Vader and the Emperor

[darthwicker]

In the opening crawl for TESB it says that Vader is obsessed with finding young Skywalker.
Does this mean then we should believe that Vader has been searching for Luke pretty much since the end of ANH.
The point I'm getting to is that when Vader makes contact with the Emperor about halfway through the movie, the Emperor says ' We have a new enemy - Luke Skywalker '.
Now if at the start of the film Vader is already obsessed with finding Luke, it's old news to him that they have a new enemy.
Was Vader searching for Luke and just using the rebels as an excuse to find him.
Obviously at some point after the destruction of the 1st death star, Vader found out the name of the pilot responsible for it's destruction - Luke Skywalker.
How did the Emperor not find out? Or if he did, how did Vader hide his feelings for finding Luke from the Emperor?

I'm not really taking into account the Shadows of the Empire story, even though I like it, but because I'm not sure if in the book, Vader and the Emperor talk to each other about Luke
and my whole point to this post is that obviously in the movie, they haven't.

[LordTyranus]

I think in ESB it's pretty clear that Vader has his own agenda, turn Luke and rule the galaxy as father and son, his goals would be best met by keeping the Emperor "in the dark" about his plans.

[JediBendu]

Why would he need to? In roj Vader senses Luke's presence even when the Emperor couldn't. The Emperor even questions whether he may have be mistaken.

Perhaps the Emperor is not as strong as you think? :scratchchin:

[darthwicker]

Exactly man, I would of thought that Luke being one of the key links in the death stars destruction and the fact he's Vader's son would be cause enough for a bit of a chat between Vader and the Emperor.
Vader obviously knew that Luke would cause the Emperor some concern, yet he tells his master nothing about his agenda.
Maybe Ep3 will show us how much of a slave Anakin\Vader is to Palpatine and how much Vader resents him for it, but like he tells Luke ' You don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my master '.

[Obi-Stu]

Good question Darthwicker, and I agree with LordTyranus. Which is why Vader convinces the Emperor to turn Luke instead of killing him.

[QUOTE]Why would he need to? *In roj Vader senses Luke's presence even when the Emperor couldn't. *The Emperor even questions whether he may have be mistaken.[QUOTE]

If I recall correctly, the Emperor even questions Vaders motives.

Lets hope Ep3 does indeed work on this relationship.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Obi-Stu@Aug. 05 2002 - 06:35
If I recall correctly, the Emperor even questions Vaders motives.
Which scene are you thinking of?

To me, it seemed like the Emperor accepted Vader's proposal far to easily. I can't think of a single reason why it would be in the Emperor's favor to attempt to turn Luke.

[Rinc]

I think the emperor wanted to turn Luke because he was younger and more mobile than Vader. If Luke inherited Anakin's power then his potential is great and as he showed his anger could beat Vader.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Rinc@Aug. 05 2002 - 19:44
I think the emperor wanted to turn Luke because he was younger and more mobile than Vader. If Luke inherited Anakin's power then his potential is great and as he showed his anger could beat Vader.
True. But why take the chance when you've got a loyal apprentice?

[Justin]

Palpatine wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side in order to replace Vader, and Vader wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side so they could destroy the Emperor adn take over the galaxy.

Lucas said that somewhere...I think he says it in the TPM DVD commentary.

[Justin]

As for what Wicker said in his first post, I think that when Vader found out about Luke he kept it to himself, and went to search for him without telling Palpatine, in order to keep Luke for himself.

I'm sure none of that had been considered when they made the movie, but it's interesting to think about.

[darthwicker]

'With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy'.
Vader to Luke in TESB
I have always loved this line because I imagine it to be what Vader is always thinking while he searches for Luke.
I think what I like is that up until Vader hears about Luke after the destruction of the 1st Death Star, he probably thought he knew what his own destiny was going to be, but Luke turning up on the scene completely rattles his world and gives him new ideas and it certainly isn't the type of thing the Emperor would be pleased hearing about.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Justin@Aug. 05 2002 - 22:34
Palpatine wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side in order to replace Vader, and Vader wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side so they could destroy the Emperor adn take over the galaxy.
I understand Vader's motivation. In fact, I think it might be more than that. He didn't want to destroy his own son.

But the Emperor didn't need to replace Vader, who had been an excellent apprentice.

[Justin]

If Vader wanted to kill Luke he had plenty of opportunities to do so.

Palpatine wanted to replace Vader because he knew that Vader would eventually want to usurp his power.

[Mann]

The sith always try to take over one another. They just use the other one to bide their time and act loyal as a deception. Vader had no idea that the Emperor wanted to replace him until the final moments in the Return of the Jedi.

Vader found out about Skywalker and went looking for him after ANH. When the Emperor comes on and says there is a disturbance in the force Vader says I have felt it, making it clear he already knows what the emperor is going to say.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Justin@Aug. 06 2002 - 14:33
Palpatine wanted to replace Vader because he knew that Vader would eventually want to usurp his power.
The only way Vader could usurp his power is with another Sith, Luke being a possible choice at that time. So by allowing Vader to bring in Luke alive, the Emperor was actually creating a situation whereby Vader could attempt to topple him. That's an incredibly dumb move.

Like you said, Mann, "The sith always try to take over one another." The only way to prevent that is by keeping the number at two. Bringing a third (Luke) into the equation is ridiculously stupid. Sidious already had a powerful apprentice in place and his empire in place. There's was no reason for any change. He was playing with fire and it cost him his life and Empire.

[Mann]

But, Sidious wanted younger blood. Vader wanted to be incharge completly. The Emperor knew that if he could get Vader's son, than he could make him more powerful. Vader's loyalty was weakening. So He had them duel it out to see who was stronger.

[Justin]

I think Vader could have taken the Emperor on his own. In fact, he did.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Mann@Aug. 06 2002 - 15:57
But, Sidious wanted younger blood. Vader wanted to be incharge completly. The Emperor knew that if he could get Vader's son, than he could make him more powerful. Vader's loyalty was weakening. So He had them duel it out to see who was stronger.
I suppose it's a matter of interpretation. I didn't see it that way. Vader's been his apprentice for years, and yet as of ANH, he obviously hadn't taken over or tried to. It was only when Luke entered the equation that Vader seemed to consider it. And to me that seems natural given that he's Sith. If Maul had been in his place, and a potential apprentice for him came along, he'd take the opportunity as well to become the new Master. Like you said previously, it's the nature of the Sith to try to take over. In fact, I would expect Sidious to do the same if he was apprentice and an opportunity like that arose.

But alone, Vader (or any other apprentice) wouldn't dare challenge his Master because he could easily lose. Sidious knows that, so he has no reason to fear or distrust Vader. It's only when a potential new apprentice comes along, that he should be worried. Luke's existence should have caused warning bells to go off in his head. After all, this isn't just any man. It's the son of his apprentice. Of course Vader would take advantage of that. It has nothing to do with Vader being a bad apprentice, and everything to do with the nature of the Sith.

Sidious himself would never have gotten to where he was if he didn't know how to take advantage when opportunity presented itself. It's not a question of which Skywalker was stronger. Rather, it's about survival and about Sidious keeping power.

[Ferarri pit droid]

Vader never tried to kill Luke. "There is still good in you, that is why you could'n't kill me and that is why you won't bring me to your emperor now" (Luke in Jedi). However vader had to bring him to palpetine, because to some extent he feared him. And I think that it is correct to assume that he wanted luke to help him overtrow the Emperor.

The Emperor also was aware of vaders lacking health. Not only because of his injuries, but also the deteriation of his body caused by the Dark side of the Force (Palpetine had the same condition). His overconfidence was his weakness. He had nothing to lose. If he could have turned luke to the dark side, Palpatine would have a powerfull new and healthy apprentice. If he couldn't he would have destroyed him.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif "Always two there are, no more no less, a master and an apprentice"

[JediBendu]

which he tried to do, but as his overconfidence blinded him, he didn't even think to look behind him.

I'll bet my last dollar that in ep3 Palpatine will offer Anakin the same choice that Vader offered Luke:

'Join me and we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy'

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Ferarri pit droid@Aug. 18 2002 - 21:44
He had nothing to lose.
He had everything to lose, and he did. His life and his Empire.

[Mann]

Justin, I think Vader couldn't have taken Palpatine on his own, but Anakin could which is what happened. When Luke was being tortued, Vader died and Anakin returned.

[Ferarri pit droid]

I agree, but the irony is that Palpetine was occupied with luke and a weak, nearly dieing Anakin Throws the emperor in the pit

[LordTyranus]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Aug. 19 2002 - 03:00
which he tried to do, but as his overconfidence blinded him, he didn't even think to look behind him.

I'll bet my last dollar that in ep3 Palpatine will offer Anakin the same choice that Vader offered Luke:

'Join me and we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy'

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif
I'm not so sure about that, I think that line was already mirrored in AOTC when Dooku wanted Obi-Wan to join him, so together they could destroy the sith.

[Jacen Solo]

I don't know, Lord Tyranus. (Are you related to Count Dooku, by any chance?) style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif

Looking back, I see many parallels between Episode V (ESB) and Episode II (AoTC.) For example:

"I'll never join you, Dooku!!" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi's line in AoTC, and Luke's "I'll never join you!!" in ESB.

When Count Dooku tells Obi-Wan that the Senate is under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith, Obi-Wan responds with "No, that's not possible." Much like Darth Vader telling his son that he is his father, and Luke crying, "No, that's not true!!"

The point I'm trying to make with these parallels ... I wouldn't be surprised at all if Episode III has a bunch of parallels to Episode VI. For example, I'm ready to see interaction between Anakin and Palpatine much like Luke's struggle with the Emperor in RoTJ. Only in Episode III, the evil side will win.