I Miss 2D

[Miasmo]

I miss 'em. I really do. 3d games are great but 2d games were pushed aside despite further potential when 3d gaming erupted. It's obvious that we can still pump out some top-notch, super sweet, extra spicy nachos when you look at games like all the Castlevanias from the past 5 years, Super Smash Bros or Contra: Shattered Soldier.

The GBA is leading a small 2d revival thankfully. It's a tiny system but I'm glad I can find classic style games still being made.

I guess I'd like to hear some comments on what you liked most about the old 2d games. Moving levels? Vertical levels a la Kid Icarus? I'd also like hear about your favorite 2d games, old and new. Maybe you could comment on what you'd like to see in a new 2d game.

Lately I've been playing some old school shootemups like Contra and Heavy Barrel for NES. I've also recently played through all the old Mario's exluding Yoshi's Island. I really do miss Mario, but at least the GBA is quenching my thirst a bit. Super Smash Bros will always have a special place in my heart. I can't count how many N64 controllers we went through with that game. By the time we retired it, the controllers were crapola and we were still having a blast. It is the mystery of the smash.

Come back 2d! Come back!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cry.gif

[Miasmo]

I think this topic needs to be moved to the Entertainment section. Sorry bout that. ???

[bodhisattva yoda]

i agree that 2D games are great (especially ones like out of this world, flashback, and oddworld) but the problem with 2D games is there's very little replay value.

are you looking forward to viewtiful joe? i certainly am.

[bodhisattva yoda]

oh oh. you know what a great platformer is? sh*t. what's it called. it involves a tank...it's a neogeo game or something. you're a soldier and you rescue hostages and everything inappropriately cartoony...and sometimes you get to ride in a tank. i thought they were going to release it for gameboy advance but that hasn't happened. i'd certainly buy a gameboy sp (i lost my old gameboy advance) if it was actually released. what's that game called!?

[Greedo Boy]

My favorite games were Wolfenstein and Dark Forces. I'm not 100% sure that they were exactly 2-D, but they sure weren't as fancy as the games they're coming out with now. But fancy don't matter. They were still the best games ever.

[bodhisattva yoda]

nope. those were the beginning of the 3D generation of games. except for that a lot of the character models were in primitive 2D. yes. that must be what you're thinking of. those are still 3D games though. dark forces rules. ever play duke nukem 3D?

[Miasmo]

Originally posted by bodhisattva yoda@Sep 12 2003, 02:22 PM
i agree that 2D games are great (especially ones like out of this world, flashback, and oddworld) but the problem with 2D games is there's very little replay value.

are you looking forward to viewtiful joe? i certainly am.
Wha?? No replay value?? I'll have to disagree 100%. I can play 2d games until the cows come home.

I played the Viewtiful Joe demo about 3 months ago. It was... refreshing. They obviously see that 2d still has potential.

[Justin]

I heard that Nintendo was going to make a new side-scrolling Super Mario game for Gamecube.

[Marbleman]

whats this? where from? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif

i heard about the mario-luigi title for the GBA, but not a mario side-scroller for the cube.

[bodhisattva yoda]

both are exciting prospects.

some other great 2D games that come to mind are earthworm jim 1 & 2, aladdin (for genesis), and the original prince of persia.

did anyone play paper mario for N64? i missed it, regretably.

[Miasmo]

Ah, Earthworm Jim. He was a classic. Grooovy!

I miss single screen 2 player co-op.

[Marbleman]

aladdin (for genesis)
ah. . .
*marbleman goes into a state of nostalgia*
yes, that game was the bomb. interestingly enough, the super nintendo version was not the same game at all! i played both versions, and while they were both great fun that captured the spirit of the movie, the genesis version is supreme (although you didnt get to throw "stun" apples at guards) style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

did anyone play paper mario for N64? i missed it, regretably.
[/QUOTE]
very regrettable. one of my favorite games for the 64, and vastly underated. although it wasnt long enough.

[bodhisattva yoda]

what was the gameplay like? was it like a typical mario game? did it feel like a true continuation of the series?

and yeah. i specified the genesis version of aladdin because it was definitely superior. the main reason for this, i think, is that the characters were all hand-drawn cell animation. just like earthworm jim.

[Marbleman]

what was the gameplay like? was it like a typical mario game? did it feel like a true continuation of the series?
it was more like super mario rpg for the snes. what i loved about it was the battle elements. you could initiate battle with any goomba in the forest and then you would go into battle mode, where youd have a wide variety of ways to kill the creature. i thought that it continued the series pretty well, with mario's trademark cuteness mixed with violence. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[bodhisattva yoda]

i'm surprised nintendo doesn't release collections of old games. if they released an ultimate mario compilation, who wouldn't buy it?

[Miasmo]

I also agree that the genesis Aladdin was superior. I only owned a few genesis games but that was one of them.

I'll have to give Paper Mario a try now. I never got around to playing it.

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by Miasma@Sep 15 2003, 08:00 PM
I also agree that the genesis Aladdin was superior. I only owned a few genesis games but that was one of them.

I'll have to give Paper Mario a try now. I never got around to playing it.
its not a side-scroller per se, since you can move in eight directions. nevertheless, its one camera angle and a truly "flattening" experience. nintendo always knows when to take risks in creative ways. just look at wind waker. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Miasmo]

Yea, I've seen a number of pictures for Paper Mario. I even had a chance to play it at work awhile back, but, meh.

[bodhisattva yoda]

i love what they did with yoshi's island. that's another game that only got a chance to sample but never actually play thru. when will those damn GBAs go down in price?

[Trilogist]

Yeah, the 2-D games were great. I remember playing the Mario Bros. games, the Megaman games and even a freaky Star Trek game. There's tons of good ones out there.

What's funny is that PC games were primitive back then; the 2-D console games were actually superior. But there was going to be a great DOS 2-D series called Commander Keen ready to explode into the scene. Great games, well written, well designed. But the 3-D invasion came and ended the 2-D development forever.

[bodhisattva yoda]

what about sega cd games? these are technically 2D, right? i wish they'd still make games involving live-action film (ground zero texas and those trap games for which the titles escape me) and animation (dragon's lair and others)

[Miasmo]

Sega CD made baby Jesus cry.

Yoshi's Island was brilliant in my opinion. There is only one thing I didn't like about it.

"WAH! WAH! WAH! WAH! WAH!"

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by bodhisattva yoda@Sep 15 2003, 09:23 PM
i love what they did with yoshi's island. that's another game that only got a chance to sample but never actually play thru. when will those damn GBAs go down in price?
psst. game boy player. forty buck.
get a gamecube and hook it up.

[bodhisattva yoda]

yeah... but if i'm going to spend forty bucks, why not spend the amount for GBA and have portability priviledges? besides, the resolution is probably crap on a television.

sega CD ruled! i don't understand why everyone hates it. what was that trap game involving a hotel and a bunch of weirdo intruders?

[bodhisattva yoda]

this is the game! DOUBLE SWITCH!

http://www.defunctgames.com/pic/doubleswitchsegacd1.jpghttp://www.defunctgames.com/pic/doubleswitchsegacd2.jpghttp://www.defunctgames.com/pic/doubleswitchsegacd3.jpg

oh. i have fond memories of this game alright.

the other game i was refering to is called 'night trap'

also, sega cd was the only console to release the sequel to 'out of this world' which is one of the greatest side-scrollers ever made (albiet brief). but i never got to play thru the sequel.

[spaceman2386]

Originally posted by Miasma@Sep 12 2003, 04:52 AM
Come back 2d! Come back!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cry.gif
Buy a Game Boy? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif

[Miasmo]

I have a gameboy. I've already mentioned that there is a small revival going on.

I'm kinda disappointed that they aren't making a 2d Castlevania on one of the higher end consoles. Lament of Innocence is all fine and dandy, but they could make a 2d game that is drop dead gorgeous.

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by Miasma@Sep 16 2003, 01:35 AM
I have a gameboy. I've already mentioned that there is a small revival going on.

I'm kinda disappointed that they aren't making a 2d Castlevania on one of the higher end consoles. Lament of Innocence is all fine and dandy, but they could make a 2d game that is drop dead gorgeous.
oh i agree, and i would buy a 2-D castlevania for the cube in a heartbeat. well just have to settle for aria of sorrow and circle of the moon, which aint bad. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

viewtiful joe is getting hyped up; it is a 2-D side scroller that i hope capcom will deliver on.

[Miasmo]

Yep. From what I've played of V Joe, it seems like exactly the type of game I'd like to see more people attempt to make.

[bodhisattva yoda]

i probably would have bought an x-box if the latest oddworld game kept true to form like the original two sidescrollers. has anyone played oddworld? it's great.

it's also interesting that game companies seem to have the graphical capability to do amazing things with 2D platformers, and yet they remain centered on 3D, which, graphically, is lacking. they can't even make round 3D objects yet!

[Miasmo]

Oddworld is spectacular. I've always been drawn towards it. Although I am disappointed with the move to 3d, I'd like to play that version before I judge it.

it's also interesting that game companies seem to have the graphical capability to do amazing things with 2D platformers, and yet they remain centered on 3D, which, graphically, is lacking. they can't even make round 3D objects yet!
I agree. Just look at Guilty Gear X2. It's beautiful.

[bodhisattva yoda]

what's that for?

have you played out of this world or flashback or prince of persia? if you enjoyed oddworld, you'll certainly enjoy the games that inspired it. flashback especially.

does anyone still own any "obsolete" game consoles? i have a nintendo, super nintendo, genesis and atari, and i used to have an N64. i haven't played any of them recently though.

[bodhisattva yoda]

oh. guilty gear is for playstation 2.

it looks fantastic. unfortunately, i don't own a PS2.

i actually thought street fighter 3 was amazing. it didn't seem to get nearly as popular as its legendary predecessor though.

[Miasmo]

Originally posted by bodhisattva yoda@Sep 16 2003, 08:41 PM
have you played out of this world or flashback or prince of persia? if you enjoyed oddworld, you'll certainly enjoy the games that inspired it. flashback especially.

does anyone still own any "obsolete" game consoles? i have a nintendo, super nintendo, genesis and atari, and i used to have an N64. i haven't played any of them recently though.
I only grazed flashback and prince of persia. Maybe I'll really give them a go soon.

Emulators have replaced my old game systems.

[bodhisattva yoda]

i tried a super nintendo emulator, but it only used a fraction of the screen. are there any really good ones out there?

[Miasmo]

I'd look online for reviews. Mine has been giving me trouble lately.

[bodhisattva yoda]

if i find a good emulator, i'll probably have to purchase a control pad for my pc.

[Miasmo]

Lately I've had a hankering for overhead space shooters. Now those are a dying breed. R-Type Final hasn't come out yet has it?

If I had a Cube I'd definitely pick up Ikaruga. I've played it enough know it's wicked fresh yo. By the way, how do you pronounce Ikaruga? I've heard many different pronunciations.

[bodhisattva yoda]

no idea...

i own that game. it's pretty neat, but the graphics are slightly dated, and what kind of bothers me is that the attack patterns of the enemies is identical each time. i don't like when you have to master a game thru memory. i like randomness. that's what gives a game true replay value.

[Miasmo]

Sometimes. I will swear by Contra though. There is very little randomness in Contra games and I love them. And many space shooters also rely on fixed attack patterns.

[bodhisattva yoda]

these days though, there needs to be more effort put into replay value. games are expensive. i don't want to play thru a game once and have it rendered worthless. it has also become easier to beat games what with saves and all. PC games are the worst with those games that you can save any time. where's the challenge?

[Miasmo]

With a game like Contra, you memorize the enemy patterns. Your first time through is gonna be a bit rough. After you know where everything is it's easier, but it ain't no cakewalk. You still have to pay attention after that but you can get through the game without as much frustration, and feel like a badass while doing it. I think those games do have replay value.

If I can come home from a hard days work, put in Contra, pop some caps, blow crap up, and beat the game in a reasonably short amount of time, then it has tremendous replay value for me. I agree that certain games should really test you more, but games like Contra are convenient little games in my opinion.

[bodhisattva yoda]

but just imagine if the enemy attack paterns were randomized. wouldn't the game be much more fulfilling? when a game because too predictable, it becomes boring for me. good enemy AI is very important, in my opinion. this is something that old 2D games lack, but now they've got the technology. damnit. there's just so much 2D potential these days, and it's all squandered on cookie-cutter first person shooters and the like.

[Miasmo]

Good enemy AI is important. Predictable enemy AI is also important. There are so many games that can be made, why settle for one approach?

[bodhisattva yoda]

okay okay...but in my opinion, games with predictable AI are for renting. unpredictable AI games are for buying.

[Miasmo]

If you're paying at least 30 bucks for every video game you buy, then yes, I would agree with you... for the most part.

[bodhisattva yoda]

if nothing else, they should at least have alternate versions of the game to play thru... still with predictable patterns, but all new ones. and there should ALWAYS be various difficulty levels to choose from.

[Miasmo]

I agree about the difficulty levels.

[bodhisattva yoda]

but what about alternate enemy patterns? enemy placement isn't difficult to program, i'd imagine. this could even be an unlockable feature. you start with the main version of the game and when you beat it you unlock a new version. there could easily be five or ten versions. then there could be a 'random' feature that mixes these versions up so you really don't know what to expect. it wouldn't hurt the 'game proper' at all. it could only serve to enhance the game experience.

[mrnapier]

his could even be an unlockable feature. you start with the main version of the game and when you beat it you unlock a new version. there could easily be five or ten versions[QUOTE]

This is what they call: nintendo sales strategy style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[bodhisattva yoda]

yeah. i mean, this is what they did with the bonus zelda disc. it had two versions of ocarina. every game with set enemy patterns should expand on this idea.

[Marbleman]

Originally posted by bodhisattva yoda@Sep 17 2003, 01:29 PM
yeah. i mean, this is what they did with the bonus zelda disc. it had two versions of ocarina. every game with set enemy patterns should expand on this idea.
that reminds me, off subject real quick:
mario kart: double dash update. there is bonus disk for pre-order. speculation: it is possible that this bonus disk is an enhancement of mario kart 64, much like the re-release of ocarina of time with wind waker. . . who knows? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif

[Jedi D'oh]

My brother in law who lives 2 doors down came over with his SNES the other day. SO COOL! We have been playing the old Mario games, Zelda, FF3, and s ome other old classics. 2D was great in its own way. I still love what I have on GC and PS2, but it is fun to play the old stuff again. They may have gone down in challenge level, but the play is still fun!

[Miasmo]

Originally posted by bodhisattva yoda@Sep 17 2003, 12:51 PM
but what about alternate enemy patterns? enemy placement isn't difficult to program, i'd imagine. this could even be an unlockable feature. you start with the main version of the game and when you beat it you unlock a new version. there could easily be five or ten versions. then there could be a 'random' feature that mixes these versions up so you really don't know what to expect. it wouldn't hurt the 'game proper' at all. it could only serve to enhance the game experience.
Let me clarify. I'm not opposed to the different enemy attack patterns. I don't think it should ALWAYS be included though. I DO think that difficulty settings should always be included.

[Lobot]

mario kart: double dash update. there is bonus disk for pre-order. speculation: it is possible that this bonus disk is an enhancement of mario kart 64, much like the re-release of ocarina of time with wind waker. . . who knows? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif
I read it was just gonna be another Preview Disc like they handed out this summer (which was pretty nice actually, I still get mine out every once in a while for a little bit of Joe or Sonic). But would the N64 Mario Kart really be worth it? I mean, Ocarina had a point to it, it was a game with a seperate storyline and everything. With Mario Kart 64 you'd just be getting another near identical racing game (I say identical meaning the overall point of the game, you race). I think an awesome bonus disc offer Nintendo should do is offer the original Goldeneye with the upcoming 007 Everything or Nothing. That would rule...

But on to the other topic, I always thought older AI's in games were actually pretty hard. I got out my Genesis a few days ago and played some old games on it, they're so addicting. Most games today just don't keep me glued to the screen for that long. Most games...

[Marbleman]

original Goldeneye
or perfect dark! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/satisfied.gif

anyway its just a rumor i heard (speculation) about the mario kart 64 bonus disk, so its probably not true.

[Marbleman]

admit it.

who was disappointed (at first) when you found out that metroid prime was 3-D? i not bashing metroid prime, it is the best game for the cube so far. but i was still looking forward for the long awaited super metroid sequel to be presented in 2-D. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[Darth Darthy]

Er, buy a gameboy advance and play Metroid Fusion then.

[Justin]

I was disappointed that Super Mario Sunshine and the new Wario World were 3D and not side-scrolling. I mean, those aren't really the kind of games that you want to play 3D. That's for games like Splinter Cell and whatnot.

[Miasmo]

Originally posted by marbleman84@Sep 21 2003, 07:58 AM
admit it.

who was disappointed (at first) when you found out that metroid prime was 3-D? i not bashing metroid prime, it is the best game for the cube so far. but i was still looking forward for the long awaited super metroid sequel to be presented in 2-D. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif
I was hoping for 2d as well, but I still like the final product. At first I thought it was gonna be a standard fps with metroid slapped over it, but having played through almost all of the game I can say it feels like an original metroid game and I'm grateful.

[Marbleman]

i agree that metroid prime was great, and the sequel is #1 on my wish list for next year. still i miss the screw attack.

[Miasmo]

Originally posted by marbleman84@Sep 21 2003, 06:40 PM
still i miss the screw attack.
Everybody does. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[Jedi D'oh]

I liked Metroid Prime. Thought it was a great game. I was happy to see it in 3d because I like that style. The Mario stuff is much more fun in 3d, so is Zelda.

[Miasmo]

Although I'm a firm believer in 2D, I do think most series should have at least one 3D incarnation. That doesn't mean they should entirely abandon 2D.

[Miasmo]

Ya know what else I miss from 2D games? The music. Dont get me wrong, cd quality soundtracks are great but many of them lack the charm that games like mario and megaman had. I'm actually about to start making my own old school tunes. Prepare yourself, muahaha.

[Marbleman]

viewtiful joe postponed to the 15th! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif

in other news, capcom executives hate marbleman.