SPORTS: NBA Basketball

[DarthSolo]

Well, i am really excited about this season! I think the Nuggets could do quite well, with Carmello having more experience, and Kenyon Martin! Its gonna be a good year. Lets hear other people's teams and thoughts and hopes.

[The Bandit]

The Nugs look good... the Camby/Nene/KMart/Mello/Miller lineup they ran the other night is downright scary.

As a died in the wool Sixer fan, I've got decent hopes for our season -- if AI can stay healthy, if Andre Igadulo (I need to learn how to spell his name right) is as good as it seems, if we can get some decent return on a Big Dog trade... lot of ifs, but we're in a very weak division -- only team I'm worried about is the Knicks, and with that Starbury/Jamal Crawford backcourt the team is bound to have an ego implosion at some point.

And man... the Nets suck this year. I'm glad I've got RJ Richard Jefferson on both my fantasy teams... his numbers are gonna be huge. Not gonna win a lot of games though.

-- 2bq

[Queso]

GO! SPURS! GO!


i wonder whom i like

and finally spurs have signed Tony Parker for the next 6 years..

so for the next few seasons the Spurs have thier core players....a force to be reckoned with

[Soontir Solo]

The Spurs I think are the favorites in the West with Shaq having left the Lakers. The only time who can stand up to the Spurs is the T-Wolves, but I think the Spurs are better. They have a better defense, more experience, and I think even more talent. Tony Parker is easily better than Cassel. And I would rather have Duncan anyday over KG. And with Ginobali being a rising star I think the Spurs are going all the way this year. Whether they have enough to beat the Pistons or Heat though I don't know.

[Kapit]

i think the pistons are gonna do good again this year

the heat do look pretty good, and now that the lakers are a joke there will be some parity in NBA again

[DarthSolo]

I think the nuggets will make alotta noise in the west. I think they can stand up to the Wolves and the Spurs, but i dont think they are better, or could really take either of them in a 7 game series. But, we will see.

[Soontir Solo]

I am not sure about the Nuggets. They are still a very young team and we'll see how good Kenyan Martin really is now that he is out west. I think they will make the playoffs but won't get past the first round. They need one really good experience player to be a real contender. They just don't ahve a Duncan, O'Neal, or Garnett. And that is what is missing there.

[Soontir Solo]

Your Nuggets lost to the Lakers tonight Darthsolo

[DarthSolo]

I know,curses. i didnt see any of it, but iheard they slacked off and didnt hustle. That is uncalled for. but, i agree, i think they nugs wont really be a huge contender unless they get some good experience, or someone like mello really steps up as a leader and isnt a whiner. I think, depending on the match up and momentum, the nuggets could get out of the first round, but beyond that is even hard for me to see. and you all know from baseball what i could see lol.

[Queso]

I think that the Spurs are going to be the dominant team in there division.

After all they used to have who?

Dallas
Lakers
and I think that's it.
But look at the teams this season, not to many teams are the same as last year.

[The Bandit]

^

Did you see the Mavs/Kings game last night? I missed it, but I think big D might surprise everyone this year. They've got a real center, a nice backcourt rotation, and let's not forget about Dirk... 33 10 and 5 last night I think?

I'm looking forward to the first Mavs/Spurs game to see how those teams match up against each other. Still, I don't know if we'll seea "dominant" team in that division -- with the Spurs, Mavs and Rockets, plus the Grizz will be decent. New Orleans will probably be the bottom feeders there, but only because J-Mash is out for the year.

-- 2bq

[Queso]

Spurs....
altho i find it funny that the rivalirys here are named after the roads that take us to that city

ie Rockets/Spurs - I10 rivalry

[Soontir Solo]

The Mavericks won't do anything this year I don't think. I think they will get to the 2nd Round of the playoffs and lose to either the Spurs or T-Wolves. The Mavs are good but without a truly dominant big man like Duncan or Garnett they won't be able to be a serious contender.

[DarthSolo]

so, soontir, who's your team?

[Soontir Solo]

Well I have always been a fan of the New York Knicks and in Middle School I became a fan of the Spurs because I lived in Fort Hood, Texas.

Anyways that was a great night of basketball. 8 men scoring over 30. How about Ilgauskas. He had a crazy night.

[DarthSolo]

Nuggets! Beat the T-Wolves in OT. didnt see any of it cause i was busy and watching the trailer, but from what i read it seemed to be pretty intense! 6 techs, 2 ejections and 19 lead changes if i remember right! woohoo! go nuggets!

[The Bandit]

I saw the end of the game... 4th quarter on...

Sam-I-Am the Space Alien fouled Little Earl Boykins as he was going up to the basket. K-Mart shoved Cassell, Cassell caught the ball as it came down from Boykins' missed shot and threw it hard at K-Mart -- refs gave each guy a tech. Cassell kept arguing, got his second tech and was ejected.

KG (I *really* wish I had him on my fantasy team... Duncan will have to do this year I guess) hit a nice shot at the end of the 4th quarter to tie... still some time on the clock (10 seconds?) and the Nugs did hav a chance to win in regulation but couldn't do it.

K-Mart fouled out in OT -- kind of funny, Mello was called for the foul, started arguing with the ref and the ref's like "You're right, the foul was on Martin, that's 6, you're gone" -- KG had a chance to send it to Double OT but missed the shot.

-- 2bq

[RollaFett]

Fellow Sixer fan here, 2bq! I'm cautiously optimistic about them this year, as well. There are just a lot of 'if's', like you already said. I really like the fact that the young guys are getting chances to prove themselves. That was lacking terribly under Larry Brown's tenure.

[Dutch]

Another Sixer fan here.

I was at the Phoenix game last Friday night, and I gotta say Steve Nash is freaking amazing. They WILL make some noise in the West this year.

Tough loss to Detroit on Saturday. Hoping they can get back on track with a win at NY Tuesday night.

I still remain optimistic about a season a little bit above 0.500 this year. And I gotta tell you, with the Big Dog and Coleman gone they are instantly more fun to watch.

[Queso]

SPurs lost last night;....

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[Soontir Solo]

Dwayne Wade is rapidly becoming a super star, maybe Shaq won't have to carry the scoring load after all.

[RollaFett]

So far, he's not. Wade is friggin' awesome.

[Soontir Solo]

Carmello has really struggled this year. His shot is way off. He is only shooting like 30% from the field.

[Dutch]

Iverson finally hit a game winner.

[The Bandit]

^

Allen Iverson is amazing.

I wish I could have watched that game, but I ended up finding myself at MSG for Knicks/Clippers... got there a little bit late after buying tickets from the toothless man on the street -- it was 13 - 2 when I got to my seat and the Clips never got closer than 10 that I noticed.

The Knicks are fun to watch, even though I was rooting against them -- Jamal Crawford hit some nice threes, but Marbury is completely overrated as a point guard. For the Clips... wow, they're bad. Chris Wilcox made some nice dunks, as did Brand, but it translated into an L for them rather than a W -- they need to play better team ball.

-- 2bq

[DarthAnakin]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Nov 8 2004, 09:31 PM
Dwayne Wade is rapidly becoming a super star, maybe Shaq won't have to carry the scoring load after all.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Yeah I think the Wade and Shaq combo will bealot like the Shaq and Kobe combo. Both are superstars yet neither will have to carry the team by themselves. Also Caron Butler is very good so I think Miami has a good shot to win it all this year.

[DarthAnakin]

The Raptors have had a great start this year, every year there is rumours about Carter being traded, but I think this year he'll step it up and Toronto will have a good season. Still not a threat to win it all though.

[Soontir Solo]

I don't think Miami has a shot to win it all, I think they have a shot to win the East. But I don't see them beating San Antonio or Minnesota in the Finals.

[RollaFett]

Yeah I wonder about their depth. They'll certainly dominate the Eastern Conference, but depth really comes into play in the playoffs. If Shaq has foul issues, oh boy.

[Dutch]

Funny how nobody mentions the Pistons in the East. They won the title last year, and they completely shut down Snaq in the Finals, now all of the sudden this year Miami is the favorite cause they have Snaq?

Faulty logic there, methinks.

[Soontir Solo]

I said I thought Miami could come out of the East, but just because nobody mentions Detroit doesn't mean everybody thinks they won't make it. I think Detroit has a great shot to make it to the Finals, though I think Miami will pose a big threat to them. I think Detroit is a better team, but so far this year they really haven't shown it as much. I think Indiana as a good shot this year if Artest can get his act together. So basically I am saying the Pacers, Pistons, and Heat are the good Eastern Conference teams that might come out of the East, and I would say the Pistons are the favorite because they won the title last year and do have a really great team with good team chemistry.

[Dutch]

^

Fair enough

[Soontir Solo]

Just wanted to clear that up.

[DarthAnakin]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Nov 14 2004, 07:43 PM
I don't think Miami has a shot to win it all, I think they have a shot to win the East. But I don't see them beating San Antonio or Minnesota in the Finals.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I doubt Minnesota will make it that far.

[Dutch]

agreed

[Soontir Solo]

I think if it isn't San Antonio then it has to be Minnesota. Those are the top 2 teams in the West, by far in my opinion. Utah is playing great right now but they don't have the Duncan or Garnett that can get them deep into the playoffs. The Kings and Mavericks both have good teams but neither team can stand up to the Spuris or T-Wolves in my opinion.

[Dutch]

Minnesota is overrated. Garnett just doesn't have it in him to take them to the next level. 7 straight first round losses and last year they got their asses handed to them by a disfunctional Lakers team.

Garnett will be the Marino of the NBA when his career is over.

Keep an eye on Phoenix in the West.

[DarthAnakin]

Originally posted by Dutch@Nov 17 2004, 11:18 AM
Keep an eye on Phoenix in the West.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Exactly!

[Soontir Solo]

Phoenix? You must be kidding me. They will get to the 2nd round of the playoffs tops, though personally I dont' see them getting out of the first round.

And Minnesota isn't over-rated. And Garnett definitely isn't over-rated. Remember he was MVP last year. he puts up more double doubles than anybody else. He is a superstar in the NBA. The only team in the West that is better than the T-Wolves in my opinion is the Spurs. The T-Wolves have a good nucleus around Garnett, with Cassell, Sprewell, and Sczerviak all being great scorers and good defenders.

[Dutch]

Soontir,

have you seen them play at all this year?

They are much better than last year. Steve Nash is the best point guard in the NBA right now, IMHO. And he is getting their scorers the ball in positions where they have been lighting it up.

Their defense is very strong also.

Garnett's ability to lead a team to a championship and be a clutch player when the game is on the line is vastly overrated. And a double-double is about the most worthless stat in all of sports. So he can score more than 10 points and grab 10 rebounds in an 48 minute NBA game. At 6'11 and being the guy that takes the most shots on the team, I would hope so.

[Soontir Solo]

A Double Double is a worthless stat? That is just a lie right there. And Garnett's numbers are more like 25 points and 18 rebounds just so you know. He leads the league in rebounds this year, and has for the past few years. He is one of the top scorers and top defenders. This guy was MVP, you don't get made the MVP over guys like Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and Chris Webber unless your DAMN good. And he is still young, only like 28 I think. He is in his prime now.

I have seen the Suns play and they are looking good. But this is 7 games into the season and this team doesn't have what it takes to be a legitimate contender in the West. Steve Nash is not the best PG in the league first of all. Steve Francis, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Tony Parker, and Mike Bibby are all better than Nash. Nash is good, but he isn't that good.

And look at who the Suns have beat this year. The only respectable team, the team with real skill that they have beat is Dallas. There other wins came against Philadelphia, Atlanta, Chicago, and New Jersey, all mediocre teams at best with the last 3 being just plain bad. When they face contenders, like Sacramento and Cleveland they lost. Once they begin to beat some good of the top teams in the west (San Antonio, Minnesota, and Sacramento) then you can say the Suns are a contender.

[Dutch]

great thing about the season is that we shall see.

[Soontir Solo]

Indeed

[Soontir Solo]

The big thing so far about this season that I love is the comeback of Grant Hill. He had 32 last night and is averaging like 20 points a game. And he is getting better every game. I loved Grant Hill and am really happy is has gotten his ankle under control. He is one of the few NBA players I can actually repect, along with Tim Duncan. Hill and Francis are rapidly becoming one of the top duo's in the league. Francis had 33 points and 11 assists to go along with Hill's 32 points.

[Dutch]

^

and my Sixers OWNED them on Sunday

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif

[The Bandit]

^

Sunday was a very quiet blowout -- I looked away from the TV and all of a sudden the Sixers were up by like 17.

I went to the Sixers/Magic game in December last year in Philly and the Sixers also handled the Magic, although the Magic were *awful* at that point -- both AI and DC were injured for the game, and we still won by about 20... McGrady was playing like he didn't care about the game -- I think the Rockets got the downside of that trade -- Rudy T said "never underestimate the heart of a champion" -- McGrady doesn't have what it takes to win a championship. He's going to retire without a ring and he won't be one of those guys (Barkely, Malone, Ewing, GP) who I think deserved one.

-- 2bq

[Dutch]

^agreed on McGrady

I fear for the Sixers' lives tonight. The play SA. That could be ugly. Then Miami next, ugh...

[The Bandit]

The Sixers swept the season series with the Spurs last years two games to none - the Spurs haven't won a game in Philly since November 22nd 1999.

We'll see how things go tonight. I'm expecting Philly to lose, but I expect it to be a close game.

-- 2bq

[Soontir Solo]

I think McGrady has yet to unleash his full potential. He is obviously the best scorer in the league, winning the scoring title two years in a row. I think he will probably win a ring in his career. He is still very young, has a good 12-15 years left and with Yao Ming there that team should progress in the coming years to being a really good team. They are already good enough to make the playoffs.

[Soontir Solo]

Well I just did my All-Star voting

In the East I chose:

Lebron James
Allen Iverson
Jermaine O'Neal
Grant Hill
Shaquille O'Neal

In the West I chose:

Kobe Bryant
Manu Ginobli
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Yao Ming

[Kapit]

so, anyone catch the big fight during the pistons game the other night?

[LegendoftheJedi]

Yeah, that fight was crazy! It got out of hand real quick. The crowd put up a good fight though.

[Kapit]

i blame the person who threw that first cup, but artest DID NOT have to go into the stands like that, that was completely uncalled for and justr made the whole things worse

[LegendoftheJedi]

The whole thing could have been prevented...I guess.

I just caught the postgame press interview of the Syracuse/South Carolina football game. (I know its another sport!) But they had two huge brawls erupt before and during the game. But what I am getting at is the head coach of Syracuse blamed the fights on the one from the b-ball game the night before. For some reason everyone agreed with him. I dont get how one fight can cause another, just because it got airplay on every network that had news, ect. i dont know what is wrong with everyone these days... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/giveup.gif

[Kapit]

HA! last nights fight caused two others today?!?

right, sure, that makes sense, you know cause there's no alcohol around, right?

(BTW, nice sig, homer's the best)

[Master Cephus]

the fan might have threw a glass of something, but those guys get payed millions of dollars to not do things like that.

All I hear is that it was self-defense....since when is getting pelted with water going to kill you? All he had to do to be safe was get in the middle of the court, or go to the locker room until it was over. He over-reacted and should be suspended for the rest of the season with no pay along with every player who threw a punch at a fan. The players who threw punches at other players should receive a 10 game suspension


This is a great oppertunity for the NBA to show the fans and everyone else that it is not a thug sport, and they can control themselves.

And on top of that, for Artest to be let back in next year, he should do some PSAs on violence in sports and it's wrong.

[Kapit]

oh man, wallace out 6 games, o'neal out 25, johnson out 30 and artest

WHOLE SEASON

[Soontir Solo]

DANG! Those suspensions are crazy. There goes the Pacers season.

[Master Cephus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>DANG! Those suspensions are crazy. There goes the Pacers season.[/b][/quote]

It should...it should show those guys just what happens when they do something stupid like that

[LegendoftheJedi]

A total of nine players got suspended...heres the list.

Indiana
Ron Artest - season
Stephen Jackson - 30 games
Jermaine Oneal - 25 games
Anthony Johnson - 5 games
Reggie Miller - 1 game

Detroit
Ben Wallace - 6 games
Chauncey Billups - 1 game
Elden Campbell - 1 game
Derrick Coleman - 1 game

[Soontir Solo]

I was expecting like 10-15 game suspensions for Artest, O'Neal, and Jackson. I certainly didn't expect Artest to be suspended for the rest of the year. He probably isn't even mad though, it will give him time to promote his rap album, since he wanted to take off time anyways to promoted it. Artest has proven that he is pathetic though. He doesn't respect anybody.

[Kapit]

hold on, what did billups, campbell, coleman and miller do?

[LegendoftheJedi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>hold on, what did billups, campbell, coleman and miller do?[/b][/quote]

Im not really sure. ESPN wasnt very informative. But here is the article that they posted.


ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1928540)

[Soontir Solo]

During the figh with Wallace and Artest they went on the court, something they aren't allowed to do. They didn't get in trouble for fighting the fans.

[Kapit]

oh, okay, thanks SS

[Jango]

Well are there any maverick fans out there because they just lost two straight and im hoping for them to pull out against san antonio tomorrow. That would put them in first place in southwest division.

[Zobb]

I think the fans who threw beer and chairs should be put in jail, and banned from the Palace.

[DarthSolo]

Originally posted by JediKaputski@Nov 21 2004, 04:31 PM
hold on, what did billups, campbell, coleman and miller do?
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

NBA gives automatic 1 game suspensions for leaving the bench during a fight.

Originally posted by Jango@Nov 23 2004, 09:29 PM
Well are there any maverick fans out there because they just lost two straight and im hoping for them to pull out against san antonio tomorrow. That would put them in first place in southwest division.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

i was actually at the game they lost against denver! WOOHOO! is Dirk playing again tough? he left for no reason in the 3rd i think. I hope he's ok i like Dirk.

Originally posted by Zobb@Nov 24 2004, 06:45 PM
I think the fans who threw beer and chairs should be put in jail, and banned from the Palace.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

i agree fully!

[Kapit]

i think it's pretty stupid that people on ESPN and such are STILL going on about it!

c'mon, it happend, we're all upset in some way, move on

[Soontir Solo]

But this will be rememberd 30 years from now. That was unlike any situation in sports history. At least American sports. The repercussions are still being felt.

[Kapit]

whatever, it's pointless to keep going on about it, it happened, oh no, boo hoo, let's move on

[Soontir Solo]

This has repercussions I don't think you quite get. It gives the NBA a bad image, a image they have to try and counter now. It puts the whole sport in a bad light, in a way no other sport has ever been in American History. I think it was David Stern himself who said that this is the 9/11 of the NBA.

[Kapit]

no, i don't think so, i think people are making it out to be a bigger deal than it really is

it was a fight, it was artests own damn fault for going into the stands, he should get all of the blame, i mean, if you run into the stands and start punching a guy, you're gonna get a lot of crap coming your way very quickly

had he not run into the stands, none of this would've happened, but no, he had to take offense and be an idiot

and you can't entirley blame this on the fans, or think that all pistons fans get drunk and throw crap at people, that's just not true

as to it being the 9/11 of the NBA, i don't think so, yeah it's not good, but it's not like it's going to be devastating

it's just being blown completly out of proportion

[Dutch]

^

Agree completely

I remember there was some incident a few years ago with a few NHL players climbing into the stands (over the peanalty box glass, no less) and not too many people gave a damn about it or probably even remember it now.

In fact, the NHL probably just gave them 10 minutes more on their peanalty and let it go at that (but this isn't the place to rant about how stupid I think hockey is)

Stern's punishment was awesome and totally deserved for all parties, but this really doesn't put the NBA in such a bad light, IMHO.

If NFL fans were that close to the field, this would have happened long ago, with all the alcohol and testosterone flowing at those events.

[DarthSolo]

THis is going to be discussed forever. IMO its everyones fault. The Palace for not having enough security. Ben Wallace for over reacting in the first place. Ron Artest for fouling the guy so hard for no reason, and for being such a FREAKIN PANSY JEKR FACE in the first place, and for going into the stands. Stephen jackson for going into the stands for NO REASON! He didnt have anything thrown at him in the first place, he just went in for Artest. ugh. I think the fans were dick wads for throwing stuff at the players in the first place. the refs didnt have control of the game from the start. they let some stuff go farther than it should have. Oh yeah, and Artest, if he didnt want to be involved in the fight, shouldnt have laid his cocky ass down on the scorer's table. He shoulda walked across the court. Then no one woulda thrown anything. Its travesty! Its a sham! Its a mockery! Its a TRAVESHAMOCKERY!

[/rant]

[Soontir Solo]

The NBA has prided itself on being good family entertainment. But when not just one of there stars, but 3 of them start hitting fans what does that say about the NBA? What does it say when you have little kids crying in the stands and people screaming because they are afraid at that game? It says the NBA isn't good family entertainment. It says the NBA players are becoming "thugs" rather than real men like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Karl Malone were. The NBA used to be a league with players who were well respected. Now the NBA is a league where just a few players are respected, mainly Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, and some of the older veterans. No one respects the likes of Artest, Iverson, Pierce, Sprewel, and other young stars. Because of there antics on and off the floor. This incident just put this kind of stuff in the spotlight.

Should a family be scared of going to a NBA Game? Is the NBA a league of money hungry thugs or gentlemen? Is the NBA good family entertainment? Do the players respect the game?

These are all questions that now must be answered and solved. I don't think this is being blown out of proportion out of all, just like 9/11 wasn't blown out of proportion.

[Soontir Solo]

And I have no doubt it was mainly Artests fault, I am not arguing about whose fault the incident was but its effect on the NBA and how this isn't being blown out of proportion, this really is that big of a situation.

[Kapit]

see, i don't think so, it was a fight, whoop dee do!

the problem is we've got the media people all saying it was this HUGE fight that wsa nothing more than drunk people and angry players

it's not the end of the world

[DarthSolo]

Ill tell you where the problem lies. It is in the fact that these guys get paid so friggin much! these absurd amounts of money go to their head and all of a sudden they think they rule the world. Wasnt it sprewell that complained about only getting 7 mil a year? saying something like "hows a guy gonna feed his wife and kids on 7 million dollars a year?" I heard he said it TWiCE! This is absolutely retarted! NO ONE should be getting this much money!

[Soontir Solo]

He actually said he needed 10 Million a year to feed his family. That is what I am talking about the whole money hungry I can do whatever I want thug kind of image the NBA has now. And this fight is what caused it. David Stern himself has talked about this kind of stuff, now wanting to clean up the image of the NBA. It will be interesting to see in the coming months how things change.

[Kapit]

the fight didn't cause the money hungry thug image, that happened when people started asking for more and more money, and it's a problem EVERYWHERE, not just the NBA, not even just other sports, but EVERYWHERE

[Soontir Solo]

People ask for more and more money in EVERY sport but no other sport has such a bad reputation as basketball, especially after this fight. No other sport identifies itself so strongly with the "thug" image.

[DarthSolo]

i agree with Kaput that its a problem everywhere, but the NBA has become the worst of them as far as a "thug" image is concerned.

[Dutch]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>No other sport identifies itself so strongly with the "thug" image. [/b][/quote]

Now tell us why you think that is?

Could it be that 80% of the league is young african american males?

[Queso]

most likely.

[Soontir Solo]

Is that percentage any different than in Football? No it isn't. Yet football is a league that is very respected and you don't really have players with bad reputations besides TO.

Did Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Kareem, Clyde Drexler, Hakeem Olojuwon, Karl Malone, or the other African American stars of the 80's and 90's seem like thugs? I don't think so. Only when the likes of Artest, Iverson, and Sprewell came about did the NBA get bad reputations, and the Kobe Bryant situation last year didn't help with many believing he really did rape that girl.

[Master Cephus]

You have to remember that these guys make a lot of money, but they spend a lot too. Those guys have agents, assistants, press people, and a whole lot of other things. These guys can't just buy a house on the corner...think what would happen if a NBA star came into your neighborhood...they have to have security. They have fancy things, but I bet those fancy things comes with a huge pricetag and I bet the insurance they pay isn't cheap...

I am not saying that they make too much money or not enough, but don't just think they pocket $7 million a year because they pay taxes and have employees and all that.

I think the reason why the NBA has such a "thug" look to it is because that is where the game came from (what it is today). Basketball is probably the biggest sport in urban areas because the field is small enough and the gear to play it is cheap. Now all these people growing up around basketball do other things and they blend. It is true that the urban areas of our country are more "thuggish" and that is the reason why the NBA is as well.

Why does rap music seem "thuggish" because that is where it came from.

[DarthSolo]

Everyone has to pay taxes and insurance and be responsible for what they buy. These guys dont have to buy these expensive things! Theres no reason for it. And there is no reason for our culture to bow down and practically worship these guys. Its too much, IMO. If an NBA star came into my nieghbor hood there would be a frenzy for acouple weeks, and then it would just be like real life, you just happen to live next to a really tall in shape dude. Yeah, it would change things, but these guys draw attention to themselves with their fancy cars and limos, and huge houses. No, its not all their fault, its mostly media, but i still think its crazy that people can make 7 mil a year and complain about it!

[Master Cephus]

How many stars have you heard that have to put restraining orders on people to keep them away? These people just can't live in regular hosues in regular neighborhoods. They have to have some type of security measures that will keep them safe.

I agree that they don't have to buy expensive cars and clothes and stuff. That is a luxury that they get because of what they make. Now a house, when you have to have the seclusion they need and the security, it usually means they get other amenities which means a higher price.

I know you talk about how they are over payed, but what about the league and the owners? Do you think they get too much? If you were a player, wouldn't you want something if people were buying shirts and jerseys with your name on it? Wouldn't you be entitle to that?

If the players didn't make what they made, the owners and the league would be getting 100 times more money.

[Soontir Solo]

Does a NBA Player need a 5 Million dollar mansion like most of them think they do? No they don't. Do they need multiple cars that are all insanely expensive? No they don't! Do they need all the fine jewelry, electronics, etc? No they don't! I don't doubt they need alot of money when they have a 5 million dollar mansion, 6 cars all costing over 50,000 dollars, enough jewelry to create a jewelry shop, and who knows what else. The point is that if they were responsible with there money they wouldn't have to say they needed $10 million a year like Sprewell said. All Sports athletes are money hungry, arrogant, and most just don't care about others. This is a problem with the entertainment industry as a whole.

And I don't dout the owners and such are over-paid, the whole industry is screwed up. But the players are the ones in the spotlight, the ones kids are trying to be like. NOT the owners, agents, and others.

[DarthSolo]

Originally posted by Master Cephus@Nov 29 2004, 10:28 AM
How many stars have you heard that have to put restraining orders on people to keep them away? These people just can't live in regular hosues in regular neighborhoods. They have to have some type of security measures that will keep them safe.

Yeah, they should have to have some sort of security system and whatnot, maybe i over spoke a bit there, maybe.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I agree that they don't have to buy expensive cars and clothes and stuff. That is a luxury that they get because of what they make. Now a house, when you have to have the seclusion they need and the security, it usually means they get other amenities which means a higher price.

I know you talk about how they are over payed, but what about the league and the owners? Do you think they get too much? If you were a player, wouldn't you want something if people were buying shirts and jerseys with your name on it? Wouldn't you be entitle to that?
[/b][/quote]
Yes, i do think the league and the owners get too much. i think its absurd how much we pay to go to these games, and how much these pieces of cloth with numbers and letters on them cost. I think a hat with a logo on it doesnt cost 25 bucks to produce, and it shouldnt cost 25 dollars to buy. Do we really need to be selling these things? Holding these people so high above everyone else?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If the players didn't make what they made, the owners and the league would be getting 100 times more money.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]
Yes, the league would, and i think the league shoudnt be charging so much for everything. Prices are absurdly high on tickets and everything you buy inside the arena.

I guess im not only critisizing the players, but the whole system and even our culture that holds these people up so high. And, of course, im a hypocrite with a jersey or two in my closet, and i pay these prices to see these games and love it, but, especially recently, it all just seeems so absurd.

[Soontir Solo]

Your trying to take the middle road I think DS.

[DarthSolo]

lol, hey i didnt become class president for no reason! But, in all seriousness, its a tough issue. These guys are famous beyond everything, which isnt their fault, its the fact that we lift them up so much, and therefore it would be pretty hard for them to live in a regular neighborhood. I still think, with some changes, they could probably do it. Yeah, itd be hard, but i think they could deal. I think it is absurd how much money they make, how much we get charged for these items of NBA (and every league) parafanalia (sp?), and how much we pay for tickets. I reallly think its crazy how much money these leagues take in, when we think about it there are much more important things we could be putting our money into.....but anyway, that is not what this thread is about. back to the NBA eh?

[Soontir Solo]

I think the NBA should be taxed more personally. But anyways..........I think most NBA players can live in a regular neighborhoods, its only the starts of the league that would have trouble, namely Kobe, Shaq, Iverson, now Artest, Garnett, Duncan, Lebron, and Carter.

I think pretty much everyone else wouldn't have that big of a problem

[James T. Skywalker]

I don't think Tim Duncan or LeBron James would have too much trouble living in a "regular" neighborhood. James lived in one up until last year, and Duncan lived in relative 'obscurity' for years in the US Virgin Islands.

Also, I lived in a neighborhood just a few years ago that was a popular place for members of the Sacramento Kings to reside. Brian Grant, Corliss Williamson, Jason Williams, Scot Pollard and Mitch Richmond all resided in my neighborhood at some point during their tenures with the Kings. I even met Grant and Williamson on our street a few times.

~JTS

[Soontir Solo]

Good point JTS, though with Lebron I think it would be a little harder now with him having so much spotlight on hism these days.

[Master Cephus]

The problem isn't just with athletes, it's with all events...

When is the last time any of you went to a concert? the price for a concert ticket is astronomical.

I think the problem is that you don't think they should make that much, because most people don't have that much.

We act like those guys don't do anything when bottom line, those guys train ALL the time (those that are pretty good do at least). $10 million a year is a lot of money and I am not saying that they should be paid that much, but if they are good and someone wants to pay them that much, why not? If I were that good and someone offered me that much, I would take it in a heartbeat (and I imagine most of you would to)...

How many of us would turn down $10 million a year, and then take $1 milion because we really don't need that much?

[DarthSolo]

Originally posted by Master Cephus@Nov 30 2004, 08:05 AM
The problem isn't just with athletes, it's with all events...

When is the last time any of you went to a concert? the price for a concert ticket is astronomical.

agreed, its for just about everything, not just sports.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I think the problem is that you don't think they should make that much, because most people don't have that much.

We act like those guys don't do anything when bottom line, those guys train ALL the time (those that are pretty good do at least). $10 million a year is a lot of money and I am not saying that they should be paid that much, but if they are good and someone wants to pay them that much, why not? If I were that good and someone offered me that much, I would take it in a heartbeat (and I imagine most of you would to)...

How many of us would turn down $10 million a year, and then take $1 milion because we really don't need that much?
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]
if i ever become excessively rich i plan on only living a comfortable life, not an excessive one...urg, this is turning into a much different kind of debate/discussion. Id love to take it up (so PM me if you want to), but this isnt the thread for it.

[Soontir Solo]

I personally wouldn't mind having a high salary in the NBA or anyother sport, because I could turn around and give most of it to charity and such rather than take a lesser salary and allowing some money hungry fool to get more money when he doesn't need it.

Just imagine if all Professional Sports athletes gave just 25% of what they make every year to charity? I can tell you right now the world would be a better place.

[Master Cephus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>if i ever become excessively rich i plan on only living a comfortable life, not an excessive one...urg, this is turning into a much different kind of debate/discussion. Id love to take it up (so PM me if you want to), but this isnt the thread for it.[/b][/quote]

It's on topic, we are talking about the salaries of NBA players...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I personally wouldn't mind having a high salary in the NBA or anyother sport, because I could turn around and give most of it to charity and such rather than take a lesser salary and allowing some money hungry fool to get more money when he doesn't need it.

Just imagine if all Professional Sports athletes gave just 25% of what they make every year to charity? I can tell you right now the world would be a better place.[/b][/quote]

Imagine if EVERYONE gave 25% of what they make, what a difference that would make. Just because you are rich doesn't mean that you are the person to give...just because you are poor doesn't mean you get a free ride either style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Soontir Solo]

Many people can't afford to give 25%, NBA players can though. The one thing I liked about John Kerry was his plan for increasing taxes on the wealthy. I think, personally, anybody has makes over $80,000 a year should have a tax increase.

But that is off topic.

The NBA should install a hard salary cap, like the NFL has. That would solve alot of problems.

[James T. Skywalker]

Even the Bible says that 10% is enough. 25% is pretty high for even atheletes, I think.

~JTS

[Soontir Solo]

Look at Shaq who makes 30 mill a year. 10% would only be 3 mill of that. Why does Shaq need 27 Mill? He doesn't! Nobody does.

[Queso]

*Shrugs* oh well....

hey how's the Spurs ranked in the NBA?

[Dutch]

#1 in my book.

I just don't see a team that can beat them in 7 games this year, unless they get hit with some injuries.

They're not my favorite team, but I really like their players, their coach, and the way they go out and play hard without really any showboating. They're definitely a throwback team.

[Queso]

yeah...Pops is cool. I wonder how many gamese he'll get thrown out of this year...i think he made last season with only one.

[The Bandit]

This is a pre-brawl article about Ron Artest --

http://www.bullysports.com/bully/home/Arti...NHu_4598360&v=1 (http://www.bullysports.com/bully/home/ArticlesBody.htm?articleid=117&s=K621qDNHu_4598360&v=1)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>One off-season, while still playing for the Chicago Bulls, Ron Artest applied for a job at Circuit City. On the job application he wrote down "NBA player" as his last job and used Bulls president Jerry Krause's name as a reference. And he did it all just so he could get the employee discount on home electronics.


Go back and read that paragraph again. An NBA player, earning a seven-digit salary, applied for a job at Circuit City so he could get 10%-15% off of his electronics purchases. He didn't offer to sign a few autographs for customers if they'd give him a deal. He didn't try and use his status as a basketball player to get free stuff. He applied for a summer job. That's the type of guy we're dealing with here. So before you start piling on Mr. Artest for his latest antics, remember that we are dealing with a different cat here, and the normal rules don't apply.[/b][/quote]

[DarthSolo]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thud.gif wow. what a guy.

[Master Cephus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Go back and read that paragraph again. An NBA player, earning a seven-digit salary, applied for a job at Circuit City so he could get 10%-15% off of his electronics purchases. He didn't offer to sign a few autographs for customers if they'd give him a deal. He didn't try and use his status as a basketball player to get free stuff. He applied for a summer job. That's the type of guy we're dealing with here. So before you start piling on Mr. Artest for his latest antics, remember that we are dealing with a different cat here, and the normal rules don't apply.[/b][/quote]


so does that make him a good person or a bad person? I don't get it...

[Queso]

he's the same guy who asked for time of to promote some album....

[Dutch]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>so does that make him a good person or a bad person? I don't get it... [/b][/quote]

don't know, but I can say it makes him a cheap *******.

[Queso]

lol...yeah and his selfishness has made eveyone forget about basketball and made him the center of attention

[Master Cephus]

He is that guy that drives into a Circuit City or a Best Buy in a Mercedes and tries to jip the place...pitiful!

[The Bandit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>He is that guy that drives into a Circuit City or a Best Buy in a Mercedes and tries to jip the place...pitiful![/b][/quote]

I wouldn't say he's trying to rip the place off -- stores like that give an employee discount because they WANT the employees to spend money there. I did a summer stint at Best Buy selling digital cameras and as an employee was encouraged to shop there and spend my paycheck on neat techno toys and DVDs and such.

Retail outlets like Circuit City are still making a profit on employee sales (at Best Buy you paid 5% above the store's cost on items -- not sure what the deal at Circuit City is/was).

I think it's fairly awesome that Artest pulled that stunt, because we really don't have enough crazy people around in the entertainment industry, especially now that Wesley Willis is dead. Unfortunately he couldn't keep himself restrained to entertaining crazy things -- when he got violent crazy he clearly crossed the line.

With all this talk about how much money these guys make, and all the bellyaching about it -- if you don't approve of their salaries don't buy the product. Don't watch the game, don't buy products that are advertised during the broadcasts of the games, don't go to games, don't buy merchandise. If you do any of these things and still complain about the "obscene" amount of cash these guys are raking in you've lost all credibility in my book.

No one should be forced to pay a percentage of their income to charity -- that's a personal choice -- taking that choice away moves us toward socialism/communism and we've all seen how well that worked out in other nations.

[Master Cephus]

I worked at Worst Buy myself and I know that they like for you to spend your money there... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/barf.gif


I kind of agree with you about buying the product. I really don't think that the salaries will ever go down (it's like the price of gasoline...why would they offer it less if you pay this much now?).

I think that a (stiff) salary cap would be nice, but the player's union would never go for it. I think there is just too much money involved in the whole process....

[DarthSolo]

Originally posted by 2 Butterflies Quarrleing@Dec 1 2004, 01:56 PM
With all this talk about how much money these guys make, and all the bellyaching about it -- if you don't approve of their salaries don't buy the product. Don't watch the game, don't buy products that are advertised during the broadcasts of the games, don't go to games, don't buy merchandise. If you do any of these things and still complain about the "obscene" amount of cash these guys are raking in you've lost all credibility in my book.

No one should be forced to pay a percentage of their income to charity -- that's a personal choice -- taking that choice away moves us toward socialism/communism and we've all seen how well that worked out in other nations.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

So, just because someone doesnt agree with parts of the NBA means they should have to disconnect themselves with it completely? Including not buying any products that happen to buy into tv time? Its not their fault the culture poors so much money into it! I happen to like basketball, played it in high school. Just because i dont think shaq should make 30 mil a year means that i should be deprived of watching a sport i love, or having anything to do with it? You do have a point, but i think you go a bit over board.

And yes, no one should be forced to do anything (except keep the law i guess), but it would be nice to see people who do make excessive amounts of money donating some of their excess to good causes.

[Dutch]

Jebus Christ, the Spurs killed the Sixers last night. I watched that game and I have come to the conclusion that Duncan doesn't suck.

Anyone agree?

[The Bandit]

^

NBA TV cut the game off halfway through the fourth quarter... It was tied at 25 after the first and I was psyched for a good game... instead I got the worst of it all -- watched my team get killed, and Duncan didn't even play the 4th quarter so his fantasy line wasn't nearly as good as it could have been had it been a close game.

Duncan's got two rings, consistently gives you 25 and 10 or thereabouts, and it took his beating a so-so Sixers team for you to figure out htat he doesn't suck? Wow.

-- 2bq

[Queso]

lol...i could have told you that Dutch

[Soontir Solo]

Duncan is probably the one guy in the NBA everyone admires. He is not only the best big man in the league but he and Grant Hill seem to be two of the few NBA players who act like gentlemen, like Michael Jordan and Karl Malone did. If I had the first pick in the NBA draft and could pick anyone in the NBA right now I would pick Tim Duncan.

[Dutch]

^

I hope you're kidding (as I was with the Duncan doesn't suck naivete)

Jordan was a smug, trash-talking, holier than thou prick, and from most former players accounts Malone was one of the cheapest dirtiest players in the league at the time.

Not two of the guys that I would personally put on a pedastal, Soontir.

[Soontir Solo]

Are you sure you even know who Jordan and Malone are? We are talking about the two greatest players at there positions ever! Jordan was the player everyone admired. He didn't trash talk much, he never got in fights, he never caused controversy, and he certainly wasn't a prick. Others might have saw him that way but when your the best ever people are going to be jealous.

As for Malone he was another guy that will go down in history as not only talented but great because of not just how he played (and he didn't play dirty, I dont' know where you are getting that from. If former Power Forwards are saying that it is probably because Malone was so much better than they were and they were making excuses). Malone was as straight up as they came. Him and John Stockton were probably the most loved duo in the 90's after Jordan and Pippen.

[Dutch]

^

I wasn't saying that they weren't two of the best players of their time. Can you read? I said that they were not really gentlemen, although if you blindly follow everything the sports media tells you you would never know that.

Jordan rarely trash talked..... that is rich.

[Soontir Solo]

You have got to be kidding me. On the basketball court those 2 were as clean as they come. Jordan would trash talk sometimes, mainly in the 80's, but in the 90's he hardly ever trash talked. And you never heard him argue with Dennis Rodman and make comments about him everytime Rodman did something crazy. The same thing with Malone, even more so really. He didn't play dirty at all, he never caused any controversy, he was a huge humanitarian (like Jordan was), and he is remembered as being a gentlemen.

[The Bandit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The same thing with Malone, even more so really. He didn't play dirty at all, he never caused any controversy, he was a huge humanitarian (like Jordan was), and he is remembered as being a gentlemen.[/b][/quote]

Umm... tell that to all the guys that he elbowed over the years -- including one whose college bball career was ended by it.

http://www.makingpages.org/hoops/Malone.danger.html

Look, Malone is an entertaining guy to listen to, a great player -- but a dirty player. Just because you like the guy don't put him up on a pedestal -- I'm a Barkley fan and I never pretended that he didn't play dirty.

-- 2bq

[RollaFett]

Ahhhh...good ole' Chuck. Now he was, hell, still is highly entertaining.

[Soontir Solo]

Dirk had 53 points last night for Mavericks, crazy.



Anyways back to Malone. I never really liked Malone that much so I am not putting him on a pedestal because I like him. I am putting him on a pedestal about of how he played the game. You act as if Malone is the only player to throw elbows in basketball? And you act like you did it intentionall. And you act like he did it all the time. That simply isn't the case. Malone didn't intentionall elbow people and definitely didn't make a career of it like you are insinuating.

And Barkley didn't play dirty either. He was just a basketball player who played hard.

[DarthSolo]

I dont know, i never got a good imression of malone, but ive always hated the jazz...But he alwasy seemed kinda like a cocky jerk. I remember that wreastling match between him and rodman in the finals of 98. that was probably mostly rodman, but malone still played the other half. I dont know, malone has never come across like Jordan did to me.

[Soontir Solo]

When you have Rodman guarding you and being the kind of person Rodman is and with it being a playoff atmosphere and emotions running high could you blame him? And if I remember right it was Rodman who started the whole thing.

[RollaFett]

Yeah, you do remember right. Rodman did start that whole mess. That said, Malone has never been known as some sort of Mr. Nice guy on the court.

[Soontir Solo]

Who would want to be a "Mr. Nice Guy" on the court? No one wants to be that. You want to be tough and determined, which is what Malone was. I dont' think there is a such thing as a "Mr. Nice Guy" on the court in the NBA.

[RollaFett]

Grant Hill.

[Soontir Solo]

Even Grant Hill plays hard, he doesn't take crap from anyone. He gets in there and gets rebounds with the big guys and isn't afraid to make contact.

[RollaFett]

There's nothing wrong with playing tough like that, just as long as you aren't dirty, and they're have always been some rumblings about that with Malone.

[Soontir Solo]

There are also rumblings about that with Shaq, there were with Patrick Ewing as well. People even complain about Garnett throwing elbows sometimes.

Being great means people look to criticize you and make up excuses as to how they can be so good.

[RollaFett]

Can't argue with that.

[T-bone]

* comes in, throws elbow, leaves...

[Dutch]

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm

and not only that but he was a dick on the court.

[Soontir Solo]

Interesting site, I disagree whole heartedly with just about everything on it but whatever.

And Jordan wasn't a "dick" on the court. You never saw him get into fights and he rarely trash talked.

Jordan is the best basketball player ever, if the Sports Analysts at ESPN all agree, and they aren't giving a biased view of Jordan like the site claims, that is just slander, and most people who watch basketball agree then I would ahve to agree. I remember how Michael Jordan played. I remembered how he dominated the Jazz for two years in the Finals. I remember how he could hit shots no one else could. I remember how all of his team mates loved him. I remember how his coaches loved him. I remember how every other basketball player wanted to be him. I know is PPG average for his career was better than anyone elses ever, or at least it was before those 2 years with the Wizards. I remember how he won 6 Championships, and would have won more if he hadn't done the baseball thing for 2 years or retired after the 6 championship.

Watching Jordan play in the 90's, it was incredible.

[The Bandit]

^

Wilt was better. Bill Russell was better.

Jordan got a lot of help from the refs, especially in those finals versus the Jazz -- you couldn't sneeze on the guy without a foul being called.

-- 2bq

[Dutch]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Interesting site, I disagree whole heartedly with just about everything on it but whatever.
[/b][/quote]

Nothing like letting a little bit of meaningless stuff like statistics and facts get in the way of your pre-conceived notions,huh?

[Soontir Solo]

If Jordan got help do you honestly think Russell or Wilt wouldn't have either? And Bill Russell was better at defensive, buts its offensive that makes you great. Wilt had a few incredible seasons but overall, when looking at his and Jordan's careers they just don't compare. Jordan averaged more points for his career, won more titles, got more MVP's, All-Stars, and all those types of awards, and was playing at the harder position while he did all this. It is much easier for a center, in a league where centers aren't that strong and tall yet, to get alot of points at that time, but it isn't easy for a SG to get a-lot of points and make the kind of contributions Michael Jordan did.

[The Bandit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And Bill Russell was better at defensive, buts its offensive that makes you great.[/b][/quote]

How many points per game is Kobe dropping this year? What's the Lakers record?

How many championships have the 'allas Mavericks and 'irk Nowitzki won in the past few years? They score a lot of points, but that doesn't translate into wins.

Look at the Spurs -- Duncan is a defensive minded player. He gets his 20 points, but he's also gonna give you something like 12 - 15 rebounds every came, a few blocks and not a lot of turnovers.

Bill Russell played in the NBA for 13 seasons. He won 11 championships. And who was he beating every year to make it to the NBA finals? Wilt Chamberlain, who won one title during Russell's playing years (1967 with the Sixers)

Russell's career numbers, for the record -- 15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, 4.3 apg with a .440 career field goal percentage.

Wilt wold have a lot more championships if it hadn't been for Russell. Career numbers - 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, .540 career field goal percentage.

-- 2bq

[Soontir Solo]

Comparing this situation to Kobe is ridiculous. Kobe Bryant isn't anywhere near what Michael Jordan was. He isn't half the leader Michael Jordan was, and he can't take over a game like Michael Jordan could.

The Mavericks get a-lot of points but I am not talking about a team here, but individuals, so this comparison is mute. A great offense doesn't make a great team. The Bulls had a great offense and a great defense. They had the whole package, mainly because of Michael and Scottie.

Duncan isn't defensive minded. He is most definitely offensive minded. He'll give you 25 points a game and the fact is he is the driving force behidn that offense. Throw it down to him, he'll draw the double team a-lot, and he can flip it out to Parker, Ginobali, Bowen, or another good shooter. Yes he will get you 2 blocks a game. His whole team is good at defense, but defense doesn't make you great. Being a great scorer and winner makes you great. Duncan is a great scorer and a great winner, which is what makes him great.

So are you trying to argue that both Wilt and Russell were better than Jordan? Jordan's numbers are better than Wilts and he has won more championships, MVP's, etc. And Russell is definitely the best defensive player ever, but does that make him the best ever? I don't think so. Russell couldn't take over a game like Jordan could. Russell wasn't feared like Jordan was. Russell wasn't near the scorer that Jordan was.

The way Jordan would single handidly take over games and how no one could ever stop him.........that is something unique to only Jordan.

[Jjm3233]

Umh, Soontir go to ESPN classic and watch those Bulls games. Watch as he makes comments to Ehlo, Dumars, Miller, etc.. He talked quite a bit of trash, he just kept his image clean - by not doing it with a mic in his face.

[Dutch]

It is impossible to get a jordan jocker who was weaned on a steady diet of Sports Center for his entire life to accept the fact that other players might have been at the same level as "Mike"

I guess Jabbar's 6 championships, multiple MVP's, and All-time leading scorer's status don't make him a candidate for best of all-time. He didn't play in the era of 24 hour a day sports coverage and fantasy leagues though

I guess Oscar Robertson's career numbers that look just about the same as Mike's (better even) even though he was about the same size as Jordan don't make him as good a choice for best of all time.

I guess the fact that Bird and Magic led their teams to play in almost every Finals of the 1980's when the teams were more competitive than they are now because the league had less teams and wasn't as watered down with mediocre talents doesn't make them credible candidates.

To say that he was one of the all-time greats is indisputable, but to just blindly say he was "the best" because of what you remember seeing in the 90's, not to mention the best athlete of all time (as ESPN voted him) is flat out ridiculous.

P.S. 2bq: I agree wholeheartedly about his preferential treatment after his first comeback. If his shoelace grazed a defender it was a foul. It was a non-stop parade to the free throw line for him in the fourth quarter of any game that was close.

Come on Soontir, tell us how he "earned" the right for this treatment.

[Soontir Solo]

This is such a matter of opinion but look at those players and sports analysts who have been around for a long time and seen all the greats play. Even they are almost in complete agreeance that Jordan was the best ever.

Yes Jabbar won championships, but we all now Magic Johnson was the heart of the Laker team in the 80's. And Jabbar is only the all time scoring leader because Michael played baseball for 2 years and retired early on. If he had played as long as Jabbar he would have had thoursands of more points than Jabbar. Look at career scoring average. That will prove it too you. Yes Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double, but could he hold up against Jordan do you think? Could he take over a game like Jordan could? I don't think so.

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were both great players, but even those players had the teammate around them that were amazing. Jordan had Pippen, which doesn't equal a Jabbar or McHale or James Worthy. Bird and Johnson couldn't take over a game like Jordan could. Bird was a great shooter, probably the best ever. But he doesn't compare to Jordan overall. He was better at the 3 point shot, that is all. Magic was a better passer than Jordan, and that is all.

Jordan is the best athlete of all time. The entire professional sports world pretty much agree's on it, as do I. He did things know one else could do.

Why do you think people are always trying to figure out "who will be the next Jordan?" when players like Kobe, Vince, and Lebron came out? You sure don't hear people talking about how is going to be the next Bird, Johnson, or Jabbar do you? Because they were Michael Jordan.

[Dutch]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan is the best athlete of all time.[/b][/quote]

Give me a freakin break.

Better than Deion Sanders who played two professional sports simultaneously, whereas Jordan failed miserably at the Minor leagues in baseball?

A better athlete than John Elway who was one of the greatest QB's of all time and got drafted to play MLB?

[DarthSolo]

im a big michael Jordan fan, and he is deffinetly one of the best basketball players of all time and one of the best athletes of all time. its really a matter of opinion.

[Soontir Solo]

Dutch: Was Deion Sanders all that great at baseball? Honestly now give me a break. 50 years from now people won't be thinking abotu Deion Sanders when they think of the great athletes of all time. He did nothing great in baseball, even missed part of the season because of football every year, and even in football his contributions were only for a few seasons when the Cowboys were great. He didn't control a sport for 15 years like Jordan did.

And Elway is a great QB. But just because he was drafted by the MLB doesn't mean anything. You can't judge how GREAT of an athlete he was because of a sport he never even played professionally. Elway isn't even the best QB every, much less the best athlete ever.

[The Bandit]

Just watched the Sonics/Mavs game (yay for league pass)... man, the Sonics are good. They're really ****ing good.

-- 2bq

[Soontir Solo]

They are having a good run, but the Sonics aren't that good. Reality will catch up with them soon.

[The Bandit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>They are having a good run, but the Sonics aren't that good. Reality will catch up with them soon.[/b][/quote]

Ok, whatever -- they're easily gonna win between 55 and 60 games this year. They've just beaten the Spurs and Mavs on the road in back to back games. They've got two franchise level players in Allen and Lewis, plus a lot of role players and young talent who know what their place on the team is... and a couple of their better players (Flip Murray and Potapenko) are injured right now. They play team ball like..... I dunno, Detroit last season. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

-- 2bq

[Soontir Solo]

55-60 games? Are kidding me? They are having a good run, ok. But in the long run they can't stand up to teams like San Antonio, Sacramento, Minnesota, or Dallas. Those are the powerhouses.

They are nothing like Detroit either. They don't have a defense anywhere near what Detroit did and explain how they play team ball? Allen and Lewis do most of the scoring, everybody else is just there for the ride. They won't be able to keep this pace up much longer, I promise you. Anytime can go through good runs........but in the long run they won't be one of the top 4 seeds in the West. And they sure won't win 55 games. I'd say 50 games at the most.

They don't have the low post presense to compete in the long run in the West. They need a Duncan, Garnett, Webber, or Nowitzki. And they don't have anyone like that.

[RollaFett]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan is the best athlete of all time.[/b][/quote]

Uhhh...have you ever heard of Bo Jackson? Or Jim Brown? Hell, while we're at it, Wilt excelled at so many different sports before deciding on b-ball. Jackie Robinson as well.

[The Bandit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Uhhh...have you ever heard of Bo Jackson? Or Jim Brown? Hell, while we're at it, Wilt excelled at so many different sports before deciding on b-ball. Jackie Robinson as well.[/b][/quote]

We certainly can't keep Jim Thorpe off that list.

-- 2bq

[The Bandit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>55-60 games? Are kidding me? They are having a good run, ok. But in the long run they can't stand up to teams like San Antonio, Sacramento, Minnesota, or Dallas. Those are the powerhouses. [/b][/quote]

Not kidding you. They'll win somewhere in that range - they're 17 - 3 now. If they kept winning at their current rate they'd end up about 70 - 10 -- that ain't gonna happen. 55 games is a completely realistic prediction. They've already beaten San Antonio twice, Minnesota in Minnesota, 'allas in Dallas. Have you even been watching their games?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>They are nothing like Detroit either. They don't have a defense anywhere near what Detroit did and explain how they play team ball? Allen and Lewis do most of the scoring, everybody else is just there for the ride. They won't be able to keep this pace up much longer, I promise you. Anytime can go through good runs........but in the long run they won't be one of the top 4 seeds in the West. And they sure won't win 55 games. I'd say 50 games at the most. [/b][/quote]

http://www.nba.com/sonics/stats/

In addition to scoring from Allen and Lewis, you've got Daniels off the bench for 12.6 ppg and Vlad Rad off the bench for 11.9 ppg. Plus Ridnour and Forston are both scoring around 9 ppg -- seems actually like a pretty balanced lineup if you ask me.

I never said they had the same team makeup as Detroit, just that the way they played together as a team reminded me of the Pistons last year.

You seem very adamant in your opinion on the number of games Seattle will win. Care to put a small friendly wager on it? I'd be willing to lay one Andrew Jackson down on the table -- if the Sonics win 55 of more I win, if they win 50 or less you win, in between that it's a push. I like to call it putting your money where your mouth is.

-- 2bq

[Dutch]

Well, Soontir?

He won't accept 2bq. He also argued with me earlier that Phoenix isn't any good and Nash is no better that the 5th or 6th point guard in the league.

[Dutch]

Originally posted by 2 Butterflies Quarrleing@Dec 10 2004, 05:06 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Uhhh...have you ever heard of Bo Jackson? Or Jim Brown? Hell, while we're at it, Wilt excelled at so many different sports before deciding on b-ball. Jackie Robinson as well.

We certainly can't keep Jim Thorpe off that list.

-- 2bq
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]


Yeah, but Jim Thorpe wasn't ever on SportsCenter with Stuart Scott yelling Boo-Yah when he made a play so he doesn't count.

[RollaFett]

Heh, heh...lord how i don't like Stuart Scott.

Anyway, I have really begun to ignore the NBA over the last year and a half. I'll be at home with nothing to do at all, and even when I know the Sixers are on, I have absolutely no desire to watch it. Now I know they aren't very good this season, but even when they were a 20 win team, I'd watch whenever I could. No more.

[Dutch]

That's too bad Golla. You must have Iggle fever. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

Even though they have really hit a bad patch lately and they really aren't that good, they are about 1 million times better to watch than the last two years with Coleman and Big Dog stinking up the roster.

Iguodala,Korver, and Marc Jackson have been surprises and they might have some hope for the future if they can land a decent free agent with the money they cleared from getting rid of Snow.

[Soontir Solo]

Sounds like money in the bank for me 2BQ.

[The Bandit]

Alrighty, we'll see who wins this one come April.

-- 2bq

[Dutch]

I've just become a Seattle fan

Go SONICS~!!!!

[Soontir Solo]

Because I don't think the Sonics are good enough to win 55 games Dutch?

[Dutch]

yup

I'd love to see you lose that bet.

[The Bandit]

Heh, with the Sixers being as bad as they are I gotta find a team to root for... and I'm currently living with the world's biggest Sonics fan, so I get to watch all the games whether I like it or not... might as well root for them too.

But hey, Philly's won two in a row now... granted, it was the Bulls followed by the Bucks... I didn't watch the game this afternoon, although I kind of wish I had done so now... and look at it this way, we're 8-12 and only two games out of the third seed in the east.... shouldn't be too hard to make up a couple games on the Knicks... Friday's game with them will be pretty big, especially if we can beat Denver on Tuesday.... then we got Milwaukee who we just beat, a struggling Jazz team which is minus AK47, then the depleted Paces squad... Just need to string some wins together.

And go Eagles! Gotta go watch the second half...

-- 2bq

[Soontir Solo]

Well it won't happen Dutch, I don't lose.

[The Bandit]

Heh... you might not lose, but the Lakers got KILLED by the Sonics tonight. Without Shaq Kobe is just another player who can put up huge numbers on a bad team.

And, as a Sixer fan, I'm hoping that the Hornets break the futility record set by the '72-73 team that went 9-73.. lost to the Bobcats in overtime tonight -- it honestly looked like a game between two teams both TRYING to lose.

-- 2bq

[James T. Skywalker]

How about them Kings last night, eh? Didn't play all that well, but the fourth quarter defense was very impressive, as was C-Webb's game winner.

~JTS

[Soontir Solo]

The Kings are under-rated now just because the T-Wolves and Spurs are so good. The Kings are still the third best team in the West.

[James T. Skywalker]

Probably the fourth, because they're ahead of the T-Wolves (record-wise, they obviously haven't beaten them yet; but, they've beaten the teams they're supposed to beat, which is more than the Wolves can say), but behind the Spurs, Suns and Sonics.

~JTS

[Soontir Solo]

They aren't behind the Sonics and Suns. Those 2 have better records, but it doesn't make them better. Both teams won't keep up the pace they are at right now. The Kings will end up with the third seed in the West behind Minnesota and San Antonio.

[Dutch]

Take that JamesT

Can't you see that because SA, MIN, and Sacto finished with better records than the Suns and the Sonics LAST year, that they are automatically better this year.

[James T. Skywalker]

Yeah, because last year means everything! By that right, we should just give Detroit the title again, since they won it last season!

</sarcasm>

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif j/k

I do think the Suns will remain consistent through most of the season, and I see the Sonics making the playoffs as well, but I agree that one of them won't remain in the top 3 (I'd say the Sonics, the Suns just seem a little bit better).

So I'd still say my Kings are fourth at the moment, behind (at least) the Spurs, Suns and T-Wolves.

~JTS

[Soontir Solo]

The Suns will finished 4th, the Sonics will finishe 6th possibly 5th.

I don't look at how they did last year Dutch, but when looking at those teams the Suns and especially the Sonics, don't have what it takes to be better than the Spurs, T-Wolves, or Kings.

[DarthAnakin]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Dec 16 2004, 10:50 AM
They aren't behind the Sonics and Suns. Those 2 have better records, but it doesn't make them better. Both teams won't keep up the pace they are at right now. The Kings will end up with the third seed in the West behind Minnesota and San Antonio.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


It's way to early to be making end-of-the-season predictions right now. Everyone thought that Indiana would be a power house in the east and look at them now, things can change soooo quickly just ask Ron Artest. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Soontir Solo]

The Pacers have handled themselves well though, doing alright since the Rumble at the Palace.

[DarthAnakin]

The Toronto Raptors finally did it, they traded Vince Carter to the New Jersey Nets!

[DarthSolo]

wow, didnt hear that! for who?

I gotta say, i cant beleive the nuggets drop some of the games they do. The sixers game comes to mind, grrrrr.

[DarthAnakin]

Originally posted by DarthSolo@Dec 18 2004, 01:04 AM
wow, didnt hear that! for who?
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Alonzo Mourning, Eric Williams, Aaron Williams and 2 first round picks.

[DarthSolo]

zo, eh? figured theyd get him outa there.

[DarthAnakin]

Well basically they got 3 old players and 2 future draft picks, I say good move by the Rartors, Carter was having too many problems off the court.

[DarthAnakin]

Allen Iverson puts up atleast 50 points in back to back games! Amazing, too bad the Sixers still lost to the Jazz.

[Soontir Solo]

I think the Raptors definitely got the better deal. Those 2 first round draft picks are huge.

[RollaFett]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>DarthAnakin Dec 21 2004, 12:48 AM Post #184
Allen Iverson puts up atleast 50 points in back to back games! Amazing, too bad the Sixers still lost to the Jazz.[/b][/quote]

2 years ago, there's no way I would've missed either of those games. Now? Well, I missed both.

[Soontir Solo]

Jermaine O'Neal got 10 games cut off his suspension, so he will be back to play on Saturday, and ironically that will be against the Pistons.

[RollaFett]

That's actually fair. If anything, Stephen Jackson should've gotten more games.

[Soontir Solo]

Yeah, O'Neal didn't go into the stands. He just hit the guy that came on the court.

[Soontir Solo]

Excited, I am going to the Denver and Dallas game tonight.

[Soontir Solo]

Awesome game. It was close till the very end when Nowitzski just took over the game. He ended up with 34 and just wasn't missing in the 2nd Half, had 21 in the 2nd Half. And the Nuggets didn't have K-Mart in the second half because of a strained back.

Awesome game though.

[DarthSolo]

Originally posted by GollaFett@Dec 22 2004, 10:14 PM
That's actually fair. If anything, Stephen Jackson should've gotten more games.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

i agree. Jackson, IMO, was the biggest idiot of them all that night.

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Dec 26 2004, 10:08 PM
Awesome game. It was close till the very end when Nowitzski just took over the game. He ended up with 34 and just wasn't missing in the 2nd Half, had 21 in the 2nd Half. And the Nuggets didn't have K-Mart in the second half because of a strained back.

Awesome game though.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

NICE! Except for the Nuggets losing part. I went to the Dallas/Denver game in Denver near thanksgiving twas good, but the Nuggets cleaned up, and Dirk left early for some reason.

Any news on K-Mart, how long and whatnot? Soontir, how did Carmello play? Was he taking all sorts of ill-advised ball hoggish shots like he tends to do sometimes? Meh

Well, im glad the Heat beat the Lakers yesterday, not because i like shaq, i just really despise the Lakers and always will, no matter if they suck or not!

Soontir, i suppose you like the Lakers and hate the Nuggets?

[Soontir Solo]

I don't like the Lakers and am indifferent to the Nuggets. I am a Mavericks fan though.

Carmelo didn't play (sprained ankle) and I think K-Mart will probably only be out maybe a game.

Boykins was pretty amazing to watch. And the crowd just loves him.

[DarthSolo]

Who doesnt love Boykins? He's just such a great guy on and off court. Hustles his butt off all the time, plays with heart.

[Soontir Solo]

It's because he is so short. Everyone thinks it is amazing seeing such a short person play. And even the refs favor him, not wanting to call fouls on him.

[DarthSolo]

and he hustles like a mad man. Those things might be true soontir, but the guy does have alotta heart when he plays.

[Soontir Solo]

You've got to being as short as he is, having to guard people somtimes 8 to 10 inches taller than you.

[DarthSolo]

heh, more than that sometimes! Ive seen games where he gets picked and has to switch for a set guarding the center! He still just keeps at it!

[Soontir Solo]

That happened some against Dallas when they were running the pick and roll to get Dirk open. Boykins ended up getting stuck with Dirk a few times.

[Dutch]

Seattle 23-6
Phoenix 26-4

just saying

[DarthSolo]

ACH! the nuggets have been SUCKING IT UP! ACH!

[DarthAnakin]

I like the Suns because of Steve Nash, but go Sonics!

[James T. Skywalker]

How about those Sacramento Kings! Rebounding from losses to the Heat and the Warriors, they beat the Spurs with defense and they win in Madison Square Garden for the first time in eight years! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

~JTS

[DarthSolo]

Impressive, most impressive.

[James T. Skywalker]

See, I get all happy and proud of my team, but then they go and miss twelve free throws and lose by three.

Arg!

~JTS

[Dutch]

They need to get rid of Webber. He has all the talent in the world, but he is a cancer and can't lead a team. They were by far the best team in the league last year until he came back and he destroyed their chemistry.

He's a younger Derrick Coleman.

[James T. Skywalker]

I'm an avid Webber supporter, and I don't agree with your assessment completely. Yes, he forced his role at the end of last season, but this season he's been much better, and is putting up his usual compliment of numbers that we saw from the pre-knee injury Webber. In different ways than previously (since he can't explode for the highlight dunks or grab rebounds over the top of everyones' heads), but he's getting the job done, and doing better defensively, especially on help defense, an area the Kings were lacking in.

And he's shooting over 73% from the free throw line, which is a significant improvement from last season.

~JTS

[Dutch]

I'll take your word for it, cause I haven't seen them play at all this year. Got tix for the Sixers-Kings in Philly later in Feb though. No offense, but I hope they suck that afternoon.

[The Bandit]

Do you have season tickets Dutch or did you just buy some?

I need to get some tickets for my grandfather as a belated Christmas gift... he's a big Shaq fan so I was going to troy for the game against the Heat in April... wanted to get good seats but I don't want to pay out the nose for them.

-- 2bq

[Dutch]

I got a 6 game package.

You can probably get some cheap seats up near the top. I've been sitting there for years and they're just fine.

[The Bandit]

Yeah, I had cheap seats when I saw them play the Wizards right after Thanksgiving... I'll probably try to get lower level tickets for the Heat game, though... I checked out stubhub.com and I can get decent seats for like $80 a piece it looks like...

-- 2bq

[The Bandit]

UGGHH... tonight's game was frustrating. No AI, close game down the stretch... Dutch, did you SEE that awful pass Jackson attempted to make to Korver with like 12 seconds left or whatever it was? WHY kick it out for 3 there? You're under the basket with the ball, take it up and at least try to get fouled, maybe get a 3-point play out of it, and if you only get free throws out of it you can at least keep it tight and foul on the next posession.

I didn't expect them to win, but watching them blow the game when it was that close down the stretch is frustrating.

-- 2bq

[Dutch]

Yup, saw every second of it.

How freakin hatable is Sam Cassell?

[Soontir Solo]

Well the Suns seem to be on a bit of a downward spiral

And how about those Bulls! What they are doing is incredible right now to me!

[DarthSolo]

Boykins set an all-time record for most overtime points in the Nuggets win over seatle last night i blieve!

[Soontir Solo]

He is really good.

[DarthSolo]

the guy is clutch. he only scored 18 that game, but 15 came in OT. Camby had a career high 24 boards, and then 25 pints that game i think.

[James T. Skywalker]

So who's y'alls MVP candidates through the first half of the season?

Or better yet, who's your ALL-STAR SELECTIONS? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

~JTS

[The Bandit]

Steve Nash -- he goes down and his team drops five in a row. They didn't win in his return, losing to the Spurs in overtime. He makes everyone around him better.

-- 2bq

[Dutch]

2bq,

I was just saying this same thing to a buddy on Friday night and he agreed. Nash is really tough.

How about the Sixers whizzing away another one last night?

We need to win those close ones.

[RollaFett]

I would have Nash as the MVP, but you know he won't win it. Remember the furor over Iverson winning it 4 years ago? A little guy winning it over Shaq is just too much for some to comprehend, and that's a shame.

[The Bandit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>How about the Sixers whizzing away another one last night?[/b][/quote]

It was a rough loss, but I liked a lot of what I saw in that game.

Admist the recent trade rumors (sending Dalembert to Phoenix for Joe Johnson), Sammy had a breakout game. O'Brien left him in the game when he picked up his fifth foul early in the third quarter and he started playing like a man possessed -- ended up 24 and 16 with 4 blocked shots on 84.6% shooting -- not too bad for someone who is really a second year player.

Jameer Nelson had something like seven steals -- I wouldn't mind seeing him come back and play some pro ball in Philly.

The Celtics lost too and the Knicks look like they're in a nose-dive, so I'm pretty confident in the Sixers chances of winning the Atlantic.

-- 2bq

[The Bandit]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I would have Nash as the MVP, but you know he won't win it. Remember the furor over Iverson winning it 4 years ago? A little guy winning it over Shaq is just too much for some to comprehend, and that's a shame.[/b][/quote]

The Heat were a playoff team last year sans Shaq -- and were a very different team too (with Odom, Butler and Grant -- now all on LA).

Aside from the addition of Nash, the Suns are pretty much the same team that finished 29-53 last season -- they've already got more wins than that this year.

AI deserved the 2001 MVP award -- you think that Sixers team would have made the playoffs without him? When they took game 1 from the Lakers I was convinced that they were gonna win it all...aaah, the heartbreak of being from around Philly... speaking of which, we've only got a few hours before the Eagles lose the NFC championship game again. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Besides, if AI had never won that MVP award we might have never heard him talk about practice. We talking about practice? Not the game. Not the game. Not the game. Not the game. We talking about practice? I'm the MVP and we sitting here talking about practice? Not the game that I go out and die for every night. Practice? We talking about practice?

-- 2bq

[RollaFett]

Don't misunderstand me, I absolutely think that AI deserved the MVP that season. I just remember several media types, mostly national, that couldn't get over the fact that Shaq didn't win it, and that he should be the MVP every season. Gimme a break.
As fas as the NFC championship game goes...well, I'm not afraid to say that I'm completely terrified right now.

[Soontir Solo]

Steve Nash doesn't deserve the MVP. I think you have to give it to Lebron James right now. He is leading his team to a great season right now. The only team in the East who is definitely better than them is the Heat. Lebron gets you 25 a game, and pulls down 7 boards and dishes out 7 assists a game. If not Lebron then it would have to be Kobe (if the Lakers make the playoffs) or Dirk Nowitzki.

All-Star Teams-

East:

Steve Francis
Allen Iverson
Lebron James
Jermaine O'Neal
Shaquille O'Neal

Reserves:

Zildrudus Ilgauskus (I know I had to have spelled that all wrong)
Dwayne Wade
Richard Hamilton
Gilbert Arenas
Antawan Jamison
Stephon Marbury
Ben Wallace

West:

Steve Nash
Kobe Bryant
Dirk Nowitzski
Tim Duncan
Amare Stoudamire

Reserves:

Tracy McGrady
Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber
Tony Parker
Ray Allen
Yao Ming
Manu Ginobli

[RebelRoss0587]

Why is Ben Wallace not on that All Star team? He has been the starting center for the east two years straight. He is the best defender in the NBA, and he is playing eveb better this year. I think Ben has to be on the team, and he would be starting for sure if Shaq hadn't come to the east.

[Soontir Solo]

Your right, I knew I forgot someone.

[The Bandit]

Hey Dutch and Golla... we just Chris Webber, Matt Barnes and Michael Bradley for Kenny Thomas, Brian Skinner, and Corlis Williamson.

I'm not a big fan of CWebb as a human being, and he has a tendancy to choke and get injured, but the prospect of him and AI on the court together, and defenses collapsing in on a legitimate low post threat and Kyle Korver hitting th 3 out there on the wing make me a very happy