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JediBendu
08-30-2002, 01:12 AM
I’ve been wondering about how one could possible predict what could happen in ep3 when it dawned on me to look back over our own mythology, more specifically, the concept of the Hero Archetype .

The standard definition of an archetype is basically a prototype. *Jung however had another idea. When he spoke of an archetype, he referred to an image or idea that is housed in what he termed the collective unconscious. Jung states that these kinds of archetypes are manifestations of this collective unconscious that exists across all cultures and is common to people at all times and all places.
Joseph Cambell, a friend and mentor of GL, believed this and was convinced this is the reason why common myths and legends occur in literature across cultures. *I’ll distinguish between the Hero and the Hero’s Journey, both archetypes to which Cambell placed great importance.

"Each of us has a Hero, an Sage, a mercenary, a Princess within. Each of these pulls and pushes as we journey through the story that is our life. We need all of these energies to pursue life's adventure." As the Hero journeys the 'road of trials,' and we pursue the trials of our everyday lives, the Heroic task is to "integrate these parts or energies and win the prize -- our individuality, our sense of place, our sense of purpose."

Sound familiar? *GL’s adaptation of Cambell’s ideas in Star Wars is well documented. *His stages for the journey are as follows.

1) Ordinary World
2) Call to Adventure
3) Refusal of the Call
4) Meeting with the Mentor
5) Crossing the First Threshold
6) Test, Allies, Enemies
7) Approach to the Inmost Cave
8) Ordeal
9) Reward
10) The Road Back
11) Resurrection
12) Return with the Elixir

But the prequels aren’t about the Journey, as much as they’re about the hero.

In it’s broadest outline, the Hero is as follows:

The Hero’s birth is supernaturally predicted and conceived

The Balance of the Force Prophecy, the midichlorians/Force conceived Anakin

the infant Hero escapes attempts to kill him

Darth Maul’s attack, or even his release from slavery

The Hero infant demonstrates his precocious wisdom already as a child

Anakin’s mechanical and piloting skills

He receives a divine commission

Anakin’s admission into the Jedi Order

The Hero defeats demons

Perhaps referring to the Clone War, where he becomes the ‘best star-pilot in the galaxy’, maybe even defeats Dooku?

The Hero wins acclaim…

Anakin becomes a hero after the Clone War, gains the respect of the Senate and the Jedi Order

…is hailed as king…

Believes that he is the ‘most powerful Jedi ever’.

…then betrayed, losing popular favour

I’d say by the Order’s stringent adherence to the Code, although it could be Padme.

The Hero is executed

Obi-Wan’s infamous molten pit duel – the death of Anakin and the birth of Darth Vader. *A new story, the Hero’s Journey commences.

The Hero is vindicated and is received in the divine

Anakin saving his son, appearing with Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end of roj


The above outline can be applied to a few myths and legends, namely: Hercules, Oedipus, Apollonius of Tyana, Padma Sambhava, Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ

Anyway, opinions and thoughts are welcome. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

bodhisattva yoda
08-30-2002, 01:19 AM
it seems as if the structure is already set up. are you aware of stages for an archetypal villian or anything else that may be indicative of events yet to come..?

JediBendu
08-30-2002, 01:35 AM
Ya - but I'm unsure whether Palpatine is treated separately, or as the external embodiment of dicord/evil to which the Hero must confront.
There's also the concept of anti-Hero, which are villians with whom the audience identifies with - I think GL is setting up Anakin as the Hero, who becomes an anti-Hero because he fails the confrontation with Evil.
Campbell's a Hero with a Thousand Faces touched on this - Vader was definitely the Villian in Star Wars, although esb and roj he morphed in the anti-Hero. But seen in context with the PT, he finally is redeemed and becomes the Hero.

Winston_Sith
08-30-2002, 01:44 AM
Is there anything in mythology where the Hero becomes a Villain, and then the Hero again, all that?

JediBendu
08-30-2002, 02:00 AM
I was just thinking that, I could do some more reading but Hercules, for example, killed his wife and 3 kids. *It could be GL's own variant on the Hero's Journey, expanding on the standard as shown in Star Wars, or inventing a new archetype - eg the femivore archetype is relatively new.
A lot of Redemption stories involve religious myths, usually with a resurrection. The Fall is usually associated with Adam and Eve fro example.
Here's a selection of Jung's archetypes that may be applicable.

The Quest
The Journey
Sky father/Earth mother
Initiation
Mating with a mortal
The Task
Rites of passage
The Fall
The Call
The Sacred Marriage
The Magus
The Journey
Search for the Father (?)
Return to Paradise
Death/Rebirth
The Hero
The Wise Fool
The War in Heaven
The Devil Figure
The Outcast
The Virgin
The Shadow

JediBendu
08-30-2002, 02:52 AM
No I don't think the Hero becomes the Villian becomes the Hero is applicable. *The original Star Wars was about the Hero's Journey - Luke's. *The Villian was Vader, but at that stage Vader wasn't Luke's father.
esb and roj protrayed Vader as the fallen hero, one who's path was the same but he gave himself to the dark side.
During the Journey, a Hero must confront evil, darkness, and mortality. *Luke does this in the OT and wins. *He integrates the dark side into himself and becomes a Jedi - the trials.
Jung described this as a necessary transition for all humans. *The Ego (rational consciousness) confronting Shadow (psychological reality which the ego regards as unacceptable) and the emergence of Self (the trans-personal power that originates and sustains the ego). *Inflating the ego can result in grandiosity ('Someday I'll be the greatest Jedi ever' ), hubris ('His abilities have made him, well, arrogant' ) and denial of death ('Someday, I'll learn how to stop people from dying, I promise' ).
While Luke learnt to integrate the dark side, Anakin didn't, but realised this while he watched his son being fried.
So the prequels are two fold, the classic Hero of divine origin (which may give some plot leads), and the Hero's Journey (which we already knew from the OT)
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

Tovor
10-06-2003, 10:46 PM
Bumped, cos this looks darned interesting.

goodwije
10-07-2003, 02:12 AM
It has been no secret the GL has used clasic mythology in SW. I don't see Anakin as a Herucules hero though. He does not spend his life righting his wrongs, his wrongs lead him deeper into shadow.

Personally in the prequels i see a more modern swing to the story. Not to say GL is not using classical mythology outlines. But in Anakin i see comparisons to addiction and mental instablity. Problems that have affected humanity forever sure, but problems we are having to face more and more in our modern society.

Perhaps we will see that, almost like Anakin has no control over the situation, he keeps spiraling and spiraling down into shadow. Coupled with Anakins demand for love and loyality, even to the point of damadging his career and family.

JediBendu
10-07-2003, 04:23 AM
Perhaps we will see that, almost like Anakin has no control over the situation, he keeps spiraling and spiraling down into shadow. Coupled with Anakins demand for love and loyality, even to the point of damadging his career and family.

or the entire galaxy style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

goodwije
10-07-2003, 04:44 AM
Once you have turned your back on your family and friends whats a little thing like a galaxy style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Javen
01-26-2004, 01:14 PM
But Anakin isn't a hero, or is he? The darkside rising. So...will Anakin be a Hero of sorts? To the darkside he is...

SmokemDeathsticks
01-27-2004, 09:55 PM
But Anakin isn't a hero, or is he? The darkside rising. So...will Anakin be a Hero of sorts? To the darkside he is...

Anakin became a hero in RotJ when he destroyed the Emperor.

Took him long enough!

James T. Skywalker
01-27-2004, 10:30 PM
Yes to note, but the Villain follows the same path as the Hero, the same journey, but follows the path of Darkness, the "via negativa" as it were, and each action as a result of evil deeds sends him further and further down this path. The more actions of a negative effect, the harder it is for that character to be redeemed.

So yes, it is possible for a hero to become a villain then go back to hero, but every action must be accounted for and as such you must do twice as many good deeds/actions to return to the "via positiva" (the path of good) to make up for your evil actions.

That's what the sacrifice at the end of Return of the Jedi constituted: the rooting out of the darkness by a final, redemptive, all-encompasing act that brought Anakin Skywalker back to the via positiva.

(Thanks Mr. Trafton who taught him this shtuff... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif)

~JTS

Momin327
01-27-2004, 10:44 PM
Interesting...

Javen
01-28-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by SmokemDeathsticks@Jan 27 2004, 08:55 PM
But Anakin isn't a hero, or is he? The darkside rising. So...will Anakin be a Hero of sorts? To the darkside he is...

Anakin became a hero in RotJ when he destroyed the Emperor.

Took him long enough!
I know that but I am talking about in EPIII. As in will he sacrifice himself for his friends etc, etc...so he becomes a sacrificial hero then becomes a hero to the darkside. Almost a double standard. See what I'm saying, heck I don't even understand what I'm saying. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif

Trilogist
01-28-2004, 12:27 AM
I believe Campbell himself said in an interview that the hero becomes the villain when he refuses the call. I will look for my book and post that quote.

cj790
01-29-2004, 11:09 AM
I've been writing on this topic for a few years now - I love Jung and Campbell; they helped me get through my degree style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Have you read any Vladimir Propp? Read his book The Morphology of the Folktale if you are interested in this at all.

Trilogist
01-31-2004, 12:19 AM
Well I've been poring over my books and can find nothing of the reference I made above; yet I can remember such a statement. I did, however, find an interesting passage concerning refusal of the call to adventure:

Originally posted by Joseph Campbell@ "The Hero With a Thousand Faces"
Refusal of the summons converts the adventure into its negative. Walled in boredom, hard work, or "culture," the subject loses the power of significant affirmative action and becomes a victim to be saved. His flowering world becomes a wasteland of dry stones and his life feels meaningless -- even though, like King Minos, he may through titanic effort succeed in building an empire of renown. Whatever house he builds, it will be a house of death: a labyrinth of cyclopean walls to hide from him his Minotaur. All he can do is create new problems for himself and await the gradual apporach of his disintegration.

In many ways, an apt description of Anakin Skywalker and his conversion to Darth Vader. So perhaps by looking at the mythological pattern, we may conclude that in Episode III, Anakin "refuses the call" to adventure, turning away from his true destiny.

JediBendu
01-31-2004, 07:24 AM
refusing the call of responsibility perhaps? turning his back on the jedi when they need him the most?
maybe the guilt of making such a choice is a contributing factor in turning to the darkside?

Trilogist
02-02-2004, 07:23 PM
Could be. Or maybe he needs to destroy Palpatine, and he can't bring himself to do it. Or he gets so wrapped up in duty to the Republic and the Chancellor, he neglects his wife. Then, in guilt, he turns away from his own identity, disowning himself and ceasing to be Anakin Skywalker.

Who knows. But I can see Anakin -- or Darth Vader, that is -- as King Minos. Building an empire, trying to become more and more powerful, but it gets him nowhere. In reality, he is still a slave. A slave to the Emperor and to the dark side.