Training To Be A Jedi Is Harsh!

[nerfer]

One thing that occured to me whilst watching Ep 2 was of course Anakin's rage once his mother was killed. This is the beginning of his fall to the darkside.

Now couldn't all this have been avoided if he had kept in contact with his mother? But he wasn't allowed to, because going by the Jedi code, he's supposed to sever contact with his family.

Also apparantly Jedi aren't allowed to love. I think its funny that for all their talk of the light side, and peace and tranquility and how feelings like anger and fear belong to the darkside. That they would not allow Jedi to be near family or experience love. Surely love is of the light side?

And who better than family to calm someone down when they are angry or confused.

I mean just think if Anakin had been allowed to maintain contact with his mother would he have been as resentful of the Obi - Wan and indeed the Jedi when his mother died?

I mean its funny that they want to turn out decent people, but they take them away from everything they know and love and then tell them they aren't allowed to see them again. I mean thats a bit harsh don't you think? Its no wonder Anakin turned dark. Mebbe if Obi - Wan had been less strict and shown Anakin more compassion. He wouldn't have disobeyed him so often.

Well I'm rambling and I don't think I'm really making the point I want to, but its a start. Whadda y'all think?

[Justin]

His mother also might not have died. He would have found out much sooner that she had been kidnapped, and could have gone to save her, possibly in time to stop her from dying. But I think he would probably still have reacted the way he did if she had died anyway.

[nerfer]

True.

The point I'm really trying to make is that I think Anakins fall to the darkside had a lot to do with how the Jedi raised him. That their techniques were flawed.

I mean its been shown in real life that if you take something away from its parents and show it no love the results can be pretty damn nasty. (An old psychology lecture I half remember).

The Jedi take a little boy. He's only ever known the life of a slave and his mother. They take him away from his parent any love he has in his life. Now from what we can see of Anakin's relationship with Obi Wan. Obi Wan seems very strict with him. Well Anakin's pretty reckless, so Obi Wan needs to be right? Well what if Anakin's reckless behaviour is the outcome of the way Obi Wan has brought him up. And how does Obi Wan raise him? Well with the methods of the Jedi.

I mean if Anakin did something reckless you can bet his mother would have handled it in a different way to Obi Wan.

I guess the real point I'm trying to make is that I find it funny the Jedi are denied things like family and love. I mean why? Why would speaking to your mother once in a while and having love in your life make you a bad Jedi?

I mean from what we can see their way of doing things isn't really working out. We can already see that the Jedi Council are arrogant and closed off. Why do I say arrogant?

Check out Windu's response in Ep1 when its suggested by Qui Gon that what he fought on Tatooine could be a sith! He is arrogant enough to suggest that that can't be true, because the council would have known!!!!!

When Obi Wan mentions Dooku, Windu stands up for him. They are unwilling to listen to the younger Jedi, even when they are providing them with proof. Because they are too arrogant to believe they are capable of errors.

Perhaps its only Windu who is like this, but I think Yoda says something to the effect that the Jedi aren't once what they once were.

Qui Gon, was not in favour with the council, because he didnt' always agree with their ways.

Hehe sorry rambling again.. can't think of anything else right now.

[Winston_Sith]

:::I guess the real point I'm trying to make is that I find it funny the Jedi are denied things like family and love. I mean why? Why would speaking to your mother once in a while and having love in your life make you a bad Jedi?

Because, it would make you a normal person, and Jedi are not supposed to be normal people.

Anakin has all these attachments from his former normal life, and it's been hell on him, hasn't it?

[Obi-Stu]

The point I'm really trying to make is that I think Anakins fall to the darkside had a lot to do with how the Jedi raised him. That their techniques were flawed.

In ANH and ROTJ Obi-Wan says as much. He blames himself as trainer for Anakins downfall.

[Darth Vegas]

Yes and no, you could blame Obi-Wan, but you should blame Qui-Gon because he's the one that wanted to skip the first part of his training with Yoda, and just put him with a master (that's what GL said on the TPM dvd).

Just as much as it might have been a flawed way of training Anakin, it was a system that had worked for endless ages, it was this system of training and and order that the Jedi had always had.

They could not make exceptions for one person.


It was Anakin's fault, he made the choice to turn, he was unwilling to let go of his past, and he did it to himself, Obi-Wan may feel guilty, but it's Anakin's fault.

That's like blaming Jesus for Lucifer's fall, it was his own fault and no one elses.

[JediBendu]

Lucifer was expelled after loosing a civil war - had he rallied more support it may have been different.

Jedi's are taken at birth - they never know their parents hence they never know the love that develops from the bonding. Anakin was too old to be taken, especially considering he actually lived with his mother, and were both slaves no less. He was already afraid to go -
'I can't..I just can't do it'
The attachment is there, all the Jedi could do was try to teach him to supress it and/or control it - they failed.
Not for want of trying though...

[Justin]

The Jedi's way of thinking is ridiculous. There's an obvious attachment between a Jedi Master and his Padawan.

[nerfer]

Just as much as it might have been a flawed way of training Anakin, it was a system that had worked for endless ages, it was this system of training and and order that the Jedi had always had.


I agree the system had worked for endless ages and maybe that was the problem. The Jedi grew complacent, instead of embracing new things they became closed off. You know, well its always worked this way, so why should we do it another way, kinda thing.

Because, it would make you a normal person, and Jedi are not supposed to be normal people.

Anakin has all these attachments from his former normal life, and it's been hell on him, hasn't it?


They don't have the same abilities as normal people no. Maybe thats where the Jedi training is flawed, because they emphasise the difference between themselves and people who don't use the force. Maybe its why more and more Jedi are becoming arrogant, because maybe they are starting to believe they are better than your average joe.

It was Anakin's fault, he made the choice to turn, he was unwilling to let go of his past, and he did it to himself, Obi-Wan may feel guilty, but it's Anakin's fault.

Ultimately yes it was Anakin's choice. I'm not even blaming Obi Wan really for the way Anakin turned out. More the whole Jedi Code. I know the books aren't cannon. But you get a sense, that Anakin always felt different. He didn't really fit in with anyone, and he had no-one he could really confide in. Yes thats his own fault because maybe he should have opened up to Obi Wan more. But the Jedi don't seem to be very nurturing.

I mean Anakin actually had a choice about whether or not he wanted to train to be a Jedi! Most of the other Jedi didn't. They were taken from their parents. What gives the council the right to take a child from its parents and never let that child know its parents, just because that child has force ability! You can damage a normal child by denying it, its parents so imagine the trauma to a child with the force!


This kinda says what I've been trying to but failing wildly.

But I hear you about how the methodology of the Jedi Order kinda contradicts the whole notion of being good guys

[Javen]

Whats odd in EP II is that during thescene where Obi- Wan and Anakin are guarding Padme.

Is that Anakin is telling Obi Wan about his dreams about his mother and Obi Wan just shrugs it off and says"Dreams will pass in time" I think that was just a bit insensitve don't you think?

[Kafer]

I'll skip the dream part, only becuase I believe Anakin wasn't forthcoming with Obi. He could have told Obi everything like he told Padme, and I believe Obi would have believed him. But, he didn't.

Perhaps we think it's cruel that the Jedi take these innocent little children away from their parents at birth (only if the parents agree) and raise them to be Jedi. We seem to think it's cruel and harsh. I don't we're seeing the whole picture. Sure these kids don't have a single mother or father, but they have hundreds if not thousands of people who love them, and care for them and nurture them.

Since they arrive in the temple, they are surrounded by a tight-knit group of people. People who look out for each other and pass along the knowledge. Imagine have the security and strength of the multi-generational "family" at your disposal 24/7. I think it would be a great way for a kid to grow up. Knowing that these parents will never abuse them or ignore them or not love them. Sounds pretty ideal to me.

[moocat]

Sure its a great way to grow up if you are being raised harshly. But for those of who have nice parents. Then they get all those feelings of love and comfort from their parents. So they don't need the Jedi to do that for them.

Why can't the Jedi be more like a school. Where they can train there, but ultimately the parents are responsible for their emotional well being.

[nerfer]

Sorry the above post was me, I didn't check if Moo was logged in or not.

[Darth Vegas]

Because, they cannot be bonded to anyone like that, there emotional relationships have to be closed off, they cannot take sides.

Let's say we have a Jedi who's parents are criminals, and the Jedi is still attached to those parents, what happens then? The Jedi would most likely defy the Jedi order to protect them wouldn't he?

The other Jedi get by just fine, they don't have emotional attachments, but Anakin is an exception.

Perhaps even though he is the Chosen One, he should not have been tained?

Well at least not by Obi-Wan at first, he should have gone through his beginning training with Yoda, which he did not.

On the TPM dvd GL commented that Qui-Gon wanted Anakin to skip that first part of training, because he felt that as an older kid, one that had an attachment to his mother. GL kind of hinted that it was not that Yoda did not want the boy to be trained, but he did not want him to skip the first part of his training, where the life of a Jedi is engraved into the padawan.

The system is not flawed, but Anakin's training was, because he totally skipped the first 16 years of training with Yoda.

[nerfer]

Because, they cannot be bonded to anyone like that, there emotional relationships have to be closed off, they cannot take sides.

LOL Thank you!!!!!!! With all this talk of how bad the Jedi are for not allowing kids to maintain relationships. I've not actually been trying to really diss their training, more really their training of Anakin. As you point out, there methods worked fine with kids taken really young, before they could bond with their parents. But again as you point out, Anakin had a bond with his mother. So when she died, a part of him, blamed the Jedi for her death, because if he had been allowed to see her. Mebbe she wouldn't have died. So the traditional methods didn't really work in training him.

Although................ Having said that. Why did Dooku turn? He was trained traditionally, yet as a Jedi Master, he was disillusioned enough with the Jedi way to become a sith. I believe that part of what he told Obi Wan was the truth. When he was trying to make Obi Wan change sides. He believed or saw, that the Jedi were stuck in their ways, arrogant, and complacent. With no room to grow.

[Darth Vegas]

Dooku left the order because he became dissenchanted with the Republic, with all of the corruption, he felt that the Jedi should no longer serve the Republic.

For some unknown reason he also knew about the Sith's return before TPM, and apparantly the Jedi Council tuned a deaf ear to it.

That is all from the new essential guide to characters

So, he felt that by going along and joining the Sith his ideal government, that was part of the Sith's plan, would be put into place.

But now I geuss he really is truly evil, and with all that arrogance, you can bet that when he said, "You must join me Obi-Wan, and together we will deystroy the Sith!" that he was planning to take over the order.

[nerfer]

Mebbe. Mebbe not. I'm not really sure what Dooku's intentions are myself.

[Tovor]

*Bump*

[goodwije]

I have to agree that the Jedi council as it existed in TPM had its faults. I think the sequences with Mace expressing unbelief about the SIth and other problems is supposed to show how the Jedi were either to complaicant or had been seriously misled. In either case, the coucil was loosing effectivness. They didnt forsee the Sith return, they didn't forsee the problems with the senate.

They had a very sepcific way of doing things, and they certainly disliked change. Allowing Anakin to train with Obi-Wan may have been a mistake, it may also have been in reaction to the fear and confusion brought about by the Sith and Qui-Gon's death.

[Vibroblade]

Very nice thread.


I agree in theory with Nerfer but I understand the comments of TK. Granted, Anakin was already attached to his mother and because of that attachment his training was tainted. Still, I understand Nerf's viewpoint. Anakin is not the only Jedi the we see in the prequels that seems to have significant flaws. Certainly his attachment is a weakness but many of the Jedi appear to have weaknesses. Particularly overconfidence. From that perspective, there appears to be something inherently wrong with the traditional system. The Jedi have become stagnant and adherent to customs and doctrines that have caused the Jedi to become inflexible and intolerant. Given Anakin's age, exceptions to the established principles should have been at least considered. In short, the Jedi share some of the blame for Anakin's fall.

All this discussion about the reasons for Anakin's turning brings to mind an interesting question. Obviously Anakin's attachments are a major weakness but one must wonder why was Luke able to be resist the darkside where Anakin could not? Granted, Luke had fewer attachments as his family was killed before his training. Still, one would expect that Luke would harbor tremendous resentment for the murder of his foster parents much as Anakin was enraged by the Tuskens misuse of his mother. Yet, Luke was able to resist. Why? Because Yoda trained him? Because his training was more individualized and "hands on"? Was there just something more to his character than Anakin's? In short, what did Luke get/have that Anakin needed?

[goodwije]

Friends. Luke had Han, Chewie, and Leia as equals to support him and help him without being in a position of authority. Also Luke didn't have a fear of being left behind or of being betrayed, although Obi-Wan died it was obvious that he remained with Luke when he needed him most.

Goal. Luke had a goal to see the empire destroyed, and freedom for himself and the galaxy. Anakin had a goal of becoming a Jedi but , as he is so strong, feels he has already surpassed the very people training him.