New Hope Vader Not In Charge?

[NIGHTTRAVELER]

Is it just me, or was Vader not really in charge in A New Hope?

The officers in the meeting room all back-talk Vader, and more or less make light of his "ancient religion". Tarkin snapps at Vader, ordering him to release the choke hold.

In the prequels, it seems that the Sith apprentice's are literaly second in command. This seems odd by the time you get to Ep. 4.

Any thoughts? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tie.gif

[LordTyranus]

Well it is clear that Tarkin is higher in the chain than Vader, and that is probably because he was a seasoned military leader in the Republic and he has clout with the men, the Emperor knows this and allows him to hold Vader's leash, so to speak, I always thought the pecking order was Emperor, Moffs and Grand Moffs, than Vader, the Imperial enforcer.

[Darth_Stinky]

It's odd yes. But only Dooku has any real military alliances in the two so far. Vader does not have a military comission to my knowledge. But what's weirder is that the Jedi do get General ranks during the Clone Wars as evidencedby ANH's revelation that Obi-Wan was a general. Vader has command over troops. Maybe he is Supreme Commander of the Imperial forces. Remember, Tarkin was a political affiliate. Not a military one. That would make sense since here in the free world, the military leaders are under the politicians.

[Jedi Master Shaft]

I agree with you, my friends.

Lord Vader was in Star Wars under the command of the politician Tarkin. Tarkin must officially be some kind of strategic military leader and Vader must be 'only' the commander of the Imperial Forces.

Simple. After Tarkin's failure over Yavin with the Ulitmate Weapon, Emperor Palpatine decides to give Lord Vader strategic powers; this is why Vader is in command of the Imperial Ships searching the rebel base in Empire.


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tie.gif

[Obi-Stu]

I agree with you Master Shaft, When the Death Star was destroyed, most the Empire's top leadership went with it.

There is then a change of attitude within the Empire towards the Rebel Alliance and Vader takes over as Chief Whip. It seems that his main task is the destruction of the Alliance

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by NIGHTTRAVELER@Aug. 12 2002 - 23:45
Is it just me, or was Vader not really in charge in A New Hope?
I don't know if that's the case. Tarkin was the commander of the Death Star, so I saw Vader as deferring to him for that reason. It's similar to Star Trek, where on occassion we'd see an Admiral aboard the ship for a mission, but Picard still commanded the ship and called the shots. That didn't change the fact that the Admiral was higher ranked, it's just that the ship still "belonged" to Picard.

[DblDwn]

I agree that at some point perhaps Tarkin is placed in charge of the construction of the Death Star like that one guy whos name I can't remember at the beginning of ROTJ. Therefore when it is completed the Death Star becomes Tarkin's command just as the Executor is Vader's command.

As for the other officers on the Death Star talking about Vader's "loyalty to that ancient religion" maybe that is because they just aren't familiar with the use of the Force. Think about it. Tarkin is old enough to remember the Jedi and Jedi Temple and days when the Force played a prominent role in the Republic but perhaps the other officers, who really didn't look older than mid-to-late '30s for the most part making them around 10-15 years old at the time of Episode III, are simply not old enough to have seen the Jedi and/or the Force in action in its heyday. They had heard stories but that only goes so far.

Just like I've heard that Bigfoot lives in my state (I live in Washington) and I've even seen pictures in tabloids and such, but until the day that I see it for myself I'm just going to assume that a bunch of hillbillies talked Uncle Bart into putting on a monkey suit for a quick photo-op in the forest.

Same thing as the officers on the Death Star regarding the Force. Nobody really said much after Vader choked the one guy with the Force because they had then seen what it is about.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

I actually think that Tarkin was of higher rank in A New Hope. Vader even seemed loyal to him. ["Vader, release him!" "As you wish."]

I'm thinking that Vader is Palpatine's immediate subordinate in Ep3, but Anakin's hotheadedness never goes away, so Vader disobeys one of Palpatine's commands just to suit himself and his own personal revenge (I'm thinking something that has to do with Obi-Wan). After its all over, Vader is demoted and his rival, Tarkin, pulls ahead.

[Justin]

I don't think that the idea of Vader being the right hand man of the Emperor was formed yet when Lucas made A New Hope. I think that he decided to make it that way in Empire.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Yes, but that has nothing to do with what Lucas thinks now. I don't think Palpatine would appoint Tarkin over Vader, because clearly, Palpatine has some sort of relationship with Anakin/Vader.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Gandalf@Aug. 13 2002 - 16:36
I actually think that Tarkin was of higher rank in A New Hope. Vader even seemed loyal to him. ["Vader, release him!" *"As you wish."]
But saying "As you wish" doesn't seem to indicate any inferiority on Vader's part. He doesn't say "Yes, sir" or anything of that sort. "As you wish" seems more casual, sort of like saying "Ok, if that's what you want", as opposed to not having a choice because of orders from a superior. If Vader was truly angry, I didn't get the impression that he would have obeyed Tarkin.

If anything, I'd say he respects Tarkin. His words toward Tarkin didn't seem grudging or resentful, which they probably would have been if Tarkin had been given rank above him. Vader does have temper, after all.

I think the situation is like I said before: Tarkin's the station commander. I think Vader's only interest in ANH was locating the stolen plans. He has no reason to be interested in station command, especially if it's in someone else's able hands.

I think Justin's right ultimately, though. I don't think Lucas had Vader's role completely thought out yet at that time.

[DblDwn]

Good point Borg.

Just to clarify for anyone not understanding at this point:

Tarkin is in command of the Death Star. That is why Vader follows his orders because it is Tarkin's station. A real life example of which would be that President Bush, the most powerful man in the world, doesn't go to #10 Downing St and tell Tony Blair that it is bedtime at 9:00.

Vader, because of his abilities to use the Force, is more of a Special Missions Commander. He is like John Clark in a Tom Clancy novel. That is why Vader is in charge of recovering the stolen Death Star plans, locating the Rebel Base (on Hoth), and turning Luke to the Dark Side of the Force. Although Vader is still higher in the Imperial Chain than Tarkin he still respects Tarkin's command of his station.

[Saranac]

Grand Moff Tarkin was an Imperial Govenor in charge of many of the Outer Rim Territories including Tatooine. He oversaw the construction of the Death Star and was the Emperor's closest advisor. He died in the Battle of Yavin.

This was taken from a book containing information about the OT. This might clear some things up.

[Mann]

Does that mean he was second in command? Does anyone think he should be in Episode III? I do.

[DblDwn]

I don't think that the Emperor would put a non-Force user ahead of Vader in the food chain of the Imperial Fleet. To put Vader in charge of the Death Star would have been a waste of his abilities. Since Vader is Darth Vader Dark Lord of the Sith he really doesn't need, or I assume have, an Imperial Rank. He is simply the Emperor's right hand man who is in charge of the Super Star Destroyer Executor, his personal ship, and is the one who oversees all of the top level missions that are more appropriate for his power within the Force.

[DblDwn]

Forgot about your question at the end Mann.

I agree that we should see a young Governor Tarkin in Episode III.

[Saranac]

It would look much more accurate if GL added Tarkin to Episode III.

Maybe Vader didn't have much Military intelligence?

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

I really do hope that a young Tarkin will be in Ep3. I'd love to see his character develop as a young man. But I think that if Vader was higher in rank, then Tarkin would be giving lots more respect to Vader. I just don't see Tarkin being under Vader.

[Saranac]

That would be good to see, but I get the feeling GL isn't going to add him.

[The only one]

I know tarkin didnt what to lose motti. he told vader to let him go because he was a high ranking officer. vader saw that they needed motti so, vader just put a scare in to him so he wouldnt talk back.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

I asked the Jedi Council at SW.com if Tarkin would be in Ep3, still no answer. I really do think he will be in Ep3. But I'm fearing what Lucas said earlier, "I'm putting some well known characters in this one, but they don't have any importance. They're just there so people could say, 'Hey, isn't that...'"

I really hope he doesn't mean Han, Chewie, or any other classic characters. I just want characters that would have some significance in Ep3; they're there for a certain purpose, like Tarkin.

[Saranac]

I hope they don't put Han Solo in.

I thought his opening Cantina scene was excellent where he kills Greedo. Adding him Episode III ruins his introduction.

They better add Tarkin in it would make much more sense.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

I totally agree Saranac. Han had the perfect introduction, and I love his image as being this charming drifter who just so happened to come along.

Yes, Tarkin HAS to be in Ep3.

But that is another topic.

[Justin]

I think it would be cool if Han Solo was in Episode III just in passing, not like a big role. If he was just a kid who shows up in one scene and does some minor thing, like Greedo in Episode I (even though that scene was deleted). That would be kind of neat.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

I don't think so.

[Master Cephus]

The way I see it is as like in a management style. Like a line and staff thing. Tarkin is the line management and Vader is the staff. Vader does not have any authority (I mean in the sense like a military rank only I know the mother could force choke the whole empire :p ) He supports the line management...Tarkin. When Vader overstepped his bounds, Tarkin put him in his place. Just the way I see it...

[DblDwn]

Let's look at it politically. The Emperor is the President (that much is certain) and then I'd like to think of it as Tarkin is the Vice President and Vader is the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

When the Emperor is not around Tarkin is in command but he will listen to and consult Vader on affairs of the military (which would obviously be the fighting of the Rebellion).

Vader also serves as the Special Ops Guy I referred to him as previously because of his Force powers. An example of which would be his going into the trenches and participating in the Battle of Yavin.

I don't think that Vader really cares about 'rank' when he joins the Dark Side because his 'rank' isn't militarily speaking. He doesn't see himself as an officer in the Imperial Fleet. He sees himself as the apprentice to his master in the Sith (Only two there). However because Vader can sense things and see things before they happen that is why he would still be considered the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs because his opinions and foresight on matters of the military would be wasted without.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Yes.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Gandalf@Aug. 14 2002 - 19:15
Yes.
Am I to assume that you agree with me then JMG?

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

That's right. But I believe that Vader and Tarkin should have some history that is rooted in Ep3. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

[DblDwn]

I do agree. It would be good for the story of ANH if we see some sort of interaction, however brief and limited, between Vader and Tarkin in Episode III.

[Obi-Stu]

Hey DblDwn

I like your thinking, not only here, but in other threads too.

I might be wrong (I will have to check tonight) but when Tarkin and Vader tell the council that the senate has just been
dissolved, They enter the room together. I get the impression that Both Vader and Tarkin were in consultation with the Emperor. If this is incorrect, let me know (as I have been known to make mistakes, from time to time.)

[DarthLestat]

Here's the scene:
The Emperor's just declared martial law . You've got the Death Star, the most powerful technological force in the Galaxy, you've got Obi-Wan Kenobi, famous Jedi Knight, running loose on it, you've got thousands of crack Imperial troops available to find him. Then Vader says I must face him alone' and thats that, end of story.....

I think Tarkin is the main man on the Death Star, but if Vader wants something, only the Emperor can overrule him. He's the Emperor's right hand, his enforcer.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Obi-Stu@Aug. 15 2002 - 02:39
Hey DblDwn

I like your thinking, not only here, but in other threads too.
Thank you my friend. That was nice of you to say.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Maybe Vader is Palpatine's top man, and he told Tarkin to "take care of him" while he's on the Death Star, and make sure Vader gets everything he wants, or its Tarkin's head.

[Obi-Stu]

I might be wrong (I will have to check tonight) but when Tarkin and Vader tell the council that the senate has just been
dissolved, They enter the room together. I get the impression that Both Vader and Tarkin were in consultation with the Emperor

Vader & Tarkin do enter the room together after hearing word from the Emperor. Either way, both are close to the Emperor.

Maybe Vader is Palpatine's top man, and he told Tarkin to "take care of him" while he's on the Death Star, and make sure Vader gets everything he wants, or its Tarkin's head.

Or something very similar I would think

[Saranac]

Grand Moff Tarkin was an Imperial Govenor in charge of many of the Outer Rim Territories including Tatooine. He oversaw the construction of the Death Star and was the Emperor's closest advisor. He died in the Battle of Yavin.

This was taken from a book containing information about the OT. This might clear some things up. Im copying my old post to help you out.

[The only one]

Vader was choking one of tarkin's men so, when tarkin told him to stop he did. motti was also very important to the death star vader knew that and, he didnt kill him.there is no way tarkin is ranked over vader.

[Tovor]

This has been riding here for some time now...I guess we must have missed it not being in the proper section. It belongs in Classic Trilogy, not Prequels.

Being moved ---->
http://www.galacticsenate.com/ikonboa....2;st=25 (http://www.galacticsenate.com/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=1462;st=25)

[actionjack29]

I think Darth Vader and Sidious only know who's really in charge!!!( Sidious first, Vader second). Even Tarkin is not aware of the Emperors Force abilities!!!(Remember, he tell Vader that he's the last of their Religion-ANH)!!!

[AlanRJ]

As the topic title asks if Vader is in charge in A New Hope then I have to answer no. He was not in charge. Tarkin was the person in charge of the Death Star, it was his command. However, that does not mean that Vader was beneath Tarkin. Vader is the right hand man on the Emperor and is not really factioned into the who military ranking system of the Empire. When Tarkin told Vader to release the officer that Vader was choking, he did so, but only because it pleased him to do so, not because he was following orders. Vader told Tarkin he was going to face Obi-Wan alone, he did not go seeking permission.

[Luvinna.]

Maybe this will shed some light on the debate:

From the Star Wars Insider #62, pg 35
By the time of the Battle of Hoth, Darth Vader has consolidated his posititon within the Empire as the favored agent of the Emperor. Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career.

Doesn't come right out and say it, but that does suggest (to me) that maybe Vader wasn't the one in charge in ANH.

[Obi-Stu]

From that point of view it would say you are right. This
dialog may fan the flames:

TARKIN: "Are they away?"

VADER: "They have just made the jump into hyperspace."

TARKIN:" You're sure the homing beacon is secure aboard their ship? I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work." - ANH

[MegoHulk]

I think it's very clear Tarkin is in charge. Vader may not like it but he can follow a chain of command....maybe he had a vision and saw the DS blowing up which prompted his leaving in his Tie fighter. heh..."should I warn the old bugger?...nahhh"

[Obi-Stu]

Here's something else I found on one of the scripts for ANH:

Suddenly all heads turn as Commander Tagge's speech is cut short and the Grand Moff Tarkin, governor of the Imperial outland regions, enters. He is followed by his powerful ally, The Sith Lord, Darth Vader. All of the generals stand and bow before the thin, evil-looking governor as he takes his place at the head of the table. The Dark Lord stands behind him.

[Raganork8]

tarkin is in charge but had he lived and the empire destroyed the rebellion tarkin would have been killed if you read "from the adventures of luke skywalker:a new hope" you would see that the only real reason tarkin is in charge is because he is govener of 16 star sytems that type of support is valuable to the empire to crush the rebellion but once the rebellion was to be defeated tarkin would have been disposed of.
in short the real empire is vader and palpy the whole fleet and star destroyers and everything are for temporary support it's NOT a military empire but a sith empire.

[darth scourge]

Rumour has it that a young Tarkin might be in Ep3.As for Vader being beneath Tarkin i wouldnt agree,the Emperor might have sent Vader to supervise Tarkin and co. but not interfere with their military strategies etc.Darth Sidious sent Darth Maul to Naboo to supervise Nute Gunray and co. and he didn't give them orders.So Vader was probably doing what Palpatine instructed him to do.If Vader killed all of the smart mouthed Officers Palpy wouldn't be happy and the rebels would have a field day.

[Sargoth]

To help clarify the relationship between Tarkin and Vader, take a look at how the former Soviet Union operated. For a specific example, take the movie "The Hunt for Red October". The submarine follows under a military heirarchy, with Captain Ramius being, well, the Captain. This is the role Tarkin plays. Motti, Tagge, et al, are his senior officers - seasoned military veterans who follow the chain of command.

But also, you have the political officer Ivan Putin. He is the "eyes and ears" of the Kremlin. It is his job to see that the crew of the sub is acting according to the "will of the party". The officers and men don't salute him, nor do they take direct orders from him. But they must respect him, because he is the one that will be making the report back to Moscow and the Party when the mission is completed. In extreme circumstances, he can belay an order of the Captain, but he'd better have a danged good reason. He is also one of the two men needed (the other being the Captain) in order to commence a nuclear missile launch on board the sub.

During ANH, Vader was not within the military rank & file. He was an Imperial Emmisary, acting at the behest of the Emperor, not a military commander. The Death Star was Tarkin's boat to command. But I'm sure had he stepped out of place and done something that was against the will of the Empire, Vader would have stepped in. Tarkin held a higher rank within the Military, Vader held a higher rank within the Empire.

I do hope we get a glimpse of Tarken Motti and Tagge in Ep3. They were the "old crew" who helped to bring about the Empire. They were perhaps the "best and brightest" of the Imperial Navy - all wiped out in one swift stroke.

[Sluggo]

Originally posted by darth scourge@Sep 29 2004, 04:25 PM
Darth Sidious sent Darth Maul to Naboo to supervise Nute Gunray and co. and he didn't give them orders.So Vader was probably doing what Palpatine instructed him to do.Quoted post


This is a good observation. I like it.

[Sith_Mikeximus]

I look at it this way, if the Vice President of the U.S. was onboard a U.S. Air Craft Carrier, the captain of the Air Craft Carrier would still be in charge of said ship, even being able to give the VP orders if it meant keeping the ship safe.

Vader could be likened to the Vice President in this situation, Tarkin being the Captain. Vader would be there in a supervisory position, but, in the scheme of the military, it was Tarkins Boat to run....

[Kapit]

Originally posted by Sith_Mikeximus@Oct 11 2004, 01:06 AM
I look at it this way, if the Vice President of the U.S. was onboard a U.S. Air Craft Carrier, the captain of the Air Craft Carrier would still be in charge of said ship, even being able to give the VP orders if it meant keeping the ship safe.

Vader could be likened to the Vice President in this situation, Tarkin being the Captain. Vader would be there in a supervisory position, but, in the scheme of the military, it was Tarkins Boat to run....
Quoted post



i agree

i think it's quite obvious he's not in charge of the DS

[James]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Gandalf@Aug 14 2002, 08:36 AM
I actually think that Tarkin was of higher rank in A New Hope. Vader even seemed loyal to him. ["Vader, release him!" *"As you wish."]

I'm thinking that Vader is Palpatine's immediate subordinate in Ep3, but Anakin's hotheadedness never goes away, so Vader disobeys one of Palpatine's commands just to suit himself and his own personal revenge (I'm thinking something that has to do with Obi-Wan). After its all over, Vader is demoted and his rival, Tarkin, pulls ahead.
Quoted post


I agree

[Tresk Im'nel]

I look at it this way, if the Vice President of the U.S. was onboard a U.S. Air Craft Carrier, the captain of the Air Craft Carrier would still be in charge of said ship, even being able to give the VP orders if it meant keeping the ship safe.

Vader could be likened to the Vice President in this situation, Tarkin being the Captain. Vader would be there in a supervisory position, but, in the scheme of the military, it was Tarkins Boat to run....

I think that about sums it up. Vader probably did have seniority over anyone other than Palpatine (bear in mind that there were twelve Grand Admirals, an unknown number of Grand Generals and probably far more than twelve Grand Moffs, I doubt if they all outranked Palpatine's own apprentice...), but the fact that Tarkin was in command of the Death Star would give him considerable direct personal control over its operation. Vader could probably have overruled him, but only under exceptional circumstances, and not without causing quite a stir...

[Obi-Stu]

Well that killed that topic...

[Ripley the Warmaster]

I see this as mutual respect. Tarkin comes off as one of the few people Vader wouldn't kill, and Vader was respecting Tarkin's place as head of the Death Star.

[Tresk Im'nel]

I see this as mutual respect. Tarkin comes off as one of the few people Vader wouldn't kill, and Vader was respecting Tarkin's place as head of the Death Star.

There may well be an element of that. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif Coming from Vader, being allowed to live is quite a compliment. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif Or it could be that Palpatine wouldn't let him summarily execute anyone higher than and Admiral/General/Moff (i.e. not anyone with "Grand" or "High" in their rank/job title... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif)

[Kapit]

maybe, but i still think vader messed up somewhere and is kinda getting punished and thus tarkin actually has control over him

[Tresk Im'nel]

maybe, but i still think vader messed up somewhere and is kinda getting punished and thus tarkin actually has control over him

Either that or Vader didn't mess up, but the chain of command is just set up in such a way that Tarkin has final authority over everything that happens on the Death Star. That makes sense to me, given that Tarkin is in command of the station. Vader probably got sent to check up on him, but that wouldn't give him a free hand to overrule Tarkin except under truly exceptional circumstances...

[Kapit]

ah, good point

it's quite obvious vader's not in charge

[Tresk Im'nel]

it's quite obvious vader's not in charge

Yeah, I doubt if Palpy would have let him give Tarkin the ol' Imperial Navy Early Retirement Plan... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Kapit]

it would've been a funny scene to see old skin and bones get choked

*sigh* oh well, wishful thinking

[Sargoth]

Originally posted by Tresk Im'nel@Oct 12 2004, 01:03 AM
it's quite obvious vader's not in charge

Yeah, I doubt if Palpy would have let him give Tarkin the ol' Imperial Navy Early Retirement Plan... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
Quoted post


Look on the bright side. Officers serving with Vader get field promotions *much* faster than officers serving in other Commands style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Sith_Mikeximus]

Originally posted by Sargoth@Oct 12 2004, 01:17 PM
Look on the bright side. Officers serving with Vader get field promotions *much* faster than officers serving in other Commands style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
Quoted post



Yeah but on the flip side, the officers under Vaders command also get demoted at a higher rate as well, and the demotion a little more severe style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

[Soontir Solo]

Thats what they get for not completing there missions.