The 9/11 & Terrorism Thread

[T-bone]

There's no real meaning for this thread other than to just keep the memory of that day in perspective and remind people about what those jerks did to us on that awful day. It seems many have forgotten recently so...



I got this in the mail today and the caption read:
Some people in our country are losing focus. Perhaps this can remind them of what the scumbags did to us. Please feel free to forward this.



I didn't wanna forward it but I thought I'd post it here. It's a terrible image of some people's last moments but a frightening reminder that we need to really take these terrorists out because they will show no mercy and they are pretty much the equivalent of an insane person. You can't reason with an insane person, you need to restrain and control them before they do more damage to themselves and others.

[maddog62]

I would like to add a small storie. Some of you know that I had a couple of bad days at my job this week.

About 8:30 PM, on Saturday, My partner and myself pulled two inmates off the tier for fighting. When this happence the jail is allerted and officer come down to the Housing unit with Supervisors to cuff and place the inmates in DETENTION.

At this point I order the INMATES cell mate to remove their property from their cell to be inventoried and Boxed up. Next the boxes would be placed into the property room untill the Inmates were released from which ever punishment they receive if any.

At this time the inmates on the tier complied and gathered the suspected inmates property. One of the inmates had his property stuffed inside a steal foot locker that we issue on the housing unit.

When I opened the locker,I noticed that there was a 12"x 18" picture of Osama Bin Laden walking the mountains of Afganastan cut out of an Islamic newspaper. I was stunned, not because the inmate felt that way but because he had the nerve to post that picture in his cell with the knowlege that at any time any officer could search and find this picture. I understand that there is no rules against this practice but I was still outraged.

Now at this time I was not able to think straight, another inmate from the same tier had the nerve to ask me to give him the pictures he had posted. I stood staight up walked over to the tier gate and asked him to clarify what pictures did he want me to give him. (Its not like I would ever give him someones picture of Dion Sanders or Ashante) I asked him a second time to clarify this to me to give him a chance to back out of the territory he was reaching. He was definatly in my mine field and getting close to a mine.
He returned and said I want all of them.

I turned and looked once again at the picture on the locker starring right at me and told him, " do you want to be my MOTHER JUMPING enemy for the rest of your life?" He said to me, " What do you mean by that?" I said, "what the JUMP do you think I mean?" I then said, get the JUMP out of my face. this act was like crapping on my floor and the rubbing my nose in it.

Shortly after the tier was locked down for the night and also to take count.
I packed up both of the fighting inmates propert but couldn't think. I then precieded to take the newspaper picture and draw cross hairs (rifle scope view) on each of the seperate heads on this spaced out collage and in my hand writing wrote kill on each body. On the top of the picture I wrote COWARD and RIP. I wrapped it up up ina ball walked down the tier and gave it to him through the bars. He started to yell something but I didn't listen. I hear, all day threats on the President and hate reteric of our country and anti-support for the war. I never loose it like that. I never usually care but this made me sick to my stomach. I go out of my way, expecially the last couple of weeks with Ramadan to not push my views and be trampled with their rights to to disrespect us infedels.

I am now scared I may get in trouble for it.

[James]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/grouphug.gif

The only way terrorism can be stopped is to be united.

God bless you all.

[T-bone]

That's a good story. I probably would have taken the pics and threw em out or something and when he asked say, "What pics?"

Keep an eye on that clown, dude.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by T'bone@Nov 26 2003, 02:47 AM
That's a good story. I probably would have taken the pics and threw em out or something and when he asked say, "What pics?"

Keep an eye on that clown, dude.
That is just the begining but I wount tell you here to say on topic. Maybe some where else another day.

[T-bone]

We have a friend who does what you do in the juvenile place down in Trenton - same job. ROUGH work, man. Good luck in there.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by T'bone@Nov 26 2003, 02:51 AM
We have a friend who does what you do in the juvenile place down in Trenton - same job. ROUGH work, man. Good luck in there.
He has a slightly more stressfull job.

[Vibroblade]

I'll never forget, if for no other reason, than because it is my birthday. To say the least, it has dampened my enjoyment of the day.....

I will never forget ( or forgive ).......If that makes me a bad person, so be it.

[Tovor]

Not forgiving Osama or the Taliban for supporting him, or any and all terrorists, does not make you a bad person. It makes you a realist. People who want to kill us don't want our forgiveness anyway, so to hell with them.

[Vibroblade]

amen Tovor.

[T-bone]

I'm sorry but I cannot forgive bin laden or his little group, nor do they want our forgiveness.

[goodwije]

I forgive for myself, not for him. Like i said that is just me, i do not expect others to agree or maybe even understand.

[James]

Originally posted by T'bone@Nov 26 2003, 06:51 PM
I'm sorry but I cannot forgive bin laden or his little group, nor do they want our forgiveness.
agree

[Dark Skywalker 9]

Originally posted by T'bone@Nov 26 2003, 12:51 AM
I'm sorry but I cannot forgive bin laden or his little group, nor do they want our forgiveness.
Straight. No forgiveness for those murderers.

[spaceman2386]

go USA style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/grouphug.gif

[maddog62]

Originally posted by goodwije@Nov 26 2003, 05:25 AM
I am big believer in forgiveness. Not that i think it is neccesary for everyone but it is definantly important to me. I can forgive, but i still hunger for justice. I still demand answers, and i still hope for a future were we can understand and even appreciate the world we live in.
Thant is the problem with us. Sometime we are so OVERFORGIVING, we want to find reasons to justify 911, USS Cole, Cobalt Tower, Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzinia, Lebonan, Panam flight 103 and others. We want to trick ourselfs that this is a war agaist extream fundimetalist muslim but we should be resonsible for the way they feel. OBL and his kind use the Qoran to justify the destuction of the infedels or no believers. He spins the qorans teachings and applies them today while using our overexcepting nature to come under our radar.the problem I see everyday is the inmate population in our jails are sucked in by this. We give them more freedom then we have. I am not to far away from believing that we should cage up all muslims in this country. I personally believe that Islam is evil and we are too stupid to defend ourselfs from it.

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I personally believe that Islam is evil and we are too stupid to defend ourselfs from it.[/b][/quote]

i believe islamic fundamentalism is evil but i know there are muslims who would put their lives on the line for this country.

there are two types of terrorists - external terrorists that can physically hurt you and internal terrorists that can paralyze you.

[T-bone]

Islam is a peaceful religion. It's those who distort it who are dangerous.

As for forgiving for 911 - no way. It's eye for an eye over there and the would never show such forgiveness if it was the other way around. Over there, when you get bombed, you bomb back. Whether that's right or not, that's how they are and that's how they have to be treated if we're going to avoid such messes in the future. They're not gonna wake up one day and go - Oh, that USA is such a nice place, we'll be good to them from now on. This will never end.

[T-bone]

To quote Theoden in The Two Towers,

"What can men do against such reckless hate?"

Even Tolkien, a devout catholic who fought in WWI but disliked war in general realized that there are some times when you have to FIGHT for freedom and what you believe in. WWI was not realy one of those times, nor was Vietnam (I don't believe that was our war) but wars like WWII and these wars against terrorist countries to me are worth the fight and I'll never regret them.

[maddog62]

This just in a touchdown on the war on Terror.

Yemen Arrests Mastermind of Attacks on USS Cole
Mohammed Hamdi al-Ahdal is a top Al Qaeda members in Yemen

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104067,00.html

[maddog62]

Touchdown in Iraq also;

Saddam Deputy's Kin Arrested
Wife and daughter nabbed


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104137,00.html

[maddog62]

I understand this, I am just venting. I also have met descent muslims who are victoms to these animals. I just don't know many who don't at least sypathize with the efforts of OBL. I was told this week that OBL is my brother and there is no proof that he did anything wrong. I am just seeing enemy every where I go. I don't sympatize with any prisoner in Gitmo to me I think they should all be guilty for the matter of just being sure. to me the loss of one American life is worth a Planet of the enemy. The problem is that they all don't realy care about there own lives because they have been manipulated to believe that death is more importand then life. I just don't want to go through the work of going through every stage of sypathy. this is feels ultimatly its our falt but doesn't agree with terrorism. Or this guy believes its all made up by Zionistic Jews in Isreal. This guy believes that OBL is not guily and is a hero because we are blaming him so we can take oil. Murphy's law of War says; The enemy always atacks on two occasions. 1 When your ready for them. 2 When your not ready for them. also, The enemy diversion you have been ignoring will be the main attack. Professionals are predictabe, ameture are dangerous. (John Mohamad and Lee Malvo). Anything you do can get you killed, including nothing (Bill Clinton)

[T-bone]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lar_guilty_plea (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20031126/ap_on_re_us/scholar_guilty_plea)

[Obidobi]

Originally posted by maddog62@Nov 26 2003, 03:21 PM
I personally believe that Islam is evil and we are too stupid to defend ourselfs from it.
I think religion is the root of all evil, not only Islam... Look in North Ireland where catholic's and protestant's are killing each other.... They even belives in the same god...

I believe Islamic fundamentalism is evil, but Christian fundamentalism isn't any better.

As for 911, it was a terrible thing that nobody should forget.... May the victims rest in peace....!

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Obidobi+Nov 27 2003, 12:59 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Obidobi @ Nov 27 2003, 12:59 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-maddog62@Nov 26 2003, 03:21 PM
I personally believe that Islam is evil and we are too stupid to defend ourselfs from it.
I think religion is the root of all evil, not only Islam... Look in North Ireland where catholic's and protestant's are killing each other.... They even belives in the same god...

I believe Islamic fundamentalism is evil, but Christian fundamentalism isn't any better.

As for 911, it was a terrible thing that nobody should forget.... May the victims rest in peace....! [/b][/quote]
Good point, but I was just venting.

[Emerita]

This is one tragady I'll never forget....it is also my birthday..... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif

[Tobi1kenobi]

Very nice thread, TBone. I agree with pretty much everything that is written in this thread.

As hard as it is for me, I have forgiven the terrorists. That does not mean that I don't want justice though. Many of my friends were killed that horrible day.

[James]

Originally posted by Emerita@Nov 29 2003, 12:16 PM
This is one tragady I'll never forget....it is also my birthday..... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif
I'm sorry about that Emerita.

[one with many names]

Here's something i wrote about 9/11, i kinda hope on makeing it a play if i get the time and resorces to do so.


In the middle of the great lands, at the heart of the dessert, there dwells the chaotic tribes of the world. They consider themselves the children of God, but they use terror to fight there wars instead of weapons or armies.

While most are killers, some strive to rise above the chaos to the civilized order of the great realms of the world. As they do so, their neighbors make plans to take away their riches and order, and bring the same chaos and destruction that they brought apon themselves years ago.

As the chaotic tribes move to destroy their orderly neighbors, one of the great realms moves to the great dessert to defend the order of these flegdling realms.

In time the chaos is defeated, but their hatred is turned onto the people of the greater realm.

With their power they struck the pride of the great realm, two great and massive towers sympolising peace, order and prossparity.

One day the towers fell at the hands of the Chaotic tribes. From the ash and rubbile comes first tears and saddness. Then came yelling, hatred and the cries of battle.

As the chaotic tribes celebrated their victory, the full might of the great realm came apawn them!

Beasts of solid iron crushed their towns and destroyed their armies. Dragons of steal came down and struck them with their breath of fire and thunder.

As the beasts rampaged across the dessert, as the men of the great realm march onword and as the dragons ruled the skies high above the dessert a new form came to the sky, a great bird, of blood, of purity and of liberty. The great bird looked down apawn the men that attacked the great realm then called out to the poeple of the dessert;

"It is they who brought this death to you! It was they who insited our wrath! If you wish to grow and prosber as we do, shun them cast them out of your homes and presence and say Now more death!"

As the poeple did so, the death was driven from their homes, never to return.

[Kit]

Originally posted by Obidobi+Nov 26 2003, 07:59 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Obidobi @ Nov 26 2003, 07:59 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-maddog62@Nov 26 2003, 03:21 PM
I personally believe that Islam is evil and we are too stupid to defend ourselfs from it.
I think religion is the root of all evil, not only Islam... Look in North Ireland where catholic's and protestant's are killing each other.... They even belives in the same god...

I believe Islamic fundamentalism is evil, but Christian fundamentalism isn't any better.

As for 911, it was a terrible thing that nobody should forget.... May the victims rest in peace....! [/b][/quote]
Nei, Obidobi... don't think that all religions in particular are evil, but you do have a great point. It is really more so that fact that idiots who believe that they and only they are right. Wars like that are about as logical as us going up against Star Trekies. And just to state: Most religions teach peace and harmony to fellow men. Religions are not human, and it is the human that wishes to destroy it's fellow men.

With the line of this topic I must say September 11th is sad for several reasons:
It's sad that so many had to die.
It's sad that so many have such hate as to kill people like that.
It's sad that is takes such a loss of life to start a war that had essentially been screaming at this country for a year if not more.
Lastly, and most importantly, it is sad that so many have forgotten what happened on that day so soon.

[Emerita]

Originally posted by James+Nov 28 2003, 11:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(James @ Nov 28 2003, 11:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Emerita@Nov 29 2003, 12:16 PM
This is one tragady I'll never forget....it is also my birthday..... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif
I'm sorry about that Emerita. [/b][/quote]
Thanks James. I have been told bad things comes in threes. 2001 9/11 twin towers...2002 9/11, my cat died....2003 9/11...John Ritter dies.....I certainly hope that is it for me for a long, long time. I am ready for a good year. I don't know if I want to celebrate my birthday next year though style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/crying.gif

[one with many names]

*Holds Emerita*

I know how you feel, my mom quit her job, were looseing money becuase none is comeing in, í can't get a job to help the situation and christmas is one it's way. I just hope it blows over for us this year cause i don't think we can afford it this year.

I just don't know what is going to happen, and i'm actually scared. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif

[maddog62]

More war on terror news;

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104371,00.html

[Emerita]

owmn....Don't carry this burden with you...Your mom will work things out. I have been in some very tight situations concerning money and things always have a way of working out.....

[one with many names]

I Hope so.

[T-bone]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor.../britain_terror (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&ncid=716&e=4&u=/ap/20031203/ap_on_re_eu/britain_terror)

[maddog62]

Good find T. Things the Democrat hopefulls ( Walter Modales) dont want us to see.

[Darth Darthy]

It was just on the news here. Never said how much he had and what he planned to do with it though.

[maddog62]

They don't NOT report the news they just keep it so short like it never happened.

[maddog62]

WOT News: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104729,00.html

[maddog62]

Here is a hipocrit for you. I can't believe this lady has the nerve to speak.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20031...129/1053287.asp (http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20031129/1053287.asp)

[T-bone]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104729,00.html [/b][/quote]

She got off easy. And after 10 years, she'll be out there plotting something else for revenge against the infidels who put her away.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by T'bone@Dec 4 2003, 01:55 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104729,00.html

She got off easy. And after 10 years, she'll be out there plotting something else for revenge against the infidels who put her away. [/b][/quote]
Amen. But thats the 9th c. supreme court (the rouge court)

[Marbleman]

There is a notion that I'd like to dispel.

The notion is that a majority of Americans have allowed emotions kindled by September 11 to transform into support for an invasion and occupation of Iraq. Some friends of mine scoff at displays of patriotism and ridicule those who feel Iraq was a major terrorist threat to this country. They feel that many Americans are arrogant, jingoist sheep that are being led on a merry crusade into Iraq by an over zealous president.

:doze:

While the September 11 hijackers and Saddam Hussein are not inexorably linked, I believe they are part of the same problem. Two weeks before September 11, Saddam had his military put on the highest state of alert, which had not been done since before the Gulf War. He had also been giving al-Qaeda funding, logistical back-up and advanced weapons training. This of course was not the primary stated reason for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, yet it is highly advertised among the anti-war crowd that Hussein had nothing to with al-Quaeda. This of course is an outrageous assertion.

The terrorist threat is real and continues to be. Approximately 3,380 people could certainly attest to this. America is still powerful, and with that power comes accountability. America doesn’t always handle things correctly, but I believe that we are promoting a good cause. How do I know? Who could make such an assertion? - Perhaps five Afghan women who now have the ability to attend classes at U.S. colleges. - Or perhaps Salim Kasim, one of Uday’s chief mechanics, who can now decide to shave every morning without permission.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

These people are just realizing the independence that America and other Western democracies take for granted. But clearly this is U.S. arrogance and imperialism at work. No, wait. The only arrogance to be found is in that of small minded elitists whose fixation on class warfare takes precedence over the security of the free world and the liberty of the oppressed.

In Iraq and elsewhere, history will judge. Mohammed Hansash Abbas, an Iraqi bookstore owner, can’t understand the strange anti-war sentiment either - "Why call us occupied? We are liberated."

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif

Forgive us, Mr. Abbas, as there are those among us who have a notion that it should be otherwise.

[maddog62]

Amen.

The U.S. Liberate we have since the begining. Ask the French, Polish, and S. Koreans

The U.N. occupies.

The U.S. defends and we always have.

The U.N. stood by as millions of Rawandans were clensed.

The U.S. fights when the going gets tough and gets critisized by the Liberals when treches full of human remains have already been found in Iraq.

The U.N. packs their bags and leaves as they did in Bagdad with one bombing.

Proove me wrong, I don't think you can.

[Darth Darthy]

The US doesn't get involved or "liberate" countries for free y'know. If that were the case then North Korea and Iran would've been invaded a long time ago.
The UK didn't get involved for out of the kindness of their hearts either - steel tariffs the US set up have just been mysteriously abolished and a lot of UK based firms are gonna make a lot of money out of Iraq.

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by Darth Darthy@Dec 5 2003, 12:48 PM
The US doesn't get involved or "liberate" countries for free y'know. If that were the case then North Korea and Iran would've been invaded a long time ago.
The UK didn't get involved for out of the kindness of their hearts either - steel tariffs the US set up have just been mysteriously abolished and a lot of UK based firms are gonna make a lot of money out of Iraq.
Capitalism is truly appealing.




Um - I meant appalling. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/crying.gif

[T-bone]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...a41921_2003dec6 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&e=7&u=/washpost/a41921_2003dec6)

[goodwije]

We rarely get a chance to see another country's editorial about the USA.

Read this excerpt from a Romanian Newspaper. The article was written by Mr. Cornel Nistorescu and published under the title "C"ntarea Americii (meaning "Ode To America") on September 24, 2002, in the Romanian newspaper Evenimentulzilei ("The Daily Event" or "News of the Day"). ~An Ode to America~

Why are Americans so united? They would not resemble one another even if you painted them all one color! They speak all the languages of the world and form an astonishing mixture of civilizations and religious beliefs.

Still, the American tragedy turned three hundred million people into a hand put on the heart. Nobody rushed to accuse the White House, the army, and the secret services that they are only a bunch of losers. Nobody rushed to empty their bank accounts. Nobody rushed out onto the streets nearby to gape about. The Americans volunteered to donate blood and to give a helping hand. After the first moments of panic, they raised their flag over the smoking ruins, putting on T-shirts, caps and ties in the colors of the national flag. They placed flags on buildings and cars as if in every place and on every car a government official or the president was passing. On every occasion, they started singing their traditional song: "God Bless America!" I watched the live broadcast and rerun after rerun for hours listening to the story of the guy who went down one hundred floors with a woman in a wheelchair without knowing who she was, or of the Californian hockey player, who gave his life fighting with the terrorists and prevented the plane from hitting a target that could have killed other hundreds or thousands of people. How on earth were they able to respond united as one human being? Imperceptibly, with every word and musical note, the memory of some turned into a modern myth of tragic heroes. And with every phone call, millions and millions of dollars were put in a collection aimed at rewarding not a man or a family, but a spirit, which no money can buy. What on earth can unite the Americans in such a way? Their land? Their galloping history? Their economic Power? Money? I tried for hours to find an answer, humming songs and murmuring phrases with the risk of sounding commonplace. I thought things over, but I reached only one conclusion...Only freedom can work such miracles.

[T-bone]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...iraq_executions (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20031208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_executions)

[maddog62]

Originally posted by T'bone@Dec 8 2003, 09:30 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...iraq_executions (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20031208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_executions)
Terrorist enough for me.

[maddog62]

BIG war on terror news from Lebanon;

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105358,00.html

[maddog62]

Good Iraq new:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105444,00.html

[Marbleman]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/13/opinion/13BROO.html

LOL!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I think we are all disgusted by the way George W. Bush's administration has allowed honesty and candor to seep into the genteel world of international affairs.[/b][/quote]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Now his administration has taken to honesty like a drunken sailor. It has made a fetish of candor and forthrightness. Things are wildly out of control.[/b][/quote]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>This is a policy (Bush's policy) based on candor, and therefore it is a mess.[/b][/quote]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps Al Gore could be brought in to offer advice.[/b][/quote]

Again, LOL! This article slew me. Anything like this is catharsis for the political climate of liberals and conservatives both accusing one another of being liars, traitors, or slanderers.

[maddog62]

Funny, because they all are liar like used car salesmen. I just pick the side that more closly represents my views or says they do at least.

[goodwije]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/12/19...plan/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/12/19/wtc.plan/index.html)

Very very cool imo

[Otis_Frampton]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>While the September 11 hijackers and Saddam Hussein are not inexorably linked[/b][/quote]

Um . .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../14/wterr14.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/14/wterr14.xml)

-Otis

[Marbleman]

I said they aren't inexorably linked, but I've always believed they were connected in some way. I also said that Iraq had been giving al-Qaeda funding, logistical back-up and advanced weapons training. I believe the war was justified anyway, with or without the al-Qaeda link. Still, its good to know that these people are all part of the same problem of terrorism.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Iraq's coalition government claims that it has uncovered documentary proof that Mohammed Atta, the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US, was trained in Baghdad by Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist.

"It shows that not only did Saddam have contacts with al-Qaeda, he had contact with those responsible for the September 11 attacks."[/b][/quote]

Those who have said that there is no link ought to be held accountable, but I'm sure they will continue to blast that we were led to war on a false premise. But if we find WMD, Howard Dean will be pushing up his political daisies and Democrats can get a real candidate like Lieberman or Edwards.

[T-bone]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...re_uncovered_dc (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=598&e=2&u=/nm/20031220/film_nm/leisure_uncovered_dc)

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>"There are many, many people out there who are too afraid to take a stand, and the value of this piece is it may coax them out of their shell of fear," Asner said. [/b][/quote]

Don't count on it, Ed. Most people aren't easily persuaded by documentaries that have already stated their intentions in the title, and tend to get their news from more reliable sources.

[maddog62]

Those who throw stones:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...03/527uwabl.asp (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/527uwabl.asp)

[maddog62]

Osama Bin Laden is not Guilty??? Howard Dean can't believe that, can he?

Dean Not Ready to Pronounce Bin Laden Guilty
Dem presidential candidate believes it's premature to recommend penalty for Usama

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106758,00.html

Is he for real?

[goodwije]

Like always fox news spun that story just how they wanted it to sound. He said it is to early to decide what penalty OBL gets until he is legally found guilty. He didnt say.. oh he might be innocent, he dint say.. we should let him go free, he was saying It is to early to understand the whole picture of his crimes.

Isnt this thread supposed to be about remembering 911 not democrat bashing?

[maddog62]

Originally posted by goodwije@Dec 28 2003, 08:08 PM
Like always fox news spun that story just how they wanted it to sound. He said it is to early to decide what penalty OBL gets until he is legally found guilty. He didnt say.. oh he might be innocent, he dint say.. we should let him go free, he was saying It is to early to understand the whole picture of his crimes.

Isnt this thread supposed to be about remembering 911 not democrat bashing?
Tell me where I am bashing Dean and anyway I am sure your CNN didn't even air the story. Whats this , they did right here:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/26/...dean.bin.laden/ (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/26/elec04.prez.dean.bin.laden/)

IT READS:New Hampshire's Concord Monitor reported that Dean said he would not state his preference on a punishment for bin Laden before the al Qaeda leader was captured and put before a jury.

"I've resisted pronouncing a sentence before guilt is found," Dean said in the interview. "I will have this old-fashioned notion that even with people like Osama, who is very likely to be found guilty, we should do our best not to, in positions of executive power, not to prejudge jury trials."

Dean added he is certain most Americans agree with that sentiment.

Later, Dean released a statement clarifying, "I share the outrage of all Americans. Osama bin Laden has admitted that he is responsible for killing 3,000 Americans as well as scores of men, women and children around the world. This is the exactly the kind of case that the death penalty is meant for.

Usually when somebody admits guity they they don't go to trial they COP A PLEA BARGIN. This is because they are not going to waste time and money in trial.

So what Dean is saying is, even know he admits killing thousands of Americans he may not be found guilty.

[maddog62]

OK here is Dean retracting his statement that he wouldn't prejudge OBL and call him guilty. NewsMax Report Prompts Dean-Bin Laden Retraction

Democratic presidential front-runner Howard Dean was
forced to retract comments yesterday where he warned
against prejudging the guilt of 9/11 terror mastermind
Osama bin Laden, prompted by NewsMax.com's coverage of the
story.

"As an American, I want to make sure he gets the death
penalty he deserves," Dean hastily told the Associated
Press, hours after NewsMax called attention to his bizarre
comments to the Concord Monitor, which posted its
interview with the leading Democrat earlier in the day.

In remarks that went unnoticed till late Friday, Dean had
told the New Hampshire paper, "I still have this old
fashioned notion that even with people like Osama, who is
very likely to be found guilty, we should do our best not
to, in positions of executive power, prejudge jury
trials."

The news was further obscured by Monitor editors, whose
headline - "Dean's secure in his view of Saddam" - gave no
clue of the bombshell quote obtained by their reporter
Lisa Wangness.

Shortly after 5 p.m. Friday, NewsMax launched its own
report under the headline, "Dean Defends bin Laden" - the
first publicly available report highlighting the leading
Democrat's astonishing blooper.

"It took the former Vermont governor a few hours after the
story got picked up on the Internet and on wire services"
for Dean to react, the New York Daily News acknowledged in
Saturday editions.

By Friday night, Dean's tune had changed 180 degrees,
saying of bin Laden, "I share in the outrage of all
Americans . . . I just think this guy is outrageous."

[goodwije]

Dean has been very vocal against the war in Iraq, however he never has been against the Afgahnistan conflict. He has said since the beginning that he supported it because of the attacks on 9-11. When i read the original quote about what Dean said about OBL i took i to mean that he was not going to say what punishment he should get until found guilty, which most likely he would be. That is all. Not that he thought he was innocent, as your post indicated.

I am not going to get in a shouting match with you.. sorry for posting at all.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by goodwije@Dec 29 2003, 10:27 PM


I am not going to get in a shouting match with you.. sorry for posting at all.
No shouting over here, just posting existing reports from all over.

[maddog62]

Afganastan news.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107291,00.html

[goodwije]

Good news, although i still worry about that country especially the way women are treated there.

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by goodwije@Jan 4 2004, 04:46 PM
Good news, although i still worry about that country especially the way women are treated there.
That is a big concern and its where the real battle lies. It is a war of ideas: modern concepts such as tolerance and democracy versus the doctrine of a fundamentalist Islam. That isn't to say that Western countries have it all together, but women's suffrage is an important issue.

Check muslim-refusenik.com (http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/) out, btw. Interesting stuff. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[maddog62]

WOW check this out:

http://drudgereport.com/flash2.htm

Are they for real?

[maddog62]

Remember the Cole? Some of us do.

http://www.pianoladynancy.com/recovery_usscole.htm

[Tovor]

I remember the Cole. Though no disrespect is intended by society, I think that in light of 9/11 the Cole attack has been overshadowed in the minds of many. It is a shame that it took 9/11 to generate America's anger toward Bin Laden and the Taliban, and not sooner as in after the Cole attack. Or before that with the embassy attacks. It is a sad shame, though human nature I guess, that we don't react with intent and determination until we are attacked directly, as in 9/11.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Tovor@Jan 10 2004, 07:20 PM
I remember the Cole. Though no disrespect is intended by society, I think that in light of 9/11 the Cole attack has been overshadowed in the minds of many. It is a shame that it took 9/11 to generate America's anger toward Bin Laden and the Taliban, and not sooner as in after the Cole attack. Or before that with the embassy attacks. It is a sad shame, though human nature I guess, that we don't react with intent and determination until we are attacked directly, as in 9/11.
That was a nicer more informative way to say exactly what other forget to do. I to agree that 911 sticks in our minds more due to the scale and scope but is no more horrible.

[Manowan]

Originally posted by Tovor@Jan 10 2004, 02:20 PM
I remember the Cole. Though no disrespect is intended by society, I think that in light of 9/11 the Cole attack has been overshadowed in the minds of many. It is a shame that it took 9/11 to generate America's anger toward Bin Laden and the Taliban, and not sooner as in after the Cole attack. Or before that with the embassy attacks. It is a sad shame, though human nature I guess, that we don't react with intent and determination until we are attacked directly, as in 9/11.
In all fairness, do you know what the bounty was for Bin Laden in 1988? 5 Million. He was in the top 10 of the FBI most wanted list long before 2001. President Clinton ordered an air strike intended to kill him. We missed him by less than an hour.

People were very concerned after the Cole attack. He was wanted.
Where we dropped the ball was ignoring the abuses of the Taliban until Sept 11, 2001. We knew what was going on and that they were hiding Bin Laden and we did nothing.

BTW, I work in Manhattan and on Sept 11 I was walking to work and I watched the first plane fly into the north tower. I will never forget that day, and I still see firefighter's as heroes.

We wasted so much time and energy on Saddam. WE NEED TO CATCH BIN LADEN.

[Angel Starmaster]

Well, here's a question for you, in light of the fact that they've proved that Saddam's Regime was involved with Al Queda, who's to say that capturing Saddam isn't going to be the key to Shutting the AQ down for good?

Me, I remember the Cole very well. I was on board USS Kitty Hawk at the time, stationed out of Yokosuka, Japan. Try calling home when 5,000 other sailors are trying to do the same thing on a ship that has a total of about 20 outside lines. Talk about being closed out. And the services given for the individuals who were killed. Wasn't a dry eye in the chapel.

After 9/11 the sorrow, for what had seemed to the average sailor as a random act of terrorism, became pure rage and a lust for vengance. Now we knew who our enemies were. Now there was a goal. A target. I'll tell you what, OBL may be able to run and hide, but for as long as there is an American Military he will never be able to rest. He will be spend the rest of his days looking over his shoulder and watching the skies for the next bomb. The second he stops our boys will be all over him like flies on a turd.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan@Jan 11 2004, 03:38 AM
President Clinton ordered an air strike intended to kill him. We missed him by less than an hour.

Intended to kill OBL? Are you saying Clinton would kill a terrorist but not try the same terrorist.? Interesting

Sudan was trying to turn over custody to the U.S.

Apparently, Clinton turned it down.


Maybe the attacks were intended to miss but send a message.

[Tovor]

Originally posted by Manowan+Jan 10 2004, 10:38 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Manowan @ Jan 10 2004, 10:38 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Tovor@Jan 10 2004, 02:20 PM
I remember the Cole. Though no disrespect is intended by society, I think that in light of 9/11 the Cole attack has been overshadowed in the minds of many. It is a shame that it took 9/11 to generate America's anger toward Bin Laden and the Taliban, and not sooner as in after the Cole attack. Or before that with the embassy attacks. It is a sad shame, though human nature I guess, that we don't react with intent and determination until we are attacked directly, as in 9/11.
In all fairness, do you know what the bounty was for Bin Laden in 1988? 5 Million. He was in the top 10 of the FBI most wanted list long before 2001. President Clinton ordered an air strike intended to kill him. We missed him by less than an hour.

People were very concerned after the Cole attack. He was wanted.
Where we dropped the ball was ignoring the abuses of the Taliban until Sept 11, 2001. We knew what was going on and that they were hiding Bin Laden and we did nothing.

BTW, I work in Manhattan and on Sept 11 I was walking to work and I watched the first plane fly into the north tower. I will never forget that day, and I still see firefighter's as heroes.

We wasted so much time and energy on Saddam. WE NEED TO CATCH BIN LADEN. [/b][/quote]
Oh, don't get me wrong. I have no doubt that the military wanted to nail him to the Earth's mantle, that the government wanted him dead, that many American's hoped that the military would get rid of him...What I mean to say in my above message was that until 9/11 there hadn't been such an overwhelming, overbearing hatred for OBL and a desperate want of his death. After the embassy bombings and the attack on the Cole, sure many Americans were angry and saddened by the deaths due to OBL. But until we were attacked on our shores, it had all seemed so distant and far removed from us.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan@Jan 11 2004, 03:38 AM


We wasted so much time and energy on Saddam. WE NEED TO CATCH BIN LADEN.
Who said we are not wasting our time and energy to catch Bin Laden. Hell, he was offered to us a couple years back.

[Manowan]

Originally posted by maddog62+Jan 11 2004, 10:35 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(maddog62 @ Jan 11 2004, 10:35 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Manowan@Jan 11 2004, 03:38 AM
President Clinton ordered an air strike intended to kill him. We missed him by less than an hour.

Intended to kill OBL? Are you saying Clinton would kill a terrorist but not try the same terrorist.? Interesting

Sudan was trying to turn over custody to the U.S.

Apparently, Clinton turned it down.


Maybe the attacks were intended to miss but send a message. [/b][/quote]
That report about Clinton turning down a deal is false. Clinton and other's in his admin have said it several times.

I don't particularly care for Dean, but I agree with one thing that he said. It's not Saddam that is threatening our planes and our cities with attack, it's Bin Laden. All the time, energy and like spendt in Iraq should have been a continued concentration on Al Queda which is still our biggest threat. Rember this Christmas and New Years? Saddam had been caught yet our terror status was still raised to it's second highest level? Why? Because of Bin Laden, not Saddam. No WMD's, no direct threat from Iraq. Bin Laden is still the biggest thread to this nation. WE NEED TO CATCH BIN LADEN!

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan+Jan 12 2004, 03:41 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Manowan @ Jan 12 2004, 03:41 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> Originally posted by maddog62@Jan 11 2004, 10:35 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Manowan@Jan 11 2004, 03:38 AM
President Clinton ordered an air strike intended to kill him.* We missed him by less than an hour.

Intended to kill OBL? Are you saying Clinton would kill a terrorist but not try the same terrorist.? Interesting

Sudan was trying to turn over custody to the U.S.

Apparently, Clinton turned it down.


Maybe the attacks were intended to miss but send a message.
That report about Clinton turning down a deal is false. Clinton and other's in his admin have said it several times.

I don't particularly care for Dean, but I agree with one thing that he said. It's not Saddam that is threatening our planes and our cities with attack, it's Bin Laden. All the time, energy and like spendt in Iraq should have been a continued concentration on Al Queda which is still our biggest threat. Rember this Christmas and New Years? Saddam had been caught yet our terror status was still raised to it's second highest level? Why? Because of Bin Laden, not Saddam. No WMD's, no direct threat from Iraq. Bin Laden is still the biggest thread to this nation. WE NEED TO CATCH BIN LADEN! [/b][/quote]
That report about Clinton turning down a deal is false. Clinton and other's in his admin have said it several times. Says who?

It's not Saddam that is threatening our planes and our cities with attack, it's Bin Laden. Says Dr. Dean

Saddam had been caught yet our terror status was still raised to it's second highest level? Who said the war was over?

No WMD's Says who? I guess he never gassed the Kurds or Iran?


no direct threat from Iraq. Sept, 10 2001 SAM missles locked on to U.S. War planes patroling the No Fly Zone

Bin Laden is still the biggest thread to this nation. WE NEED TO CATCH BIN LADEN! True

But this is all true if you look at the war on terror on such a small scope and scale. The fact is Saddam was a major funder and supporter of terror for 20+ years up untill his capture. He still is hiding at least 40 Billion Dollors. Only people like Dr. Dean couldn't believe a guy like Saddam could not be in cahoots with OBL. the UN never prooved that he had WMD when they were there and still can't now. Ask the Kurds if he had WMD's. The only fact remains is Sudan was giving custody to Bill Clinton and he refused him. There is a whole bunch more peole saying this did happen then the 5 or 6 people saying it never did happen. Bill Clinton also said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was almost the exact same speech Bush gave last year. He also said that he never had sexual relations with Monica. You tell me.

[Manowan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>That report about Clinton turning down a deal is false. Clinton and other's in his admin have said it several times. Says who?[/b][/quote]

Says me, I have personally seen Albright and others make this assertion on television.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>No WMD's Says who? I guess he never gassed the Kurds or Iran?[/b][/quote]
Why don't you ask Paul O'neill?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3925358/

Clinton may have made the same speech as Bush, but he did not take the same action. I saw footage of George Bush senior this weekend talking about why he didnt' go after Saddam. He said it would get us into a long costly war and that it would be too hard to find Saddam. Do you remember that? Now sonny boy takes a complete turn around and it's ok?

Nonsense.

Sept 11 happended on Bush's watch. He didn't do what was required to stop it. Period.

Everytime Saddam locked onto our fighters we shot out the surface to air silos. That was no real threat to anyone.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan@Jan 12 2004, 07:05 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>That report about Clinton turning down a deal is false. Clinton and other's in his admin have said it several times. Says who?

Says me, I have personally seen Albright and others make this assertion on television.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>No WMD's Says who? I guess he never gassed the Kurds or Iran?[/b][/quote]
Why don't you ask Paul O'neill?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3925358/

Clinton may have made the same speech as Bush, but he did not take the same action. I saw footage of George Bush senior this weekend talking about why he didnt' go after Saddam. He said it would get us into a long costly war and that it would be too hard to find Saddam. Do you remember that? Now sonny boy takes a complete turn around and it's ok?

Nonsense.

Sept 11 happended on Bush's watch. He didn't do what was required to stop it. Period.

Everytime Saddam locked onto our fighters we shot out the surface to air silos. That was no real threat to anyone. [/b][/quote]
Why don't you ask Paul O'neill? Nobody listened to him then why should we listen to him now. He was bitter he was fired.

Says me, I have personally seen Albright and others make this assertion on television. You saw her try and cover her own butt on TV.

Clinton may have made the same speech as Bush, but he did not take the same action. I saw footage of George Bush senior this weekend talking about why he didnt' go after Saddam. He said it would get us into a long costly war and that it would be too hard to find Saddam. He should have. The reason they didn't go after Sadam then is because he was bogged down in UN buricratic redtape and the UN felt it neccesary to bleed Iraq dry through the Oil for Food program.

Sept 11 happended on Bush's watch. He didn't do what was required to stop it. Period. 5 other Al Qaede attacks happened on Slick Willy's shift and he did little to nothing to stop them or even get after the people who did it. He did shoot Tomahawk Missles into a field of empty tents and an Aspirin factory.

May 1998 I sat 25 to 50 miles south of the Iraq as an Advanced Party of the 1st Marine Div. I guess the threat of Iraq was good enough for all of that, but then again I guess Ken Star didn't get enough dirt.

[maddog62]

Saddam=Terrorist

http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com...&partnerID=1660 (http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=USATODAY.com+-+Attacks+down+22%25+since+Saddam%27s+capture&expire=&urlID=8882339&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fworld%2 Firaq%2F2004-01-12-iraq-attacks-down_x.htm&partnerID=1660)

[maddog62]

No WMD's http://projects.sipri.se/cbw/research/fact...sheet-1984.html (http://projects.sipri.se/cbw/research/factsheet-1984.html)

http://www.irna.ir/occasion/defence/englis.../result/631.htm (http://www.irna.ir/occasion/defence/english/result/631.htm)

Here is a movie: http://www.arabicrecords.com/iruseofchemw.html

What about the Kurds? http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/883979/posts http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../17/wkird17.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/17/wkird17.xml)

[Manowan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Sept 11 happended on Bush's watch. He didn't do what was required to stop it. Period. 5 other Al Qaede attacks happened on Slick Willy's shift and he did little to nothing to stop them or even get after the people who did it. He did shoot Tomahawk Missles into a field of empty tents and an Aspirin factory.[/b][/quote]

So that means GWB gets a pass!!!!!????? None of those attacks were on american soil. To say Clinton did not try to stop these attacks or catch Bin Laden is just plain ignorant.

maddog, you are so biased I don't know if there is any point in responding to you or reading your banter.

Bush lied and misled you about his reasons for going to war! You think lying about a blowjob is worse....I don't.

Another chopper full of our solidiers was shot down in Iraq today. What are you going to tell the families?

[Manowan]

Coincidence? I think not: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3925358/

WMDs: http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politic...ics/3135932.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3135932.stm)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1005-01.htm

http://www.thetip.org/art_IRAQ_HAD_NO_WMD_...M_630_icle.html (http://www.thetip.org/art_IRAQ_HAD_NO_WMD_PROGRAM_630_icle.html)


Clinton and Bin Laden:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1558918.stm

http://edstrong.blog-city.com/read/315460.htm


Bush and 911:

http://www.rense.com/Datapages/bushkn.html

http://www.patriotsaints.com/News/911/Conspiracy/Bush/

http://democrats.com/elandslide/petition.c...fm?campaign=911 (http://democrats.com/elandslide/petition.cfm?campaign=911)

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan@Jan 13 2004, 03:53 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Sept 11 happended on Bush's watch. He didn't do what was required to stop it. Period. 5 other Al Qaede attacks happened on Slick Willy's shift and he did little to nothing to stop them or even get after the people who did it. He did shoot Tomahawk Missles into a field of empty tents and an Aspirin factory.

So that means GWB gets a pass!!!!!????? None of those attacks were on american soil. To say Clinton did not try to stop these attacks or catch Bin Laden is just plain ignorant.

maddog, you are so biased I don't know if there is any point in responding to you or reading your banter.

Bush lied and misled you about his reasons for going to war! You think lying about a blowjob is worse....I don't.

Another chopper full of our solidiers was shot down in Iraq today. What are you going to tell the families? [/b][/quote]
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Bush lied and misled you about his reasons for going to war!* You think lying about a blowjob is worse....I don't.* [/b][/quote] No what I am saying is Bush and Clinton didn't mislead you about Iraq they probably didn't tell you everything there is to know and still have not told us everything there is to know on for the reasons of national security. AL QAEDA in Iraq here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108212,00.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Another chopper full of our solidiers was shot down in Iraq today.* What are you going to tell the families?[/b][/quote] I am going to tell thier families that they were great Heros and Americans and they did a great justice for the world. I wish I could die with so much HONOR Although this is sad and disturbing news to me and I feal for thier families, this is the profession these people have chosen just like I did and may choose again knowing the risks. They are soilders just like my Grandfather was in WW2. My father was a Marine and served in Vietnam. They did thier jobs whillingly and knowingly. Clinton was just as justifed in attacking Iraq ans bush was for finishing the job.

In my profession I have learned when the proof is right in your face its most likely the truth not some vast conspiracy. When a guy is using loopholes to cover his tracks he is morall guilty but maybe not proven legally guilty. Lying about the blowjob just made him a known lier and a criminal. He should have just taken it on the chin and fessed up about it for his crediblity, nothing happened about it anyway.

[Manowan]

Ok, maddog, I will give you that one. Clinton should have just fessed up from the start. But the question he was asked was part of a trap set for him. He never should have been asked. But yes, he stepped in it.

But Bush's lie is costing lives everyday. The conservatives are using 911 as an excuse to do things they really wanted to do anyway. Civil liberties are going out the window. Are you ready to have your foreign friends fingerprinted?

I will ask you point blank, was Iraq and its WMD's an immediate threat to the United States?

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan@Jan 13 2004, 07:55 PM
Ok, maddog, I will give you that one. Clinton should have just fessed up from the start. But the question he was asked was part of a trap set for him. He never should have been asked. But yes, he stepped in it.

But Bush's lie is costing lives everyday. The conservatives are using 911 as an excuse to do things they really wanted to do anyway. Civil liberties are going out the window. Are you ready to have your foreign friends fingerprinted?

I will ask you point blank, was Iraq and its WMD's an immediate threat to the United States?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> But the question he was asked was part of a trap set for him. He never should have been asked. But yes, he stepped in it.[/b][/quote] When you use your position to make sexual advances to emploees/interns its a crime.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Civil liberties are going out the window. Are you ready to have your foreign friends fingerprinted?[/b][/quote] Yes, my wife is a 1st generation Mexican American. Alliens do not deserve our freedoms untill they become Americans. What does that have to do with Iraq? That is a direct result of 911 and both Democrats and Republicans both agree. Its not our civil liberties they are worried about.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I will ask you point blank, was Iraq and its WMD's an immediate threat to the United States?[/b][/quote] In the hands of a terrorist, YES most definatly.

[Manowan]

If your answer is Yes, then where are the WMD's? Where are the weapons that posed such a threat to the US that we HAD to go to war with Iraq!

WHERE ARE THEY?

[maddog62]

I am sure saddam knows.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by maddog62@Jan 13 2004, 11:19 PM
I am sure saddam knows.
Well, now you'll have the chance to ask him, wouldn't you?

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by maddog62@Jan 13 2004, 05:35 AM


Clinton may have made the same speech as Bush, but he did not take the same action. I saw footage of George Bush senior this weekend talking about why he didnt' go after Saddam. He said it would get us into a long costly war and that it would be too hard to find Saddam.

George Bush senior had a perfect chance to get Saddam at the end of the first Gulf War when American troops were within a few hundred miles of Bagbad and their defences were completely f**ked. But he bottled it totally and didn't go for it because he had no plan for after they'd won the war.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Darth Badly+Jan 14 2004, 01:22 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darth Badly @ Jan 14 2004, 01:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-maddog62@Jan 13 2004, 05:35 AM


Clinton may have made the same speech as Bush, but he did not take the same action. I saw footage of George Bush senior this weekend talking about why he didnt' go after Saddam. He said it would get us into a long costly war and that it would be too hard to find Saddam.

George Bush senior had a perfect chance to get Saddam at the end of the first Gulf War when American troops were within a few hundred miles of Bagbad and their defences were completely f**ked. But he bottled it totally and didn't go for it because he had no plan for after they'd won the war. [/b][/quote]
That was not my quote. tha was manowan's.

[Manowan]

Originally posted by maddog62@Jan 13 2004, 05:19 PM
I am sure saddam knows.
I want you to know for this for the record. That is a complete punk answer.

They didn't find any WMDs! GWB lied to you about why he went to war, and instead of being disgusted you defend him. You ignore that lie and the foul Halliburton stench and you tow the party line. I have no respect for that.

[T-bone]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>GWB lied to you about why he went to war, and instead of being disgusted you defend him.[/b][/quote]

Unless you can prove this without a doubt - I suggest you CALM DOWN and be respectable. That goes for everyone. Don't make me close this thread...again.

[T-bone]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lactioninbosnia (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=5&u=/usatoday/deanurgedclintontotakeunilateralactioninbosnia)

[goodwije]

Dean has never claimed to be anti-war, he is against the war in Iraq. He has touted since the beginning his support of military action in Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and even the follow through in Iraq in 1991.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by goodwije@Jan 14 2004, 06:44 PM
Dean has never claimed to be anti-war, he is against the war in Iraq. He has touted since the beginning his support of military action in Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and even the follow through in Iraq in 1991.
Dean has never claimed to be anti-war, he is against the war in Iraq. Of course, Bush is the President that sent us there.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by T'bone@Jan 14 2004, 05:09 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lactioninbosnia (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=5&u=/usatoday/deanurgedclintontotakeunilateralactioninbosnia)
I was going to put that one up but I refrain from some links for personal reasons.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan+Jan 14 2004, 04:38 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Manowan @ Jan 14 2004, 04:38 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-maddog62@Jan 13 2004, 05:19 PM
I am sure saddam knows.
I want you to know for this for the record. That is a complete punk answer.

They didn't find any WMDs! GWB lied to you about why he went to war, and instead of being disgusted you defend him. You ignore that lie and the foul Halliburton stench and you tow the party line. I have no respect for that. [/b][/quote]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>GWB lied to you about why he went to war, and instead of being disgusted you defend him.[/b][/quote] Just because WMD's have not yet been found doesn't mean they were not ever there.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>They didn't find any WMDs![/b][/quote] http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108371,00.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>You ignore that lie and the foul Halliburton stench and you tow the party line.[/b][/quote] There is no lie I prooved that over and over. Nobody cares about Halliburton except Liberals/Socialists and still have not made a credible issue about them. Clinton used them in Bosnia.


One question, why hasn't the 9 Walter Mondale Democratic Canidates pushed the Bush Lied Angle about WMD's? Simple answer, when they spend so much time jumping up and down over this stupid issue and WMD's are found or prooven they have been dispatched to Terror Groups, They will look like asses.

What is more funny to talk about is the Democrat Canidates proove each other to be two sided talking on ever war issue every day each time they talk. I hope for at least all our sake you vote for Lieberman.

[Manowan]

I read your big article. Like I said. No WMD's found.

This big threat to the U.S. that GW said Iraq posed is unfounded. There has been nothing to substantiate it. He should be arrested. He misled us on his reasons for war. We did not need to go to war with Iraq.

http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/ba...onworld-utility (http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/bal-te.journal12jan12,0,6894226.column?coll=bal-nationworld-utility)

Nobody cares about Halliburton? How about the other contractors that never got a chance to bid on the reconstruction and oil contracts? You can't be serious. Let me guess, you think the fact that Dick C was former chair is just by chance? Give me a break.

I could respect you more if you weren't in such blind denial. You will defend your boy Bush and his buddies no matter what. That is not being a man, that's being a good programmed little sheep.

I think the Democratic candidates have big problems. I don't like Dean. I only agreed with one or 2 things he said. Lieberman in not electable because this country is still to racially and religiously charged to elect a jew as president.

Sadly I must admit that unless Hillary runs or George shoots himself in the foot big time, he will get re-elected. Or should I say Dick Cheney will get re-elected, because he is the real president.

[goodwije]

That was a strange thing to say about Lieberman, i have never heard anyone say a word about him being a Jew, infact i didnt even know until you said something.

I was going to respond to another post, but i choose not because of personal reasons.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan@Jan 14 2004, 09:44 PM
I read your big article.* Like I said.* No WMD's found.

This big threat to the U.S. that GW said Iraq posed is unfounded.* There has been nothing to substantiate it.* He should be arrested.* He misled us on his reasons for war.* We did not need to go to war with Iraq.

http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/ba...onworld-utility (http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/bal-te.journal12jan12,0,6894226.column?coll=bal-nationworld-utility)

Nobody cares about Halliburton?* How about the other contractors that never got a chance to bid on the reconstruction and oil contracts?* You can't be serious.* Let me guess, you think the fact that Dick C was former chair is just by chance?* Give me a break.

I could respect you more if you weren't in such blind denial.* You will defend your boy Bush and his buddies no matter what.* That is not being a man, that's being a good programmed little sheep.

I think the Democratic candidates have big problems.* I don't like Dean.* I only agreed with one or 2 things he said.* Lieberman in not electable because this country is still to racially and religiously charged to elect a jew as president.*

Sadly I must admit that unless Hillary runs or George shoots himself in the foot big time, he will get re-elected.* Or should I say Dick Cheney will get re-elected, because he is the real president.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>This big threat to the U.S. that GW said Iraq posed is unfounded.* There has been nothing to substantiate it.* He should be arrested.* He misled us on his reasons for war.* We did not need to go to war with Iraq.[/quote] And no evidence that they didn't. He used them against the Kurds and Iran.[/b]

http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/ba...onworld-utility (http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/bal-te.journal12jan12,0,6894226.column?coll=bal-nationworld-utility)
Might has well been MoveOn.org. (Non Partisain) http://moveon.org/

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Nobody cares about Halliburton?* How about the other contractors that never got a chance to bid on the reconstruction and oil contracts?* You can't be serious.* Let me guess, you think the fact that Dick C was former chair is just by chance?* Give me a break.[/b][/quote] They wanted him to resign, he did, now they want him to comit suicide. the fact is Halliburton was the best for the job. (The Clintons thought so) You would probably give the contract to France.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I could respect you more if you weren't in such blind denial.* You will defend your boy Bush and his buddies no matter what.* That is not being a man, that's being a good programmed little sheep.[/b][/quote] Now I won't get into the problems I see with Bush in this topic. As for as being a PROGRAMED SHEEP, thats funny because I see it the same way with you. I will not even lower myself in defending my manhood to you or anybody else out of my own self respect but I do find major problems with both parties, I just try to side with the one I fell best represents my conservative views. I don't even really consider my self a Republican but I am not afraid to call myself a CONSERVATIVE and you should not be afraid to call yourself a LIBERAL/SOCIALIST. I don't support all of Bush's policies but I have been supporting action in Iraq for 13 years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Lieberman in not electable because this country is still to racially and religiously charged to elect a jew as president.* [/b][/quote] This is also funny because I agree with Goodwije here. You are suppose to be Tollerant, I can care less of the Presidents religous beliefs or even sex/race. I strickly pick because of what is in his/her head.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Or should I say Dick Cheney will get re-elected, because he is the real president.[/b][/quote] Not in my eyes. I will vote for GWB again even if by chance Al Gore saw the light ran as his Vice President. That was a joke....

Sadly I must admit that unless Hillary runs or George shoots himself in the foot big time, he will get re-elected. Maybe she shot herself with her Racially Charge Joke. I think she should resign. http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/goto/?...llary%2BClinton (http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/goto/?getPage=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews%2Ego%2Ecom%2Fwire%2F Politics%2Fap20040106%5F1188%2Ehtml&return=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edrudgereportarchives%2Ec om%2Fdsp%2Fsearch%2Ehtm%3FsearchFor%3DHillary%2BCl inton)
I have a whole thing about her in my President 2004 topic.

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Nobody cares about Halliburton? How about the other contractors that never got a chance to bid on the reconstruction and oil contracts? You can't be serious. Let me guess, you think the fact that Dick C was former chair is just by chance? Give me a break.[/b][/quote]

Alright in '01, Halliburton won the bid for the U.S. Army Logistics Civil Augmentation Program (LOGCAP) for prewar Iraq. Got it? The no-bid concerning oil-well fires I think you refer to was given to Halliburton February of last year. It was apparently done for expediency because they were the ones who dealt with the oil-well fires in Kuwait at the end of the Gulf War.

Had the administration gone with lengthy competitive bidding and ended up with a less experienced company, they would've undoubtably had much more difficulty and it would have been used as an example by Bush's political opponents of bad planning for postwar Iraq.

As MD mentioned but you didn't comment on, Clinton did the same thing in the Balkans with Halliburton even though they lost the contract for LOGCAP in '97. He knew they were efficient and wisely didn't change the contract in the middle of the U.S. peacekeeping mission there.

Yet Cheney was the root cause behind it eh? I have my doubts. There is a pattern with our government and this company.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I could respect you more if you weren't in such blind denial. You will defend your boy Bush and his buddies no matter what. That is not being a man, that's being a good programmed little sheep.[/b][/quote]

He has stated plenty of things he disagrees with Bush on. Just because he agrees with Bush on the Iraqi War does not mean he will "defend him no matter what." Isn't it just great how some people on both sides demonize one another as "sheep" or "traitors," etc. Much easier to label people in one big group than to look at the various political beliefs they hold to.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Lieberman in not electable because this country is still to racially and religiously charged to elect a jew as president.[/b][/quote]

Probably true. Its too bad too, because he brings constructive discourse to my parties' table. Some of my Democratic brethren are too easily dissuaded by words that ignite their passion: Words like "misled," "lied," or *shock* "Halliburton."

That's not reality; this war was much more complicated than that. But that mentality seems to be a sheepish trend right now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe she shot herself with her Racially Charge Joke.[/b][/quote]
That thing about Ghandi? Give her a break maddog, I'll bet she didn't even realize how some people could take that as a racist attack. I feel bad for all the heat she's getting for that, and if I were her I would have told people to lighten up (She's too PC). Same thing with Sharpton's attack on Dean for not having any African Americans on his Cabinet for the 12 years of his governorship.

Policy and Character should be the factors, and people shouldn't be stepping on pins and needles about meeting quotas.

[maddog62]

Wow, well spoken Marbleman84.

You seam to be well educated about the whole matter and you obviously have been paying close attention to what I have been saying.

I think the Hillary Clinton Joke was light but then again I also think Trent Lott was railroaded for his statement.

Some of what I say is used to invoke reaction to proove my points.

The only Quagmire is the Antiwar Points used to protest .

[Manowan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Not in my eyes. I will vote for GWB again even if by chance Al Gore saw the light ran as his Vice President. That was a joke....[/b][/quote]

Al Gore was actually elected president. GWB wasn't. He and his brother fixed that though didn't they.

Marbleman, what does all your research tell you about Enron?

BTW, I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal, and proud of it. I am not a socialist. Do not equate the 2, again it is ignorant.

What's Bush trying to hide on 911?
http://www.minorityx.com/viewarticle.php?artId=136

http://democrats.com/elandslide/petition.c...fm?campaign=911 (http://democrats.com/elandslide/petition.cfm?campaign=911)

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/6-19-03/d...ion.cgi.28.html (http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/6-19-03/discussion.cgi.28.html)

Oh where is Ken Starr when you really need him?

[Manowan]

Maddog, since you like to answer posts point for point, have a go at this:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>To: George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Congress, and the Media
Since 911, Americans have learned about numerous warnings that were received by the Bush Administration before 911.

These numerous warnings were ignored, with fatal consequences for nearly 3,000 people.

If these warnings had not been ignored, the Bush Administration could have protected America by taking decisive action in the days leading up to 911, and on 911 itself.

Moreover, the Bush Administration concealed these crucial facts from Congress and the American people, and then lied about them when they were revealed, in a deliberate effort to cover up its failure to protect America.

We, the American people, call upon the Bush-Cheney administration to take responsibility for failing to protect America, and to resign. If George W. Bush and Dick Cheney refuse to resign, we demand their impeachment by Congress.

The following list contains the most serious warnings that were ignored by the Bush administration.

Individually, each of these failures justifies punishment of those directly responsible.

Collectively, these failures justify the resignation - or impeachment - of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, who are ultimately responsible for the failure of their Administration to protect the American people.

The Bush administration ignored the issue of terrorism from the moment it assumed office:

They ignored the final report of the Hart-Rudman commission, the Road Map for National Security: Imperative for Change, that was issued on January 31, 2001
They blocked Senate hearings on the Hart-Rudman commission's report, scheduled for the week of May 7, 2001, by announcing a brand new commission led by Vice President Dick Cheney - which never met before 911
They ignored repeated requests from the Hart-Rudman commission from January 2001 to September 6, 2001, when National Security adviser Condoleezza Rice said she would "pass on" their concerns
They ignored repeated requests from Senator Dianne Feinstein to restructure US counter-terrorism and homeland defense programs, starting in July 2001 and continuing through September 10, 2001, when Dick Cheney's Chief of Staff told Feinstein to wait 6 months
They ignored the report of the Gore Commission on Aviation Safety and Security
The Bush administration changed Bill Clinton's policy towards Afghanistant to appease Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and their Saudi backers to promote the interests of oil companies, putting profits for campaign contributors ahead of fighting terrorism:

They prevented FBI terrorism experts from investigating Saudi Arabian ties to Al Qaeda before 911, leading to the resignation of FBI Deputy Director John O'Neill only two weeks before 911
They ordered the Naval Strike Force - which President Clinton deployed near Afghanistan on 24-hour alert in order to strike Osama Bin Laden - to "stand down" before 911
They gave $43 million to the Taliban in April 2001
When appeasement failed, the Bush administration then prepared for war against Afghanistan:

They issued an ultimatum to the Taliban in July 2001, telling them to turn over Osama Bin Laden and permit Unocal to build a pipeline across Afghanistan in return for a "carpet of gold" - or face a "carpet of bombs"
They prepared a National Security Presidential Directive on September 9, 2001, a detailed "game plan to remove al-Qaida from the face of the Earth"
The Bush administration ignored numerous warnings from US and foreign agencies:

They ignored warnings as early as June from the National Security Agency's Echelon electronic spy network that Middle Eastern terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture
They ignored warnings from an FBI agent in Phoenix on July 10, 2001 about suspicious Arab pilots with ties to Al Qaeda who were training in a local flight school, urging a nationwide investigation of Arab students in flight schools
Bush personally ignored warnings from the CIA on August 6, 2001 that Al Qaeda planned to hijack US planes
They ignored warnings from Jordanian intelligence in the summer that a major attack was planned inside the US using airplanes
They ignored warnings from Israeli intelligence in August that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent, organized by a cell of as many of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation
They ignored warnings from Russian intelligence in August that at least 25 terrorist were trained in Afghanistan and Pakistan to attack US targets, with future plans to attack financial, nuclear, and space facilities
They ignored warnings from Moroccan intelligence in August that Bin Laden was "very disappointed" by the failure of the 1993 WTC bombing, and planned "large-scale operations in New York in the summer or autumn of 2001"
They rejected a search warrant requests by FBI agents in Minneapolis for Moussaoui's computer disk
They ignored warnings from Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak on August 31 of an impending attack on the US
They ignored phone calls from Abu Zubaida, bin Laden's chief of operations, to the United States that were intercepted by the National Security Agency shortly before 911
They ignored an extroardinary number of "puts" on the stocks which were hardest hit by the 911 attacks, including American and United airlines, in the days leading up to 911
The Bush administration failed to take meaningful precautions against a terrorist attack when so many warnings were being issued:

Bush went on vacation for the month of August, after only six months on the job
They allowed counterterrorism agencies to "stand down" from the highest level of alert before August 6, 2001, despite repeated warnings from CIA director George Tenet
The FAA knew about concerns that Moussaiou would hijack a 747 in August 2001, but failed to warn the airlines
They failed to assign more sky marshalls or to make cockpit doors more secure
They changed FAA policy to prohibit pilots from carrying guns
They failed to increase the readiness levels of our Air Defense
On 911, Bush failed to take decisive action:

George W. Bush said on two occasions that he saw the first plane hit the World Trade Center at 8:46 a.m. on 911, and was told by Andrew Card about the second plane hitting the World Trade Center at 9:05 a.m. - yet Bush did nothing but listen to a children's story until 9:30 a.m. instead of ordering fighter jets to intercept all hijacked planes immediately
George W. Bush and Dick Cheney ordered the Pentagon to shoot down Flight 93 over Pennsylvania at 9:55 a.m., but could have shot down the other three flights if they had not waited so long to act
Following 911, Bush used the tragedy to promote the agenda of his wealthy and powerful supporters:

Bush pushed through the USA Patriot Act, which rewarded right-wing opponents of freedom and civil liberties
Bush demanded additional tax cuts for the wealthy using the pretense of "stimulating" the economy
Bush massively increased defense spending, to the direct personal benefit of his father and his cronies in the Carlyle Group
To cover up his failures, the Bush administration resorted to stonewalling, fingerpointing, and lies about 911:

They have continually lied about the extent of the warnings about the 911 attack

Shortly after 911, Ari Fleischer declared flatly that there were "no warnings"
When it was revealed in May 2002 that the CIA briefed Bush personally on August 6, 2001, they claimed that the briefing did not address terrorist attacks in the US; then they claimed it was a "low-level" briefing based on only one warning
Condoleezza Rice said, "I don't think anyone could have predicted that these people... would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile." (5/16/02)

The Pentagon commissioned a study in 1993 called "Terrorism 2000", which predicted multiple simultaneous attacks, the use of airplanes as weapons, targeting of large landmarks and financial centers, etc.
A Fedex employee tried to crash a DC-10 into FedEx HQ in Memphis in 1994, but was apprehended
An Islamic fundamentalist group hijacked an Air France flight and loaded it with 27 tons of fuel to destroy the Eiffel Tower, but special forces stormed the plane on the ground
Abdul Hakim Murad and Ramsey Yousef conceived of 'Project Bojinka' in 1995, a plan to blow up 11 US airline flights over the Pacific in 1995, and to crash airplanes into the Pentagon and the CIA, which definitely caught the attention of counter-terrorism experts in the US
The Library of Congress Report on The Sociology And Psychology Of Terrorism warned in 1999 about suicide hijackers
The Pentagon conducted a drill in December 2000 to respond to an airline crashing into the Pentagon
U.S. and Italian officials were warned in July 2001 that Islamic terrorists might attempt to kill President Bush and other leaders by crashing an airliner into the Genoa summit of industrialized nations
They did everything possible to block an independent commission investigation

Bush and Cheney personally called Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle urging him not to conduct an investigation
When pressure for an independent commission became too strong, they suddenly announced warnings of another attack - although they did not raise the official alert level above yellow, leading to widespread speculation of a deliberately false alarm to stop the momentum
When the Independent Commission finally began its work, Bush used Nixon's dictatorial doctrine of "Executive Privilege" to deny commissioners access to crucial documents
George W. Bush himself has repeatedly JOKED about the 911 attack

"Lucky me. I hit the trifecta," George W. Bush, shortly after 9/11 - quoted by Bush Budget Director Mitch Daniels, 11/28/01

For links to the most comprehensive analyses of the unanswered questions about September 11, click here.

To make a contribution to support the Democrats.com impeachment campaign, click here.
[/b][/quote]

[Blizzard]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif

[maddog62]

Who wrote that, Al Frankin?

Developing WMD story here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108654,00.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>BTW, I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal, and proud of it. I am not a socialist. Do not equate the 2, again it is ignorant.[/b][/quote] http://sp-usa.org/ Thats funny the have the same views as you. If it walks like a duck. Maybe it you who are ignorant. http://socialistworker.org/

Why are you getting so mad?

[Manowan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Thats funny the have the same views as you. If it walks like a duck. Maybe it you who are ignorant. [/b][/quote]

After you say something like that, you ask why I get mad?

I noticed you didn't even attempt to refute anything in the post. That's
very telling.

http://www.wnbc.com/politics/2769771/detail.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> MANCHESTER, N.H. -- Wesley Clark is calling for a congressional investigation of whether President George W. Bush's march toward war in Iraq involved anything criminal.*
Wesley Clark is calling for a congressional investigation of whether President George W. Bush's march toward war in Iraq involved anything criminal.

The Democratic presidential candidate says Congress needs to investigate how the United States ended up in a war that he says was not connected to any threat by al-Qaida. The retired four-star general says Bush misled the nation into waging a war it didn't have to. Whether that was criminal, he says, is a question Congress needs to ask.*


Meanwhile, Republicans are complaining that Clark's anti-war statements are inconsistent with what he's said in the past. The Republican National Committee has released excerpts from Clark's testimony in 2002 before the House Armed Services Committee in which he called Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein a clear threat. [/b][/quote]

[Blizzard]

If you can't debate without getting personal I will have to send you to timeout like I do with my kindergartners.

[T-bone]

No timeouts - up the warning levels.

People, this isn't a battlefield. Just talk and be respectful and there's never a problem.

[Marbleman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Al Gore was actually elected president. GWB wasn't. He and his brother fixed that though didn't they.[/b][/quote]

Bush won the electoral vote because he won in Florida. You can say the Supreme Court “stole” the election by stopping them from continuing to recount the votes, but months later they finished and it showed that Bush in fact won, I think it was something like 2,000 votes. Gore won the popular national vote, but everyone knows that doesn’t matter. I will agree that the election was nuts because of the fervor put into that one state (Remember Tim Russert: “. . . Florida, Tom.”).

Interesting bit of info, according to the Palm Beach Post some 5,600 or so convicted felons’ votes were not disqualified! 68% of them were registered Dems though, so if it helped anyone, it helped Gore. Just to show you how lenient things got down there. We still like to rag my bucko Chad and his hanging adventures in the Sunshine State.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Marbleman, what does all your research tell you about Enron?[/b][/quote]

Rub a dub dub!
Three men in a tub.
Karl, Dick, and Ken Lay,
The robber barons of our day!

[maddog62]

He switched teams faster then Roger Clemens. I wouldn't take anything W. Clark says seriously and you being a good Democrat you shouldn't either. The 8 other democratic canidates have been fighting this arguement for weeks. I don't need to say a word.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The Democratic presidential candidate says Congress needs to investigate how the United States ended up in a war that he says was not connected to any threat by al-Qaida. [/b][/quote] He also said:

In excerpts posted on the Republican National Committee Web site, the former NATO (news - web sites) commander described Saddam to the House Armed Services Committee on Sept. 26, 2002, as a threat who already had chemical and biological weapons and was seeking nuclear arms.



"It needs to be dealt with and the clock is ticking on this," Clark was quoted as telling committee members six months before U.S. forces invaded Iraq last March.


He also told lawmakers that a U.S. president was justified in taking military action without U.N. approval, just as NATO forces did in Kosovo under his command.

Listen to General Wesley Clark in his own voice support GWB on action in Iraq:
http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark1-D...trine-11026.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark1-Doctrine-11026.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark1-D...trine-11026.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark1-Doctrine-11026.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark1-D...trine-11026.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark1-Doctrine-11026.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark4-M...volent-1912.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark4-Malevolent-1912.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark5-P...tponed-2130.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark5-Postponed-2130.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark6-P...mptive-2802.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark6-Preemptive-2802.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark7-E...chelon-3443.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark7-Echelon-3443.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark8-B...Actors-5422.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark8-BadActors-5422.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark9-O...ations-2409.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark9-Observations-2409.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark10-...Table-12847.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark10-CardTable-12847.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark11-...spRisk-2604.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark11-InspRisk-2604.mp3)

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark12-...UNFail-2630.mp3 (http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/Clark12-UNFail-2630.mp3)

general says Bush misled the nation into waging a war and he is know misleading the nation that he was not all for it.

[goodwije]

I would have to agree with MD62 that some liberal politics are socialistic in nature. Although most of my friends who are liberal would disagree with that statement. I know for a fact i have many democratic socialist leanings. Things like pro-union, pro-workers rights, lower taxes for middle class, protections guaranteed into laws for minorities, fair housing, open discussion, disestblishmentarianism and unlimited free speech are very important to me..

[maddog62]

Originally posted by goodwije@Jan 17 2004, 02:33 PM
I would have to agree with MD62 that some liberal politics are socialistic in nature. Although most of my friends who are liberal would disagree with that statement. I know for a fact i have many democratic socialist leanings. Things like pro-union, pro-workers rights, lower taxes for middle class, protections guaranteed into laws for minorities, fair housing, open discussion, disestblishmentarianism and unlimited free speech are very important to me..
I was not taking a pop shot at him I just was best trying to describe his oppostition to the war without actually knowing what his political aligences are. I didn't think he would be so offended but I guess I was warned. that is what I don't understand and the results kind of proove my point. Goodwije thanks for the benifit of the doubt and the support.

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by goodwije@Jan 17 2004, 09:33 AM
I would have to agree with MD62 that some liberal politics are socialistic in nature. Although most of my friends who are liberal would disagree with that statement. I know for a fact i have many democratic socialist leanings. Things like pro-union, pro-workers rights, lower taxes for middle class, protections guaranteed into laws for minorities, fair housing, open discussion, disestblishmentarianism and unlimited free speech are very important to me..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>disestblishmentarianism [/b][/quote]

I'm not trying to provoke you or anything goodwije; I respect you alot because you consider issues individually rather than subscribing to groupthink (for instance, your support for Bush's Space Program initiative even though you oppose him on many other things). Anyone using his or her own judgement to perforate the extensive simplifications being held up by both sides is all right in my book. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

I've heard that term "disestablishmentarianism" and it usually means an opposition to an established order, government. I'm just curious as to the nature of the word in your sentence. Are you opposed to this administration in particular or the United States' government system in general? Its just that I was with you up to that point (although I'm also not so big on unions, but that's just my experience).

Clark has made some strange statements but I don't think he's nearly as dreadful as Dean. Policies and character are major factors for me in the Democratic nominations, and Dean has neither of those. That's right, I just besmirched Dean's character. Here's one reason why:

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/14/elec04.prez.dean.bosnia/index.html)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>*
But in 1995, Dean urged President Clinton to use American warplanes to support the embattled Bosnian Muslim government during that country's three-year civil war, according to a letter published Wednesday in USA Today.

Campaign spokesman Jay Carson said Wednesday that Dean opposed the Iraq war "because it was the wrong war at the wrong time, not because he believes military force should never be used."

Carson told CNN that Dean believes the United States should "always strive to act multilaterally."

In 1995, he told Clinton that it was "no longer possible" to act in conjunction with the NATO allies or the United Nations, and "I have reluctantly concluded that we must take unilateral action."

The civil war among Bosnia's Muslim, Croat and Serb populations was Europe's bloodiest conflict since the end of World War II, and Dean said the United States risked its moral credibility if it did not take action there.
[/b][/quote]

His support for the ousting of the Taliban was different altogether because it was a direct response to the attacks of September 11. But it seems to me, politically expedient if you will, that Dean makes exception for one instance of U.S. unilateral intervention and decries another. So what if it was a larger conflict, if the bottom line was the "bloodiness" of the situation? Was Saddam's regime "bloody?" It was, so I guess we risked our moral credibility for not taking action there for so long.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

My prediction was that Dean would get the Democratic Presidential Nomination and would take either Clark or Bradley as a running mate. I'm beginning to have hope that I'm wrong.

[Manowan]

I wonder what lies and misleading statements GW will spout tomorrow night. Anything to try to steal thunder from the Dems.


The President is "a f---ing liar." - Moby

"We don't want eight more years of a Colon, a Bush and a D--- [Cheney]." -Chuck D.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan@Jan 19 2004, 10:19 PM
I wonder what lies and misleading statements GW will spout tomorrow night. Anything to try to steal thunder from the Dems.


The President is "a f---ing liar." - Moby

"We don't want eight more years of a Colon, a Bush and a D--- [Cheney]." -Chuck D.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif
Rock stars know best.

[Angel Starmaster]

<span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%">AAUUGGHH!!!</span>

What the heck are we talking about here anyway?? This isn't a presidential debate thread! That's in here elsewhere. Want to argur about Bush, and the government, go there! But for crying out loud, please PLEASE, can we get back on topic?

In case you missed it, this is The new 9/11 thread.

"Stay on Topic..."

"I can't shake him!"

"Stay on Topic..."

"Argh! I got hit with a Presidential Debate! I'm going down! AIIEEE!!!"

BOOM!

[Greedo Boy]

You need that Attached Image that the mods always post when we get a bit far afield from the topic at hand...

[Blizzard]

http://www.galacticsenate.com/uploads/post-22-1063545963.jpg

[Manowan]

You know what Starmaster you are correct. Will someone point me to the political debate thread.

Back on topic.

As I have stated before, I work in NYC, on Sept 11 I saw the first plane fly downtown and into the North Tower. When I leave my office, I can look down 5th avenue and still see the big gap where the towers used to be and the Deutch building that has been suffering from the mold infestation since that day. I look forward to looking downtown and seeing the new Freedom tower coming up.

I saw the entrance for the new path station down there a couple of weeks ago. It's beautiful. I was very glad to see the words "World Trade Center Path Station" in big letters.

What does everyone think of the final plans for the new buildings and memorial?

http://www.renewnyc.com/

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Manowan@Jan 20 2004, 04:03 PM
You know what Starmaster you are correct. Will someone point me to the political debate thread.

Back on topic.

As I have stated before, I work in NYC, on Sept 11 I saw the first plane fly downtown and into the North Tower. When I leave my office, I can look down 5th avenue and still see the big gap where the towers used to be and the Deutch building that has been suffering from the mold infestation since that day. I look forward to looking downtown and seeing the new Freedom tower coming up.

I saw the entrance for the new path station down there a couple of weeks ago. It's beautiful. I was very glad to see the words "World Trade Center Path Station" in big letters.

What does everyone think of the final plans for the new buildings and memorial?

http://www.renewnyc.com/
I can respect this.

[T-bone]

quote of the day:

"If two gay guys want to get married, I couldn't care less. It's their business. If some foreigner wants to blow their wedding up, I want my government to eliminate him." --- Dennis Miller.

[goodwije]

gotta love that guy.

[T-bone]

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P...EMPLATE=DEFAULT (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PAKISTAN_NUCLEAR_DETENTIONS?SITE=NJASB&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

[Marbleman]

Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names.

[T-bone]

http://story.news