A Proposal

[scribe88]

I have had a germ of an idea for some time for an audio play which would involve Amidala and Palpatine after she becomes Queen but most likely before she becomes Senator. My previous work in the fan audio genre includes serving as Shmi in Rise of Nobility and writing the script for that audio drama. I expect this to serve as a sequel to RON. Our Padme Amidala, Elizabeth Ascot, has said she would reprise her role if a script were written.

My problems are: One, our producer and director have effectively RETIRED. They have said they do not want to work on something of this length ever again, and I am not going to go through all the work of pounding out a quality script if there is no production team (requirements are that you be both dedicated and good) to hand this over to.

Secondly, we'd need a Palpatine. Is there anyone out there who can do a Senator Palpatine voice? Because again, I don't intend to waste my time on a story if there is no one out there who can read the part.

Thirdly, this would be contingent on me getting Keith Abbott back at least as a story consultant. (Guess I better ask him, huh?) Or, barring that, other consultants who can help flesh out the idea. I have certain deficiencies as a writer I usually tend to need help with.

So I'm throwing this out there: If you're a producer or a Palpatine, would you be interested in taking over the helm of a big RON-type project? Reply here or PM me about any other work you've done in fan audio so far and we can talk.

[keithabbott]

You already have a story in mind or need one from scratch?
Keith

[Nathan Butler]

I do a fair, granted "fair," Palpatine if a voice ends up being necessary in a pinch. I did the same part for an Ep. 3 flash animation project that apparenlty died and for Ted Alderman and Bryan Henry's Resurrection audio drama.

[scribe88]

Keith:

I have a skeleton plan. Basically, it would be like what you did before, help fit my story idea to already existing continuity and work around tough spots. I have some thoughts about continuity, but chances are you could come up with better ones ... or point out why mine won't work ...

Nathan:

Thanks! So far I have two leads on a possible Palpatine, but NO leads on a producer or a production team. If we don't get that, it's no go.

Think you can put me in the classifieds??

--LL.

[Nathan Butler]

Yeah. Give me some exact descriptions of what you need and I'll put up a news byte about it, then add you to the classifieds. Might want to explain what duties you need covered, kind of like how Keith did with the acting parts for A Summer's Dream.

[scribe88]

Would a simple link to this thread be bad? Or should I write up something else?

Basically, we need a producer and a Palpy. If we don't get those, no use in even writing a script.

[Nathan Butler]

Heh, I'll just link here then, yeah. That works. Should be up shortly.

[scribe88]

Cool, thanks!!

[scribe88]

except ... you misspelled my name ...

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Nathan Butler]

Bah, I'll fix.

[keithabbott]

I wish I had the energy and desire to produce another lengthy audio drama, but...sigh..it's just too much. But I'll do what I can to help on the short end of stick to keep the ball rolling.

Keith

[scribe88]

Many thanks.

I'm not likely to do much unless/until we get a producer, though.

[keithabbott]

Well you most likely won't find a producer without a script Linda. If it's a great script you're more likely to find someone. Catch 22, but that's the way things work around the fan media realm. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Keith

[Nathan Butler]

You'll also likely not find a really good producer without really wowing him/her. At least of the current batch of fan audio mixers, most are fairly well focused on their own projects.

Keith Abbott: As he says, not up for it, and is working on ASD.
Richard Brookes: Working on Final Fantasy audio drama.
Nathan Butler: Out of dramas while working on sourcebook materials.
Jay Chipman: No word on status, but did "Coruscant?"
Steve Fluharty: Doing "To Overcome" and will then probably start on "Nothing Changes."
Chris Hanel: Now in Los Angeles and mostly out of fan audio.
Gregory Harbin: Doing "Kids" and will then start on "Superhero."
Steve Mollmann: Beginning work on "The Universe Key."
Jeff Roney: Working on Tatooine TV constantly.
Michael Sheridan: Working on The Logan Chronicles series.

I guess the only one who isn't already pinned down on something would be Bryan Henry, the guy who mixed Resurrection, but whether or not he'd be up for it is anyone's guess. Otherwise, you're stuck with needing to find someone new to the community, or doing it yourself.

[keithabbott]

For me, the only reason why I'm even doing aSD is because I'm going to personally play the lead part myself. I'm not an actor persay...but I understand this character pretty well. I can easily relate. So I think if I pretty much use my own experiences and act as I would act under the same conditions..it'll work.

That way, I dont have to spend all this time going back and forth over the internet with re-recordings. I just record on my own and edit it. Piece-o-cake.

Granted, the acting bit..we'll see. Hopefully I'll get some great feedback on that as things progress. I'll do what I can to help on Linda's project though. But just don't have the patience and time to produce something so big again.

Keith

[scribe88]

I don't have the time to spend on something that's never going to get done.

I'm trying to write a screenplay, which I might actually have a prayer of selling. I can see putting time into another audio script after that first draft is done, while I wait for things like critique and do rewrites on the screenplay, but if I'm just going to put months of time in for nothing, I'd rather use that time for another screenplay. Why put months of time in on something that's just going to sit mouldering in a drawer? Plus, I'm not much into SW anymore anyway ... not enough to just write it like fanfic for my own amusement.

So, if there's no interest, I'm not going to waste the time. I don't have the technical knowhow to do it myself. I am the most computer-stoopid person in the universe. Plus the feedback from other interested parties is instrumental in writing. RON wouldn't have turned out anywhere near as well without it.

If anyone runs out of projects, wants to do something, but doesn't have a good idea or a script, PM me. Otherwise I'm dropping it. If someone new happens on this in the future and might want to work together, lemme know ... I can always resurrect the idea at a future date.

Thanks anyway ...

[Nathan Butler]

DISCLAIMER: About to get marginally pissy.

Y'know, not to sound snippy, but what precisely did you expect? Espeically in such a small community, you can't expect people to get hyped up and leap in as a mixer on a project if you can't provide any indication of what they'd be getting themselves into. You've given no indication on length, cast size, complexity of the required mix, when a script would be able to be ready, or how soon you'd want to have it finished, and, more importantly, you're attempting to get people to commit without having a script at all, only a vague notion of what that script might be about, if and when it would actually be written.

You're effectively saying that the passion for the notion only runs as deep as the 100% confirmation that it would be completed, otherwise you'll say "screw it," and, to top it off, you're essentially asking that someone come in and do pretty much an entire project for you, without being the one to craft the story and develop the writer's passion that most fan audio drama creators use as their primarly fuel for keeping a project going.

Now, from what I know, you write a fair amount, but for fan production communities like that of fan audio and fan films, you have, it seems, a lot to learn about how those communities operate. If you'd have stepped into a fan *film* board with the same request ("Hey, I have a vague story idea, so if I write it, will someone do the entire rest of the project for me, please?), you'd have been flamed repeatedly and otherwise slapped around like a neophyte with delusions of grandeur. It happens almost every day in that community.

The fan audio community is a bit more tight-knit, due to its relatively small membership of only a few hundred participants, but the same dynamic of most people not wanting to put in tons of work on something they had no hand in crafting the story for, where the writer doesn't even seem to have the time or willingness to put forth a script before asking for a committment, remains the norm.

To put it mildly, if you don't feel the project is worth the time and effort to write a script before you starting asking around for people to commit to anything involved, let alone to produce the entire audio drama, you're never going to end up getting one made. It's just not going to happen. You have to put in the legwork before expecting someone else to take the baton.

[scribe88]

I think I may have been misunderstood, here.

Let me explain it like this:

When I wrote RON, I didn't expect that to ever get finished, either. People were busy, and we had no idea HOW on earth we'd ever get it made. What we did have was a group of people talking about an idea, and passing thoughts about it back and forth as it was being written.

At any time, it could have fallen through. People could have declined to continue with it for whatever reasons -- time, work schedules, illness, or creative conflicts. (And the latter almost happened, too!) But the fact was there were a few people with an interest, and we were discussing an idea with a view toward making it if things worked out to permit it to happen, and the project met everyone's satisfaction.

The good thing was, we all met in person. I didn't have to come onto your website and risk offending you while hunting for other interested parties on your turf. Now I'm in that position. I've basically been orphaned by my production team. If the only other teams who produce audio only produce their own scripts, guess it would be good to find that out now. I would hope you could tell me that without biting my head off.

Perhaps you should realize that we work very differently. This has already been pointed out in the thread on a best director award. Not everybody does things the same way you do.

I'm a writer only; I don't produce. When I wrote RON, it was a collaborative effort. I started out with an idea which I submitted to the people who might end up making it. "This is the idea I had; what do you think?" I refined that idea according to what the other people wanted to do or thought would work. I made major changes in the story and characters according to what others on the team liked, observed, and wanted.

To me it makes sense to work this way. I don't know anything about computers or audio production. Not only does it waste my time to try to write in a vacuum, it's probably a dumb thing to do. To just forge blindly ahead would probably result in a script that a.) had major problems from a production standpoint which wouldn't have been there if I'd gotten advice as I went, and b.) maybe wouldn't even appeal to anyone. When you get input on the ground floor, everyone can put their oar in, and you get a product that everyone on the team wants to do.

All I'm on here saying is, I'm a writer, I have an idea for a RON sequel. Let's discuss it. If it can meet our mutual satisfaction, maybe we will have something we will want to make. I'm not going to tell people how many characters, and that sort of thing, because that may be something they need to tell me! I think that an audio producer knows more what they are capable of making than I do.

Not only that, but if I did produce, I'd want to spend my time on something I personally liked. If someone doesn't like my ideas, they can say so, and things can be shaped so they can work on something they will be enthused about. If not, we don't continue ... or I maybe drop my idea and work on one of theirs they 'commission' me to do. I'm not asking anybody to make something "for" me ... I'm looking for collaboration. Hence this announcement while it's still in the baby stage ... much easier to make sweeping fundamental changes if need be.

I fail to understand how this is bad "etiquette." How else am I supposed to hook up with people who know how to mix???

By the same token, if a person who could mix happened to show up here and wanted someone who could write, I would hope that we would get together and discuss whatever ideas that person had. I wouldn't yell at the person for not having these and those specifics, this and that timetable. I wouldn't call the lack of such things "bad etiquette." Hopefully they have some idea what would interest them in a project and so do I; this is when we discuss, generate, and refine ideas. I would hate to see such a person come on here looking for a writer and get booed off because they are asking somebody to write something with little in the way of particulars. Is that what you would do???

I hope not. Nathan, this isn't the first time you've bitten my head off, and I'm starting to view you with a certain amount of distrust. If there is a logical reason why a person shouldn't try in this way to find others who possess the skills they lack, in order to pool ideas and collaborate, please explain what that is.

About the flaming that goes on on other boards ... We're only fans, not professionals. Mean, snippy, elitist attitudes are one BIG reason I'm not into fandom the way I used to be.

As I said, if nobody in the fan audio community is ever interested in collaborating in this way with people they don't know, on a project they're not going to write, better to know it up front. I'm busy, and I can choose to spend my time in other pursuits.

[Nathan Butler]

Point 1

What I'm trying to say is simply that you don't approach this in the same fashion as the fan audio community in general, and the fan film community from which 90+ percent of the fan audio community came from.

For better or worse, the RON project, as with Betrayed Federation, several early parodies, and Jedi Talk, were created externally, without much of a direct crossover into the larger communities until post-release. Now, while that still made for good finished products, it leaves many involved in what amounts to, for lack of a better term, ignorance, or at least newbiedom, in understanding of the fan production community as a whole.

In that community, it's generally considered very bad form, worthy of flames or heckeling, for anyone, even the most established of individuals, to essentially say, "Hey, I've got this script, someone make it!" or "Hey, commit to my project, even though I have no script at all at this point." In the larger fan production community, that's about as taboo as putting X-rated content in a fan film, and it is rarely, if ever, responded to positively. To my knowledge, having been in the fan production community since about 1999 in some form or another, I have only heard of perhaps two instances, *ever*, in which a person made the kind of proposal you made and had someone leap aboard and say, "Yes, I'll commit to this project that I'll be doing almost all the work for, even without a script to go on yet."

It's simply not a realistic expectation to think that it's going to happen, and to describe the entire premise as a "waste of time" and "something that's never going to get done," while simultaneously describing a declining interest in the source material, when the inevitible lack of people leaping aboard happens, just sounds like childish behavior to me, as it would to anyone else who has been in the fan production, particularly fan film, community, for very long.

Point 2

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The good thing was, we all met in person. I didn't have to come onto your website and risk offending you while hunting for other interested parties on your turf. Now I'm in that position. I've basically been orphaned by my production team. If the only other teams who produce audio only produce their own scripts, guess it would be good to find that out now. I would hope you could tell me that without biting my head off. [/b][/quote]

There's no need at all to come here or to Fanworks to get a project made. If anything, the biggest fan audio productions that have been released have utilized the fan film community and personal contacts, such as in the cases of Second Strike and Rise of Nobility, to get done.

As for being "orphaned" by the RON team, I'm wondering what you expected there as well. Perhaps there's some unique dynamic in the Shaven Wookiee group that would've suggested that you'd form this long-running troupe after the completion of RON, but unless that was stated, it seems that "orphaned" may be a bit of a harsh term for the end of a project and everyone going their separate ways as would happen in any production. Is there something we've missed about a committment on behalf of the team to future projects, or was RON originally intended as a one-shot that you weren't even sure would get done in the first place. It seems to me that labeling the team as having "orphaned" you casts a bad light on Keith that, from where I stand, doesn't seem deserved. He did a hell of a job, but when a production is finished, it's finished.

As for "biting your head off," I'm simply trying to impart a bit of knowledge about how the fan production community tends to work and explain why having a "screw you guys, I am goin' home" attitude to the lack of response on someone committing to a project without so much as a script yet is highly unjustified. Again, it casts a bad light on another party, in this case the community as a whole, with the notion that no one was generous or caring enough to help the poor little project that could get off the ground. You have to give a little to get a little when it's a non-profit medium and you're intending on someone picking up the lion's share of work on your own project. That's just how it is.

Point 3

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>All I'm on here saying is, I'm a writer, I have an idea for a RON sequel. Let's discuss it. If it can meet our mutual satisfaction, maybe we will have something we will want to make. I'm not going to tell people how many characters, and that sort of thing, because that may be something they need to tell me![/b][/quote]

Then perhaps you should've said something to that effect, rather than simply seeking someone to mix after the writing process was complete. You never said anything of the kind in your call for help, and specifically referred to you, and you alone, "hammering out" a script.

Point 4

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I fail to understand how this is bad "etiquette." How else am I supposed to hook up with people who know how to mix???[/b][/quote]

Covered above. In a nutshell: when asking someone to take on an entire fan production, outside of writing chores, you shouldn't expect anyone to bite unless you have a script to show for it first, and to take a negative attitude when no one responds to a no-script call for full productoin assistance shows an extreme ignorance of how the fan production community works. Again, it's a give a little, get a little community, in perhaps every arena but written fanfic.

Point 5

By the same token, it would be bad ettiquite for someone to step in and say, "I want to mix something. Somebdoy out there write something for me!" It's not QUITE as bad, as that situation is putting the bulk of the work on the person asking for assistance, but it remains something that, in the fan production community, few people will leap up and say "yes" to.

Point 6

I think you're missing the entire point of what I wrote. It's not that you came in and had the "bad ettiquite" to ask for someone to take on a project committment without a script in-hand. It's the "ah, screw it" response and utter surprise when no one leaped at that proposal.

Point 7

This, I just find amusing:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Nathan, this isn't the first time you've bitten my head off, and I'm starting to view you with a certain amount of distrust. [/b][/quote]

I'll have to remember that. When someone is blunt in speaking the truth of why a call wasn't answered, it shouldn't be seen as honest, but something to distrust. Gotcha. Harsh truth is still truth, however sucky it might be to hear. I'm also quite interested in the "this isn't the first time" comment, which I find somewhat lacking in basis, unless there's something I've slept since and forgotten. Methinks someone's too sensitive.

I trust the reasoning is all clear now?

Take your time, come up with a script, even if only a tiny bit at a time, and I'd imagine that once there's a script for someone read and get into, there'd be someone up for coming aboard. But until there's something to show to prospective producers, you're not going to get much of a response, whether it's a RON tie-in story, something totally new, or any other kind of non-profit production.

And, yes, THIS one was snippy. You don't take pot-shots about trust when the person speaking is telling the truth, even if it's blunt. That's not gonna fly, and I'll step up and defend that truth when it is assaulted. Be careful before casting "trust suspicions."

[Eaglet]

I'm sorry, but I really need to put in my two cents here.

You CANNOT expect people to do a project with you if you don't even have a script.

You CAN ask them to help you, but when no one stands up to the plate, you CANNOT get angry and whiny when no one responds to your request.

Sure, you've done an Audio Drama. No, I haven't listened to it, and don't really plan to, but even if you've done an audio drama, that doesn't instantly give you enough 'fame' in the community to start barking orders and expect people to follow.

You're not Steven Spielberg, you're not Alfred Hitchcock, heck, you're not even Nick Hallam or Nathan Butler. If you can't do a project on your own, then I'm sorry, it's not gonna happen. So give it up, and stop giving Nathan crap for trying to tell you so.

When I wanted to make an audio drama, I first got the script together before asking anybody to help. Sure, I asked for a mixer on 'Superhero,' but only *after* I had gone through a LOT of work to develop a script for it. If your script idea isn't good enough, or you aren't motivated enough, to write the script without a guarantee of it getting made, then maybe you need to rethink WHY you are making the AD in the first place.

Is it to satisfy the rabid RON fans, to placate the amassing masses that are demanding a sequel? Hey, maybe those people exist; I really don't know. But if they do exist, then they'll help you get the show done when you get a script written. If they don't exist, then why are you bothering? Work on your feature script, something you can actually make money off of. And just leave the SW AD community alone.


-Gregory

[Nathan Butler]

Okay, I revise my earlier statement.

*That* was snippy. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

That's basically what I've been trying to say, minus the idea that experience means you can step up and "bark orders." Even if you're Chris Hanel or Joe Monroe, I don't think it'd matter. You still can't expect that someone will jump in without a script. Granted, some names might make you more sure of the quality you'll get, but even then, I'd still have to slap Chris for that audacity. But, see, he wouldn't pull that because he knows the community well enough to not try it.

And, I would recommend listening to RON. It's going to get my vote for Best Mixer when the People's Choice Awards open up, and were it not for Ben Fletcher, their Padme or Jar Jar would be getting my Established Character vote. It's worth the listen, whether you download it from starwarsfanworks.com or riseofnobility.com.

That was the point, though. You just can't get all flustered when someone doesn't heed the call without a script. Just the way it goes.

"Eaglet" there (Gregory) knows that as well as anyone, I think. He wrote a script a while back called "Superhero" that, even with it in-hand (and it is quite good, in my opinion), he wasn't able to find people to jump in on for full production. So, he's trying his hand at mixing his own short Star Wars story ("Kids") before leaping into mixing "Superhero" on his own.

At least I think that's still the plan. Gregory?

EDIT: An then he goes and adds info about "Superhero" to his post. Great minds . . . style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

That being the case...

Gregory: Is there any suggestion or advice then you would give for her if she were to try to start dabbling in audio editing herself? You're starting out small with the scope of "Kids." How are you intending on learning and building up toward "Superhero?"

[Eaglet]

Well Nathan (I'm great at this interview thing since I was a guest on CR style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif ), basically, I looked at my script for 'Superhero,' and saw that it was 50 pages long. That means 50 minutes. And it had a bunch of locations, characters, plot twists, ect. It was too much to do for my first ever 'dabbling' into Audio Drama mixing.

So, I set out to write, as I told you before I wrote it, a '5 to 10 page Star Wars Audio Drama.' So, I came up with a simple plot (which turned out to be more intricate than I'd originally intended), and wrote a 10 page script, with only 4 or 5 characters, and only (I think) a couple locations. I put things in that would help give me practice on doing 'Superhero,' such as including rain (which turns out to make a lot of sense when I'll get around to mixing it, oh you'll see what I mean).

Basically, I figure I can start small, and then build up to a larger goal, which is the 'epic' SUPERHERO. And, along the way, I'll have done a SWAD, gotten a little recognition in the community (my grab for being 5th Llama didn't seem to do the trick), and gain some valuble contacts for when I do the larger project.

However, I think Mrs. Lyons' problem lies in more than just her being new to the mixing scene. It's more that she just doesn't have the time to make an Audio Drama. If she did, then she could just write her story, and then somebody would mix it if the script was good enough. But as it is, she doesn't have enough time to even write a script, so I really don't know where she'd find the time to mix the AD when it's written.


-Gregory

[Nathan Butler]

Sounds to me more like a situation, then, that begs a turnabout. Like, instead of asking for someone else to assist on an audio drama she doesn't have time to really get into, perhaps she'd do best offering something like script consultation to other projects already being written, if there are any of those around.

That'd make more sense as far as the way the community would receive the proposal, y'think?

[scribe88]

OK, I will.

Obviously this all got off on the wrong foot.

If I misrepresented myself in the beginning, I'm sorry. Consider my previous post a clarification of what I meant to say the first time.

I don't know exactly what inspired me to get grouchy up there. When I read the post before mine, I felt snapped at, and I sounded off. If I misinterpreted, I'm sorry. (But only if I misinterpreted.)

I can make the time to write a script if I want to. Obviously the one I'm working on needs to get done first, but I can do story development while I do that, and when that goes into rewrites I'll have time to script an audio play. The question for me is, is it worth my time? I've only ever worked with someone else from the concept all the way through. I wouldn't want to work any other way for the reasons stated. I mean, I could ... but would prefer not. I think RON turned out much better for the greater number of cooks that started the soup.

If there's no one available to work with at this time, fine. If what I originally wrote didn't give that impression, I'm sorry and wish to correct it. Apparently there are folks out there who don't work ANYTHING like we did, and I just assume everyone works the same way and we're all on the same wavelength, when we aren't and I need to be more clear in explaining the process by which I would like to work. I wouldn't feel comfortable just winging it without somebody who knows what they're doing mixing and can give story input. When you are writing a screenplay there are books upon books you can buy for guidance and to learn what you need to know. We don't have that in fan audio.

I won't go into specifics here, but there have been a couple of times in the past you seemed to snap at me, Nathan, so maybe I'm more ready to fly off the handle here than I would otherwise be. I already had the impression you didn't like me to begin with, so I have this tendency to read everything you write to me that way. And I observe that you seem to be reading everything I write that way as well. It's hard to see every sentence being interpreted in ways that didn't even occur to me as I typed it.

Anyway, I'm sorry I've poisoned the well here. If this is irretrievable and everyone thinks I'm a crock of **** now, just close the thread.

[Nathan Butler]

And now it's a totally different post to respnd to, isn't it?

Response: Take 2!

:: clack::

Yes, the wrong foot has been gotten off on . . . In the non-dirty fashion of that phrase. (Shut up, Galasso!)

Here's my suggestion on the script:

If you really like the notion of the story, you should write it. I mean, if nothing else, it can show up on the RON site as a supplemental tale, right? And then if it can be made, it will be. In my view, anything written is worth writing if you enjoyed it and grew from it. If you end up having spare time to write a little now and then, do that. Then if and when it's ready to go, maybe the community will have grown enough to really have enough free people to make it happen. If you're worried it won't, just go small-scale. Maybe half an hour story with 5 - 10 characters, perhaps?

Having people help with the script doesn't necessarily have to mean constant work and contact. Even if you only had a couple of script editors to help out, you could do it off and on over, heck, as long as a year, and still come out with a good final script. I mean, it's fan audio, not professional. There's no need for it to hit a certain target release date. We know that from most of the audio dramas out there so far.

As for books, I know there are some out there, but I can't recall what any were. You might check the thread of resources that BryanH started. He has tons of cool links in there.

And, no, I have nothing against you. Actually, truth be told, I have nothing against most people online. Actions rub me wrong, but I try to not have anyone I would consider an enemy. That wasn't always the case, but has been since I became (don't laugh, it's true) a "born again Christian" my Freshman year of college. I argue, debate, and defent with vehemence, but always against actions, not individuals.

So, let us know when you decide to do more with the script idea. I'll keep a note out about it, and if nothing's started by April, remind me and I'll put a reminder in the next ChronoRadio for any aspiring audio mixers who haven't stopped by the Fanworks news page this week.

[scribe88]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>You still can't expect that someone will jump in without a script. [/b][/quote]

See, I just SO don't get this. Who would want to spend months making something they had absolutely no story input on at all??

I don't think you people are HEARING me, here. I would never just expect somebody to complete something, period. If you're talking with me about possibly making a project, you are not committed to anything. You're talking with me about possibly making a project. I'm sorry if I failed to make this clear.

If someone popped out of the woodwork tomorrow and said, "Sure, I'll bite," I still wouldn't feel that obligated the person to finish anything. We're amateurs, and this is Darth Real Life we're dealing with. I didn't expect ours would get completed!! At any point, if interested parties are no longer interested, you're off the hook. No sweat. It's nice that RON did get made, but the point was I *developed it with* the people who would make it.

I could, if I wanted, just get with Keith and Elizabeth and do a story treatment and script. But Keith and Elizabeth aren't the ones who are going to have to do the grunt work to make it. (What??? I take that back. Elizabeth is volunteering to act in it! Duh ... if that's not grunt work, I don't know what is. But there it is again ... if I do another Padme story she's gonna do a lot of work in, I think that entitles her to be involved and to have a say about it. So what did I do? I asked her about it first.) I feel more comfortable tailoring something to the people who think they may DO it ... NOT THAT THAT IN ANY WAY OBLIGATES THEM TO DO IT. As it is, I would not do more than a story treatment with just Keith and Elizabeth.

For example: suppose somebody wrote a great story ... about all Gungans. Groan. If I knew how to mix, so much about it would majorly turn me off. I'd have to really like the story I was mixing. How much better to grab the writer at the beginning, and be able to say, "I hate Gungans and I sure as hell won't mix a story about them. Why don't you make the characters Rebels instead, set it at Hoth, and by the way, I've been itching to try out such and such an effect, and could you write that in?" Then your poor writer doesn't have to rewrite the entire thing for you later. It can go farther in the right direction from the get-go. I mean, if you have access and input as it's being written, you KNOW it will be something you'll be happy working on. And you can make suggestions such that you get something YOU in particular will be happy working on.

Would anybody in here actually consider making something they had absolutely no input in at the beginning? I can't imagine it ...

Initial story input isn't a big job. I think I took up ... what, maybe 2 hours total of Keith's time while I was writing, start to finish? It wasn't much, but we both knew then that it was on the right track. You look at a story treatment, and either say, "Hmm," or you say, "Yuck!" If you say yuck, that's it. End of discussion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>It's more that she just doesn't have the time to make an Audio Drama. [/b][/quote]

No, that's not it. Even if I wanted to make the entire thing myself, I CAN'T DO IT, because I know nothing, nothing, nothing about sound and mixing! I can't imagine myself tinkering around with ... sheesh, I don't even know the name of what Keith used to mix ours. He took stuff into consideration making ours that would never even occur to me. He was trying to show me how the program worked, and I *still* didn't feel like I would know what I was doing. We're talking TOTAL LACK OF TECHNICAL KNOW-HOW, folks. As well as, I fear, lack of good instincts ... And don't you have to buy a lot of stuff?? I'm financially strapped here right now. Just got out of the hospital ... six weeks out of work with no income ... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

I can write. Period. Cast, yes. Possibly even direct, but mix??? *falls over laughing*

I am available to consult on ideas other folks are writing. No one's ever asked me to do that, but I'd be happy to if someone ever did.

[Nathan Butler]

Aha! You've got the gist of it right there.

What it sounded like was the notion of no writing input on behalf of the mixer. Essentially a hand-off. That's something very few in the fan film or fan audio communities will likely go for.

You'd do better, probably, approaching someone in the community who can mix and saying, "Hey, I'd like to team with you on a project. Interested?" That way, you have a hand in choosing who might take you up on the offer, and it's known right off the bat that it's collaborative, rather than otherwise.

That's how I had to approach Chris Hanel for Second Strike.

Now, sometimes, people DO approach you out of the blue asking for projects. That's how Steve Fluharty, the brilliant mixer for No Way Out, the forthcoming To Overcome, and (hopefully) Nothing Changes, became involved with Rayzur's Edge Audio. It just doesn't happen *often*.

What I'd do is do some prelim outlining, maybe not actual writing, and then sort of shop that around. I'm sure during summer there will be more people opening up to do projects. But it probably will end up not being of Abbott or Fluharty quality. What you're probably looking at if you're looking for someone to team with is someone who is just starting out and needs help from the preproduction side of things.

As for HOW to mix . . . if you can get your hands on WaveLab, the tutorial we put up at Fanworks would get you started quite easily, and people around here would be glad to give pointers, I'm sure. It's the full job of mixing that will turn people off, more than anything else.

[scribe88]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What it sounded like was the notion of no writing input on behalf of the mixer. [/b][/quote]

Good grief, NO!!!

I'm sorry if it sounded like that. I included Keith and Elizabeth's names because, well, I listed the reason for including Elizabeth above, and Keith because he helped me out big time with just the sort of tight spots last time that I will need the help with this time. Not that someone else's input wouldn't be welcome, but I've seen Keith work miracles inside of 5 minutes before and I know he's brilliant at just the sort of help I need. Even if I had a mixer lined up, Keith would still get a first hand look at my work, if I could at all twist his arm to do it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>You'd do better, probably, approaching someone in the community who can mix and saying, "Hey, I'd like to team with you on a project. Interested?" That way, you have a hand in choosing who might take you up on the offer, and it's known right off the bat that it's collaborative, rather than otherwise.[/b][/quote]

That's what I WAS doing!! or in any case, MEANT to do.

(The fact that it somehow didn't come off sounding like that in the first place means that I still obviously still have some shortcomings as a writer. I thought I did a pretty decent job with that first post when I posted it, too. Obviously not. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif SEE why I need people to review what I write, the more the merrier???? I don't care how good you are, sometimes you **** up. My bf is a published author and I looked at a chapter of his in progress the other night and told him politely that it needed serious help. So people better than I am screw up ...)

When I posted that thing that got your knickers in a twist, what I was saying was, Looks like no one is available and interested in a collaboration, without which I don't want to just write a script on my own. That's really nothing more than fan fic, which I don't want to do anymore. NOT, no one can promise me they'll make it, so BLEAH style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif!

I'm going to try to pound out a treatment, which you may be sure Keith and Miz Liz will see. But I'm not going to do anything more than a treatment at this point, for the reasons already stated.

It's entirely possible that there will be no good way to solve some of the problems I am having with it. (If Keith can't solve them it's a good possibility indeed.) But if they can, I still wouldn't move beyond a treatment without a production team, because I want folks to like what they're mixing ...

Anyway, Nathan, I hope we can shake hands and get along. It's possible for people to get bad impressions of each other, and for things therefore to start out needlessly sucky and get needlessly suckier. I hope not. Happens way too often in the fan community for my liking.

[Eaglet]

::watches on happily::

Looks like y'all managed to settle things right. Linda, I don't have a problem with this new attitude (or old, improperly represented attitude). I now *get* what you're trying to do. I'm still not posative why you'll expect that everyone involved wants a hand in the story writing, but hey, if that's what you're looking for, then sure it makes sense for you to ask people for help before you write anything.

Hopefully Nathan can find you a mixer/co-writer, or hopefully you can find one on your own, because I'm *always* looking forward to seeing what's going to come from the fan community.

By the way, I'm sorry if I sounded a bit snippy in my first post.


-Gregory

[keithabbott]

Goodness you guys have been busy talking. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Here's my additional 2 cents...


I'm considering doing "A Summer's Dream" because it's small scale. The script was already written so to speak. So, in my case, and even in the case of Ted Alderman when he did "Resurrection"...there are stories out there that people will produce that they didn't write or have story input in. Yes, I do plan on doing some adapting of the story, but it's very small-scale changes.

The MFC was a fan club....and RoN was a direct result of our interest to do "something fun". I too think "orphaned" isn't quite the best word to use. I did post on our Egroup if anyone wanted to help out with A Summer's Dream to let me know. I'd love to have as many people from our group help out as I can. But since there are only a few parts to fill acting wise, I really don't want to use anyone who has already acted in RoN for fear of mixing up the continuity we've set. Yes, Elizabeth will be reprising her role as Amidala. But I need different voices for Kun Lago and Sio Bibble. As for narration, Shawn was chosen as narrator because he was a member of the MFC and I really wanted to see him participate. Narration was the best we could do for him. But I'd rather have someone a bit more compelling in that role. As for the lead role, Ian..."Palo"...well...I'm doing that myself. Jar Jar was quite a different voice from something I might do with Palo. If my acting doesn't work out, I'll have to figure out something else. But in order to save time and make things simplier, it's easier for me to do the lead. I might be shaking my head later and say what was I thinking, but we'll see.

The point is, the story is what was compelling to me. It may not be my story but it works. I'd love to see Elizabeth's story made into an audio drama, but the chance of us getting John back to reprise that role (Raneely) would be hard and it's fairly lengthy already. That would be a mammoth undertaking, and that...well...is something I'm just not quite wanting to do right now. I love the story so far though...so Linda, in effect, I don't think it's impossible to find someone once the 1st revision of the script is done. The producer and director can always make changes as they need to down the line to make it work. You just have to get started and keep the faith.

Ever since I've known you, you've loved the darker side of Star Wars. I remember the presentation you did on Vader and your love for Palpatine was no less intense as Carol's love for him. If you want to see this made, you just have to believe in it and take the risks. You don't have to rush to get it done obviously, you can take your time with the script as you did with RoN. I'll help where I can, but you know as well as I do the complications of a large project undertaken by a lot of people. We really did something special with RoN...but for me it was a one time thing. I'm surprised I'm even considering doing A Summer's Dream. Very surprised actually.

Already I'm facing the same problems we had with casting RoN. It's a very slow process. One you have to be patient with as with many aspects of producing a drama. You may or may not find someone interested in mixing a sequel to RoN. But if the story is good...and you listen to other dramas or fan films and start personally contacting some folks...you never know.

Keith

[Nathan Butler]

I think Linda's covered things pretty well. I do hope a mixer can be found, but if not, perhaps someone who is already mixing something will open up later. Personally, I would love to get into mixing something new, but I just don't have the time (and feel somewhat inadequate next to Steve, heh).

On ASD: Please, Keith, don't fall into the Resurrection pitfall. I enjoyed Resurrection, but the ending made zero sense if you haven't read the comic. Make sure that you at least adapt enough for audio that there's not another "Vader stabbed through himself to hit Maul? When did that happen?" situation.

Reapating voices: Not a huge issue unless the characters are also very similar. You just wouldn't want the two projects to be seen as one to be listened to in one sitting.

As for the writing process, I'd agree that it isn't inconceivable for someone to come in after a first draft. It's the vagueness of the concept that would turn people off to jumping board.

So . . .

Linda, maybe this can help you find someone:

1. How long are you wanting to make the project?

2. How complex do you intend scenes to be in terms of sound layers? Lots of background sounds? Mostly indoors? Mostly drama, mostly action, etc.?

3. Do you have any time frame in mind for when you could have a script ready to go?

4. About how many characters do you intend to use?

5. How much voice alteration will have to be handled by the mixer?

Those might help give people a better grasp on the concept.

[scribe88]

*wipes sweat off brow*

Another fan calamity narrowly averted! (Thank God.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I'm still not posative why you'll expect that everyone involved wants a hand in the story writing[/b][/quote]

I'm judging everybody else by myself. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

I have a pre-story treatment ready which I plan to send off to Keith and Elizabeth today. I also have a couple of other people I'd like to show it to. Based on what they say I will revise it and then do a story treatment.

They could tell me the idea sucks, and what the hell am I thinking?? In which case, it may go directly to the toilet ...

SO FAR (and this is subject to change due to feedback),

1.) I'm truly sorry to say this, but I never pick a length and then try to fit the story to it. I write down what it takes to tell the story the best way I know how, see how long that is, and if the mixer tells me I need my head examined, then work on ways to lengthen or shorten. In the case of RON, the finished script ran about 45 minutes and that was cool with everyone. No alterations needed.

From looking at the preliminary plan, I expect a drama about the length of RON or possibly even shorter. I do not expect it to go longer.

2.) Drama. Action. Mostly indoors. For reasons to become apparent very soon, I think it may need a lot of echo sound effects. There is also one MOTHER of an explosion, which is heard from INSIDE another part of the same building.

3.) Time. Dear, oh, dear. If I had written more scripts I could tell you better how long it will take to do, as I also could if I had a more predictable job. But you run into difficulties at work, and difficulties with scripts, which I can't predict. I don't want to start this script until I'm done with the one I'm on ... which I certainly hope won't take me longer than, say, 3 more months. But as anyone who worked on RON knows, I can get majorly bogged down. Hopefully the Big Bogger-Downers on RON won't be operative here (dislike of main character, need to get out of every stuck part all on my own instead of asking somebody better at it for help), so the really long periods with no progress can be eliminated ...

4.) Main parts? Amidala, and (here's where it could get a bit dicey) Palpatine. If we don't have any prayer of getting a good Chancellor Palpatine, this story simply won't work. Minor but featured: One scene for Anakin at the approximate age he appears in AOTC. A Prime Minister. Minor speaking parts: I can't tell you yet. Sorry. 10? 15, maybe???

5.) Voice alteration. I really don't expect too much. UNLESS we have an approximate Palpatine whose voice can be brought closer to the real thing by means of some electronic magic. For this story I think it is more important that the Palpatine be an ACTOR as opposed to a perfect voice match, and amenable to direction, at least if I serve in that capacity. As Pam is "retired," I may have to ... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

Echoes, as I said earlier. But we all know Miz Liz doesn't need any alteration to sound like Padme, and as the rest of the voices will be original characters plus Anakin shouldn't be that tough, I really don't forsee any other alteration besides perhaps making a voice sound like it's coming from a speaker in a line or two.

I hope this is helpful. When I get opinions from my reviewers, I'll let you know whether they were yay or nay, and how things stand.

Many thanks for everyone's patience.

PS -- Keith: I did say I'd look at your script when you're ready. If you think I can make any contirbution, please, send it on.

[keithabbott]

Not to worry. That situation is completely different than the ending in this particular story. The narrative will sum it up nicely.
Keith

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>On ASD: Please, Keith, don't fall into the Resurrection pitfall. I enjoyed Resurrection, but the ending made zero sense if you haven't read the comic. Make sure that you at least adapt enough for audio that there's not another "Vader stabbed through himself to hit Maul? When did that happen?" situation.[/b][/quote]

[cinemafreak]

edited because like a nimrod, I forgot to read the second page of posts and realized that this may be the first time something like this has worked out in the end and everyone is happy.

[scribe88]

I'm proud to be the one, LOL!!

I hope this can serve as a template, maybe, for how to start people wanting to collaborate on projects this way meeting each other. I mean, if more and more new people get into fan audio, it stands to reason this situation might crop up again. I don't like to see fans sniping at each other when everybody probably means well. It's bad enough to see the pro writers snapping the heads off newbies at writer's seminars, when the ppl are so new they couldn't possibly be expected to know any better.

One suggestion I have is that if there is a proper and "established" way to do something, there be a sticky about it with all the whys, wherefores, and how-tos spelled out. I don't think it's fair to new people to come in with a friendly and enthusiastic attitude and get bashed over the head because they didn't know the "protocol." Ppl don't mean any harm and getting bashed is no way to learn, because then you start out with everyone mad at you. (Seen this happen on other boards over other issues, and it sucks for the new people.)

As an update, true to form, Keith pointed out a Big Continuity Whammo. I have to figure out how to fix it and make it tally with what he said while still making internal sense to me. I am researching on SW.com, but not really finding all the info I would like to find. So I will sleep on it for a few days and then revise and send this out to my evaluators again.

[LizAscot]

Whoah...

A lot has been going on since I was away. I guess I'll post this here--Linda, if you are worried about stressing yourself out over putting tons of work into a script that may not be used, I would be very happy to help in the writing process. I have written several pieces of Star Wars Fanfiction (yes I know--I've abandoned that durned Raneely story again!), some nominated on TheForce.Net for FanFiction Awards, and I also write non-SW stuff. I've been in a Writer's Group for a year now. I've done lots of beta work on TheForce.Net as well, so I've had a lot of experience with that sort of thing. That will take a lot of the burden of writing a good script off your shoulders (I hope).

But I definetly agree with Nathan and others--you have to have a good script before you can really get anyone interested. Soo...I offer my help with the writing of the project, and then you should think of doing more advertising for producers and other cast, etc. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Nathan Butler]

First post, and she agrees with me. She's off to a great start.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[keithabbott]

Welcome back Elizabeth. Hope you had a good vacation. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
Keith

[LizAscot]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif @ Nathan.

Thanks Keith, I did have a great time. Disneyworld was a lot more than just a couple of rides and meeting Cinderella, much to my surprise! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif But I'm glad to be back, too.

[scribe88]

I'm doing a story treatment.

If everyone tells me it's crap, then there's no point going further with it.

If I get generally good reviews on it, it's another story.

[scribe88]

I had more to say, but it simply isn't worth another round.

I just request again, on behalf of all future newbies, that if there are going to be rules about how to participate here, please spell them out and put them up as stickies.

[Nathan Butler]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif

Did that issue reappear somehow?

That's not a "rule," it's a common courtesy in any fan community. There's no sense in making up a list of what amounts to unwritten, unenforced, but commonly accepted norms. It should be common sense, most of the time. It's bad enough we have several pinned threads already when we don't have voting going on. I'm not going to clutter it with more, as two is often considered too much around here.

Social norms aren't rules that need to be posted, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the board admins, generally.

[scribe88]

That would be so much easier to accept, if people in general (and not just here) remembered that new isn't always stupid, arrogant, or rude.

Sometimes it's just, new.

Anyway, this is the last time I'm ever doing this. From now on, it's a completed script or it's nothing.

But, since I was already so uncouth this time, anyone who would like to have input is most welcome. It IS the best way I work. We had some good times putting RON together this way. It CAN work out well, and I have fond memories from it.

Otherwise I feel like I am just sitting by myself writing fan fiction, and I don't much like to do that any more. Other than not always leading to the best product, it just isn't any FUN. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[scribe88]

Looks like we *might* have a producer interested at this point. I've sent him a copy of the basic plotline, so depending on what he says we might have that sewn up.

I'll post more info when it becomes available.

[Nathan Butler]

Anyone know if this project is still doing casting? If not, I need to remove the link from the Fan Audio Classifieds on the Fanworks main page. If so, I'll leave it up.

[keithabbott]

Casting has not actually begun yet technically. Although I was putting some feelers out there for a Chancellor Palpatine. So far, I haven't heard a good one yet, not that I'm the one casting but I thought it would be worth getting some names together for the crew to look over as we get further into things.

Right now, I'm in discussions for possibly casting one new part in Linda's RoN sequel project. I need to get with one of our crew members first though. It *would* be a female role. And I already have someone in mind but I need to take care of one thing first before contacting her. I'm sure it's someone who'd think they'd be the last one to be contacted. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

But we'll see... For now just keep it open.

Keith

[keithabbott]

Revising my previous statement...

New update: http://www.riseofnobility.com/production.html

Keith

[keithabbott]

For those involved in the untitled audio drama by Shaven Wookie Productions, please visit

http://www.riseofnobility.com/forum

Please create a new bookmark for this web address. I'm closing our yahoo group down to new postings. It will remain for possible limited use in the future, but all cast and crew are urged to visit the link above and register.

VERY IMPORTANT: Once our cast and crew members registered, you'll be given access to the PRIVATE production forums. But you must register first.

Please do this asap. If you have any questions, please let me know via email at keithabbott@hotmail.com

Thanks
Keith