Why Hide on Tatooine? A Possible Answer

[sbaxter]

I'm making this a seperate thread from the Obi-Wan name thread, because it also touches on a couple of other theories, and it may or may not provide a partial answer to the Obi-Wan/Skywalker name issue.

Why, of all places in the galaxy, would Obi-Wan take himself and Luke to Tatooine to hide from Sidious, Vader and the developing Empire? It seems rather odd, especially given that Luke is placed with Anakin's half-brother Owen, that Luke keeps the name "Skywalker" (we're not certain yet where the name "Luke" originated), and that Obi-Wan changes only his first name.

I don't pretend to know anything about the answer to this, but when I thought of this I knew that it could cover lots of ground.

Consider the mystery of the "Dark Side Tree" on Dagobah, wherein Luke descends to face what seems like a cross between his own fears and a warning of how he could wind up if he isn't exceedingly careful. Yoda tells Luke that the tree (actually it is a cave of sorts beneath a tree) is strong with the Dark Side. It has always seemed like a rather strange thing that Yoda would choose to live so close to something so strong in the Dark Side.

Of course, many of us know the stories about this tree that have sprung up the interim since ESB. Most concern the idea that the tree/cave was once the site of some sort of ... event ... that involved the outpouring of great quantities of Dark Side energy. Further, so the story goes, Yoda has chosen to live close to this site because the presence of a concentration of *Dark Side energy can shield the presence of a strong Light Side-attuned being (i.e., Yoda) from detection from other Force-sensitives.

I don't know where this idea originated. I know that I first heard it many years ago, so it is quite possible it appeared first in Lucasfilm's backstory. I believe some stories in the EU may have tried to explain the event that made the cave the way it is in ESB, and some of us here expect/hope to see this happen in Episode 3. The concept behind this shielding effect could be as simple as this one borrowed from mathematics and physics: Opposite forces negate, or they "cancel each other out."

Anyway, let's assume for a moment that this is indeed why Yoda has chosen this place for his home.

I believe this could also be the reason Obi-Wan took Luke to Tatooine. Consider both that both Luke is living at the Lars homestead in ANH, and Obi-Wan is reasonably close as well. I think they do this because there is a similar area that is suffused with the Dark Side, and thus Obi-Wan and Luke are able to go undetected roughly 20 years.

So what, you may ask, is the source of the Dark Side surge in this area that makes this possible? Well, why not Anakin's massacre of the Tusken Raiders in AOTC? We don't know how many Tusken Raiders Anakin killed that day, but a couple of dozen doesn't seem like an unreasonable guess. Anakin would have worked quickly, and he did this in a haze of pain, rage, suffering, and the Sandpeople would have generated a large outpouring of the same, with the addition of no small measure of terror to the mix. They wouldn't seem to be Force-sensitives normally, but I could imagine that their "dark" emotions and thoughts at that time could have been amplified and transmitted by Anakin. In any case, it was certainly a Dark Side event that Yoda felt who-knows-how-many light years distant on Coruscant. So this was a big event, to say the least. I submit the residue of this incident provides supernatural "cover" for Anakin's old master and his son.

Further, this may serve to explain another prequel mystery. How does Palpatine/Sidious (same person or not) hide from the Jedi when they're _right there_, for crying out loud? Well, if a significant concentration of Dark Side energy can hide a Light-Side user, why not the other way around? It could well be that _the Jedi themselves_ are unwittingly shielding Darth Sidious and his dastardly deed-doing from detection.

If you don't like this theory and believe it has to be a residual effect steeped heavily into the landscape, then perhaps one huge event can cause this -- but suppose the effect could also be cumulative, growing over time from small events in the same place. If so, where in the galaxy might you expect to find such cumulative effects at their highest? Why, at the Jedi Temple, of course, where thousands and thousands of Jedi have trained, generation after generation, ad nauseum! If this is true, who knows how high the effects are there by this point? It might also even have something to do with the Jedi finding that their "power to use the Force has been diminished," as Mace Windu says to Yoda in AOTC. Perhaps they don't yet know what the cause of this is ... but Darth Sidious does. And why does that knowledge later not give _him_ the clue he needs to check Tatooine? Perhaps he doesn't realize that brief, intense episodes can have the same result. Also, I am proceeding on the assumption that Sidious and Vader think Obi-Wan is dead and that Anakin's child died prior to birth.

I've tried to think of holes in this theory. The only thing I can see is that it raises questions about such things as Luke and Yoda seeing the future, but that could be explained in that they were there, trying to detect people who were not close to what I'll call "Force Wells." In other words, they were inside looking out, and perhaps that isn't hindered. Also, one might ask why the Jedi wouldn't notice that they couldn't sense the others of their order. But I'm guessing that it only works if the Force Well is of the opposite nature to that of the Force-sensitives inside it.

It could be that the Force Well effect fades with time, and/or that it is most effective against someone involved in its creation. All sheer speculation, but if so, this could be further reason to choose that Tatooine.

How does this strike the rest of you? As I said, I don't think this necessarily answers why Obi-Wan and Luke keep their names, but it could certainly help to explain why Kenobi chose Tatooine. *

Qapla'

SSB

[Justin]

Hey, I got an idea! Maybe the Tattooine in the Prequel Trilogy gets flooded and plants grow there and becomes the Dagobah of the Original Trilogy!!

And then, the Dagobah of the Prequel Trilogy gets too close to the sun and all the vegatation dies and all the water dries up, and becomes the Tattooine of the Original Trilogy!!

They just swap names!!

So that means that the cave is actually the place where the Sand People got slaughtered!!

It all makes perfect sense!!! Why didn't I think of it before??

[LordTyranus]

Originally posted by sbaxter@Aug. 01 2002 - 17:28
Further, this may serve to explain another prequel mystery. How does Palpatine/Sidious (same person or not) hide from the Jedi when they're _right there_, for crying out loud? Well, if a significant concentration of Dark Side energy can hide a Light-Side user, why not the other way around? It could well be that _the Jedi themselves_ are unwittingly shielding Darth Sidious and his dastardly deed-doing from detection.
I really like this idea, it makes perfect sense the Jedi can't detect the darkness under their nose's because there is so much light negating it, you earned yourself a cookie! :thumbs-up:

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Justin@Aug. 01 2002 - 21:40
Hey, I got an idea! Maybe the Tattooine in the Prequel Trilogy gets flooded and plants grow there and becomes the Dagobah of the Original Trilogy!!

And then, the Dagobah of the Prequel Trilogy gets too close to the sun and all the vegatation dies and all the water dries up, and becomes the Tattooine of the Original Trilogy!!

They *just swap names!!

So that means that the cave is actually the place where the Sand People got slaughtered!!

It all makes perfect sense!!! Why didn't I think of it before??
sbaxter will be very annoyed you got there first.

But don't forget that in sbaxter's unique universe maybe that planet should also become earth of the future and home to that city of talking apes.

Qapla'

[maddog62]

Get your paws of me you Dam dirty wookies.

[sbaxter]

Justin and Darth Badly:

Are there any actual points to your posts, other than to make poorly delievered, ill-conceived ad hominem attacks?

I don't think my theory is outlandish in a universe where there is "an energy field, created by all living things" which "surrounds us, penetrates us" and "binds the galaxy together."

If you want to respond to the idea I posted, please do. If you want to say you think my idea is wrong, please do -- but tell me _why_. If you think my idea is wacky, please say so, but tell _why_ you think so.

I fail to understand why the concept seems so difficult to grasp. Popping up to tell me I'm stupid or that my ideas are stupid is not a tactic you with which you will find success. I don't have anything personal against either of you, but neither do I particularly care whether you like me or not. I'm not here to make enemies, but nor am I searching for pen pals. I'm certainly not here to validate my intelligence; I already know I'm not stupid, so your opinions about that are meaningless.

I came here to discuss ideas. Anyone else here to do that, or are there only those who are so insecure in their masculinity, or so devoid of their own ideas, that they must resort to insulting others online as an outlet for their frustrations?

>don't forget that in sbaxter's unique universe maybe that planet should also become earth of the future and home to that city of talking apes.

That's pretty good, Darth. A combination of ad hominem and "Straw Man" all at once. Here you have attacked stupid ideas that you created as if they were mine.

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? I'm _still_ waiting for you to address the actual CONTENT of my ideas in some fashion that indicates _why_ you would reject them. Why do you shy from the challenge?

Qapla'

SSB

[Darth Badly]

sbaxter - we already did that on the Obi Wan's name thread when you first suggested the idea.

Well done on another short and to the point post. What are you trying to do, bore us all to death?

[Rogue_0009]

A most excellent theory dude,you get another cookie and this pacman thing :pacattack:

[JediBendu]

ya
good in theory

EU is bollux

unless of course you include the Ewoks Caravan of Courage movie :tie:

Tatooine would be the last place Anakin would even want to go - too many bad memories. He didn't even want to go down after he knew the escape pod had landed on Tatooine "See to it personally, commander. There'll be no one to stop us this time"

[sbaxter]

>sbaxter - we already did that on the Obi Wan's name thread when you first suggested the idea.

Did what?

>Well done on another short and to the point post. *What are you trying to do, bore us all to death?

How's this? Darth Badly resorts to yet another ad hominem attack. Content of idea _still_ ignored. Further, he still hasn't told us who or what is forcing him to read my posts.

>A most excellent theory dude,you get another cookie and this pacman thing

But ... the Pac-Man ate my cookie! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

>good in theory
>EU is bollux

True. Are you referring to the idea that Yoda is using the cave's Dark Side energy to mask his presence? I'm not certain exactly where I heard that first, but I think it was back shortly after ROTJ was released. In those days, there wasn't much EU stuff around, other than the comics -- and I know that isn't where I heard. Seems to me it was something that came straight from Lucasfilm, which is where some of the stuff that shows up in the EU actually comes from. As an example, many people think the name "Coruscant" and the concept of the Republic's capital planet being one giant city originated in one of the novels, but it actually came from a published source (I've forgotten exactly which) from Lucasfilm back in 1987, IIRC. The thing about Yoda using the tree to hide may have come first from a novelist or role-playing game rules or whatever. If that's so, then this theory is indeed built on a very flimsy tentpole. If it was part of Yoda's backstory, then it is on a bit more secure ground.

Either way, it has yet to be established on screen that this is what Yoda is doing. If it isn't, that pretty much washes out the theory.

As I began to piece this together, I realized that if you assume that theory is true, then it certainly seems consistent with several other things we've seen.

Does anyone know for certain where the story about Yoda hiding in the tree's "Force Shadow" originated?

Qapla'

SSB

[JediBendu]

It was called the Imperial City - RMcQ did some pretty cool art. Part of the Revenge of the Jedi ending had Luke battling Vader in the Imperial throne room, surrounded by lava.
Coruscant came with Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy.
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

[sbaxter]

>It was called the Imperial City - RMcQ did some pretty cool art.

According to the starwars.com site, it began as Alderaan in rough drafts of ANH, then changed to "Granicus." It reappeared in drafts of ROTJ as "Had Abbadon." I doubt that, even had the location actually been used in ROTJ, that name would have remained, because it strikes me as a bit too obvious in origin:

"They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon." -- Revelation 9:11

Abbadon is the Angel of Armageddon; he commands forth one of the nastier plagues mentioned in Revelation.

>Part of the Revenge of the Jedi ending had Luke battling Vader in the Imperial throne room, surrounded by lava.

Yeah, I've seen the painting that shows that. Assuming there is a lava pit duel in Episode 3, it would have made an interesting parallel had that actually been realized for ROTJ.

>Coruscant came with Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy.

Yes, I see that is what the starwars.com site says. I could swear I've seen indications that it came earlier than that, but I can't determine where. If I find that mention again, I'll post the information.

Qapla'

SSB

[Justin]

I though my post was pretty well-delivered, and it's a valid theory, if you go by any of the other "valid theories" around here. Just because I used a lot of punctuation doesn't mean I was being sarcastic. *snicker*

[sbaxter]

>I though my post was pretty well-delivered

I see. That's one intepretation ...

>and it's a valid theory, if you go by any of the other "valid theories" around here.

I guess that depends on your definition of "valid." Yours is essentially the old "difference that makes no difference" theory.

>Just because I used a lot of punctuation doesn't mean I was being sarcastic. **snicker*

Neither does the above sentence mean you weren't being sarcastic. And here you've added a "snicker" to the end of your message. If you have something to say, I request that you do so.

There are plenty of theories floating around this board that are screwier than others. To suggest they are all equally vaild, or at least equally likely, is absurd. If you believe that, you are not well-equipped to evaluate ideas. If you don't believe it, you are simply amusing yourself (which likely isn't difficult). Either way, you're wasting my time, so if you respond similarly in the future, expect it to be ignored.

Qapla'

SSB

[Mann]

So wait, the idea for coruscant came in Heir to the Empire, right? isn't that an EU book that Lucas doesn't follow? :scratchchin:

[sbaxter]

Yeah, but Heir to the Empire is a _good_ book! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Qapla'

SSB

[Mann]

Not saying it isn't. I love it. Zahn is the true Star Wars Master. I just thought that George didn't like the EU and that he came up with his own ideas.

[Darth Badly]

ANyway... guys, getting this back on topic...

Meanwhile back at sbaxter's dark shielding light theory:

I don't accept that the data log entry detailing the dark cave's origin will make it into the next film. *With all he's got to fit in already, how is Uncle George gonna cram in some dark Jedi as well?

But let's say for one second that it was true then my problems are:
1/ That I don't see Anakins slaughter of the sand people as equel (or near) in dark side force to a proper dark jedi being killed by Yoda. *Sure Anakin was mighty upset with the sand people for using his old mom as a sex toy for a month or so, but he has very good reason to be. *It wasn't an act of pure evil, more uncontrolled anger. *I don't accept that deed would leave the same kinda trace.
and more importantly:
2/ My problem with Ben hiding luke on Tatoonie has never been with the Emperor or Vader sensing they were there through the force. *It was and still is with Ben keeping his surname, and Luke keeping and using his unusual surname - even applying to the academy using it. *OK, so you're gonna say but no one was looking for them. *Well, not so. *Firstly Ben would have remained a target - even one of low importance - all those years. *And who's to say that Vader would not find out about Luke? *Either from someone who saw the birth like a servant now trying to sell the information or through dark side style visions / dreams. *
The idea of taking Luke to live with Vader's only living family on his birthworld is way way way to dangerous!

[Darth Badly]

Hey - Mr sbaxter - you gonna answer these points?

[DblDwn]

When Anakin becomes Vader, he separates his 'new' existence from his 'old' existence. It is not advertised across the Holonet that Darth Vader is the Jedi Formely Known As Anakin Skywalker (sorry to burst your Prince fantasy there Badly). That being said, John Doe Informant for the Empire isn't going to hear of a Luke Skywalker on Tattooine and assume that he just found the long lost son of Darth Vader. Only a few people will know what has become of Anakin, most likely Yoda, Obi-Wan, Emperor, Owen and Beru (athough not a guarantee), Padme, and maybe Bail Organa. Anyone else that came across a Skywalker isn't going to know anything about who he is, or what his destiny is to be.

[Justin]

sbaxter- I'm wasting your time? *As the immortal Spicoli said in the classic "Fast Times at Ridgemont High":

"If I'm here, and you're here, doesn't that make this our time?"

If I want to say something here, even if it's not entirely serious, I'm totally within my right to do so, as long as I'm not insulting anyone.

It seems to me that you've implied that I'm stupid, even if you didn't come right out and say it. *That's borderline flaming.

If you want to say I'm wasting your time with my posts, who's to say you're not wasting all of our time with yours?

I thought my idea was pretty funny; just because it wasn't entirely serious doesn't make it a waste of time. Maybe someone else thought it was funny as well.

Perhaps some people think that your outrageous theories are a waste of time. *But did I say so? No. You can post whatever you want here as long as you aren't flaming anyone. *

Lighten up, my friend. Arrogance leads to the Dark Side.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Justin@Aug. 04 2002 - 22:18
Lighten up, my friend. Arrogance leads to the Dark Side.
C'mon, there's no need for this. Maybe he misinterpreted your intent, but it's not necessary to spark things further. I can understand how he might interpret your earlier post as ridiculing him. That's not the way you meant it, so just say that. Perhaps he needs to lighten up, but then after reading your last post, I would say you need to as well.

[JediBendu]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>2/ My problem with Ben hiding luke on Tatoonie has never been with the Emperor or Vader sensing they were their through the force.[/b][/quote]

ahh yes but Sidious, Maul and Dooku have hid from the Jedi for years, why can't the opposite be true? *Especially by powerful Jedi like Yoda and Obi, who're out on the outer rim anyway. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

'I sense something, a presence I've not fealt since...'
- vader, anh

'Obi-Wan Kenobi? *Surely he must be dead by now?'
'Do not underestimate the power of the Force.'
- tarkin and vader, anh

The particulars of Obi and Vader parting are only for speculation, but Tarkin's reaction is interesting. *He doesn't say 'Hey didn't you kill him in your last encounter?' or 'Didn't he push you into a molten pit when you last met?'
He implies a loose end, but not one that would have deserved a search party from the Emperor. *I'm assuming if the Emperor even thought Obi was still alive, not to mention Yoda, he would hunt him down using every bounty hunter scum he could find. *Tarkin obviously knows him - as a General probably - but also thinks he was taken care of during the Jedi purge.

'The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe, you my friend are all that's left of their religion.'
- tarkin, anh

But Vader knows that it is Obi. *I'm thinking they'll have two encounters: *the first Obi will win and will think Anakin is dead but can't prove it; the second Vader will win and will think Obi is dead but can't prove it. Vader may even lie to the Emperor about it!

has the symmetry that GL likes so much.

[sbaxter]

>Hey - Mr sbaxter - you gonna answer these points?

Yes. A response is forthcoming. I took the weekend off to go with my wife to Orlando, and I didn't return home until last night.

Qapla'

SSB

[sbaxter]

>I just thought that George didn't like the EU and that he came up with his own ideas.

I believe that's a true statement, in general, but I think I've heard of him liking Zahn's trilogy, even if he might not have gone that way himself.

Qapla'

SSB

[sbaxter]

>I don't accept that the data log entry detailing the dark cave's origin will make it into the next film. *With all he's got to fit in already, how is Uncle George gonna cram in some dark Jedi as well?

That's a good question. I personally believe that everything will _not_ all be spelled out in the final installment. I figure it is more likely that the final movie will provide all the necessary pieces of the puzzle, but they'll still have to be assembled by the viewer.

As to this specific question, I think it could be resolved fairly easily with a few lines of dialogue. If the Jedi (or just a few of them) learn that Sidious _is_ using the vast Light Side sources on Coruscant to escape detection, then Yoda might say to Obi-Wan:

YODA: Leaves imprints of itself behind, the Force does. A duel I fought against a Dark Side warrior, long ago on a planet called Dagobah. Use it now to hide, I will. Remote it is, and uninhabited. Unlikely that Sidious and his apprectice would see anything of value there. Senator Amidala spoke of Anakin's anger and despair over the Sand People he killed on Tatooine. Felt it on Coruscant, I did. He views that planet as a reminder of his former life. Seek further reminders of this pain he will not. You can take the boy there and use that Dark Side nexus to avoid being detected.

Obi-Wan: Tatooine is quite remote as well, and controlled by the Hutts. As long as that continues, Sidious is unlikely to establish much of a presence there. We should be safe. I will take the boy to Anakin's stepbrother; if it is true that he will avoid reminders of his former life, then he will certainly avoid the Lars farm. If I feel the boy or the situation is jeopardized, I will bring him to you.

YODA: So much the better. I will remain on Dagobah; when the time is right, you may bring him to me and train him I will. Only through the son will the father bring balance to the Force.

The above dialogue could be delivered in well under two minutes of screen time.

>1/ That I don't see Anakins slaughter of the sand people as equel (or near) in dark side force to a proper dark jedi being killed by Yoda.

Well, don't forget that Yoda would not leave a Dark Side imprint. Only the one Dark Jedi would have done so. So it would the outporuring of emotion and Dark Side energy of only one person, or more than one but with focus made through one person. If what is required is raw Dark Side emotion and a single Dark Side Force sensitive, through whom the Dark Side is flowing, then Anakin's actions should definitely qualify.

>Sure Anakin was mighty upset with the sand people for using his old mom as a sex toy for a month or so, but he has very good reason to be. It wasn't an act of pure evil, more uncontrolled anger.

I don't question that Anakin's anger was understandable. It certainly was. However, In ESB Yoda did say: "Anger, fear, aggression ... the Dark Side of the Force are they." And also, in Phantom Menace: "Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering." Anakin's fear that his mother might die lead to anger at her death. His anger lead to hate of the Sand People who caused her death, and that hatred lead to their hate, anger, fear and suffering as he killed them. And remember, too, that Anakin's actions and the turmoil he was in at the time were felt by Yoda many light years away.

>2/ My problem with Ben hiding luke on Tatoonie has never been with the Emperor or Vader sensing they were there through the force. *It was and still is with Ben keeping his surname,

I theorize that the names of most individual Jedi -- especially those not on the council -- are not generally known to the public at large, any more than you and I know the names of a given person holding the rank of captain in today's army. It isn't a secret, per se; there's no reason we couldn't know, but it would be essentially like knowing the names of every single citizen of a small town of which we are not residents ourselves.

>and Luke keeping and using his unusual surname

How do we know it is unusual? No one ever makes any mention of the name of something unusual. Antilles is a common name, so we are told, so why not Skywalker?

>even applying to the academy using it.

Which Luke hasn't done. Granted, he wants to do it soon, but he hasn't yet. I'd say it is a given that Obi-Wan knows he and Luke aren't going to stay on Tatooine forever, but he wants it to last until "the time is right," however one defines _that_. I wonder if Owen's efforts to keep Luke around are an extension of Obi-Wan's desire to keep Luke from detection?

>Ben would have remained a target - even one of low importance - all those years.

_If_ he is believed alive, I'd agree. But I think it more likely he is thought to be dead, at least _probably_ dead.

>And who's to say that Vader would not find out about Luke? *Either from someone who saw the birth like a servant now trying to sell the information

If there was any such person. We have no reason yet to speculate on the existence of such a person.

>through dark side style visions / dreams.

Okay, but that theory could be used against virtually anything that could be viewed as a victory*against the Dark Side, and yet they still happen. I think it makes sense to assume that if the Dark Side nexus exists on Tatooine, it might shield all aspects of the existence of a person using it to hide; not only would that person's physical presence be hidden, but also that person's existence and future path as a part of the Force as well. This would have the effect of shielding visions having to do with that person.

This requires further development, because none of these events happen in a vacuum. Perhaps Sidious and/or Vader suspect at first that Kenobi might have survived, but if probing carefully with the Force fails to turn up any further sense of him, then they might conclude he is dead, given the absence of any reason to think otherwise.

>The idea of taking Luke to live with Vader's only living family on his birthworld is way way way to dangerous!

And yet he _does_. I believe the idea that Lucas has either forgotten about this fact or hopes we won't notice it is so unlikely as to be not worth pursuing. Given that, a reasonable explanation for why Obi-Wan does this must exist.

>Tarkin's reaction is interesting. *He doesn't say 'Hey didn't you kill him in your last encounter?' or 'Didn't he push you into a molten pit when you last met?' He implies a loose end, but not one that would have deserved a search party from the Emperor.

That's true. This may play into the idea that though they do not know for certain that Obi-Wan is dead (since he isn't, of course), but that their failure to sense him coupled with the belief he has probably been killed means they see no reason to go searching all over the galaxy for him. However, given a lack of _certainty_, the fact that Obi-Wan later turns up on the Death Star is a surprise for Vader, but not the shock of the century.

I really believe my theory is an integral part of the reason why Obi-Wan is able to hide. I think it encompasses the following:

1. Obi-Wan is believed likely killed somehow (in Episode 3) already.

2. Tatooine is a remote planet with little Republic/Imperial presence, even up to the time of ANH.

3. The names "Kenobi" and "Skywalker" don't mean anything special to most ordinary beings, and don't really attract any attention.

4. Tatooine is a planet that belongs to a past life, leading Vader to feel a need to cut all ties to the place.

5. It is also a planet that is holds extremely painful memories for Anakin, making it doubly unlikely he'd ever choose to go there just to nose around.

6. The Emperor and Vader believe that Padme was pregnant with a single child, and they further believe that Padme died before the child was born -- neither of which is true.

Now. on to Justin:

I apologize if I misread the intent of your message, but I perceived it as intentionally ambiguous. You first posted that you were serious, and now you seem to indicate that you weren't _entirely_ serious. And your second post on the matter ended with "snicker." What am I to make of that? Candy bars on your mind?

>If I want to say something here, even if it's not entirely serious, I'm totally within my right to do so, as long as I'm not insulting anyone.

Some others here seem to believe that insulting others is perfectly acceptable.

You may, of course, post as you like. I issued no orders to you at any point. I never suggested that you _couldn't_ post whatever you wish. I did indicate what I thought of what it seemed to me that you were doing, i.e., posting a theory you deem ridiculous as some sort of editorial comment on my theory. I believe that I am equally within my rights to say what think about that. If I think that you are essentially posting nonsense to try to goad me into debating a topic simply because you want me expending energy on something foolish, then that is my definition of wasted time for me, because you would be engaging me in a debate under pretense. Under those circumstances, I see no reason I should be unable to post my opinion of such a practice, and also that I planned to ignore future posts along the same line.

And the Spicoli quote doesn't really wash as an analogy. Spicoli and Mr. Hand were each where they were because they essentially _had_ to be there. You and I, on the other hand, choose to be in this BB; no one is forcing us to post here. I do not post in order to make others look foolish; I don't think that is what the BB is for. It is what I _thought you were trying to do, hence the reference to wasted time.

If this is, in fact, _not_ what you were doing, then I am truly sorry, but I felt your meaning wasn't clear.

Qapla'

SSB

[Darth Badly]

I think your dialogue for Yoda and Obi Wan proves how difficult an idea this theory of yours would be to get over to a audience. *Look how awful the dialogue you suggest is and how long it is. *Then imagine trying to explain the same things in proper dialogue, with Yoda's speech pattern, AND to Joe Average instead of a SW buff.

It'll be murder.

[DblDwn]

OK Sbaxter I respect your opinions and the fact that you state examples and/or an argument to back up your claims, but dude.......c'mon.........trying to read through your posts makes reading War and Peace look like a Roses are Red poem. I don't want to nag, but can you simplify what you are trying to say into a little less dialogue please?

[Justin]

Do what I do: make your paragraphs 2 or 3 sentences long and put space between them. It makes your posts easier to read.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Aug. 06 2002 - 20:40
OK Sbaxter I respect your opinions and the fact that you state examples and/or an argument to back up your claims, but dude.......c'mon.........trying to read through your posts makes reading War and Peace look like a Roses are Red poem. I don't want to nag, but can you simplify what you are trying to say into a little less dialogue please?
Lol!!! :)

[sbaxter]

>Look how awful the dialogue you suggest is and how long it is.

Yeah, I'm not a fiction writer, so my dialogue is pretty stilted. But it isn't long. Even allowing for dramatic pauses and such, it could easily be delivered in two minutes of screen time ... as I noted the first time.

>AND to Joe Average instead of a SW buff.

Some of these things (whatever they turn out to be) are going to be missed by Joe Average. Don't see much of a way around that.

>trying to read through your posts makes reading War and Peace look like a Roses are Red poem.

Only in comparison to other posts here, many of which aren't nearly thorough enough. And some might note that reading War and Peace is a rewarding experience despite the length.

>I don't want to nag, but can you simplify what you are trying to say into a little less dialogue please?

I'll give it a shot, considering that you asked nicely. But no promises. ;)

>Do what I do: *make your paragraphs 2 or 3 sentences long and put space between them.

Most of my paragraphs are three or four sentences long, and I _do_ put a space between them. Are you not seeing them that way? I wonder if that is something that can display differently on different systems. Hmmm.

Qapla'

SSB

[Darth Badly]

QUOTE: *Look how awful the dialogue you suggest is and how long it is.

sbaxter quote: *Yeah, I'm not a fiction writer, so my dialogue is pretty stilted. But it isn't long. Even allowing for dramatic pauses and such, it could easily be delivered in two minutes of screen time ... as I noted the first time. *END QUOTE

Firstly: *Yeah, I know you said that the first time around. *But you said it like two minutes is a short time. *It's not. *A conversation about light / dark force zones that went on for 120 seconds would seem to be going on forever in the middle of a film. It would kill any pace it had develped. *As we've seen from the stuff cut from Attack of the Clowns (which we'll see on the DVD) Lucus tries to avoid this sort of thing at all costs, he's worried that it'll slow down the film and hurt his audience. *In my view he cut too may of the exposition scenes out of Clowns and rendered the complex back plot too hard to understand and lost much of the characters motivations as well.

My point is that to a screenwriter two minutes is far too long to have the characters standing around discussing a minor (but important to us) piece of background plot. *

I don't think it could probably be explained a lot quicer, and so I do not think Lucus will include it (in any form) in Ep III.

[sbaxter]

>But you said it like two minutes is a short time. *It's not. *A conversation about light / dark force zones that went on for 120 seconds would seem to be going on forever in the middle of a film.

That depends on a lot of factors. It could be going on while the characters are doing other things, for example. It can also be delivered in as little as one minute and 15 seconds, I think. Plus, as you noted, my writing isn't that great (it _was_ a first draft); it could certainly be streamlined. I have no idea whether it will all be explained or not. As I have said before, I expect some things will still require puzzle pieces to be assembled.

>It would kill any pace it had develped.

That depends on where it falls in the film and in relation to other events before and after. Sometimes you _want_ to slow down the pace.

>In my view he cut too may of the exposition scenes out of Clowns and rendered the complex back plot too hard to understand and lost much of the characters motivations as well.

I understand what you mean, but I think that the underlying plot can still be discerned if you are willing to make the effort. You seem to have deduced most of it, after all.

>My point is that to a screenwriter two minutes is far too long to have the characters standing around discussing a minor (but important to us) piece of background plot.

Again, why must they be standing around discussing this? For example, Padme declares her love for Anakin, and then Anakin explains to Obi-Wan why they came to Geonosis and how they decided to attempt to rescue him. A fair bit of dialogue, but these scenes take place while Anakin and Padme are being taken to the center of the arena and chained to the columns, in preparation for them being killed in front of thousands of spectators.

I'll have to try timing some of the scenes in Phantom Menace that feature people standing around talking.

>I do not think Lucus will include it (in any form) in Ep III.

I guess we'll find out. I freely admit (as I have before) that my idea may prove completely off-base.

Qapla'

SSB

[maddog62]

Great posts guys. Impressive.

[Darth Badly]

sbaxter QUOTE Again, why must they be standing around discussing this? For example, Padme declares her love for Anakin, and then Anakin explains to Obi-Wan why they came to Geonosis and how they decided to attempt to rescue him. A fair bit of dialogue, but these scenes take place while Anakin and Padme are being taken to the center of the arena and chained to the columns, in preparation for them being killed in front of thousands of spectators. END QUOTE

It's a fair point that the characters don't HAVE to be just standing around BUT Anakin etc were talking about something really important: ie that they love each other and they wanted Obi Wan to know before they all died.

If Anakin had started the same dialogue:

ANAKIN: "Master, I know this might seem a bad time but before we all die I'd like to discuss with you the importance or not of light / dark force areas and how one might have been created by my slaughter of the Sand People in the last film. It's always puzzled me that..."

I think Obi Wan might have told him to shut up.

[sbaxter]

>It's a fair point that the characters don't HAVE to be just standing around BUT Anakin etc were talking about something really important: *ie that they love each other and they wanted Obi Wan to know before they all died.

That's true, but I'd say that a plan for avoiding detection and keeping Luke safe (we'll assume here that Leia's situation has already been resolved) meets the definition of "important" as well.
*
>If Anakin had started the same dialogue: *
ANAKIN: "Master, I know this might seem a bad time but before we all die I'd like to discuss with you

I'm not suggesting that this very different set of subjects would be addressed under the same or similar circumstances as my example From AOTC. All that would be required is that the characters be doing _something_ (or that something is happening at the same time and that we know it is happening) that furthers the plot as in the example, and that the characters be able to communicate at the same time. Countless things could be transpiring at the time any required dialogue is delivered. It need not be in the form of a lecture, as your hypothetical suggests Anakin is requesting. Also, your example suggests a subject for discussion that is irrelevant to the situation. The dialogue in question could be delivered as the characters are making or preparing to make their escape, which would make the subject very relevant indeed.

>I think Obi Wan might have told him to shut up.

Maybe not in so many words ... actually, I was impressed with Obi-Wan's control more than once; I really expected him to slap Anakin on the back of the head when he contradicted his master during their first meeting with Padme.

Qapla'

SSB

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by sbaxter@Aug. 08 2002 - 09:57
Maybe not in so many words ... actually, I was impressed with Obi-Wan's control more than once; I really expected him to slap Anakin on the back of the head when he contradicted his master during their first meeting with Padme.
I think Anakin did get the verbal equivalent of a slap to the head. Maybe more. Obi-wan definitely gave him a dressing down.

[DblDwn]

Wouldn't a slap on the back of the head be considered an act of aggression which would in turn be considered the path to the Dark Side?

[sbaxter]

>Wouldn't a slap on the back of the head be considered an act of aggression which would in turn be considered the path to the Dark Side?

First, a serious answer: It depends. I don't think the Force is legalistic. It seems to be impersonal, more or less, so what matters in respect to your question is what Obi-Wan is _feeling_, not the action he takes. If he were to get angry and smack Anakin as a reflex action or out of a desire to humiliate him, then I'd say yes, it would be a Dark Side act. On the other, if it were the normal way a master corrects a padawan, and was administered without malice (which _is_ possible -- though it wasn't what I was suggesting), then no, probably not.

Also, I think it is clear that while a good Jedi seems to be calm most of the time, almost serene, I don't think we need come to the mistaken conclusion that they don't get angry. Clearly they do. There are numerous examples in both TPM and especially AOTC, that support this. However, they are not controlled by their anger (or fear or pain, etc.).

And the less serious answer:

Yeah, but the uppity little snot had it coming.

Qapla'

SSB

[Leia]

Sorry, I've kind of skipped a lot of this, but all I want to say is... Do any of you actually believe that George Lucas sits down and thinks out long and involved reasons behind every single thing that happens in the movies?? I mean, if he'd thought everything through, wouldn't we have heard some sort of mention of Qui-Gon in the original trilogy? Not everything has to have a crazy theory behind it. Anyway, I always figured the cave incident was just an unsubstantial vision from Luke's subconscious. A visual representation of his darkest fear. Oh, and sbaxter, please use the italic button at the top of the screen, the dashes are driving me crazy...

[Darth Badly]

Leia - I think it's a boy thing.

[sbaxter]

>Do any of you actually believe that George Lucas sits down and thinks out long and involved reasons behind every single thing that happens in the movies??

I don't think he did so for the entire saga at once, not back at the beginning. I think he had a general plan for where the saga starts and where it ends, and the plan has been refined with each film that has been made. I suspects that lots of changes, some major, some minor, have been made over the years. I suspect he has a rather detailed plan at this point where Episode 3 must go and what it will contain.

>I mean, if he'd thought everything through, wouldn't we have heard some sort of mention of Qui-Gon in the original trilogy?

Possibly.

>Not everything has to have a crazy theory behind it.

A crazy theory. I'm hurt!

Anyway, leaving out the "crazy" part, I believe that thinking there are all these things in any story that are done "just because" is to ignore the way stories are structured and devised. Almost everything serves a purpose, and it is my belief that much of the mystery in the saga points to some sort of unifying set of reasons these things happen. In other words, stories must (or at least should) make sense. Leaving a huge haul of red herrings flopping around doesn't seem like Lucas' style to me.

>Anyway, I always figured the cave incident was just an unsubstantial vision from Luke's subconscious. *A visual representation of his darkest fear.

You're right, in a sense. What Luke saw may have been a fear of his, and it was definitely a warning and a possible foreshadowing of the secret he would soon learn. But that doesn't explain how a tree and cave came to be strong with the Dark Side. I certainly don't like the idea that "it just is," but it may not be explained.

>Oh, and sbaxter, please use the italic button at the top of the screen, the dashes are driving me crazy...

I have never seen people who had such a low tolerance for writing style differences! Sheesh. I'll try ... but I've been on way more mailing lists than BBs, and using an underscore at the beginning and end of words is a perfectly acceptable practice to indicate italics. Thicker skin, folks! ;)

And I think Darth Badly is right -- in general terms, this seems to be a male thing.

Qapla'

SSB

[T-bone]

Yee haw! It's resurrect old thread day at the senate!

Just reply to the first post of the thread. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Master_Mams]

The tusken darkside well theory is quite absurd imho. I mean the tantive IV would then be a hell of a darkside well in that case.
Luke may be slightly force sensitive when he grew up in tatooine, but not enough to create a disturbance in the force as he does in ESB. He is not the chosen one after all, just his son with a great potential for the force.
And also we shouldn't forget that tatooine is a very remote planet from the outer rim. As luke said to han in rotj: "I used to live here you know, there's nothing to see".

Now for me the real mystery is why they keep the name skywalker for luke. Could it be that everybody (and therefore the Empire) thinks that luke is owen's son? But luke calls him uncle, and beru is called aunt by him too. At least obiwan has changed his name to Ben.

Someone said before in this topic that vader would never go back to tatooine, and I agree with that statement. Going back to tatooine wouldn't strenghten vader up, it would hurt him.

Tatooine always seemed to me as a neutral place, where people like jabba, kenobi and solo can go do their business without being concerned about the empire. But this doesn't explain why they keep the name skywalker for luke.

About Yoda and dagobah, now that we are almost sure that he won't confront any darkjedi in the cave (strange place to go duel someone to start with if you ask me), I agree with the bipolar force opposite theory. The cave should cloud or at least shield his force aura. But the strange thing is that in the OT sidious or vader are never concerned about yoda. As a matter of fact they act as if yoda was dead. "Obi wan can no longer help him", yeah sure, but what about the lil'green guy? Could it be that during episode III Yoda fakes his own death?

[kevino]

As for the changing name thing, in the 70's when Charles Manson was America's Most wanted, does that mean anyone with the surname Manson was hauled up before the FBI?? No, so OBW was "General Obi Wan Kenobi" of the republic and is a wanted man-cue name change and new low profile existence on a far off planet. Luke Skywalker was not "wanted" as Sidious/Palpatine don't know he's born maybe and if they do, maybe they don't know his name???

All Supposition, we'll see what GL pulls from the checked shirt in 122 days..............

[obi two]

i havn't read many other spoilers so forgive me if we already know this is a fact.
who's to say that ani in his last moments of light before he turns forever to the dark, tells obi to go take his child and hide.
it would be like hiding the millenium falcon on the radar. why would anyone hide somewhere so obvious.
also im not convinced in his arrogance as vader that obi and a child would be seen as a threat.
im assuming a hermit wasnt on any official register or census to alert the empire of his existence.
did he ever say his name was old ben kenobi?
leia seemed to know exactly where to find him, was he still in tentative contact with the alliance, or were they just going for last known address and got lucky?
vader must have wanted no reminders of his mother and former life, so he in effect 'forgot' about owen, as to him they were insignificant