The Seven Forms Of Lightsaber Combat

[darth covington]

the seven forms of lightsaber combat are a pretty cool addition to the star wars universe so my question is which one would you choose.
form I:i belive form one is yoda's style quick and almost flawless moves.
form II:my choice count dooku's style of fighting long elegant attacks that require incredible deftness of hand.
form III:obi wan's style of combat purely defensive in every way.
form IV:I belive this is anakin's choice very powerfull and highly manuverable.
form V: bultar swan's choice quick yet short range attacks that are so fast that they might not be seen.
form VI:luminara unduli's fighting style normally a two person form when you and your partner execute move in unison.
form VII:mace windu's style of fighting very powerfull has an odd resembalance to the sith style of combat. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Rinc]

As Yoda's uses almost flawless moves i'd have to go with form I.

[Rogue_0009]

I choose form VII cuz it emphasizes the use of minimal effort toward a maximum effect which is my preference in style for quite a few things [I pull A's in school with barely any study time, and also practise a style of karate which emphazises the priciple]

[jinn katran]

I think that i would have to go witn Anakin's style. The moves would be quick, powerful and you would never see it coming

[Shadow Jedi Rhyro]

Form III. Only because it seems to do the trick pretty well and for whatever reason looks very graceful. Not bad to throw attacks in like Obi does but seems your best bet if dealing with a very powerful enemy. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sneaky2.gif

[LordTyranus]

I would have to go with either form 2 or form 4.

[Powerful Jedi]

Form III. Its graceful, fluid-like, and seems natural with the rhythmes of body movement. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Saranac]

I would go with either III or IV.

You may not like them but thats what I would use.

[Momin327]

I'd say the Form II style, because it is a swift, exquisite, and effective fighting style. Loved the old-school lghtsaber fighting Dooku did from AOTC. * style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[Pepper]

Where do you all get this idea of there being seven forms of lightsaber combat?
???

[Isomorph]

I would study 1 thru 7 a good fighter learns to build on what he has learned and to continue to learn diffrent style's of fighting forms.It makes you more well rounded and deadly.We get the idea of their being 7 forms because if you have read the offical books its says that their are 7 forms of lightsaber combat fighting style's.

[Master Cephus]

Would you not chose the style based on the opponent?

[Isomorph]

Master Cephus a well trained fighter learns to read his opponent and to act accordingly thats why its good to know more than one style of fighting.

[darth covington]

I have this to add about form two it is als a mimic form where you can apply any form two attack to another forms stance which is why dooku was always in the stance of obi wan or anakin so i would do a blend of three and two defensive yet a clear elegant and powerful to any form ppfensive. (i got this information from the books and visual dictionary) style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[Darth Whaler]

I'll take form III. I would tend to focus on the defensive aspect of combat.

[DarthLestat]

Doesn't form VII also incorporate parts of all the various styles? From reading about it, it would have to be my choice, it looks to be the most effective of all the forms.

[Phantomised Menace]

I'll take form III or IV

[Pepper]

Quote: "We get the idea of their being 7 forms because if you have read the offical books its says that their are 7 forms of lightsaber combat fighting style's."

Isomorph, I have not read the official books, for various reasons. I guess what I'm asking is *which* books or sources you're getting this from. In other words, what are the titles of the books?
Thanks.

[Tovor]

I'm sorry to cut in on a question to Isomorph, but I can tell you Pepper, that at least one is the AOTC Visual Encyclopedia. Its a pretty neat book even without that info. :satisfied:

[VIR Jedi]

It would be nice to be skilled in all levels of lightsaber combat, but I'd choose Form VII with Mace.


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif :saber: :saber:

[Angel_Blue]

Id go with Yoda's/Mace's create my own style of strong sith like attacks plus fast flawless moves, heck we may even see that in Anikin/Vader in ep III......... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif + :yoda: = style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">I'm endlessly fascinated by this stuff, but I'm probably the only one. In any case, I've decided to post a thread about it, so here's my take on them*********************************************

Form I
The most basic of Forms. Before the technology to make lightsabers was created, swords of metal were used (I assume like the ones we have today). Therefore, when lightsabers were first created, the same techniques of combat used with the swords of steel, were used by lightsaber wielders. Your basic attack/parry moves, as well as body target zones and practice drills called "Velocities", were encompassed in this Form.

Users:All Jedi start out by using this Form, as it helps them hone their reflexes and other basic practices. Form I is studied for about two years and then the Jedi spends a year or two on each additional Form before completing their training.

Form II
Described as being "the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat." Form II promoted the presicion of blade manipulation to its finest possible degree. Out of Form II came the greatest lightsaber duelists the galaxy has ever seen. However, because of the role your typical Jedi plays during the time in which the Star Wars saga takes place, this Form is hardly used, if at all. Jedi very rarely fight enemies wielding lightsabres, therefore, there is no tactical use for it. To a Sith Lord, however, this Form can be a great ally, since even if a Jedi has been prepared for their battle, they would still have a difficult time finding victory over this powerful technique.

Users:To my knowledge, the only current practioner of this Form is Lord Tyrannus, seen in AOTC, who's precise moves overwhelm both Obi-Wan and Anakin in battle.

Form III
This particular Form grew out of the relatively new technology of blasters. Blasters grew popular among the scum of the galaxy and the Jedi order had to develop a way to defend themselves against it. Enter Form III. This Form focused, initially, on laserblast deflection. However, as time went on, and laserblast deflection grew into less of a great lightsaber Form and into more of a basic technique among the Jedi, Form III became a philosophical statement of a Jedi's non-aggresive belief. Form III maximises defensive protection by using tight, efficient moves, exposing as little target area as possible. Form III became a highly refined technique of defense against, not only laserblasts, but from lightsabers also. A true Form III master is considered invincible.

Users:After the death of Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan took up this Form as he thought Jinn's defense was insufficient to the Form VII stylings of Lord Maul. Even as he gets older, Obi-Wan is still a formidable practioner of this Form. In ANH, He cannot defeat Vader, but Vader never truly manages to get past his defenses either. Only when Kenobi sacrafices himself to become one with the force is Vader able to strike him down.

Form IV
Form IV is a very acrobatic Form utilizing the Jedi ability to run, jump and spin in phenoenal ways, using the Force. The flashiest of all Forms, a master of this Form will use elaborate moves, in the middle of which, a Jedi may only be a blur. This Form incorporates all of the ways the Force can assist a Jedi to do what would normally be physically imposible.

Users:In TPM, both Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan use this Form on Lord Maul. Neither Kenobi nor Jinn had truly mastered it however, and suffered for it. However, Master Yoda, who, in his 800 years, and had plenty of time, has properly mastered. In AOTC, Yoda's Form IV mastery was a match for Lord Tyrannus, who's Form II style would have normaly had no problem dispatching a user of this Form.

Form V
This Form was created during a very hectic time in the galaxy, and the Jedi were frequently forced to maintain the peace by force. This Form was created at the same time as Form IV, and was used by Jedi who believed Form III to be to passive. While a Form III master may never be destroyed by his opponent, neither would he necessarily defeat them. This Form focuses mainly on power. Some Jedi believed ths was a dedication to the power and strength needed to defeat your opponent. Others believe it is mearly "peace through superior firepower."

Users:Anakin Skywalker studies this Form, possibly in his increasingly blinding quest for power. However his cocky nature gets in the way of him devoting himself completly to the Form and suffers for it in AOTC. As Vader, he continues to use this Form. Because his lack of movement allowed from the suit, he frequently defeats his enemy by overpowering them. Luke uses a variation of this Form on Vader in ROTJ as he has had practically no proper training. He adapts to the attacks from his father and uses them against him.

Form VI
The most passive of Forms. This discipline, also known as the "Diplomat's Form", is the most lax in its demands of the Jedi. In the time of the Chancellorship of Palpatine, this is the Form used by most Jedi in the order, as it is the current standard. While it does allow for a Jedi to spend more of their time on their studies of diplomacy and negotiation, many Jedi masters of other Forms consider it to be insuficiently demanding.

Users:Unfortunetly those Jedi masters may be right. In the Battle Of Geonosis, all the Jedi who utilize this Form and fight in the Arena, are killed.

Form VII
The ultimate discipline. Only a handful of Jedi have ever fully mastered this Form, one of them being Master Windu. To achieve and control this Form you have to be a high level master of many different Forms. Although it is the most difficult and demanding of the Forms, its rewards are well worth it. Form VII uses "bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearence as Form IV. The biggest advantage to this Form is its unpredictablity. It tries to overwhelm an opponent by using seemingly unconnected movements and attacks in short, rythmic bursts. It is not quite as linked as the more graceful Form IV. The Form also requires more enrgy and intensity than Form V since the focus of that Form is used more broadly. Form VII also utilizes a "deeper well of emotion" than Form V, but masters it more. On the outside, a Form VII master may give the presence of calmness, but on the inside, there is an inner emotional pressure that verges on explosion.

Users: As Form VII is still in the experimental state, very few Jedi master it fully at the time of the Palpatine Chancellorship. Master Mace Windu is the only known practioner (and instructer) of this dangerous Form.

Sources:Star Wars Insider, Issue no.062 -- written by Dr. David West Reynolds and Jack Bobo and also Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones The Visual Dictionary -- writen by Dr. David West Reynolds.
*********************************************


*Whew*! That took awhile. Well I hope this is informative to some people. I'd love to hear some feedback. Sorry if this was just a big waste of your time, but I figured at least some people who didn't know about it will benefit from it. </span></font>

[Javen]

Actually there is already a thread about this same thing, I will go find it.

[Luvinna.]

What'd ya do, Obi-Wan? Type in the whole article? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif I really enjoyed the article when I read it. It made it easy to see how Anakin/Vader's lightsaber fighting style evolved through the movies. And how Luke's changes from ESB to ROTJ.

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">Yeah it is awesome. My fave is Form III and Form IV those are really cool.</span></font>

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">Come on! Doesn't anyone else care to know about this stuff? If you want to know about it, this is where to come. This is from Star Wars insider.</span></font>

[Renekame_3rd]

I'm loving Form VII, although i had heard of the forms i'd never read about them before. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Rogue_0009]

<span style="color:silver">I care.</span>

[Renekame_3rd]

Heh, we're Star Wars fans, we all care style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Plo Koon]

Isn't there already a thread about this somewhere.

[Renekame_3rd]

Yeah, but in that thread someone said:

"Isn't there already a thread about this somewhere?"

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">There is another thread about this. But this one is alot better. I read that other one.</span></font>

[Plo Koon]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">What's so funny?</span></font>

[Rogue_0009]

<span style="color:silver">I Dunno.</span>

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">You talk'n to me?</span></font>

[Plo Koon]

Originally posted by Obi-Wan@Dec 22 2002, 06:06 PM
<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">What's so funny?</span></font>
I'm agreeing with you.

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">Someone agrees with me?! That don't happen that much.</span></font>

[Raganork8]

Originally posted by Obi-Wan@Dec 22 2002, 03:55 PM
<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">There is another thread about this. But this one is alot better. I read that other one.</span></font>
HEY it took me a good five minutes to write that thread obi wan and i don't appreciate everyone making fun of it mine was better and you stole the idea!
Now if you want to we could fight you can be obi with form III tradittional lightsaber combat and i can be dooku oh wait that means i'll kick your jedi butt!J/k this one is more in depth but next time tell me before you steal me ideas style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">I didn't know you had one. But after I posted mine up I found your's and I thought mine was better.</span></font>

[Raganork8]

Yeah it is.

[Plo Koon]

Obi-Wan's is better.

[Raganork8]

Ahem thanxs plo we kinda established that!
Is that cloud in your sig?

[Plo Koon]

Finally someone noticed.

[Raganork8]

You like FF?

[Plo Koon]

Who doesn't.

[Raganork8]

Darth darthy.

[Plo Koon]

Someone who doesn't like the greatest RPG ever!!??http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/cwm/cwm/eek2.gif But he's intitled to his own opinion.

[Raganork8]

Yes of course he is erRrr ahh yeah ahem right.

[Obi-Wan]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=blue)'><span style="color:white">Going up!</span></font>

[Master_Mams]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif
I've seen no topic about it, so here is my little contribution for my fellow senators. Enjoy. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wave.gif


<span style="font-family:Optima"><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%">Sources:
Star Wars Insider, Issue no.062 -- written by Dr. David West Reynolds and Jack Bobo, and also Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones The Visual Dictionary -- writen by Dr. David West Reynolds. </span> </span>

<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:green">Form I</span> </span>
The most basic of Forms. Before the technology to make lightsabres was created, swords of metal were used (I assume like the ones we have today). Therefore, when lightsabres were first created, the same techniques of combat used with the swords of steel, were used by lightsabre wielders. Your basic attack/parry moves, as well as body target zones and practice drills called "Velocities", were encompassed in this Form.

<span style="color:orange">Users: </span>
All Jedi start out by using this Form, as it helps them hone their reflexes and other basic practices. Form I is studied for about two years and then the Jedi spends a year or two on each additional Form before completing their training.

<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:green">Form II</span> </span>
Described as being "the ultimate refinement of lightsabre-to-lightsabre combat." Form II promoted the presicion of blade manipulation to its finest possible degree. Out of Form II came the greatest lightsabre duelists the galaxy has ever seen. However, because of the role your typical Jedi plays during the time in which the Star Wars saga takes place, this Form is hardly used, if at all. Jedi very rarely fight enemies wielding lightsabres, therefore, there is no tactical use for it. To a Sith Lord, however, this Form can be a great ally, since even if a Jedi has been prepared for their battle, they would still have a difficult time finding victory over this powerful technique.

<span style="color:orange">Users:</span>
To my knowledge, the only current practioner of this Form is Lord Tyrannus, seen in AOTC, who's precise moves overwhelm both Obi-Wan and Anakin in battle.

<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:green">Form III</span> </span>
This particular Form grew out of the relatively new technology of blasters. Blasters grew popular among the scum of the galaxy and the Jedi order had to develop a way to defend themselves against it. Enter Form III. This Form focused, initially, on laserblast deflection. However, as time went on, and laserblast deflection grew into less of a great lightsabre Form and into more of a basic technique among the Jedi, Form III became a philosophical statement of a Jedi's non-aggresive belief. Form III maximises defensive protection by using tight, efficient moves, exposing as little target area as possible. Form III became a highly refined technique of defense against, not only laserblasts, but from lightsabres also. A true Form III master is considered invincible.

<span style="color:orange">Users:</span>
After the death of Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan took up this Form as he thought Jinn's defense was insufficient to the Form VII stylings of Lord Maul. Even as he gets older, Obi-Wan is still a formidable practioner of this Form. In ANH, He cannot defeat Vader, but Vader never truly manages to get past his defenses either. Only when Kenobi sacrafices himself to become one with the force is Vader able to strike him down.

<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:green">Form IV </span></span>
Form IV is a very acrobatic Form utilizing the Jedi ability to run, jump and spin in phenoenal ways, using the Force. The flashiest of all Forms, a master of this Form will use elaborate moves, in the middle of which, a Jedi may only be a blur. This Form incorporates all of the ways the Force can assist a Jedi to do what would normally be physically imposible.

<span style="color:orange">Users: </span>
In TPM, both Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan use this Form on Lord Maul. Neither Kenobi nor Jinn had truly mastered it however, and suffered for it. However, Master Yoda, who, in his 800 years, ahs had plenty of time, has properly mastered. In AOTC, Yoda's Form IV mastery was a match for Lord Tyrannus, who's Form II style would have normaly had no problem dispatching a user of this Form.

<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:green">Form V</span> </span>
This Form was created during a very hectic time in the galaxy, and the Jedi were frequently forced to maintain the peace by force. This Form was created at the same time as Form IV, and was used by Jedi who believed Form IIi to be to passive. While a Form III master may never be destroyed by his opponent, neither would he necessarily defeat them. This Form focuses mainly on power. Some Jedi believed ths was a dedication to the power and strength needed to defeat your opponent. Others believe it is mearly "peace through superior firepower."

<span style="color:orange">Users: </span>
Anakin Skywalker studies this Form, possibly in his increasingly blinding quest for power. However his cocky nature gets in the way of him devoting himself completly to the Form and suffers for it in AOTC. As Vader, he continues to use this Form. Because his lack of movement allowed from the suit, he frequently defeats his enemy by overpowering them. Luke uses a variation of this Form on Vader in ROTJ as he has had practically no proper training. He adapts to the attacks from his father and uses them against him.

<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:green">Form VI</span> </span>
The most passive of Forms. This discipline, also known as the "Diplomat's Form", is the most lax in its demands of the Jedi. In the time of the Chancellorship of Palpatine, this is the Form used by most Jedi in the order, as it is the current standard. While it does allow for a Jedi to spend more of their time on their studies of diplomacy and negotiation, many Jedi masters of other Forms consider it to be insuficiently demanding.

<span style="color:orange">Users:</span>
Unfortunetly those Jedi masters may be right. In the Battle Of Geonosis, all the Jedi who utilize this Form and fight in the Arena, are killed.

<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:green">Form VII </span></span>
The ultimate discipline. Only a handful of Jedi have ever fully mastered this Form, one of them being Master Windu. To achieve and control this Form you have to be a high level master of many different Forms. Although it is the most difficult and demanding of the Forms, its rewards are well worth it. Form VII uses "bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearence as Form IV. The biggest advantage to this Form is its unpredictablity. It tries to overwhelm an opponent by using seemingly unconnected movements and attacks in short, rythmic bursts. It is not quite as linked as the more graceful Form IV. The Form also requires more enrgy and intensity than Form V since the focus of that Form is used more broadly. Form VII also utilizes a "deeper well of emotion" than Form V, but masters it more. On the outside, a Form VII master may give the presence of calmness, but on the inside, there is an inner emotional pressure that verges on explosion.

<span style="color:orange">Users:</span>
As Form VII is still in the experimental state, very few Jedi master it fully at the time of the Palpatine Chancellorship. Master Mace Windu is the only known practioner (and instructer) of this dangerous Form.

[T-bone]

does this belong in spoilers?

[Master_Mams]

Well I wasn't sure style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif , feel free to move it if needed.

[Momin327]

Found it! It's where I made my first post on the GS!

http://www.galacticsenate.com/index.php?sh...708&#entry22708 (http://www.galacticsenate.com/index.php?showtopic=1147&st=0&p=22708&#entry22708)

[Obidobi]

Merged....

[Ripley the Warmaster]

<span style="color:red">I'd got for Form II. Since my favourite era is Sith, Form II would be used the most then do to the great numbers of Jedi and Sith.</span>

[Kapit]

i would most likely use form 4

i can't sit still for very long anyways, so moving around a bunch would be cool

and while form 7 is really cool, i know i'd never be able to master it

[endoverclothing]

Id like 7.

[Leto Aldriss]

I've always been a fan of form V and VII, myself.

[Sam Kenobi]

Vapaad is awesome; Shatterpoint.

[Soontir Solo]

Form 1. If that is what Yoda uses than that is for me. There are no one who rivals Yoda in lightsaber combat.

[Kapit]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Dec 7 2004, 11:30 PM
Form 1. If that is what Yoda uses than that is for me. There are no one who rivals Yoda in lightsaber combat.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


yoda uses IV, the acrobatic style

[Soontir Solo]

Then I would use IV, on the first page of this thead it says 1 and I didn't bother to think about whether that was wrong or not.

[brookie]

the 8th one baby!!!! mace windu like a mo fo!!!

vapaad!(sp?) it takes you to the edge of the lightside!!! i like to walk on the wild side!

[goodwije]

gotta say form 4.. it just seems so much.. fun. I just love Yoda though so i am sure that swayed my choice.

I would be interested in how many Jedi never really master any form beyond form 1. And how many would have a completely unique form of fighting, although i would suppose all the form descriptions are general enough that any style would fit into one of the seven.

[Jedi_of_the_North]

I'd go with Mace's fighting style. Go in as an all out brawler Force pushing and slashing and striking as you go

[Max Starkiller]

If T would let us have a lightsabre forum, we'd have this and my LS thread in there.

[LegendoftheJedi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I'd go with Mace's fighting style. Go in as an all out brawler Force pushing and slashing and striking as you go [/b][/quote]

Same here. Bob and weave, man, bob and weave!

[Max Starkiller]

That Lightsabre forum would be a subforum of General Discussion.

[Yoda-in-meditation]

Definitely form VII, Mace Windu's form. I chose this cos it used little effort to produce devastating blows on the opponent.

[tavion]

I have to agree with you there, for me it was hard choice and i was thinking going form 1 with Yoda but i agree with you there

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif

Love Miranda

[Commander Zero]

Form V, almost like Yoda, but not hard to master, i think.

[Emperor Palpatine]

Form II. Swift, graceful, powerful, it is a great companion for one who studies the Sith arts. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/maulxmas.gif

[Cassus Fett]

i would make my own up
Form VIII, takes you in to the darkside, very powerful, strong attacks

lol

[goodwije]

the weird thing about these forms is that except for 1, which is supposed to be just the basics and 3 which is almost exclusivly defensive all of them could (and probably where) used by both Jedi and Sith.

[Emperor Palpatine]

The principles are the same for both the Jedi and the Sith, the technique and usage is just different.

[bigsllim]

I would study all styles, and work very hard to become moderately proficient at each one....

...but after that, I would focus my attention on VII. I think that knowing them all is integral to defeating an opponent. Say someone is a master of III. If you don't recognize that quickly, you will spend a great deal of time trying to beat someone that may be defensively unbeatable.

Definitely Form VII for me though. I like the whole idea of controlled fury with out going to the darkside. I also like that it isn't pretty, but the most effective, and you don't waste alot of motion.

But I'm just a lowly Newbie!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue2.gif

[goodwije]

that's right newbie.. what do they know.. just kidding welcome to the senate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I also like that it isn't pretty[/b][/quote]

all in the eye of the beholder i suppose, to me (and this is IRL fighting styles as well) the economy of movement and direct attack can be quite beautiful