Into the Lake of Fire

[Jedi Master Yung]

Maybe I'm just being stupid and showing my ignorance, but where did the idea for 'final' duel taking place on a 'lava planet' come from? *I read a supposed treatment yesterday online that was supposedly written in 1983 for EpIII. *There were various things wrong with it, but it did have the lava planet duel in it. *I know the whole thing probably was false but it got me thinking, I never really could remember if the lava planet thing had been confirmed from anybody high up (doubtful), was a really popular rumour, based on something said in one of the other movies, or what? *I know I 've heard it for a while and just couldn't remeber its validity. *Anyway, hopefully someone can clear things up for me and not think I'm retarded. *
Thanks
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[Darth Badly]

I think it was mentioned in one of the novels of the films. But it's never (as far as I know) been confirmed from Lucus himself that it either does happen or will ever be shown on film. Lucus might well decide on something else.

[JediBendu]

The novelisation of ROJ had Obi-Wan explaining his final encounter with Anakin, the result of which being Anakin ending up falling into a 'molten pit'.
The preliminary script for ROJ had the final Vader v Luke duel in the Imperial throne room, whish surrounded by lava. *RMcQ did some preliminary work [now called Coruscant] , but the scene was scrapped for the DS. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/trooperz.gif

[Tovor]

The duel around lava idea has been around for nearly as long as the film series itself. *Being an old-timer on these boards, I remember reading in late 1977 in Starlog magazine a story giving a short amount of background on the characters, and it revealed the story of Vader falling into a molten pit during a duel with Obi-Wan. *If Lucas had stated that to Starlog for their story while he was still working out the further stories in his head, and later forgot about that detail (like the one about making 9 films instead of 6, which he now says was taken out of context--an easy way out), I consider it semi-official word since he can still change his mind. *It has been reported multiple times since then in other publications such as interview reports and non-Lucas-written continuance stories, but that may be others jumping on the bandwagon and following up from an established bit of info which may change in GL's head or already has. *

I think, if it does happen, that it will be a molten pit of some kind but certainly not lava. *Lava, as we all know, is melted rock, and when you have something of such an insanely high temperature, there is no thing alive and semi-solid which can climb out again. *Even for the Chosen one. *But, Lucas gives us people walking in asteroid caves without space suits and in the body of a space worm at that, so who knows what he may have us made to accept in the next one.

[maddog62]

Where the bad folks go when the die. They don't go to heaven where the angels fly. They go to a lake of fire and fry. See you again on the 4th of July.

[Tovor]

Sounds like you're a poet and you came here to show it.

[Rinc]

Maybe it doesn't have to be a lava pit and Tovor said i don't think even the chosen one aided by the emperor could come out out of that one alive. I'd love to see Anakin seriously injured in the jedi temple during a duel with Obi-Wan as it is being destroyed by the new empire.

[catwmnjedi]

Maddog62's quote is from some old gospel song that the Meat Puppets redid, then Nirvana recorded it on their "Unplugged" CD. I have that CD, so I recognized it. Funny! :lol:

[Justin]

For crying out loud, I just started a thread on this a few days ago!!! Doesn't anyone ever read through the topics anymore??

[Justin]

Well, I just looked high and low for that thread I made, and I couldn't find it. I guess I must have forgotten to click the "add topic" button. Crap.

[JediBendu]

lol Justin!

How hot would it have to be to start melting flesh? *I agree that directly falling in molten lava is just too much, even for GL. *But it's a molten pit - perhaps he falls in, Obi assumes he's a goner, but Anakin doesn't fall in but lands just near it, starts being seered alive until a probe/medical/tracker droid picks up Anakin for the Emperor *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tie.gif

[Senator Theant]

Well this is a good question. And being in the opposite generation of Star Wars fans--the second generation, that is--as Tovor, I have heard little substanial material to back up the theory. I forget where I first heard the theory to begin with. Understanding where it may have been that claimed Vader's humanity is very helpful in painting a picture of Ep III; lava as the culprit does not make much sense, as Tovor pointed out.

Already in the two prequel installments--TPM and AOTC--we have witnessed injury inflicted by power binders and couplings (sp?). Jar Jar in the first film and Anakin and Obi Wan in the second. Because of Anakin's skills in the field, we have seen an emphasis on mechanical repair and maintenance. It would seem appropiate for Anakin--a very skilled technician who is losing grip on the events around him--to suffer his fate at the hands of a mechanical mishap.

Perhaps he fights Obi Wan in another factory setting, similar to the one we saw in AOTC? Or perhaps Anakin and OBi Wan duel in the surroundings of Palpatine's hideout in Coruscant? I would appreciate of guys' take on this theory. Me and moonsofbogden are working together on a script for Ep III, just for the hell of it. So . . . what do you guys think?

[Lord_Floyd]

Just a clarification. If you are in a volcano, its magma, it is not lava until it erupts out of the volcano.

Carry on my wayward suns
There will be peace in the Galaxy when you are done
Lay your weary black helmet to rest
dont be dark no more

[LordTyranus]

I've been thinking, what if there is no "molten pit" at all, what if during their duel a massive explosion happens near Anakin, or maybe an explosion is caused when Anakin tries force lightning and hits something, could be why he never toys with that again.

[Tovor]

It would seem appropiate for Anakin--a very skilled technician who is losing grip on the events around him--to suffer his fate at the hands of a mechanical mishap.

Perhaps he fights Obi Wan in another factory setting, similar to the one we saw in AOTC? Or perhaps Anakin and OBi Wan duel in the surroundings of Palpatine's hideout in Coruscant
I like that idea. *We saw Anakin lose the end of his saber handle and 3PO lose his head by moving parts, and we also saw the melted steel poured into receptacles. *If we (logically) rule out the lava or magma, and consider instead the battered and crushed body of the defeated Anakin, his second arm severed by Kenobi's saber, falling partially into a vat of melted steel (which is still too hot for any human to survive, but that was why I said partially), then we have the perfect setting for Anakin to die and Vader to be born. *Sort of the way Jack Napier fell into the vat of chemicals in Batman and crawled out to go to the surgeon who completed the work on him and the Joker was unveiled; except in this case it will be Sideous and his Sith alchemy and his secret doctors who finish the work on the barely alive Vader.

[LordTyranus]

He's also going to have to inhale some heavy doses of super hot air or gas to mess up his lungs as they were.

[Senator Theant]

If we (logically) rule out the lava or magma, and consider instead the battered and crushed body of the defeated Anakin, his second arm severed by Kenobi's saber, falling partially into a vat of melted steel (which is still too hot for any human to survive, but that was why I said partially), then we have the perfect setting for Anakin to die and Vader to be born.

In my post, I was hinting at a possible encounter with those electric binder/couplings that have appeared twice in the prequel installlments and seem to be harmful enough. Magnify the power to the voltage used in factory evironments (like the droid factory on Geonosis) and youve got a potentially lethal weapon. If anyone were to be stuck in that for quite some time, they could be easily rendered handicapped and in dire need of breath-assisting instruments. How does that seem?

[Angel_Blue]

If anyone ever read the Annotated Screenplays for the Star Wars Trilogy it states in there that Obi Wan pushes Anikan down a nuclear reactor chute............seriously.I read it last night. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

[Angel_Blue]

This has nothing to do with this again lol but thanx for helpin me out Tovor style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Senator Theant]

A nuclear reactor chute? Are you serious? All the Star Wars technology out there . . . lightsaber crystals, anti-grav devices om EVERYTHING, and theyre still using nuclear technology? I dont know if im the only one but doesnt that seem a bit odd?

If its true, then it means that the epic duel between Vader and OBi Wan will be fought in some ancient abandoned factory or the like . . .

[JediBendu]

I was hinting at a possible encounter with those electric binder/couplings that have appeared twice

ya - but both times they were used as comic relief. If he uses them again, which he probably will, then it will probably be funny.

How about triggering some midichlorian spontaneous combustion with explodes 60% of all Anakin's cells from the chest down. :scatter:

[Senator Theant]

Hmmmm . . . good point. I look dumb :dunce: .


I do think it could be used as a excellent dramatical device. But thats my opinion. Since me and moonsofbogden have started working on a script, Anakin's loss of humanity is increasinbly hard to depict. I could use as many suggestions as possible, but I think I like the scenario of the electric binders/couplings.

[Senator Theant]

Hmmmm . . . good point. I look dumb :dunce: .


I do think it could be used as a excellent dramatical device. But thats my opinion. Since me and moonsofbogden have started working on a script, Anakin's loss of humanity is proving increasinbly hard to depict. I could use as many suggestions as possible, but I think I like the scenario of the electric binders/couplings.

[JediBendu]

loosing his mother
loosing his girlfriend (after loosing his virginity that is)
loosing his mentor
loosing his faith in the Senate
loosing his faith in the Jedi code
loosing his mind to grief, anger, hatred and suffering
loosing his himself in the dark side
finding his strength in fear

[Senator Theant]

hmmmm . . . thanks, Jedi. Your suggestions are helpful. When I reffered to Anakin's fall, I was suggesting the catalyst of his downfall. Im asking what is was that did it for him. Up to this point, Anakin is en route to becoming Vader, but not yet. Something instantaneous and not gradual will boil all his judegements into one pot: hatred. Mistrust of the Senate, ill-faith in the Council, new found strength through anger/fear, etc. will become one. Losing Padme is the perfect explanation for losing his mind.

So the question is, how does he lose his "humanity"? Understand what im sayin? Thats what the debate here is all about.

[JediBendu]

then the question has already been answered.
He lost his humanity when he butchered the Tusken's. *The catalyst is his mother's death.

'Your thoughts dwell on your mother'
'I miss her'
'Afraid to loose her, I think'
'What's that got to do with anything?'

Yoda's already pinned it down. *It had everything to do with it.

The killing of the Jedi I think will be portrayed as lustfull vengence. *Someone's posted on another thread that Anakin would develop an obsession, which develops into an addiction which he tries to sate but fails. *He acquires a taste for killing, the dark side only fueling it.
Anakin's going to be dark and brooding from the first minute of ep3 methinks *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

[jangofett100]

I reckon the final duel will be like a replay of the battle in TPM, with Anakin and Obi-Wan fighting in a cave, jumping over rock platforms above a pit of lava (maybe down underneath the surface of a planet). Anakin would push Obi-Wan off a ledge like Maul does, but Obi-Wan would jump up and kick Anakin into the lava. Maybe.

[Jedi Knight Buhda Cho]

Greetings,
Here is an alternative to the lava pit scenario:
* * * * * * * *The slave transmitter from TPM. *
Not mentioned in ATOC. *And now only known to 2 living beings - Jar-Jar & Padme. *
Plausible scenario: *
Somehow Obi-Wan and Yoda discover Palpatine's true identity after Anakin has already pledged his allegiance to his new master (unbeknownst to the Jedi however is this pledge). *When Mace, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Padme etc. make their move against Palpatine, Anakin steps in to protect The Chancellor. *Dooku could fit in (on either side) or already be eliminated thus allowing Anakin to sit at the Chancellor's side. *Knowing there is no other way to stop the ever growing power of Anakin, Padme shares the slave transmitter info with someone who uses it. *Detonation of the device could render his body mostly destroyed. *This would also allow Anakin to live on HATE & VENGENCE and possibly face his wife on opposite sides of a war as Vader. *After Anakin is detonated, his dying wish is for Obi-wan to train the boy. *Anakin may have knowledge of the pregnancy before this event or not. *
Furthermore, there could be a funeral (without a body) for Anakin where everyone accepts his death. *Dark side magic resurrects whats left of the body after the funeral thus giving more power to the Ep. V revelation. *

Later,
Jedi Knight Buhda Cho

Go Ani Go!

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Senator Theant@Aug. 02 2002 - 22:40
Up to this point, Anakin is en route to becoming Vader, but not yet. Something instantaneous and not gradual will boil all his judegements into one pot: hatred. Mistrust of the Senate, ill-faith in the Council, new found strength through anger/fear, etc. will become one. Losing Padme is the perfect explanation for losing his mind.

So the question is, how does he lose his "humanity"?
Could it be the injuries themselves that Anakin suffers against Kenobi that finally pushes him over? Once that happens, his life as he's known it is over. He'll be suffering physically for the remainder of his days. I think that would be more than enough to fuel continued rage and completely push him to the Dark Side.

[Senator Theant]

Great ideas. . .

Fundamentally, Jedi, you are absolutely right. Anakin has already lost his humanity entering Ep III. Props on the way you pointed that out style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif . Anakin's mom's death was certainly the catalyst, but a piece of the theme here nonetheless. Losing his mother was terribly tragic, losing his wife will prove overwhelming. In my opinion, Anakin is the most sympathetic character in the saga and Lucas, through him, is teaching us the sad story of redemption. But you are certainly right in that he has indeed lost his humanity when his mother died.

Above the surface, Anakins loses control of his normal bodily functions (ie humanity) when he suffers trauma as a result from a duel with his former master, Obi Wan Kenobi. What sort of tool will Lucas use to depict Anakin's suffering? Good question. As I have stated before, I beleive that Anakin and OBi Wan wil duel in a factory setting (much like the setting in Geonosis or Palpatine's hideout in Coruscant). When Obi Wan performs another come-from-behind trick, Anakin loses the battle and, ultimately, his physical appearence (sorry girls :tears: ). I agree with jangofett100 in that the chute Anakin falls in would resemble the one MAul fell into in TPM. Except, this one is electrically charged and fries Anakin until Palp has time to rescue him. My theory is based in the fact that, up to this point, Anakin has looked to field of mechanics as his refuge from the events around him. "Everything's so mcuh simpler when youre fixing things" (AOTC). When he is fried, Anakin loses even his refuge and his identity. He becomes Vader, a whole other personality and character as far as the two are concerned. This plays nicely with Obi Wan's "Vader killed your father" revelation to Luke in the original trilogy. What do you think?

[JediBendu]

Anakin is the most sympathetic character

I have no sympathy for a butcher. *It was up to his kids to do show him what having a spine is about. *He owed the universe big time - killing the Emperor isn't even a down payment.

I like JK Buhda Cho's idea with the slave transmitter over the power plant incident. *Both are examples of technology coming back to bite him, which I agree, will probably be the theme.

Anakin would have already accepted the dark side totally when he duels with Obi, there wouldn't be any reason for them to duel if he hadn't. *The dark energies sustained him while his injuries *healed, rather than the injuries themselves sparking the dark side.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Aug. 04 2002 - 02:05
Anakin would have already accepted the dark side totally when he duels with Obi, there wouldn't be any reason for them to duel if he hadn't. *
Not really. Anakin's problem is that he can't control his anger. We see his barely contained rage throughout AOTC with the Tusken slaughter being the one time he completely loses control. Against Obi-wan, he need not already be a dark sider. If an argument ensues involving Anakin's marriage to Padme, or if Kenobi is telling him he'll be expelled from the order, that would likely be enough to bring about an explosion from Anakin.

When his anger is involved, he doesn't think. Look at what happened with Dooku. "Wait. We'll take him together."
"No, I'm taking him now." It wouldn't take much for Anakin to ignite his saber and attack.

Also, consider when Padme falls off that transport and Anakin wants to go back for her in AOTC. He was completely in Obi-wan's face about that, not showing any indication of listening to his Master's reasoning. He feels that strongly about her. In epIII, it's likely their conversation will similarly be about Padme, but the difference will be that Anakin does not back down.

In my opinion, Anakin won't be fully turned until he sustains his injuries. I think that will the final blow that pushes him fully to the Dark Side and fuels his rage against Kenobi and the Jedi.

[Angel_Blue]

We should feel sorry for Ani i think,i mean you can see he WANTS to be good in Ep II:"I will even be able to stop people from dying"you know he wants to be a Jedi not a Sith,so it is sad, anyone else have thoughts like this? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[Angel_Blue]

Also how do we know that Ani is bad when he gets the physical(and mental) damage. He could be fighting in the Clone Wars or somethin and there is a big bomb thingy ??? um or somethin that starts to tear appart the planet, and him and Obi Wan are close to it and the tremors split the surface appart, Obi Wan bumps into Ani and Ani falls into the crack and "dies"(or so we think)Ani ,beleiving Obi Wan purposly pushed him in out of jeolousey.(i know i spelled it wrong) Cause remember Ani was supposed to be all powerful and Obi Wan might be mad at Ani for Ani having the power and not him(in Ani's mind anyway)So Ani would hate Obi Wan. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif :scratchchin: WHat do you think?

[Senator Theant]

Anakin is the most sympathetic character


I have no sympathy for a butcher.

For every man his unique opinion . . .

Although I try and base my arguments on straight objectiveness . . . my personal opinions remain untouched. Perhaps I am playin on a more religous tone than ever, but, as I have said, the story of Star Wars is the story of redemption. Incidentally, the story of humanity is also the story of redemption.

Thats my opinion.

[Senator Theant]

Also how do we know that Ani is bad when he gets the physical(and mental) damage. He could be fighting in the Clone Wars or somethin and there is a big bomb thingy [???] um or somethin that starts to tear appart the planet, and him and Obi Wan are close to it and the tremors split the surface appart, Obi Wan bumps into Ani and Ani falls into the crack and "dies"(or so we think)Ani ,beleiving Obi Wan purposly pushed him in out of jeolousey.(i know i spelled it wrong) Cause remember Ani was supposed to be all powerful and Obi Wan might be mad at Ani for Ani having the power and not him(in Ani's mind anyway)So Ani would hate Obi Wan. [style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif] [style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif] WHat do you think?

Although the specifics of the event are controversial, the duel between Anakin and OBi Wan did indeed take place. The duel also indeed paralyzed Anakin for the rest of his life. I have heard LUcas state this fact, but more specifically, I have read this in the novelization of ANH. So, I dont think LUcas would trouble himself by implementing a twist into the mix to ctach us off guard. But good thinkin, TOCAB, its always good to ask questions.

[maddog62]

I wish ~I were like you. Easily amuzed. Sorry wrong song.

[Angel_Blue]

Originally posted by Senator Theant@Aug. 02 2002 - 21:12
A nuclear reactor chute? Are you serious? All the Star Wars technology out there . . . lightsaber crystals, anti-grav devices om EVERYTHING, and theyre still using nuclear technology? I dont know if im the only one but doesnt that seem a bit odd?

If its true, then it means that the epic duel between Vader and OBi Wan will be fought in some ancient abandoned factory or the like . . .
Thats just what the book said, it probably meant a reactor chute like the one Vader chucked Palpy down.

[Senator Theant]

A nuclear reactor chute? Really? Oh ok. Im not one to argue over pointless facts, but thats certainly interesting. Yea, I guess it would be hard for Lucas the create a whole other realm of science to explain for the many Star Wars phenomenon. Sticking to what we know is always the easiest way of going about things.

I dunno . . . I was just being curious. Nothink big, like I said :blush:

[Justin]

I have a feeling that Anakin will have become Darth Vader (although without the big bad black armor) by the time he takes a bath in the molten tub.

He says to Luke in ROTJ "Obi-Wan once thought as you do," leading me to believe that Obi-Wan will try to bring him back from the Dark Side before he shoves him into whatever it is that burns him.

[JediBendu]

Kinda like throwing cold water on someone to wake them up :p

[Angel_Blue]

Maybe its not lava or a reactor chute.Maybe its a turbine and he gets sucked into it and the fan blades wack him in half but before the rest of him gets choped up, he grabs onto some machinery, but,like i said his like waist down gets smacked off.
YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[Senator Theant]

Hahaha yea kinda like in "Idle Hands" or whatever that movies called with Devon Sawa (sp? I dunno). Where Jessica Alba and her friend try to escape from the ventilation shaft but there's this gient turbine for circulating the air. JEssica gets through (oh yeaaaa) but her friend gets chopped. All you get to see is blood splatter all over the place. Thats the picture I get if Anakin'd get sliced.

[Justin]

I don't think there's going to be any splashes of blood in a Star Wars movie.

[Senator Theant]

Without a doubt . . .
were not goin to see guts in an SW film, but the idea is provoking. So, in other words, no turbine in SW, but interesting idea.

[Justin]

I wouldn't really want to see that.

The lava thing would be cool (albeit unrealistic) because a volcano with lava evereywhere would be a cool setting for the biggest baddest lightsaber duel of the saga, which is what Ewan McGregor said he and George Lucas said it would be.

[Senator Theant]

Oh yea . .
Ive heard Mcallum say that they were going to work on that scene alone for many months. Ewan and Hayden were going to have to submit theselves to many hours of physical training. I too think that an intensive battle on the surface of the sun would be cool to watch. But I dont think Anakin will fall into a pool of molten rock. The fiery planet could house several war factories of the TF or Commercial Guild. Once set ablazed by invading Republic war ships, the stage wouf be set for Anakin to suffer his fate at the hands of an electrical failure or something. But I dont think lava will be the culprit.

[darthwicker]

Here is a passage from the AOTC novel when Obi-Wan is trying to locate Kamino. Before he goes to seek advice from Yoda he goes to a room to meditate.

' Before Obi-Wan, a painting of reds, shifting and darkening to a deep crimson and then to black, a liberal representation of a cooling lava field, hung on the wall, inviting him not to look into it, but to surround himself with it, both its image and the soft warmth and hissing sound helping him to fall far away from his corporeal surroundings.
There, in his trance, Obi-Wan Kenobi sought his answers. '

Does anyone else think this might be a clue to do with the lava duel?
Does the painting represent a real place?
Or is it somewhere only the mind can take you.

[Angel_Blue]

Originally posted by Justin@Aug 10 2002, 02:35 AM
I don't think there's going to be any splashes of blood in a Star Wars movie.
Well you know Justin in EP I when Darth Maul gets lopped(i love that word)in half there is a small mist of blood that spurts(another word i love)up.