George Lucas a Political Activist?

[dexterlennon]

must give props to "jedibendu" for posting this on tbone's website, where it got no attention:

title: "George Lucas is the GREATEST political activist in history."

"I've always tried to separate Star Wars from pure sci-fi. Star Wars is a genre unto itself. But if you take what sci-fi represents - that being political and social commentary on society at large - then George, while not being too subtle, has reached probably the largest audience ever to share his views. Consider:
A conniving, evil senator manipulates the electoral process to ascend to the presidency. He uses the threat of a powerful foreign enemy to start a war which conceivable will go on for years. In fact, he's actually in league with the enemy, manipulating both sides to serve his own megalomaniacal desires. He then uses the war to expand his own political powers and to massively expand the military machine, ultimately resulting in an omnipresent, oppressive totalitarian regime.
Now if you consider Star Wars..."

well, what do you all think??? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Tovor]

Thanks for sharing this, dexterlennon.

JediBendu, it seems as if what was quoted was the beginning of your statement and not the full message. *I'm interested in where you were going with this. *Care to complete it to spark discussion from others on it? *Thanks! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[JediBendu]

The New World Order is being ushered in as we speak. Prior to Sep 11, I was trying to work out the significance of Bush winning the election by a legal challenge, and what appears to be a complete fabrication of the results. Initially I thought it was just a corporate takeover of the US gov - the Bush/Chenney/Powell triad has some 'interesting' roots, the least of which being Bush Sr was Nixon's running mate.
Now I'm a little concerned.
Orwell would have been proud - he got it completely right. :scratchchin:

[JediBendu]

I was unsure whether to follow this line of thought but I've had it with this planet. *We're all mindless *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif *sheep who don't know and don't care what's going on.

George Lucas has been telling us what is about to happen, and the fact that it's happening. *Why? *Because his mate Steven Spielberg is in on it. *

The global war on terrorism isn't sustainable, sure the definition will change but eventually another super power like China will step up to challenge the rulling elite. *I'll preface this with a quote from Caesar:

Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.

The ruling oligarchies need a ongoing threat to ensure fear is permanently instilled in the populace. It cannot be found [permanently] on this planet, rather, off-planet. *A completely manufactured threat from outer space has been building for years. *Look how easily it was to give up civil liberties after only a few thousand deaths from a couple of planes (I'm not dismissing the event -all death is abhorent). *Imagine what would happen if a fabricated alien threat destroyed a few hundred thousand lives, even a million?

What's Spielberg got to do with it? *He's been preparing the masses for accepting the possibility before it happens. *Has anyone noticed how many aliens in tv commercials? *They're a part of our culture - we accept their presence without any concrete proof. *(I won't go into real ufo's here)

Every year since 1954, the secretive Bilderberg Group (named after the hotel they first met in the Netherlands), comprising elite powerbrokers from Europe and North America, has met to discuss, and influence, the changing global, political, economic and social landscape. Dotted amongst the usual suspects of Rockefeller, Kissinger and Soros etc. we see the presence of Steven Spielberg. Spielberg attended the 1999 Bilderberg meeting held at Sintra, Portugal. [ http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17083 ] What business does Spielberg, a chieftain of the 'entertainment' industry have secretly mingling with international bankers, military intelligence and world political leaders?

Since the 1970's, Spielberg has directed or produced seven of the top twenty grossing films of all time. Throughout his career we see an obsession with the alien/UFO/space theme. From the 1977 Close Encounters of the Third Kind to ET in 1982, to Deep Impact in 1998. All depict an invasion from outer space.

In February 1997 a leading light in the British film industry leaked the story that Spielberg and executives of his company DreamWorks had secretly met with senior Pentagon officials in Los Angeles. The officials told Spielberg to "stop everything" and produce a movie whose subject matter involved meteors and/or comets. One year later Deep Impact was in the can. The film describes a comet hurtling towards earth and the fight for who has the privilege of access to an underground bunker.

Commencing in December 2002, the SciFi Channel will screen Taken, Spielberg's 20 hour mini-series focusing on alien abduction. The cost of this production was a staggering $120 million - making it the most expensive mini-series in television history. You'd think Spielberg would by now have tired of the genre, but his elite controllers are really zealous to implant this alien paradigm in the minds of the masses.

Furthermore, Ray Santilli's infamous 1995 'Alien Autopsy' footage now widely accepted as a hoax can again be traced back to Spielberg. The film became all the rage in the international UFO community, with half the specialised publications featuring Santilli's alien corpse on their front covers. However, Santilli now appears to be just the front man for the real owner of the film. Santilli admitted in a BBC interview that the money behind the film came from Germany. French network TF1 subsequently reported that the film originated from an individual by the name of 'Herr Volker Spielberg.' TF1 tried to track this man down but he proved elusive.

Spielberg is clearly a tool of the elite. His work in Hollywood propagates the reality of an alien presence that has been imbedded in the body politic.

George has been privy to all this - maybe Spielberg was forced into it, and is fighting back in his own way. *Maybe George realised and started his own fight. *

Either way, this planet's *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif

[JediBendu]

:: bump ::

:yinyang:

[jedibrat]

I think the idea does make some sense... if there's anything the gov't, etc. wants to desensitize us to, all they'd have to do is put it in a movie.

[Clara]

I can see what you mean. Consider Hitler: Does not like Jews, is sexist, and wants to control the world.

Now consider Palpatine: Does not like aliens, is sexist, and wants to control the galaxy.

The resemblence is uncany.

[BL-17]

What about the Stormtroopers? Hitlers private army in 1921 was called the "SA (Sturm Abteilung)" or "Stormtroopers".

Palpatine is a mixture of dictators, I think. It would be easy for Lucas to do that. Hitler showed much hatred at an early age which expanded later in life. Stalin was just a dictator, in my opinion. He only used Communism to further his exploits; kind of like Palpatine uses democracy to further his. Not a true member of the party.

[Whuffa]

I agree that the whole situation in Ep II can be compared to the current situtation in the world, and as Jedi Bendu said - this world is about to be *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif *.

[JediBendu]

I'm not saying GL is comparing the current rise of global fascism with Nazi fascism.
I'm saying GL is telling us what is really happening. Spielberg is equivalent of Paul Goebbels, Hitler's propagander minister. He's a voice for the New World Order.
George has been a close and personal friend of Spielberg for years - he knows what's happening because he gets the info from Spielberg (intentionally or not I don't know).
Rick McCallum has said on many occassions that GL keeps the story pretty close to his chest. I suggest that GL hasn't even written ep3 yet (other than the b story of Anakin's demise) because Spielberg hasn't revealled what's happening yet.
1999 - Phantom happens to co-incide with Spielberg meeting with Bilderberg group.
2002 - ATOC resembles exactly what's happened in the US with Bush and Sept 11.

Does this extend to the original Star Wars in the 70's. Possibly, but not in the finer detail that the prequels are in.

I suppose he's relieving some of the guilt of knowing by putting it all on film. Kinda like 'Well I did my part and told the world, is it my fault no one listened?'

heroes will die, a prophecy is fullfilled, an empire is born - am I really talking about Star Wars?

[Clara]

Hard to believe, isn't it.

You must remember one thing about Episode II and 11/9 though; AOTC was written and filmed before it occured, so if we are to see any of 11/9 in the movies, it shall be in Episode III.

[JediBendu]

If I'm true to my theory - Sep 11 was orchestrated by the NWO in order to start the war on terrorism.
The fact that it was written and filmed beforehand only adds to the the fact that Spielberg (and hence GL) knew what was going to happen.

[JediBendu]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif
Bliz has just posted a reminder that ET was in Phantom - he's couldn't be more blatant than that.

[Justin]

If you seriously think that the American government helped plan the horrible attacks that occured last September 11th, then you're a sick person.

Furthermore, I think the events of Sept. 11th aren't something to be joked about or reffered to with such callousness. *It was a very real, very horrible thing and many people's real lives were destroyed. *A little girl I used to take care of lost her father in the attack on the Pentagon, and many other people suffered similar painful losses.

Comparing it to the events that occur in a fantasy movie for kids is wrong, and it's also wrong to suggest that the American government is behind the attack when there is absolutely no proof that that is the case.

[JediBendu]

How many websites would you like me to post?

How is it then the planes were allowed to get so close to New York when ordinarily if a plane goes off course by more than 2 minutes they scramble fighter jets immediately?

Osama was trained by the CIA wasn't it? NWO aside, you could say that the US government was responsible.

and I said nothing about the American government (oh and how did the recount in Florida go? )

[BL-17]

I must say I agree with Justin. Steven Spielberg and George Lucas know of some sort of alien invasion?

Imagine what would happen if a fabricated alien threat destroyed a few hundred thousand lives, even a million?

Eh, sure I can *imagine*, but the idea of an actual alien invasion is highly unlikely.

What's Spielberg got to do with it? *He's been preparing the masses for accepting the possibility before it happens.

I don't believe Spielberg has been "preparing the masses". He's a filmmaker. It's the job he chooses to do and I'm sure he's had a great time doing it.

Has anyone noticed how many aliens in tv commercials? *They're a part of our culture - we accept their presence without any concrete proof. *(I won't go into real ufo's here)

You're right. Aliens, UFO's, and other quandries of the sort have become a large part of American culture. A lot of things have. It could be "just another trend". Maybe people thirst for the unknown.


Sorry. I think that the New World Order consists of nothing but complete bullplop. I find these conspiracy theories of yours to be quite disturbing.

No offense. I just don't think Steven Spielberg is "a tool of the elite" or that he has any government ties whatsoever. That, in my mind, is just absurd.

[JediBendu]

Justin
It was a very real, very horrible thing and many people's real lives were destroyed. *

I know, and I apologies for seeming callous, I did make a point of saying all death is abhorent. *However, I don't accept the claim that America is the 'innocent victim'. *

The NWO is a very real, very horible thing and many people's lives are going to be destroyed. *Callousness is knowingly sacrificing 4000 lives for nothing more than a step towards power.

BL-17
Steven Spielberg and George Lucas know of some sort of alien invasion?

You've completely misunderstood what I was trying to say. *There is no alien invasion, only the threat of one is needed to keep fear in the masses, and hence the continual loss of civil liberties.
This isn't going to happen for a while, and I agree, I sound like a conspiracist nutter. *But the info is out there.
The 'War on Terror' will be [conveniently] around for a few years yet. *I would suggest re-reading my post and reading Orwell's view on Oligarchical Collectivism in 1984 to understand what I mean. *It's happening now.

Hollywood's a convenient propaganda machine, Spielberg is a proponent.
I'm leaning towards GL being part of NESARA, one group (among others) that are fighting the NWO.

Meche
I think a lot of people thought it was pretty dumb and didn't go well. Why do you ask?

Just wondering if the true result will ever be known.


and guys - don't worry about offending me. It's quite unlikely that you can. Kick the idea to death for all care - it's only a theory after all.

[Meche]

No JediBendu, the true results of the 2000 election won't be known (unless they saved all the ballots, but I doubt it). And it's not only the 2000 election, this goes for all of the elections. There's no way to get the EXACT number of votes for every candidate. Sounds sad but that's the way it is, realistically.

Again, why do you ask?

[Whuffa]

Noone is trying to say that the sep.11 deaths weren't a horrible tragedy, but I have to agree with Jedi Bendu that there's more behind this than what we get to hear.
Also by saying certain politicians are corrupt that doesn't imply in any way that the nation they're serving is corrupt in any way.

Now I can state my theory:
George Bush recently sent out a request to middle and eastern European countries asking them to give special privileges to citizens of the US considering the International War Court in Haague. Basicly, he's asking countries to back him up when he decides that US military leaders can do whatever they like and not be held accountable for it.

I find this very disturbing, escpecialy after he's invited everyone to join him in his war with Iraq.
This is also very insulting to other nations, for him to do this when they have been sending their military leaders to the prison in Haague without much fuss (here in Croatia we already have a bunch of generals there).

This leads me to believe there's more to this "War on Terror" than meets the eye. That's all I'm saying.

Once again, I mean to insult noone with this. I deeply sympathize with the U.S. people and can relate to your sadness (I've lived through half a decade of war myself), I just don't like the direction your government has been taking recently.

[Meche]

I'm not sure what is meant by American being an innocent victim, because the people who died certainly are.

[tunafishman]

Okay, so Henry Kissinger controls the world...or wait, is it Alan Greenspan...the government has black helicopters that don't make a noise...and traveling 18-wheelers that can act as nuclear missle launch control in case Washington is destroyed...the Free Masons were Devil worshipers...oh yeah, they used to control the world...George Washington was a woman...and the Matrix is real man!!!!

Sorry Jedibendu, but I don't buy it. Sounds like a sad case of conspiracy theory to me. And saying you have websites to back-up your theory does not strengthen it. I can find websites that say the universe revolves around the world, and will make a good arguement for it, but it doesn't make it true.

How is it then the planes were allowed to get so close to New York when ordinarily if a plane goes off course by more than 2 minutes they scramble fighter jets immediately?
Osama was trained by the CIA wasn't it? *NWO aside, you could say that the US government was responsible.

Well, no, they didn't used to scramble fighter jets when a plane went off course for more than 2 minutes. They do now, but its more like 30 seconds. Yes, Osama was trained by the CIA. At the time, the Russians looked like a much worse enemy that a group of Muslims. I'm also sure the gov't didn't look too far into his politics, just as long as he didn't like the USSR. And yes, the US gov't is resposible for Sept. 11 just as much as I am responsible for getting beat up by someone for making fun of them. The US gov't chose to leave troops in Saudi Arabi, chose to support Israel, and these are the consequences of those actions. There is no way a civilian gov't would support killing innocent people just to further their power. It still would have happened if the Dems were in power. Its just convenant to the theory that G-dub is in.

But don't worry, one day they'll go too far, and then the revolution will come.

[JediBendu]

ya tunafishman - it sounds nutty. *I got in to conspiracies while I was younger and came to the conclusion that there is no conspiracy theory – humans are just chickens running around with their heads chopped off. *There couldn’t be an organisation capable of controlling human destiny on such a grand scale. You can also track the emergence of the concept of the ‘conspiracy theory’ with the rise of the omnipresent intelligence agencies after WWII. *The New World Order couldn’t come into effect because there was no single event (that I could discern) that would trigger the sacrifice of civil liberties, a necessary precursor for it’s introduction. *For me, the conspiracy theory was the conspiracy theory.

That was before the 11th of September, 2001.

I still follow both lines of thought – there is no conspiracy and there is now an organised revolt against the ruling global hegemony, a revolt which is perfectly justified and long overdue. Or there is a conspiracy theory, in which case the citizens of the US are just as much a pawn in this game as anyone else. *(Meche I apologise for the innocent victim remark)

Okay, so Henry Kissinger controls the world

Kissinger doesn’t control it, he just follow orders. *A comment from him from 1991:
Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government

meche
Again, why do you ask?
WHO CONTROLS THE PAST CONTROLS THE FUTURE; WHO CONTROLS THE PRESENT CONTROLS THE PAST – Party Slogan, 1984
In a few years, no one will even remember that the election was won by only 400 votes, in a state who’s governor was the brother of the eventual winner, and who’s wife was the one of the electoral commissioners. The election was an insult to the ideal of democracy – had it happened in Oz, there would have been riots demanding another election.

analysis of Orwell's 1984 (http://www.angelfire.com/biz2/rave/1984.html)

war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength

Orwell did get it wrong in a lot of ways, but he also got it soooo right. *The continual war is really against it’s own populace and is used as a means to keep the ruling oligarchies in power. Orwell had 3 blocs continually fighting, using up surplus human capital, and keeping the class structure the way it is. *The war on terror is even more insidious as there is no identifiable enemy that can be defeated as to allow the war to ‘end’. *It’s an open timetable. *My comments earlier about the fabricated alien threat is only a continuation of this theme. *
This thread isn’t about Sep 11. *This thread’s about GL using the sci-fi genre to inform the world of what is happening. *Sci-fi is not about space ships and fantasy worlds. *Sci-fi in it’s pure form is about socio-political commentary on society at large. *
I still maintain the GL is informed while the rest of us can only speculate

[Javen]

Your gonna sit here and say Spielberg a directer knows things that are going on in the world what is he the Truman show making it happen.
I agree with Tunafishman your defnitley a conspiracy therosist
for sure

[JediBendu]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif

[Whuffa]

Something big is happening, you don't have to believe it, but something is happening...

[tunafishman]

Here's my problem with the notion that AOTC parallel's America's War on Terrorism....It also parallel's any other war I can think of. Give me one (and assuming I know enough about it) and I can parallel it.

The only reason I can't argue that AOTC is a statement on the put your favorite war here war is because like you said Jedibendu, sci-fi is a statement about society, and is usually meant to be current or what life will be like in the future.

But then again, if you use the arguement that sci-fi is a statement about society, what's wrong with taking it at face value. What if GL is just saying in the future wars will be fought with robots and/or cloned humans, thereby making it a battle of technical prowess and resource management rather than something real, where real people die.

[JediBendu]

I'm *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif *because I'm a self confessed non-practicing conspiracist. *I don't think this is a conspiracy because I believe it's really happening. *Look at the cross-involvement of Spielberh and Lucas - ET in Star Wars, GL himself in MIB. *
But, I'm willing to admit the rantings of a crazy ol wizard and let the NWO pass.

What if GL is just saying in the future wars will be fought with robots and/or cloned humans

They're only devices, not a message in itself, otherwise he would have gone into the Clone War a bit more in anh. *He was referring to it as the 'War to end all Wars' or 'The Great War' is referred to now.

Setting up the diachotomy between droids and clones in order to envoke and empathic reaction between the technological an biological destruction doesn't hold water - most humans attitude towards clones (which is in another thread) would preclude that. *Clones are not considered 'real people' yet. *Perhaps that could be a message in itself, that 'clones are people too' kinda thing.

The message in SW, the rebellion of a technologically inferior against a technologically superior Imperial power, can be applied to Vietnam and corporate imperialism in the 70s, but it also can apply to Osama's (seemingly) rag tag group. *ATOC isn't about the rebellion though, it's about the rise of that Imperial power.

Look at GLs almost nihilistic view in THX-1138. *He's not a proponent of a bright and sunny future that's for sure.


Tunafishman - I've been dying to use that avatar but just couldn't bring myself to use it *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Justin]

JediBendu, are you comparing Al Qaeda to the Rebel Alliance (the good guys) and America to the Empire (the bad guys)?

That's f***ed up.

[BL-17]

Well, in reality the Rebel Alliance really was nothing more than a terrorist group. Oh, sure. You could make the argument that they were "freedom fighting". That's not what I call fighting the government rightfully in place. Lies and deceit or not, Palpatine was rightfully seated at his throne. As to whether or not the Empire served the peace... who ever heard of a "John Locke's Social Contract" in the Star Wars Universe?

[JediBendu]

no I'm not comparing al Qaeda to the Rebel Alliance. *I'm comparing all asymetric rebellions against the ruling power to the Rebel Alliance.
Look at the time *Star Wars was made - the Vietnam war was just lost to the VC, the PLO had started hijacking planes, Cuba (59 - which resolted in Che leading botched revolutions in the Congo and Bolivia) and Mexico had armed uprisings. *Kissenger was head of state (73-77), Nixon was a basket case and students were shot in Berkley (69?).
I have an interview with GL taken just before empire - he state's 'I've always been fascinated by the concept of a poor underdeveloped rebellion triumphing over the more sophisticated and powerful ruling body' *(paraphrasing).

Al Qaeda *is different in that it's on an equal footing with the entire might of the US armed forces (man I'm going to cop it for that) which is the opposite of the 'rebels' in other conflicts.

[Whuffa]

Palpatine may have gotten to the position of Supreme Chancellor by legal methods, but it's the fact that he misused the power he was given that makes the Alliance's cause justified. You can't just let a man in a position of power do whetever he likes because he got there through legal methods. That's absurd.

[BL-17]

How many instances were there in which people were murdered who weren't part of some sort of rebel faction? Not many if I recall correctly. If the Emperor served his people in such a matter where no harm would come to them, I see no problem with that. Those loyal to the Empire were most likely gratified.

[JediBendu]

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, even Pohl Pot said the same thing

You have to face reality - Bush got in through manipulation of the ballot.

[BL-17]

Ex-Governor General of Poland Hans Frank (1900-1946) describes Hitler's charismatic effect on him...

"I can hardly understand it myself. There must be some basic evil in me. In all men. Mass hypnosis? Hitler cultivated this evil in man. When I saw him in that movie in court, I was swept along again for a moment, in spite of myself. Funny, one sits in court feeling guilt and shame. Then Hitler appears on the screen and you want to stretch out your hand to him... It's not with horns on his head or with a forked tail that the devil comes to us, you know. He comes with a captivating smile, spouting idealistic sentiments, winning one's loyalty. We cannot say that Adolf Hitler violated the German people. He seduced us."

[Whuffa]

So? If the masses are seduced by a bigoted mass-murderer, should we just accept it? I cannot believe what you're saying.
Those who were loyal to the Empire gained from it? What about those who were alien, or female etc.? Same thing with Hitler, I'm sure those who were loyal to him gained from it, but what about Jews, blacks, and anyone who wasn't to his liking?
What if all of the Americans had decided to stay loyal to Great Britain because they could gain from it? You'd still have the Union Jack instead of the Stars and Stripes. See what I mean? It doesn't matter how a person got to a position of power, if he misuses that power, the people have a right to rebel.

[BL-17]

All right. I see what you're saying. Let the people rebel. There is, however, a greater chance that the people will die. I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to risk my life for democracy.

What about those who were alien, or female etc.?

There were aliens and females within the Empire. How could there not have been? A world of prejudice is entirely different from a universe.

The same is true for Hitler. He didn't hate women. What about his Mistress, Eva Braun? Or the League of German Girls?
He did, of course, have other racial aspects, but I do not believe he had some sort of an agenda against women. He pretty much was against all non-Aryans and non-Christians. That narrowed his targets down a bit.

[Whuffa]

The reason I mentioned aliens and females was because the Emperor was extremly xenophobic and a shovinist (sp?)

And yeah Hitler liked women sexually, and there was a league of German girls but women were discouraged from being politicians and stuff.
And even if he was only against Jews that still doesn't make it right!

The fact that you would rather live in a dictatorship or a non-democratic society than do something about it is just... sad.

[BL-17]

Hitler liked women sexually, and there was a league of German girls but women were discouraged from being politicians and stuff.

The world was a very different place then. The same thing was happening in America, mind you. It was once thought that women were good for nothing except working in the kitchen and taking care of the family (which, in itself, is a rather large job).

The fact that you would rather live in a dictatorship or a non-democratic society than do something about it is just... sad.

I'm sorry if I disappoint you in some way.

[Whuffa]

I don't have the right to judge you, but I just feel dissapointed with society in general when I hear people say stuff like that, but it's a free world after all. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scatter.gif

:roll:

[JediBendu]

This is from George himself from an interview in TIME magazine (29/04/02):

All democracies turn into dictatorships - but not by coup. *The people give their democracy to a dictator, whether it's Julius Caesar or Napoleon or Adolf Hitler. *Ultimately, the general population goes along with the idea....What kinds of things push people and institutions into this direction?

and...

It isn't that the Empire conquered the Republic, it's that the Empire is the Republic.

Is GL referring to the US Republic becoming the US Empire? *It's not that simple as the US and most other governments promote economic rationalism as a new-millenium mantra. *The corporations are in charge, not the bureaucrats.
I recommend watching THX-1138 to get GL's ultimate view on capitalism.

I'll re-iterate a quote from Caesar that I included in an earlier post.
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.

[Justin]

George Lucas is the ultimate capitalist. Don't try and argue against that.

I'd just like to point out that Lucas was talking about the history of politics in the democracy/dictatorship thing, not saying that that was what was happening in the United States. I think it's possible that that might happen someday, but it's not happening now.

And JediBendu; Al Qaeda being on equal footing with the entire armed forces of the United States? You know absolutely nothing about the military.

Al Qaeda is nothing more than a well organized terrorist group. If they had the same military might that the US has, they would have tried to take over the country with an invasion, or obliterated us with nuclear weapons, or some such thing.

The U.S. has hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of well-trained military personnel. Al Qaeda might possibly have a few hundred or more members, and while many of them have some basic military training, very few of them have anywhere near the training and sophistication that the US military has.

Trust me, I've grown up on and around military bases here in the US and in Europe, and there is NO WAY that Al Qaeda is anywhere near as powerful as the US military.

[JediBendu]

George Lucas is the ultimate capitalist. Don't try and argue against that.

I could argue that water isn't wet ;p
A merchandising mogul doesn’t count as the ultimate capitalist. *The ultimate is someone who will only see human value as a resource to be used, manipulated and exploited. *I know you’ll agree GL isn’t about that. *Sure he makes money from the plethora of SW merchandise – only because we buy them. *He does pump a fair whack of the profits back into his businesses though, which differs from pure profit motive.

Lucas was talking about the history of politics in the democracy/dictatorship

If he was talking about the history he wouldn’t be using the Sci-Fi genre – Indiana Jones is a good example – plenty of commentary on Nazi Germany in 1 and 3, colonialism and religious fanaticism in 2. *Sci Fi is about the present, usually about 5 years worth, but it varies between particular mediums (books, film, tv etc)

I think it's possible that that might happen someday, but it's not happening now.

There’s a great scene in THX-1138 where a sentient hologram is explaining to THX how the world got to where it is - ‘It happened so slowly that man didn’t know what had happened until it was already too late’ (paraphrasing). *You’ve already passed heinous anti-civil liberties laws under the euphemism of anti-terrorism. *Do you think they’re going to change the laws back again?!? *

‘I promise to lay down these powers once the immediate crisis has passed’ – palpatine, atoc

In Oz, the government (at the behest of yours) is also trying to slip through changes to the laws. *Our system works differently so there’s still a chance it won’t get through the senate but I doubt it. *
It IS happening now and it’s happening ALL OVER THE WORLD.

You know absolutely nothing about the military.

I know that all death is abhorent – an institution dedicated to it’s pursuit disgusts me. *But that wasn't what I was referring to.

Al Qaeda is nothing more than a well organized terrorist group.

The 64 Al Qaeda library tapes recovered by CNN would put that down as a very style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif well organised and a very style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif determined terrorist group.

Trust me, I've grown up on and around military bases here in the US and in Europe, and there is NO WAY that Al Qaeda is anywhere near as powerful as the US military.

Then you’ll understand the primary mechanism with which the US has kept the rest of the world’s military machines at bay. *(I’ll sidebar here to re-iterate that I think they’re all just different sides of the same coin – there is no ‘enemy’ and ‘war’ is waged against the nation’s own citizens for the purpose of maintaining the ruling oligarchies power base. *But I digress)

Fear.

‘Fear will keep the local systems in line. *Fear of this battle station’ – tarkin, anh

Contrary to what some pundits are saying, the concept of conventional warfare was destroyed at the end of WWII, not with the advent of terrorism. *When the US dropped the first atomic weapon it signalled the beginning of asymmetric warfare. *For the first time, one party could inflict a hideous amount of death and destruction with little or no effort. *The second bomb only confirmed it. *The US literally put fear on the minds of every government. *
The USSR had a go at competing, but then the [ludicrously revolting] term of ‘peace through mutually assured destruction’ came in. *So for a while, the US actually felt fear, but then you guys just built more bombs. *The fear was alleviated by the sense of retribution – if he takes us out, we’ll take him out with twice as many bombs. *This all happened way before both you or I (and the majority of people on this board) were born, let alone in a position to do anything about it.
And that’s the way it’s been till now. *For 50 years the US has been using the fear of ultimate destruction as it’s primary weapon. *Two generations have passed and most Americans have gotten use to it, so much so they probably don't recognise it for what it is truly is.
Iraq having weapons of mass destruction – you’re not really worried that he’ll use them against you – just that he’s got them. *It introduces an unstable variable into your cleverly constructed Pax Americana formula. *
Al Qaeda is different. *While Iraq, Iran and North Korea (to use a bad cliché from you president) have an entire state behind their weapons programs, as does your country, Al Qaeda has one man. *
One man can deliver a nuclear device into anyone of your cities. *One man can kill hundreds of thousands and there’s nothing your government or your illustrious military might can do to stop it. * One man can do what your military machine has done to the rest of the world for half a century. *One man has put the fear of death into all 250m of your patriotic citizens.

How does it taste? *Bitter?

What gets me is that Australia also has it by proxy. *We don’t even have nukes and yet we’re still a legitimate target because we’re allied to you. *Why? *Because ‘You’re either with us or against us.’

'It's a nightmare' - c3p0, atoc

[bodhisattva yoda]

i like how your mind functions, bendu. would you do me a favor and recommend some reading material to me? my brain has been idle for far too long. everything's turning to mush.

[Justin]

The US military is not "dedicated to the pursuit of death," it's dedicated to the protection of America. And not just America, but other countries that need help as well, like England and France in World War II.

[bodhisattva yoda]

so long as it serves american interests. never without an ulterior motive.

[JediBendu]

Nailed it in one b. yoda

The US military is not "dedicated to the pursuit of death," it's dedicated to the protection of America. *

I was actually referring to all military machines, not just the US. *I really detest killing our own species with the tag line of 'an extension of Keynsian politics onto the battelfield'.
And I don't think the protection moral high ground is yours to claim anymore - pre-emptive strikes [with nuclear weapons in your arsenal] would kinda preclude that.

The US only got involved in WWII after Pearl Harbour - they had no interest in getting involved in what was thought to be a European war.
American involvement militarily only serves their own interest, which is basically an extension of government foreign policy.

'Wars not make one great' - yoda, esb style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[Whuffa]

Originally posted by Justin@Aug. 29 2002 - 05:46
The US military is not "dedicated to the pursuit of death," it's dedicated to the protection of America. * And not just America, but other countries that need help as well, like England and France in World War II.
Heh. Yeah, right. Watch "No Man's Land" (Oscar for best foreign movie this year).

[JediBendu]

B.Yoda
here's a few sites:

Brainwashing America (http://www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm) : tongue in cheek anti-propaganda site

US Polyarchy (http://www.chez.com/bibelec/publications/international/polyarchy.html) : a good history

Us dollar Hegemony (http://www.atimes.com/global-econ/DD11Dj01.html) : an economic perspective

[bodhisattva yoda]

thanks very much, bendu.

[Tovor]

Moved and bumped.

[Krogenar]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Aug 20 2002, 10:58 PM
If I'm true to my theory - Sep 11 was orchestrated by the NWO in order to start the war on terrorism.
The fact that it was written and filmed beforehand only adds to the the fact that Spielberg (and hence GL) knew what was going to happen.
... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

The 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by Al Qaeda members, who in turn are being funded (most likely) by monarchs of Saudi Arabia.

There's no alien conspiracy, there's no media conspiracy. It's your run-of-the-mill religious extremism - the kind we saw in the Dark Ages, and during the Crusades.

Anyone who could think that the government could 'cover up' an alien invasion, etc. - doesn't have much contact with the government. News flash: the government of the U.S. couldn't find its own ass with both hands and a flashlight.

Steven Spielberg and George Lucas are not in cahoots with the government or aliens. There's no 'Batboy' and that stain you see on that building over there? It ain't Jesus.

Also, I find it humorous that the same people who claimed President Bush was a moron before the 2000 presidential election, now paint him as a mastermind reminiscent of Emperor Palpatine! Nice reversal there. First he's an idiot, now he's an evil genius. No, no, sorry. He's a pawn of the evil oil magnates, right? He's just their twisted pawn!

Please... don't... vote.

[Krogenar]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Aug 23 2002, 08:20 PM
You have to face reality - Bush got in through manipulation of the ballot.
No, Bush won a very close election by winning the Electoral College, whereas Gore took a slight majority in the popular vote.

Then, in accordance with the rules, Gore's camp called for a recount. Which made sense in such a close race. Then he called for another recount, and another. Then he focused his recounting on specificly pro-Gore areas. Consequently, a legion of Democratic lawyers flew down to Florida to continue the recounting until enough 'pregnant chads' (those little pieces of paper that need to be knocked out of the ballot) were properly accounted for.

Then the Gorites *****ed about the confusing 'butterfly' ballots. Similar to Clinton's decision to lie to the entire nation and drag everyone through a nine month ordeal (rather than just tell the truth, and spare the nation), Gore decided that the political health of the nation was less important than winning the election.

And so he pushed the matter all the way to the Supreme Court. The media weighed in, on Gore's behalf, going even so far as to trash the mediator of the Florida election. I forget her name, but all they could say was that she wore too much make-up. Like that had any bearing on the issue.

Democrats have shown a disturbing new willingness to litigate their way into office, or simply ignore the laws of the land in order to win. Just look at the recent switcheroo in the New Jersey senate election this past November. Senator Torricelli was wilting in the polls due to rampant charges of corruption. Less than a month from the election the Democrats replaced him with former senator Frank Lautenberg. There's a law stating that you cannot add a candidate to the voting less than 51 days from the election.

Democratic lawyers stated that the reason for the law was to give voting administrators time to print up new ballots, and were allowed to switch candidates. Doug Forrester, the Republican candidate who was winning, now had to shift his entire campaign to fight someone completely different, and at the last minute.

The real reason for 51-day limit is to prevent exactly this sort of 'switcheroo'. If I'm going to go into the ring with Siamese Sith, and I train for that day, and then right before the bell rings, you put me in there with someone else (like Mike Tyson), it just ain't fair.

If what the Democrats did in New Jersey were truly legal, and in the nation's best interest, then why not suddenly (1 day before the election, maybe?) put Rudolph Guliani on the ballot - replacing Forrester?
And then the Democrats could replace Lautenberg with Barbara Streisand? And so on, and so on.

People whining about the 2000 election should take a deep breath: there's likely to be plenty more whining to be done in 2004 as well, when I predict the Democrats will show themselves to be more morally and ideologically bankrupt than was ever conceived possible.

[FerrisWiel]

*stares amazedly*

Well stated, Krog.

--Ferris Wiel

[Krogenar]

Originally posted by BL-17@Aug 23 2002, 11:08 PM
Then Hitler appears on the screen and you want to stretch out your hand to him... It's not with horns on his head or with a forked tail that the devil comes to us, you know. He comes with a captivating smile, spouting idealistic sentiments, winning one's loyalty. We cannot say that Adolf Hitler violated the German people. He seduced us."
Exactly correct.

Hitler capitalized on a number of emotional problems in the German state after WWI. First, the German populace's morale (like its economy) was in total disarray. Humiliated by the Treaty of Versaille, which demanded Germany assume all the blame for the war, the German psyche was shattered. What had once been an authoritarian, imperialistic nation, was now a sort of ghetto.

Hitler tapped into that yearning for a once again great Germany (and general anti-Semitic feelings) and was able to assume control in that way. Hitler staged huge demonstrations that were remarkable in their size, organization and showmanship. Bonfires were lit, and the processions were performed at night - to give the whole event a romantic feel. Wagner was played (Flight of the Valkyries!) to stir people's nationalistic feelings. A German citizen was able to walk away from one of Hitler's events with a renewed sense of national destiny.

That's how Hitler came to power. Not through some overt grab at power. He did do it in a slow, seductive way: similar in some respects to Lucas' fictional Emperor Palpatine. But no one ever dreamed it was Palpatine's wish to become Emperor, while in contrast, some people did see through to Hitler's intentions.

[MegoHulk]

You could even say Hitler was good for Germany...at least for a short while. He turned the country around and got it back to a world power in a very short time...only problem was he didn't want to stop. Had he stopped while he was on top , the world would be a much different place right now. WW2 probably wouldn't have happened and the last 60 years would have played out much differently. In fact it's likely the Germans would have been first to use Atomic weapons and energy and also been the first to the moon. But like Palpatine from Sw, Hitler was overconfident and wanted it all. I think it's kinda neat how alot of SW is based on real history to some extent.

[Krogenar]

Originally posted by MegoHulk@Nov 20 2002, 04:29 PM
I think it's kinda neat how alot of SW is based on real history to some extent.

*nods* It's clear that Nazi Germany had some influence on GL. We have Storm Troopers, and their armor is based on actual German WWII headgear. Isn't that right?

Oh yeah, and before I write another essay/reply, please do not disparage the market system or capitalism.

Thank you. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[JediBendu]

'Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand' - emperor, roj


it's amazing how quickly people forget - perhaps you'd like to work for the Ministry of Truth? Double plus good that.

[Smeghead]

We are at war with <s>Eastasia</s> Eurasia. We have always been at war with <s>Eastasia</s> Eurasia

[JediBendu]

Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.

[Krogenar]

Ah, the power of <s>cheese</s> quotations.

Here are two quotes of my own, from that American sage, John Stuart Mill.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.

Let's be honest with ourselves. You don't want Iraq to be attacked because you slavishly subscribe to the dictum that 'war is bad' in any and all circumstances.

Or, you just hate the fact that our current president has a spine. Or, you can't stand that most of the radical leftists in America are now ideologically naked.

Here's another quote for you.

A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

It's a requirement of a working democracy that citizens remain vigilant to the sorts of abuses you're carrying on about, JediBendu. But so far you've been unwilling to meet my responses with anything besides more silly quotes, and some ridiculous demogoguery. I like the picture of President Bush as a storm trooper; it really drove your argument home. When all else fails, there's always Photoshop, right? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Please. I'm just itching to have a good-natured discussion about what we each believe. If you're up to it, of course. If you believe my viewpoint is mistaken, prove me wrong.

[MegoHulk]

Let's be honest with ourselves. You don't want Iraq to be attacked because you slavishly subscribe to the dictum that 'war is bad' in any and all circumstances.



Well it is...even when there is a "good cause" for it, it's still bad. There are no situations where war is ever GOOD. I agree there are times when we MUST go to war to protect ourselves and our freedom but I just don't see Iraq as a threat to us. The weapon inspectors are back and doing their jobs, so let's see how that turns out. It just seems to alot of people that Bush wants a war no matter what happens, he's always going on about how Iraq will pay if they have weapons, etc etc. Strange how we don't make Isreal disarm, they are the biggest threat in the middle east...only thing is, is that they are our friends. I don't think we'd have half the problems we do now if we would stay out of middle eastern affairs. We talk about wanting democracy all over the world and how good the UN is, etc...but we put ourselves above everyone and have a "do as I say , not as I do" attitude. Really the only reason most of our allies even put up with us is because of the money. ???

[Krogenar]

Well it is...even when there is a "good cause" for it, it's still bad. There are no situations where war is ever GOOD. I agree there are times when we MUST go to war to protect ourselves and our freedom but I just don't see Iraq as a threat to us.

Agreed. War is never a 'good thing'. It's never desirable, or worth waging for its own sake. But that's precisely how America's reaction to the terrorist attacks have been portrayed: pointless aggression.

Iraq is a threat because they are openly aggressive to America, just like Al Qaeda. It's not impossible to imagine Hussein giving weapons of mass destruction to terrorists. They both have the same enemy. Also, I have no beef with the people of Iraq: they have my sympathy. It ain't easy living under a maniacal dictator. Hussein's regime in Iraq is absolutely, positively our enemy.

I acknowledge that there's not yet (to my knowledge) any perfectly clear connection between terrorists, and Hussein's government: but our intelligence agencies believe it's highly possible.

The weapon inspectors are back and doing their jobs, so let's see how that turns out. It just seems to alot of people that Bush wants a war no matter what happens, he's always going on about how Iraq will pay if they have weapons, etc etc.

The weapons inspection is a fool's errand. We're talking about a country that's nearly the size of Texas, I think. In the 4 years since Saddam kicked the inspections out of Iraq, they've most likely hidden everything. Also, Saddam requires several days WARNING before inspectors can go into any area. And in the past 10 years he's pulled all sorts of tricks to prevent inspectors from finding his weapon stockpiles. He's had his military police sit in when inspectors interview people they suspect of having some role to play in the manufacture of the weapons. Having a gun toting thug sitting behind you doesn't make you willing to talk.

And make no mistake: Hussein is a dictator of the worst stripe. He has dungeons. JediBendu, instead of wailing on and on about your Orwellian conspiracy theories regarding America, you should see what's happening right now in Iraq. Dissidents are thrown into Hussein's dungeons where they can enjoy the following amenities:




Having their entire bodies crushed into metal boxes.



Having their hands mutilated with power drills.



Watching their wives and daughters get raped before them.



No jury, no appeal, no parole.



Death.





Strange how we don't make Isreal disarm, they are the biggest threat in the middle east...

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif Israel is the biggest threat? I think if you really look at the facts, you'll see that idea doesn't make any sense. Are Israel's neighbors worried that they might launch their nukes at any time? Are Israel's neighbors worried about suicide bombers? The fact is, Israel has shown a ridiculous amount of restraint in the face of almost non-stop terrorism.

only thing is, is that they are our friends.

Right! France is also our ally style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif and they also have nukes - but I don't lay awake at night worrying if they'll launch some ICBM's at us, or anyone else for that matter. The country is run by snail-eaters, but they have a modicum of sense.

I don't think we'd have half the problems we do now if we would stay out of middle eastern affairs.

That's true. Al Qaeda is attacking us partly because of our support of Israel - which we support in large part because of the influence of Jewish Americans. The fact remains, however, that terrorists are targeting America, and we have to be pro-active. We can't wait for another attack. We need to bring the attack to them.

We talk about wanting democracy all over the world and how good the UN is, etc...but we put ourselves above everyone and have a "do as I say , not as I do" attitude. Really the only reason most of our allies even put up with us is because of the money.

I find myself reluctantly agreeing with your last point MegoHulk. Most of our allies are for crap. Great Britain and Australia are notable exceptions. And I never thought the United Nations was great! It's a pile of crap resting near the East River! If I had my way, we'd quit the U.N. (thereby relegating it to the ash heap of history) after Iraq fires on our planes once more, and Kofi Annan insists that Iraq has not defied the terms of the agreement. The U.N. is a colossol joke. Their council on human rights recently booted the U.S. from the council, to make room for Sudan. Sudan, in case you haven't heard, is one of the last remaining countries to practice human slavery. They turned their nose up at America's inclusion on the panel.

As for 'putting ourselves above everyone else' I think that's really just other countries feeling insecure in the fact that America is the only country that can currently act on its own, militarily. We're the wealthiest, most successful country, in my opinion. I'm not slamming other nations, but they need to stop hating America because of some inferiority complex.

[Krogenar]

My apologies for posting so much to this thread, but the utter nonsense I've been hearing needs some countering.

JediBendu, you stated:

Iraq having weapons of mass destruction – you’re not really worried that he’ll use them against you – just that he’s got them. It introduces an unstable variable into your cleverly constructed Pax Americana formula.

No, we're afraid that he'll give them to terrorists.
Not two sentences later, you refuted your own argument by saying:

One man can deliver a nuclear device into anyone of your cities. One man can kill hundreds of thousands and there’s nothing your government or your illustrious military might can do to stop it.

I can hear your anti-Americanism very clearly. That word, 'illustrious', just drips with sarcasm. One could easily come to the conclusion that you're happy with the fact that terrorists are attacking my country. And I assure you that there's plenty that we Americans can do to stop it - with or without the rest of the world behind us. We can go it alone, if the rest of the world is happy to see us in dire straits.

One man can do what your military machine has done to the rest of the world for half a century. One man has put the fear of death into all 250m of your patriotic citizens.

Again, your anti-Americanism seeps through. Why is it Osama hasn't shown himself on video in the last year or so? Could it be that one of our daisy cutter bombs shattered the cave he was hiding in? Or maybe it's because he's so hunted, he can't find a doctor? He's hurting, and I hope that ****er goes on hurting - right up until the point that some Marines break into the shack he's hiding in, and puts a bullet in his brain.

How does it taste? Bitter?

No. Since America has come under attack, all patriotic Americans have seen how people have pulled together. And our enemies both abroad (and at home) can't stand the sight of it. From your posts, I can tell JediBendu, that you are not an American. Or a poor excuse for one.
Either way, you don't know what my country can do. We've fought in two world wars, liberated countries, and defended ourselves. You can call my patriotism corny or weird if you want, but America is the greatest society that humanity has ever produced; it's helped more people, and allowed for more freedom and prosperity than any other nation in humanity's history.

Eat that.
Is it bitter?

[JediBendu]

I can hear your anti-Americanism very clearly.
It's not anti-American - I like Americans, some of my best friends are American style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif
It's anti western rampant consumerism, of which America is just another contributor (albeit a big one)
I'm going to have to go back and read this thread again - difficult to pick it up after such a long time buried in the bowells of the senate.

[JediBendu]

JediBendu. But so far you've been unwilling to meet my responses with anything besides more silly quotes

Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.


No. Since America has come under attack, all patriotic Americans have seen how people have pulled together.

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.


Iraq is a threat because they are openly aggressive to America, just like Al Qaeda.
The fact is, Israel has shown a ridiculous amount of restraint in the face of almost non-stop terrorism

All the evils of this life of ours springs from the tyranny of human beings

The quickest way to end a war is to lose it.


It's a requirement of a working democracy that citizens remain vigilant to the sorts of abuses you're carrying on about, JediBendu.

I sometimes think that the price of liberty is not so much eternal vigilance as eternal dirt.


Or, you just hate the fact that our current president has a spine.

Perhaps a lunatic was simply a minority of one.


You can call my patriotism corny or weird if you want, but America is the greatest society that humanity has ever produced;

The process [of mass-media deception] has to be conscious, or it would not be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and hence of guilt


and allowed for more freedom and prosperity than any other nation in humanity's history.

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear



I'm not slamming other nations, but they need to stop hating America because of some inferiority complex.
The country is run by snail-eaters
, and some ridiculous demogoguery.
He's hurting, and I hope that ****er goes on hurting - right up until the point that some Marines break into the shack he's hiding in, and puts a bullet in his brain.

In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.


The fact remains, however, that terrorists are targeting America, and we have to be pro-active. We can't wait for another attack. We need to bring the attack to them.

People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome.



JediBendu, instead of wailing on and on about your Orwellian conspiracy theories regarding America, you should see what's happening right now in Iraq.

In the face of pain there are no heroes.


WAR IS PEACE - FREEDOM IS SLAVERY - IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

[FerrisWiel]

Nobody ever saved a life by sitting on his ass.

Show me a man who believes in a great conspiracy and I'll show you a man with faith in nothing.

There are some who would lay down and die rather than fight. I wish they would.

Protect your interests and inadvertently others reap the benefits.

A bomb is only as dangerous as the man who holds it.

If you're looking to determine the threat a nation poses, you need only look at which way its guns are pointed.

--Ferris Wiel

[MegoHulk]

Are we just going to throw quotes back and forth? Look, wether we like it or not, America is not really popular with the rest of the world right now. I can only compare it to the Roman Empire...we control the most wealth, power and resources and alot of countries don't like that fact. We have so much freedom..so much of EVERYTHING, that we waste it. We consume the most oil, the most food, the most everything...we're lazy and most of us are fat. We go around and tell other countries how things should be, and what they can have and can't have. Basically we are an easy target...the majority of the doesn't have half of what we have, and they'd like nothing better than to see Rome burn. I just hope Bush isn't Nero , playing his fiddle as it all happens.

[Darth Vegas]

Are we talking about Star Wars here? I think not.

[JediBendu]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/exclamation.gif

I was just being a typical ozi - I thought it amusing (and of course ironic) to respond by using silly quotes all from George Orwell.
oh well
ya Bond - there is Star Wars here - GO wrote 1984 during an interesting period, witnessing the rise and fall of Nazi fascism, the furious spread of communism, and the increasing influence of corporate imperialism. His views on oligarchical collectivism, while totally depressing, shows an incredible insight that should not be discounted as mere conspiracy.
Probably why his books are required reading from a young age.
The influence on GL is obvious in THX-1138, but he takes it to it's natural conclusion - that we're all just mindless sheep shoving a plethora pharmacopia down our gullets, all while watching fabricated drivel for entertainment in our otherwise non-exisent reality.

'Buy...and be happy'

[Krogenar - there's the In the News (http://www.galacticsenate.com/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=653&st=300) for more imediate current events. I'd be more than willing to shatter your short-sighted delusions about the world over there...that is of course if you're up to it? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

[Krogenar]

JediBendu, I'd lampoon the reduction of your argument to a shabby collection of quotes, but Ferris was faster on the draw than me. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

MegoHulk, you make some interesting points, so I'll examine them. Thank you for sharing your opinion!

Look, wether we like it or not, America is not really popular with the rest of the world right now. I can only compare it to the Roman Empire...we control the most wealth, power and resources and alot of countries don't like that fact. We have so much freedom..so much of EVERYTHING, that we waste it.

Yes! We agree that America is overwhelmingly affluent, in comparison to the rest of the world. It's that example that raises the hackles of so many other people. Just the sight of America is proof that our system (while not perfect) works better than other competing systems. Are Americans (the people who live in America) any different from the people in other countries? Are we fundamentally better than other people?

No. I truly believe that people everywhere are inherently the same in character. Americans are blessed with a system of government and commerce that give every citizen the chance to make a better life for themselves. Look at the last sentence of your quote MegoHulk - it's the most crucial part of your opinion. Do you think there's a connection between the freedoms that Americans enjoy, and our success?

We consume the most oil, the most food, the most everything...we're lazy and most of us are fat. We go around and tell other countries how things should be, and what they can have and can't have. Basically we are an easy target...the majority of the doesn't have half of what we have, and they'd like nothing better than to see Rome burn. I just hope Bush isn't Nero , playing his fiddle as it all happens.

True, we do waste more than any other nation. If we had less, we'd waste less. We're also among the most charitable of nations, because we're aware of how fortunate we are (and for tax purposes!). The mild to rabid anti-Americanism we're seeing amount to jealousy.

America is incredible because it was the first government to be created for the sake of the people. Every other government up until that point was not the servant of the people - it was the other way around! The people of France and Great Britain toiled for the sake of the monarchies that ruled them.

Now, on to JediBendu's quote:
[Krogenar - there's the In the News for more imediate current events. I'd be more than willing to shatter your short-sighted delusions about the world over there...that is of course if you're up to it?

:doze: :look: What? Sorry? Yeah, you'll be shattering me? Sure, wouldn't miss it. But let's talk here for now, for this one issue. Or does my shattering deserve more privacy? For those who enjoy this sort of talk, give this link a try! (http://www.fecesflingingmonkey.com/)

So, JediBendu, let's discuss this a little more - or move the thread? *shrug* I dunno. What's your opinion on all this? No more quotation avalanches, please.

[JediBendu]

JediBendu, I'd lampoon the reduction of your argument to a shabby collection of quotes, but Ferris was faster on the draw than me

man - I thought it was funny

sorry Krogenar
have to think of other posters - the focus on this thread is the political and social commentary that GL throws into his films.
I've bumped the In the News thread with a lead in on Iraq.
You're more than welcome to start a new thread on the topic of American pretentiousness if you'd like, but this dicussion is reserved for the Almighty. :angel:

[Lord Laviathan]

Well if theres anything we know throughout history its that it repeats itself. Star Wars is a story that we can connect to is that it can and has happened. I find it intresting what Dexter said and presented before us, truly its something to think about and learn from. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unhappy.gif