Who was Sifo-Dyas?

[Seminole Jedi]

Sorry if this has been discussed before; I'm new here.

We learn that Dias was on the Jedi Council (JC) 10 years before AOTC, or during TPM time frame. *Apparently, he visited Kamina and requested the clone army be built for the Republic. *Then he "dies." *At the same time Obi-Won tells Qui-Gon he senses "something elsewhere, elusive" in the Force.

I think Dias decided one day he wanted to gain total control of the Republic and to use the dark side to do it. *Clearly, as a member of the JC he could not possibly have dabbled in the dark side without alerting his fellow Jedi. *Thus, he would need to leave the order and he would do it by faking his death. *But before leaving he would erase Kamina from the records in the Jedi library (recall Yoda saying only a jedi could pull that off), and then visit the cloners and order the army. *Indeed, he would also order a clone of himself. *We learn that the cloners can make any number of modifications to the original (degree of independence, appearance, strength, etc.). *He orders his clone's physical appearance to be identical, not to himself, but to a prominent Naboo politician, Senator Palpatine. *Make him extra pliant to his orders, and presto, Dias has a puppet in the Senate once he bumps off the real Palpatine. *Indeed, as Dooku reveals to Obi-Won, Dias may have gained control of hundreds of Senators in much the same way. *(Notice that Palpatine and Sidious do not look or sound exactly alike in the films.)

Of course, the cloners don't work for free. *How does Dias pay for this army? *He cuts a deal with the Trade Federation (TF). *In exchange for huge sums of cash, he promises to use his powers and influence in the Senate to allow the TF to take over an entire planet, Naboo. *If the TF succeeds in taking over Naboo, Dias, now Sidious, has a powerful ally with an entire planet as his base. *That the TF failed in its conquest was not of great concern to Sidious because he already had his money and his clones in production. *Recall that the TF guys lamented during TPM that they "should not have made this bargain" with Sidious. All Sidious needed to do after TPM is wait his clone army to ripen into a fighting force, which they do by the time of AOTC.

Some of my details could be wrong, of course, but I think the big picture -- that Dias left the JC and became Sidious -- is probably correct.

[RollaFett]

No disrespect Seminole Jedi, but I wonder how soon until this thread is locked? You should really look over all of the other existing threads before opening a new one to avoid repetition.

[RollaFett]

Then again, this is non-spoilers, so maybe not.

[Tovor]

Seminole Jedi, welcome to the Senate. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif
This topic is already in lengthy progress with several fascinating contributing viewpoints. *It is a great subject to discuss and debate, but if there is more than one thread about it, the posters who stick with the one don't get the benefits of the other, not to mention that it gives the forum a messy appearance with topics repeated and scattered all about. **Please take a look at this one:

http://www.galacticsenate.com/ikonboa....49;st=0 (http://www.galacticsenate.com/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=849;st=0) *

Thanks!
Tovor * * * * *:pacattack:

[Darth Darthy]

But he does have a valid point - who is Cypher Dias? Is he a long lost relation to Syfo-Dias? And if so how distant a relative is he? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

I'll do the honours:

THIS THREAD IS LOCKED. PROBABLY. VERY SOON.

[QuigonWindu]

Cypher Dias Cypher Dias tsk, tsk, tsk

[Brian]

Wow, the mods must not have seen this thread yet.

[Meche]

The mods did see the thread. It can stay, because it's in the non-spoilers section. If people don't want to be spoiled for Episode III but want to still discuss, this is where they do it. If they don't mind spoilers, they can discuss Sifo-Dyas in the Spoilers section.

But this did need re-naming.

[Tovor]

What a minute, Meche, this is a puzzle for us to solve, it must be. *The original poster called the character "Cypher Dias". *How would the mysterious Jedi's name be listed on his apartment mailbox? *"D. Cypher", right? *So apparently, the typo in the thread title was deliberate, an indication that we have to decipher the meaning of this mysterious mystery and solve this puzzling puzzle to lessen our perplexing perplexement. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif However, I have worn myself out with my play on words so this questionable question would best be answered by the answerable younger minds already present. *Take it away boys and girls, as I rest my brain from already doing way too much thinking, and go to sleep at last at such a late hour of lateness. *G'night ya all. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scatter.gif

[Vyndim]

Tovor, you have one of, if not the most active imagination on the forums. I envy you and your witty humor. :p

Anyway, all the input I have on the topic of the thread has been stated on other threads, no need to be redundant.

[Palpatine]

When will the madness stop? There is no clone of Palpatine. He is Darth Sidious. In TPM, when Mace asks which one was killed, they pan over to Palpatine. It IS a major shock to find out that he is an evil Sith Lord if you're watching it 1-6 or you dont know the Emperors name. Rick McCallum has said on numerous occasions that they ARE THE SAME PERSON. What is going on here?

[Mann]

Palpatine you are "young and naive" the panning of a camera measn nothing but to try and see if the audience will fall for the deception. Lucas has a clever mind, he may be trying to trick us all. Keep an open mind.

[Darth Darthy]

Palpy ain't Sidious? Mesa think you people reading to much into it.

[Tovor]

Palpatine you are "young and naive" the panning of a camera measn nothing but to try and see if the audience will fall for the deception. Lucas has a clever mind, he may be trying to trick us all. Keep an open mind.


Darth Sideous to the Viceroy:
"Mann is young and naive. *You will find that fooling him will not be difficult." *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/satisfied.gif

Mann, many many fans are convinced that Lucas is going to pull "I am your father" surprise in the prequels like the one in TESB. *But you already know too much and thus cannot be surprised...however, the majority of casual film-goers have no clue that the emperor in ROTJ was named Palpatine. *To most people, Palpatine is the good guy and Sideous is the villian, as well as the future emperor seen in ROTJ. *It is them whom Lucas will give the big surprise to when he pulls back the hood in Episode III and reveals his true identity. *You (and many other fans) are rooted in the expectation that since Lucas already knows that you know about Palpatine, that he will pull off some other "clone of, twin brother of, third cousin's janitor of" surprise in the next film to take the hard core fans by surprise. *But my friend, the proof is in the pudding, or rather in the many hints given in TPM, that Palpatine is none other than Sideous, and vice-versa. *I think we're in the wrong thread to discuss that aspect of the story, but I will give you this:
Remember the long shot of Amidala standing at Palpatine's window with Jar Jar next to her (just before Panaka came in and told her that Palpatine had been nominated)? *The scene then cut to a medium close-up of Amidala still gazing out the window. *But why did Lucas first show us the long shot where you could see the balcony and concrete railing outside the window, rather than just going right to the medium close-up? *Simple, he wanted us to see the balcony. *Go back to earlier in the movie when Sideous and Maul were on Sideous' balcony talking about Tatooine and the Jedi. *Did you make the connection the second time you saw the same balcony from the window of Palpatine's apartment?

There are several other clues, but despite your doubt, the pan and stop that the poster Palpatine mentioned is a drop dead giveaway that Palpatine is the other, the Master who got away.

[Mann]

Tovor,

I have to reiderate what someone once said that if you can't see that the same person plays Sidious and Palpatine than you must not be paying very close attention. You sound like your degrading the average moviegoer. They aren't dumb, and alot of them hve figured out that Palpatine is the emperor's name.

Oh, and was the Emperor's name Palpatine in RotJ? in the credits it's just the Emperor. I'm not sure that maybe the EU made the name up so as to give him a background. Lucas used the name not to confuse anyone, as in the concept of Coruscant. i think that Sidious is the head hancho, why would He have Dooku meet him in the outskirt and he has no guards around him? Kinda fishy.

[Darth Darthy]

why would He have Dooku meet him in the outskirt and he has no guards around him?

He's a Sith. Why would he need guards?

[Mann]

When you are a chancellor, you have guards 24/7. And the Emperor has guards too.

[Palpatine]

I dare you to give one piece of proof that says that Sidious is NOT Palpatine. Everything points to his being a sith. Explain this to me: what does the panning over to Palpatine after the Yoda-Mace conversation mean, if not that he is in fact the master?

And we can discuss this all we want. The simple fact is that McCallum has said that they are one and the same, and he is the number two man to Lucas. I'm sure he knows what hes talking about.

[Senator Theant]

I dont think we caught a good shot of Palpatine's hideotu to understand its defenses. I would think that approahing ships would need to be identified before entering the area, but thats not my point here.

I think the most obvious difference between the Dark Lord in the Prequels and the same guy in the Originals is their degree of concealment. Besides, the word "insidious" means to be covert and discreet, which is how we are suppose to know the Sith Lord in the PT. We do not see the full face of the Lord in the PT, because adequate light forbids it. The OT is much different, although still cloaked heavily. Similarly, the comings and goings of Sidious in the PT must be secret, if no one in the Senate or otherwise is to recognize him in the street. As such, travelling lightly (with no guards of any kind) has its advantages. In the OT, Sidious doesnt give a crap about discreetness, his secret identity has been compromised and everybody knows who he is.

Besides . . . like what Darth Darthy said, hes a Sith. No need for guards when you can cloud the minds of Jedis and escape identification.

[Mann]

Then Why would he have guards to begin with? In RotJ he has the red guards, and he's a sith!

[Tovor]

You sound like your degrading the average moviegoer. They aren't dumb, and alot of them hve figured out that Palpatine is the emperor's name.


Degrading the average movie goer? *Not so. *I just don't think the average movie goer looks as deeply as fans do into the backstory of the saga. *Other than reading it in an article prior to the prequel's release, some haven't made the connection via the clues *But why are you accusing me of degrading the average movie goer because I think most haven't realized that Sideous is Palpatine? *To tell the truth, I'm not even sure which side of the fence you're on. *In your Aug. 6 2002, 15:30 reply to Palpatine, you appeard to be on the side which is certain Palpy and Sideous are differant men, but then you state how obvious it they are the same. *Are you playing Devil's advocate?

Oh, and was the Emperor's name Palpatine in RotJ? in the credits it's just the Emperor. I'm not sure that maybe the EU made the name up so as to give him a background.
Palpatine was the name used in the ROTJ movie novel I'm sure. *As early as 1976 in the original Star Wars: The Adventures of Luke SKywalker novel based on the movie, the intro stated that "Aided and abetted by ruthtless, power hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected president of the Republic", and then went on to say that he used treachery and deception to eliminate the Jedi knights and secure his power as emperor. *So it wasn't EU which invented the name "Palpatine" like Zahn invented Coruscant, but the original story by Lucas (although the ANH novel was ghost written by Alan Dean Foster and credited to Lucas.).

i think that Sidious is the head hancho, why would He have Dooku meet him in the outskirt and he has no guards around him? Kinda fishy.
Aside from what others stated about a Sith not needing guards, I ask, why would Palpatine who wants to hide his Sith identity from the Jedi and the Republic, bring his guards along when he slips into his secret identity? *His guards are assigned to protect the Chancellor from any bad guys or crazed nutjobs, but despite their duty could they be trusted not to inform the senate or the Jedi that the man they are lead by is the villian in disguise? *You could say that he could use mind tricks on them to keep his secret, but I think he wants to ensure that there were no witnesses to his secret dealings at all.

[Tovor]

Vindym:
Tovor, you have one of, if not the most active imagination on the forums. *I envy you and your witty humor. *
Thanks man, but an imagination like mine is like a curse. *I've got so much in my head and I can't get it all out fast enough. * style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif *But thanks for the compliment. *Its flattering.

[Senator Theant]

Then Why would he have guards to begin with? In RotJ he has the red guards, and he's a sith!

There are more purposes behind a secret guard then just defense, but I speak the the obvious. Intimidation certainly seems to pop up in my mind. His new guard probably serve as a Gestapo-like police force. Who knows, in ROTJ, Palpatine seems pretty old and decrepit. IF the stories I have read are true, he was most certainly fearing his death at that time, creating clones of himself to pass on the legacy. But I dont back that up completely. Perhaps, after a life in discreetness, he reaally feels like putting his guard down and enjoy his reign as Emperor.

[Mann]

You degrad the averag moviegoer by saying that they don't read that much into the saga as fans. Why do you need to read so much into it if YOU yourself stated that they are clearly the same person? If it is that obvious, then they should be able to see it with their own eyes. The Devil's Advocate? what are you saying? I mean that they are the same actor! They could very well look the same, but I believe that they are in fact two different characters. The introduction of Clones by Lucas has to mean something else.

Example: When Sidious is talking to the Trade Federation, he's in his Sith garment, but two minutes later Palpatine is all dressed up talking to Amidala. A quick change? Kinda hard to do don't you think?

[Senator Theant]

Mann, I dont think Tovor is degraded the average movie goer at all. I dont expect moviegoers of this generation to know many names of SW charaters outside of the popular few: Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, C-3PO, R2-D2. Besides, George's target audience is the younger movie goer who shares little to no OT knolwledge.

You make a good point in that Palpatine must have learned the ways of a cross dresser in TPM. But thats the art of movie storyline time elapses. Who knows how much time may have passed before Palpatine sent a message to Naboo. THe hints to prove that Sidious is Palpatine are too recurring. I think the most obvious:

"And we will be most interested in your career, young Skywalker."

If Palpatine and Sidious are not the same, then this line will prove quite insignificant, leading me to question why didnt Lucas just edit the line.

The shot panning out to Palpatine after Mace finshed questioning whether the dead Sith Lord was a master or an apprentice is also an example.

[Mann]

Maybe the hints are meant to lead you in that direction. We all know that soemthing is up with Palpatine, but it isn't fully revealed. I think that Sidious is controlling Palpatine, but ehy are two spearate people.

I'm sure the average moviegoer knows who Boba Fett was even though they didn't sy his name in the Empire Strikes Back. You could barely hear it in Return of the JEdi. They just wait for the credits and see whowas who. you can't say it isn't obvious if they print the names at the end.

[Palpatine]

This bickering is pointless. If McCallum has said that they are one and the same, shouldn't we have enough confidence in his knowledge to believe him?

[Mann]

McCallum doesn't write the movies. What di dhe say about Episode II, that it was going to be shorter than two hours? He doesn't know much. Wait until later till when he talks when Lucas finishes the script.

[RedMirax]

I agree the "average" person going to see SW doesn't realize Palpatine and Sidious are the same. My friend went to see it with me (she is NOT a "fan" ), and she had to ask me just to make sure.


I think they are the same.

[Palpatine]

It's pretty difficult to determine the length of a movie before there is a finalized script. On a major plot point, like whether Sidious is Palpatine, I trust his knowledge. You should too.

[Justin]

I think Sifo-Dyas was really Yoda, because he was able to get them all together so quickly in the end! And think about it, Sifo-Dyas has O D Y, and A in it. See?? Makes perfect sense.

[yoda's little clone]

Cypher Dias in my mind was a Jedi used for the creation of the Clone Army by Siddious. Although it could be true that Siddious was once a Jedi and could have been Dias since it seems to be very common but i think Dias was a noteable Jedi who's name was used. Jango said he was recruited by a man named Tyrannus who is Dooku. So basically Dooku used Dias's name for Siddious or Palpatine so that Siddious could own an army at the same time look innocent to the JC and could get control of the Senate.

[Senator Theant]

AOTC novel reads:

Pg. 211, 3rd-4th paragraph:

"Who was the original?" [Obi Wan asks]

"A bounty hunter named Jango Fett," Lama Su offered without hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Syfo-Dyas handpicked Jango himself."

Pg. 217, 7th-11th paragraph:

"Master who?" Jango asked.
"Syfo-Dyas. Isnt he the one who hired you for this job?"
"Never heard of him," Jango replied, and if there was a lie in his words, Obi Wawn could not detect it.
"Really?"
"I was recruited by a man called Tyrannus on one of the moons of Bogden," Jango explained, and again it seemed to Obi Wan as if he was speaking the truth.



So, you see, the novel is trying hard to unravel this mystery, what you derive from it is up to you. IT seems that Tyrannus and SyfoDyas are the same. WE know Dooku's Sith identity to be Darth Tyrannus, which leaves yet another question. Why does it seem Lama Su and Jango are speaking freely, when the real Syfo-Dyas wouldnt want his identity revealed? Are they skilled liars (of course one of them is)? Or innocent pawns?

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by Senator Theant@Aug 26 2002, 05:54 PM
Are they skilled liars (of course one of them is)? Or innocent pawns?
Tune in, in 2005, when we will finally reveal... "Who is the Mole?"

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[DblDwn]

The AOTC novel doesn't mean anything. If anything is to be taken from that passage then it should simply be that Sifo-Dyas (Sidious) picked Jango and then had Tyrannus (Dooku) hire him for the job.

Isn't it clear by now that EVERYONE is an innocent pawn to Sidious? Whether they know it or not the only person he has faith in is himself. After all Vader was his star pupil and he does all he can do to get Luke to kill Vader in ROTJ. He is always looking to 'trade in' his older apprentice for a younger one much like he'll probably do with Tyrannus and Anakin in Episode III.

Most people know where I stand on this topic. I am a very strong believer that Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and that Palpatine is not. I never bought into the theory that Palpatine could be a clone of Sifo-Dyas. The original thread in this post, however, explained a possible solution that could be made to work if handled properly.

Darn it, I had a valid point on this subject the other day and now I can't remember it. I'll write something else for now though. Whoever it was that wanted an example of proof that Sidious and Palpatine are separate people here you go:

As I've listed before in another thread, at the end of AOTC we are made to believe that each of the four separate scenes are occuring simultaneously if for no other reason than that it is sunset on Coruscant in each of the three scenes there. We see Tyrannus/Dooku meeting with Sidious, we see the Clonetroopers along with what are basically prototype star destroyers while Palpatine, Organa, etc look on, we see Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda discussing shrouds falling and wars beginning, and the film concludes with Anakin and Padme being married on Naboo. My question is this now, if Palpatine is Sidious, and all of these events were transpiring at the same time, then how could Palpatine be both meeting with Tyannus/Dooku and standing next to Organa and company, watching over the clones, at the same time?

Just a little something to think about.

By the way..........nice Pulp Fiction quote Michael Mann.

[freedom01851]

Okay,

Originally I believed that Yoda and Mace were the ones pretending to be Sifo-Dyas to order the clones. But, I just watched the scene again where Obi-Wan calls Yoda and Mace while they are in the meditation room. The more I watch the scene, the less I believe either is involved.

Again, the easiest answer is usually the correct answer. If one man has planned from the beginning to overthrow the entire galaxy with plans that would take years to happen, then why couldn't this have also been his doing.

We have seen Palpatine through Episode 1 and 2 use people and situations around him to get what he wants - power. Fett, who was the source for the clones, says he was hired by Tyrannus. The Kaminoans say Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones. To make things easy in my mind, i'm going to connect these two dots and say Tyrannus (Dooku Sith name) posed as Sifo-Dyas. I can honestly believe that he had Dooku, before he left the Jedi order, posed as Sifo-Dyas to order the clones. Also, Dooku could have erased the information from the Jedi library before he split.

I like easy, easy is good, doesn't hurt the brain. Fire bad, easy good.

[Mann]

I am with Dbldwn on this one. I think Lucas is tricking us. Not only is everyone decieved by Sidious, but we Star Wars fans are decieved by George Lucas, the true Master of the force.

oh, and I love Pulp Fiction btw.

[Clara]

Sifo-Dyas is Count Dooku. I know this for a fact. Now I've just got to remember where the heck I read it. I think it was my fact files but I'll have to check.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by clara@Sep 4 2002, 03:29 AM
Sifo-Dyas is Count Dooku. I know this for a fact. Now I've just got to remember where the heck I read it. I think it was my fact files but I'll have to check.
The AOTC script say's different.


In a deleted scene, Lama Su clearly said that Sifo Dyas had been to Kamino as well as Darth Tyrannus.


Besides that, both Sifo Dyas and Dooku were Jedi at the same time. Which leads me to the conclusion that Sifo Dyas is indeed Sidious/Palpatine. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Here is easy for you: Both Sidious (Sifo Dyas) and Tyrannus (Dooku) were in the Jedi order at the same time, and left at the same time, but Maul was a "secret". style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Mann]

I think they would have mentioned that two Jedi had left at the same time, being that they said that Dooku was the most recent to leave of the Lost 20.

[DblDwn]

They don't believe two Jedi to have left at the same time though. They know that Dooku left and that is why he is the most recent addition to the Lost 20, but they presume that Sifo-Dyas died, that is why they don't suspect him at all, and therefore he would not be considered a member of the Lost 20 because if every Jedi that had died was on that list it wouldn't be the Lost 20..........it would be the Lost 20,000 (I don't know how many Jedi are supposed to have died throughout time I just picked a number).

[RollaFett]

DblDwn posted-
As I've listed before in another thread, at the end of AOTC we are made to believe that each of the four separate scenes are occuring simultaneously if for no other reason than that it is sunset on Coruscant in each of the three scenes there.

Hmmm....that is quite a conclusion to come to, don't you think? I never thought that all of those scenes were occuring at the same time.

[Darth Opinionated]

Originally posted by Mann@Sep 4 2002, 10:38 PM
I think they would have mentioned that two Jedi had left at the same time, being that they said that Dooku was the most recent to leave of the Lost 20.
Well no because they think Sifo Dyas is dead, when obviously he is not.

[Darth Opinionated]

Yeah I agree with you Mr. Bond.

Tyrannus=Dooku

Vader=Skywalker

Sidious/Palpatine=Sifo Dyas

and Maul= well uhh Maul, I don't think he was ever a Jedi.


The novelelization by the way, does not try to tie up this whole mystery by making us think that Dooku posed as Sifo Dyas, but it includes the deleted scenes from the film that pretty much say "Sifo Dyas is Sidious". style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Mann]

who hear believes that we wont even hear about Sifo-Dyas in the next movie?

[Ulic]

Sidous=Palpatine.

Sidious does not=Dias.

Dias was a Jedi. Palps was never a Jedi.

Palps could have ordered the clones claiming to be Dias, but Palps and Dias are two different people.

Sidious/Palpatine was never a Jedi. The Jedi Council would have known, wouldn't they?

[Mann]

In the original AotC script, Sifo Dyas is said to never have existed.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Mann@Sep 6 2002, 11:50 PM
In the original AotC script, Sifo Dyas is said to never have existed.
So what do we all take that to mean?

On one side you could say that Lucas and Hales decided to make up a random name of some long dead Jedi that is used merely as a smokescreen as to who is actually ordering the clones..................

Or you could say that Lucas decided that maybe he would change things up a bit and make it a little bit more of a surprise come Episode III.

Just a side note to whomever it was that mentioned how Sidious or Dooku used Sifo-Dyas' name while ordering the clones would in turn cast the blame of the Clone Wars on the Jedi, if Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and instead of using the name Sidious and in turn using his former name of Sifo-Dyas while ordering the clones, wouldn't that achieve the exact same goal of placing the blame on the Jedi?

That way the Jedi are still blamed and it works with the idea of Sifo-Dyas being Sidious.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Ulic@Sep 6 2002, 12:33 AM
Sidous=Palpatine.

Sidious does not=Dias.

Dias was a Jedi. Palps was never a Jedi.

Palps could have ordered the clones claiming to be Dias, but Palps and Dias are two different people.

Sidious/Palpatine was never a Jedi. The Jedi Council would have known, wouldn't they?
You have no proof. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif I think Palps' uses decoys, "The Dark Side clouds everything."

In the original AoTc script Sifo Dyas was said to never have exsisted.

Must have been a very early draft because I have a copy of the shooting script, the final revision of it as a matter of fact, and it says nothing of that, only the things I posted up there. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Mann]

Attack of the clones the title will have more meaning after Episode III, when we learn Palpatine made clones of himself to become a Sith lord behind the scenes.

[catwmnjedi]

I don't think Palpy clones himself, at least not in multiple versions. He's very careful to make sure the Sith order only has two members. Remember why that is? More than 2 Sith at a time = infighting and destroying each other, which is what happened to the original Sith order. That's why there's the new 2-Sith rule.

Palpy is clearly grooming Anakin to be his ultimate apprentice, which means he plans on Dooku being replaced.

From the movie, I would say Sifo-Dyas existed once, but died ten years ago. We may not hear from him again... I believe, like many of you, that someone else just used his name. The question is who. Was it really Sidious? Was it really Dooku? Or someone else?

A clue could be in the timeframe of the order being placed "ten years ago" from AOTC - that would be TPM timeframe, probably after Anakin is discovered/uncovered. Obi-Wan mentions that he thought Sifo-Dyas actually died BEFORE the order was placed. Sidious couldn't have been him, but he could've used his name.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by catwmnjedi@Sep 10 2002, 10:40 PM
A clue could be in the timeframe of the order being placed "ten years ago" from AOTC - that would be TPM timeframe, probably after Anakin is discovered/uncovered. Obi-Wan mentions that he thought Sifo-Dyas actually died BEFORE the order was placed. Sidious couldn't have been him, but he could've used his name.
Notice you say probably after Anakin is introduced. Quite simply you don't know for sure. Granted I don't either but still............

I would say that Sifo-Dyas did 'die' before the order was placed. He disappeared, basically faking his death, and reappeared as Sidious at which point he ordered the clones.

I am inclined to believe that the order was placed before the discovery of Anakin.

Here's where it gets interesting though. If Sidious, whoever the hell he really is, ordered the clones and Dooku/Tyrannus hired Jango to be the source of the clones and all of this happened 10 years ago during the time of TPM....................in the theory of only two there are, where does Darth Maul fit into this?

I wonder how soon after Maul was killed did Sidious recruit Dooku to join him (something that would be easier to do if Sidious was Sifo-Dyas since he, like Dooku, was a Jedi and even a head of the Jedi Council)? It could be said that the clones were ordered after TPM takes place, but that still doesn't disprove my ideas of Sifo-Dyas being Sidious.

[Darth Arraics]

If the clone troopers where orderd 10 years ago, why are they not all ten years old. Was it told in the movie how the were able too age the clones.

[DblDwn]

Obi-Wan is told, as are we, about the age enhancement process in which all of the clones go through with the exception of Boba, who is the unaltered clone that Jango requested that he may raise as a son.

[Darth Arraics]

Thanks DblDwn.

[Mann]

Sidious is fooling everyone by making the Jedi think that only two Sith can exist. Sidious is powerful, so he exceeds even the Jedi expectations

[Darth Vegas]

I agree 100% Mann.

I believe that just before the events of TPM, Sifo Dyas (Sidious) was already on the way to turning Dooku, who I believe was his foprmer padawan apprentice, it had to be someone that was a rebel, someone who influenced Dooku in the ways of the Dark Side, you don't just suddenly turn to the Dark Side in less than a year, it takes years of manipulation, we can see that by watching Anakin.


In TPM Mace said, "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing." Then in AOTC Yoda said concerning arrogance, "Yes a flaw more and more commen among Jedi, even the older more experienced one's."

You see Mace was very arrogant to suggest that the Jedi would absolutely be ablw to sense the Sith if they had returned. It is my belief that Sidious, being a heading member of the Jedi coucil, had a very strong influence on the Jedi, especially Dooku, being his former apprentice (Yoda was not Dooku's master, but rather, he trained him as a youngling, it says so on the official site).

In order to turn such a powerful Jedi, one who studied more than just the old style of lightsaber combat, but strove to be the best
(much like Anakin), Sifo Dyas/Sidious had to have had a hand in his life, something deep and personnal. They both had to be behind the plot all along in order to make it work.



"Nothing happens by chance."

- Qui-Gon Jinn

[DblDwn]

Well well well Mr. Bond, after all of the arguments that the two of us had concerning this topic it is definately nice to see that you are opening up to new possibilities.

Many kudos my friend.

[Darth Vegas]

Actually I've thought this since I first read the AOTC novel.

But I still think Sifo Dyas Sidious and Palpatine are all the same person. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

[Wild_Huntress]

Aww man... Guys some of these theories are brilliant but I'm not up to the Sifo Dyas COnspiract Theory right now....

[Blizzard]

bump

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Sep 3 2002, 07:45 AM
As I've listed before in another thread, at the end of AOTC we are made to believe that each of the four separate scenes are occuring simultaneously if for no other reason than that it is sunset on Coruscant in each of the three scenes there. We see Tyrannus/Dooku meeting with Sidious, we see the Clonetroopers along with what are basically prototype star destroyers while Palpatine, Organa, etc look on, we see Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda discussing shrouds falling and wars beginning, and the film concludes with Anakin and Padme being married on Naboo. My question is this now, if Palpatine is Sidious, and all of these events were transpiring at the same time, then how could Palpatine be both meeting with Tyannus/Dooku and standing next to Organa and company, watching over the clones, at the same time?


You have brought in a valid argument Dbldwn. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

The question is, are those scenes really taking place at the same time, or is there just a slight time differential between them?

If they are all at the same time, then I will have to side with the Sifo Dyas/Sidious/Palpatine clone theory.

But if the latter, they are all the exact same person. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Sith1977]

There are some thoughts that crossed my mind reading this thread: why would Vader follow the orders of the Emperor if the Emperor is not the Dark lord of the Sith, Darth Sidious? If the Emperor is called Palpatine in the RotJ-novelization, why should they be different persons in the PT?
Some thoughts about Dooku/Clones/ten-year-ago-thing: I read somewhere that Dooku was discontent with the actions of the Jedi council shortly after TPM. Remember, Maul killed his former padawan learner, Qui-Gon Jin. One of Dooku´s special talents is said to be his ability to see the future. He foresaw the rise of the Sith, so he joined Sidious. But that clearly was after the things that happened during TPM. And remember one thing: although Sidious gets out of TPM as the secret winner, not everything went on as planned. I can´t think of Sidious planning to loose Maul. He turned this into a victory, but he did not plan it that way. Imagine an alternative ending: the TF takes over Naboo, Amidala signs the treaty, the Jedi don´t interfere. The TF would gain control over an entire planet, Sidious would have a great deal of resources and an army of droids at his disposal. On the other hand, Palpatine could turn this into a threat to the Republic and force the creation of an army to defend it against the rising TF. That´s why Paplpatine/Sidious is a mastermind and the Dark Lord of the Sith. He turns a defeat into a victory.
Sifo-Dyas/Sidious: how could Sidious pull this off, beeing a member of the Jedi council, the Dark Lord of the Sith and a Senator of a planetary system (Palpatine)? That would mean he would have to take on two fulltime-jobs and one secret career. Actually I dont´t think that he could make it.

[Darth Vegas]

He does not have to be a Sith full time as we have already seen, most of the time he's safe in his identity as Palpatine, and Senators are not busy 100% of the time, there is plenty of time to do both things.

I'm sure the Jedi are not all that busy either, all the Jedi Council does is sit back in their temple most of the time and send out other's to do their work, the council seems to be somewhat lazy.

Good point about how Sidious/Palpatine turns defeats into victories, nicely said Sith1977. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Sith1977]

Wouldn´t the Jedi code forbid to be a Senator? It would give that person a valuable advantage which he could use to the advantage of one system. That can´t get along with the Jedi code.
And I don´t think that the council members just sit and wait. Jedi masters will have to meditate a lot of time, and I think there´s happening a lot in the galaxy to be taken care of. Yoda for example spends some time training young soon-to-be-Jedi-knights. And Senators are politicians, they surely spend a lot of time meeting potential allies, other politicians or possible people who fund them. I don´t think Palpatine could manage three identities at the same time.

[Darth Vegas]

He doesn't have to be any of three identities 100 % of the time, especially not the Sith identity. :dunce:

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Sith1977@Oct 2 2002, 01:30 AM
There are some thoughts that crossed my mind reading this thread: why would Vader follow the orders of the Emperor if the Emperor is not the Dark lord of the Sith, Darth Sidious? If the Emperor is called Palpatine in the RotJ-novelization, why should they be different persons in the PT?

Once again, Lucas has changed many aspects of the story and there is nothing to suggest that he is done doing so.

[Obidobi]

I have studied AOTC for some time now, and I have some questions!
In the beginning, Palpatine asks Yoda: "Master Yoda do really think it will come to war?" Yoda replies: "The dark side clouds everything, impossible to see the future is"

Later in the movie Mace says: It is time to inform the senate that our abillities to use the force is diminished.
Yoda says, "Only the dark lord of the sith knows about our weakness".

My question is:
Does Yoda suspect Palpatine to be The dark sithlord, because he told him that he couldn´t see the future because of the dark side.
Then he says that the sith is the only one who knows, and Palpy knows because Yoda said it himselves.
Yoda also have a suspicious face when Palpy interupts Padme about more security!

Does Yoda know more than he says?

Thoughts!!!!??

[Darth Vegas]

I think he is suspicious, and I think when Obi-Wan brings up Sifo Dyas during his message that Yoda and Mace sorta make the connection that Sifo is Sidious, and he is posing as Palpatine (or Palpatine is a clone of him).

Yoda seems awfully suspicious of Palpsy, and him and Mace both seem to know more about Sifo Dyas than they let on, you notice they didn't say a word about him, that makes me think they know something all the more.

The first thing I did after seeing AOTC the second time, was try to unravel the mystery, with the use of the script and the novel, and this is the conclusion I came to.