Galactic Sports Network

[Darth Fabulous]

This thread is for discussing sports. Any sport from any country is fair game. I want this thread to remain peaceful so while insulting players, teams, owners, and commissioners is acceptable, insulting fellow senators is not.

I'll get us started. Recently Pete Rose met with MLB commissioner Bud Selig to discuss Rose's reinstatement. Pete Rose of course is the legendary player/manager of the Reds who broke Ty Cobb's career hit record and finished with 4256 hits. Will Rose be reinstated and if he is will he have to admit to gambling on baseball?

[QuigonWindu]

Pete Rose will be reinstated one day. Probably after he dies. And speakingof sports go Ravensand Terps.

[Javen]

I'm not sure Pete Rose has to admit to something he didn't do. Will he be reinstated, I think he will, when Bud Selig is no longer commishinor.

Pete Rose also has a 44 game hitting streak and should be in the Hall of Fame.

[QuigonWindu]

Has or had. Did he end his carrer with a batting streak.

[Darth Fabulous]

I don't know. Considering the way Selig has been treating Rose lately I think it will be soon. He invited him to game four of the World Series, and now he is discussing the possibility of reinstating him. I don't think Selig's motives are the best, he is seeking popularity especially after the all-star game and the threats of contraction. I think we will see him reinstated by Christmas unless he wants Rose to admit to the gambling, which Rose will never do.

[Darth Fabulous]

Had, he didn't end his career with a hitting streak.

[Darth Insightful]

An update from ESPN.com on Peter Edward Rose:

Proposals exchanged but many hurdles remain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ESPN.com news services


Pete Rose met with commissioner Bud Selig in Milwaukee two weeks ago to discuss Rose's possible reinstatement to baseball.

Nothing has been agreed to at this point -- including whether or not Rose will be reinstated or regain eligibility for Hall of Fame induction, sources close to the situation have told ESPN.com's Jayson Stark.

The meeting between Rose and Selig came 13 years after Rose, then the manager of the Cincinnati Reds, agreed to a lifetime ban from the game following an investigation into his gambling. Rose's playing career ended on Aug. 17, 1986.

"There have been a number of stories reporting alleged conversations or meetings between commissioner Selig and Pete Rose," Bob DuPuy, baseball's chief operating officer, said Tuesday in a statement. "Pete Rose applied for reinstatement to commissioner Selig several years ago and that application has been pending since that time. Given the pendency of the application for reinstatement, neither the commissioner or anyone in our office will comment on the Pete Rose matter further."

Rose, baseball's career hits leader, applied for reinstatement in September 1997 but Selig has refused to rule on it, saying in the past he hasn't seen any evidence that would make him alter the lifetime ban.

Since their meeting two weeks ago, there have been subsequent conversations between representatives of Selig and Rose, and proposals have been exchanged, Stark reports. And it is clear that Selig is now more open to the possibility of reinstating Rose than he has been at any point in his decade as commissioner.

Rose wasn't shedding much light on his talks with Selig.

"There are a lot bigger people I'm obligated to answer to first," Rose told Cincinnati television station WXIX through a personal friend on Monday night, "so my official comment is 'no comment.' "

WXIX-TV, quoting unidentified sources, reported that former teammate Mike Schmidt accompanied Rose in the meeting with Selig.

There is still great disagreement, both within the baseball establishment and among living Hall of Fame players, about how much Rose should have to admit about his gambling and to what extent he should be reinstated.

It is regarded by the sources as all but certain that Selig will insist that Rose will have to admit in some fashion that he bet on baseball.

"My opinion is completely predicated on if he admits wrongdoing," former commissioner Fay Vincent told ESPN on Tuesday. Vincent was deputy commissioner under then-commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti at the time Rose was banned for life on Aug. 23, 1989. Vincent was named commissioner following Giamatti's death in the ensuing days after Rose's banishment.

"I know Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt have tried to get Pete to admit he was wrong for years, but I don't believe that Pete will ever admit he was wrong and I don't believe that Bud Selig will ever reinstate him," Vincent told ESPN.

If the terms of Rose's mea culpa are agreed to, there will be a probationary period before he is eligible for the Hall of Fame and before he would be reinstated and allowed to work again in baseball. Sources indicate that a deal is in the works.

In a July interview with The Associated Press, Rose said baseball considered him "dead" unless they needed him for a specific reason.

Rose was welcomed to participate in ceremonies on the field during the 1999 World Series as part of baseball's All-Century team. He also appeared onfield during the 2002 World Series for the game's most memorable moments, voted on by the fans. His breaking of Ty Cobb's all-time career hits record in 1985 was among the top 10.

"In 1999, when I made the All-Century team, they needed me," Rose said at the time. "They won't call on me until they need me. They're hypocrites."

Background information from The Associated Press was used in this report.


Rose should be reinstated, and it should have happened a long time ago. The case against him is based around testimony from two convicted drug dealers, who were promised that the charges pending against them would be dropped if they testified against Rose. Pete Rose allegedly messes up once and gets a lifetime ban while the Darryl Strawberries and Steve Howes of the world are given a slap on the wrist and welcomed back with open arms. It's blatant hypocrisy on the part of Major League Baseball and they should be the ones to apologize, not Rose.

[Das_Funked]

<span style="color:seagreen">Anyone ever heard of Cricket?</span>

[Darth Fabulous]

Yes, what about it?

[Darth Whaler]

I think the time has come to reinstate Pete Rose. I understand WHY he was punished and agree that he SHOULD have been punished. However, my opinion is that the Hall of Fame serves to recognize a player's accomplishments on the field. Rose is thought by many to be one of the greatest players in history. He deserves to be in there.

[Darth Whaler]

Oops, double post. Sorry. Anyone else having difficulty posting today?

[Darth Fabulous]

Hey Darth Whaler, since you are a Miami grad I wondered what you thought of the Marshall game a couple of weeks ago?

[RollaFett]

Bud Selig only invited Rose to the World Series this past year for one reason...money. Mastercard was sponsoring that 'Greatest Moments' in Baseball fan survey, and Rose breaking Cobb's hit record was voted high enough that Selig had no choice but to invite him when they announced the list.
On a side note, the 'Greatest Moments' list was ridiculous! Cal Ripken breaking Lou Gehrig's consecutive games played record voted #1?!?!?!?!? Are you friggin' kidding me?!?!

[RollaFett]

C'mon people, I know we have some sports fans here! What should we be talking about?
- Yao Ming's assault on the NBA?
-The Phillies willingness to finally spend money and attempt to compete?
-The insane AFC playoff race?
-Parcell's flirtation with the Cowgirls soon to be vacant head-coaching position?
Come one, come all, let's read your opinion on the hot sports topics!!!!!!!!!!

[Das_Funked]

Does anyone like it?

[Tonin]

Well I would just like to say that I am disgusted with the Atlanta Braves. Last time I looked 11 of the 25 who opened with us last season have been signed or traded to other teams. Not that that is unusual, and several members of the team are starting to get a tad bit old (lets face it, Javy Lopez and Henry Blanco are too old to catch anymore) but we gave away the whole pitching staff. Resigning Maddux and trading Millwood was so rediculous. I know that basically Sherholtz's hands are tied and he is trying desperately to come in under the budget cap so I cann't be too mad at him. It's AOLTimeWarner that I believe is to blame. If you follow stocks at all they are going way down, and they happen to own the Braves. So AOL ain't got no money and now the Braves don't either. Ted Turner needs to buy back the franchise. For the Braves sakes I hope that the farm system has some good ones ready to come up to the majors.
Ok, I'm off of my soap box now.

[RollaFett]

Heh, heh...yeah, I happen to like that Millwood deal.

Das-Funked- What?

[James T. Skywalker]

Hooray for the NBA! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

I'm very happy that my Kings beat the L.A. Lakers on Christmas Day. It was a remarkably good game, especially after the embarassment that Boston put up with earlier in the day.

I'm not looking forward to the NBA's new Charlotte franchise. It's great that Mr. Johnson has become the first African American owner in professional sports, but it seems as though the league is getting too big anyway. Look at how the two previous expansion teams have fared this year: Memphis (formerly Vancouver) started the season 0-13; Toronto is sorely missing Vince Carter, and is probably missing Keon Clark and Hakeem Olajuwan more than a little as they sit at the bottom of the Central Division.

Yao Ming and Amare Stoudamire, two of the big men in this year's draft, are on a tear, especially Stoudamire, who's fit in well on a suddenly surging Suns team. Yao could even make the All-Star game, provided China has quite a few internet-accesible computers.

Attendence is down in the league, which isn't a surprise to me. More and more corporate deals are making the sport commericalized, not team-centered. Teams like the Lakers and the Knicks have become mass media products that haven't paid off this season. Their players (notably Shaq, Kobe and Latrell Sprewell) are selfish and aren't fun to watch. Meanwhile, in towns like Sacramento, Dallas and New Orleans, the basketball product is booming as their markets are team-oriented rather than superstar-oriented. Guys like Peja Stojakovic, Eduardo Najera and David Wesley sometimes overshadow their star calliber players like Webber, Finley and Mashburn, while playing unselfish basketball that makes the game fun to watch.

Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady together again has been fun to watch, but it'd be nice to actually see them playing together every game. It's too bad they both still have these lingering injuries; the Magic would go on a tear if they could get them playing to even 80% for a good portion of the season.

That's my NBA rant for the day.

~JTS

[RollaFett]

You make a lot of good points JamesT. I'm confused about Charlotte getting another crack at the NBA. Why so soon? The Hornets obviously didn't succeed, right? What was the reason for failure before, and why should it work the second time around?

The playoffs are about to begin in the NFL! Anyone with thoughts on this?
I'm pretty excited about the Eagles getting home-field advantage throughout!!!!

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Well I would just like to say that I am disgusted with the Atlanta Braves. Last time I looked 11 of the 25 who opened with us last season have been signed or traded to other teams. Not that that is unusual, and several members of the team are starting to get a tad bit old (lets face it, Javy Lopez and Henry Blanco are too old to catch anymore) but we gave away the whole pitching staff. Resigning Maddux and trading Millwood was so rediculous. I know that basically Sherholtz's hands are tied and he is trying desperately to come in under the budget cap so I cann't be too mad at him. It's AOLTimeWarner that I believe is to blame. If you follow stocks at all they are going way down, and they happen to own the Braves. So AOL ain't got no money and now the Braves don't either. Ted Turner needs to buy back the franchise. For the Braves sakes I hope that the farm system has some good ones ready to come up to the majors.
Ok, I'm off of my soap box now.[/b][/quote]

Well you like the Braves, I'd be disgusted too.

I would like to congradulate The Ohio State University for beating the Hurricanes and becoming national champions in dramatic fashion Friday night. Go Bucks!!

[RollaFett]

Yes!!!! The one team that could've given the Eagles trouble in the playoffs, the NY Giants, just blew a 24 point lead and lost to the 49ers!!!!!!!! Woo Hoo!!!!!

E-A-G-L-E-S..............EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Seanakin]

Buckeyes Buckeyes Buckeyes!!!! Miami is in OHIO, Damnit!!!!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

BTW I don't wanna hear anything about that penalty, since by all rights, Miami of Florida's punt return late in regulation shouldn't have stood up. Either I'm crazy or a ref missed an egregious block in the back.

Anyway, Miami of Florida had plenty of chances to win the game outright, but let them slip by.

On a personal note, it's a crying shame my aunt couldn't have lived to see it.

On the NFL side of things, I have a feeling the Falcons are wearing out their welcome across the Midwest.

Knowing Reeves' record with mobile QB's, I'd worry right now if I were Mike Vick, BTW.

[RollaFett]

Yeah, Vick is gonna be hurtin' after the Eagles get through with him.

[Seanakin]

I mean long-term, GF. I can't forget how Dan put all of the Broncos' hopes squarely on Elway's shoulders all those years.

[RollaFett]

That's an excellent point. However, I believe that Vick's supporting cast is a little better right now than Elway's was back then. Not a lot better, mind you, but a little. He does have 2 good running backs. I dare say that either of those guys are better than Sammy Winder.

[Seanakin]

That's true, GF. Warrick Dunn is as good as Winder, Steve Sewell, Gene Lang, Gerald Willhite, and Ken Bell COMBINED.

And I'll always be a fan of Super Sam.

And don't get me wrong, I like Dan, and I think he's a good coach. He just sucks as a GM. But whenever he's been put in charge of a veteran squad of talented professionals, the results have generally been above average.

Speaking of which, I'm kinda glad Holmgren gave up the GM duties in Seattle. That must've been a hard swallow of pride.

[Darth Fabulous]

Anyone watch the Giants/49ers game? It was one of the best comebacks I have ever wittnessed. Anyway, I was watching PTI, for the non-yanks that's Pardon the Interuption, a sports discussion show on ESPN, and they asked who the bigger idiot was Shawn Williams or Terrell Owens? If you don't recall the last minutes of the game, Terrell took a cheap shot at Williams and Williams responded in kind. The resulting penalties offset and had Williams not retalliated the Giants would have gained better field possition for their final drive, and may h ave had more time after that botched field goal attempt. So what do you guys think, is Owens the bigger fool for taking a cheap shot in a close game, or is Williams the idiot for not just taking it like a man and helping his team?

[RollaFett]

Oh, I saw that game. What a great finish! too bad the NFL came out today and admitted that the refs screwed up at the end. Oh well, as an Eagles fan, I'll get over it. You watch PTI, huh? Is that a great show or what?
As far as who was dumber, well, I guess it would have to be Shawn Williams. Not by a lot, though. And why the hell wasn't Owens ejected too? He punched that guy in the back of the head as he was falling out of bounds for chrissakes!!!! What a punk! I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL took another look at that this week and dishes out some disciplanary action. I'm not saying suspension exactly, but he should be punished.
Seanakin, what about Bobby Humphrey?

[Darth Fabulous]

It's almost a toss-up for me, but Williams actually cost his team field possition they would have been given in penalty yardage while Owens' actions didn't really cost his team anything in the long run. That was a heart-breaking ending. If the stupid holder had spiked the ball they had another down and a few seconds to try again. I don't really understand why that guard was an eligible receiver. I always thought that only players lined up behind the line of scrimage and those on the ends of the line were eligible. I'm not sure, but I think on PAT tries and field goal attempts the long-snapper is eligible also, at least he is in Ohio high school ball.

[Whisper]

Originally posted by Darth Fabulous@Jan 6 2003, 11:30 PM
It's almost a toss-up for me, but Williams actually cost his team field possition they would have been given in penalty yardage while Owens' actions didn't really cost his team anything in the long run. That was a heart-breaking ending. If the stupid holder had spiked the ball they had another down and a few seconds to try again. I don't really understand why that guard was an eligible receiver. I always thought that only players lined up behind the line of scrimage and those on the ends of the line were eligible. I'm not sure, but I think on PAT tries and field goal attempts the long-snapper is eligible also, at least he is in Ohio high school ball.
It's against the rules for the holder to spike.

[Darth Fabulous]

It's illegal for a holder to throw an incomplete pass? Since when?

[Whisper]

Throwing Incomplete is a littel different thatn PURPOSELY throwing incomplete (as in...ya know..that ground.)

Anyhoo, I just heard that on the radio as the reason

[Darth Fabulous]

Have you ever seen a quarterback spike a ball to stop the clock, it is perfectly legal and happens on a weekly basis. The holder could have spiked the ball at anytime up to the point he began to scramble. Once he began to scramble he would have been intentionally grounding the ball up to the point he left the tackle box, which he did eventually. At that point he could have thrown it anywhere he chose including directly into the ground.

[Whisper]

The Holder is not the QB. If the Holder throws and misses the receiver that's legal. If the QB Spikes that's legal. But a Holder is NOT allowed to spike...which is why he didn't do it.

[Darth Fabulous]

A holder and kicker are subject to the same rules as a quarterback, so long as they are the first player to touch the ball after the center. Since all are considered passers, each can make forward passes, each can be roughed, each can spike a ball. You could technically direct snap a ball to a runningback out of the shotgun and still spike the ball.

This is from the official NFL site in the rules section under Intentional Grounding of Forward Passes:

Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

So long as there is not imminent loss of yardage, which there wasn't at the moment the holder received the snap and realized it was bad snap he could have immediately spiked the ball, before the pressure was sufficient in the referree's eyes to constitute imminent loss of yardage. Anyway after he scrambled outside of the tackle box he could have thrown the ball anywhere(including directly into the ground) but behind him to stop the clock.

[Whisper]

Then your going to have to tell that to the sports commentators in NYC. Personally for Football I'm at a loss after the downs. I'll watch it if it's all thats on.

Gimme Baseball anyday

[Darth Fabulous]

Wait a minute, NYC...you wouldn't be a Yankees fan would you?

[Whisper]

HELL NO!

[Darth Fabulous]

That's good to hear, the Evil Empire sucks. Go Red Sox!!

[Whisper]

I'm a Mets Fan...and we beat the Red Sox...on a dribbler style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Darth Fabulous]

I recall that, thank you. And the Mets did not beat the Sox, the curse did.

[Whisper]

Maybe so...but the Mets got the Series credited to them style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Seanakin]

Ah yes, Humprey. Well, anyone who could rack up thousand-yard seasons with that slow, undersized offensive line deserves some credit unto himself. (So throw Gaston Green into that mix as well.)

And once more, I don't mean to bash the line from back in the day. (Billy Bryan, Number 64, is STILL my all-time favorite Bronco, so much so that I wanna name my son, God willing, after him.) But the fact remains that despite their guts, heart, and effort, guys like Bryan, Dave Studdard, and Keith Bishop were too small to play in the NFL. And if you look at the amount of sacks Elway took, you'd agree.

Anyway, as for the present year, that is one HELL of a big piece of news, that the holder cannot spike the ball to kill the clock. Makes sense, however nit-picky that may seem to me. Hmmmm.

[Whisper]

Some more info on that. If the Holder gets the ball directly from the Snapper (err...) THEN he cn spike it. however it wasn't a clean snap, so he could NOT spike it.

(Source: Lisa Olson, Sportswrter for the NY Daily News.)

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by GollaFett@Dec 31 2002, 07:17 PM
You make a lot of good points JamesT. I'm confused about Charlotte getting another crack at the NBA. Why so soon? The Hornets obviously didn't succeed, right? What was the reason for failure before, and why should it work the second time around?
Sorry that I am really late in responding to this. The reason that the Hornets left Charlotte was because the Charlotte population did not like the ownership of that team. The owners had really done a terrible job in trying to get a downtown Charlotte arena deal, and public opinion turned on them (the owners). Thus, attendence went down and the Hornets were moved to New Orleans. Now Johnson and his franchise (which he will have to pay $300 million to get players to the expansion team) have been more successful, and the league AND the city are both looking into a downtown arena for the new Charlotte franchise.

~JTS

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>(Source: Lisa Olson, Sportswrter for the NY Daily News.)[/b][/quote]

Oh my, a woman, that's a good source for sports information. Anyway, he still could have thrown the ball wherever he wanted after he got outside the tackle box, except backwards of course.

[RollaFett]

I really think you're off on this Fabulous. The best I know, a holder can only down the ball by throwing the ball to, at least, the line of scrimmage. That would pretty much rule out spiking the ball. As far as why one of those guards was eligible, well, at the beggining of the game that player reported as an eligible receiver on all extra point and field goal tries for the entire game. The ref simply forgot about it. Now, there was an in-eligible player as well, but as long as there was at least one eligible player, pass interference should've been called. Overall, a complete mess. A mess that the Giants should never have allowed to happen.

James- Thanks for the Charlotte info. I thought it was something like that but was way too lazy to check it out.

Seanakin- Can't say I remember any of Denver's linemen from the past. I do, however, remember some safety they had during the late 80's. Can't recall his name, just images of him futily chasing Redskins' receivers during the second qtr of Super Bowl XXII. Some slow white guy. Pretty funny watching him, actually.

[Seanakin]

Tony Lilly?

[RollaFett]

Lilly? Perhaps. I honestly can't remember his name.

[Darth Insightful]

Yankees effectively screw the Red Sox again. Steinbrenner will make Larry Lucchino regret that "evil empire" remark.

Yankees send Hernandez to Expos, obtain Osuna

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ESPN.com news services


The Chicago White Sox acquired starter Bartolo Colon in a three-way deal with the Expos and Yankees on Wednesday.

The White Sox sent reliever Antonio Osuna and minor league pitcher Delaris Lantigua to the Yankees for right-hander Orlando Hernandez.

Chicago then dealt Hernandez, pitcher Rocky Biddle, outfielder-first baseman Jeff Liefer and cash to the Expos for Colon and minor league infielder Jorge Nunez.

Colon, 29, was acquired by Montreal from Cleveland on June 27. He went a combined 20-8 with a 2.93 ERA in 33 starts, including a 10-4 record and a 3.31 ERA in 17 starts with the Expos.

Hernandez was 8-5 with a 3.64 ERA last season in 22 starts. A three-time World Series champion with the Yankees, "El Duque" is 9-3 with a 2.51 ERA in 16 postseason games. He became the first pitcher in major-league history to win his first eight postseason decisions, and his nine victories are one shy of the Yankees' record held by Whitey Ford and Andy Pettitte.

Hernandez became expendable when the Yankees ran their number of starting pitchers to eight with last season's acquistion of Jeff Weaver from Detroit and last month's signing of Cuban defector Jose Contreras

Liefer, 28, hit .230 with seven homers, 26 RBI and 28 runs scored in 76 games for the White Sox last year, including 21 starts in left field, 18 at first base, nine in right and four as DH. He made his major-league debut with the White Sox in 1999.

Biddle, a 26-year-old right-hander, went 3-4 with a 4.06 ERA and one save in 44 appearances last year, making seven starts.

Nunez, 27, played last season with Triple-A Ottawa, batting .291 with 20 RBI, 42 runs and 27 stolen bases in 91 games for the Lynx.

[RollaFett]

The Evil Empire has struck again!

Conference championships this weekend! Predictons, anyone?
I've got one....E-A-G-L-E-S.......EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Seanakin]

Originally posted by GollaFett@Jan 9 2003, 07:52 PM
Lilly? Perhaps. I honestly can't remember his name.
I think it's Tony Lilly. Slow white guy, wore number 22.

If Bob Lilly was the consummate defensive player, Tony was his exact opposite. Dan Reeves' lack of defensive acumen was the only reason he was on that field.

[Darth Insightful]

My predictions:

Eagles over Bucs. Tampa Bay's only win in a game that had a starting temperature of 40 degrees or below came against Da Bears in the last game of the regular season. They have to win a few more than that before I think that game was a turning point and not just beating up on a hapless opponent. Veterans Stadium has been a house of horrors for the Bucs, and this year will be no different. Donovan McNabb may be the only quarterback in the NFL who the Bucs can't contain. He'll have a big day. Eagles 17, Buccaneers 10

Titans beat Raiders: Steve McNair always comes to play in the big games and he finds a way to win more often than not. Even though Eddie George's numbers are down the last few years, he gets just enough yardage where the defense can't focus solely on stopping the passing game. Plus, Oakland's two corners, Tory James and Charles Woodson, both have metal rods inserted in their broken legs, so neither is at 100%. Titains 24, Raiders 21 (Janikowski misses a field goal in the final seconds)

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Eagles over Bucs. Tampa Bay's only win in a game that had a starting temperature of 40 degrees or below came against Da Bears in the last game of the regular season. They have to win a few more than that before I think that game was a turning point and not just beating up on a hapless opponent. Veterans Stadium has been a house of horrors for the Bucs, and this year will be no different. Donovan McNabb may be the only quarterback in the NFL who the Bucs can't contain. He'll have a big day. Eagles 17, Buccaneers 10[/b][/quote]

I might have to disagree with you on that one. The Buc's offense impressed me last week by beating the niners like a redheaded step-child. Also the Bucs managed to contain Vick earlier in the year, I think they can handle McNabb who isn't quite 100%. This will be a close game, and I would like to see Eagles win, I just don't see it happening, butt cold weather or not.

[Darth Fabulous]

I guess I was right...how about that?

[Darth Fabulous]

Now that the Bucs are NFC champs, who here thinks that Jon Gruden was worth 2 first round picks, 2 second round picks, and $8 million?

[Whisper]

....uhhm...How about them Mets?

Personally the Super Bowl is in the "I could not POSSIBLY care less" Category as the Jets, Giants and Niners are out.

[Darth Insightful]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Now that the Bucs are NFC champs, who here thinks that Jon Gruden was worth 2 first round picks, 2 second round picks, and $8 million?[/b][/quote]

Not me. No coach is worth that much, I don't care who he is. The Bucs are going to regret giving up that much for Gruden. The $8 million I can see. It doesn't, to my knowledge anyway, count against the cap, so who really cares about the money. At some point down the road, not having a pick until the 3rd round for two years is going to hurt more than it will help having Gruden. I don't know the cap figures, so I could very well be wrong, but I would wager that with all the star players the Bucs have that they are heading into cap problems in the not-too-distant-future. When that happens they are going to have to let some guys go, and are going to wish they kept those picks and found another coach that wouldn't cost them anything but the money to sign him. I'm not convinced Gruden made a huge difference and is that much of an upgrade over Tony Dungy. Dungy never had a healthy Brad Johnson or a quarterback of equal talent to work with, and for some reason he let Les Steckel run the offense. Getting a good offensive coordinator alone might have solved the problem just as well.

[Darth Fabulous]

I would say that for the short term, Gruden was worth it. Before you tear me to shreds hear me out. The Bucs are headed for major cap problems. Their only hopes of winning it all for the near future rests on this season, and maybe next year. They will have to make major trades in the near future. They have effectively mortgaged their future, the near future was not too bright anyway, for the present. Tampa Bay could trade players for higher draft picks or trade their remaining picks for a first or second round pick. I don't think they are a whole lot worse off then they would have been without Gruden. I'm not the Tony Dungy fan Darth Insightful is, I think he should have looked for work as a defensive coordinator. However, the real winner here is the Raiders. If I was offered all that for Gruden I would have packed his bags for him.

[Darth Fabulous]

Those were some killer calls there Mr. Not-So-Insightful.

[Darth Fabulous]

Now that the Raiders and Bucs are in, does anyone have any predictions? I'm going with the Bucs 31-24.

[Darth Insightful]

Two posts on the same thread within a minute of each other? Somebody wants to be a Member II really bad.

As far as my predictions go, I will be the first to say that I was wrong, but oh well. At least I had the guts to make a point prediction instead of just making a guess I had a 50/50 chance of being right on. On the bright side I got the Titans point total right.

Secondly, I heard you out on the Gruden matter and I will now procede to tear you to shreds. I have historical precedent on my side when it comes to a team shelling out multiple draft picks for one player/coach. The Cowboys were essentially able to build the nucleus of their Super Bowl teams in the '90's with one trade, dealing Herschel Walker to the Vikings for a kings ransom of picks. The fact that I'm a Viking fan only makes this all the more painful as I've seen first hand what happens when you mortgage the future for one person.

Now lets deal with the future of the Buccaneers. I think that they had at least a three year window to win a championship, starting with this season. That was when they still had those draft picks and could afford to lose a few players because they could plug those holes with draft picks. If they wanted a high profile coach so bad, why couldn't they have gotten San Francisco to let Marriucci out of his deal? I'm sure the 49ers would have almost paid the Bucs to take Mooch off their hands, as rumors had already begun to swirl last year and even two years ago about problems between Walsh and Mariucci. What about Dennis Green? He proved to be a winner in Minnesota for so many years and wouldn't have cost any draft picks. What I'm saying is that the Bucs had several other options to choose from, but the Glazer brothers elected to effectively put all their eggs in one basket and gamble that Gruden could bring them a championship before their window closed. I'll admit, so far that has been a very good gamble, but what happens if the Bucs lose to the Raiders? Will just getting to the Super Bowl be enough to justify giving up all that they did? I don't think so. What happens a few years from now when this team has to be gutted like a fish and they've given away two first round picks and two second round picks that would have gone a long way to rebuilding, or maybe just retooling, this club? Do you think Gruden is going to want to hang around and wait several years to rebuild a franchise when he could be somewhere else winning? No way. He'll leave as soon as the Buccaneer's window closes and a team is willing to give up a pick or two for him. But don't think for a minute it'll be anything close to what the Bucs gave up for Gruden. They'll be lucky if they get one first rounder. Teams just know that there are other options out there that are just as good as Gruden and at a far cheaper price.

**Edit: Literally seconds after posting I rembered that the NFL just recently enacted a new rule that prevents teams from trading draft picks for coaches. This only further proves my point that the Bucs can never recoup what they lost in terms of draft picks.

By the way Darth Fabulous, notice my use of the edit option. Instead of making another post that would be just a few lines long in order to up my post total, I just added to my original post. It's a novel idea to you I know, but just try it once. I'm sure you'll like it.

[Darth Fabulous]

We don't have Member II anymore, it's Jedi Master. Also since each post was on a different topic, I thought they deserved separate posts.

All I'm saying is that it looks like it's panning out for them as we speak. It's not the best deal in the world, but things are working out so far, this year. Whether the Bucs would have made the Super Bowl without Gruden, we'll never know. Any deal that results in a Super Bowl victory is worth the price, arrangements can be made for the future. I have to reserve final judgement on the Gruden deal until I see whether the Bucs win the Super Bowl and what adjustments they make for their lack of draft picks. I wouldn't want to reach a premature conclusion or anything.

[Darth Fabulous]

I edited the above post just for you Darth Insightful.

[RollaFett]

GRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not a happy camper right now. The Eagles went out and laid a big fat egg in thei final game at the Vet. I'm in mourning, but not alone, I have my 7&7's to keep me company tonight.
Ok, my Super Bowl prediction of Eagles vs. Titans certainly didn't come true, huh? Now we have the perfect matchup, for the media at least, with the Buccaneers vs. the Raiders. Chucky vs. his former team. Ugh.
As far as all this talk about Gruden being worth the price, well, I can't say right now. If they win the Super Bowl, then I would have to say that the gamble paid off....in the short term. The fact still remains that they have a lot of talent that they won't be able to keep and no high picks for a couple of years to help replace them. I guess it comes down to how bad the Glazers want a Super Bowl, right? It seems as though they're willing to mortgage the future for a chance to win it all. In today's NFL, is that really out of the ordinary? Does anyone remember the Baltimore Ravens?
The big question I always thought was this: Why not allow Dungy one more year, and if he fails in the post-season again, then make your move on Gruden when it doesn't cost you anything extra? Sure, you could say that perhaps the Glazer's thought they were a year away from the title, but really, who actually thought that? So why rush into that move?
Back to the game, huh?
Buccaneers- 19
Raiders - 24

2003-04, the year of the Eagles, baby! Then again, I kinda' thought that this year too. :whatsthat:

[Darth Arraics]

I will have to say Tampa gets the last laugh!! I'm still shocked. I will be on Tampa's side for the Super Bowl. I liked Gruden when he was with us. I still can't believe that F....n game.

[RollaFett]

I hear ya', man, I hear ya'.

[RollaFett]

I was too depressed to go to work today. I called out. Now where is that bottle of whiskey?

[Darth Fabulous]

bump

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I'm going with the Bucs 31-24. [/b][/quote]

Man I was close. Up until that last interception I had 34-21.

[Darth Fabulous]

Sorry, make that until the last two interceptions returned for touchdowns.

[Whitesaber]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=black)'><span style="color:orangered">WOOHOO!!! Bucs won!! The Bucs won!!!!!! Jon Gruden rules!!!!</span></font>

I got kind of worried there when the Raiders started getting all these touchdowns... but the Bucs shut them up! In my opinion, Dexter Jackson deserved the MVP.

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I got kind of worried there when the Raiders started getting all these touchdowns... but the Bucs shut them up! In my opinion, Dexter Jackson deserved the MVP.[/b][/quote]

I agree, although I am glad Madden decided to put most of the Buc's defense on the horse trailer, they all deserve some recognition for completely shutting down the NFL's #1 offense for the first three quarters.

[Whitesaber]

Yeah. That was great. I had agreed to do this weird thing with my friend. If the Bucs won as I said they would, then I'd phone him and yell, "WOOHOO!!" Then I'd hang up. He'd do the same to me if the Raiders won. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif I got a kick out of yelling at his answering machine!

[Darth Fabulous]

Didn't they do a Budweiser commercial just like that like a few years ago?

[Whitesaber]

Dunno. Sounds like one, though. Speakig of Budweiser commercials... what happened to those two lizards? They were funny.

[Darth Fabulous]

Remember when one of the lizards, Louie I think, hired that weasel to assassinate the frogs? That was great.

[RollaFett]

Tampa sucks.

[Whitesaber]

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">YES!!! Spurs over the Magic!!!</span>

[RollaFett]

Pitchers and catchers report in only a matter of weeks.

[Darth Insightful]

11 days for my Reds. I'm pretty sure every other team's Spring Training starts the same day too.

[RollaFett]

Most likely, or within a day or two of one another.
Phillies, baby, yeah!!! Jim Thome, Kevin Millwood! I smell 82 wins! WooHoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darth Insightful]

I really like the Phillies in the East. Pat Burrell is an incredible young hitter, and I think we'll see at least 30 homers a year from him every year, and probably more. Bobby Abreu had a ho-hum year last season, but I think he'll bounce back. Here's a question: what was the better deal, getting Millwood for Johnny Estrada, or Abreu for Kevin Stocker? Really, as long as the Braves don't win the East I don't care who does. By the way, the Padilla Flotilla (sp?) is my favorite player fan club.

[Darth Insightful]

Well, apparently someone from the Phillies front office reads this board and after hearing me complement Burrell, they decided that it would be a good idea to tie him up longterm as he agreed to a 6 year, $50 million contract today. The Phillies have handed out $162 million in new contracts this offseason to Thome, Millwood, Bell and Burrell. That's only about $2 million less than what the Yankees will pay out in salaries this year! GollaFett, I'm sure you're thrilled at this signing, as you should be. I only wish my Reds would show a willingness to sign quality guys like Burrell to multi-year deals instead of wasting what little money they have to spend on waiver-wire fodder like Jimmy Haynes. I only hope they'll be smart enough to lock up Dunn and Kearns to long-term deals in the not-too-distant-future.

Anyway, all this baseball talk has gotten me thinking about fantasy baseball. Would anyone here be interested in joining a league? I usually use Yahoo and it's very good, considering it's free. They haven't posted anything about it yet, but I'm guessing they will in the next week or so. Let me know and if I get a good enough response I'll start a thread so that others can join too.

[RollaFett]

Yeah, I'm definately happy about that new contract for Burrell. It's funny seeing the Phils throw out so much money this off-season. I'm unaccustomed to it. The fact that they are opening a new stadium in '04 has a lot to do with it. What the hell are the Reds doing, anyway? Aren't they opening a new park this year? Damn fools.
As far as Fantasy baseball goes, I may very well be interested, but we'll see. I may have another league going at the time.

[Darth Fabulous]

I'm creating a sports forum, and I am having trouble deciding on a domain name. So I decided to create a little contest. If you would like to enter, simply submit your suggestion for a name by posting it on this thread. If I choose your suggestion and it is an available domain name, you get to be my first moderator. I will inform the winner on this thread. You may submit more than one suggestion.

[Padme]

All I can think of is 'The Fabulous World of Sports".

[Darth Fabulous]

We're looking to attract a large sports audience, which means mostly men, people might think I'm "a little light in the loafers" and be turned off by it. I like it, but I'm afraid others will think it's not so cool.

[Padme]

Thats all I could come up with. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Darth Fabulous]

The best I have come up with is thesportsforum.net. If anyone else thinks it sounds as hokey as I do tell me before I use it anyway.

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">How about "The United Sports Network"?</span></font>

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">Here's a few: "World Of Sports", "The Great World of Sports", "The Sports Network", or "The Sports Board".</span></font>

[Darth Fabulous]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The Sports Board[/b][/quote]

The Sports Forum is the best I have come up with, and so far still the best I have seen.

[Darth Fabulous]

Well the contest is over, and I win! It will be called sportszoneonline.net and should be ready by the end of the weekend. Check it out, join if you like.

[Darth Fabulous]

Shameless plug time. Sports Zone Online (http://www.sportszoneonline.net) is now up and running. There are only two members and it doesn't look like a whole lot yet, but come look for yourselves. I want to see my baby grow, so please spread the word.

[Darth Fabulous]

First person to join my site that owns photoshop and is willing to do work gets to be the first moderator.

[RollaFett]

Well, since I don't on photoshop. that wouldn't be me.

[Darth Fabulous]

You can still join.