Christianity

[Jediwan]

Hi all Christians!

[T-bone]

Pre-Warning: DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A DEBATE/BASHING RELIGION THREAD or it will be promptly deleted. It appears this is a little meeting thread for people of one faith to talk. Those not of that faith are welcome to stop by but do not start trouble in here in the least bit - not even in sarcastic joking ways.

Please be respectful here and in every thread, thanks.

[maddog62]

I am Roman Catholic.

[Gazelle]

Hello, Gazelle is a Christian and has been since 1988. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Leia]

hello. I'm a Baptist. But my church is pretty layed back and we don't have all those silly rules against dancing and stuff...

[Marbleman]

I am a Christian. At one point I was told that this is not so by a 5-point Calvinist , but he told this to many people. Anyway, I have found truth in the story of Jesus Christ - his life and his death. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

My favorite Biblical character is Balaam's donkey. One of my favorite verses of Scripure is 2 Samuel 12:7, "Then Nathan said to David, 'You are the man!'"

[Lord Rocha]

Originally posted by maddog62@Dec 3 2003, 02:46 PM
I am Roman Catholic.
Same here, well my parents are Roman Catholic.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Lord Rocha+Dec 4 2003, 01:55 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lord Rocha @ Dec 4 2003, 01:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-maddog62@Dec 3 2003, 02:46 PM
I am Roman Catholic.
Same here, well my parents are Roman Catholic. [/b][/quote]
Funny, because I don't consider mine to be.

[Leia]

just wondrin, do you believe that anyone not in the catholic church is doomed to eternal damnation? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious about catholic beliefs. I know that's kind of part of the church doctrine, I just wanted to know if most regular catholics also believe it.

[one with many names]

Hello all, glad to see you.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Leia@Dec 4 2003, 02:31 AM
just wondrin, do you believe that anyone not in the catholic church is doomed to eternal damnation? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious about catholic beliefs. I know that's kind of part of the church doctrine, I just wanted to know if most regular catholics also believe it.
I do think that most Catolics believe that thier way is the correct way. I don't think this stops some outsider whom are not catolic from entering his kingdom. I do practice Cathosism but I trust the Bible more then the mouth of a flesh and blood man.Most Catholics trust the word of the church way too much for my liking. Blind faith in a man isn't right with me.

[Marbleman]

A Catholic acquaintance basically told me that I was going to pergatory. But other Catholics have told me that I'll go to heaven and be forgiven for my Protestant ways. But either way I guess I'm not in hell, and that's half the battle, right? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[Lord Rocha]

Originally posted by Leia@Dec 3 2003, 06:31 PM
just wondrin, do you believe that anyone not in the catholic church is doomed to eternal damnation? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious about catholic beliefs. I know that's kind of part of the church doctrine, I just wanted to know if most regular catholics also believe it.
I am hardly a Catholic (just by baptism)

I personally (and no one in my family) dont believe that religious belief (I would replace the term belief with law since the church gives little space for analysis and flexibility).

I would be suprised if someone really believes that.

[Leia]

It seems a bit harsh really. I mean, if you're a Christian, you're a Christian. If you follow the Bible and interpret it for yourself that should be as good as a Priest telling you what it means. I think God should be the one who decides, not any man. I mean, I don't believe you must be a Protestant to go to heaven. So you guys sound like Catholics I could get along with style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Leia@Dec 4 2003, 03:17 AM
It seems a bit harsh really. I mean, if you're a Christian, you're a Christian. If you follow the Bible and interpret it for yourself that should be as good as a Priest telling you what it means. I think God should be the one who decides, not any man. I mean, I don't believe you must be a Protestant to go to heaven. So you guys sound like Catholics I could get along with style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif
I use my brain but sometime the priest can help lead you in the right direction. Some of these guys are sharp. I had a lot of respect for the one who married me and my wife.

[Leia]

Oh no, I'm not saying Priests are wrong or anything. I mean, they're like preachers anyway. But I don't think people should rely only on another person's interpretation of the scripture. Or that the church should teach that only they know the true meaning of scripture.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Leia@Dec 4 2003, 03:30 AM
Oh no, I'm not saying Priests are wrong or anything. I mean, they're like preachers anyway. But I don't think people should rely only on another person's interpretation of the scripture. Or that the church should teach that only they know the true meaning of scripture.
I will agree with you on that.

[maddog62]

All good over here T-Bone no fighting, cursing, or bashing. Not yet at least.

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I think God should be the one who decides, not any man. I mean, I don't believe you must be a Protestant to go to heaven. [/b][/quote]

I don't think God decides at all. I'm of the opinion that he gives us the choice. I try to live as if there is no afterlife though, to make the best of things and not develop a defeatist or apathetic attitude. I feel communication with God is the most important thing; I think he must be quite the character to create such a great, surprising, and sometimes hazardous world.

Three cheers for God - wherever he is, which is everywhere. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[maddog62]

hip hip horay

[Leia]

lol style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif I agree with you Marbleman, a relationship with God is the most important thing. When you have that, everything else follows. And you do ultimately decide for yourself whether or not you're going to Heaven. But what I was trying to say is that men shouldn't make rules as to how to get to Heaven. That's up to God (in my opinion at least)

[Marbleman]

^ I see what you're saying. And yes it is up to God in the end since he runs the wonderful carnival we call the universe.

For the record I love all my Christian brethren and sisteren, except for those smelly 5-point Calvinists (j/k, I love you all too. All fifteen of you.) style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[DarthSolo]

YAY! FRIENDS! I'm a 7th-Day Adventist Christian, but i hesitate to hail to any certain denomination because i believe in JESUS, and that is what is important. The docrine and whatnot can come with your RELATIONSHIP wihte JESUS!!! I hate it when my church gets so caught up with all these docrine's that they forget that we are saved by God's grace. We don't really have to work our way into heaven, you gotta let God do the work.

Anyway, I'd like to use this thread to get to know more about other denominations, because i'm probably gonna be a religion or theology major and i wanna be able to look at things for a non-7th day adventist point of view.

Oh yeah, and to all you believers and lovers of Jesus, me and my friend have decided to start a revolution. We are just gonna live the Great Commision and love people with Jesus' love, and bring them to him when you have the chance! Maybe this thread can be a base and a place of encouragement for that?!?! Thanks guys, God bless

[Justin]

I'm a Christian as well. I also teach Sunday school.

[Obi-Stu]

Hi All


I wasn't going to come here at first - for the same reasons T-Bone gave in his "disclaimer". It seems alright for now though.

I think it doesn't really matter what you believe, but rather how you live your live. Our purpose in this life is to strife to become better people and prepare to return to our Father in Heaven, by the choices we make.

Jesus made this possible and is our Lord and Saviour.

Thank goodness the Lord will be judging us in the next life and he will now the intents of our hearts.

God Bless

[Obidobi]

Originally posted by maddog62@Dec 4 2003, 04:33 AM
All good over here T-Bone no fighting, cursing, or bashing. Not yet at least.
It will be.....It will be.....
Belive me...! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[maddog62]

Come on people lets show him different lets all sing,"Coombyaa".

[Obi-Stu]

"...Oh Lord, Coombyaa"

[maddog62]

Originally posted by goodwije@Dec 4 2003, 02:23 PM
Hello everyone. Thought i would peek my head in.

I am a Unitarian Universalist (Christian) just about the most unusual denomination you can find style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif Quite liberal and open to all faiths, in fact Christians are the minority with only about 10 percent of us nation wide. On any given Sunday i might find myself sitting next to a Jew, Humanist, or even a Wiccan. I know it sounds a little crazy to you guys (which denomination doesn't when you just scratch the surface?) but it is a beautiful and fulfilling place.

Just thought i would share.
But are they all men. Just kidding, I couldn't help it.

[JediKeri]

I grew up in the Mennonite faith, but I don't like going by denominations, so I just say that I'm a Christian with Faith in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[Luvinna]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>marbleman84 Posted on Dec 3 2003, 06:33 PM
I am a Christian. At one point I was told that this is not so...[/b][/quote]
I've had people tell me the same thing. There's a whole thread over at the sw.com message boards dedicated to debating whether Mormons are Christian. ??? I used to go there quite regularly, but stopped a couple of months ago, and I've noticed that I've been happier since. I've decided that it doesn't really matter if others think I'm not Christian. I know I am, and that's what's important.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>DarthSolo Posted on Dec 3 2003, 10:54 PM
I hate it when my church gets so caught up with all these docrine's that they forget that we are saved by God's grace. We don't really have to work our way into heaven, you gotta let God do the work.[/b][/quote]
Not gonna say it... Not gonna say it... :whatsthat:
Oh, what they hey. I believe it's a combination of both. We're saved by grace, after all we can do.
*ducks*

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>DarthSolo Posted on Dec 3 2003, 10:54 PM
Anyway, I'd like to use this thread to get to know more about other denominations...[/b][/quote]
I would so love for this thread to go that direction. I know more about non-Christian religions then I do about other Christian denominations.

[James]

I'm Anglican

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>marbleman84 Posted on Dec 3 2003, 06:33 PM
I am a Christian. At one point I was told that this is not so...[/b][/quote]
I've had people tell me the same thing. There's a whole thread over at the sw.com message boards dedicated to debating whether Mormons are Christian. ??? I used to go there quite regularly, but stopped a couple of months ago, and I've noticed that I've been happier since. I've decided that it doesn't really matter if others think I'm not Christian. I know I am, and that's what's important. [/b][/quote]

I'm am sorry about that, Luv. There are certain people that think that they are God's modern Inquisitors. And I know plenty of people who feel that way about Mormons, actually I have family who are among them. I believe we all tend to put the grace of God in a box and restricted it to ourselves, our own denomination or belief. I doubt God views us through the lens of our church, but rather as individuals.

I don't consider myself a religious person only because I don't follow the tenets of any particular denomination. I follow where I believe God leads me, and that gives me more freedom than ever.

[maddog62]

Anybody a Jahova's Witness?

[Obi-Stu]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I'm am sorry about that, Luv. There are certain people that think that they are God's modern Inquisitors. And I know plenty of people who feel that way about Mormons, actually I have family who are among them. I believe we all tend to put the grace of God in a box and restricted it to ourselves, our own denomination or belief. I doubt God views us through the lens of our church, but rather as individuals. [/b][/quote]


We are actually nice people, once you get to know us... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Obi-Stu]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I doubt God views us through the lens of our church, but rather as individuals. [/b][/quote]


I agree with this, but I feel there is a little more to it than that.

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by Obi-Stu@Dec 5 2003, 01:10 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I doubt God views us through the lens of our church, but rather as individuals.


I agree with this, but I feel there is a little more to it than that. [/b][/quote]
Perhaps, but I think the truth can be curdled by semantics. We all have views that we are anxious to assign ultimate truth to, myself included. Its a human quirk. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Just a few minutes ago I got through with a conversation among a Calvinist and an Open Theist. We were debating whether or not God is responsible for gratuitous evil and whether we accept truth or God makes truth "irresistable" to an elect few. We closed the discussion with a prayer and I mentioned the one thing that unites all Christians: thankfulness for God's gift of grace and the desire to be more like Jesus Christ. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif

[Obi-Stu]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps, but I think the truth can be curdled by semantics. We all have views that we are anxious to assign ultimate truth to, myself included. Its a human quirk. [/b][/quote]

Granted


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I mentioned the one thing that unites all Christians: thankfulness for God's gift of grace and the desire to be more like Jesus Christ. [/b][/quote]

Amen

[Siri Ruane]

Originally posted by Leia@Dec 3 2003, 09:31 PM
just wondrin, do you believe that anyone not in the catholic church is doomed to eternal damnation? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious about catholic beliefs. I know that's kind of part of the church doctrine, I just wanted to know if most regular catholics also believe it.
I'm late as always, but here's my two cents.

I believe its not your religion that gets you to heaven nor just being your baptised. What if (i don't know for sure) say Marylon Manson, Hitler, or Michael Jackson were baptised as kids? So God forgets all their past actions and lets them into heaven because they were saved at infancy? All Christian baptisms do the same thing. In the Catholic church its known as the forgivness of "original sin" ; the sin that was passed down to us from Adam and Eve. Our souls are then perfected, but we still have the likeness for actual sin: the type of sin we commit ourselves with own will.

*So we can commit these sins with our own will, knowings its wrong, knowing it hurts God, but knowing that we don't have to worry about it because no matter how much we sin we're going to heaven anyway?*

Cradle Catholics, Baptists or any other cradled religious think alike. You were brought up by it, it was drilled into your head that this was right and this was wrong.

*So what if Catholic isn't a religon instituted by God at all... I wouldn't know that because I was always taught that it was. So is God going to condem me for believing what I thought and was taught was right?*

Am I making sense?

[Leia]

Yes, but I think you're a little confused. It is true that once you are saved, you cannot become "unsaved." But just because you are baptised does not mean you are saved. Usually people get baptised because they know in their hearts they are already saved, not to become saved... So the example with Hitler doesn't work. Obviously Hitler was never saved in the first place even if he'd been baptised (I don't know if he was or not...) If you have a relationship with God, you don't go out committing sins left and right because you're automatically forgiven... People who are truly in a relationship with God still commit sins, but they're repentent about it. I doubt very much that Hitler was repentent to anybody... And if you're in a relationship with God, I don't think you'd even have the desire to go out and massacre a race of people! But if you're saved and you do commit an awful crime, you can't be kicked out of heaven because of it... I know it is confusing. But if you think of King David, he was a very righteous man (God said so) but he still commited adultery and killed... People make mistakes. You only get the forgiveness if you're truly repentent. Obviously if David had not been in a relationship with God, he would have had a completely different attitude about commiting the sins and would probably have gone on commiting them...

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If you have a relationship with God, you don't go out committing sins left and right because you're automatically forgiven... People who are truly in a relationship with God still commit sins, but they're repentent about it.[/b][/quote]

Absolutely. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

As for Dave, I think he got off the hook to easily. He may have been repentant, but it took him two years after his affair/murder to even realize how far he had fallen. Oh well - God knew his heart. Even so I wouldn't have invited that sheep herder to my Christmas party.

[Siri Ruane]

But what if Hitler had a relationship with God as a child? I'm only 14 now, so if in 20 years I try to take over the world, and desire to go out and massacre a race of people does that mean I'm not saved now since I obviously wont be then?

[masterplan]

Time to chime.

I'm 29 and was raised Roman Catholic. I went to Catholic school and was an alter server for 14 years.

Within the past 10 years I've begun to question my faith. Not just mine, but everyone's.

Where I'm at right now is that I firmly believe there is a God. I believe this God does not intervene in our lives for better or worse.

On the matter of Jesus, I believe firmly that he existed and did many great things, but of late I am torn as to whether or not I beleive he is the son of God. A crisis of faith, I know, but that's where I'm at right now.

When I look at the fact that world religions break down roughly as follows:
Christianity 33%
Hinduism 15%
Islam 22%
Non-Religious 14%
Buddist 6%
Chinese Traditional 4%
Other 6%

All told this means that 67% of the world's population does not worship Jesus as our Savior.

Can you see why after 29 years of Catholisism, one can have a crisis of faith ?

If anyone thinks this post is improper for this thread, just tell me, I'll gladly remove it. Thanks.

[Siri Ruane]

Originally posted by masterplan@Dec 5 2003, 02:16 PM
When I look at the fact that world religions break down roughly as follows:
Christianity 33%
Hinduism 15%
Islam 22%
Non-Religious 14%
Buddist 6%
Chinese Traditional 4%
Other 6%

All told this means that 67% of the world's population does not worship Jesus as our Savior.
Just a thought... what percentage does God, (I'm guesing the Father?) that you believe in, get?

Jesus had to be crucified, and if he was crucified then he obviously wasn't belived to be God or loved by the people who crucified him. So as soon as the tennis shoe is invented and we're are a bit more civilized, desendents of these people believe that he's Christ?

I don't think there will ever be a time on earth when everyone will agree on one matter. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Luvinna]

Originally posted by Siri Ruane@Dec 5 2003, 11:59 AM
But what if Hitler had a relationship with God as a child? I'm only 14 now, so if in 20 years I try to take over the world, and desire to go out and massacre a race of people does that mean I'm not saved now since I obviously wont be then?
I don't know if this is quite what you're looking for, Siri, but it's a great explaination of what I think it means to be saved. It's from a talk that was given in my church's General Conference several years ago, and it's become one of my favorite talks.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Relying upon the totality of Bible teachings and upon clarifications received through modern revelation, we testify that being cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement is conditioned upon the individual sinner’s faith, which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37-38). “Verily, verily, I say unto thee,” Jesus taught, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5; see also Mark 16:16; Acts 2:37-38). Believers who have had this required rebirth at the hands of those having authority have already been saved from sin conditionally, but they will not be saved finally until they have completed their mortal probation with the required continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.

Some Christians accuse Latter-day Saints who give this answer of denying the grace of God through claiming they can earn their own salvation. We answer this accusation with the words of two Book of Mormon prophets. Nephi taught, “For we labor diligently … to persuade our children … to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32).

We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36-37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20-22).

The question of whether a person has been saved is sometimes phrased in terms of whether that person has been “born again.” Being “born again” is a familiar reference in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. As noted earlier, Jesus taught that except a man was “born again” (John 3:3), of water and of the Spirit, he could not enter into the kingdom of God (see John 3:5). The Book of Mormon has many teachings about the necessity of being “born again” or “born of God” (Mosiah 27:25; see Mosiah 27:24-26; Alma 36:24, 26; Moses 6:59). As we understand these scriptures, our answer to whether we have been born again is clearly “yes.” We were born again when we entered into a covenant relationship with our Savior by being born of water and of the Spirit and by taking upon us the name of Jesus Christ. We can renew that rebirth each Sabbath when we partake of the sacrament.

Latter-day Saints affirm that those who have been born again in this way are spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Jesus Christ (see Mosiah 5:7; Mosiah 15:9-13; Mosiah 27:25). Nevertheless, in order to realize the intended blessings of this born-again status, we must still keep our covenants and endure to the end. In the meantime, through the grace of God, we have been born again as new creatures with new spiritual parentage and the prospects of a glorious inheritance.

Dallin H. Oaks, “Have You Been Saved?” Ensign, May 1998, 55[/b][/quote]
So, in my church, we believe that being saved isn't a one-time occurance, and if you mess up once, you're out. Being saved is conditional upon one's faithfulness, obedience and repenting when mistakes are made. Granted, murder is probably the hardest sin to repent of, but I do believe it is possible to repent of even that. (Note: that last sentance is my opinion only, and not church doctrine.)

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by goodwije@Dec 6 2003, 07:48 AM
Much of his early writtings are written from a psuedo-christian point of view.
Which he used to mask his atheism and psychotic belief in his own divinity. He warped Christian teachings to his own purposes in order to seduce the German masses not to condemn or infringe upon his insane path of conquest, destruction and genocide. Hitler, while possibly baptized a Christian, was completely and utterly an anarchist (no, not Antichrist; he may have been that, but that's not my point) and any use of bibical language in his early writings are taken out of the original textual and historical context and twisted to meet his personal anti-Semetic biases and hatred.

There are those who would argue that Hitler was indeed an Anti-Christ, and what he did during his rule certainly would seem to justify such a claim, but from my perspective, such figures would not so easily be defeated, nor would they take their own life (just my opinion). No, Hitler was just a warped, deranged, twisted, psychotic individual who will forever be remembered as one of the worst human beings in the history of civilization.

Now, getting that out of the way:

Hi! I'm a Presbyterian. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

~JTS

[maddog62]

He may have been a secret follower of the ancient Germainian/Aryen religon believing in Oden and Thor. He use Aryen symbols all over the German army.

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by maddog62@Dec 6 2003, 09:14 AM
He may have been a secret follower of the ancient Germainian/Aryen religon believing in Oden and Thor. He use Aryen symbols all over the German army.
He obviously used that belief in "the superiority of the Aryan race" to gather a lot of popularity, but when it comes down to it, Hitler was only ever doing whatever garnered him more power.

Let's just stick to "he was a monster, he's in Hell".

~JTS

[maddog62]

Originally posted by JamesTSkywalker+Dec 6 2003, 05:33 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JamesTSkywalker @ Dec 6 2003, 05:33 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-maddog62@Dec 6 2003, 09:14 AM
He may have been a secret follower of the ancient Germainian/Aryen religon believing in Oden and Thor. He use Aryen symbols all over the German army.
He obviously used that belief in "the superiority of the Aryan race" to gather a lot of popularity, but when it comes down to it, Hitler was only ever doing whatever garnered him more power.

Let's just stick to "he was a monster, he's in Hell".

~JTS [/b][/quote]
Absolutly

[Leia]

Originally posted by Siri Ruane@Dec 5 2003, 01:59 PM
But what if Hitler had a relationship with God as a child? I'm only 14 now, so if in 20 years I try to take over the world, and desire to go out and massacre a race of people does that mean I'm not saved now since I obviously wont be then?
If he'd been in a true relationship with God, he would not have done those things. There's no use in debating how it would have been if he'd been a true Christian and had done those things, because he was not a true Christian! He could have pretended to be one (many people do) but he wasn't. If he had been, there never would have been a holocaust.(unless of course, some other crazy person had the same idea...)

And yeah, if you were going to go out and massacre a race of people 20 years from now, you wouldn't be saved then and you wouldn't be saved now. But... you're not going to do that! Don't worry so much about it style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[The Prism]

Originally posted by masterplan@Dec 5 2003, 02:16 PM
When I look at the fact that world religions break down roughly as follows:
Christianity 33%
Hinduism 15%
Islam 22%
Non-Religious 14%
Buddist 6%
Chinese Traditional 4%
Other 6%
Where are the Jewish folks?

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by The Prism+Dec 6 2003, 09:43 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(The Prism @ Dec 6 2003, 09:43 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-masterplan@Dec 5 2003, 02:16 PM
When I look at the fact that world religions break down roughly as follows:
Christianity 33%
Hinduism 15%
Islam 22%
Non-Religious 14%
Buddist 6%
Chinese Traditional 4%
Other 6%
Where are the Jewish folks? [/b][/quote]
Unfortunately, Judaism has fallen off the map as a "major world religion." The only country in the world today with a majority population that adheres to the beliefs of Judaism is the state of Israel.

It would most likely fall under "Other 6%".

~JTS

[DarthSolo]

Originally posted by Luvinna@Dec 4 2003, 02:55 PM


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>DarthSolo Posted on Dec 3 2003, 10:54 PM
I hate it when my church gets so caught up with all these docrine's that they forget that we are saved by God's grace. We don't really have to work our way into heaven, you gotta let God do the work.
Not gonna say it... Not gonna say it... :whatsthat:
Oh, what they hey. I believe it's a combination of both. We're saved by grace, after all we can do.
*ducks*

[/b][/quote]
ah yes, it is indeed a combo of both, but grace comes first. you cannot work your way into heaven, you must accept God's grace. but, after that, if you just say, im saved woohoo now i can do what i jolly well please, you will not be keeping a relationship with God, and in that sense you will be unsaved. It isnt God saying "you've screwed up waaaay too much for my liking, you aint comin to heaven." no, its you neglecting your relationship with God. any relationship must be worked at for it to survive. that's where works comes in.

[James T. Skywalker]

Quick question about that U.S. survey of religion:

Are LDS members included in the figures for Christianity/Protestantism?

~JTS

[masterplan]

Originally posted by JamesTSkywalker+Dec 7 2003, 01:22 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JamesTSkywalker @ Dec 7 2003, 01:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> Originally posted by The Prism@Dec 6 2003, 09:43 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-masterplan@Dec 5 2003, 02:16 PM
When I look at the fact that world religions break down roughly as follows:
Christianity 33%
Hinduism 15%
Islam 22%
Non-Religious 14%
Buddist 6%
Chinese Traditional 4%
Other 6%
Where are the Jewish folks?
Unfortunately, Judaism has fallen off the map as a "major world religion." The only country in the world today with a majority population that adheres to the beliefs of Judaism is the state of Israel.

It would most likely fall under "Other 6%".

~JTS [/b][/quote]
100% correct. There's a million or so in the states, and then there's Israel.
That's about it. I have the numbers somewhere, but nowhere handy.

[Siri Ruane]

Originally posted by Leia+Dec 6 2003, 11:42 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leia @ Dec 6 2003, 11:42 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Siri Ruane@Dec 5 2003, 01:59 PM
But what if Hitler had a relationship with God as a child? I'm only 14 now, so if in 20 years I try to take over the world, and desire to go out and massacre a race of people does that mean I'm not saved now since I obviously wont be then?
If he'd been in a true relationship with God, he would not have done those things. There's no use in debating how it would have been if he'd been a true Christian and had done those things, because he was not a true Christian! He could have pretended to be one (many people do) but he wasn't. If he had been, there never would have been a holocaust.(unless of course, some other crazy person had the same idea...)

And yeah, if you were going to go out and massacre a race of people 20 years from now, you wouldn't be saved then and you wouldn't be saved now. But... you're not going to do that! Don't worry so much about it style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif [/b][/quote]
Okay, we're all Star Wars fans... so what about the analogy of Anakin Skywalker's journey through good and evil? He started out as a good fellow, but changed his mind and was bad a while, then realized he was jerk, repented, and now he's pretty blue ghost and lives happily ever after. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[James T. Skywalker]

Coming from a conservative Protestant Christian faith group, I personally don't see them fitting into that catagory.

I don't want to start an LDS debate or anything, but I don't see them as part of the Protestant affiliated churches within the Christian teachings. If there are to be considered a part of the Christian Church, they should be considered an entity unto themselves (as there are distinctions between Catholic and Protestant and Orthodox and so on, the Mormon beliefs would be a fourth sub-catagory).

Just my opinion.

~JTS

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>although there are certainly aspects of almost every religion i find rewarding and inspiring, it does not mean i believe all these faiths are "true". Every person has a right and ability to whorship as they see fit. You do not have to believe in what Mormons do in order to show them respect and dignity, and honor their wishes to be considered as a Christian Denomination. I have several friends who are Mormon, and i find they have a lot to offer in their unique perspective. [/b][/quote]

That is similar to my perspective. I believe in absolutes, I believe the truth is out there, but I don't believe we as humans can have all the answers. We are given sufficient knowledge "so that all men are without excuse."

EDIT: and ladies, as well. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Gazelle]

Originally posted by goodwije@Dec 7 2003, 09:49 PM
they consider Mormons to be a conservative Protestant Christian faith group.
It is difficult not to comment on this, and I have no wish to cause a debate or any upset, but it is not reasonable to consider the Mormons to be a conservative Christian faith group.

Unlike the rest of Protestantism, they have another prophet whom they follow, their own slightly different version of the Bible and additional "faith" books which they consider authoritative. Of course denominations are different and usually have a good respect for one another. But their differences are often minor, and usually have something to do with the style of service and church government. LDS have a different set of doctrinal books. That makes them fundamentally at odds with Protestantism and, certainly in Britain, they are considered a cult group.

I hope I haven't caused any offence with my comments and I'm sure Mormons are fabulous people, but it is hardly just another denomination of Christianity.

[DarthSolo]

Id like to consider the root word of Chritian-Christ. I think the deffinition of Christianity is believing in Christ Jesus. I dont know much about Mormons but i am pretty sure they believe in Jeus. And i think protestant is basically anything that isnt catholic right? the 7th day adventist church (to which i belong) believes that Ellen G. White was a prophet. (im torn about her) We are still generally considered christians. many denominations of christianity have different practices and beliefs, but if they believe in Christ, i think they are christians.

[James T. Skywalker]

Oh, geez I didn't want my comments to steer the thread down this direction.

I apologize.

~JTS

[DarthSolo]

yeah, i also appologize.

[Gazelle]

Originally posted by DarthSolo@Dec 8 2003, 04:47 AM
many denominations of christianity have different practices and beliefs, but if they believe in Christ, i think they are christians.
I have many Muslim friends. I can tell you that they most certainly believe in Jesus. But they aren't Christians. It is not so much whether people believe in or respect the teachings of Jesus; but rather WHO people believe Jesus is.

I believe He is "my Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and have put my trust in all that He has done on the cross. Those truths have changed my life and now I live (and aspire to live) a different life with the help of the Holy Spirit who, by God's grace, lives on the inside of me.

These things make me a Christian. His love for me; His death for me; and my understanding of who He truly is.

[Gazelle]

I was not wishing to be offensive at all, and I am sorry if I have upset you goodwije. I was merely pointing out what the Bible explicitly states, and that if we follow the "if Jesus is in there somewhere it is Christian" idea then Muslims are Christians. Clearly, they aren't!

Anyway, we agreed not to have a debate thread so please accept my apology and let's not pursue this. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[T-bone]

Religion and tolerance should go hand in hand, I believe.

[Luvinna]

Man! Now I'm wishing I had gotten online yesterday.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>QUOTE (JamesTSkywalker @ Dec 7 2003, 11:57 AM)
Quick question about that U.S. survey of religion:

Are LDS members included in the figures for Christianity/Protestantism?

~JTS* [/b][/quote]
Yes it must, because there are certainly more than 500,000 Mormons in the US. [/b][/quote]
The report in General Conference back in April placed world-wide LDS church membership at over 11.7 million. And it seems to me that it was only about 5-10 years ago that we passed the mark of having more members outside the US than inside. So, I'd say there's well over 500,000 members of the LDS faith in the US. Probably more along the lines of several million.

Just a quick comment on the "what makes a Christian" comment... It was brought up that Muslims believe in Christ, but if I'm not mistaken, they do not believe he is the Son of God. Same with some Jews. They consider him to be a great prophet, but nothing more. I think what makes someone a Christian is that they believe Christ is the Son of God and that it's is because of his Atonement, death and resurrection that we can attain salvation and exaltation. Just another viewpoint.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by T'bone@Dec 8 2003, 04:15 PM
Religion and tolerance should go hand in hand, I believe.
Some religions don't Tolerate you.

[The Prism]

I've never fully understood why Muslims and Christians are so separated the way they are. I understand that Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet and not the son of God, and that's where all or most of the differences come from. What I'm saying is couldn't there be a group of people that believe Jesus was Christ AS WELL AS Muhammad being the last great prophet?? Maybe someone who knows more about Islam than I do (which isn't hard) can answer this for me.

[Jediwan]

Well think about it. Our religions are totally different, for example look at 911. You don 't see christians suicide bombing other people. Muslims tend to believe that America is of the devil and must be destroyed. We Christians believe that everyone is loved by God and it is their actions that send them to hell. Anyway I'm of the Brethren in Christ denomination. If you have any questions of private questions just pm me. See ya all.

[Gazelle]

Originally posted by Luvinna@Dec 8 2003, 04:45 PM

Just a quick comment on the "what makes a Christian" comment... It was brought up that Muslims believe in Christ, but if I'm not mistaken, they do not believe he is the Son of God. Same with some Jews. They consider him to be a great prophet, but nothing more. I think what makes someone a Christian is that they believe Christ is the Son of God and that it's is because of his Atonement, death and resurrection that we can attain salvation and exaltation. Just another viewpoint.
Yes, absolutely. And that He is the last and final revelation of God (Hebrews 1:1-3).

[flo fett]

Originally posted by Jediwan2000@Dec 8 2003, 08:22 PM
Well think about it. Our religions are totally different, for example look at 911. You don 't see christians suicide bombing other people. Muslims tend to believe that America is of the devil and must be destroyed. We Christians believe that everyone is loved by God and it is their actions that send them to hell. Anyway I'm of the Brethren in Christ denomination. If you have any questions of private questions just pm me. See ya all.
*Sigh*
What?
A sweeping generalisation I would say. Muslims don't tend to believe that America is the devil. Muslim Fanatics might believe this. Ordinary people don't. I think your comments are particularly unhelpful and offensive in a time when stirring up religious intolerence is not needed. Do you actually know any Muslims?

[Gazelle]

Originally posted by flo fett@Dec 8 2003, 08:40 PM

What?
A sweeping generalisation I would say. Muslims don't tend to believe that America is the devil. Muslim Fanatics might believe this. Ordinary people don't. I think your comments are particularly unhelpful and offensive in a time when stirring up religious intolerence is not needed. Do you actually know any Muslims?
I couldn't agree more. I know a number of Muslims and have had lengthy discussions with them, especially about terrorism and the Iraq war.

I found them all to be very pleasant, God-fearing people, none of which had any desire to kill anyone.

To accuse Muslims of this is sheer and stark racism.

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>You don 't see christians suicide bombing other people. [/b][/quote]
Perhaps, but you do see people that claim to be Christians who kill abortion doctors. So what I see here is a double standard. Islam is a peaceful religion, and just because some who call themselves Muslims perform terrorist actions does not condemn the group.

[flo fett]

exactly! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Gazelle]

Originally posted by goodwije@Dec 8 2003, 10:28 PM
I personally do not believe in original sin, and the need to be "saved".
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif I trust one day you will Goodwije.

[Ochy]

i believe that abortion is wrong but i dont belive that killing the doctors that do it is right either, because when you do that then you are at the exact same level as those doctors even though they believe that they are much better then the abortion doctors they have sunk to the exact same level.

and also about the muslims, if all of them believe that if you kill yourself while killing others is the only way into heaven than something is wrong with the religion.

[Blizzard]

No no no no no... we are not discussing abortion and dissing religions. Please change the subject.

[Gazelle]

Thank you Blizzard. This was supposed to be a place for genuine Christians to meet and encourage one another!

[Ochy]

im fine with that

[Gazelle]

Goodwije, you're a good poster and a thoughtful person. I am sure if I met you in "real life" I would get on well with you. But I am still allowed to disagree with your comments.

I would lay down my life for Jesus Christ. I would rather die than speak ill of Him. Please don't expect me to be less than passionate about my faith. I mean't no offence to you whatsoever. But I will defend what I consider to be the Apostolic faith and message.

I'm sorry goodwije.

[Luvinna]

goodwije<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I personally do not believe in original sin, and the need to be "saved". [/b][/quote]
I don't believe in original sin, either. But I do believe that I need to be saved from my own sins and that's where Christ comes into my life. "We believe that man will be punished for his own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." (Articles of Faith 1:2)

[Leia]

Originally posted by Jediwan2000@Dec 8 2003, 03:22 PM
Well think about it. Our religions are totally different, for example look at 911. You don 't see christians suicide bombing other people.
ummm, ever heard of the Crusades? Or the Spanish Inquisition? The people who did those things were extremists, and (I believe) not true muslims at all. They were just using a veneer of religiosity to excuse their actions

[masterplan]

Originally posted by Luvinna@Dec 8 2003, 09:39 PM
goodwije<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I personally do not believe in original sin, and the need to be "saved".
I don't believe in original sin, either. But I do believe that I need to be saved from my own sins and that's where Christ comes into my life. "We believe that man will be punished for his own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." (Articles of Faith 1:2) [/b][/quote]
I believe in being a good person and doing on to others as you'd have them do unto you...follow that and it matters little what your faith is. Salvation will be yours. Whatever awaits us in the great beyond will be what you deserve depending on how you live your life.
Whether you believe in Christ or not, it was he who simplified the commandments into "do unto others...".

[Gazelle]

Masterplan, what I deserve is judgment. I can't earn my place in heaven. I am too bad and sinful. Thankfully, the message of the Bible is that there is a Saviour, Jesus, and that all who follow Him can be forgiven.

[Luvinna]

While I believe that we can't work our way into heaven, it does say in the bible that we will be judged according to our works (1 Peter 1:17, Rev 20:12-13). That's how grace and works go hand in hand. It's through the grace of Christ that we are allowed to enter the presence of our Heavenly Father again, but it's our works that determine our reward (ie: the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-20). If a person isn't willing to atleast try to live the way Christ would have them live, and do the things he asked them to do, then their reward will not be as great as someone who did. And what of all those people throughout history who never had the oportunity to hear of Christ, and yet were good people? I believe that even they will receive a reward in heaven for their good works.

[maddog62]

Miss Flo Fett, you are quite the hottie.

[Leia]

I don't think you're in the right thread there...

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>And what of all those people throughout history who never had the oportunity to hear of Christ, and yet were good people? I believe that even they will receive a reward in heaven for their good works. [/b][/quote]

Not to mention the people that do not have the right conception of who he is because of human error or other interferences. The only "unforgivable sin" is, according to Jesus, thwarting the Holy Spirit. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Matthew 12:32 - And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. [/b][/quote]
The rest may be forgiven if one accepts God's gift. But God is graceful and i believe he gives opportunities for salvation to everyone. I think the journey is what is important. Seek and you will find. I have more respect for an honest person in search or truth than i do for a pompous regular in church who doesn't think and is there merely for tradition. Who is to say one is going to hell and the other to heaven? Not you; not I. God will judge the heart. That's his job. . . along with hopefully smiting my enemies. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Jediwan]

Hey guys!! I'm just wondering do we want to start like a bible study here? Just pm me if you think so and we can decide on a time. Rember Jesus is the truth and the light. Gotta go.

[Ochy]

i dont know if that is a good idea, some people would be offended and things like that, but if you do start something then PM me or something like that.

[Jediwan]

Okay I think it's a good idea.

[Ochy]

just you might want to check with tbone before you do anything.

[Jediwan]

Heads up I'll probably be starting a bible study thread if it's okay with Blizzard. If you want to join the study pm me and we can discuss a time for it.

[Ochy]

i'll join when it comes up.

[T-bone]

I told him that I'd rather it be on a religion board as this is really supposed to be a place for Star Wars discussion but if he really wants to and Blizz says OK then I say start a new thread for it and keep in mind that it's a STUDY and not a DEBATE thread.

[Ochy]

ok, jediwan, you want to make it, once we get to talk to blizz?

[Luvinna]

Originally posted by Jediwan2000@Dec 10 2003, 11:38 AM
Heads up I'll probably be starting a bible study thread if it's okay with Blizzard. If you want to join the study pm me and we can discuss a time for it.
Why does it have to be at a specific time? There are people from all over the world here, and there probably won't be one time that's good for everyone who'd like to participate. Why not just have it an on-going study for any time of the day? People can chime in when they can.

[Ochy]

yeah i can only be on the comp for a little while each day if at all.

[Jediwan]

Luvinna's going to give me her adress for her message board site because Blizzard doesn't want to have the bible study at GS.

[Ochy]

ok just pass it along to me once you get it.

[T-bone]

i back Blizzee on that.
nothing against it in particular but this bandwidth here is supposed to be for a star wars discussion board, right?
no offense at all.

[Ochy]

yeah, i agree with you tbone, and it'll probably get lost pretty quickly if we do it here too.

[Jediwan]

True.

[Luvinna]

Come one, come all (http://www.invisionfree.com/forums/the_ramblin_realm) if you're interested in this bible study. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif I'm going to give the bible study it's own forum, and make Jediwan the mod. The forum's not set up yet, but you can at least come register and look around if you want. Hope to see you all there!

[Luvinna]

Hiya guys! Just a thought. Let me know if you don't get the e-mail validation for my board. I'm not entirely sure it's sending them out. ??? Just send me a PM or drop a note in here. Thanks!

[Leia]

I didn't get an e-mail back

[Ochy]

i just joined so im waitin for mine.

[Luvinna]

I turned the email verification off yesterday afternoon, Kellar, so you shouldn't have to wait for one before you can post. If you're "imackyer," you're good to go. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Leia, I'll manually approve you, so you should be good, too.

[Leia]

okies style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Jediwan]

Heads up everyone I got the bible study going so go sign up on Luvinna's website.

[Luvinna]

And the forum is now open. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Go here: http://s1.invisionfree.com/forums/the_ramblin_realm

[Jediwan]

Come all to the bible study at Luvinna's website. PM her for directions.

[Luvinna]

Or click the link in my sig. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Emerita]

I was born and raised a Presbyterian until 1988. I left that church and faith for personal reasons. With the experience in dealing with churches over the past 35 years has led me to just be by myself and have my own beliefs. I was told by my minister, in the church I was raised in, that I would burn in hell if I didn't go to church and believe in God the way Christians do. I told him that He will be judged the way he treats his fellow man and that we are all being tested everyday. He told me I was crazy.....

I believe that all of us have the right to believe in what we want to whether we are Christians, Catholic, Buddist,Pagan or what ever. I love humanity for the differences we all have. I don't care about race, religion, or the size anyone is. I look ...or read as in here, at each person for the goodness that is in their hearts. I am happy in my self and I am happy that everyone here is happy in their beliefs......

[Soontir Solo]

Well I've been a Baptist since I was around 11.

[Erick Landrider]

Originally posted by Leia@Dec 3 2003, 06:51 PM
hello. I'm a Baptist. But my church is pretty layed back and we don't have all those silly rules against dancing and stuff...
I'm a Primitive Baptist, I actually know a one of our churches in Virginia ( I chekced your profile). I might have to check with one of our preachers about that.

I did quite a bit of thinking a few years back, and I believe that good people will go to Heaven. I just can't see someone like Gahndi going to hell because he wasn't Christian. As for what determines who is 'good' and who isn't, well to quote General Lee "The rest is in God's hands."

[Jediwan]

Me I'm a BIC(Brethren in Christ). We're renovating our church the next few weeks so pray that no one gets hurt.

[Erick Landrider]

Originally posted by Jediwan2000@Feb 18 2004, 01:14 PM
Me I'm a BIC(Brethren in Christ). We're renovating our church the next few weeks so pray that no one gets hurt.
We had to renovate our church too. Last summer before last we had a big meeting and when they got the preachers who visted for the meeting together at the front of the church for a picture, the floor started to...well... bend under their wieght (and no they aren't that big). So we checked in out and saw the the foundation was weak in the floor. We had it checked out and now we have an entirely rebuilt floor with concrete now.

[DarthSolo]

hey, my church is renovating also!

[Jediwan]

How's it going my fellow brothers and sisters?

[Soontir Solo]

I was looking at screenshots for Passion of the Christ and it shows Jesus getting his hands nailed through, not his wrists.

Does anybody else every wonder which one it was? Different people say different things. And the Bible doesn't actually say exactly where they nailed it.

[Master Cephus]

I read this in the entertainment thread for the movie...and I know it's not an argument over there but...

I have to say it really doesn't matter. I mean, he was nailed to a cross and I don't think it would be any different symbolically if he were nailed at his elbows.

This kind of stuff sort of gets to me. Like I said it's not to an arguing point but it irritates me when people argue over pointless things like this.

(This isn't about you either Soontir...you know you got my props!)

[Justin]

In the movie, they also show Jesus carrying the entire cross, which is likely not what happened. Prisoners who were crucified were required to carry the bar that would go vertically on the cross, I think it's called a pentabulum or something like that, but basically it is the horizontal section that is affixed to the main pole, where his hands would be tied and nailed.

They routinely weighed about 110 pounds, so it still was a terrible burden, especially for someone who had been beaten and scourged so severly.

In the bible it describes the nails as being put in the hand, but at the time it was written the wrist was considered to be part of the hand, and it is part of the hand, it's just below the heal of your palm.

[Soontir Solo]

Where does it say hand? I looked through all four gospels and it doesn't say it.

[Luvinna]

I typed "nail" and "hand" into my CD-ROM scripture search and this is all I came up with:

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
(New Testament | John 20:24 - 25)

In any case, I was taught that they put a nail in the palm of his hand, and one in the wrist. But like you said Cephus, it's pointless to argue about semantics. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Soontir Solo]

I was just wondering

[Luvinna]

Sorry, Soontir. I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't try to find out. Only that, to me, it's not that important. I guess I'm just not curious enough to really research it.

[Rojo]

I'm not a christian, but I read somewhere that if you nail thorugh the palm of the hands then the flesh rips under your body weight.

Lovely.

[Handothrawn]

Also not a Christian, but I saw something on general crusifiction once, and they'd nail through the feet and then they'd nail through the wrist because the hand ripped through too easy. And anyway they'd nail you so that you wouldn't be tight to the pole and stiff. They'd do it so you sank down on your feet, and stretch your shoulders and stuff...Then they'd pierce your lung so that you couldn't breath unless you "stood on the nails." So you'd have to push up on the feet-nails to breathe...Painful.

[Soontir Solo]

Thats what I hear too, but the movie does show the hand getting nailed through. But there were ropes used to, around the wrists holding them in place on the cross, maybe those were what was keeping him up there seeing as a nail through the hands would simply rip open the hands.

[RebelRoss0587]

The Passion of the Christ, even if some people didn't like parts of it, is a very well done movie.

[goodwije]

There is some evidence that also suggests hand-centered nailings in crucufixtions in the time of Jesus. They have proved that witht he fett nailed that the hand would not tear out and that the majority of the weight would be on the body. The originl paintings and depictions may have been right all along.

[Soontir Solo]

I don't think we will ever get it figured out whether it was the hands or wrists, unless we find out in heaven of course.

[Jediwan]

You guys keep an eye on the is there a God forum, I have a feeling if we work hard we might have a feew new brothers and sisters.

[Wolfe_13]

<span style="font-family:Optima">I like this new topic area. When I was last here there wasn't this freedom. I like to see it. Unfortunately it looks as if the moderators do not like these conversations...oh well. In reply to soontir solo. I think When he was nailed to the cross it might have been in the wrist. This thought isn't pleasant but if it was possible it might get ripped out if in the hand. If inbetween the bones in the forearm it might stop it from that. I'm not possotive though. I don't think he was nailed throught the elbows because I'm pretty sure that none of Christs bones were broken.</span>

[JediKeri]

Originally posted by Wolfe_13@Mar 8 2004, 07:53 PM
<span style="font-family:Optima">I like this new topic area. When I was last here there wasn't this freedom. I like to see it. Unfortunately it looks as if the moderators do not like these conversations...oh well. In reply to soontir solo. I think When he was nailed to the cross it might have been in the wrist. This thought isn't pleasant but if it was possible it might get ripped out if in the hand. If inbetween the bones in the forearm it might stop it from that. I'm not possotive though. I don't think he was nailed throught the elbows because I'm pretty sure that none of Christs bones were broken.</span>
I'm a former mod. It isn't that they don't like this conversation, it's just they are very wary of those that like to stir up trouble in this kind of thread, so they keep a very close eye on these kinds of threads. Relax. As long as no one starts a fight this thread will be fine.

[Jacen Solo]

I'm new to this thread ... hello, everyone. I'm Luuke Skywalker. I'm your friend!!

It is significant, I feel, that none of Christ's bones were broken. It is a fulfillment of a prophecy given in the book of Exodus, in which the children of Israel were directed that, in their sacrifices, none of the lamb's bones were to be broken. As the things that the children of Israel were required to do were types of Christ (or, in other words, they pointed toward Christ and the time He would offer Himself as the final, supreme sacrifice), the fact that none of Christ's bones were broken is a literal fulfillment of the Law of Moses. Christ said, "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

[Soontir Solo]

Nice to hear that JediKeri. Welcome Luuke!

[Wolfe_13]

Thank you Luuke for clearing that up. I was pretty sure but I couldn't remember where it was.

[Jediwan]

Can you see it coming? are you ready? It's time to expand on this group and work on saving other. I feel it coming. I'm ready.

[Swamprat_Jedi_Knight]

Hello all. I am a Christian, and am a Reformed Baptist.

[Wolfe_13]

As am I, I go to a Fundamental Baptist church....not much difference between the two. One is more based on the five points of Calvanism. Mine believes in about 4.5 of the five.

[hermit31]

Hello everyone, I used to be a christian and then I woke the style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif up!

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

[Angel Starmaster]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif Um, Hermit? Your input is appreciated, but it is a thread about Christianity. I don't think it's up for debate here like in the "Is there a God" thread.

Might wanna lock it down here, friend.

[Blizzard]

Take it somewhere else, Hermit. If you are not Christian do not post here.

[Jediwan]

Please.

[Wolfe_13]

Hermit I don't exactly agree with your opinion...This doesn't mean I'm going to insult you for it so if your going to join in please watch your p's and q's, thanks....One question however: You say you used to be a Christian....I don't see how this is possible. I belive that once a person is saved by putting their faith in Christ alone, admitting they are a sinner and asking Christ to be his Savior they are eternally saved. So in a sum how can you loose your salvation if you are actually saved?

[Wolfe_13]

It is true that if you want to debate us there is the Is there a God thread>>>>

[JediKeri]

Originally posted by Wolfe_13@Mar 29 2004, 01:46 PM
Hermit I don't exactly agree with your opinion...This doesn't mean I'm going to insult you for it so if your going to join in please watch your p's and q's, thanks....One question however: You say you used to be a Christian....I don't see how this is possible. I belive that once a person is saved by putting their faith in Christ alone, admitting they are a sinner and asking Christ to be his Savior they are eternally saved. So in a sum how can you loose your salvation if you are actually saved?
Amen Wolfe

[Marbleman]

I'm not so certain about that Wolfe.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>In my high school days, I worked with an older guy who was perhaps one of the most real Christians I had ever met. I really looked up to him, a very genuine man who truly cared about what was going on with everyone spiritually. I can give numerous stories of how he loved loving other people. I still have a pair of his shoes buried deep in my closet that he gave me without a second thought after I had merely mentioned them.

One day he "went off the deep end," left the state with some woman, and left behind his family and his responsibilities and his cares. Last I heard of him he had turned his back on everything he had previously affirmed and was into all kinds of trouble.

So. . . if he was in fact a Christian, which I believe he was, how could he discard all those principles and his relationship with God? What's the moral of the story? To me, it shows that Christians are fallible humans, capable of falling into the same pitfalls as everyone else, and though God can guide people he cannot give us all the answers. And he cannot make our choices for us. [/b][/quote]

How can it be that we can go from "unsaved" -> "saved" but not "saved" -> "unsaved?" Here's a problem for you - what if this guy (his name was Mike) came back to his family and started life out again just as it had been before and claimed his relationship with God had returned? And suppose that he had a relationship with God prior to his problems but not during, and now he had regained his relationship with God. Was he "saved" during that in between part of his life in God's eyes?

Experience has taught me, right or wrong, to doubt whether or not it is as simple as that.

[Swamprat_Jedi_Knight]

I believe once someone is saved, they are forever. If in fact someone "falls from the faith", and never returns (like our friend Hermit is doing now), they were not truely saved in the first place. Never forget, people can fake being a Christian to the point of becoming a pastor. Altimately you can fool almost anybody, but never God. (There is a great passage I wanted to quote here, but I spent a while looking and can't find it, so if I find it later, I will post it.) Many Christians fall into sin, or a decadent lifestyle, but if they are truly saved they will come out of it, and repent. Man I wish I could find those verses.

[hermit31]

Originally posted by Swamprat_Jedi_Knight@Mar 29 2004, 10:52 PM
I believe once someone is saved, they are forever. If in fact someone "falls from the faith", and never returns (like our friend Hermit is doing now), they were not truely saved in the first place.


You may be correct in this statement. I never saw any reason to be saved to begin with. There is nothing to be saved from. I am now going to stay off of this thread, and leave it to you Christians who are believers.

[Sluggo]

Originally posted by Swamprat_Jedi_Knight@Mar 29 2004, 10:52 PM
I believe once someone is saved, they are forever. If in fact someone "falls from the faith", and never returns (like our friend Hermit is doing now), they were not truely saved in the first place. Never forget, people can fake being a Christian to the point of becoming a pastor. Altimately you can fool almost anybody, but never God. (There is a great passage I wanted to quote here, but I spent a while looking and can't find it, so if I find it later, I will post it.) Many Christians fall into sin, or a decadent lifestyle, but if they are truly saved they will come out of it, and repent. Man I wish I could find those verses.
I don't believe in the same concept of being saved as such that it is forever*, but which verses are you looking for? Maybe I can help you look?





*Let me clarify...I believe that once a person is saved, it will be forever, it just won't happen until the judgment day.

[Soontir Solo]

I think someone can be truly saved but fall away from God later. It seems to happen all the time. Sometime it even happens with preachers. Something terrible happens and they blame God and turn away from him. It happens.

[Marbleman]

Indeed Soontir, and it's not as if their previous relationship with God simply disappears. No matter if they are on hiatus or have permanently removed themselves, it doesn't change the fact that they were once in one achord with God.

[Luvinna]

I tend to agree with Sluggo. I view being saved, in the present tense form, as being conditional upon my obedience. If I'm disobedient and don't repent, I'm not saved. Other ways I understand that I've been saved (like from death through the resurrection) are yet to happen, but I know it will happen.

[JediKeri]

I'll have to looke up the direct quote, but once you accept Jesus as your lord and savior the bible says that no one or thing can take you out of the Father's Hand.

[Swamprat_Jedi_Knight]

I found the verse I wanted to quote. The general context of the verses around it, in fact most of the chapter, are about seeing if you are really saved, and how you can tell if you are. This is just one verse out of John's comentary, so please read the chapter, to get the entire feel to the verse. He was dealing with people leaving the church, and this very question came up, were they really saved or not?, and this is one verse of John's answer... (I John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.) We went though a detailed study through this book, verse by verse, so it make a lot more immediate sence to me, but please read the chapter so you know that I just didn't pull it out of my butt, and twist it to my "view".

[Wolfe_13]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I think someone can be truly saved but fall away from God later. It seems to happen all the time. Sometime it even happens with preachers. Something terrible happens and they blame God and turn away from him. It happens. [/b][/quote]

If this happens I don't think that that person is actually saved. People do screw up...none of us are perfect. I believe that if a persone is actually saved they might screw up a lot but they actually try to fix something because the Holy Spirit convicts them, they don't pin it upon God.

[Blizzard]

[Please don't address members whom I asked not to post in this thread.]

[Jediwan]

A person in my bible study said that some people found under the crust pockets of methane made by micro organisms and that if they rose to the surface earth wouldn't be able to sustain life. Isn't methane flammable, if so earth as we know it would become hell. Also in my aldult Sunday school we are watching these movies about creation and the guy said if all the water would cover the earth again it would only be two inches deep.

[Sluggo]

Could you elaborate a little more?

[goodwije]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

is that an april fools joke?

[Luvinna]

Or maybe that methane will just be put to use when the earth is burned at the Second Coming...

[Tovor]

Cows fart methane all the time, and pastures haven't become death zones yet.

[Jediwan]

Just liitle bits of methane I mean down under the crust they found lots of it. There is only enough water left on Earth to cover it 2 inches.

[Sluggo]

That's a lot of water.

[Jediwan]

No that is little compared to the flood that covered every mountain in the Bible.

[Sluggo]

Yeah, I know. So...does this mean that I need to throw away my belief in God because some video says the Bible was wrong? It seems like a strange thing for a church to be teaching. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[Jediwan]

No they it wasn't saying the Bible is wrong it is looking at the bible then comparing it to the evolution theory and proving the evolution wrong.

[Sluggo]

Oh. Got it. I kind of wish they would play more of that in schools instead of keeping it in church (pending of course the video has good science to back it up). Of course, thanks to the Supreme Court, Darwinism has a stranglehold on modern education. Whether you support Darwinism or camp with the Creationists or are somewhere in between (like yours truely), you gotta admit the other theories of creation don't have a chance. One can't even question the science behind evolution without being labeled a Bible Basher or a religious wack-o.
Rant is done.

[Jediwan]

Sanct renos are done finally.

[Jediwan]

Happy Good Friday.

[Sluggo]

With Good Friday today and Easter right around the corner, I just wanted to publicly express my gratitude to Jesus for atoning for my sins and giving me opportunity to be adopted into his fold.

Anyhoo, Happy Easter, everybody. Eat lots of chocolate and pause for a minute to contemplate your own beliefs and give thanks.

[Soontir Solo]

I just got back from a Protestant Youth Trip to Spain. It was a great trip with probably 200 students there from 10 schools. 3 people from my school got saved, it was amazing. It was an incredible expierence.

I just thank God for allowing me to go and for all that he does for me everyday.

[JediKeri]

Amen, I saw several people come to Christ this morning in chruch, and it's always awsome to watch.

[Soontir Solo]

I remember getting saved. It was quite an expierence. Getting baptized was great as well.

[Jediwan]

I know getting baptized in a -3 degree Celsious lake was fun even though you are frozen solid. And hearing your pastor got leaches on him also helps you warm up.

[Soontir Solo]

Who here believes God has chosen teh exact time of our deaths?

I do

[JediKeri]

*raises hand*

Oh yeah, I belive that. He knows every hair on our Heads. He created and knows everything about us.

[Sluggo]

Me too. I wish I knew myself as well as He does.

[JediKeri]

So do I, but I learn something new everyday.

[Sluggo]

Ditto. From mistakes, mostly. Thank heaven for repentance.

[Jediwan]

Thank God for his son. With out him we would be in deep trouble.

[goodwije]

you guys had some good discussion going earlier please dont let this become a thread for testifying.

[Jediwan]

Oh but it might there future fellow believers out there seeking answers when they are right in front of them.

[CaptainOfTheElite]

i am a christian, and i go to an Evangelical Free Church. i do not drink, do drugs or smoke

[JediKeri]

Originally posted by goodwije@Apr 14 2004, 05:04 PM
you guys had some good discussion going earlier please dont let this become a thread for testifying.
Not Testifing, we're just joyful and glad for what He has done for us. But then again, I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

[Luvinna]

Originally posted by CaptainOfTheElite@Apr 14 2004, 07:10 PM
i am a christian, and i go to an Evangelical Free Church. i do not drink, do drugs or smoke
Is that because it's something your church teaches is bad for you? Or is abstaining from those things just a personal decision you've made? I ask because I've never heard of anyother church that asks its members to stay away from things like alcohol and drugs.

[kopernikuz]

Originally posted by Luvinna+Apr 15 2004, 09:54 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Luvinna @ Apr 15 2004, 09:54 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaptainOfTheElite@Apr 14 2004, 07:10 PM
i am a christian, and i go to an Evangelical Free Church. i do not drink, do drugs or smoke
Is that because it's something your church teaches is bad for you? Or is abstaining from those things just a personal decision you've made? I ask because I've never heard of anyother church that asks its members to stay away from things like alcohol and drugs. [/b][/quote]
Really? You've never heard of a church teaching that drugs and alcohol are dangerous? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif

[JediKeri]

Originally posted by Luvinna+Apr 15 2004, 09:54 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Luvinna @ Apr 15 2004, 09:54 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaptainOfTheElite@Apr 14 2004, 07:10 PM
i am a christian, and i go to an Evangelical Free Church. i do not drink, do drugs or smoke
Is that because it's something your church teaches is bad for you? Or is abstaining from those things just a personal decision you've made? I ask because I've never heard of anyother church that asks its members to stay away from things like alcohol and drugs. [/b][/quote]
Many Baptists are like that.

Although for me...it was a personal choice.

[Luvinna]

Originally posted by kopernikuz@Apr 15 2004, 08:55 AM
Really? You've never heard of a church teaching that drugs and alcohol are dangerous? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif
Well, teaching that they're dangerous and telling people to stay away are kind of different, aren't they? I'm probably not getting my question across right. I mean, in my church, it's highly frowned upon to smoke or drink. For example, if a person wants to get baptized into my church, they have to stop those practices first. Does that clear up my question any?

[Darth Morder]

Originally posted by JediKeri+Apr 16 2004, 12:56 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JediKeri @ Apr 16 2004, 12:56 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> Originally posted by Luvinna@Apr 15 2004, 09:54 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-CaptainOfTheElite@Apr 14 2004, 07:10 PM
i am a christian, and i go to an Evangelical Free Church. i do not drink, do drugs or smoke
Is that because it's something your church teaches is bad for you? Or is abstaining from those things just a personal decision you've made? I ask because I've never heard of anyother church that asks its members to stay away from things like alcohol and drugs.
Many Baptists are like that.

[/b][/quote]
That probably explains why I was shocked to hear that churches don't oppose the use of drugs.

[kopernikuz]

Not really, sorry. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif Maybe I'm missed it... I thought you were saying you'd not heard of a church teaching against it, and now you're saying yours does?

Are you saying you're suprised OTHER churches BESIDES yours do? Maybe that's what I misunderstood... that makes sense.

Our church doesn't specifically preach against them. The Bible is specific about "drunkeness", but not so much on wine itself. You must not get drunk, but you can drink wine. Many argue that, if there's a possiblity of getting drunk, why tempt yourself. That seems valid to me if that's they way someone feels about it, though I don't feel the scriptures are that specific, particularly since the disciples drank wine, but did so "responsibly"...

Smoking isn't really addressed, though it does say to keep the body as a temple and encourages one to not purposfully endanger it... which smoking clearly does. But at the same time, this guideline should also apply to our diets and such... I'm unhealthy because I'm kind of overweight right now and it's not glandular, it's my affinity for fast food... technically this is as dangerous as smoking and therefore should also be considered taboo. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

And drugs... it shouldn't take scripture to show people how stupid this activity is. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Luvinna]

I know that the scriptures counsel against drunkeness, and also about our body being a temple. I think the reason I'm having such a hard time clarifying this is because I'm trying not to say anything that could appear to be misrepresentative of church policies. Maybe what I'm asking is, are there any churches (besides mine) that have any set rules about the use of alcohol, drugs and tabacco? (In my church it goes further than that, but I'll stop with those.)

[kopernikuz]

Originally posted by Luvinna@Apr 15 2004, 10:43 AM
I know that the scriptures counsel against drunkeness, and also about our body being a temple. I think the reason I'm having such a hard time clarifying this is because I'm trying not to say anything that could appear to be misrepresentative of church policies. Maybe what I'm asking is, are there any churches (besides mine) that have any set rules about the use of alcohol, drugs and tabacco? (In my church it goes further than that, but I'll stop with those.)
I gotcha... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Our church has very few "rules" about how you live your life, though it certainly frowns upon and encourages counseling in the areas that go against scripture. But we are non-denominational and don't really have a "No-Smoking" policy, if you know what I mean? We would help a smoker quit, but recognize also that they must do it on their own, with God's help. We would not deny them admittance to our church (though they can't smoke in there... lol).

A raging alcoholic would never be an elder or a deacon or any kind of ministry related person at our church, but they can certainly come and hear the Word and be offered help and counseling to break the addiction. It would not be encouraged or condoned.

How about other churches?

[JediKeri]

It's the same at my chruch. Basically it's how God deals with their addictions and wheather they'll obey or not.

[goodwije]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I've never heard of anyother church that asks its members to stay away from things like alcohol and drugs.[/b][/quote]

Many conservative denominations do so not just the LDS, although i do think the LDS tops the list as the most strident enforcer of those rules.

and even though this is a Christian thread many world religions do as well.

[Fluke Skywalker]

Hi, I'm a Christian and by that I mean a follower of Jesus. My church is called The King's Arms and is part of New Frontiers. It's been interesting reading the discussion about smoking, drinking and drugs. We haven't had any teaching on such things but I know that you cannot be i leadership at our church if you smoke. As for drinking well people fro church regularly meet at a pub called the Pilgrims Progress after our Sunday evening service. Not to get drunk but to to spend more time together (even the church leaders) and build community - a place where we can love each other and those around us since that is what Jesus commanded us to do after loving God. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Tenira]

I myself am an aethiest, except I go to an all-boys Catholic school. It's interesting to see each of your devotion to Jesus and such, but for me... My school is not AS focused, though we are very spiritual. I think there are two different forms of religion; preaching and action. Does anyone agree? Like for instance, I do this program called a Street Retreat, where a group of boys goes out and does a barbecue each morning with saussages and eggs for the homeless of our city. It's qite cathartic and uplifting participating, because you have a sense of doing something for someone elses benefit. And then we laso have the Religion lessons at school, where we learn about scriptures and stuff, although it is interesting to note that the official course name is 'Religion & Ethics'. I find it amazing the difference... My school hardly worships at the chapel, maybe once a month, yet our focus on community is far more than any other school or instutuion I have necountered. Maybe it is because of the Christian Brothers, who started our school, and our following of the Blessed Edmund Rice. I find this much better than the traditional style of religion; going to church and admitting sins, and prayer...

[Fluke Skywalker]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>. I think there are two different forms of religion; preaching and action. Does anyone agree? [/b][/quote]

I'm not sure if they are different kinds of religion but their is certainly a difference and they hve different effects. I think that preaching has got it's place and is ok for anyone who is willing to listen and learn but for some people it's the last thing they want or even need. I certainly don't think that if I start preaching stuff over these forums about what I believe etc that people are suddenly going to start believing the same thing. It may help and encourage some people but for most I thinkwhy should they listen to a guy they don't know. That goes too for people I meet anywhere. But my actions on the other hand are different because I'm sure people will more readily receive me doing something for them and loving them. Certainly there are those who will be suspicious of my motives but I'm sure people will generally respond more to actions rather than being preached at. I think there is a time and a place for both.

[Darth Morder]

I suppose by this you mean Ministry and Evangelism? They're not different religions rather different parts of the one religion. Neither can survive without the other.

[Tenira]

Yeah, that's what I meant, different parts of the one religion. Thanks for the comment Fluke, I'm a bit more open to preaching now. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Wolfe_13]

I have to agree with Morder. I go to a fundamental Baptist Church. We have both in our church. I don't know If I really call what we do a "religion" however. We study the Bible. If studying the Bible is a religion then everyone who studies the Bible and derive a little different opinion of one verse in the whole Bible would have their own Religion.

[goodwije]

well in many ways wolfe they do, there are thousands of denominations in the US alone, some on the whole are very simular, must are very different. Many of the fundamental differences arrive from the interpertaion of just one or two versus.

[Jediwan]

Who here has heard of the Brethren in Christ Churches? Also when you guys were talking about drugs, smoking, alcohol we just recently intervened with a friend of the family who goes to the same church as me. He has changed for the better and it is so uplifting. He and his wife are sort of doing there wedding again because they split up while he was recovering.

[JediKeri]

Nope never heard of Brethern in Christ. Sorry.

[The_Senator_from_Terra]

does anyone believe there is salvation outside the church? I do.


if so, a good portion of people on earth are "condemmed to hell" no matter what they do. I personally can not accept that.

[Luvinna]

Depends on what you mean by "salvation." Mortal salvation (as in resurrection), yes, I believe everyone who lived or will live on the earth will be resurrected. Spiritual salvation, I believe that there are varying levels and that everyone except the most unrighteous (not necessarily the same as the unbelieving) will receive a degree of salvation.

[The_Senator_from_Terra]

what i meant to say is "if not" rather than "if so" but it seems at least Luvinna udnerstood what I meant lol. But yeah it should be "if not" for my post to make sense.

[Tenira]

Hell, heaven, what's the use worrying? All can be changed in time. If you make a mistake now, you can do something good to nullify it.

[The_Senator_from_Terra]

^Agreed

[JediKeri]

Yet Jesus said that we are not saved by works but by Faith.

[Luvinna]

Originally posted by JediKeri@Apr 20 2004, 09:25 AM
Yet Jesus said that we are not saved by works but by Faith.
I believe it's a combination of the two.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. (2 Nephi 25:23)

I don't believe, however, that doing good will automatically nullify the bad you've done. If doing good comes from repentance and a change of heart and wanting to do good rather than evil, that's a different situation.

[Darth Morder]

Originally posted by Luvinna+Apr 21 2004, 02:12 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Luvinna @ Apr 21 2004, 02:12 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-JediKeri@Apr 20 2004, 09:25 AM
Yet Jesus said that we are not saved by works but by Faith.
I believe it's a combination of the two.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. (2 Nephi 25:23)

I don't believe, however, that doing good will automatically nullify the bad you've done. If doing good comes from repentance and a change of heart and wanting to do good rather than evil, that's a different situation. [/b][/quote]
Nephi? I assume as you're a LDS (Mormon) that book is in the book of Mormon as I've never heard of it b4.

[Master Cephus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the ki