Role of Qui-Gon in Ep III

[looceefir]

I think everyone knows what i'm suggesting, a Yoda/Ben type role where Qui-Gon appears in spirit/ghost/whatever secular form you want to someone. But who? Obi-Wan is probly beyond the need for it, but it might be interesting if he did need it but didn't listen to Qui-Gon, and this might contribute to Anakin's fall.

Obviously Anakin would be a good choice for a spirit guide, but would he listen to Qui-Gon? We know there's some kind of link from Yoda's experience of Anakin's pain, but did Qui-Gon have a big effect on Anakin's life? He sees Obi-Wan as his teacher, albeit often negatively. Maybe Qui-Gon could be Anakin's conscience manifest in Ep III, Count Dooku or Palpatine his dark side? Parallel scenes playing them against each other?

Or what about Yoda? Could he be in need of guidance but doesn't follow it, leads to his confinement on Dagobah. Remember Yoda's comment about older the Jedi get the more arrogant? I thought it could easily be a comment on himself. He is the oldest Jedi isn't he?

edit: sorry, posted this in the wrong place, can someone move it for me please? :eh:

[DanielSkywalker]

Well, very interesting this is. I too have often wondered if Qui-Gon would appear to Obi-Wan or Anakin in EPII or III, either to offer guidance to Obi-Wan as he trains Anakin or to warn Anakin to be weary to the seductive powers of the emperor. But, it then dawned on me that Qui-Gon probably won't appear because he did not vanish after dying as Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Anakin did. These are the only Jedi who have appeared in the "after-life" and they all have one thing in common. They vanished upon dying; this perhaps being a Jedi trick learned by these Jedi somewhere between EP II and III or in EpIII itself. But, hearing Qui-Gon's voice as Yoda sensed Anankin's Torment and anger in AOTC was very intriguing. Perhaps Qui-Gon is still around in one form or another.

As for Yoda, I don't believe that he was referring to himself when he made the comment about Jedi becoming more arrogant as they age. I believe that he was warning Obi-Wan to be especially careful with Anakin, and not assume that he was doing everything that should be done with Anakin's training. Yoda senses the path that Anakin has begun to take after he slaughters the Tuskens. Thus, he warns Kenobi. That's just my take on things.

[looceefir]

Did Anakin disappear? I can't remember my details exactly and i know since we saw the armour burn it doesn't mean he was in it, but i can't remember his body actually disappearing.

I know Yoda's comment is straightforwardly a warning to the others, but coming from the mouth of the oldest Jedi it's got to have other significance, if only that he has been arrogant before, signifying a past mistake that he regrets

[wa1974]

i seem to remember reading somewhere an interview of George Lucas where he discusses that there is a reason Luke only sees Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anakin.

i think it was an interview on the official site... does anyone else remember this?

in my crack-smoke filled mind, i always figured that there was some special jedi ritual that bonded the four of them and helped them defeat the emperor and hide the children.

hmmm.

[DanielSkywalker]

I was under the impression that Anakin vanished upon dying and Luke put Anakin's Armour on the funeral pyre, not his body. Unfortunatly, I'm not 100% sure as to how accurate that is because it does not show him dissapear in the film. I have just heard it several times from other fans and authorities. Perhaps this aspect was included in the novel or the script. I'm not really sure. But, it does make sense to me.

[Teek]

Moved to the Ep. III section.

[catwmnjedi]

I've got a good twist...
What if Qui-Gon's role in EPIII is that HE is the one who ordered the making of the Clones... he merely used a known Jedi's name (Sifo-dias) to disguise himself.

Dooku said that Qui-Gon knew there was treachery beginning to infiltrate the government ten years ago, and he knew of the prophesy of the "Chosen One". Perhaps he ordered the Clones knowing that something bad was going to happen in the future, and that the Jedi might need an army to combat it. I believe if this was so, his intentions were meant for good, not evil. Dooku maybe knew about it (since he and Qui-Gon were close) and told Sidious, thus setting the wheels in motion for the Sith to gain control of the future clone army.

Just a theory, but it sounded cool to me.

[Darth Tasen]

I love that theory!!!!!!!!! But getting back to the vanishing thing and the ghostly image thing, I read somewhere that a jedi is somehow taught how to come back as a ghostly figure after death, I don't know how they are taught this but that's what I read. And with the vanishing thing, I heard that when jedi allow themselves to die is when they disappear. Just thought I'd tell you.

[JediBendu]

whether this is relevent or not
The ghost image of Anakin doesn't appear straight away, he materialises with Yoda and Ben already there. Maybe he got caught in traffic :p

Qui-Gon won't be appearing in Ep3. Nothing to do with story but GL doesn't like Leam after he bagged Phantom hardcore to the press. His inclusion in ATOC was just the sound byte from Phantom's 'Anakin drop!' rather than him actually recording a new piece - it's why the 'No' sounds different.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

Wait, Lucas and Liam dislike each other? When did you hear that?

Besides that point, I don't believe that Qui-Gon will return. He doesn't really have much to do with the story. And if he came back to guide Obi-Wan, why wouldn't he come back in the OT?

[JediBendu]

They could splice him in to the Ultra editions with Anakin, Obi and Yoda. Or even redo the entire shot - when Luke is shaking hands and hugging everyone, you could have Anakin doing the same thing in the netherworld style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

Nothing specific regarding GL but there was a article on his disappointment at Leam bagging Phantom before it came out, trying to disassociate himself from the film, didn't like blue screen, an affront to real acting blah blah blah.
Coupled with the fact that he wasn't used for ATOC, even though the character was involved, leads me to think that there's a security warning on him should he ever decide to get back on the SW set.
Besides, the Dept of Immigration would probably classify Leam as an asylum seeker, arrest him when comes through Sydney, and ship him off to some Pacific island where he'll be detained until his visa application is processed and rejected.
(sorry, bit of Aust. political humour there)

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

That's pretty weird; because everytime I saw him on TV he said that he was pleased the way the film turned out and how the children and fans responded to it. He seemed all smiles to me.

Hey! I kind of like that--Anakin shaking hands and hugging everyone in the netherworld. I think it would be nice to see Padme and Anakin reunite in their younger image. Kind of like the last shot of "Titanic".

[Count Dooku]

I think Gandalf is right. But I do believe he will speak to Obi-Wan or Anakin but that's it.

[Jedi Master Gandalf]

I remember Rick McCallum quickly shooting down any rumors of Qui-Gon returning for Ep3. It was when he was saying who would be returning for Ep3, and mention the "new bad guy". I think it was in SW Insider.

[Lonesabre]

Just a quick thought, how cool would it be in the "ultimate OT editions" that after ben and yoda appear, and then anakin, all the other jedi that we have met materialise??? mace, ki-adi mundi et al???

just an idea!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[Lirael]

I seem to recall reading from some article that George Lucas was going to address the whole "Qui-Gon not vanishing when he dies" thing in Ep. III...who knows. If that does happen, it wouldn't necessarily involve Qui-Gon making an actual appearance.

However, I would really like to see Qui-Gon's ghost in Ep. III -- especially since we hear his voice in AOTC and it would be rather odd just to leave that hanging -- but I doubt that Liam Neeson would sign on for another Star Wars movie, even if Lucas asked.

[Darth Jesus]

Re: Yoda's statement about Jedi getting more arrogant as they got older. Who does he look directly at when he says this? Mace. I think it's another clue (of many) pointing to the man with the half-blue/half-red lightsaber as a traitor.

To recap, the others:
-Yoda looks directly at Mace when he says "the Dark Side clouds everything."
-Mace immediately places blame for Amidala's attack on miners, then refuses the idea that Count Dooku could have been behind the attack
-Palpatine appeals directly to Mace, not Yoda, when asking that Amidala be placed under Obi-Wan's protection
-Mace is completely unconcerned when Obi-Wan tells him that Anakin is out of control and shouldn't be alone with Amidala
-Mace's lightsaber was established as being blue. Now it is purple, which is blue halfway on its way to being red. (When asked about this, "Jocasta Nu" at Star Wars.com said an event occured between Ep. I and Ep. II to cause this change, but would not specify what)
-Mace doesn't kill Dooku when he has the chance
-Mace seems to check up on Yoda a lot in ep. II
-Mace is the first Jedi to discount the idea that the Sith could have returned in Ep. I

All of which points to...

...traitor!!

[Ani's Girl]

whoa - Qui-gon ordered the clones - now that's a theory style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

my theory regarding the jedi-spirits is Anakin creates them. he wants to 'stop people from dying' and i think he does.

[Mann]

Didn't Samuel L. Jackson bag on The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. He mainly had problems with the titles, going on interviews saying that they should have been changed. He actually thought the first one should have been just Star Wars-Episode 1. He said that Attack of the Clones was a terrible title. I can't say that Liam will get the cold shoulder from Lucas, since he either has to, or doesn't have to fit in the script.

[mace]

-Mace doesn't kill Dooku when he has the chance
Mace seems to check up on Yoda a lot in ep. II
-Mace is the first Jedi to discount the idea that the Sith could have returned in Ep. I

Actually, Mace didn't kill Dooku when he has the chance because a Jedi only uses his lightsabre in defense. It would be against the Jedi code for him to just come up on Dooku from behind and kill him. And Ki-Adi-Mundi was actually the first Jedi to discount the idea that the Sith could have returned in Ep I. (Quote: "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.")

I'm not totally against the idea that Mace might turn out to be a traitor, but I do have issue with those two points.

[Darth Jesus]

Actually, you're absolutely right on the Ki-Adi-Mundi thing (I checked), but Mace does agree with Mundi.

I'll also admit that Mace not killing Dooku is also a stretch...but yeah, I still think Mace is a traitor.

In fact, with the clues against him in Ep. II, I think the only way Mace couldn't turn out to be a traitor is if Lucas gets cold feet at the idea of having the only African American major character in the first and second trilogies turn out to be traitors (though Lando did turn back around).

[JediBendu]

Even if he turned traiter, he'd still be the baddest mother in the entire galaxy.

[DblDwn]

Actually Lando never is a traitor in ESB. If Vader and his Stormtrooping posse showed up on your porch and said, "Do this, or everyone dies starting with you", you'd bow down quicker than Jenna Jameson too. Then when he got the opportunity to re-take control of the situation, he did so.

As far as Mace being a traitor I'm going to hold off on that one for now. In my opinion there isn't enough evidence to suggest that Mace is a traitor at this point. Although I do believe whole-heartedly that Lucas is going to throw us all for a loop in Episode III i.e., my thoughts on Sidious being Sifo-Dyas and not Palpatine, what people we think to be good will turn out to be bad (of which Mace would be a suspect, but I just can't buy into it at this stage), whether or not the dark cave on Dagobah comes into play or not, and so on.

[Senator Theant]

Excellent points made you guys . . . .


Going along with the whole Anakin restores balance to the force prophesy . . . I think that Jedi reappear after death only when they have some strong attachment to Anakin. Think about it:

In AOTC, Lucas made a point in Anakin's anguish over the death of his mother, as we had expected. But then, outta nowhere, Lucas throws a curve ball at us when he has Anakin say: "I will destroy death and suffering forever" [paraphrased]. Is there a No-Death Guarantee clause anywhere on the Anakin Prophesy contract? I mean, is Yoda and Obi Wan (and possibly Qui Gon) guaranteed life after death only through Anakin? Furthermore, Obi Wan seemed to know of this disappearing trick as he suggested to Vader: "strike me down and I will become even more powerful" [again paraphrased]. Whats the deal? Perhaps Qui GOn will appear in the final installment because it was him that discovered Anakin in the first place.

[bodhisattva yoda]

from what i've heard, and i think this was mentioned by lucas in some interview, is that yoda has the knowledge of how to exist after death, and imparts this knowledge only to choice jedi. something like that. all the jedi that live on after death had the foreknowledge that they were going to die, and i believe that it requires a level of concentration to live on. i think qui-gon is dead. DEAD dead. he didn't fade away. unless there is some conspiracy at work here, the dude is gone.

[Senator Theant]

DO you know where he said that, like where you might have seen it. Perhaps a filmed interview or on a website?

[Pepper]

This is an *excellent* thread, you guys! *Some great ideas here. *Cat, I love your idea about QG being the one who ordered the clone army. *Love it, hope it happens!

However, I really really doubt that Mace Windu's a traitor. *If you'd suggested this right after TPM (as some did) then I might be more inclined to believe it. *I honestly didn't like Windu after I saw TPM, but now, after seeing AOTC four times, I really like him. *A lot. *I'm hoping we actually see him duke it out with some Sith in Episode III. *

Think about it this way:
If Windu was a traitor in the time of AOTC, and in league with the Sith, why then did he aggressively intervene at Tyranus's "party"? *Why then did Tyranus try to kill him in the the gladiator arena? *Not only did he try to kill Mace with thousands of battle droids, but when that didn't work he sicced Jango Fett on him, which also didn't work. *They both (Tyranus and Fett) seriously tried to kill him, which isn't something you do to one of your allies, especially when you haven't even started your war yet. *Not only that, but Mace absolutely refused to be a part of Tyranus's scheme, saying that he and the Jedi "would not!" be his hostages, even to the point of dying under the flood of battle droids. *Not the way I'd imagine a high-placed traitor would fulfill his part of the bargain. *Otherwise, why go traitor at all??

Now to the main topic:
Y'all need to to read the AOTC novelisation. *It elaborates a little more on the scene where Yoda "feels" Anakin's pain and hatred as he destroys that Tusken village. *Yoda hears Qui-Gon saying "Anakin, no! *Anakin, don't!", and is stunned to hear him. *Apparently, the only reason Yoda was able to hear Qui-Gon was because at that point Yoda was looking with the Dark side, which is something the Jedi just don't do. *Consequently, Yoda was seeing a part of the Force of which he previously had no knowledge. *He was shocked to learn that Qui-Gon wasn't "one with the Force" as the Jedi had believed, but still had his own identity and will. *So there you have it: Yoda and the Jedi apparently don't know it all when it comes to the Force. *Furthermore, it now seems possible that Qui-Gon was on to something that the rest of them were ignorant of. *Remember that he was a proponent of the "Living Force", whereas Obi-Wan and Yoda and many others were more for the "Unifying Force", whatever all that stuff really means. *(This is explained a bit in the TPM novelisation.) *

Or maybe it's just that the Jedi typically retain their identities after death, and that the still-in-the-flesh Jedi were simply unaware of this at this point.

[Jo-Na Bast]

This is such an interesting discussion!

I just came to think of something:
What if you actually can't truly destroy someone (a jedi) with the dark side of the force?
All the jedi who died (Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Anakin, possibly even Yoda) and reappeared were in fact 'killed' by dark force users. And the dark side only affects "this crude flesh" as someone said, so if your crude flesh was killed by the dark side your spirit lives on with its integrity intact.

Oh and about Yoda; how can somebody who is fit as anyone at 880 all of a sudden be sick and old at 900? it's got to be something from the outside, perhaps related to the dark cave on Dagobah that makes him ill and ultimately kills him; thus only killing his crude flesh and not his spirit form.
What do you think?

[Polunis]

Jo-Na Bast, you have an interesting theory about disappearing; I would like to see this subject discussed to some extent in Episode III.

I always wondered about Yoda; however, he has to die someday. "Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong."

[Javen]

pass

[Javen]

George Lucas himself said that when Yoda heard Qui-Gon's
voice that it was a plot point and that if thought out really hard would be able to figure it out.Also Yoda heard 2 diffrent voices Qui Gons "Anakin,Anakin" the other was a Tusken Raider sAying NO!

[DarthLestat]

I'm pretty certain that was Qui-Gon's "Noooooo".
Pepper, you're on to something with that 'Living Force' theory I believe. Qui-Gon's unuaual approach to the Force was partly what kept him off the Jedi council, an approach he got from his own master Dooku, it would seem. Perhaps he did indeed come to understand the nature of the retaining of the identity and now Yoda senses this...but did Anakin hear? Perhaps the lack of balance in the Force is what allowed the ability of life after death within the Force to be discovered by Qui-Gon and now Yoda's becoming clued in himself?

[Jedi_Jonny]

Some intresting idea's here.
I think that Qui-Gon will appear in Ep3 as a ghost.Remember GL said after AOTC was released that Yoda hearing Qui-Gon's voice was a plot point for Episode 3.
I think that the force will release that Anakin won't bring balance and that the Jedi's only hope is Anakin's unborn child.But Yoda and Obi-Wan or no other jedi will release this.The force must let it be known to the jedi that Anakin's child could still bring balance.How can the force do that?-Easy-through Qui-Gon.
His ghost will tell Yoda and Obi-Wan that Padme must survive at all costs.Qui-Gon well then advise Obi-Wan and Yoda how to dissapear at death and become one with with the force so they can help Luke in future when it comes to to time he has to destroy Vader!

[haYDen CHriSteNSEn LoVEr]

Originally posted by DanielSkywalker@May 24 2002 - 22:52
Well, very interesting this is. *I too have often wondered if Qui-Gon would appear to Obi-Wan or Anakin in EPII or III, either to offer guidance to Obi-Wan as he trains Anakin or to warn Anakin to be weary to the seductive powers of the emperor. *But, it then dawned on me that Qui-Gon probably won't appear because he did not vanish after dying as Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Anakin did. *These are the only Jedi who have appeared in the "after-life" and they all have one thing in common. *They vanished upon dying; this perhaps being a Jedi trick learned by these Jedi somewhere between EP II and III or in EpIII itself. *But, hearing Qui-Gon's voice as Yoda sensed Anankin's Torment and anger in AOTC was very intriguing. *Perhaps Qui-Gon is still around in one form or another. *

As for Yoda, I don't believe that he was referring to himself when he made the comment about Jedi becoming more arrogant as they age. *I believe that he was warning Obi-Wan to be especially careful with Anakin, and not assume that he was doing everything that should be done with Anakin's training. *Yoda senses the path that Anakin has begun to take after he slaughters the Tuskens. *Thus, he warns Kenobi. *That's just my take on things.
maybe quigon appears to both of them when they are dueling, to try and stop them
anakin- dont or you will turn dark
obi wan- you will give him series damage and force(no pun intended) him 2 the dark side.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif

[Brian]

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