How Lucas Messed Up this Trilogy

[Martini]

I hope everyone can agree with me on this one, but GL sorta messed up this trilogy. I loved watching AOTC but saw TPM as a pointless movie (besides seeing Maul in action and where Ani came from).

Dont you think that George Lucas should have made Episode I start where Episode II did? cause then maybe instead of having everything jam packed in Episode III, we could have had two movies of Darth Vader.

[BL-17]

Every saga has a beginning...

Besides, we already have three movies with Vader in them and they were all great. TPM was a little dry and could have been better, but we needed to see where Anakin Skywalker came from and how he began his journey towards the Dark Side. I suppose this could have been summed up starting with AOTC, but it would also have left something to be desired. Especially for a newer generation of SW fans... but, I'm sure no one will agree with me. No other users seem to, anyway. I'd be amazed if this topic gets any more replies than it already has...

Seems awfully pessimistic, eh?

[MKT_EthanHunt]

Padme would not have been introduced as well if the whole Naboo crap wouldn't have happened.

[Senator Amory]

That's exactly what I think MKT_EthanHunt.

I think Episode I was not all that bad. Without Episode I, we would need to know what happened like,

1) How did Palpatine get elected Chancellor?

2) How did Anakin ended up with the Jedi?

3) Who in the world was Qui-Gon Jinn, and what role did he play?

4) Why didn't the Viceroy of the Trade Federation like Padme?

5) Where did Jar Jar Binks come from?

6) What does Padme mean when she says, "I wasn't the youngest Queen ever elected?" Was she a Queen? If so, queen of what?

The list like this could go on for a long, long while. So, if you get my point, you will see that if we didn't have Episode I to look back on, we would be mad a George Lucas for not giving a better back drop on these characters. Even the characters who were only in Ep. I. Plus, as I have stated before, Episode I starts the whole beginning of the start of the Empire. Palpatine needed a way to get elected as Supreme Chancellor so he could eventually turn the Republic into the Empire. And, ironically, Episode I is the film where he makes his first move into that very direction. He had the Trade Federation invade Naboo so he could persuade Padme to call for a Vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership so he could get a simpathy vote. And, vualla. He got it.

Now do you see the big picture about how Episode I ties into the rest? I hope this helps. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bigsmile.gif

[JediBendu]

One of the greatest aspects of the original SW is the fact that he didn't spend time explaining the background. *The viewer got a snapshot of the galaxy at that time. *Kind of a day in the life of a lost princess. *He didn't create a physical universe, rather, he left the fan to create it for him. *
He did it again in Phantom, and if anything he tried to explain too much in ATOC.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

:whatsthat:

I reached a point in SW fandom where I am unable to hate anything from SW. I am immune to criticisms; all I see is perfection when I watch a SW film. I really enjoyed Phantom Menace. The cinematography is beautiful and breathtaking and the special effects are incredibly well done. I really don't see that much of a problem with the plot; and Jar Jar has no effect on me either. Really, he doesn't bother me at all.

[miyah]

I agree with my Star Wars/Lord Of The Rings combination named friend here. TPM is good, and the more times I see it, the more I like it. It works well as the starter for the whole saga. The original trilogy is supposed to be more dramatic and we're supposed to be more emotionally attached to it, because it represents a much darker time for the galaxy.

I think George has a good grip on what he's doing. But we really can't fully determine if he's done a good job until we can sit and watch all 6 films consecutively to see if the story is well portrayed.

[JediBendu]

definitely
I watched Phantom again last night, the first since AOTC. George really does have a handle on where it's going.
ep 3 will fit in perfectly

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

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Thanks to miyah and bendu for agreeing with me.

I just can't wait for the day when I can just sit and watch the whole saga on DVD [Ultimate Edition would be a dream!]
I think once we can do that, everything will fit perfectly.

[JediBendu]

ahh yes but of course you realise that's it! NO MORE STAR WARS!!!
I wonder if it'll cause a major psychological schism effecting a large part of society as a whole?
no one goes to work
everyone just sits in front of their VR boxes, watching the trilogy over and over and over....

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

That is why we must SAVOR this time before Ep3. I know we're anxious for Ep3 to come out, but we should really cherish this time we have to speculate about a SW film that is YET to be released. This will never happen again.

[JediBendu]

I think you just pinched that from Star Trek: Generations! Infidel!! ;)

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

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Nope, that can't be. I've never once seen a Star Trek film or episode. I have no interest in it. So, no more talk of it!

[JediBendu]

profuse apologies

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

I have had the misfortune - that was the final line

[Leia_THX]

Originally posted by JediBendu@June 06 2002 - 23:10
ahh yes but of course you realise that's it! NO MORE STAR WARS!!!


But there COULD be an ep. VII...

A new generation of Jedi, trained by the long-since deceased Luke Sykewalker...

Forever SW!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[YODAgreatest]

I'm still not the biggest fan of TPM, but I don't think it got the prequels off to a bad start. I think GL wasted a lot of time w/ the pod race (even though the FX are super cool), making Jar Jar too much of a focus and under using Darth Maul. TPM was cool on several levels as it introduced the core characters of the entire saga. Over time, it's importance will become more evident as whole picture of the prequel trilogy unfolds.

After seeing AOTC a couple of times, I just wish that Count Dooku/ Darth Tyrannus could have been introduced some how in TPM in his current role to sort of mirror Darth Vader in the classic trilogy. That's my only beef with the new trilogy. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sneaky2.gif

[DanielSkywalker]

I don't think Mr. Lucas messed anything up. Sure, TPM wasn't the best Star Wars movie, but it was still really good. The problems I have with it are pretty much the same problems that everyone else has with it, the Gungans (mainly a certain Gungan named Jar Jar), and the pod race. But, it sets up the story very well. It introduces all the main characters, sets up Palpatine's play for power, and shows "Darth Vader's" origins. After viewing AOTC, TPM became a much better film. I think that after EPIII comes out, the whole saga will flow as one big film.

[Darth_Cyberius]

I really liked TPM, why do all the critics have to review Star Wars movies like they are movies made to win an Oscar like Titanic or Shakespere In Love? Star Wars is almost a genre by itself and not subject to the same dramatic interpretation as these other movies. TPM was great because it showed the origins of everything that led to The Empire being created and that Anakin was an innocent kid with dreams and a regular human being.

[Brian]

GL said he wanted to do television once he was finished with the SW films. Maybe a SW television series (Star Trek comes to mind)? Unlikely, but it would be cool. No more Droid and Ewok cartoons though!

[DanielSkywalker]

Very cool idea, Gates. The only way it would work for me, though is if it were done right. A cheesy Star Wars show would make me very sad. I think a Tales of the Jedi kinda' show would be super cool.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

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Lucas already commented on the possibility of SW television. He said he had some TV shows in mind, but none of them concerning SW. He said that SW will remain only as films, because if they turn into TV then "you have a Star Trek situation on your hands".

I agree with Cyberus. The critics always like to attack SW. I don't know why, they just do. You should never trust a critic on a SW film.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Nothing's wrong with Phantom Menace. I really enjoy watching it. The pod race was essential for Anakin to gain his freedom. It wasn't a pointless part of the film; it was for a reason.

And neither the Gungans nor Jar Jar annoy me. Really, they dont. Jar Jar doesn't seem that bad to me.

[DanielSkywalker]

Yeah, I know the pod race sequence was necesary. What I didn't like was the two headed announcer (he was really lame) and the fact that the whole scene lasted a little too long.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

???

Yeah I guess the two-headed announcer wasn't really needed, but he didn't really bother me, but that doesn't mean that I like him either.

I don't hate ANYTHING from SW except the new Sy Snoodles song in the Return of the Jedi--Special Edition. It really annoys me. But aside from that, everything from SW is perfect and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Obidobi]

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The podrace where there for two reasons.
1 For Ani to get his freedom.
2 To show us fans that he was the best pilot in the universe.

I agree with jedi master gandalf. Nothing wrong with TPM.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Thank you Obidobi.

[JediBendu]

SW tv?!?! imagine a new jedi every week
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the pod race was great!!! especially the dvd version with the extra lap.
GL put it in because he's a racing nut - the only reason why he went to film in the first place is because he crashed a car while racing. food for thought there.
personally I think he just allowed himself a bit of indulgence. Let's face it - he can

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Do you see how I have countered the topic of this thread?? :sly:

It has gone from complaints about the trilogy to praises of the films! I love it!

[JediBendu]

HA!
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[Swamprat_Jedi_Knight]

I absolutely love the Phantom Menace ! I don't see why other people have such a problem with it. Sure the Gungans (Jar Jar) are a little anoying, but should all the Star Wars characters be cool or likeable? NO ! If anything it adds some realism to the movie. No matter what universe you go to, you will always find someone that is anoying or that you hate. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Gungan fan, but everyone can't be perfect. I think the biggest reason people don't like the TPM, is because of the shock it created. It was so hiped up that no matter how good it was it would have fallen short of people's expectations. Look at all the new CG technology that was used in the movie, that made this new movie look very different compared to the old ones. Practically everything traditional from Star Wars was missing, Tie Fighters, the Empire, a confrontational Darth Vader (the Sith in the PM hide and are stealthy), the Rebles, X-Wings, slow(er) lightsaber combat. I mean for peet sakes ! even the sound effects were different. Blasters sounded different, ships sounded different, and not even one Stormtrooper. That is how I think the comment " It wasn't Star Wars" (refering to the PM), that I have heard several times, came to be. And I'm not saying that their weren't any original sound effects, because there were.

The PM is ausome!, and I to have also become immune to any criticism about Star Wars. As mentioned before, I find the films flawless and perfect.

The only thing I didn't like about TPM was that Darth Maul got killed. He was the MAN!! Every time I watch it I scream nooooooooooo!!!!! when Obi-Wan is about to slice him in half. The only reason I wanted him to live is to carry on the intense lightsaber fighting. I thought Episode II didn't portray the same level of fighting excellance that Episode I did. Don't get me wrong the lightsaber combat was still good and Yoda was ausome, but not to the extent of TPM.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

The Phantom Menace is really a stunning film. I love it.

But, Darth Maul is NOT "the man". He's a good adversary, but only in a fight scene. His character was very undeveloped and he really served no purpose but to fight the Jedi at the end of the film. He only had two lines in the whole film. We had no reason to hate [love] him for his villiany.

Vader is "the man".
Jango Fett is "the man".
Darth Maul.....well, that's pushing it.

[JediBendu]

Arnie only had 2 lines in Terminator, they re-incarnated him and made a sequal.
Perhaps Darth Maul will do the same - if Anakin can be resurected from a lava pit, the dark side can do anything!

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Well, Lucas already confirmed that Maul will not return. And remember, I don't think its a lava pit per se. It never said "lava", it only said "molten". I think it will take place in some factory on Coruscant. I think it won't be lava, but acid or some other substance.

[JediBendu]

been down this thread before
but it could very well be lava - ROJ had lava in the throne room! Obi and Anakin could be battling in front of Palpy, Anakin buys it, Obi grabs the lightsaber, turns to front Palpy who unleashes hell on earth. Obi bails, Palpy saves anakin.

anyway, back to thread
GL hasn't messed up anything in the holy trinity. It will all fit and all will be known come 2005

[Philby]

Eh. I dunno about Phantom Menace. My view is that while writing it or making the movie George Lucas was corrupted by the dark side of the Merchandise! Dollar signs clouded his vision as the movie was produced. Whispers of mega bucks and licensing were poured into his ears. It was only after Phantom Menace was released and critics abounded with their stories did he return from the dark side, although the influence was there with the name 'Attack Of The Clones'.
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[Martini]

Didnt GL say that the actor who played Darth Maul (Ray Parks) will return for the prequels? i know he wasnt in EPISODE II, but maybe III as someone new

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Philby,
Phantom Menace is a very very good film. Its truly entertaining and fun to watch. I love it. The critics or the press always say, "Fans disliked Phantom Menace". I think that is very wrong. It is the fans who liked the film and the general public who didn't.
I love watching Phantom Menace.

[WayoftheGungon]

I completly agree with you Jedi Master Gandalf. I have been a defender of that film from its opening day.

[JediBendu]

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ya philby - way off base there
I recommend purchasing the dvd - there's no way GL did it for the merchandising spin off.

[Philby]

Oh come on!!
I am a huge Star Wars fan! That doesn't necessarily mean I love absolutely everything to do with it no questions asked, or I think George Lucas is god and will take everything he gives out as holy bible material. I do like TPM but there are aspects I have trouble with that to me, seriously look like copping out, to please little kids. Maybe I've just grown and don't find some of it as funny or something as I would have when I was little but I can't help feel let down a bit by it. If we get a DVD player I might get it. But don't get me wrong, there are parts I love about the movie but at the same time things annoy me, and to me they are stupid things that weren't necessary.

[JediBendu]

heya Philby
How's the weather down Melb?
there is soooo much in the dvd that'll open your eyes to just how much GL loves this universe he's created. *He really isn't doing it to make money - he already has. *Everything Phantom made went into ATOC. *at the moment, GL is living and breathing star wars again.
and he's doing it here!!!! *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

and you could always get a PS2 ;)

[Philby]

hah weather?
Well its been cooling down a bit lately, gearing up for winter I guess. Maybe I'll get a PS2 after my tax return hehe. The government can support my video games addiction!
Perhaps I should clarify some things I said? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif I don't really meen that George Lucas only made it for money, I was joking around with the 'dark side of the Merchandise' thing but after watching it I can't help but feel some parts of it could have been better, and just had that feeling of 'cha ching!'. If that makes any sense style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

lol yeah hes doing it here I wonder why? Cheap aussie labour hehe. Imagine if Nike opened up a film studio in the back of the sweatshops........ :devil:

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Yes, the Phantom Menace DVD is one to remember.

"The Beginning" is the best "making of" documentary around. I love how you feel like you're there with Lucas and Co. as he makes this film. I can't wait until AOTC comes on DVD this fall!! Hopefully it will have the same documentary feature.

The DVD makes the CGI look brand new and it delivers in better quality.

[JediBendu]

careful philby - you might let the rest of the world know the secret to the source of our drinking habits ;)

The Beginning's pretty cool but I like the 12 mini-docos, much more specific.
The ATOC dvd is going to be pumped!

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

I'm sure the AOTC DVD will be great also. I wodner what Special Features they have lined up for us this time. Probably the same type of stuff--documentary, web videos, and other stuff.

[JediBendu]

I saw a doco on the making of doco :exclamation: which had the same guy who made The Beginning, already started on Ep2 and signed up for Ep3. I think they'll be even more revealing as he's got a handle on what's been done around him this time.
I'm looking forward to it cause the majority will be in MY country. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif Should be a bit weird to hear the familiar accents.

[Martini]

I got a funny feeling that the DVD wont come out for another year or so. Lucas held off for a year to release the VHS for TPM and over 2 years for the DVD version. I think it was better that way cause it got me really pumped up for the next movie. So i think it will be better if Lucas releases AOTC about 8 or 9 months before EPISODE III.

[JediBendu]

actually, I heard it was November this year - which doesn't make sense. Nov next year seems more like it.

[Martini]

I'm saying NO on this november for two reasons.

1) i dont think GL has confirmed this date
2) did you guys see how much went into just making TPM dvd??!?! it was a lot so i dont think it will take them a couple months to do this dvd

[Obidobi]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif
I hope at least it comes in vhs in November so we can see it again and again and again and again...............................

I can`t wait to put on my surround and let it fill my living room with noise.
aaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!
I think i just have to go and watch it again at the cinema. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Yes,
I heard November too. I really do hope its November.

[DanielSkywalker]

You know what really sucks? My Phantom Menace DVD doesn't work in my DVD player. There aren't any scratches or smudges on the disc, and the player is practically brand new. The movie plays fine on all my friend's DVD players, but when I try to view it on mine, it skips from scene to scene, and sometimes it will randomly put sub-titles on the screen or start playing it in French. I guess the two just aren't compatible. Has anyone else had this problem? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[Martini]

Back to how GL should have made the PT almost start here EPISODE II does with a little more to bring in the characters. Well i was thinking, what if he cant fit everything he wants into EPISODE III and its still a 3 hour movie (which it wont be)?? DO you think he could trick us all and make almost 2 more episodes. Like episode 3.1 and 3.2? Kind of like chapters to the episode.

i think its very possible cause then we can get two more 2 hour films and everything wont be rushed and we can see more Vader!

[tunafishman]

Daniel - I've had problems with my TPM DVD, but we determined it was the player and not the disc - it doesn't play any DVDs except for ones that were created when DVD first came out or those that are very simple and have no really extras. Don't ever buy an $80 DVD player, that's my suggestion to everyone in the market for one. Anyways, you might check and make sure the player is working. Otherwise, you may have just gotten a defective disc. Either way I feel sorry for you style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[DblDwn]

You have to look at TPM not as a two hour movie, but as the first two hours of a twelve hour saga. It serves to introduce characters, story, and conflict. Besides, Lucas could have made the best movie of all time for Episode I and people still would have complained because anticipation was so high after 16 years without a new Star Wars movie. Think if Francis Ford Coppola went back and made a prequel trilogy to go with the Godfather trilogy, people would hate it no matter what cause it wouldn't compare, in the opinions of the viewers, to the original.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Man, you really like the Godfather, huh?

[DanielSkywalker]

Thanx, tunafishman. Yeah, the player works fine with all my other DVD's it's just The Phantom Menace that it goofs up on. I don't get it, the player is relatively new and it wasn't cheap. oh well, I guess I'm just gonna' have to watch it at one of my friends' houses.

[darthwicker]

The only thing George Lucas has messed up is my head.
After seeing AOTC a handful of times, I can't think straight.
I can't stop watching Ep I,IV,V,VI. I'm in love with the Star Wars saga than ever.
I'm sick of reading posts about how inconsistent the SW universe has become, because I truly believe it hasn't.
These people as far as I'm concerned need to feel the films more and learn how to embrace every aspect of the story as a whole. This is not aimed at all at anyone who has posted earlier in this thread. On the contrary, I'm delighted to see some praise for The Phantom Menace, as I myself thought it was fantastic. The dvd is worth every penny and then some.
It's excellent.
I love the relationship between Anankin and his Mother.
Even though they are slaves, I think their love for each other is what keeps their spirits so positive.
Shmi is protective but she is not naive. She knows Anakin is extremely talented but she also knows when it's time for her young son to go to bed. They have respect for each other which I like.
I think the tone of the film is amazing when Anakin is leaving with Qui-Gon and he is saying goodbye to his mother.
I think it's very emotional as he walks away from her and the force theme kicks in but ends with a more spacious chord and so much longing.
Is Anakin the only human who can podrace? I just think it's interesting that Luke and Leia could handle the speeder bikes on endor with such ease. Obviously Luke has been a decent pilot since tatooine but we've never really seen much of Leia's piloting skills.
Anyway, sorry for getting of the topic a bit.
What was the question? Oh yeah.
'How Lucas messed up this trilogy'
The answer is simple........he didn't.

[Martini]

Alright Alright, fine he didnt mess up the 6 episode trilogy. but you know whats wrong with the 2 new films of PT, is that it has a different feel then the OT. Not cause its during a different time period or that CGI graphics change that. Think about it, OT appealed to everyone. TPM appealed mostly to a younger audience and AOTC appealed to die-hard star wars fans (like myself). Im just hoping that EPISODE III will appeal to everyone again. Although, i dont think it will. I think it will be too dark and evil for most viewers.

[YODAgreatest]

DblDwn makes a good point, comparing The Godfather to SW. As good as TPM is and as great as AOTC is, a lot of the general public doesn't appreciate what GL is doing with the PT. Even though Godfather II is so close to being as a good as the original very few people like it as much. As sagas go, SW is far superior to the GF series. The worst SW movie (be it TPM or ROTJ) is still better than Godfather III. Sure there's a different feel to the PT, but different doesn't have to be bad.

[Martini]

Heres another reason i think GL somewhat messed up this trilogy.........

cuase is it me, or does the story seem to be more about Obi-Wan in his earlier days rather then anakin?
but then i guess it sorta of is 1/2 and 1/2 between him and anakin being shown in their earlier days.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by YODAgreatest@June 12 2002 - 19:48
As sagas go, SW is far superior to the GF series. *The worst SW movie (be it TPM or ROTJ) is still better than Godfather III. *
I'm not sure If I agree. I love Star Wars, but I'm a huge fan of the GF trilogy as well. Parts I and II were brilliant, and I would call them superior movies to ANH and ESB. GFIII has always been criticized, but it's hardly as bad most make it out to be. It might not match the first two, but it is a strong movie.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Martini@June 30 2002 - 17:28
cuase is it me, or does the story seem to be more about Obi-Wan in his earlier days rather then anakin?
but then i guess it sorta of is 1/2 and 1/2 between him and anakin being shown in their earlier days.
Well, I don't think SW = Anakin. There's a lot going on in this trilogy with the rise of the Empire, so it wouldn't do justice to the story to be focussing only on Anakin.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Martini@June 11 2002 - 10:14
Well i was thinking, what if he cant fit everything he wants into EPISODE III and its still a 3 hour movie (which it wont be)?? DO you think he could trick us all and make almost 2 more episodes. Like episode 3.1 and 3.2? *Kind of like chapters to the episode. *
I've heard people suggest that, but I don't understand why. Is there really that much more to be seen? Not from my perspective. Episode III will take place a couple years after AOTC, right? So, as epIII begins, the war should have just ended or at least be almost over, with the Republic winning. Palpatine's "approval rating" should be high and he'll undoubtedly turn the people against the Jedi, citing their inability to make an impact (compared to the clones), and the fact that the Separatist leader was a Jedi. It wouldn't take much time to establish that and the last hour could be devoted to the destruction of the Jedi and Sidious securing his power.

The first hour would depict Anakin's turn. We already know he's married, breaking one of the Order's rules, and that he's committed an atrocity on Tattooine. One or both of these will likely come up, putting Anakin and Obi-wan at odds. Again, it won't take much time to establish that. At about the midpoint of the movie, Anakin and Kenobi go at it, resulting in Anakin's injuries and him being fully driven toward the Dark Side. By the end, he's fully behind Sidious and against the Empire.

The birth of the twins and their separation needn't take much screen time either.

If epIII is about the same length as AOTC, I see no reason why Lucas should be pressed for time. He won't need nearly as much talking to dominate the first half, because the groundworks been laid. And the Clone War has already started. All we need to see is the fallout and how Palpatine uses that to order the elimination of the Jedi.

[JonathanLB]

I really have no idea how anyone could say anything negative about the Podrace. If you think "most Star Wars fans" had a problem with it, you are quite mistaken. Most Star Wars fans, probably 99% of them, absolutely love the Podrace, even if they don't like TPM that much. Those are like the two infallible parts of TPM: podrace and final saber duel.

Personally, I love TPM. I love every Star Wars movie and I have studied the movies extensively, but that doesn't mean I need to mindlessly worship ESB. I prefer TPM, personally. It's my favorite Star Wars movie besides AOTC. I think the two prequels so far are absolutely excellent and the five Star Wars films are THE five greatest movies ever.

And hey, do not diss ALL critics -- I am a critic myself, yet I don't share the views of the older, more negative critics who think their views are the only ones that count and dismiss the Star Wars movies as "simple fun" because they are too stupid or too ignorant to understand them properly.

I have seen 106 total showings of movies this year -- everything except: Birthday Girl, Slackers, Kung Pow: Enter the Fist, Like Mike (I will see it), Powerpuff Girls, and Juwanna Mann (I don't know... this may be the first movie I'll miss since January because I totalled my car and haven't been able to get to it and now it's almost gone -- one showing per day at ONE theater in the entire city!!!). I am definitely a film buff, but I have every reason to say that AOTC is absolutely the best movie of the year. Well it is my new favorite of all time, but of the year? Hehe, duh...

I wish the podrace were longer!!! How could anyone say it was too long? Jesus, I was hoping for it to last like two hours, hehe, that'd be exhilirating. I think the Podrace is the best sequence in ANY Star Wars film, including AOTC, which I like slightly more. The extended second lap of the Podrace on DVD makes it just about the right length, actually, but before that I always wished for more. To give you an idea, I saw TPM 50 times in theaters, more than almost anyone (and I won the viewing count on my forum among 100-odd people), but I STILL loved seeing the Podrace each viewing. I never could get enough of it. Man, I love that sequence. It's the greatest in any movie ever made. Simply exhilirating.

Now the idea, LOL, Godfather I and II better than any Star Wars movie, that is frickin' HILARIOUS. I hope I never meet a supposed Star Wars fan who says that or I think the conversation will end REAL fast. Godfather is a great movie, but even Goodfellas is better. I far prefer Goodfellas or Casino to Godfather, which is simply too slow moving to be one of the greatest. Four stars? Absolutely, but Spider-Man is a better movie than the Godfather at least as far as enjoyment is concerned. Obviously The Godfather is classic and engaging and intelligent and blah blah blah, but if I want to have fun I'm seeing Spider-Man, not The Godfather. If I want a great drama, I'm going to watch Braveheart of Gladiator, or if I want to dig into the classics, Ben-Hur or The French Connection, not The Godfather. It's great, really a great movie, but still quite overrated if anyone is going to suggest it's one of the best movies ever, lol. Much like Traffic. Yes, I gave the movie 3.5 stars, it is very good. I thought it was definitely one of the best 20 movies of the year, but the best?! HECK NO. The washed out, crappy film quality does not make it "GREAT," it makes it inferior to every other movie that has better cinematography, i.e. almost every movie made that year.

Anyway, I am not going to call an older movie better just because it's old. The Godfather gets no points for being made in the early 1970's. I still think The Count of Monte Cristo is a better made movie. Better dialogue, better plot, better pacing, acting is roughly equal, the film is more enjoyable. Of course, it is blasphemy to suggest that anything new could be as good as The Godfather.

Sorry, but nothing like The Godfather or Gone With the Wind or whatever else can compete with AOTC. Visually speaking, and movies are a visual medium, AOTC blows everything away. In terms of plot, no story in movie history is as epic as Star Wars. First, Star Trek with 9 movies is not a continuing series. It's a bunch of separate, unrelated stories. Bond is the same at 19 movies. Star Wars is not. No plot in film history has compared with Star Wars because what Lucas is doing has never been done before. Creating a six-part saga that forms a single, long story is totally unique. It's the most epic story ever told through film, and IMO the best story ever told in general, based on so many great stories from the past.

I agree with the Gandalf/Yoda dude, hehe. He knows what he is talking about as far as Star Wars.

The "fans" who come on SW forums and say they are huge fans but don't like TPM, AOTC, or ROTJ just disgust me. A fan loves all five movies and appreciates them because he is smart enough to comprehend the genius of Lucas's storytelling. A poser is someone who claims to be a fan while not even liking the entire saga. If you don't like TPM, even, you are not a Star Wars fan in the whole sense of the word. You are a fan of the other four movies, but a STAR WARS fan loves STAR WARS, the story. It is ONE story told over six movies. You cannot pick and choose chapters to read in a book and say you don't like the rest, otherwise you're not a fan of the book. If I told you I liked so-and-so book, but I actually didn't like chapters 3, 5, 9, 10, 12, and 15, then in reality I didn't much like the book either. I could have enjoyed it overall, but I'm obviously not a real fan of the book because I disliked many of the chapters in it. If you don't like one of the Star Wars movies, you don't like the Star Wars story as it was meant to be told.

Lucas has every possible resource at his disposal. Money, power, time, any type of effect he wants, and he is telling EACH episode EXACTLY as it should be told. It's his story and if you don't like it, then you don't have to watch it, but you can't call yourself a fan if you're not a fan of his work. Six movies. One story. Take it or leave it, there is no in-between for a real fan. Anyway, I suppose people who are not real fans cannot do anything about it. I don't make myself like AOTC, TPM, ROTJ, or ANH, or ESB. I loved every one of them because they are excellent movies. I do not see how any Star Wars fan could not love them and then still have the audacity to say they are huge fans. It's absurd.

So far, I've seen AOTC 30 times, and I cannot wait to get in my next 30. The movie rocks style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

As far as covering my back, I'd like to say if you don't like AOTC, that's your right. You don't have to like it. If you don't like TPM, that's also your right. Everyone has the freedom of opinion. I also have the freedom to think that if you don't like a Star Wars movie, you obviously did not understand it. I also have the freedom to think that if you don't like a SW movie, you are not a real fan of this story. You may still be a casual Star Wars fan, and there is nothing wrong with this (my friends are all casual SW fans, so why would I care?), but it's just the people who try to shove it down the REAL fans' throats: "Gee, these movies sucked, if you liked them you are blinded by your faith blah blah blah." No, you are blinded by your ignorance. A true Star Wars fan should love AOTC and TPM because these movies are massively improving the original Star Wars trilogy and forming this wonderful story that us fans know and love. Not to mention they are great movies in and of themselves, even if there was no OT. I'd still love this galaxy that is created in AOTC and TPM, regardless of the OT. Each SW movie, though, only makes the others even better. ANH is simply not the same quality without TPM, AOTC, ESB, and ROTJ. It is a much more shallow film in the absence of the other parts of the story. Is it still enjoyable? Obviously, that's why it did so well before the other parts were even here, but it is a much less complicated story without realizing that Vader is not just this evil guy who wears a black suit, but a real person who suffered a tragic fall from grace. Then, not only that, but he experiences the ultimate redemption and return to good at the end of the story. In ANH, he is yet another one-dimensional villain. It's only through the other movies that he is a truly interesting character. In ANH he flat out is boring. Then you got this vague reference to the Clone Wars and you have no idea WTF that is, nor do you have any idea what they are talking about with disbanding some senate. A Death Star blows up, the bad guys are still all alive, the important ones, and the movie ends. It just advances part of a story. I'd no more say that one chapter in any book is able to stand alone perfectly than I'd say ANH or any other SW film can stand aside from its sequels and prequels effectively.

Even now, the story is lacking without Episode III. Then, it'll be complete, and only then can it be judged in full. Until then, criticisms are just premature really.

[Darth Badly]

JonathanLB QUOTE: And hey, do not diss ALL critics -- I am a critic myself, yet I don't share the views of the older, more negative critics who think their views are the only ones that count and dismiss the Star Wars movies as "simple fun" because they are too stupid or too ignorant to understand them properly. END QUOTE

I don't know anyone (apart from you) from my real world life who didn't think TPM sucked big big time. Over at the Attack of the Clowns thread we've also got 17 ppages of people (some supporting it) who didn't much like it either. I don't think it's fair, sensible, or frankly polite to lable us all "stupid" or "ignorant".

I certainly wouldn't say that about you, although in my own head, I have a hard time trying to understand how anyone could enjoy such purile rubbish, BUT if you can then hooray for you. But I can disagree about the value of a work of art (all art being entirely subjective) without being either stupid or ignorant. :)


PS And to the rest of you whose TPM DVD are rejected by your DVD players, maybe the players are trying to tell you something. :)

I love you all.

[haYDen CHriSteNSEn LoVEr]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Gandalf@June 06 2002 - 22:17
:whatsthat:

I reached a point in SW fandom where I am unable to hate anything from SW. I am immune to criticisms; all I see is perfection when I watch a SW film. I really enjoyed Phantom Menace. The cinematography is beautiful and breathtaking and the special effects are incredibly well done. I really don't see that much of a problem with the plot; and Jar Jar has no effect on me either. Really, he doesn't bother me at all.
me 2 jedi master, i dont care what any one says, i reckon ep.1 and 2 are the best ones!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[JediBendu]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif :exclamation:

[Tovor]

Think if Francis Ford Coppola went back and made a prequel trilogy to go with the Godfather trilogy, people would hate it no matter what cause it wouldn't compare, in the opinions of the viewers, to the original.

Dbldwn, although not a trilogy, he did make a "prequel" to the Godfather. The first 30-45 minutes of Godfather II was adapted from a flashback chapter in the first Godfather novel in which Vito Andolini is shown as a child in Sicily, how and why he came to America, and how he started the Corleone family.

[wook]

> I really have no idea how anyone could say anything
> negative about the Podrace.

Didn't this give you any sense of deja vu, i.e., didn't I just see more or less the same thing in ROTJ with the speeder bikes? Personally I think that if a non-SW film did something like the pod race, folks would accuse it of ripping off the speeder bike chase -- actually I think it is fair to say that GL ripped himself off with this one.

The other issue I have with it, in addition to it being a completely unnecessary sidetrack/distraction from the story, is that it is so pathetically predictable (Ani wins -- gosh, gee, wow, I never expected *that* to happen!) as to be insulting. I can almost picture GL in a cheerleader's outfit, standing off to the side of the theater waving his pom-poms: "C'mon everyone, let's cheer for Ani! Go Ani, go! He's our man! If he can't beat Sebulba, no one can! Gosh, wow, gee -- excitement for you -- excitement for me!"

[wook]

> actually I think it is fair to say that GL ripped himself
> off with this one.

BTW isn't there some kind of similar chase in AOTC? That would make it three flicks in a row.

[Darth Badly]

Wook - there's a silly flying car chase at the start of AOTC which rips off both the speeder bike chase and the film 5th Element. My main problem with the car chase through is that it's too silly to be believed - especially when Anaken does that jump on to just the right car.

[Bandersnatch]

> actually I think it is fair to say that GL ripped himself
> off with this one.

BTW isn't there some kind of similar chase in AOTC? That would make it three flicks in a row.

I might help if you listen to the commentary track on the TPM DVD. Oh I forgot, Lucas is a lying sack of poodoo and the anti-christ. You won't hear what he has to say about repitition anyway.

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by wook@July 08 2002 - 11:31
actually I think it is fair to say that GL ripped himself off with this one.
How can someone rip himself off? What would the legal ramifications be? Could he sue himself? And where would all the money go?

I can almost picture GL in a cheerleader's outfit, standing off to the side of the theater waving his pom-poms: *"C'mon everyone, let's cheer for Ani! *Go Ani, go! *He's our man! *If he can't beat Sebulba, no one can! *Gosh, wow, gee -- excitement for you -- excitement for me!"

Strange, that I never had such a visualization... stranger, still that you did. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[wook]

> Strange, that I never had such a visualization...
> stranger, still that you did.

It wasn't a pretty sight, either. Plus now I am afraid of the dark.... :^)

[wook]

> I might help if you listen to the commentary track on the
> TPM DVD.

Did you mean "It might help...", or are you offering me assistance on the condition that I listen to the TPM DVD? :^)

I would love to hear GL's rationalizations, but this is starting to sound like the kind of thing where you have to look at all sorts of ancilliary information before the films start making sense.


> Oh I forgot, Lucas is a lying sack of poodoo and the
> anti-christ. You won't hear what he has to say about
> repitition anyway.

There's no question in my mind that he puts his spin on everything that he says; e.g., "The gospel according to George". I don't see him as a very honest or sincere storyteller.

[NelsonCoressel]

Bander makes a good point. And of course TPM is not the only movie around with a filmmaker commentary explaining certain aspect of the movie.

As a Lucas hater, you'd be suprised at how humble and laid back the guy is on the behind the scenes documentary (a friend of mine who despises TPM loved the documentary) and how informative the commentary during the movie is.

He does talk about how his "repetitions" are his attempt (whether it works or not) at trying to present a sort of "ballad" or myth with recurring motifs.

Even if you think he's lying out his ass, it's still very interesting to listen to. You should at least give the doc material on the DVD a chance before flushing every word the guy says.

[wook]

Actually it was Bandersnatch who used the word "liar", not me. *It does seem to me tho that there is more going on in his head then he lets on (esp. in interviews that can be conveniently scripted & edited).
*Also I wouldn't call myself a 'Lucas r' either, altho I do think his recent work is terrible, and I haven't really held back with my criticism in this area. I still give the man a helluva lot of credit for what he did in 1977 & 1980, but I guess that's what makes the current crop of films so frustrating and hard to accept. *It's almost like he met with the folks from Kenner in 1980 (after ESB) and they told him something like, "hey George, if you keep making your films as dark & dramatic as ESB, you're going to lose most of your audience who are kids anyway and want to buy toys from us. *You ought to put more hooks into the next film for them, if you want to keep making enough money to finanace your films." *Perhaps he bought into that because he realized
it was * * * * him to try to make
the first two films good enough (from a critical perspective) to hit the box office returns that he needed. *It sure seems a heckuva lot easier to get a guaranteed audience by pandering to the kids instead. *I suppose I am way off base here but I don't know how else to explain the sudden shift from "I am your father" to "we are now part of the tribe." *Any other explainations?

I will check out the DVD tho when I get the chance.

[wook]

Also WRT "recurring motifs", doesn't it seem a little hokey to say, "OK, (nearly) every film is going to have a speeder/chase sequence, a lightsabre duel, and we use a bunch of fighter ships to blow up the bad guy's ship/space station at the end?" That seems much more like "formula" than a use of motif. Most of the better filmmakers are usually more subtle; for example, the way the director used the color red in "The Sixth Sense".

[Tovor]

My main problem with the car chase through is that it's too silly to be believed - especially when Anaken does that jump on to just the right car.


At the risk of being accused of using hopeful logic to justify the prequels, I want to say that although I found this jumping out of the speeder scene a bit over the top and slightly illogical, that I get the sense that Anakin was using the Force (like Luke firing the proton torperdoes without the firing controls) to locate the distant speeder and calculate it's distance and speed to jump out at the right moment. I'm not saying that I would written it that way, but that's what I think the story was indicating, that he used his control of the Force to jump at the right moment.

[wook]

What's with this board? *My lines above should read "Lucas_hater" and "he_realized_that_it_was_killing_him_to_try_to_make _the_first_films_good"

I tried re-editing the post but I can't seem to fix it; also it came through broken again when I didn't use the underscores. *Wierd --- maybe it's my Netscape that's buggy? Oh, well.....

[JediBendu]

More than likely it's netscape
Tovor
good pick up - I actually think jumping out of a speeder is slightly more logical than bullseyeing a hole in the ground at 300kph style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif
These are Jedi, GL is making a point on just how powerful they really are, and yet they're also fundamentally flawed in allowing the rise of the empire.

[Bandersnatch]

Regarding Anakin jumping out of his speeder, falling hundreds of feet and grabbing Zam's speeder: This wild moment in AOTC was perfectly in keeping with the Lucas action style. It's no different than any of the stuff in Indiana Jones, only is just a bit more fantastical (as SW is in the first place). Also, the first thing I thought of during that scene was how reckless Anakin is. His recklessness is probably a major factor in his downfall. He does ultimately get seriously wounded, right? This is the dude who becomes Darth Vader.

[Bandersnatch]

I will check out the DVD tho when I get the chance.

That's cool. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif
Like Nelson's experience, I also showed my copy to a TPM-hater friend and we watched the whole thing with the commentary track on, then watched the 60-min doc called "The Beginning." *This friend of mine may not like TPM any better, but at least he sees a little more of what went into the movie and why it may not have worked for him. And he has a clearer view of what Lucas was going for.

Very interesting stuff, and not the usual kind of scripted "infomercial" featurette crap you see on so many DVDs now.

[WhatMeWookie]

Originally posted by Tovor@July 08 2002 - 23:18
At the risk of being accused of using hopeful logic to justify the prequels, I want to say that although I found this jumping out of the speeder scene a bit over the top and slightly illogical, that I get the sense that Anakin was using the Force (like Luke firing the proton torperdoes without the firing controls) to locate the distant speeder and calculate it's distance and speed to jump out at the right moment. *I'm not saying that I would written it that way, but that's what I think the story was indicating, that he used his control of the Force to jump at the right moment.
The speeder jump sequence is a serious failing in AOTC. Understood that all action films stretch the laws of physics and human capability - but the art is to make the unbelievable acceptable to the audience and to make them identify with the protagonist and therefore have the sensation that they too could have achieved the task in hand if faced with the same circumstances.

Calling on the Force represenst the enhancement of one's powers at a time of distress. AOTC takes a different view and makes the use of the Force no different than Popeye eating Spinach when he needs it. But Popeye is a lot more of a genuine character and credible than Anakin.

The Death Star trench at the end of ANH makes total sense. Sure if you sit with a slide rule and calculate the physics behind making the shot it's pretty amazing - but at the edge of human capability you have a fixed target to aim for that is not unpredicatable in it's positioning. It may be a long shot... but we believe it's possible because of the strength of the film-making and our belief that the Force actually exists while we watch the movie. The skill stills seems human-based and no-one I know came out of the film saying....yeah hyper-space and jawa's I belieive in but there's no way he'd make that shot.

In contrast, flying through the air unaided and falling hundreds of feet where the impact of the car below would cause some serious damage if not death...is not credible. Predicting the exact location of a car flying in the air with a human(-ish) driver and other on-coming traffic and obstacles to pass is a just a death wish. Just too many variables. I never believed in this for a moment and this is probably the very point when my rift from the Anakin character starts in AOTC. I don't identify with him. The Force doesn't enhance human based skills, it turns you into Superman. This just doesn't work and is indicative of the poor film-making skills and desperation behind these films.

Even the Force as a central idea has been moved out of the box. As opposed to bringing on the incredible (we believe in) it now achieves the impossible (and we don't).

[Bandersnatch]

I didn't know the Force was in a box in the first place.

Besides, Obi-Wan says "I hate it when he does that" after Anakin jumps. He realizes that the dude is flirting with disaster. Anakin wants to be the best Jedi ever. He's cocky and does crazy and impossible things. *You do know how he eventually turns out, don't you?

And... ALL of Star Wars is impossible!

[WhatMeWookie]

Originally posted by Bandersnatch@July 09 2002 - 09:35
And... ALL of Star Wars is impossible!
But thats' just it. For those two golden hours in the theater, I want to think that it is all possible. I want to feel my imagination stretched to the limit and still think everything I've been watching could happen. It's called suspending disbelief.

In the OT, I believed that Luke could raise the sunken X-Wing from the swamps of Dagobah, I believed he could make that shot at the end of ANH. I believed you could destroy the Death Star with a blob of red paint on celluloid. Heck I walked out of the theater thinking I could do all that too, so why not Luke.

I believed in Chewie being real - not a 7 foot hospital attendant from New Cross - I believed Dave Prowse to be an actor of Shakespearean merit.. I believed that Yoda didn't have Frank Oz's hand up his toochus. I believed in all these things.

But with the PT, I only believe in the box office takings.

And to answer your final question. I think - if I'm not mistaken - that Anakin turns vewy, vewy bad and becomes a wotten wascal.... But I could be wrong on that. All will become clear in Ep. III

[Bandersnatch]

I believed that Yoda didn't have Frank Oz's hand up his toochus. I believed in all these things.


I didn't.

I also didn't believe or understand how Luke could yank his lightsaber out of the snow without touching it. But in suspending my disbelief, I did go along with the concept.

[NelsonCoressel]

I didn't.


Same here. That's why I just can't see these new films as having anything wrong with them that isn't already wrong with the earlier productions. They are a part of the same series, and they are keeping with the same visual, musical, comic and dramatic language.

[Martini]

I had to bring this thread back cause i was thinking last night how this PT could have been way better....

why didnt GL just write all 3 of these movies at once rather then 3 years before he releases the film? wouldnt it have been more organized and complete this way. seems some things are rushed or made up as he goes along. Plus this way, he might have been able to release them every 2 years but he wants it to be like the OT where its every 3 years. whatever. but also GL has too much of an ego cuase im sure he wouldnt want one of his precious stories leaking out to the public long before its released. whatever, dork. but also, he wasnt in any rush to make the PT. he could have spent 2 years writing and then start directing. so instead of beginning TPM in 96 or 97 or whenever, he could have started it in 99 and release it in 2001. whatever, i still feel like some of this PT is made up and poorly done. but i still like it cause its SW

[Darth Vegas]

Because ILM was way to busy to do such a thing, and because he hadn't even written the other films yet when he made TPM, and because in eahc film the characters are older, a new actor was needed to play Anakin.

He actually was going to try and do AOTC and episode 3 together, but ILM shut him down, they have their hands in so many movies, it would have been impossible to do such a thing.

Also Star Wars is a lot more involved to make then most movies, it takes 3 years to make one.



i still feel like some of this PT is made up and poorly done. but i still like it cause its SW

Martini, I was under the impression that all of Star Wars was made up.
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

[Jedi D'oh]

What, you didn't know? The first three were a documentary. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Martini]

well im not talking about filming them all at once, im just talking about him writing all at once. he wasnt rushed into doing this

and i know its made up, dummy. but what i meant is some of it seems like he is shooting at the hip

[Martini]

dont get your panties in a bunch, bond. it wasnt anything bad that i said. dont be so offensive dude

and no i didnt read the script cause i got better things to do with my time. but my friend did and he told me about it. but read what im saying, when GL wrote TPM, why didnt he also write EP2 and EP3? all that would have done is pushed back all the movies one year. so what. we would have had them in 2000, 2003, and 2006. i can live with that. it just would have had more organization in the PT.

[Martini]

i dont got homework. things better to do....try partying, video games, sports, watching football, drinking and doing my girlfriend. thats what i got better to do.

and how am i lacking info? there isnt any. its just an opinion. god your so weird. unloosen those panties of yours!! their riding too high on you man.

and writing all 3 at once would not have distracted him from the task at hand. no way. he would have been better organized on these movies. and he could have had the crap storylines and dialogue fixed without rushing it into filming

[Mothman]

This bickering is pointless!

[FerrisWiel]

Suspension of disbelief in several minor, more trivial matters - such as Luke, a novice Force user, calling his lightsabre to himself and even Yoda, a master user, lifting an X-Wing from the bog is vastly different from out-and-out illogical extreme of falling 30 stories and landing on a moving target. Yoda and Luke in those scenarios were straining their abilities while Anakin and Obi-Wan took their activities in stride.

I don't care how many "midichlorians" a guy has, making it so Jedi can do damn-near anything is just bad writing.

Jedi 1:"Well, we've got this problem that we can't solve through logic, ingenuity or talent, what should we do?"
Jedi 2:*flicking on lightsabre*"Let's use the force!"

This supports my claim that Han Solo was a bigger badass than Obi-Wan, Anakin/Vader and Yoda combined. He had balls enough to fire his blaster at a Sith Lord and in the Radio Drama was ready to fight him to the death with his bare hands if it hadn't put Leia and Chewie in danger.

--Ferris Wiel
"As you wish."
-Boba Fett

[FerrisWiel]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Oct 31 2002, 11:17 AM
Doing so would have had no point, writing the other episodes at that point would have been distracting from the task at hand.
The "task at hand" being what? To write bad dialogue, boring plots and explain away all problems by using "The Force?"

"Your damned intolerance is infuriating."
-Tracy Samantha Lord, Philadelphia Story

[Martini]

thank you! he didnt have to rush these movies. Lucas could have waited another 16 years for this trilogy. he didnt have anyone pushing him into it. but now that he has started, he has the entire world pushing him into finishing the trilogy, hence is has to be rushed. but it wouldnt have it he wrote these 3 films a while ago

[Martini]

Posted on Oct 31 2002, 11:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This bickering is pointless!

its never pointless!!

[StarWarsFan1]

Originally posted by Martini@Jun 6 2002, 11:48 AM
I hope everyone can agree with me on this one, but GL sorta messed up this trilogy. *I loved watching AOTC but saw TPM as a pointless movie (besides seeing Maul in action and where Ani came from).

Dont you think that George Lucas should have made Episode I start where Episode II did? *cause then maybe instead of having everything jam packed in Episode III, we could have had two movies of Darth Vader.
Yes i agree to extent but may be instead all the movies could be 45 min longer that should help a lot?

[Jedi D'oh]

But Vader has 3 whole movies with him in it. This is about HOW anakin became vader, so the screentime should go to anakin.

[Martini]

true, but you need a tie-in to the other trilogy. thats where you need about 20-30 mins of vader in EP3. GL better do that. cause that really isnt that much time. only 20 mins out of about 400 mins total for this trilogy. the tie-in is what will make the saga truely great

[Darth Vegas]

All we need to see is Anakin become Vader, which will most likely happen about 25 minutes before the end of the film, and then at the end of the film he get's the suit.

There is no need to see the fully suited Vader very much at all, just to him in the Jedi Purge, and then dueling his master, getting seriously injured, and getting the suit.

This is the story of how Anakin, not what he had become, but how he became Darth Vader.

Vader's story is the OT, this one is about how we get to Vader. What we need to see is Anakin, and him becoming Vader, we don't need alot of the fully suited Vader.

Episode 3 will directly tie in with ANH, in that we see the Emporer rise to power, we see the Jedi Order completely obliterated, and we see the transformation from Anakin to Vader, and eventually by the end of the movie, we see him abandon his humanity and don the famous mask and armor. Don't forget that we will see the birth of the twins, and exactly how they got where they are in ANH.

That's how it will tie in to the OT. Not by showing us Vader Vader Vader, but by answering all the myserious layed down in the OT.

[Martini]

yeaaaaaaaaaaa, but vader vader vader is the best way GL can win over the audience. its what we wanna see

[Jedi D'oh]

Excellent point, I concur completely Bond.

[Martini]

yea he makes a good point. but everyone else is gonna have to see the suited vader or else there will be a missing piece in the saga. i wanna see Obi-Wan and Yoda see the suited Vader. they dont have to fight him or anything, but just know who the new guy is. and dont say the use the force cause they cant even see that Palpy is Sidious. and the suited Vader isnt even gonna mention the name Anakin to them or anyone


quit saying "dons" its sooo gay. your just trying to make yourself sound smart. i hate people like that

[FerrisWiel]

Hell, I thought what the audience wanted to see was CGI Muppets bouncing around with goddamm lightsabres.

--Ferris Wiel
"It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force...but by our skills with a lightsaber. "
-Dooku, AOTC

"Who writes this crap?"
-Wiel, FW

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Martini@Oct 31 2002, 11:33 AM
yeaaaaaaaaaaa, but vader vader vader is the best way GL can win over the audience. its what we wanna see
No it's what you want to see.

I have no desire to see the same old Vader on screen very much again.

I can gauruntee you that we will see plenty of Vader bfore he get's the suit, and the film will defineately have a nice peice of Vader being rebuilt, that is a must.

What we wanna see is what has to happen in order to make the saga work.

Some of us have been waiting a very long time to finally see the birth of Darth Vader, and that is what is show cased of Vader in Episode 3, it would really ruin the dramatic effect of the duel between Vader and Obi-Wan, and the visage of the injured Vader being rebuilt, to have more of him in action at the end of the movie.

[Jedi D'oh]

quit saying "dons" its sooo gay. your just trying to make yourself sound smart. i hate people like that


^What are you talking about?

[Martini]

not you.........sigh........other people who've said it. wake up

[Jedi D'oh]

I didn't think you meant me, I've just never seen that. Sorry.

[Martini]

yea im sure of it bond. you too have been insulting me and agruing just as much. so dont be pointing fingers. this is like a f**kin playground and i got someone ratting me out for something i did wrong. haha, so funny and so childish. all well

[Martini]

and as you would say bond........."back to the topic"

i just think and most people in the US think that Vader will be the only way to make Ep3 enjoyable like the OT had

[Darth Vegas]

Well I'm gald that you know so many millions of people Martini.

You just don't get it.

Having alot of Vader will only ruin this film, for the sake dramatics and continuity between the two trilogies, there will not be alot of Vader.

If you going to say you're an adult, at least act like one.

I haven't insulted you once, I refuse to go down to your level.

[Martini]

yea but you prefer to run and cry to your mama or the mods in this case? its ok, do what you will.

anyway, back on topic........ So your saying that we cant have any vader fighting? its gotta be all anakin? no way, who makes up those rules?! YOU! not a chance

[Jedi D'oh]

Not NO vader, just a little bit. not half a movie of the suit.

[Martini]

bond, have we ever agreed on anything? jeez. i think you and i need to form our own thread where we can just go at it. how about it? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

and if i made any insults that you find offensive, im sorry ( i guess). but there wasnt anything mean said here. i dont curse or call you names directly. so chill out man and grow up. learn how to fight for yourself

[Martini]

yea i totally agree Doh, we just need some vader. i want like 30 mins of him at most. just one saber fight with him in the suit and one outside of the suit. that way we can compare very well how anakin is changing in this movie. i dont want too much vader and i certainly dont want none

[Jedi D'oh]

No vader would be an insult, as would alot of vader. If his name is vader before the suit, that's one thing.But suited vader needs only a little time at the end.

[FerrisWiel]

Or, better yet, since Lucas is re-writing history, perhaps we could have a surprise ending! How about Anakin doesn't become Darth Vader! Instead, Amidala becomes Darth Monatrix, complete with lazer whip and black leather bustierre and cybernetic breast enhancements following a tragic nursing accident with the twins!

Whaddya think?

--FerrisWiel
"No no no, none of that. It's silly."
-Any number of Monty Python characters

[Jedi D'oh]

Sounds good to me. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Martini]

hahaha, yea she needs breast enhancements. Natalie would be perfect if she had em. all well, cause size does matter.

but come on ferris, back me up on this topic. what do you think about Vader being suited in EP3?

[nerfer]

I think we need to see Vader in some form mebbe in a partial suit or something but not the Vader that we see in ANH!
Because to do so, would ruin the dramatic impact created by the first moment we see Vader when he boards the Tantive stepping thru the smoke filled door. That was our first introduction to him and to see him before that, would ruin that moment.

[FerrisWiel]

Here's my idea

No music.
No visual.
Then:

*respirator inhale*
-quickfade up, all white background as in all fadeups-
Pulling on the leather bodysuit
*respirator exhale*
-quickfade down-

*respirator inhale*
-quickfade up-
A hand puts on a glove
*respirator exhale*
-quickfade down-

*respirator inhale*
-quickfade up-
Putting on a boot
*respirator exhale*
-quickfade down-

*respirator inhale*
-quickfade up-
Adjusting the breastplate
*respirator exhale*
-quickfade down-

*respirator inhale*
-quickfade up-
Hands reaching for helmet
*respirator exhale*
-quickfade down-

*respirator inhale*
-quickfade up-
Show from behind, helmet snaps into place
*respirator exhale*
*respirator inhale*
*respirator exhale*
*respirator inhale*
*respirator exhale*
*End part of Imperial March, the one where Vader leaves the bridge of the Executor in ESB, swirling Vader cape as the frame is left empty punctuates a hold on last note and...

SW Fanfare
Roll Credits

[Martini]

.....and then we see a final lightsaber scene of him killing off the rest of the jedis! right? thats what i wanna see but the final duel would be the best in this trilogy if it was between Obi-Wan and Anakin. but you can look at it in that way. this is only the middle of the story. so why does it have to end that way? so I'm thinking the lava pit duel wont occur till abuot 3/4 of the way thru the movie. then we'll get one BIG saber duels with vader and the jedis and the last one will be vader killing off the last jedi, mace windu

[justafan]

Well, Agent Bond, buy your life insurance, 'cause I think this is the first time that I completely agree with you on a topic.

Vader Vader Vader will kill Ep3.

There is too much other information to show, too many questions to answer, too much stuff that needs to happen in order for the OT to flow from the PT.

We need to see Vader become Vader, and eventually put on the suit (see, I didn't day "don"). But only a tease, a small taste, just a little of the Vader we know and love there at the end.

[Martini]

Wouldn't you wanna see a suited vader kill mace windu? kinda like his first test as a sith. i sure do. and i KNOW most of the country wants to see a suited vader too. yea dont show too much but if we get about 30 mins of him like that, it'll be perfect. great tie-in to the next trilogy

[jedisaber]

yeah, but as it was, there were THOUSANDS of jedi, how is vader and palpy supposed to kill ALL if them

[Martini]

if you "only watch" TPM and AOTC, you only see and hear about 3 or 4 dozen jedis. so when EP3 starts, we might be down to about 12 or so.

[Jedi D'oh]

Yes Martini, I want to see a suited Vader kill Mace Windu. Remember guys, this movie will end on a down note, not a big celebration like the others. To have Vader in the Last 15-20 min. of the movie would be just fine.

[Mothman]

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."

You guys make it sound like Vader has to personally destroy each and every one of the remaining Jedi. Obi-Wan only said that he HELPED the Empire hunt them down and destroy them.

[Jedi D'oh]

Yeah but......to see the most powerful peron IN the empire(besides Sidious, who never does his own dirty work)take out the key players from the movies would be cool.

[FerrisWiel]

How about I preface my idea:

With the PT standing as is, EPIII should have, halfway through-
*The Jedi and Obi-Wan "betraying" Anakin after discovering his marriage to Padme
*When the council tries to take Anakin into custody he injures one of the Jedi, thinking he killed him
*Anakin, frantic and on the verge of being drummed out of the Jedi order turns to his old mentor, Palpatine, with whom he has counseled in the past
*Palpatine advises Anakin that he cannot go back, lying and saying that he has killed in anger and that the dark side is flowing within him
*Anakin denies at first, but remembers killing the Tusken Raiders on Tatooine (no flashbacks, though, please), during this time Palpatine further convinces Anakin with other instances and "proving" the Jedi to be hypocrites.
*"There is a higher way, though. One that brings order to disorder and balance to imbalance. The Sith."
Palpatine's seductive offer, which includes provisions for Padme, seals Anakin's fate.
*Throughout the entire prior part of the picture, the Jedi council has been picking up hints that Palpatine was really Sidious, while Anakin and Palpatine are speaking, the Jedi close in on their location and prepare to enter.
*Anakin senses and as the group of Jedi enter he fends them off, growing ever stronger as he feeds on the Dark Side. He wipes out the majority of the council, except Obi-Wan and Yoda, who were elsewhere.
*Yoda and Anakin have taken great strides to hide Padme, who accquired a serious terminal disease from the scratches she received in the Geonosis arena. The "sanctuary" world is covered in volcanoes.
*Anakin, looking for Padme to bring her back to Coruscant, finds the planet and Obi-Wan greets him, attempting to sway him from the dark path.
*Anakin will hear none of it and they duel. Rage spills from Skywalker and Obi-Wan is forced to physically subdue him.
*As the battle winds down and Obi-Wan gains the upper hand, Anakin loses his footing. Obi-Wan sees an opening and drives Anakin over the edge.
*Anakin hangs by his cybernetic arm, pleading and crying for Obi-Wan to save him.
*The Jedi hesitates, yet relents, but by the time he gets to the edge, Anakin slips into the abyss. Crushed, Obi-Wan weeps.
*Obi-Wan returns to the house where Yoda and Padme wait. Yoda knows what has happened, Padme cries. Her medical droid informs her that she is pregnant with twins.
*Padme, Yoda and Obi-Wan leave the planet, seeking refuge on Alderaan with Bail Organa.
*Anakin's charred body is retrieved by sith doctors (a concept from another fan's script on the Starkiller site)
and he is returned to health over the course of several months.
*The Jedi purge, headed for a while by Boba Fett, continues, killing Jedi of all ages and types.
*The twins are born on Alderaan and separated, Luke being delivered to Owen Lars, his Step-Uncle and Leia remaining on Alderaan with Padme, who has assumed a new identity, and Bail Organa.
*Obi-Wan moves to Tatooine considering the bittersweet irony.
*Yoda moves to Dagobah.
And then....the scene I wrote earlier.

Any other ideas?
--Ferris Wiel
"And I'm spent."
-Austin Powers

[Martini]

what about dooku and mace?

[FerrisWiel]

Originally posted by Martini@Nov 1 2002, 01:35 PM
what about dooku and mace?
They kill each other in a duel earlier in the film. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

But seriously, Mace spots Dooku and follows him, discovering the true identity of Darth Sidious. Dooku detects him and they fight. Mace kills Dooku and is then surprised and killed by Boba Fett (y'know, revenge) before he can inform the Republic...this sparks the investigation by the council which tracks them to Palpy.

[Martini]

yea whatever. dooku will die by anakin and then mace will die by a suited vader

[FerrisWiel]

Suited Vader is a bad idea. I don't want to see MY classic Vader in these atrocious films. That's why I wrote it the way I did.

--Ferris Wiel

[Martini]

yea but dont you think that bringing back a suited vader will make EP3 just as good as any of the OT films? i sure do. its the best way to bring back something that is EXACT as the OT. yea i guess you could say about yoda or the bounty hunter, but even they look different. we need to see Vader kill least one jedi

[FerrisWiel]

No. Putting in classic elements won't improve shoddy pictures, it will just cheapen the classic elements. I don't want a direct connection made between Hayden *Whinybaby* Christensen and the coolest Dark Lord of the Sith ever.

Glimpses are okay, but I don't want the Vader who said, "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" having anything to do with the Anakin who said "Yippee," and "I would say we are encouraged to love."

I'm fine with Anakin killing in his original body, I want Boba to do some killing, particularly of the BMF, but other than that, no.

--Ferris Wiel

[Jedi D'oh]

Sorry to inform you but the connection was made as soon as TPM came out. Too bad for you I guess.

[FerrisWiel]

Originally posted by jedi-d'oh@Nov 1 2002, 02:30 PM
Sorry to inform you but the connection was made as soon as TPM came out. Too bad for you I guess.
Perhaps I'm just reluctant to lend any further credibility to these horrible films.

While the correllation can be drawn, the films are more easily dismissed because there is no Vader.

I say easily dismissed because 3P0 and R2 have been in several stupid TV shows and movies so this is just another set, Obi-Wan is a kid and not the wise sage of ANH, Yoda is completely divorced from his ESB image, and the host of other characters are *yawn* uninteresting.

Vader would lend credibility to the film without the filmmakers having to actually do their jobs well. This I cannot abide.

--Ferris Wiel
"Must notify customer of all back orders at time of precall"
-Hancor Shipping Document

[Jedi D'oh]

Of course the correlation can be drawn, that's the purpose of the movies. While you may not like it, the Anakin that said "yipee" (horrible, by the way) is the same Anakin who said "Apology accepted, Captain Needa."

[FerrisWiel]

Are my messages not making it all the way through? I said the correlation can be drawn but it can also be easily dismissed for the reasons I cited.

--FerrisWiel
"In the event of a water landing, your seat can be used as a flotation device."
-airline instruction manual

[Jedi D'oh]

Yes they're making it through, I think you are just being thickheaded. Vader from the OT is right there in the PT, just in different form.

IF I understand you correctly, you think that no Vader in the PT equals no connection to the other movies. Young Obi in the PT does not match Old Ben, so they can't be the same. Well, maybe you're right. I don't think so, but maybe you're right.

[FerrisWiel]

"Now you're gettin' nasty."
-Indiana Jones

What I believe is that no Vader means exactly what I said: no credibility. Lucas has written himself into a corner and throwing Vader in there is just a way to have people overlook the shoddy writing job he's done.

I can see the PT as a parallel dimension or alternate universe, and it's easily divorced from the Star Wars reality because of the vast difference between the PT and the OT.

--Ferris Wiel
"When I have beef log, o' what joy! I'm a happy beef log boy!"
-Brak

[Jedi D'oh]

OK. I can see us butting heads on this forever. But at least I can say that your opinion/statement is at least believeable. Not only that, but it is also intelligent and makes sense, which is rare to find here sometimes. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[FerrisWiel]

That's all I ask. And that everyone acknowledge 2 things:
1. I'm terribly funny
2. I'm always right
3. I'm dead sexy

--Ferris Wiel
"Agreeing to disagree makes for lousy talk radio."
-Ferris Wiel

[Jedi D'oh]

And you shall recieve!

[Martini]

noooo

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!!!!

[Jedi D'oh]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif at Martini

[FerrisWiel]

Speaking of credibility, it looks like I've accquired some.

--Ferris Wiel
"Why are we walking like this?"
-Dante Hicks

[Jedi D'oh]

I agree. You intelligently came back at me with your remarks and none I would consider a flame. Kudos!!

[FerrisWiel]

<font style='width=80%; filter:glow(color=orange)'>I don't flame! I never flame!</font>

Seriously.

--Ferris Wiel
"Anger subsiding. Rage quelling."
-Mr. Furious

[Jedi D'oh]

Glad to hear it style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif Seriously though, I started off not liking you cause of your bashing of the PT, but I see that you're not doing it "just because". Your feelings on it and the points you bring up at least make sense.

[FerrisWiel]

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

--Ferris Wiel
"You diabolical fiend!"
-Blankman

[Jedi D'oh]

OK back to the debate....

I think having a suited Vader at the end of III would be a good tie in to the OT. I would like to see the suit be like a pre-evolution of what you see when he steps on the blockade runner in ANH.

[Martini]

whoa whoa whoa. and your saying my opinions dont make sense? they sure do!

[FerrisWiel]

I still prefer my quickfade idea. (Remember, the one from page 6?)

--Ferris Wiel
""Claims subject to verification."
-Wendy's Movie Mania ticket

[Jedi D'oh]

Nope. I never said that his were the only ones and no one else. I was saying that it was refreshing to hear some intelligent remarks that make sense unlike a certain person who shall remain nameless.

[Martini]

no no. go ahead and drop that persons name

[Jedi D'oh]

No. I will not. It's not you, though.

[nerfer]

<span style='color:c1007e'><span style='font-family:comic sans ms'>

Was it me?! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

I think the idea of a early form of Vader's suit is okay ( I think Lucas has mentioned that this is how Vader will be seen.)

I still believe seeing the Vader suit that we know from the Original Trilogy in the Ep3 would lessen the dramatic of the earlier films. </span></span>

[Jedi D'oh]

Of course not nerfer! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

I've yet to see you be sarcastic or unintelligent. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[nerfer]

Why sank you Jedi D'oh. Hehe, when I was younger (well I'm not really old now) I was the Queen of sarcasm and put downs.

I'm a bit more mellow these days though. YAY not long till the DVD! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Jedi D'oh]

Mellow is the way to go. ONLY 7 DAYS LEFT!!

[conron_montyn23]

what ru talking about? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

:0 thats it!

nevermind. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif

[darth frosty]

I think GL did mess up these stories from a die-hard fans prospective. This was due to his own genious though. He created the perfect trilogy. If he had left it at that all would have been happy. But, the he says theres more to the story...a pre-quel. And since we heard that, we have been waiting and speculating about these pre-quels. for me, and I would like to know how others feel, there were three main questions from the original series that I want answered. 1. What was the clone war that Obi-wan and anakin fought in. 2. How was Anakin seduced to the dark side. 3. How did Anakin and the emperor destroy the jedi. After to movies I have what i feel is a weak answer to the first question and little hope for the remaining questions to be answered fully in one movie.

[Justin]

"darth frosty"- what the hell is this? I have the name "Darth Frost" copyrighted, so please find another user name. If not, I will be forced to take legal action.

[spaceman2386]

you have to start some were i think he could of moved the story along alittle faster but he had to set up his story some how. but you have to say that the plot of the prequal is awesome.

[FerrisWiel]

No, I don't have to say it because it would be a lie.

--Ferris Wiel
"Thank you, come again."
-Apu

[Jedi D'oh]

Originally posted by Justin@Nov 4 2002, 11:10 PM
"darth frosty"- what the hell is this? I have the name "Darth Frost" copyrighted, so please find another user name. If not, I will be forced to take legal action.
Unfortunatly, Justin, you can do nothing. He is not using your name, it is different. Remeber Vanilla Ice? He ripped off the Queen song "Under Pressure" but changed the beat so it was new. Darth Frosty added a letter to your "copyrighted" name. Therefore, not the same.

If that was in jest, please ignore this post. Thank you for your support. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Martini]

legal action justin? dude u need to grow up and get a life. dont cry about it man. its not worth it