thrawn Trilogy it says the Clone Wars happened 50 years ago, when we know that they happened only 20-25 years before The Thrawn Trilogy! I mean come on! 25 years is a huge freaking gap you know! The fact that Lucas would allow this proves he doesn't care. And you are totally overstating Lucas' role in the NJO. He simply said Kill Anakin don't kill Jacen. Big Deal! You act like he wrote the series himself! And dont' even get me started on the NJO. Killing Chewbaca because a damn moon falls on him. Give me a Break! [/b][/quote]

So, the fact that a book published in the early 90s is referencing an event that Lucas in the PT a decade later decides is a different time is somehow an end all point? These things happen when you have a story arc that has been played with over the course of close to 30 years. Lets also remember that Lucas has had to tweak his story a little for Ep III in light of contradictions between Ep II and Ep IV, when he didnt realize or fully intend to actually do the full series in film format. Changes happen, and because of this, some continuity problems exist. I am hard pressed however to fund such an elaborated universe in any other pop culture format that has NO inconsistancies in its lore or story line.

As for the the NJO, Lucas's direction of who to take out completely changed not just the course of the remaining NJO novels, but likely the post-NJO EU as well. Anakin and Jacen were completely different types of characters that had distinct character development to that decidion point, and had to be slightly reworked to accomodate it, but frankly, that choice put even a stronger spin on events in the NJO post-SBS. I have no problems with Chewies death, and frankly, as previously stated, found it refreshing that they would risk some fan arguements over such a big move. Frankly, if Lucas didnt care, he wouldnt have let it go. He gets involved only to set boundries, and trusts the EU authors to take a new and fresh look at teh universe and how to expand it. Id agree with others, the EU is a mixed bag, but you pays your money, you takes your chances....but its worth taking a chance on what could be a fun new way to look at the characters you like in the films...

[Kam Solusar]

Looks like you might have forgotten something, TR. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[TuskenRaider1]

Sorry, in process of editing, I forgot to repost...all fixed now :oops:

[Soontir Solo]

Sam: The planet Coruscant came from Lucas, just because Zahn can put together some letters and Lucas likes it doesn't mean anything. And Aayla Secura's role will be minimal, as I said probably adding up to one whole second. The movie will be all about Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, and Palpatine. It won't be about stupid EU characters!

Kam: You think that maybe Lucas wouldn't even think it would be an issue? Are you kidding me? 25 years is a big freaking issue. clones grown in days is a pretty big issue when in the movies it shows it took years! Of course Lucas is updating his own story. The key would there is HIS. He obviously didn't consider Zahn's work to be HIS story, meaning Star Wars.

Galahad: Mace Windu was pathetic in that novel. You act like it should be expected a Jedi of his stature should feel such emotions. If this was Anakin Skywalker it would be understandable, but this is most certainly not! We are talking about a Jedi second only to Yoda here. And everyother page he is thinking about doing something dark. This is not Mace Windu! And he loses to this Jungle man and you say you don't know why the Jungle man was so strong. Here is the thing.......in real Star Wars he wouldn't be able to beat Mace Windu. And I like all of the movie characters except Jar Jar, but I will be not be indulging myself in reading abotu them in deformed versions of Star Wars.

Ben: No, it is not our world. Star Wars is Lucas's world. It is something that has be become lost upon EU writers. They have turned Star Wars into a freak show. Yes he allows the logo to go on the books, and I'll tell why............money. Pure and simple. Lucas didn't not read teh EU because he was afraid he would pick up ideas for the PT from the authors........he didn't read it because it isn't Star Wars. It isn't part of his universe. And as for the amount of EU I have come in contact with...........I can assure you that amount is quite large.

Tusken: Your opinion on the inconsistencies is noted, but teh 25 years isn't the only error. The TTT view of clones being made so fast is a lie, and view that creatures exist who can create a bubble where the force doesn't exist is a lie, the thought that the Republic had a fleet of Dreadnaughts 200 strong is a lie since we know the Republic didn't even create a military till the end of Episode 2. The whole TTT is a big freaking lie.




I'm out for the weekend now, have fun.

[Kam Solusar]

Of course, the whole "days to grow a clone" was actually a plot point, the clones weren't quite right. So in a way, without even intending to, Zahn wrote himself an out. Plus, in Zahns later writing, as I understand it, he's written himself another out, saying that the Spaarti cloning technology was wholly different to Kamino technology.

But even if it does directly contradict, which Lucas always maintened was his right to do, it doesn't stop them from being incredibly entertaining to a great many people.

[TuskenRaider1]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Tusken: Your opinion on the inconsistencies is noted, but teh 25 years isn't the only error. The TTT view of clones being made so fast is a lie, and view that creatures exist who can create a bubble where the force doesn't exist is a lie, the thought that the Republic had a fleet of Dreadnaughts 200 strong is a lie since we know the Republic didn't even create a military till the end of Episode 2. The whole TTT is a big freaking lie.[/b][/quote]

Zahn, as stated above, gives himself plenty of outs in his series. The plot devices, and the occasional plot point can be looked to as discrepencies in the continuity of the series, but to call teh series a lie overlooks the good that the series provided for the SW universe. In introducing Thrawn, the Chiss, Talon Karrde, Borsk Fey'lya and of course Mara Jade, Zahn set the stage for the EU. Coruscant was but one example of things that came out of the Zahn series. The majority of EU stories can in one sense or another be traced or highlighted with TTT Characters, story development and species/planets/situations. The clones were Spaarti and not Kamino, the dreadnaughts were looked at for a period of time (teh clone wars) that at the time of TTT publication, Lucas hadnt planned out in detail. The information, however, is somewhat irrelevant. The into of Garm bel Ibis, Borsks interference in Mil affairs, and Talon's continued character development were the true points of that plot device. As for the Ysalimari, what makes you think that things like that cant exist? There are untold number of exceptions to every biological rule in real life, so it can be expected that a science fiction novel will create a similar situation in a fictional universe. The Ysalimaris were interesting because they blunted the Jedis truest power, their connection to the force. You dont have to like it, but again, to call it a lie is a bit of a stretch. The author was given teh approval by LFL to write about an unexplored expanded universe in SW. His work has a multitute of fans and has served as teh basis for post-ROTJ work since.

[Kam Solusar]

And on the topic of midi-cholorians and ysalmari...if midi-chlorians exist, a creature that tunes a Jedi IN to the Force, what's wrong with a creature that does the opposite?

[Ningen]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 31 2005, 10:49 PM
Ningen: No we don't have to think Lucas considers it canon. If he considered it canon then it wouldn't contain a continuity error on every line!
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

Except the entire EU isn't like that. Continuity problems happen in anything. They're unavoidable. A single writer may make a continuity error on a story he himself crafted. It happens.

As for Lucas not caring, I don't see how you could possibly say that. As I've already said, if he didn't care, he wouldn't bother signing off on it. he's just let his underlings do that and profit from it as a result. Also, as others have mentioned, if he didn't care he wouldn't include things like Coruscant or Aayla Aecure in the films.

[Jediwan]

Soontir if you want help with anything just ask.

[Sam Kenobi]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 1 2005, 12:49 PM
Sam: The planet Coruscant came from Lucas, just because Zahn can put together some letters and Lucas likes it doesn't mean anything. And Aayla Secura's role will be minimal, as I said probably adding up to one whole second. The movie will be all about Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, and Palpatine. It won't be about stupid EU characters!
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


If your saying that putting letters together is nothing special, then look at all the characters in Star Wars. Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, Yoda, Palpatine, all of them. And the fact is that it was born in the EU. And while obviously she won't be the star of the movie (no pun intended), she certainly will have a bigger part.

[Master Shrive]

Wow - there has been a lot of action in here. Full credit to you SS for keeping up.

In terms of a reply...

I'd like to say that when a lot of the post NJO-EU came out, even GL was not 100% certain of the story line. He worked with Zahn to get TTT to fit what he thought the story was at that time. With a saga as big as this, and written out of continuality, its no wonder not every little thing fits together. But lets no get into a list of all the inconsistencies that could be found. Just remember that steps are been taken to fix them.

And I don't think it can be said that Star Wars is just GL's. I don't think GL would even say that. Why? Because if he really only wanted it to be his, he would never have let other people write about it and he would have never aproved the story lines of so much of the EU.



Anyway, I think everyone else has covered all aspects very well. Great work guys - keep it up.

[Soontir Solo]

Good job everyone. I must say I am impressed by how many people are involved.

Kam: The Kamino cloning people were the best clone masters in the galaxy! They were teh top notch! And you are telling me that Spaarti cloning can clone beings in days when it takes the Kaminoans years? Are you kidding me! That is just ridiculous. Lucas makes it clear in Episode 2 that the Kamino cloning scientists are the best there is. And it took them 10 years. So I highly doubt the smurf admiral can do it in days!

Tusken: You bring up all these new characters that you obviously think are great. Lets take a look at these characters for a second. Mara Jade.............the secret agent of Palpatine. Year right! And if she is so good she got stopped in ROTJ by a Hutt supposedly? She is a trained assasin but she couldn't keep up with Luke because a Hutt said no? And then all the sudden she can find Luke out in the middle of nowhere? Honestly Mara Jade should never have been created. The circumstances of where her character was in her life are just pathetic. Then you have Kaarde.........can anybody say rip off of Han and Lando? I sure can. Thrawn........like the Emperor would really have his top military commander be a smurf. Please! Then you have Bel Iblis.........yet for someone who supposedly created the alliance with Mon Mothma and Organa, why isn't he in the movies? He was a Senator who was with Mothma and Organa right? And he isn't even in any of the Clone Wars books either. Lucas obviously didn't care for his character. And Yslamari are EU abominations. The force is life.......so how can something create a bubble that takes away teh force? It is a paradox.

Ningen: Coruscant was a planet created before the EU used it! Just because he likes one name, out of the whole EU is nothing! And Secura is a minor character who will get hardly any screen time. Big Deal! And Lucas signs off on everything, even though he doesn't care, because he has too in order to get his share of the profits! He does own the company remember!

Sam: No she wont' have a big part, and no Coruscant was not born in the EU.

Shrive: The inconsistencies can't be fixed. The novels are out and abroad. You can't take them all back and change them. The inconsistencies are there and the EU sucks because of it! And he lets other people write stories for the money pure and simple.

[Ningen]

The fact remains that Lucas took the name Coruscant from the Expanded Universe and he liked Aayla Secura so much that he decided to put her on the big screen. He didn't create Aayla and she would have never existed had the EU not existed. Whether you like it or not, both came from the EU and are official Star Wars canon.

And you seem to be missing my point entirely regarding Lucas and his signing off on the EU. Let me try to explain it again. Lucas, being who he is, doesn't need to trouble himself by reviewing and then signing off on EU material. He can have others do that and still take the profits gained. He, however, does not do that. He signs off on the EU personally. If that isn't clear enough indication for you that he cares about the Expanded Universe, then I don't know what is.

[Master Shrive]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Kam: The Kamino cloning people were the best clone masters in the galaxy! They were teh top notch! And you are telling me that Spaarti cloning can clone beings in days when it takes the Kaminoans years? Are you kidding me! That is just ridiculous. Lucas makes it clear in Episode 2 that the Kamino cloning scientists are the best there is. And it took them 10 years. So I highly doubt the smurf admiral can do it in days![/b][/quote]

To have a crack at this one first...

The cloning techniques used in AOTC is very old by the time of TTT. There's about a 50 year gap - thats a long time. Technology moves along at a very fast pace, especially if enough research and money is put into it. Look at the real world and computers. 50 years ago, what's been done now wasn't even thought of. The SW's galaxcy is no different.

And what happened to the Kaminoans? They were at the front of cloning technology - but things change. I think its quite possible that the Empire shut them down (because they aren't human) and stole any usefull information to use else where. I don't see any problem with this story line.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Shrive: The inconsistencies can't be fixed. The novels are out and abroad. You can't take them all back and change them. The inconsistencies are there and the EU sucks because of it! And he lets other people write stories for the money pure and simple. [/b][/quote]

One of the greatest works of litirature, The Lord of the Rings, was still being edited by Tolkien right up until he passed away. Why? Because he wasn't happy with it and he saw inconsitencies. Sure, the SW's EU might not be considered on the same level by most people, but the fact remains people can go back and modify what has been written.

The way I see it, its no different to GL editing the movies here and there. eg: Greedo shooting first. It doesn't edit the story line in a major way, but it does make a differece. If GL can do it, I don't see why some of the EU authors can't.

[DarthSolo]

I hope soon to start jumping on as a co-basher with soontir if he'll have me. I've been impressed with what I've read!

[Sam Kenobi]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 3 2005, 04:59 PM
Sam: No she wont' have a big part, and no Coruscant was not born in the EU.<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I didn't say a big part, I said a bigger part. And if you know that for a fact, don't confirm it. Coruscant is half the offspring of Zahn, and half Lucas.

[BenRieekan]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 1 2005, 07:49 PM
No, it is not our world. Star Wars is Lucas's world. It is something that has be become lost upon EU writers. They have turned Star Wars into a freak show. Yes he allows the logo to go on the books, and I'll tell why............money. Pure and simple. Lucas didn't not read teh EU because he was afraid he would pick up ideas for the PT from the authors........he didn't read it because it isn't Star Wars. It isn't part of his universe. And as for the amount of EU I have come in contact with...........I can assure you that amount is quite large.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Lucas's motivation for maintaining the EU isn't money... i can tell you that much. The films are already the highest ever grossing movie series by themselves and with all the merchandising and collectibles since the 70s, i think he's pretty minted by now.

The EU exists because there is a demand, people want to keep Star Wars alive outside of the films and Lucas acknowledges this, that the story must go on in people's hearts and minds. Rather than write everything himself (which would slow down the whole process) Lucas has opened up the world to other authors... and he allows them relatively free reign to use the GFFA as they wish, because that's the best way to get good work out of writers (or any creative types). This has established Star Wars as a "shared world" - multiple authors writing in the same world and beginning to take an interest in a unified continuity. The latest novel lines have shown ever greater interest in this continuity, by being published in continuous series rather than all scattered through history (as the post Zahn trilogy EU was). If this isn't "shared world", i don't know what is. Star Wars is as much in the hands of these authors as anyone now.

And i agree with you to an extent about Lucas, just as he didn't want to constrain his authors, he didn't want to be constrained by them. He'll make whatever film he had in mind and the continuity (which is, lets face it, a fanboy matter) can be sorted out afterwards. As the original world builder Lucas has that right and his creativity demanded to not be tied down to what had already been said. (Best example: the origins of Boba Fett, and therefore Stormtroopers being Clones). The EU isn't part of his creative plans for the PT, but all the same the EU is still Star Wars.

That doesn't invalidate the EU however, it's just that the EU tended to try very hard to second guess what Lucas had in mind for the Clone Wars era (by this i mean what became the PT) and many references occured in the older novels which are by now false and very silly. That's just how things work, the joy of a shared world is that in context explanations will arise to explain it, and the chronology will straighten itself out.

The EU is a take it or leave it affair anyway, in whole and in part. If you don't like it, that's your choice. If you don't want to continue the adventures of Luke Skywalker, or see what happens before or between the films, fine. It doesn't invalidate the EU for everyone else who does have that curiosity and love for Star Wars. And if they don't like a certain novel, or comic or whatever, they don't have to include it in their 'EU', their ongoing tales, but it doesn't invalidate it for the next person. The EU exists, and lots of people do enjoy it, despite what i'll admitt is the mixed quality output it produces. I may not convince you to like the EU, but you have to accept that for some fans it's very important, just as for others collecting is, or for others costumes might be. Let your fellow fanboys be. We all love Star Wars, we just express it in different ways by being involved with different parts of the whole.

Phew... as you can see SS, i think i've made all the points i can and i'm falling back on the 'leave us alone, we're like you' arguement. Hope i did good though, looking forward to the next round!

Ben

[Kam Solusar]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 3 2005, 06:59 PM
Good job everyone. I must say I am impressed by how many people are involved.

Kam: The Kamino cloning people were the best clone masters in the galaxy! They were teh top notch! And you are telling me that Spaarti cloning can clone beings in days when it takes the Kaminoans years? Are you kidding me! That is just ridiculous. Lucas makes it clear in Episode 2 that the Kamino cloning scientists are the best there is. And it took them 10 years. So I highly doubt the smurf admiral can do it in days!

<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Who is to say the Kaminoans are still around? And even if they are, like there are never cheap knock off versions with not so good results of almost every technology. Or product for that matter.

All that aside, the fact that these clones are made in days is huge plot point. They aren't quite right. They mention that clones shouldn't be made this quickly.

[TuskenRaider1]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Tusken: You bring up all these new characters that you obviously think are great. Lets take a look at these characters for a second. Mara Jade.............the secret agent of Palpatine. Year right! And if she is so good she got stopped in ROTJ by a Hutt supposedly? She is a trained assasin but she couldn't keep up with Luke because a Hutt said no? And then all the sudden she can find Luke out in the middle of nowhere? Honestly Mara Jade should never have been created. The circumstances of where her character was in her life are just pathetic. Then you have Kaarde.........can anybody say rip off of Han and Lando? I sure can. Thrawn........like the Emperor would really have his top military commander be a smurf. Please! Then you have Bel Iblis.........yet for someone who supposedly created the alliance with Mon Mothma and Organa, why isn't he in the movies? He was a Senator who was with Mothma and Organa right? And he isn't even in any of the Clone Wars books either. Lucas obviously didn't care for his character. And Yslamari are EU abominations. The force is life.......so how can something create a bubble that takes away teh force? It is a paradox.[/b][/quote]

The characters make the story, always have. Mara's cover story is good, it doesnt work, adn that happens sometimes. Go read the real stories of retired cover guys in government. Sometimes, even the baddest of the badasses can get stuck in a cover situation and miss an objective. Not too hard to believe.

As for Kaarde, he is not Lando, he is not Han, and its fairly limited to think all smugglers would be like one of the two. Lando is a gambler first, entrepeneur second, and everything else third. Smuggling was a byproduct of the previous traits, a means to an end. Han was a pilot, a smartass, and a guns blazing rush head long into a problem kinda guy. Plenty to back this up in the movies as well as the EU. He was sharp, could hide when needed to but was blunt and straightforward. (One of the things that Lucas tells us that Leia loved about him) Kaarde is neither of these things. He is a thinker, a planner, a broker of information rather than a hardcore pilot. He isnt a gambler for the most part, because he usually knows the outcome of the game before he places his bets. He likes to be prepared, to know all the angles, and then play only when he can win. Kaarde is a third type of smuggler, and completely different than the other two characters.

As for Thrawn, he wasnt the best, he was one of, and for a variety of reasons (not the least that he angered Palps) he was sent out afar. Its somewhat unrealistic to think that only the good Imps were at endor, and no where else. Youre point on Bel Iblis is taken, and it is possible that Lucas didnt like the character. Of course if the Rebellion is indeed started (other than in an infant stage) after Ep III it is likely that he would not be seen. Especially since he helped the military beginnings of the rebellion, not something shown in teh films, but something that must exist for Ep IV to play out as it did.

I didnt intend to look at these point by point, but you are overgeneralizing the depth that these characters bring to the SW universe. One last point. The Ysalimari push out the force, they serve as a natural blocker, based on their pysiology and their biological interaction with the force. Since Lucas himself has indicated through a brief introduction of midiclorians that the force and control of it can exist on a biological level, it is somewhat unrealistic to believe that nature doesnt come up with a counterbalance. This was actually a fairly plausible part of the plot as far as I was concerned...but to each their own.

I understand your discontent with new things being added to something that you have come to enjoy as is. The EU and the thrawn trilogy specifically add on to a great story, and allow it to gain additional steam with new characters, new storylines and a depth taht you can accomplish in 2, 4 or even 6 hours. Give it a read, rewatch the movies, and you may be pleasantly surprised. If not, then each of us has our own taste. Perhaps check out the Clone Wars cartoons or the CW books that Lucas has had input on. They may be more to your liking...

[DarthSolo]

*whispers and points* ^'s in my squadron. but, nonetheless I'm gonna take a little bite out of what you said TR1.

Ok, nature coming up with a biological counter attack to the Force? Is that your best argument? Umm, i thought the Force already had two sides? Well, can't be so sure of that with Vergere messin' everything up in the NJO, now can we? Seriously, the creation of stuff like Ysalimari (or whatever they're called) in the EU is just absurd and goes against what the creator of SW created and laid down. And so all those who have had their minds corrupted by these excuses for star wars have to waste their time coming up with ways to make their crap legit. what has the EU done?

[Kam Solusar]

Originally posted by DarthSolo@Apr 4 2005, 11:17 AM
*whispers and points* ^'s in my squadron. but, nonetheless I'm gonna take a little bite out of what you said TR1.

Ok, nature coming up with a biological counter attack to the Force? Is that your best argument? Umm, i thought the Force already had two sides? Well, can't be so sure of that with Vergere messin' everything up in the NJO, now can we? Seriously, the creation of stuff like Ysalimari (or whatever they're called) in the EU is just absurd and goes against what the creator of SW created and laid down. And so all those who have had their minds corrupted by these excuses for star wars have to waste their time coming up with ways to make their crap legit. what has the EU done?
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Nature came up with a biological filter for the Force in midi-chlorians, it stands to reason a biological foil can exist as well.

And for your "against what the creator of SW created and laid down" bit, there are STILL people who are crying foul at Lucas for some of his own ideas, while very rarely do you hear uproar over EU stuff. Why? Only hardcore fans read EU, anyway, for the most part, and it's usually the casual Star Wars fan who hasn't consoled himself on Lucas's curves to the story that no one expected. So your casual fan wouldn't even be reading EU anyway to get "corrupted."

PLUS, what's wrong with having to use your creativity and figure out how the EU can stay in continuity with the source material? In this era of increased laziness and poor schooling in many areas, this kind of thinking is only beneficial. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[TuskenRaider1]

Originally posted by DarthSolo@Apr 4 2005, 12:17 PM
*whispers and points* ^'s in my squadron. but, nonetheless I'm gonna take a little bite out of what you said TR1.

Ok, nature coming up with a biological counter attack to the Force? Is that your best argument? Umm, i thought the Force already had two sides? Well, can't be so sure of that with Vergere messin' everything up in the NJO, now can we? Seriously, the creation of stuff like Ysalimari (or whatever they're called) in the EU is just absurd and goes against what the creator of SW created and laid down. And so all those who have had their minds corrupted by these excuses for star wars have to waste their time coming up with ways to make their crap legit. what has the EU done?
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


You are talking about light and dark. Interpretations to and understandings of the force. The biology of jedi and the ability to feel and interpret the force are a seperate issue than HOW one interprets the force. It is unrealistic (with the caveat that we are talking about science fiction here) to believe that there is no natural biological counterbalance to midiclorians. Every proton has a neutron, every yin a yang. If it is possible for a being or a cell or a symbiot to increase ones ability to tap the force, it is logical that a being or cell or symbiot can deny ones ability. Rmember its not causing the force to not exist, it is limiting ones ability to feel and tap it. THe force is still there, and in everything, ala Yoda and the films, but the individuals ability to use the force or interpret its guidance is blunted and blocked (not destroyed, not stripped forever, but temporarily blocked) by Ysalimari and whatever they have biologically that allows this. Think of it as magnets or any other scientific or biological equivelant one sees in the world. There are plenty to choose from. Remember that the biological creation of the midiclorians and their purpose and power was devised by Lucas himself, not the EU, so for an EU author or character to then play into that possibility is fine.

As for your point on Vergere and the NJO, thats a much longer debate we can engage in at another time. The NJO was a breath of fresh air into the EU, but if you dont like the EU to begin with, its tough to go into the NJO with an unbiased attitude.

The movies and the EU balance each other. Read the EU, watch the movies and you appreciate the characters more because you have that additional backstory. The reverse is also true. As new films come out, go back and read the books with the additional back story and you get more out of it. A fan has the freedom to do that, to interpret as they see fit. If the EU enhances the experience of the films and vice versa, and the fans get enjoyment from that relationship, why knock it. If you havent tried the EU, do it and then decide. If you have and still dont like it, well, then to each their own. I for one enjoy the balance.

Always nice to sim against lead......but watch out, us young (to the EUDF) whelps bite back.....

[Soontir Solo]

Dang you guys. Good stuff. I don't have time to put up responses now but I will before the day is over.

[Soontir Solo]

Shrive: There was NO 50 year gap between AOTC and TTT! That is a lie spread by Zahn's books. At the most between AOTC and TTT you have maybe 25 years between the two! So you think Palpatine decided to shut down the Kaminoans? Because they are aliens? First off we don't know if Palpatine has something against aliens or not. That is an EU thing that has been spread around. But Palpatine's own apprentice at one time was not a human so I am inclined to think that Palpatine hating aliens is just another example of an EU lie!

Sam: Coruscant isn't half Zahn half Lucas. It is 100% Lucas.

Ben: Sorry to say, but Lucas does do teh EU for money. And it doesn't matter how rich he may be what we know about rich people is that they are always looking to become richer. And he has a company that needs to keep the money coming in as well. Pure economics here. And you just said that the EU isn't something GL uses in teh process of creating the PT...............if that is true, which it definitely is, wouldn't that just prove my point that he doesn't give a damn about the EU and doesn't consider it to be real Star Wars? If he did then he would be using it when making the PT. But he doesn't!

Kam: Aren't around? Are you trying to make that argument? What possible reason do we have for the Kaminoans to not being around? Your stretching yourself out too much here. There is NO evidence to support the fact that they aren't around anymore. And you make it seem like the Spaarti cloning would be a generic, not so great version of what the Kaminoans use. In TTT they make it pretty clear that it is much better! They make clones in that series in just days! And they are good clones. Wedge Antilles describes how good the clone pilots are and everything. And in TTT they mention how the clones were made good because Thrawn forced the force away from them when they were growing. Which is of course a load of crap considering all life is the force. Absolutely absurd.

Tusken: Kaarde is a EU product meant to show us what Han and Lando would be like if they hadn't joined the Rebellion! Lets look at Kaarde here. He is a charismatic, intelligent, good fighter, handsome it says, and charming................wow Han and Lando are described like that too! He is a cheap character made like Han and Lando. And they were all fringe people. All three were smugglers.

You have your facts wrong about Thrawn buddy. Read the Hand of Thrawn Duology. It talks abotu how Palpatine and Thrawn didn't get into any kind of argument or anything. It talks about how Thrawn wasn't sent away into the Unknown Regions because him and the Emperor didn't agree. It was all set-up to look that way, according to the HoT duology. Palpatine sent him there to increase the size of the Empire. It was something he could trust only to the best he had! As if this smurf could be such a big player in Star Wars. If he was you can bet he would have had a role in the movies now couldn't you! You would at least see him in a cameo!

And Bel Iblis is described as one of the three Senators who opposed Palpatine while the Republic still existed! Yet we not only don't see him, but we don't hear abotu Padme in TTT! Bel Iblis created the Rebel Alliance! And he is never given a part in the movie! Look up the Correlian Treaty, he created it which created teh Rebel Alliance. He isn't given a part in the movies for one big reason...................He doesn't exist in REAL Star Wars.

[Sam Kenobi]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 4 2005, 08:36 PM
Sam: Coruscant isn't half Zahn half Lucas. It is 100% Lucas.<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


The very first time we saw, even heard about Coruscant was in TTT. And he described it very well, to what Lucas invisioned. And he did infact invent the name, so even if it is not half Zahn, it certainly is not all Lucas.

[Kam Solusar]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 4 2005, 11:36 PM
Kam: Aren't around? Are you trying to make that argument? What possible reason do we have for the Kaminoans to not being around? Your stretching yourself out too much here. There is NO evidence to support the fact that they aren't around anymore. And you make it seem like the Spaarti cloning would be a generic, not so great version of what the Kaminoans use. In TTT they make it pretty clear that it is much better! They make clones in that series in just days! And they are good clones. Wedge Antilles describes how good the clone pilots are and everything. And in TTT they mention how the clones were made good because Thrawn forced the force away from them when they were growing. Which is of course a load of crap considering all life is the force. Absolutely absurd.

<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I am trying to make that argument. I'm at least allowing for the possibility, which is a very real possibility that more than one cloning technology exists, and for the fact that no Kaminoans are seen in the OT. There's no evidence either way, but hey. There's also the possiblity that Spaarti cylinders are actually Kaminoan technology. Spaarti being a brandname or something. The possibility exists because the possibilities are endless untill strictly defined, which they aren't yet. As for the rest of your argument, I'm not sure you've read TTT lately. Your comprehension seems a bit off. Wedge notices how well coordinated they are, eerily so. That has nothing to do with how "well" they were cloned. However, once the clones are revealed as clones, the prevailing theme about them is that they are "off." C'Boaath is insane for instance. They aren't "made good" because they drive the Force away from them, in FACT, they are made INFERIOR because of it, that's why they are off. By using the ysalmari to keep the Force away from the growing clones, they could unnaturally accelerate the process and therefore screwed up the process. They needed the extra men in a hurry, and therefore bent the rules to get it done, there were consequences in the clones as a result.

[Soontir Solo]

NOT a Bash: Kam, I think you have it mixed up. For instance Cabaoth was cloned much earlier than TTT so his condition had nothing to do with the cloning in TTT. And the clones in TTT were really good because the force wasn't around them when they grew. Leia realizes this in The Last Command. She realized that is how Thrawn is growing the clones so fast without them going crazy. The clones Thrawn makes are top notch. And some of them still exist by the time of the Hand of Thrawn Duology. The clones of Baron Fel are in this duology and come from TTT. And they are top notch. Nothing wrong with them, great pilots.

[Kam Solusar]

Oh, yeah. It was far too late for me to have tried to respond. Talk about overshooting the target. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif I did have it sorta right, just turned around. Oh well, there was plenty of good stuff in there too. Next time I'll think it out a little more. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Master Shrive]

You're doing damn well SS to keep up with all the action! Good point about having an alien aprentice, but I'll have a crack at it. But down to business...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Shrive: There was NO 50 year gap between AOTC and TTT! That is a lie spread by Zahn's books. At the most between AOTC and TTT you have maybe 25 years between the two! So you think Palpatine decided to shut down the Kaminoans? Because they are aliens? First off we don't know if Palpatine has something against aliens or not. That is an EU thing that has been spread around. But Palpatine's own apprentice at one time was not a human so I am inclined to think that Palpatine hating aliens is just another example of an EU lie!
[/b][/quote]

I would apear I do owe an apoligy. It is about 30 years between AOTC and TTT. ROTS is about 2 years after AOTC. ANH is about 19 years after ROTS. Then there is 3 years until ESB. Another year until ROTJ and finally 5 years until TTT.

So we have 30 years to develop new technology. That is still a very long time. To use the computer example again, 30 years ago what is happening today was never thought possible. The size, speed and capabilities of the computer I'm typing at is hugely more powerful than mainframe computers NASA was using to send man to the moon. My point? Technology advances in the SW's universe, just like in the real world - especially with enought money and research!

Now for me, thats a perfectly good explanation of how the sparti cloning cylinders could have been created. But why did the Emperor create them in the first place? I think Kam raises a good point that all technologies have cheap rip offs. I can certainly see the Emperor stealing the technology and using it for himself. Maybe he was worried the rebels would get a hold of the technology so he stole what he wanted and destroyed the rest.

And what happened to the Kaminoans? Maybe they were destoyed so they couldn't sell their knowledge. Maybe he just didn't like aliens. maybe we just don't know. However, you raise a very good point that the Emperor did have an alien Aprentice. This Aprentice was defeated however. If the Emperor already had a dislike for aliens (but he was willing to make an acception because he thought he'd found the right guy to help with his revenge), the death of his apprentice may have fuled this hatred. Notice that is next two apprentices are both human. Also notice that in the OT there are no aliens to be found working for the Empire. All the soldiers and comanding officers are human! To me, this all fits.

I think the bottom line is, that if you wan't to use some creative thinking, most of the EU can still fit into the story line GL has created. Just like Tolkien's story was always changing in his mind, so was GL's. Now that there are more pieces to the puzzle, things in the EU can be tweaked and hopefully it will get more of the credit it dserves.

Cheers,

MS.

PS - had to go to class, so I haven't proof read! Hope it makes sense! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Soontir Solo]

Kam: Yeah, your doing a good job. Keep up the good work.

I honestly can say I don't think so many people have gotten involved with teh practice range at one time before in the 5 or so months I have been running it. 7 people right now have been deeply involved in the past couple of weeks so awesome job guys. I'll probably rotate out as EU Basher pretty soon so I can throw up some defenses with you guys.

[Master Shrive]

^I suppose you'd better rotate, or you might foget who's side you're on! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

I feel you deserve more credit than you're recieving though mate. Awesome job.

[Soontir Solo]

Originally posted by Ningen@Apr 3 2005, 09:50 PM
The fact remains that Lucas took the name Coruscant from the Expanded Universe and he liked Aayla Secura so much that he decided to put her on the big screen. He didn't create Aayla and she would have never existed had the EU not existed. Whether you like it or not, both came from the EU and are official Star Wars canon.

And you seem to be missing my point entirely regarding Lucas and his signing off on the EU. Let me try to explain it again. Lucas, being who he is, doesn't need to trouble himself by reviewing and then signing off on EU material. He can have others do that and still take the profits gained. He, however, does not do that. He signs off on the EU personally. If that isn't clear enough indication for you that he cares about the Expanded Universe, then I don't know what is.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



Yes, I can conceded that he took the name Coruscant from the EU and that Secura was first a character in the EU. My point is that people make a huge deal of this and it shouldn't be. THe planet Coruscant was already in existence so the planet wasn't created by the EU, only teh name. Nothing big right there in my opinion. Secura won't have a big role in the movie so I don't think Lucas using Secura is that big of a deal either. If Lucas liked teh EU and considered it real Star Wars you would see people like Garm Bel Iblis, , the Grand Admirals, and Isard. But you don't!

Lucas makes sure and signs off on everything because he is the head of the company! No matter what happens and who does what he still needs to sign off on everything and you better believe he is going to read something before signing off on it! That is just be smart as a businessman.

[TuskenRaider1]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Tusken: Kaarde is a EU product meant to show us what Han and Lando would be like if they hadn't joined the Rebellion! Lets look at Kaarde here. He is a charismatic, intelligent, good fighter, handsome it says, and charming................wow Han and Lando are described like that too! He is a cheap character made like Han and Lando. And they were all fringe people. All three were smugglers.

You have your facts wrong about Thrawn buddy. Read the Hand of Thrawn Duology. It talks abotu how Palpatine and Thrawn didn't get into any kind of argument or anything. It talks about how Thrawn wasn't sent away into the Unknown Regions because him and the Emperor didn't agree. It was all set-up to look that way, according to the HoT duology. Palpatine sent him there to increase the size of the Empire. It was something he could trust only to the best he had! As if this smurf could be such a big player in Star Wars. If he was you can bet he would have had a role in the movies now couldn't you! You would at least see him in a cameo!

And Bel Iblis is described as one of the three Senators who opposed Palpatine while the Republic still existed! Yet we not only don't see him, but we don't hear abotu Padme in TTT! Bel Iblis created the Rebel Alliance! And he is never given a part in the movie! Look up the Correlian Treaty, he created it which created teh Rebel Alliance. He isn't given a part in the movies for one big reason...................He doesn't exist in REAL Star Wars.[/b][/quote]


Lets look at Kaarde. It is hard to believe that fringe characters arent as important as the Emp v Rebels. Han and Lando both were support cast in the assaults on the Death Stars, and were it not for the fringe, they wouldnt be around. Kaarde was used to show how they might of ended up, but there is a SIGNIFICANT difference here. HE chose not to get involved. That character trait in and of itself is significant. There is also the fact that Han never tried to start his own racket, with multiple people working for him. He was as his name said he was, Solo, until others were thrust upon him or he brought them into his personal circle. Always a piece of the puzzle, never the lead. Remember in the attack on Nal Shaada, in the Han prequel trilogy, he let another smuggler, Mako, take the lead in organizing, a main player in it sure, but not the lead. As for Lando, he was a different type. Its the traditional debate and arguement really over what has more influence, Information v Money. What has more importance, Power or wealth. THose are the two different lines that Lando and Kaarde are on. Kaarde was a unique figure in the SW universe. Charming, intelligent and charasmatic can describe a good number of movie and book charaters, not just Kaarde. He makes the stories better, by adding that non-aligned angle to them to show that life exists outside of the Imps v Rebellion and Imps v New Republic. I actually found that his inclusion added to the realistic feel of the SW universe as far as peoples interactions went.

You have a point on Thrawn, I had forgotten my HoT. But you also miss a valid point as well here. Palps sent him away under the cover of an arguement, not so he could send away his best, but also because there were followers of his that had an anti-alien prejudice, even if he himself did not. It works on multiple levels for him. Wheels within wheels. And while I find your Smurf comments funny, the Chiss were written as a military race, average height and size, etc, and just because he is blue doesnt make him much different than a number of species we ahve seen in the film who served Palps as Supreme Chancellor or as galactic senators.

As for Bel Iblis, its fairly obvious that your opinion on the matter is set, and that is fine, but Bel Iblis was the military backbone in the opening stages of the Rebellion, and it is entirely possible that he will be seen in teh forthcoming TV series that Lucas has mentioned as taking place between Eps III and IV, covering the formation and the beginnings of the rebellion. Ep III will likely discuss the intial discussions (speculation, this isnt a spoiler thread) but will not show the military foundations. Until said time, it is still entirely possible that Lucas will use the character. Of course the TV series, if it happens, will add to the EU debate.

[mirax terrik horn]

I am going to jump in on this disscusion.

Tusken what makes you think that the tv series (if it happens) will ad to the EU debate? Won't it just continue to say that GL doesn't even care about the EU so he is just going to do it his way. I mean come on all of this was GL ideas anyways so if he has something that he wants to add or take out don't you think that that is his choice. And your whole thing about Talon Karrde, Whew what a waste of space you wrote a whole paragraph about ummm nothing. Come on convince me that all these "fringe" characters really matter to those of us who don't read the EU.

Tusken please don't hate me after this post, as I read it back I sound really mean.

[TuskenRaider1]

Id never hate another Rogue, but Id be poor member of two flight if I didnt fight back (geez, Ive gone against Rogue Lead, Rogue 9 and Rogue 2 in this thread, talk about practice....)

Heres the thing. The EU is Lucas a) smart business decision to get more money out of the universe, and b) a way to maintain and please the fans with more content. He doesnt have to agree or like everything that comes out of and the fans certainly wont. There are however some big points here. The Thrawn Trilogy is considered by many fans who read teh EU to be amongst the best works out there, as well the the real start of all (and there is a considerable amount) of post-ROTJ work out there. Lucas knew that other authors would do different things and said ok, just dont kill the big three. And thats been held too. The TV series will add to the debate depending on whether a) Lucas has creative involvement or b)Lucas hands it off to someone else, like the much rumored Kevin Smith or someone similar. There is also discussion of two formats, a live action AND cartoon which will certainly add to the cannon and EU debates no matter what side of the discussion you are on.

See, it comes down to how much you want to get into the SW universe and the characters that Lucas created. Lucas did the movies, thats it as far as his sole involvement. If all you want is his vision, dont read the EU. However, part of the reason that Lucas allowed the EU is that most fans wanted more, and the EU allows the reader and fan to gain further insight and depth to the characters from the films. Someone asked if Kaarde was important why isnt he in the films. Well, he was created after 1983, so that kind of limits it, and he isnt per se important during the clone wars. There is a significant amount of time between Ep III and ep IV and it was after Jabbas death and the fall of the Empire and Black Sun that the smugglers, the fringe taht one MUST assume exists since Jabba and Han and Lando are in the movies and say as much, that Kaarde grew in importance, not just in his organizations, but in the SW Universe as well. The bottom line is that all Post-ROTJ authors, comics, etc have used Zahns characters to some extent, and that they have been a consistnat part of the continued character development and depth that the SW universe has had since 83. The prequels have set a backdrop for how we got to Ep IV but there are a lot of gaps, and the EU fills them. To what extent is up to the individual reader, btu I know fans who only read the CW novels, some who only read NJO, and some who have selected authors only they read. Others just read the comics. You see there are plenty of options to pursue, but if not for the EU, none would exist. Youd have the movies and nothing else. Some want that, fine, dont get into the EU, thats your choice. But if you want more, you need to learn about the fringe that makes the whole, not jsut the bright stars, buit the dimmer ones that add to the collective light....

Rogue 6 out.....

[Galahad_Skywalker]

Soontir, haven't had time the past few days to construct a rebuttal, but I will make time once I'm done with class for the afternoon.

[Galahad_Skywalker]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Galahad: Mace Windu was pathetic in that novel. You act like it should be expected a Jedi of his stature should feel such emotions. If this was Anakin Skywalker it would be understandable, but this is most certainly not! We are talking about a Jedi second only to Yoda here. And everyother page he is thinking about doing something dark. This is not Mace Windu! And he loses to this Jungle man and you say you don't know why the Jungle man was so strong. Here is the thing.......in real Star Wars he wouldn't be able to beat Mace Windu. And I like all of the movie characters except Jar Jar, but I will be not be indulging myself in reading abotu them in deformed versions of Star Wars.[/b][/quote]

I guess we have different perceptions of how the minds of Jedi work. Mace and Yoda are powerful Jedi, in fact the most powerful, but this doesn't remove the fact that they are human (well, because Yoda's in this, I'll just say "mortal" instead), and thus are susceptible to the exact same emotions that any normal mortals are. I don't think training makes it any easier to resist these emotions, is all. The path of a Jedi is a lifelong process; you don't simply wake up one day and find that you've become the second most powerful Jedi, and find that you've gone as far as you can go, or that you're suddenly impervious to the call of the Dark Side. A Jedi is a work-in-progress (there is a hint of this in the script for ROTS, though I won't specify the exact details of the scene here, for those who wish to remain spoiler-free; you can check the screenplay if you want to check me on this).

Ah, yes, the fight with Kar Vastor...well, part of the reason the fight took place as it did was explained by Mace after the fight; Vastor's weakness was thinking he was victorious, and as long as Mace lost the fight, he would be able to stay with the guerillas by pretending that he was completely defeated. He needed to stay with Vastor's party to give himself more time to try to save Depa. Now, I agree that Mace with a lightsaber would've cut right through Vastor and ended that fight right then and there, but defeating Vastor wasn't his objective; Mace knew that Vastor's guards would've jumped on him after that and finished him. He intentionally lost by going head to head with Vastor in a jungle brawl, which sounds more plausible than if he had lost fighting with a lightsaber. This is because Mace is a Jedi whose skills are more focused on fighting through the Force, rather than being able to manipulate everything around him with the Force. Some Jedi have a hybrid of both, but Mace has a specific focus, which gives him a disadvantage in a fight without a lightsaber and against a much larger opponent, himself a Force-user.

[Ningen]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 5 2005, 09:08 AM
Yes, I can conceded that he took the name Coruscant from the EU and that Secura was first a character in the EU. My point is that people make a huge deal of this and it shouldn't be. THe planet Coruscant was already in existence so the planet wasn't created by the EU, only teh name. Nothing big right there in my opinion. Secura won't have a big role in the movie so I don't think Lucas using Secura is that big of a deal either. If Lucas liked teh EU and considered it real Star Wars you would see people like Garm Bel Iblis, , the Grand Admirals, and Isard. But you don't!

Lucas makes sure and signs off on everything because he is the head of the company! No matter what happens and who does what he still needs to sign off on everything and you better believe he is going to read something before signing off on it! That is just be smart as a businessman.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

Who said it's a huge deal? It just shows that Lucas does care about the EU. That's why it's such a widely used argument. Regardless of how much of Coruscant was created in Lucas' mind, or how much Secura is going to be used in the filsm the fact still remains that both have their roots in the EU and were both made official canon by Lucas when he brought them to the films. Saying he doesn't care about the EU with those clear facts is like saying I don't care about a cut on my finger even though I've put a band-aid on it.

So now you're changing your argument? First you say he doesn't care and is simply signing off on it to make a buck. Now you say he reads over everything and does so because it's a smart business move. Which is it? Is Lucas a penny-pinching scrooge trying to horde as much money as possible, or is he an intelligent businessman who carefully evaluates everything carrying his name?

[Soontir Solo]

Ningen: It shows that he uses two small pieces of the EU, it does not show that he cares about the EU. Big difference there. And put yourself in his shoes for a minute now. You are the head of a multimillion, probably billion dollar company. Being in such a position means that you read everything you sign! It doesn't mean he cares about the EU, but not reading it isn't something a person in his position would do no matter what business they are in. Lucas is a business man who watches his back and is looking to make as much money for his company as possible. That is what he is.

Galahad: Yes Mace is sitll human. But through out the whole book that was all he was thinking about. Jedi are taught to push anger away. He seemed to be angry the entire novel! I can understand our views on the mind of Jedi can be different. But the Mace in Shatterpoint strikes me as very different from the Mace Windu we see in the movies. So different that it just ruins the novel.

And as for the fight. If he had killed the jungleman right there then the problem would have been over. Having this whole storyling where he had to lose was just pathetic I think. And you act like the guards would have been that much of a problem. This is a JEDI MASTER! A few jungle cronies of Kar wouldn't be a problem for him. And with Kar gone they would have been scared out of their wits of him anyways, they wouldn't even have tried to fight him.

Tusken: You honestly think Bel Iblis might appear in the TV series? Well we will see. Though I can tell you right now he won't unless Lucas has almost nothing to do with it like he does the EU novels. To me Thrawn is just a smart smurf. As for Kaarde you make some interesting points. But Kaarde did join teh side of the New Republic in every important way. Just because he didn't pronounce it to the galaxy who necessarily believe it himseld didn't mean he ddn't choose a side. The moment he gave the location of the Katana Fleet to the New Republic he took sides. And by the time of the NJO he has as closely affiliated with it as Lando or Han. The story would have been better with a similar figure who isn't human and isn't so much like Han and Lando. Someone more fringe like rather than gentlemen like. That would have made it more realistic.

[Ningen]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Apr 6 2005, 04:56 PM
Ningen: It shows that he uses two small pieces of the EU, it does not show that he cares about the EU. Big difference there. And put yourself in his shoes for a minute now. You are the head of a multimillion, probably billion dollar company. Being in such a position means that you read everything you sign! It doesn't mean he cares about the EU, but not reading it isn't something a person in his position would do no matter what business they are in. Lucas is a business man who watches his back and is looking to make as much money for his company as possible. That is what he is.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

No offense, but that's extremely flawed logic. If one does not care about something, then one does not take things from said something. It makes no sense to do otherwise.

Same with your thoughts on Lucas reading things simply because he's a good businessman. Businessmen all over the world who make millions never bother to check product. They're told the products will sell. They don't have to personally inspect the product. Knowing that Lucas does shows that he at least wants the material to credible -- something that goes against your opinion that the EU is trashed and plagued with inconsistencies and continuity flaws.

[Sam Kenobi]

What about mine a while ago, SS?

[TuskenRaider1]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Tusken: You honestly think Bel Iblis might appear in the TV series? Well we will see. Though I can tell you right now he won't unless Lucas has almost nothing to do with it like he does the EU novels. To me Thrawn is just a smart smurf. As for Kaarde you make some interesting points. But Kaarde did join teh side of the New Republic in every important way. Just because he didn't pronounce it to the galaxy who necessarily believe it himseld didn't mean he ddn't choose a side. The moment he gave the location of the Katana Fleet to the New Republic he took sides. And by the time of the NJO he has as closely affiliated with it as Lando or Han. The story would have been better with a similar figure who isn't human and isn't so much like Han and Lando. Someone more fringe like rather than gentlemen like. That would have made it more realistic.[/b][/quote]

A different Kaarde species might have made a difference, but maybe not. Kaarde did indeed pick sides, but not until Thrawn came after him, so he saw it as self-preservation as much as anything else. He also stayed as much out of the way as possible until HoT at which point he served as an intel liason until NJO. In NJO it was EVERYONE vs the Vong, including thesmugglers alliance. That closesness to Han/Lando makes perfect sense in said story arc. As for Bel Iblis, well, I hope he is, but its up in the air, and Lucas, while having a creative role, has also hinted at allowing others to take the real lead. Should be fun. I think though that between us, there is little else to cover on Kaarde. If you want additional perspectives on Thrawn, read the upcoming Outbound Flight book. There is likely some talk about his and Palps relationship there.

[Soontir Solo]

I responded to it on page 3 Sam. Only one line though.

This will be the last day I am EU Basher for awhile. Starting Friday afternoon Mirax Terrik Horn will be EU Basher for at least a few days.

[mirax terrik horn]

Yep thats right. I will be starting a new bash so be ready everyone.

[DarthSolo]

and i might resume my roll as support basher, if that ok with my wingmate?

[TuskenRaider1]

Cool, practice against Rogue 2 and Lead. Heck of a way to earn your spurs..... Well Bring it on, and hopefully us newer guys can vape ya or at least burn you a bit in sims....

Rogue 6 out....

[mirax terrik horn]

Rogue lead that would be great cause there are going to be times when I am not able to be on. Rogue six in your dreams fly-boy you only wish you could keep up.

[DarthSolo]

We're about to show you what Rogue 1 flight is all about!

[Soontir Solo]

Feel free to start whenever you want Mirax and DS.

[DarthSolo]

im flying support, so I'll wait to fire shots till Mirax has.

[TuskenRaider1]

Tresk, 7 and 8 (still ahvent met them) Lets show that 2 flight can hold our own. Bring it on 2, whats a little practice without some challange huh? Plus, just cuz youve been here longer, might mean your minds starting to wander, age and all.....heh. Just playin. Bring it on....

[mirax terrik horn]

Are you calling me OLD? According to your info you can be anywhere from 4 to 7 years older than me. OK well enough of the rivalry, here it goes.
I just got done reading the first book in the thrawn trilogy and I think it sucks. Who is Timothy Zahn to make all those assumptions on GL, I mean making things up that don't even exist in the true star wars universe PLZ how pathetic is that. He just wanted to upstage GL and make himself bigger than GL. And this whole thing with EU being canon, I just can't even believe that someone would say something as stupid as that. If EU is canon then the star wars universe has gone completely to the dogs, and I don't know if I even want to be a star wars fan anymore.

[DarthSolo]

Yeah, Zahn is a big egotist who whines when anyone thinks about doing anything to his prescious mara jade. He is half the reason the EU sucks, because he can only write about three characters: THrawn, Mara, and Karrde. Even his new book is going to be focused on Thrawn. He thinks he is the god of Star Wars and that whatever he does goes! And his attitude has caught on with all you EU lovers, praising him for Coruscant, when all Lucas was doing was avoiding fan havoc! Zahn has caused so much trouble with his dates of the Clone Wars, its not even funny. Yeah, he had limited information, but he could have had enough respect for Lucas to at least be vague with the dates. But no, he put almost exact years on them, and so when Lucas made the PT he looked like the bad guy. and zahn sits back in his chair laughs and writes another lame-o story about Mara Jade and Thrawn.

And of course, the EU can't count properly! Look at Captain (or G.A.) Paelleaon. In TTT i remember reading that he had been in the service of the Empire for 50 years. Ok, the Empire hadn't been around for 50 years, but ill leave that alone for now (go ahead, challenge me on it, i have something up my sleeve). Then, the EU keeps this man alive till at least the end of the NJO - a full 20 years later! So, by the end of the NJO, when the man is still alive and kicking, he has been in the service of the Empire for 70 years. Let's take this logically and say he joined at 18. He is 88 years old, and we do not see any sign of age. Hello EU authors....this dude needs to age! You did it with Ackbar in the NJO, but apparently Palleon is perfect!

[TuskenRaider1]

Where to start. With its publication, TTT stood atop the NY Bestsellers list for 29 weeks. The longest of any SW book. It remains the highest selling of all time. Upon HoE 's release Zahn admitted he was terrified of fan reaction, but pleased when the overall fan reation to LFL was positive. As Zahn developed the Luke/Mara relationship as well as expanded into other SW aspects, he sought and received LFL's permission to write and expand on certain plot points.

Lucas has a host of quotes on his not reading the novels. He has also said however, that the story is too big to just be told on film and LFL has a standing belief that if it adds to the SW storyline its accepted, and if it contradicts the movies, it is ignored.

Zahn wrote about the CW before Lucas gave us a timeline. Lucas's timeline supercedes Zahns but you cant go back and change TTT. You adapt the best you can and accept that there will be continuity errors on things Lucas himself has not created at the time they are approved.

That being said, the additions that Zahn made to the EU have set the benchmark, and his book remain amongst the top sellers and most popular of the EU. If you personally dont like Zahn, then there are plenty of other authors to read, and if you dont like the EU, id suggest reading a broader scope before coming to that conclusion. I personally am a big fan of the expanded stories and the additional depth they provide to the SW universe.

Ultimately SW is Lucas's creation. But by allowing others to tell the tales he has neither the time nor inclination to tell, there are going to be breaks in the continuity chain. Its artistic interpretation. As higher members of LFL have stated in the past, not every artist draws Luke the same way, but hes always Luke. Authors have a certain amount of freedom to expand on the stories, and ultimately someone from LFL signs off on it.

The EU is what you make, and hopefully, you find parts of it you like. I know I did.

[DarthSolo]

eh, ill think on that later

[mirax terrik horn]

Originally posted by TuskenRaider1@Apr 8 2005, 02:07 PM
Lucas has a host of quotes on his not reading the novels. He has also said however, that the story is too big to just be told on film and LFL has a standing belief that if it adds to the SW storyline its accepted, and if it contradicts the movies, it is ignored.

<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I'm sorry did I say I cared whether or not the TTT was made into movies.......NO! I said that didn't think they were canon, like all the rest of the EU books, and I didn't think that TZ was a good writer. And I think that it does contradict the movies so what do you say to that. Quoting you again <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>and if it contradicts the movies, it is ignored. [/b][/quote] So you pretty much just contradicted yourself there.

[TuskenRaider1]

I dont think its a contradtiction. It is not a black and white debate. LFL has mentioned that it recognizes various levels of cannon. There are ample quotes I can give you or sites I can give you the link for to read them all in depth, but the above quote is taken a bit out of context. When they contradict the movie, they are ignored by LFL with the understanding that basic artistic interpretative differences will exist when various people work on the same subject matter. The above statement was in reference to the overall continuity arc, not the EU as a whole.

Also please remember, that you are not the first to raise this issue, and certainly not the last. If you dont personally like TZ, fine that is your right. The issue of contradiction involving cannon is the true heart of the matter, but again Ill reference the flannelled one. The story is too big for the movies alone, and so it will be explored in other forums. TV, comics, books, etc. LFL has said that if it adds to the story line (Mara, thrawn, kaarde, ca'both etc.) its accepted. If it contradicts (50yrs tween clone wars and ANH) than it is ignored.

You take the good with the bad. No one is forcing you to read the books, but there are multiple platforms and multiple authors, one of which you may enjoy. If you firmly are entrenched into hating the EU, i doubt anything I say wil change your mind totally. Give it a shot in comics if you dont like the books though, and maybe the TV show will be more to your liking...

[DarthSolo]

You still ignore the fact that a man of at least 80 or 90 is one of the most physically fit, active, intelligent minds in all the millitary forces of the galaxy by the end of the NJO. Its just unrealistic. Its absurd, and the EU is always doing stuff like that. Like the fact that an entire Empire would go around following a fake Thrawn! Come on! That is just dumb.

[Soontir Solo]

Originally posted by DarthSolo@Apr 9 2005, 02:28 PM
You still ignore the fact that a man of at least 80 or 90 is one of the most physically fit, active, intelligent minds in all the millitary forces of the galaxy by the end of the NJO. Its just unrealistic. Its absurd, and the EU is always doing stuff like that. Like the fact that an entire Empire would go around following a fake Thrawn! Come on! That is just dumb.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



First off Pellaen isn't portrayed as physically fit in NJO. Remember in Destiny's Way Leia even commented on him having gained weight and looking older. But even at that age why can't he be as intelligent and active as he was? He had decades of military experience and as long as he doesn't develop a disorder or something like Alzheimers his mind would be just fine. As for being active I think you are overstating how truely active he was. It isn't like he is off flying a starfighter here. He is on an Imperial Star Destroyer, sitting in a chair, giving out orders. That doesn't take the body of 30 year old you know.

And the entire Empire didn't rally around the fake Thrawn in the way you are saying. First off teh Empire was but a shadow of what it used to be. It was down to like 8 sectors. Look on the NJO maps and you can say the space controlled by the Empire is miniscule. So it isn't like the whole galaxy is following the fake Thrawn. Secondly if you read teh book you can see how very possible and probably that this could happen. With the proper actions taken you could easily make someone look like Thrawn. A trained actor like the fake was could easily adopt the voice, attitude, and composure of Thrawn by studying video of him. And ten with enough study of Thrawn's history of course he could be in a position to know some of the things Thrawn would be expected to know. And with someone like Tierce (who has partly the same genetics as Thrawn) helping you behind the scenes with tactics and strategy it is very possible that this could work for awhile. Which it did.





It feels good to throw in a EU defense in the Range

[DarthSolo]

Oh comon! After, what is it? 15 years of being dead a whole government gets up and follows him?!?! absurd! It doesn't matter who is working with who and how good an actor is playing a role, 8 whole sectors would not just get up and follow! Its not a matter of just looks and voice and whatnot, its just plain unrealistic! This is 15 years later people!

And no, paleon wasn't particularly active, but something that happens when people get older, espcially in their 90s!, is that their mind works a little slower. No, he didn't have to have alzheimers or anything, but there is absolutely no effect seen in the books! his mind is as sharp as ever! unrealistic!

[TuskenRaider1]

Lets remember too that folks seem to have a bit of a longer life span in the SW universe than in this one. That is, those not killed in war. Palleon is a survivor, and he leads through experience. You also are forgeting that we have congressman, presidents, civic leaders and supreme court judges in our own history that have led into their late 80s. Remember that Palleon led the entire Remnant fleet. Not one ship. Remember also that he led after the FH trilogy as THE leading voice in teh remnant. Now the NJO brought him to the command chair, but for most of the time in between and parts of the NJO, he is seen to be leading on Bastion, and like Akbar, not ALWAYS on the bridge (Ackbar spent many years on the Council and at HQ, but not in direct command of vessels, even in the earlier years of the New REpublic). And dont forget that there isnt a lot of age data on Ackbar (unless I missed it)

Thrawn was a fraud in HoT. That was the point, when people are down, they will follow even a hint of leadership if it presents itself. Most leadership is an act that gets folks to follow it, and as long as it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, adn has a fairly plausable reason why you hadnt seen teh duck before, you get the point.

[Soontir Solo]

Ever heard of Jimmy Carter? That guy is incredibly old but his mind is still working just fine. He is still fairly active, travelling and speaking to crowds and stuff. If Jimmy Carter's mind is just fine, which it is, then I don't see why Pellaeon's can't be. And TR makes a good point about people living longer in Star Wars. Remember that this is a much more complex and technologically/scientifically developed galaxy. With bacta around there is no reason to think Pellaeon would be affected by his old age the same way non-Star Wars people are. And remember Count Dooku. He had to be about 85 I'd say and he was doing just fine. He was more active then Pellaeon.



I have to go to class so I'll get to the other argument later.

[mirax terrik horn]

Yeah but that is just unrealistic (I know what you are going to say, star wars isn't real) but that is just too far a stretch of the imagination. Really like someone is going to be leading the empire remnant when he is old and feeble. Please that just doesn't make any sense. They so could have found someone else to do it, the writers are just too lazy to make up, and develope new characters and ideas. The whole NJO thing is new writing to a very old and used idea. Like I said the authors are just too lazy to even start a new thought.

[DarthSolo]

Soontir: Dooku is a COMLETELY different issue! This guy has the Force with him! Comparing him and Paleaon is absurd!

Tusken: You are saying exactly what I'm saying! He is the sole leader of the Empire at the age of 90! I'm not saying that he can't be doing fairly well, but an Imperial Grand Admrial, especially one who also is the head of the whole state basically, has to have an extremely sharp mind! Especially if you are taking into account politics and an entire fleet at the same time. At 90 years old, that is asking alot, in any galaxy.
And as far as everyone following a fake Thrawn because they were down and out, I am sorry, I just don't buy that. They are following way to blindly. I know the masses can follow some pretty crazy stuff, but if Abraham Lincoln got up and ran for president in '08, i dont think I'd be too keen to vote for him. I'd smell something fishy, I don't care how badly the US might be doing.

[Kapit]

wait a minute now, DS. you say paelleon is the sole leader of the empire? what about the council of moffs that he has to present everything to? they're the rulers of the empire

[TuskenRaider1]

Here is the problem as I see it. You have decided, DS and MTH, that there is a cutoff age for leadership. You have decided that there is a specific age that folks go nutty. That they are not as sharp. The problem with this assumption is that it doesnt hold up in SW (as is LFLs choice) but also does not hold up in the real world. Leadership is a combination of experience, charisma and enthusiasm. You Usually get 2 of the 3. Palleon reports to the council of moffs, but by the end of FH series, he essentially is telling them do this or I leave, take the fleet with me and do it anyway. It is realistic to believe that a leader can do such at his age. THere are countless world leaders in the real world that have that sort of power.

As for thrawn, Abe is an extreme example, its more than a generation, more than a few for that matter. 15 yrs is not. The reason he was gone is somewhat plausable if not fairly thin, but that fact that a leader presents himself, can falsify records that convince others is believable. Again remember, it is not the PEOPLE who follow him, but the governments of planets and the remnant leadership (minus Palleon) itself. If you are in the remnant remember, its not like you have a whole lot of freedom of choice. If the Imps say "hes now in charge", most dont fight it. Dictatorships (civil or military juntas) have their perks in this regard......

[DarthSolo]

Originally posted by JediKaputski@Apr 11 2005, 09:30 AM
wait a minute now, DS. you say paelleon is the sole leader of the empire? what about the council of moffs that he has to present everything to? they're the rulers of the empire
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

TR1 seemed to answer this claim for me. Thanks! But, to reiterate, by the end of the NJO, the old guy had all the power he wanted. HE told the moffs what to do. He was the Supreme Ruler, weather that was his title or not.

TR1, my point is that in general, even more than in general- in almost every case, we see the effects of age when people get up around 80 or 90, physically and in the mind. I am not saying that someone of that age cannot be a good leader, but Palleon, by the end of the series, is more than just a military leader or a political leader. he is unofically the Supreme Leader of a strong entity in a budding alliance that has just fought the war of more than one lifetime. And we see no effects at all. Absurd. He is more than a senator or a president or the head of the military. He is all of those combined and much much more.

As for the HoT monstosity, yes, Abe is an extreme example. Maybe FDR would be better, but that is besides the point. The point is that the people, the leaders, the moffs, whoever, would not just get up and follow someone who has been dead for a decade and a half without asking any questions. Zahn created thrawn as a character that was meant to be irreplaceable, and weather you like him or think he is realistic or not (a completely different argument) he IS irreplaceable. And then Zahn goes and replaces him. Its dumb! He created a character that was special, that was above everyone else practically, killed the character, and then had an entire government get up and follow a fake. Is anyone else seeing how this is a bit of an issue? ANYONE?

[Jedi_Poo]

This is in response to the Pellaeon subject, it maybe short: Even though he is old, I find it realistic that he can command the entire Remnant and be old too. Aside from the NJO timeframe, I remember someone that resembled an old man, General Jan Dodonna. He is a fellow old timer, as I would put it, and he seemed to manage everything okay. He concieved the layouts and design of the A-wing, he stayed behind and was wounded severely and managed to stay alive. This is before the NJO, but this was the only thing I could think of. Call it irrelevant to the subject or whatever, but I see that Pellaeon could command the entire fleet at his age.

[TuskenRaider1]

See I dont see the issue here, so maybe you can expand on your thoughts, but there have been instances in history, where the threat of a feared rulers return has inspired action. THere is a certain amount of lore that exists around strong leaders. There was a belief for years that Hitler did not infact die in a bunker but lived out his life in other places, recovering til it was time to strike. Didnt happen, but enough believed it to give it legs. The idea of Thrawn reappearing when it seems all is lost for the remnant in regards to some wanting to throw in the towel (Palleon) for the greater good seems incredibly plausable to me. The Chinese kept Mao alive long after he died through a variety of PR measures, according to various scholars, and that is a nation of a billion people run by fear. Why cant that happen in the empire. As for the moffs and the mil leaders, not all believed (again, Palleon) and those who were convinced were so by an excellent actor, as well as falsified DNA samples, an elaborate ruse, but one that worked on teh most basic of ideas. The fact that the fake was backed by the strongest Moff and given strategy in secret from a partial clone of Thrawn makes it all the more believable.

As for the age issue, again, because it bears repeating, we cant take our preconceptions on the onset of age and its effects on the mind, and apply them to a world where Bacta and ryll can extend the average life span of a sapient being. Its where the science fiction in this comes into play. I have no trouble seeing Palleon as the wisened old admiral who leads because he must, not because he has ambition to, and who appears weary and old while doing so, which it is remarked he is.

[Kam Solusar]

Focusing on a fictional characters age seems to be really grasping at straws. Some people decrease with age, some mature like fine wine. But this is a fictional character here, being created in a fantasy world. To argue over the merits of age seems rather pointless. We must take the authors word for the competency of any aged person in a fantasy world.

[mirax terrik horn]

Well I think that kam just wrapped that bash up quite nicely good job kam, I especially like your use of the fine wine analogy (LOL). Hey soontir do you want to go on the offensive or do you want me to stay there for a while?

[Soontir Solo]

How about you stick around doing this for the rest