Mon Mothma

[Bandersnatch]

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character...thma/index.html (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/monmothma/index.html)

I'm happy to see that Mon Mothma will appear in ROTS, in part because as a fan of the movies (I've never read the EU books), I've always wondered who the heck she was!

In ROTJ, this anonymous lady in white pops up and says "The time for our attack has come..." and suddenly we are given a monologue by someone we hadn't seen before but who is apparently in some sort of position of importance. Nobody ever says her name in ROTJ, she's just there... and gone.

So I'm wondering how big of a role she will have in ROTS, and will it be clear to someone seeing the films in order some day that the lady in ROTS is the same as the lady in ROTJ?

Any other thoughts about this character?

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/giveup.gif

[hunkyspunky]

It looks like in ROTS, she will form the very first remnants of the Rebellion along with Bail Organa and Padme Amidala (before she bites the dust). Mon Mothma is one of the key members of the Delegation of 2000 that petitions against the increasingly dictator-like powers of Palpatine.

[Longshot]

Hang on..........

I thought Mon Mothma WAS Padme!?!?!?!?!? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/chortle.gif

[JSunday]

All I have to say is I'm glad she's in this...and I think she's perfectly cast, physically speaking.

[Longshot]

Agreed the pic Ive seen does look very similar to the ROTJ version, casting and makeup depts have done well.

[Master_Mams]

Originally posted by JSunday@Feb 16 2005, 06:39 PM
All I have to say is I'm glad she's in this...and I think she's perfectly cast, physically speaking.
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Same for me style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif

[Mothman]

Originally posted by Longshot@Feb 16 2005, 10:11 AM
Hang on..........

I thought Mon Mothma WAS Padme!?!?!?!?!?* style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/chortle.gif
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Don't get me started.

[yakkolite]

Since finding out that Mon Mothma is in ROTS, and I believe there are rumors that she knows Padme, I have always wondered why she never talked about Padme with Leia. I'm sure that Leia would have run into Mon Mothma on Alderaan while she was growing up. The only conclusion I could think is Mon Mothma doesn't know that Leia is Padme's daughter but you would think that her name might of been mentioned at some time in her childhood.

[T-bone]

protection.
and remember, leia was only about 17-20ish (i forget the exact age) at the time of ANH too... it might not be good to tell her until later on in life when she has grown up a bit.

[T-bone]

my guess however is that Mothma doesn't know.
last she heard. padme died on polis massa...
to protect the kids, only bail yoda and obi-wan knew and told no one.

[yakkolite]

Don't you think that her name would have been mentioned at some time in her life. Padme was a very influential and respected person while she was alive. I could see them playing it off for her protection but you would think that Leia would know about her unless they made it a point to never mention Padme's name in public again.

[T-bone]

not if she didn't know.
there are a zillion senators.

[yakkolite]

Isn't there are rumor that Padme, Bail, and Mon Mothma get together to discuss their concerns about Palpatine rise to power in ROTS?

[T-bone]

I'm sure they do but it doesn't mean anyone told mon mothma that padme's children lived and where they are...

[Bandersnatch]

I still wonder why Mon Mothma is never addressed by name in ROTJ, not because of any connection to Padme or other characthers, but because I'm always confused about who the hell she is whenever I see ROTJ.

As one watches ROTS and then ROTJ, will they get the idea that it's the same lady?



style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/giveup.gif

[T-bone]

I think it's pretty insignificant, eh? Same lady, different lady, who cares?

Think about it - if it's the same character and you never know about it - does it matter?

Nope.

[yakkolite]

I'm sure she doesn't know that Padme had children but I can see her saying something like "I remember how Padme Amidala use to do this.... or use to do that.... " or "Hey, remember Padme Amidala and I wonder if we could use some of her political ideas for this situation." and Leia over hearing these things being said.

I wonder if the EU will discuss if Bail and Mon Mothma kept in touch after ROTS.

[Bandersnatch]

Originally posted by T'bone@Feb 16 2005, 02:49 PM
I think it's pretty insignificant, eh? Same lady, different lady, who cares?
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



Except that there's always something about that scene in ROTJ that bugs me.
Like, who the hell IS she??

This isn't some half-assed Star Trek series, where David Ogden Stiers can pop in to play a badly costumed schmuck that only people who are trekkies can understand.

Or maybe I should do as I've told so many others and just get a life...





style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/notify.gif

[Longshot]

Originally posted by Mothman@Feb 16 2005, 07:18 PM
Don't get me started.



Haha I was waiting for you to make an appearance on this thread! Now all we need is DblDwn and we got ourselves and old fashioned hoe-down.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/howdy.gif

[Mothman]

Originally posted by Longshot+Feb 17 2005, 04:28 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Longshot @ Feb 17 2005, 04:28 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Mothman@Feb 16 2005, 07:18 PM
Don't get me started.



Haha I was waiting for you to make an appearance on this thread! Now all we need is DblDwn and we got ourselves and old fashioned hoe-down.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/howdy.gif
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[/b][/quote]

Glad I could be there for ya! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bye.gif

[Gaelic-Jedi]

Originally posted by yakkolite@Feb 16 2005, 08:53 PM
I wonder if the EU will discuss if Bail and Mon Mothma kept in touch after ROTS.
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style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/artoo.gif

Im sure it will chief, the clone wars TPBS vol 1-5 i have been just reading already establish an excellent partnership between the two so I cant see EU not hitting on that some more especially seeing that events between III-IV are sure to be real ripe for consumption once lucas has dined with EPIII

[Sargoth]

Did Mon Mothma get cut entirely? I just got back from RotS and didn't see her anywhere in the film!

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Did Mon Mothma get cut entirely? I just got back from RotS and didn't see her anywhere in the film![/b][/quote]

I know, most of her scenes were cut. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

But no, she is in it, right after the crash of the Invisible Hand, she's one of the Senators greeting Palpatine, Anakin and Obi-Wan, if I'm not mistaken...

EDIT: She's still in it: style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/castcrew.html

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I wonder if the EU will discuss if Bail and Mon Mothma kept in touch after ROTS.[/b][/quote]

It already has, they were the co-founders of the Rebel Alliance (along with Garm bel Iblis), all that remains is for them to fill out the details of how that happened. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[T-bone]

yea she's in a wide shot ina crowd but that's about it really.
too bad.

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>yea she's in a wide shot ina crowd but that's about it really.
too bad.[/b][/quote]

Yeah. Right off the bat that was, for me, the biggest disappointment in an otherwise pretty good movie. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

EDIT: I know I'm weird... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[T-bone]

Then again, it's only a disappointment because we KNEW it was supposed to be there. The general public has no clue and no care.

Good thing!

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Then again, it's only a disappointment because we KNEW it was supposed to be there. The general public has no clue and no care.

Good thing![/b][/quote]

True. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif But then again, anyone who read the novelisation, or even the comic book, knew... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[T-bone]

which is probably, again, not the general public style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Tresk Im'nel]

Point taken. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif I guess it depends on how one defines "general public," but yeah, I guess most people who do are fans to some extent. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

I'm not really too badly disappointed by it, she is still in the novel, after all. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[T-bone]

she'll be on the DVD

[Tresk Im'nel]

Indeed. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[RollaFett]

Yeah, I'm certainly looking forward to the DVD to see what was cut besides her.

[star_shooter]

Yea kinda sux I guess, but this movie was so amazing I just dont care style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Gaelic-Jedi]

Originally posted by star_shooter@May 19 2005, 07:40 PM
but this movie was so amazing I just dont care style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif
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style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/artoo.gif

man aint that the truth I am stunned an UNREPENTANT MASTERPIECE.better than AOTC and TPM put together- no argument

[leiaorgana]

I totally missed her... I didn't saw her not even in the background!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohwell.gif

This weekend when I'm watching it for the 2nd time I'll pay more attention... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[JMAS]

Yeah, if you blink, you'll miss her. As T'bone said, she is the wide angle shot as Palpatine's transport is arriving back as the senate after the crash. You'll see someone dressed all in white. That was her.

[leiaorgana]

Yeah it's kind of funny if you think so, because I was trying not to miss a thing... i was showing my friend George Lucas Character (baron papanoida) and his daughter, etc... but I missed Mon Mothma!!!

Oh, well I 'll have to watch it all over again!!! LOL style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happydance.gif

[Tresk Im'nel]

Originally posted by JMAS@May 19 2005, 03:47 PM
You'll see someone dressed all in white. That was her.<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Kind of looks like Princess Leia in ANH, only with short, red hair. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Originally posted by leiaorgana@May 19 2005, 08:00 PM
Oh, well I 'll have to watch it all over again!!! LOL style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happydance.gif<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Any excuse for that is a good excuse, IMO. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif I'm going back on Monday, after re-watching TPM and AOTC over the weekend. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Otis_Frampton]

I was looking forward to seeing her in the film, also.

For story reasons and also for "hey look at that really hot redhead in Star Wars" reasons.

I'm partial to the red ones.

-Otis

[JLX-1138]

When Lucas says he cut almost everything not close to Anakin's story, well, he just does it. It bothered me at first not seeing her, except for one second, but after thinking about it, I don't care. The only 'Rebellion' part I miss is Padmé's line, after the declaration of the Empire, when she said to Bail to wait for the right moment, to side with Palpy, it may takes 20 years to achieve their goal...(I don't know if it was in the script)

After all, do you think the general public would have made the connection with her in RoTJ? I don't think so, so the cut is justified, even if as Anakin: I want more!

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I was looking forward to seeing her in the film, also.

For story reasons and also for "hey look at that really hot redhead in Star Wars" reasons.[/b][/quote]

LOL! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif Um...well...there is a reason for my current avatar... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif

But mainly I like her character and the continuity linkages she provides. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif But at least we do see her. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Master Magnus]

She could be seen standing in the background at the Senate Office complex where Palpatine, Anakin and Obi-Wan arrives after having landed the remains of the Invisible Hand.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

Originally posted by Master Magnus@Jun 20 2005, 01:59 PM
She could be seen standing in the background at the Senate Office complex where Palpatine, Anakin and Obi-Wan arrives after having landed the remains of the Invisible Hand.
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I'll have to look again. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif

[Ant]

I did not recognise her in the film

[Raganork8]

shes defiantly there.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

I hope so.

[padme4ever]

I jumping back to the theory that Padme is still alive, that she took over the role of Mon Mothma. Why I still think that is because in Epsode III she has red hair and in Episode VI she has brown hair. How can that be explained?

[P-Ray]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ok.gif Alrighty then!

[JMAS]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif PUHlease! Come on. Her hair is an auburn color in Episode III and in Episode VI it is slightly darker shade of auburn. She's dead. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skullwink.gif

[MANVERU]

man oh man.

The theories that people come up with today!

[Kommandant Felix]

Geez...its pretty sad to see some people coming up with trivial conspiracy theories about star wars, that shows you are a super geek

[MANVERU]

I wonder if a thing called grey hair is existant in the SW universe.
Cos that's clearly what Mothma has in the OT

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Why I still think that is because in Epsode III she has red hair and in Episode VI she has brown hair. How can that be explained?[/b][/quote]

It's an auburn-red in both, just darker in ROTJ. That happens sometimes, my hair is darker now than when I was a small boy...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The theories that people come up with today![/b][/quote]

Actually, it's an old one that seems to keep coming back no matter what... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[BoHeDia]

Originally posted by Kommandant Felix@Nov 9 2005, 07:49 PM
Geez...its pretty sad to see some people coming up with trivial conspiracy theories about star wars, that shows you are a super geek
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that comment was uncalled for felix...

[billytheskink]

The lack of Ackbar in ROTS was infinitely more dissapointing.

[Mothman]

Don't get me started on the Padme is Mon Mothma deal again. I've made peace with that and put it behind me (more or less).


Originally posted by billytheskink@Nov 10 2005, 04:27 PM
The lack of Ackbar in ROTS was infinitely more dissapointing.
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Regarding Ackbar.....in the deleted scene with the rebel scum Senators in Palpatine's office, isn't that Ackbar (or someone else of his species) standing behind one of the seated senators???

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>isn't that Ackbar (or someone else of his species) standing behind one of the seated senators???[/b][/quote]

That's someone else of his species (Mon Calamari), namely Senator Meena Tills: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/meenatills/

IIRC, Ackbar was an engineer before he was enslaved by the Empire, so his inclusion in ROTS would have been difficult to justify.

[billytheskink]

Originally posted by Tresk Im'nel@Nov 12 2005, 09:59 AM
IIRC, Ackbar was an engineer before he was enslaved by the Empire, so his inclusion in ROTS would have been difficult to justify.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

True, but the fact that he's Ackbar should be justification enough.

And Mon Motha should have been in ROTS much more (with lines and stuff, she couldn't have screwed it up more than the "nooooooo..."), perhaps some Bothans could have died as well.

[Leiafan]

Mon Mothma was a redhead in ROTJ. Her hair is simply a darker shade of red. It happens. Luke's hair gets darker as the OT progresses. So does Anakin's as the PT progresses.

I understand why the political scenes were cut from ROTS, but nonetheless, I liked them and hope they're reintegrated into the film in a future release. They don't add quite as much to the movie as the Naberrie family scenes do to AOTC, but they are good scenes. Plus there's the added bonus of contradicting the crap in the EU of how the Rebellion was singlehandedly founded by some ex-junkie bimbo.

[Tresk Im'nel]

Originally posted by Leiafan@Nov 12 2005, 10:33 AM
I understand why the political scenes were cut from ROTS, but nonetheless, I liked them and hope they're reintegrated into the film in a future release.<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I agree, the political scenes in ROTS were excellent. I'd love to see them reincorporated if Lucas ever decides to do extended editions of the Saga (and I wish he would).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>They don't add quite as much to the movie as the Naberrie family scenes do to AOTC, but they are good scenes.[/b][/quote]

Hmm. Interesting... While the Naberrie scenes added a good deal of depth to Padmé's character and her relationship with Anakin, I personally feel that the scenes with the first stirrings of rebellion in ROTS were more important to the overall plot...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Plus there's the added bonus of contradicting the crap in the EU of how the Rebellion was singlehandedly founded by some ex-junkie bimbo.[/b][/quote]

Well, I don't like Bria Tharen either... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif But it would be an exaggeration to say that even the HST had her "single-handedly" founding the Rebellion. Preceding and subsequent material (including ROTS) all supports the Rebellion having been co-founded by Senators Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and Garm Bel Iblis. Tharen's role can safely be said to have been peripheral, and primarily that of an intermediary...

[Sam]

Originally posted by billytheskink@Nov 12 2005, 12:54 PM
And Mon Motha should have been in ROTS much more (with lines and stuff, she couldn't have screwed it up more than the "nooooooo...")
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Your wish is my command. How about this alternative version of the scene featuring Mon Mothma?

INT. PADMÉ’S SENATE OFFICE – DAY

It is smaller but better lit than the Chancellor’s office. Seated on couches are Padmé and her fellow Senators Bail Organa, MON MOTHMA, FANG ZAR, TERR TANEEL and GIDDEAN DANU.

PADMÉ
Chancellor Palpatine is one of my oldest advisors. He was Senator from my planet, when I was Queen. He taught me nearly everything I know about the Senate. So, it’s truly hard for me to believe it has come to this, but it has. I don’t know the Chancellor anymore. He’s going down a path I cannot follow, and taking the Republic with him, I’m afraid . . . to a very dark place.

GIDDEAN DANU
I agree. The Constitution is in shreds. Amendment after amendment, executive directives bordering on martial law, abuse of our citizens, appointment of Governors to oversee all the star systems.

FANG ZAR
When did this happen?

BAIL
The decree was posted just this morning.

TERR TANEEL
Do you think he will dismantle the Senate?

MON MOTHMA
Why bother? As a practical matter, the Senate no longer exists, and we let it happen.

PADMÉ
We can still do some things. For example, the Chancellor’s move to take over the Jedi Council has to get through committee first. I’m doing everything I can to slow it down.

MON MOTHMA
But not to stop it. That’s because you can’t stop it.
(to the others)
The Chancellor has played the Senators well. They know where the power lies, and they will do whatever it takes to share in it . . . Which leads me to wonder as to the true motives of our Lady Chairman here.

This catches Padmé off-guard.

BAIL
(to Mon Mothma)
Senator, please don’t be disrespectful.

PADMÉ
No, it’s all right. Everyone is free to speak their mind here.
(to Mon Mothma)
Please continue, Senator.

MON MOTHMA
With all due respect, Senator Amidala, you have shared in much of the Chancellor’s power yourself. You are the youngest ever to head what, in wartime, is the most powerful committee in the Senate. Your background on Naboo partly explains it. But your record, on what’s led to the crisis we face today, is mixed at best.

PADMÉ
I did oppose this war.

MON MOTHMA
And then you supported it.

PADMÉ
I supported the Army, when it went into harm’s way. I continued to oppose and work to change the policy. But, I agree it’s no longer enough.

MON MOTHMA
Then there are your past actions, which helped Palpatine. Was it not your call for a vote of No Confidence in his predecessor, which enabled Palpatine’s rise to Chancellor?
(before she can answer)
And was it not your appointment of the Gungan as your proxy, which led to the Chancellor being given the emergency power he now abuses?

PADMÉ
Are you finished, Senator?

Mon Mothma nods.

PADMÉ (cont’d)
Then my answer may surprise you.
(lowers her eyes)
Those were decisions that I regret to this day . . . which makes me more responsible than most for making it right.
(looks straight at her)
I’m not a perfect person. But are you familiar with what’s been said about making the perfect the enemy of the good? You need me, as much as I need you, if we are to stop the Chancellor’s power-taking from becoming absolute.

BAIL
(stands, to all)
Recriminations will get us nowhere. It is time to act. Senator Mothma and I, and now Senator Amidala with us, are putting together an organization.

PADMÉ
The existence of which must be kept in the strictest confidence, until it is ready. The Chancellor is very good at finding out things. We must proceed cautiously, so as not to tip his hand, before we can counter it.

OTHERS
(overlapping)
Agreed.

BAIL
That means no discussing this with anyone, without everyone in the group agreeing. Not even with family . . . those closest to you.

OTHERS
(overlapping)
Agreed.

PADMÉ
(lowers eyes)
Agreed.

[Leiafan]

Originally posted by Tresk Im'nel@Nov 12 2005, 07:46 PM
Well, I don't like Bria Tharen either... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
I loathe her.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>But it would be an exaggeration to say that even the HST had her "single-handedly" founding the Rebellion. Preceding and subsequent material (including ROTS) all supports the Rebellion having been co-founded by Senators Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and Garm Bel Iblis.[/b][/quote]
ROTS doesn't support Bel Iblis co-founding the Rebellion. He's nowhere in the movie, thank goodness. I am so sick of EU authors putting their pet characters into major events in the movies. Zahn and Crispin were the worst offenders in that area.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Tharen's role can safely be said to have been peripheral, and primarily that of an intermediary...
[/b][/quote]
Her entry in TOS's databank identifies her as one of the founders of the Rebellion (even though by the events of ROTS she'd be, what, 9?), likewise "Tatooine Ghost." She's also one of perhaps 20 people who stole the Death Star plans, as well as Han's "first twue wuv" and so blindingly beautiful that everything with a hint of testosterone turns to jelly in her presence. Even Boba Fett. He likes her SO MUCH he can't go through with his plans to kill her. Han pines over her for ten years (even while with other women) and names his ship after her. Everyone adores her and thinks she's the greatest thing in the universe.

What a frickin' Mary Sue.

[DarthSolo]

ROTS (DELETED SCENES) say nothing about the formation of the actual Rebellion. It puts some characters into place that will form the Rebellion, but all the senators in the deleted scenes did was form a coalition to stop Palpatine. They didn't take up arms. They never talked about taking up arms. They were going to do it THROUGH THE SENATE. The Rebellion took up arms, and bel Iblis was there when that happened. Nothing in the EU was contradicted as far as the Rebellion goes. Sorry.

And, not everyone adores Bria Tharen. I don't, and there's plenty of fictional characters who don't. Please refrain from putting words in the mouths of the masses.

[Suzanne (ex CoS Leia)]

Actually I don't know many people who do like Bria Tharen. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

And there's a difference between being part of the development of the opposition to the Empire scenes and being part of the origins of the armed rebellion process.

As for the birth of the rebellion scenes - I see them as just that, the birth. It's the sowing of the seeds of opposition that will take time to germinate and grow into armed rebellion. I personally don't see it as being inconsistent with the EU, and I consider the Bria Tharen involvement to be an indiction of her own views of her involvement in the rebellion, not necessarily an indicator that she was a pivotal focus.

I am looking forward to seeing, either in the proposed tv series or in the EU, more stories about how Mon Mothma and the others, whoever they may be, took the rebels to the point where they were ready for their run against the Death Star 19 years after these deleted scenes...

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>ROTS doesn't support Bel Iblis co-founding the Rebellion[/b][/quote]

Yes, it does. Read the novelisation, which was personally line-edited and approved by George Lucas. Bel Iblis is mentioned in the novelisation and Lucas approved his inclusion.

[Suzanne (ex CoS Leia)]

Originally posted by Tresk Im'nel@Nov 13 2005, 01:37 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>ROTS doesn't support Bel Iblis co-founding the Rebellion

Yes, it does. Read the novelisation, which was personally line-edited and approved by George Lucas. Bel Iblis is mentioned in the novelisation and Lucas approved his inclusion.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]

Ah, good point - how could I have forgotten about this? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

The novelisation does also have a little more exposition on Mon Mothma and the birth of the rebellion - but still consistent with it being only at that pre-rebellion stage.

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I am so sick of EU authors putting their pet characters into major events in the movies.[/b][/quote]

Even when it's entirely logical? Do you have a problem with, for instance, Tycho Celchu flying the second A-wing to break off during the Death Star tunnel run in ROTJ? Because there are some instances where not every character taking part in an event appears onscreen in the film...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Her entry in TOS's databank identifies her as one of the founders of the Rebellion (even though by the events of ROTS she'd be, what, 9?), likewise "Tatooine Ghost."[/b][/quote]

Well, that can still reasonably be interpreted as her having been a founding member. Even RD makes it clear that she was not a major leader in the way the three Senators were...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What a frickin' Mary Sue[/b][/quote]

Erm. No argument here... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And, not everyone adores Bria Tharen. I don't, and there's plenty of fictional characters who don't. Please refrain from putting words in the mouths of the masses[/b][/quote]

I'm not absolutely certain, and I certainly don't mean to put words in her mouth, but I think Leiafan meant that in in-universe terms referring to the way the characters in the HST treat her. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I consider the Bria Tharen involvement to be an indiction of her own views of her involvement in the rebellion, not necessarily an indicator that she was a pivotal focus.[/b][/quote]

Well put. I think we can perhaps take the statements of Bria's importance from "a certain point of view" as reflecting Bria's own opinion rather than the objective facts of the situation... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Leiafan]

Originally posted by Tresk Im'nel@Nov 12 2005, 10:37 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>ROTS doesn't support Bel Iblis co-founding the Rebellion

Yes, it does. Read the novelisation, which was personally line-edited and approved by George Lucas. Bel Iblis is mentioned in the novelisation and Lucas approved his inclusion.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]
But the movie doesn't, and the movie trumps the novelization.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Actually I don't know many people who do like Bria Tharen.

And there's a difference between being part of the development of the opposition to the Empire scenes and being part of the origins of the armed rebellion process.

As for the birth of the rebellion scenes - I see them as just that, the birth. It's the sowing of the seeds of opposition that will take time to germinate and grow into armed rebellion. I personally don't see it as being inconsistent with the EU, [/b][/quote]
It's completely inconsistent with the EU, just like the origins/construction of the Death Star and a dozen other things (Clone Wars timeline, C3PO's age, etc.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>and I consider the Bria Tharen involvement to be an indiction of her own views of her involvement in the rebellion, not necessarily an indicator that she was a pivotal focus.[/b][/quote]
Except that's how she's portrayed in the EU. She is listed as one of the founders and is portrayed as vital to its formation. She even dies in a Mary Sueish fashion: as a martyr, with everyone grieving over her loss. Oh, and of course, that has the added bonus of creating "doubt" as to whether Han would've fallen for Leia if Bria hadn't died. Crispin swears she never meant to undermine the Han/Leia romance. Sure, Crispin. Sure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I am looking forward to seeing, either in the proposed tv series or in the EU, more stories about how Mon Mothma and the others, whoever they may be, took the rebels to the point where they were ready for their run against the Death Star 19 years after these deleted scenes...[/b][/quote]
I wouldn't mind seeing it either, as long as it follows what the movies portray, not what the EU portrays.

Unfortunately, I can easily see the TV series becoming "The Mara Jade Chronicles" or something equally obnoxious. Del Rey has a mother lode of material to explore -- like Luke and Leia meeting their Naberrie cousins, aunt, grandparents if they're still alive. But are they exploring that? Noooooo...they're commissioning a novel about Mara Jade "at the height of her powers as Emperor's Hand." You can be sure that Zahn will fully exercise his hatred for Vader as a character, with Vader being portrayed as some simpleton next to Mara (like Luke was in "Survivor's Quest," feeling like a country bumpkin next to her), while Mara will practically be Palpatine's backup Sith apprentice -- but at the same time she will NOT BE EVEN SLIGHTLY DARK.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not absolutely certain, and I certainly don't mean to put words in her mouth, but I think Leiafan meant that in in-universe terms referring to the way the characters in the HST treat her.[/b][/quote]
Yep. That's exactly what I was saying, Tresk. Everyone in the HST thinks she's the greatest thing in the universe, though why, I couldn't say. She seemed pretty weak, dull, and selfish to me. And no woman is that beautiful.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Well put. I think we can perhaps take the statements of Bria's importance from "a certain point of view" as reflecting Bria's own opinion rather than the objective facts of the situation...[/b][/quote]
Except the TOS entry and the reference in "Tatooine Ghost" are not told from Bria's perspective. They both clearly say she is one of the founders of the Rebellion. They are putting her at the level of Mon Mothma and Bail Organa.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Even when it's entirely logical?[/b][/quote]
Logic is in the eye of the beholder.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Do you have a problem with, for instance, Tycho Celchu flying the second A-wing to break off during the Death Star tunnel run in ROTJ? Because there are some instances where not every character taking part in an event appears onscreen in the film...[/b][/quote]
I have a problem with authors' pet EU characters being inserted into vital events in the movies -- like they were the ones who REALLY stole the Death Star plans, or they were the ones who REALLY destroyed DSII, or whatever. I realize it's a big galaxy, but I like the movie characters to be the heroes. I think that an author inserting their own pet characters into vital events of the movies, or even making their characters the "reason" why the movie characters do what they do and say what they say, is nothing more than pure egotism.

And that's not even the half of it. The authors feel the need to completely reshape and reinvent the story to fit their own personal philosophies. And it seemed like the NJO was one long revenge fic against Leia, degrading and humiliating her so that Mara could be eased into her place as primary heroine. Han and Leia's romance was likewise degraded and insulted so that Luke/Mara could be eased into their place as primary couple. I think it was fully Del Rey's intention to make Han and Leia's separation permanent -- I've heard that "Balance Point" was originally titled "Breaking Point" and was supposed to contain the beginnings of their divorce -- but they were stopped at the eleventh hour by someone high up at LFL, perhaps even Lucas himself.

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>But the movie doesn't, and the movie trumps the novelization[/b][/quote]

Yes, it does, but the movie doesn't actually contradict the novelisation in this instance, so that's essentially irrelevant to this discussion. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Leiafan]

Originally posted by Tresk Im'nel@Nov 13 2005, 01:56 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>But the movie doesn't, and the movie trumps the novelization

Yes, it does, but the movie doesn't actually contradict the novelisation in this instance, so that's essentially irrelevant to this discussion. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]
It's quite relevant. The movie trumps the novelization, regardless of "contradictions." There is no Bel Iblis in the movie. Just like there is no Mara Jade in ROTJ, and Han isn't mourning the loss of his first twue wuv in ANH. There's no Maw that the Death Star is being built in, no Quicky Quacky Qux or whatever her name is. C3PO is not 300 years old in the OT.

Anyway...like I said earlier, if you like the EU, knock yourselves out. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy it at all. If you do, that's great. But please don't ask me to accept EU explanations for events in the movies. There is one thing that completists and purists alike agree upon: the movies are absolute canon. For the completist, that means that the EU is part of the story. For the purist, it means that only the movies are the story, and the EU can be taken or left as one wishes as a possible extension of the story.

Speaking for myself, I will never, EVER accept the idea that Han "waited three years to pursue Leia" because he was so heartbroken over Bria. Both Han's creator and portrayer have said in no uncertain terms that Leia was the first woman Han loved. That's loved, not had sex with. I have no problem with Han having had girlfriends prior to Leia -- but Leia was the first woman he loved.

I will also never, EVER accept Mara Jade as a SW character. She, to me, embodies what is wrong with the EU. I despise how Luke has become since marrying her, and I deeply resent the efforts to make her supplant Leia as the premier heroine -- even Leia's kids suddenly and out of nowhere hate or ignore their mother and glom onto Mara, especially that brat Jaina. I deeply resent how Mara suddenly became a Jedi master while Leia became "half-trained and uncertain in the Force." Luke forgets that Leia exists, when he's not dissing her behind her back with his shrew wife. Han doesn't care enough to go and check on his tortured, bleeding wife when she's brought aboard his ship, and Leia's kids shrug it off. But when Mara's in pain, oh, let's shut the galaxy down! The Solo kids, the same ones who couldn't have cared less when their mother was tortured nearly to death, are bent over, crying, when they feel Mara's labor pains!

Further evidence that the EU's version of the GFFA revolves around Mara: Leia's son is brutally killed, but what is Mara thinking about? How everyone's grief might make her kid slightly uncomfortable! Luke can't even be bothered to comfort his sister; he's too busy enveloping Mara in his love, and "feeling her terror" at leaving Ben alone with those horrible grieving parents, Han and Leia!

Then Leia's brat of a daughter, who can't bootlick Mara enough, treats Leia like garbage when Anakin's dead body is brought to her. She doesn't even bother to hug her mother when she leaves, though she does hug her dad, although it was her dad who yelled at the little brat and her mother who defended her (though she didn't deserve it -- Leia should've hauled off and slapped that brat's face until her nose bled). Jaina is basically Mara Jr. in the NJO, and the insulting thing is, we're supposed to agree with her when she mouths off, not think she's a little snot who has a permanent case of PMS.

Now, there are certain things in the movies, all of them, that I am not crazy about, or that I think could've been done differently. But I accept them, because they are the SW story. I don't accept the EU, or at least, I don't accept most of it.

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>It's quite relevant. The movie trumps the novelization, regardless of "contradictions." There is no Bel Iblis in the movie.[/b][/quote]

It's only relevant in that it means Bel Iblis' presence doesn't have the ironclad G-level status of actual onscreen inclusion. However, in the novel he was not actually present in any of the scenes, merely alluded to, therefore his absence from the film is not necessarily indicative of anything. To quote (or at least paraphrase) something one of my old history profs used to be fond of saying "absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence." More to the point, Lucas' personal endorsement of the novelisation carries a good deal of weight with me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>C3PO is not 300 years old in the OT.[/b][/quote]

Actually, parts of him are centuries old. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif Remember how he was built... Sometimes adjustments need to be made for older material to fit, true, but that doesn't invalidate the continuity status of the EU in general.

And let's not forget that the films themselves have contradictions that need to be ironed out, witness the "a thousand generations" (ANH) / "a thousand years" (AOTC) wrinkle. That's all been sorted out now, but it shows that the EU isn't the only area that occasionally needs adjustment to fit...

[Leiafan]

Originally posted by Tresk Im'nel@Nov 13 2005, 02:28 AM
It's only relevant in that it means Bel Iblis' presence doesn't have the ironclad G-level status of actual onscreen inclusion.
Which is all I need. He's not one of the founders of the Rebellion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>However, in the novel he was not actually present in any of the scenes, merely alluded to, therefore his absence from the film is not necessarily indicative of anything.[/b][/quote]
It's indicative of him not being one of the founders of the Rebellion. Now, if you want to think he is, fine. But I don't, nor does anyone who either doesn't read the EU or doesn't think it's part of the SW story.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>To quote (or at least paraphrase) something one of my old history profs used to be fond of saying "absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence." More to the point, Lucas' personal endorsement of the novelisation carries a good deal of weight with me.[/b][/quote]
Lucas's own quotes with regards to the EU: "It's a parallel universe that exists outside my own" and "The movies are gospel, everything else is gossip" carry as much weight with me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Actually, parts of him are centuries old. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/b][/quote]
ROTFL!! Oh, I love that particular bit of continuity spackle. It's almost as funny as the attempts to make Boba Fett's backstory fit in perfectly with all the Journeyman Protector/Jaster Mareel stuff.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Remember how he was built...[/b][/quote]
In a junkshop by a 9-year-old Anakin Skywalker. That would mean he's 30-odd years old in the OT, not 300 years old.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Sometimes adjustments need to be made for older material to fit, true,[/b][/quote]
And they're getting ever more comical. Why not simply accept that this or that is a mistake, and move on? What's the point of all the contortions and just-plain-stupid EUxplanations?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>but that doesn't invalidate the continuity status of the EU in general.[/b][/quote]
No, this does: the movies are absolute canon. The EU has its own continuity, which is just fine. Please, LFL, I beg you...quit with the retrofitting. Let the two stories co-exist side-by-side, the way they were originally intended to (i.e., the disclaimer on the hardcover dustjackets on Zahn's original three books).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And let's not forget that the films themselves have contradictions that need to be ironed out, witness the "a thousand generations" (ANH) / "a thousand years" (AOTC) wrinkle. That's all been sorted out now, but it shows that the EU isn't the only area that occasionally needs adjustment to fit...[/b][/quote]
Ah yes, the old "the movies do it too!" justification.

I agree, the movies aren't seamless, despite the best efforts of Lucas & Co. I never said that the SW movies are the greatest masterpieces ever put on screen; they have flaws just like every other movie ever made. However, that doesn't magically make the EU's contradictions less of contradictions, or mean I have to accept the EU as part of the story.

[billytheskink]

no dead Bothans, Sam?

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I wouldn't mind seeing it either, as long as it follows what the movies portray, not what the EU portrays. [/b][/quote]

I'm sure it will follow what the films portray.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Unfortunately, I can easily see the TV series becoming "The Mara Jade Chronicles" or something equally obnoxious[/b][/quote]

I doubt that. All the current rumours point to Boba Fett and bounty hunters being central to it...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Del Rey has a mother lode of material to explore -- like Luke and Leia meeting their Naberrie cousins, aunt, grandparents if they're still alive. But are they exploring that? Noooooo...[/b][/quote]

Give them time. Luke and Leia just found out their mother's true identity, I'm sure they'll get there in time. The second book in LOTF is titled Bloodlines, after all... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I have a problem with authors' pet EU characters being inserted into vital events in the movies -- like they were the ones who REALLY stole the Death Star plans, or they were the ones who REALLY destroyed DSII, or whatever. I realize it's a big galaxy, but I like the movie characters to be the heroes. I think that an author inserting their own pet characters into vital events of the movies, or even making their characters the "reason" why the movie characters do what they do and say what they say, is nothing more than pure egotism. [/b][/quote]

Who are you referring to having "really" destroyed the DSII? To my knowledge that's never been contested, it was destroyed by General Lando Calrissian and Commander Wedge Antilles. Period.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I think it was fully Del Rey's intention to make Han and Leia's separation permanent -- I've heard that "Balance Point" was originally titled "Breaking Point" and was supposed to contain the beginnings of their divorce -- but they were stopped at the eleventh hour by someone high up at LFL, perhaps even Lucas himself.[/b][/quote]

Where did you hear that? If it's true I'm very glad they changed that. But at either rate it's a direction that was not taken and the Han/Leia relationship is now as strong as ever and Leia's Jedi status is being played up to a degree I'm very pleased with. I haven't read the early NJO yet, and I must say I'll probably be bothered by aspects of it, but I think the end of the NJO and DN so far have done a good job of putting it right...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Anyway...like I said earlier, if you like the EU, knock yourselves out. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy it at all. If you do, that's great. But please don't ask me to accept EU explanations for events in the movies. There is one thing that completists and purists alike agree upon: the movies are absolute canon. For the completist, that means that the EU is part of the story. For the purist, it means that only the movies are the story, and the EU can be taken or left as one wishes as a possible extension of the story[/b][/quote]

Indeed. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif I understand and I agree there's absolutely nothing wrong with a purist view that is limited solely to G-level Canon. It was not my intention to ask you to accept the EU, I was merely disputing the claim that the newest G-level Canon, as you put it, "crap[s] all over" the EU continuity...

[Tresk Im'nel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>It's indicative of him not being one of the founders of the Rebellion. Now, if you want to think he is, fine. But I don't, nor does anyone who either doesn't read the EU or doesn't think it's part of the SW story.[/b][/quote]

That's fine. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif It can be interpreted that way, and that's okay. All I'm saying is that there's nothing dramatically "wrong" with my interpretation as a result of it...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Lucas's own quotes with regards to the EU: "It's a parallel universe that exists outside my own" and "The movies are gospel, everything else is gossip" carry as much weight with me.[/b][/quote]

Again, that's fine. But I think the fact that GL has knowingly (indeed, deliberately) included EU material in the Prequels as he saw fit, and his personal approval of the C-level Continuity-heavy novelisation, are more than enough vindication of the four-level Canon system for my view to be equally legitimate in my view...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>In a junkshop by a 9-year-old Anakin Skywalker. That would mean he's 30-odd years old in the OT, not 300 years old[/b][/quote]

True, he's 30, but that doesn't preclude some of his parts being older, or him having some confusion over that. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>No, this does: the movies are absolute canon.[/b][/quote]

From your point of view, it does, but not from mine. The movies are absolute canon, I never disputed that. I'm glad they are. But that does not invalidate the EU's status as secondary canon for those of us who choose to incorporate it. There's nothing wrong with choosing to limit your view of the Star Wars universe mostly, or entirely, to G-level Canon, but the fact that G-level trumps all else doesn't invalidate the status of the subordinate levels, for those of us who choose to accept them... Each to their own. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Ah yes, the old "the movies do it too!" justification.

I agree, the movies aren't seamless, despite the best efforts of Lucas & Co. I never said that the SW movies are the greatest masterpieces ever put on screen; they have flaws just like every other movie ever made. However, that doesn't magically make the EU's contradictions less of contradictions, or mean I have to accept the EU as part of the story.[/b][/quote]

Indeed. And I never intended to imply that somehow excuses the EU's inconsistencies, I merely meant to point out that inconsistencies are bound to creep in to any series that's developed over such a long time, and not just in the EU. When that happens, we do the best to get around it...

And again, if you don't want to accept the EU as part of the story, that's fine by me. I had no intention of forcing you to, I was only defending my point of view.

No hard feelings. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Sam]

Originally posted by billytheskink@Nov 13 2005, 03:31 AM
no dead Bothans, Sam?
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

I'm afraid I don't know much about conjuring Bothans, so it was only the Mon Mothma part of your request that I could fill. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[James William Alexander Atreides]

It's too bad we didn't see her much in ROTS.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

She was actually quite hot when she was younger. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohhlala.gif

[Tresk Im'nel]

^Nice to know I'm not the only one who thought that after ROTS... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[davidpeace]

Originally posted by James William Alexander Atreides@Feb 2 2006, 11:08 PM
She was actually quite hot when she was younger. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohhlala.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


heck yeah!

[Orandhite]

You know, I never really minded that Mon Mothma just appeared out of nowhere in ROTJ. The thing I always loved about Star Wars was that you had characters that you had never met before and that were not entirely involved with the story, but that alluded to the Star Wars universe being so much larger than just what you saw in the films.

We saw everything from the point of view of the main characters, so we only meet the people that the main characters meet at the time the movies are set. So having these characters that only make a small appearance but that help give the story that extra level of realism (that the entire galaxy is not saved by a handful of heroes, but by many more dedicated rebels) is okay by me. And that then allows offshoots such as the EU, comics and the upcoming TV series to take what we already know and add to it (for those of us who are interested in that sort of thing ;)).