Disappearing Jedi

[Jedi Ulic]

I was reading a draft script of ROTJ that I found on the “Starkiller” site and came across some startling revelations that could prove that the Skywalker’s are the ones responsible for the return of people from the dead. This quote, although it didn’t happen in the film, shows how Lucas is thinking.
.

“Luke looks up to see a shimmering, translucent image of Yoda standing in the tiny cell with him. Luke is startled by the vision.

LUKE
Yoda?

YODA
Ben can no longer help you. His power to stay in the netherworld has been spent. He will soon be one with the Force. His identity lost forever.

LUKE
No, help him. Bring him back…

YODA
Only you can draw him back to the material world. Stop your anger.

LUKE
How, I can’t…

YODA

You can’t, because that is what you think. Have you learned nothing?”



Then the mighty Skywalker actually succeeds in bringing Ben back from the dead!

“LUKE
Ben…

Slowly, the hooded figure looks up, revealing his face. It is Ben Kenobi in the flesh.

BEN
I could no longer stay in the netherworld.

LUKE
But Yoda said…

BEN
…that I would become one with the Force and choose not to return to the material world? That your anger prevented me from…

LUKE
But I’m not angry…not anymore…I understand why you didn’t tell me about my father. I do.

BEN

I know. And I am here to help you destroy the Emperor, and…your father.”


Finally they all come back to life, and it seems that Yoda may be able to do it too.

“In the revised rough draft (Scene 138, Luke talks to Ben, and then)…Yoda suddenly appears as flesh and blood. *His stay in the Netherworld has been resolved since Vader has turned to the good side. *Yoda also has been able to prevent Vader from becoming one with the Force. *Luke’s father appears, and they all join the celebration, except for Yoda, who watches them all from the side…” * -L. Bouzerau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 320.”


It seems that Luke can only perform this through the good side ie. when not angry. In AOTC, Anakin starts to do it with Qui-Gon but maybe through the Dark Side ie. when angry.
This may be how their fates are decided, Luke draws his strength from the good side and Anakin from the bad. That is why Luke is ultimately stronger than his father (this script makes several references that Luke is the stronger of the two).
This is why Vader was so surprised that Kenobi disappeared, he thought that he was the only one that could make people disappear. He had no idea that his son was so close by.
Perhaps Anakin will bring Qui-Gon back to life in the next film. Who knows?

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Jedi Ulic@Aug. 11 2002 - 13:32
This is why Vader was so surprised that Kenobi disappeared, he thought that he was the only one that could make people disappear. He had no idea that his son was so close by.
Perhaps Anakin will bring Qui-Gon back to life in the next film. Who knows?
That's interesting. In the past, I never really thought much about the whole disappearing aspect. But after reading what you've posted here, the stuff in the "A (The?) key to the Star Wars saga ?", and hearing that Lucas himself has said it'll come up in epIII, I'm starting to look at the movies differently. I was already looking forward to epIII, but I think I'm a lot more excited now.

[Justin]

Obi-Wan knew he was going to be able to come back after he died, so the idea that the Skywalkers are responsible doesn't hold water.

[Khayman]

There was a really good article about all this posted on here a while ago, but I can't find the actual link anymore. I do however have a copy of it so i'm posting here. I can't remeber who posted it or anything, but all creds to them and none to me style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
----------------
The Key to the Star Wars saga!

Prophecy, disappearing Jedi, blue ghosts, Dark Side, all of this is explained in this article!

The theory pesented here was born from the prolific minds of StarWars-Universe.com forum members. It’s a global synthesis of the Star Wars saga build around Anakin Skywalker’s powers by Halpheus, a SWU staff member, and by many other forum members like General Kenobi.

I advise people who don’t want to know what will happen in the next movie or risk spoiling what could possibly change our vision of the saga not to read what follows, which is still just a theory.

What follows is more than likely, considering the depth of thought, and could change your perception of the Star Wars saga forever. You have been warned! We’ll talk about the Force, the prophecy, Jedi who disappear and reappear after their death, all of this explained... Enough with introductions, let’s get to the heart of the matter.

1. The two Forces governing the Universe

The Prequels have incredibly widened the concept of the Force as we knew it in the Old Trilogy. More than an energy field binding all biological (ANH) and mineral (ESB) things in the Galaxy, since TPM the Force is divided into two components: the Living Force (LF) and the Unifying Force (UF). These two Forces are integrated differently by individuals according to their personality, their philosophy, and of course their midichlorian count.

This is how George Lucas defined the LF and the UF in the book "The Making of Episode I The Phantom Menace" (p.8-9):

« The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people’s minds, et cetera. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it, or not. »

According to what we learn in the prequels, we can thus define the LF as the sensible component, the consciousness of the individual, the "I", and the UF as the intelligible component, the collective consciousness, the "We". The Jedi Council illustrates perfectly this philosophy.

Taking the LF to extremes, we have what can be called a corruption of this Force: the Dark Side, where personal feelings come before the common good and where one uses close interaction (mind tricks - accepted by the Code when they’re not for personal goals -, Force choke, lightning, etc).

We can sum up the different concepts in this diagram:


/\
I->Pure Unifying Force (We)
I
I
I
I
I
I
I->Jedi Order
I
=>>Balance of the Forces: Anakin and Luke at the end of ROTJ
I
I->Qui Gon Jinn
I
I->Dooku
I
I->Darth Vader
I->Palpatine
I
I >Pure Living Force (I)
\/


The meaning of the famous prophecy becomes now evident: to balance the LF and the UF, to achieve the common good without forgetting one’s personality. This will be a particularity of the new Jedi order (the post-ROTJ era, not the book series) born with Anakin and Luke Skywalker. By not listening to Yoda in ESB, when he was advised to concentrate on the fight against the Empire and forget his suffering friends, Luke managed to reach a balance between the two Forces, and the notion of Chosen One connected to Anakin takes all its importance when he kills Palpatine and the Sith Order, the primary source of the unbalance.

One has to notice the irony of the situation: it is Yoda himself, with his conservative doctrine, who taught Dooku - and thus Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin in turn - the very source of the unbalance pushed at its height during the Empire.

Now that we have explained the concept of the prophecy and the definition of the Force, we’ll use this to enlighten the remaining dark spots of the Star Wars saga.

2. The cremation of Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM

Before TPM was released, the common belief was that Jedi don’t die like everybody: they disappear and come back as blue ghosts afterwards. All of the Jedi of the Old Trilogy were seen dying that way, even Anakin: according to official declarations, Luke burned an empty armour at the end of ROTJ. Then came TPM and Qui-Gon’s non-disappearance and cremation. This coupled with the incineration of Vader’s armour in ROTJ leads to the conclusion that cremation was traditional in the Jedi Order, and that the disappearing/reappearing phenomenon was unknown before the time of ANH. Moreover, we don’t see any Jedi disappear on Geonosis.

3. Qui-Gon Jinn’s voice in AOTC

Just as Luke first hears Obi-Wan in ANH, then sees him in following episodes, Anakin first hears Qui-Gon Jinn’s voice during the Tusken massacre scene.

At the same moment, Yoda is meditating in his quarters of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, more precisely he’s probing the Dark Side. He also hears this voice and doesn’t believe his pointy ears, as is explained in the AOTC novelization p.276:

« It was Qui-Gon. Yoda knew it was Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon was dead, had become one with the Force! One could not retain consciousness and sense of self in that state; one could not speak from beyond the grave. »

This confirms our previous conclusions. A few lines later, we can read:

« Anakin’s rush of agony manifesting in the Force had tapped into the spirit of the dead Jedi Master who had discovered him. »

We can now see a connection between the LF in its most extreme and even perverted form — the Dark side — and Anakin, the Chosen One, the materialization of the Force in flesh and blood.

4. Anakin’s confession to Padmé

This is what the future Vader tells to his love:

« I will even learn to stop people from dying! »

This element, added to the previous thoughts, shows a scenaristic connection between Anakin and the disappearing/reappearing-after-death phenomenon. At this point of the story, he’s the only one able to do such a thing. In fact, he has already done it with Qui-Gon without realizing.
One can wonder: « Why Qui-Gon? ». Because Anakin had a very particular relationship with his first teacher, an absolute trust, which is very rare in his life torn between the separation from his loving mother and the rigidity of the Jedi Order. The only persons who really believed in Anakin are Shmi, Qui-Gon and Padmé. Even Obi-Wan doesn’t have such a strong relationship with Anakin. He’s seen in indirect conflict with Anakin in TPM, when Qui-Gon decides to leave his Padawan to teach little Ani, and in constant doubt of his Padawan’s abilities in AOTC.

5. What could happen in Episode III and the Final Edition of the Old Trilogy

This is what George Lucas recently told to the magazine Starlog about Qui-Gon’s voice in AOTC:

« That’s a fan thing, isn’t it? It’s actually more than that. It’s a plot point. All I can really say is that you’ll find out [more] in the next film. If you thought really hard, you would probably be able to figure it out, but it really is a set-up for the next film. It’s connected with the whole ability to be brought into and become a part of the Force, but still be able to retain YOUR ability — which, up to this point, Anakin couldn’t do. »

So this power should be controllable, or at least Anakin could take a conscious part in it in the future. One important thing to remember when we talk about Anakin is that we’re not talking about a simple human, but a mystic being, a sort of god come down on earth. As Lucas says, at this point of the story, he doesn’t control his potential, his nature takes precedence over his conscious will, his personality. In Episode III, this will be reversed and he will dominate the will of the Force, which isn’t something exterior to his being like for the other Jedi, but a part of his essence. From then on, he will actually be able to bring back from the dead anyone he wants. It is perfectly possible he will voluntarily bring back Qui-Gon as a ghost in Episode III, and Padmé and/or Shmi at the end of the Final Edition of ROTJ that Lucas will correct after 2005. But even if this doesn’t happen, this theory stands anyway.

6. Obi-Wan’s words and his death

« If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. »

According to Lucas, this sentence is the key of the problem, and indeed it meets perfectly the present theory. After he said this, Obi-Wan looks at Luke from the corner of his eye, lifts his lightsabre, and Vader kills him. Obi-Wan then disappears, and Luke, distressed by his master’s death, hears his voice telling him to run away.
It is perfectly possible that Anakin’s power was naturally passed down to Luke. While Anakin is of divine essence, a god come down on earth, Luke appears as a demi-god, inheriting half of his father’s divine essence and thus taking part in the prophecy.
Obi-Wan’s little smile to Luke before his death is eloquent: the extreme trust that exists between them added to Luke’s emotional distress caused Obi-Wan’s rebirth, just as it happened for Anakin and Qui-Gon in AOTC. Obi-Wan knew he could count on Luke to bring him back from the dead (he will become aware of this phenomenon in Episode III or from Yoda’s words at the end of Episode II). The Jedi master has a passive role, he doesn’t disappear from his own will, but thanks to Luke’s unconscious.
As for the reason this should make him more powerful than we can ever imagine: it is probably thanks to this "half-death" that Luke managed to destroy the Death Star and continue his formation under Yoda and finally destroy the Empire.

After Obi-Wan disappeared, Vader trampled his cloak. It could be interpreted as a gesture of contempt, but more probably of surprise. He wants to check if he hasn’t seen things for two reasons: first because he has never seen any Jedi disappear like that — Qui-Gon had a "normal" death — and secondly because he thought he, the "son" of the Force, was the only one able to achieve this miracle.

Then Luke shouts the famous "Noooooo!", and Darth Vader goes to the door to see who is screaming, obviously someone close to Obi-Wan. Thinking back on Obi-Wan’s disappearance, maybe Vader realizes at that moment that this person could be his offspring, the only being capable of this miracle apart from him. Then the door closes on Vader. From a scenaristic point of view, one can even say that this shot is useless if this theory proves wrong.

7. The other two ghosts: Yoda and Anakin

In ROTJ, Yoda dies in front of Luke. It looks almost as if he was waiting for Luke to finally die, and just like Obi-Wan, Yoda disappears thanks to the son of the Chosen One.
As for Anakin, his disappearing and reappearing as a ghost can be linked either to Luke, or to himself, or both.
Here again we can see that the phenomenon is not induced by the disappearing Jedi, but by the Force residing in Luke and Anakin. On a larger scale, Anakin and Luke don’t need to invoke the Force, because they are the Force, whereas other Force-users need a connection with the targeted person and a precise intent to use the Force. This is why Vader feels Luke’s presence near Endor, while the Emperor does not.

8. The true nature of the Dark side

We explained at the beginning of this article that the Dark Side is a perversion of the sensible extreme of the Force: the LF. We know that the Force is essential to life, and vice versa. Therefore, the ultimate perversion of the Force is the breaking of the cycle of life. Anakin is at the origin of this breaking: while nature wants people to come to life and die, Anakin opposes this basic pattern of life, which explains how Yoda can hear Qui-Gon’s voice in AOTC while he was probing the Dark Side. In the same way, the rebirth phenomenon caused unconsciously by Luke and Anakin is connected to their emotional distress, i.e the LF.
This breaking of the pattern of life seems inspired by the theme of the Grail, the cup that received the blood of Christ and which is said to give eternal life to whoever drinks in it. Just as Luke achieved his quest in the Old Trilogy (in three aspects at least: the quest of the father, of his redemption and of his duality), Anakin is at the origin of this quest because of his divine nature.

9. A ghost can’t appear in the presence of the Dark Side

An element seems to contradict the present theory: Obi-Wan’s statement in ESB, when he says he won’t be able to come and help Luke on Bespin. In fact, this fits with the theory more than it contradicts it.
We’ve seen that the Dark Side is an extreme and perverted form of the LF, and that the ghostly reapparition of dead Jedi (in this particular case Obi-Wan) is also connected to this LF. Since the Dark side is a perversion of the LF, it simply smothers the existing LF. It is thus impossible for a Jedi to appear as a ghost in the presence of the Dark Side. This speculation is confirmed by a rough script of ROTJ where Vader seemed particularly surprised to see Obi-Wan’s ghost appear in front of him.

10. Conclusion

The theory presented here seems more than likely, in our opinion: nothing seems to contradict it, and many details from the movies and quotes from Lucas fit in.
If this theory proves correct, the very nature of the Star Wars saga, including the Old Trilogy, will be altered. Rewatching the movies with this theory in mind really modifies our perception of it.
Now, if anyone still dares to question the quality of the prequels’ scenario, let him speak out!

As a last word, remember that Rick McCallum himself, the producer of the prequel trilogy, has recently declared that even he didn’t know what was the significance of the disappearing Jedi, and that Lucas wouldn’t tell him a word of it before Episode III. If this theory proves right, you will be able to tell your grandchildren that you learned this first on SWU! :o)

[Darth Badly]

Sorry but I don't buy a word of any of this nonsence.

It's never been even remotely hinted in any of the five films that Luke/Anakin/anyone can bring people back from the netherworld. To throw that into the mix in the last film of six when it hasn't featured at all (and is a very silly idea) would be very poor in my view.

I love you all.

[Jedi Ulic]

[It's never been even remotely hinted in any of the five films that Luke/Anakin/anyone can bring people back from the netherworld. To throw that into the mix in the last film of six when it hasn't featured at all (and is a very silly idea) would be very poor in my view.]

Yoda's surprise at Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC is the first hint. Anakin saying that he will even learn to stop people from dying is the next. Lucas has called it a major plot point as well. I feel that this will be something that will be more than just touched upon in Ep III.

[Martini]

I'm siding with Darth Badly on this one. So many people who like star wars and saw AOTC never even heard Qui-Gons voice and have never thought this much into the disappearing thing. Most people who have seen these movies dont even put the connection that everyone in the OT disappeared and that everyone in this trilody hasnt. Its not a big deal and doesnt need to be explained in thorough. all we and normal viewers need is a simple explaination. it probably has nothing to do with anakin/vader.

[Zane Marit]

I did hear Qui Gons voice in AOTC...and I for one am also interested in knowing why some are seen after they die...I just hope that its not some plot for the sake of plot silly reason...Something short sweet and to the point will do just fine by me.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Jedi Ulic@Aug. 12 2002 - 09:25
Yoda's surprise at Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC is the first hint. Anakin saying that he will even learn to stop people from dying is the next. Lucas has called it a major plot point as well. I feel that this will be something that will be more than just touched upon in Ep III.
You're right the voice was there in AOTC but I didn't read much importance into it at the time I saw it. You could hardly hear it. Plus, as we now (abet from the stand point of future knowledge) that if Obi Wan can appear as a special effects ghost, why shouldn't we hear that voice from what-ever-his-silly-name-was from TPM. I always thoght that really powerful Jedi like Yoda / Obi Wan (by the time of the original trilogy) did disappear, while younger piss poor Jedi who get killed easily by second rate villains who can't even talk, don't.

If Lucus really makes "stopping people dying" a big part if Ep III then it'll be pure crap. The whole virgin birth / god son / chosen one stuff is the worst thing in TPM.

It's just a very silly teenage fantasy ie if you are very powerful with the force then no one you love will ever die. And it leads to all kinds of dumb questions.

Is Lucus really going to say that apart from those people that die near a Skywalker there is no other afterlife in the SW universe? What kind of bleak picture does that paint? That although we have this whole force thing, there's no god, no afterlife, no ghosts, OTHER than those generated by Skywalker or the son of Skywalker?

Think this idea through, dudes. It's bollocks.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Justin@Aug. 11 2002 - 23:18
Obi-Wan knew he was going to be able to come back after he died, so the idea that the Skywalkers are responsible doesn't hold water.
Absolutely.

It's clear from the way the whole sequence is shot that Obi Wan has no fear of death because it won't be the end for him.

Vader prods his cloak after he's gone, just to be sure. If he could do this himself ie it was his presence that caused people not to die, then he'd have to look really pissed off at that point along the lines of: "Darn it! While I Darth Vader have been trying to kill Obi Wan for the last ten minutes, I forgot that if someone I care about of used to care about dies near me they won't really die properly but be reborn as themselves but kinda as a ghost. Doh!"

Even if you're gonna argue that it's Luke love of Ben (and not Vader's) that somehow kept Ben as Ben after he died, Vader would still at the moment think he'd done it and that would be pretty dumb.

[Justin]

His line "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" shows that he knew he was going to come back after he died.

Lucas said that Yoda and Obi-Wan find a way to come back from the dead between Episode III and Episode IV, and I doubt it has anything to do with their relationship to Luke.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Justin@Aug. 12 2002 - 15:37
His line "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" shows that he knew he was going to come back after he died.

Lucas said that Yoda and Obi-Wan find a way to come back from the dead between Episode III and Episode IV, and I doubt it has anything to do with their relationship to Luke.
I'd take issue with the language people are using here, because I've never looked at their appearences as ghosts as "coming back from the dead". They're not. They're still blooming dead.

They're ghosts.

[Saranac]

There is a difference between being dead and being dead as a ghost.

Not everyone dies and becomes a ghost.

[Darth Badly]

We've only seen a couple of people Obi / Yoda / & Anakin as ghosts.

My point was that people were talking about them "coming back from the dead". They didn't. When we saw them they were still dead. They were ghosts.

[Saranac]

Yes you are correct they might have been ghosts but they were still dead.

[Jedi Ulic]

"You're right the voice was there in AOTC but I didn't read much importance into it at the time I saw it. *You could hardly hear it. *Plus, as we now (abet from the stand point of future knowledge) that if Obi Wan can appear as a special effects ghost, why shouldn't we hear that voice from what-ever-his-silly-name-was from TPM. *I always thoght that really powerful Jedi like Yoda / Obi Wan (by the time of the original trilogy) did disappear, while younger piss poor Jedi who get killed easily by second rate villains who can't even talk, don't"

I fear that you not reading much importance into it does not change the fact that according to the AOTC novel Yoda was shocked by hearing the voice as once a Jedi is dead, he is dead. They do not (at least at that time) come back in any way shape or form. The fact that you could hardly hear it does not make it any less significant. Just because you "always thought" that some disappear and some don't doesn't change the fact that Lucas indicates that it is a MAJOR plot point.
As for Kenobi knowing he was going to come back, that's because he knew that Luke would bring him back.
I doubt Vader had to stand on the cloak to make sure he was dead, it was rather obvious!
Anakin only said that he would learn to stop people from dying, we don't know that he succeeds. Perhaps he only gets as far as bringing them back in ghost form.
Anyway, I'm only going on what Lucas has written. He is the one who decides who comes back, how far they come back and why.



"His line "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" shows that he knew he was going to come back after he died."

Yes, but why was he going to come back after he died? There must be an explanation and the one I have given is more likely than any other. That some are stronger than others in the force is surely a bit lame? Lucas has gone down the road of making Anakin (and subsequently Luke) some sort of God like figure. There must be something that sets the Skywalkers apart from Yoda and Mace (amongst others) as so far we have seen nothing to indicate that they are any more powerful than normal Jedi.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Darth Badly@Aug. 12 2002 - 20:08
We've only seen a couple of people Obi / Yoda / & Anakin as ghosts.

My point was that people were talking about them "coming back from the dead". *They didn't. *When we saw them they were still dead. *They were ghosts.
That's true. They are dead. I wouldn't describe them as having come back from the dead.

It is true, though, that in all three deaths, Luke was present. So it's possible that the disappearing upon death does have something to do with a Skywalker being present. I'm not saying Anakin and Luke were gods, but just that they might have great importance to, or a great influence on, the Force. Possible, maybe?

[catwmnjedi]

Interesting theories. And yes, there are people who have thought about this. Ever since TPM I wondered the same thing when Qui-Gon died and didn't disappear.

One thing I wonder (now that we know not all Jedi disappear)... why did Yoda? After he disappeared, he didn't re-appear and we didn't hear his voice speak to Luke. All he did was show up for the party at the end of ROTJ. If Luke somehow controlled this, why didn't Yoda's ability to linger in the material world provide useful? Just wondering what the point to Yoda's disappearing was, if any.

When I first heard Anakin's comment about preventing people from dying, I assumed he meant by mechanical means... like all the contraptions he ends up with as Darth Vader that keep him alive and able to walk around. I didn't consider the force-re-appearing thing. Only Jedi can do the force materialization, not regular people, at least as far as we know.

Still, it's interesting. I always felt like it was initiated by the person dying because Obi-Wan seems like he falls into a meditation right before Vader slices him. Maybe the ability is controlled by the Jedi dying, but they need a connection to another Jedi still living (ie, Luke) and the desire/need to call on the skill just before death. That doesn't explain why Qui-Gon didn't stay connected to Anakin, unless he trusted Obi-Wan enough to do the job and didn't feel the need.

Guess we'll find out in a few years.

[Patrick]

I think we're getting a little complicated about this whole thing.

First off, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" has always, for the past 25 years, sounded an awful lot like "I know something you don't know!" Vader steps on Ben's cloak because he's stunned at what he's just seen and is trying to make sure he's not just seeing things. It's an illogical, normal reaction to seeing the unthinkable. Vader cut a guy's head off and the guy VANISHED before his eyes. That's obviously not an easy thing to process. So he steps on Ben's cloak, because that's his first reaction... like it's gonna do any good, but still. It's an honest initial reaction to seeing something that one's mind cannot immediately process.

Last September when I watched the second WTC tower fall live as it happened, my first reaction was to instinctively reach out for the tower on my TV set as if to hold it up... like it's gonna do any good, right? A completely illogical response, but perfectly normal for somebody who is witnessing the unthinkable.

Vader didn't know what Ben did. It wasn't something that he himself had any experience with. It was a Force ability which was only available to those who had embraced the good side of the Force. Vader's own Dark Side abilities were far too coarse and ego-driven for him to be able to conceive of something like what he saw happening as Ben died.

Yes, Anakin in AOTC says "I will even learn to stop people from dying." I don't see this, however, as evidence that he some how helps to originate the ability to maintain consciousness after death. I see it as evidence of his almost pathological bent towards attachment. It shows how close he is to the Dark Side already. Remember, Yoda and Ki Adi Mundi and the rest of the council sensed in Anakin his attachment to his mother. "Afraid to lose her, hmm?" In other words, Anakin has an innate inability to accept "The way of things... the way of the Force." He RAGES against the fact that people die, and not only does he refuse to accept the reality of his mother's dying (even though his presence allowed her to pass away in peace) but he goes so far as to essentially say "I will become so powerful as to reverse the natural order of things and prevent death."

This is all about his slide into darkness. For Anakin and his inability to accept the natural rhythm of life to be the source of the ability for Ben and Yoda to remain conscious and cohesive after death would tend to make that ability a by-product of the dark side and the emotions thereof. The problem with this, of course, is that the resolution of the entire conflict at the end of ROTJ shows Anakin, Yoda, and Ben standing there content... and visible. In order for this to be the signal that everything's okay and that Luke has resolved the conflict, the ability to maintain spirit form HAS to be purely an element of the good side of the Force.

The idea that Ben relied on Luke's anguish, anger, and (at the core of these emotions) fear in order to retain a spirit form would merely legitimize the base emotions from which the Dark Side stems, and this has never been an element of the SW story... and I can't see it suddenly becoming one now. The disappearance/spirit body thing MUST be shown to be an indication of a strong tie with the good side of the Force, otherwise the story itself doesn't really make much sense.

YMMV...

[Justin]

Ben and Yoda did not die. Their bodies died, but their spirits lived on. Lol, that sounds so cheesy. But it's true.

[Darth Badly]

Justin - their bodies sure died - ie stopped existing. I agree their spirits lived on, but as special effect ghosts.

They're still all DEAD.

[Master Jason]

I like the theory and it hasn't been disproven yet, but it will be interesting to see how far GL goes into it. I think the novelization will explain it a lot better.

[maddog62]

Luminous being we are not this crude matter.

[Justin]

Their bodies died, but their souls/spirits/identities or what-have-you did not.

So you have to ask yourself; what is it that makes you who you are? Your body or your conciousness?

[Jedi Ulic]

The fact still remains that GL wrote a script that stated that only Luke could bring Ben back. I know that this wasn't in the final version but he wrote it after ESB, why would he put it in at all if he hadn't already made his mind up about the whole subject. I'm pretty sure he had already decided why Jedi disappear when he wrote ANH. He is the only one who knows exactly why they disappear and he wrote that Luke was the one who was responsible for it. I haven't read anything here that could convince me otherwise.

[Strke Brelk]

I'm a little unsure about Anakin's death. I thought someone asked GL himself once and he said than Anakin DID NOT disapear at the end of ROTJ. That the whole body was burned in the pyre scene. I know this question has been raised before.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Jedi Ulic@Aug. 15 2002 - 09:25
The fact still remains that GL wrote a script that stated that only Luke could bring Ben back. I know that this wasn't in the final version but he wrote it after ESB, why would he put it in at all if he hadn't already made his mind up about the whole subject. I'm pretty sure he had already decided why Jedi disappear when he wrote ANH. He is the only one who knows exactly why they disappear and he wrote that Luke was the one who was responsible for it. I haven't read anything here that could convince me otherwise.
Well, if he puts that idea in Episode III then Lucus will turn the whole of Star Wars into a laughing stock.

It'll be even worse than the virgin birth stuff in TPM.

[Javen]

i completley hope dsipappearing Jediremains somewhat of a mystery.Everything doesnt need explained useing your imagination is cool to

[maddog62]

Could Darth Bane have something to do with Jedi Ghosts?

[Lonesabre]

The way I see it is that because Anakin is the chosen one and he has the highest midi-chlorian count of all force users, he pocesses the ability to help others retain their identities after death - altough he himself may not know this fact. I also believe that these force spirits cannot actually appear infront of Anakin/Vader.

I think that in EPIII Yoda discovers what power Anakin really does pocess. He works this out after hearing Qui-Gons voice in AOTC, and any possible reappearance of the fallen Jedi in EPIII.

There are several quotes from the OT that go some way to backing up this theory.

Kenobi "Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibley imagine..."

I take this as meaning that Yoda has already discovered Anakins hidden power and that he has told Kenobi about it.

The fact that Anakin doesnt know about his power is backed up with the reaction of stamping on Kenobis cloak after he disappears. Surely if Anakin/Vader knew what he was doing, there'd be no reason to do this.

On Dagohbah in TESB when look rushes off to help his friends, Kenobi appears and tells him that if he goes to face Vader he cannot help him. This, for me, is because Kenobi, being a spirit cannot appear infront of the Person, Anakin, that created him.

Another quote could be from ROTJ, Luke -"Master Yoda you cant die"

Yoda - "Strong am I with the force, but not that strong..."

In other words not even Master Yoda has the ability to bring himself back to life unlike Anakin does. We already know that Anakin has a higher midi-chlorian count than Yoda does, so too does Luke then, presumeabley.

It seems to make sense but the reasons behind it I am unsure of. Im also unsure if this would mean a person has to be in Anakins presence to be able to reappear {Kenobi} or have just met him and had some influence on his life {Qui-Gon and Yoda}. Or for anopther matter whether the son of the chosen one, Luke, has this power also. To this effect would it matter if a spirit is being created by the Dark Side [Anakin} or the Light Side {Luke}? Who knows? Only Lucas, thats for sure.

Too...many...unanswered...questions..... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

[maddog62]

patients you must have patients

[Jedi D'oh]

here is my personal theory.......

it has nothing to do with the skywalkers or any untapped/hidden potential in anakin. when yoda hears qui-gons voice, he is suprised. jedi arent supposed to be able to maintain their presence after they die.

ok, bear with me now.....before ben gets struck down, he seems to meditate for a moment. in TPM qui-gon did the same thing before his final clash with Maul. i think he knew he was going to die there, and, being so in touch with the living force, was able to set himself up to retain his identity.

yoda and ben, being the last 2 jedi, also know this. perhaps they have figured out a meditation process right before death that lets them remain in the living force stream for a brief time.

im not saying that only ben and yoda are privy to this info, but scince all the jedi are wiped out, there must be a brief meditation process and suden death just does not allow the time. plus, most of the jedi are set in their ways and probably would not believe the identity retention is possible and discount it.

remember mace saying he didn't believe it coulkd be a sith lord because there hasn't been one in years? WELL IT WAS!:duel:

[maddog62]

(1) Why doesn't Qui-Gon disapear?
(2) Yoda didn't meditate right before he died.
(3) I think you are some what close but not on target.

[Jedi D'oh]

your right. i forgot about qui-gon not disappearing.

as far as number 2, he might have meditated before luke came, knowing he was gonna die and all.

thanks for bringing up points not considered style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[Isomorph]

What if it does have to do with some kind of emotional attachment to a person who is a force user,would that not make sense,Anakin Qui-Gon Luke Obi-Wan.

[maddog62]

I think the Skywalker bloodline being so close to the force is the link to Disapearing/jedi ghosts/identity retention. Yoda will probably figure this out with the help of the Holocrones. Just think Vader/Anakin midoclorine(SP?) would bring him so close to the force that they are in fact Living Force. Qui-Gon studies the living force so close that he was chosen by the force to find the Vergence (ANAKIN). Qui-Gon needed to be a rebal because it was the will of the force for him to find the Living Force being THE CHOSEN ONE They were all linked together before it ever happened because it is just the whill of the Force. So its like this QG studies the Living force Anakin is in fact the Living force or the closest thing to being a Midoclorine so it would be easier for QG to find him rather that the traditional conservitive force user like OW or Yoda. QG becomes a Force tool for Anakin as OW becomes later for Luke. The Ghosts are just the communication tool used by the Force to appeze the Human in either Luke or Anakin and to pass vital information kind of l;ike prophits. So it must be unheard of in Yoda's time but the prophasies came from somewhere maybe that is why Yoda needs to unlock the holocrones to figure this out.

[Darth Vegas]

You can dissagree all you want, but do you have a better theory, or should I say, can you write Star Wars better than George Lucas?

Almost everything in that theory is directly supported by GL, it is truth, I am going to take it a step further and say, since GL has said most of it, it's what's gonna happen.


In the Phantom Menace novel there was a scene extention, that was cut from the film, during Qui-Gon's funeral, Anakin was holding on to Qui-Gon through the force, he would not let him go, Obi-Wan turned and said to him, "He is one with the force now you must let him go." It is clear there that Anakin early on was consciencely trying to bring back Qui-Gon, and in AOTC he succeded.

GL has said many statements even since 1977, that back all of this up, and it was written in some of the early scripts!!!!!! It really does not matter if it ever made it to film, if GL said it, that's the way it is, and most likely he is going to stick with his original ideas, he has so far.

There's no arguing with the words in solid stone!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Javen@Aug 17 2002, 04:07 PM
i completley hope dsipappearing Jediremains somewhat of a mystery.Everything doesnt need explained useing your imagination is cool to
This does need explaining, it's a very big part of the movies.

[Darth Vegas]

Quote George Lucas:


"IT'S A MAJOR PLOT POINT."


Some of you guys need to realize something, GL makes the movies for himself, not for fans, not for the general audience. He said that himself.

It's his story, his vision, and he's doing it the way he wants it, that's exactly why he choose to make all of the films after ANH with his own production company and his own money. Because he wants to do it for himself without anyone else tampering with it.

[maddog62]

So explain why in AOTC GL incorperated Jengo Fett into the plot and made it a plot point. I will tell you why.
(1)Boba Fett has been a fan favorite since 1984
(2)People were disapionted in the way Boba dies in ROTJ
(3)People were disapionted with TPM
(4)GL needed a way to keep the Fan base happy so there could be a EP3
(5)Making Boba a part of the story line would tie up some unanswered questions's about him and make the OT SW fans interested
(6)Boba Fett EU material is amoung the best selling Lucas Art products
(7)GL wants to make $$$$$$$$$$$$$
(8)I will pay to see Mandolrians fight Jedi and so will many others
(9)I will pay again when the DVD comes out because he put in matierial in it that he purposly left out of the screne version of EP2 so we would buy it.
(10) He wants to satisfy the Fan base so he can make $$$$$ and thats the bottom line.

[Darth Vegas]

GL said in the June insider, that he always felt that Boba Fett was connected to the stormtroopers.

I don't think GL is interested in making more money, except for the fact that he needs money to pay for the next film. He doesn't keep it for himself, it's goes towards his companies.

Anyway, how bout' you all stay on the topic. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[maddog62]

Snippy when you get logic thrown at you. Whats the matter Being a James Bond fan took away all reason for you to be a free thinker. Maybe you should join the Talaban.

[Isomorph]

makes good sense to me GL has said he makes the movies for himself and no one else.

[jediego]

Bring deads back to life ? what in the hell have you been reading!!!

[Frendon]

Originally posted by jediego@Sep 15 2002, 12:27 AM
Bring deads back to life ? what in the hell have you been reading!!!
If you remember from the OT, the two jedi that died and also vader (Sith/Jedi whatever), all reappeared as ghosts, also both obiwan and yoda's body dissapeared when they died. This is what this guys call "Bringing deads back to life"

[DblDwn]

Damn, I had to go back a year to find this thread style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

I'm not going to read back through it but did anyone mention, or has everyone ever considered, that a Jedi has to fullfill his destiny in order to come back in spirit form? Obi-Wan's destiny was not to train Anakin but to get Luke into a position to be trained in order to redeem his father. He did that. He knew that once he began facing Vader. That is the reason for his little smirk. He was fullfilling his destiny of getting the crew off of the Death Star with Luke. That is why he disappeared and came back in spirit form.

Yoda's destiny was to train Luke. He did that and that is why he disappeared and came back in spirit form.

Anakin's destiny is to destroy the Sith and restore freedom to the galaxy. He did that and that is why he disappears and comes back in spirit form. I still say that he doesn't disappear but everyone argues that he did and it was just the suit that Luke burns. Maybe he doesn't get to disappear because of the whole Sith Lord thing and the brutal killing of people but he gets to come back in spirit form because, after all, he righted his wrong and he is the Chosen One.

Qui-Gon doesn't fullfill his destiny because his destiny was, obviously, to train Anakin. He was unable to do that because of his untimely demise but at least he found Anakin and put him in a position to be trained. That is why he only comes back as a voice and not in physical form. He only fullfilled half his destiny and not all of it.

Perhaps Mace dies while fullfilling his destiny in Episode III? Maybe he dies while allowing others mentioned above, and those close to them, to escape? Maybe he disappears and is digitally inserted into the end of ROTJ with the others? Whether or not Boba kills him and the whole "No disintegrations" thing plays out is anyone's guess however unlikely.

And of course the Yoda and the rest of the Council would know nothing of this disappearing act because there were probably no destiny's to fullfill "before the dark time." And yes it probably has a lot to do with Anakin's presence as the Chosen One to balance the Force as well.

Any thoughts?

[Darth Vegas]

We hear Obi-Wan's voice in ANH through the Force before we see him as a ghost in ESB, same thing with Qui-Gon in AOTC IMO, I think we can expect to see and hear more from Qui-Gon in some form in Episode 3.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by TK-007@Sep 4 2003, 08:23 PM
We hear Obi-Wan's voice in ANH through the Force before we see him as a ghost in ESB, same thing with Qui-Gon in AOTC IMO, I think we can expect to see and hear more from Qui-Gon in some form in Episode 3.
That's a fair point but in the Death Star trench, where is Obi-Wan going to appear? On the wing in a recliner drinking some Jawa Juice and watching Starsky and Hutch on TV? (It was the 70's after all)

[NIGHTTRAVELER]

I agree.

[Darth Vegas]

Dbldwn, Lucas said on the AOTC dvd commentary that Yoda made a connection with Qui-Gon Jinn in the moment of Anakin's pain, almost as if Qui-Gon's spirit had just been awoken in that moment hence the reason he doesn't appear as a ghost yet, it's possible that Skywalker's fall has something to do with this or that Skywalker is making it happen (I will even learn to stop people from dying!)

I like your idea, in fact I posted the same idea in another thread, only that Qui-Gon's destiny wasn't to train Anakin, it was to teach the other Jedi how to retain their idenity in the Force, and he will fullfill that in Episode 3.

http://www.episode-x.com/episode3/lucassay...aringjedi.shtml (http://www.episode-x.com/episode3/lucassays/disappearingjedi.shtml)

[bluemilk]

Well the theory goes that since jedi are luminous beings they have the ability to leave there bodies in spirit form even when they are not dead. Then they stay in this form until they eventually their spirit disappears back into the force. This may explain why Obi Wan let Vader strike him down because he knew he would become one with the force and therefore sustain himself long enough to help Luke.

[Darth Vegas]

Becoming one with the Force is what happens when a Jedi dies, retaining you identity in the Force is something quite different, exclusive only to Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin thus far.

They were one with the Force, yet they retained their identity.

[Javen]

Actually, Qui-gon got Anakin trained. He asked Obi-Wan to make a promise that he would make sure he did get him trained.

The disappearing Jedi is simply a plot point like GL said. It's really not going to be some great revelation.

[bluemilk]

and in the EU to Exar Kun, Callista and Luke. For Exar Kun and Callista their bodies had been killed and their spirits trapped. Point is there is a residual effect after a jedi dies and they are able to hold their spirit intact at least for awhile.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Javen@Sep 4 2003, 08:00 PM
The disappearing Jedi is simply a plot point like GL said. It's really not going to be some great revelation.
GL said it was a plot point as if to say it was important, it's not just going to be some small thing, it's something that will be entirely explained in the movie, in fact they've already filmed part of the explanation.

[Javen]

Also everyone uses the same old line"Someday I even keep people from dying"

Has nothing to do with disappearing jedi.

Vader was surprised when he checked for the body of Obi-Wan. Qui-gon wasn't prepared for death, it was sudden.

But Ob-Wan was prepared and so was Yoda. It's not going to be a great revelation in EPIII.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Javen@Sep 4 2003, 08:16 PM
Also everyone uses the same old line"Someday I even keep people from dying"

Has nothing to do with disappearing jedi.
You don't know that.

It's not going to be a great revelation in EPIII.

It is something that will be completely explained. What do you mean by great?

GL has told us that Episode 3 will change our preception of the OT.

[Javen]

Originally posted by TK-007+Sep 4 2003, 11:18 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TK-007 @ Sep 4 2003, 11:18 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Javen@Sep 4 2003, 08:16 PM
Also everyone uses the same old line"Someday I even keep people from dying"

Has nothing to do with disappearing jedi.
You don't know that.

It's not going to be a great revelation in EPIII.

It is something that will be completely explained. What do you mean by great?

GL has told us that Episode 3 will change our preception of the OT. [/b][/quote]
How would you know that I don't? Why is it when I say something that it's "I don't know?" WTF?


Great:as in huge, humongous, Grand Canyon sized revelation.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Javen@Sep 4 2003, 08:21 PM
How would you know that I don't?
Because you're just a fan just like everybody else here.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Javen@Sep 4 2003, 08:21 PM
Great:as in huge, humongous, Grand Canyon sized revelation.
I don't think anyone was expecting that.

[Javen]

Originally posted by TK-007+Sep 4 2003, 11:23 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TK-007 @ Sep 4 2003, 11:23 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Javen@Sep 4 2003, 08:21 PM
How would you know that I don't?
Because you're just a fan just like everybody else here. [/b][/quote]
uh ok...but if you had said it it would be written in stone.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Javen+Sep 4 2003, 08:30 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Javen @ Sep 4 2003, 08:30 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> Originally posted by TK-007@Sep 4 2003, 11:23 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Javen@Sep 4 2003, 08:21 PM
How would you know that I don't?
Because you're just a fan just like everybody else here.
uh ok...but if you had said it it would be written in stone. [/b][/quote]
If I had ssaid it I'd have been wrong too.

[Javen]

And you don't know I'm not either. I actually have watched all the movies to you know. And can read, so I see something you don't which doesn't make me wrong.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Javen@Sep 4 2003, 08:34 PM
And you don't know I'm not either.* I actually have watched all the movies to you know.* And can read, so I see something you don't which doesn't make me wrong.
Javen, I'm not saying you're are definately wrong about the line, I'm just saying you don't KNOW that, it's only your opinion, you would be wrong to say it definately doesn't have anything to do with the ability to retain your idenity in the Force.

I don't really think it does either, but it still could turn out that way.