Who really designed the Death Star?

[DarthFlame]

ok... i'm new to this board, and for my first post i'd like to ask about the designer of the first Death Star.
In the book 'Darksabre', by Kevin J. Anderson, Bevel Lemelisk is revealed as the designer of both the first and second Death Stars. It says that Tarkin presented him and his design to the Emperor.
However :confused: , in Episode 2 Count Dooku (Tyranus) is given what looks like a design for the Death Star, which he says that he'll give it to his master (Sidious).

so who designed the first Death Star?

[Jo-Na Bast]

Of course it was the geonosians that designed the death star. The if the new films contradict the EU the EU has to give. There must be several such instances popping up now, I can think of at least one : The clone madness referred to in Timothy Zahns HTTE trilogy. There is no such thing, which is apparent since the stormtroopers were clones all along, and they weren't mad. So obviously one of the important presumptions of these novels is false and the HTTE books aren't entirely canon anymore. Can anyone think of other novels being contradicted by the new films?

[RedMirax]

We don't know that Stormtroopers were clones. Maybe their armour design is taken from the clones.... because, right now....they aren't "Stormtroopers"


Just a thought!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[DarthFlame]

i thought that the "clone madness" mentioned in the HTTE trillogy only occurred if you tried to grow the clones too quickly? - and Thrawn countered that by using the ysalamiri.

[Nathan Butler]

Jo-Na: The Thrawn books were never "Canon" on par with the films. They were simply "Official." A few steps down.

As for the contradictions, knowing LucasBooks, they'll find some way to explain it away. They've done so with most of the contradictions from TPM already. The two Sith Orders and the Greedo in TPM being "the elder Greedo" (ANH Greedo's father) to name but two.

So, yes, Official has to give way to 1st Level Canon . . . but that doesn't mean LFL won't come in with an Official decree or explanation that tidies it up and makes both workable. It's what they *do*.

[Whuffa]

If you just use your imagination a bit you can find thousands of ways to repair the damage - for example - this is the design in the first stages, and the Emperor gave it to Levelisk because he didn't want to admit that it was created under someone elses supervision. :tounge:

[jade51999]

Then there's Qwi Xux and the Maw installation..but you can totally say the same thing with that as we've been saying with others...

it was after genosians that the emperor gave it to others to "design" ......

possible right? but i agree..the movies are what is absolute and cannon so...fi these disagree..can't do anything..

~~~~
as for the clones in HTTE and stuff..the madness was by growing them too fast w/o ysalmiri..the ysalmiri was supposed to help that..
the clones in AOTC were grown over time..so they didnt' have that problem...(so one way to fix it)

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif..

[James]

It was Poggle the Lesser.

[Rogue_0009]

I think the Geonosians came up with the concept but lemilisk did the detail work such as small thermal exaust ports just below the main port

[SonGokou]

Like all EU characters Bevel Lemelisk is just that, he is not "true cannon", that is - he is not part of Master Lucas' original vision. So he can 'erase' Bevel if he wants to.

On a completely different note: He was a VERY intersting character with many flaws (he died after the rooster up at Yavin and was revived through clonning) and became a degenerate clone of his original self. Logic dictactes this is a flaw in Zahns research:- a clone is an EXACT replica of the original, there can be no deviant in genetics, it would be a mutant therefore Joruus C'Boath could never be. Genetically, much like Bevel, C'Boath would without question have a deffect, an extra limb, mental incapacity, shorter life span etc. An unstable mental illness, much like a physical one, would have been degenerative, he would have died long before the old age that is suggestive. Mutation breeds in branches 1=2, 2=4, 4=8 etc. :whatsthat:

[Whuffa]

It says in the New Essential Guide to Characters (which I bought a few days ago, finnaly! *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif ) That Lemelisk worked on the design with the Geonosians, but it was actually Seinar's idea, he developed the concept 30 years before ANH. So there! *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Luke_Skywalker]

I agree with Jo-na Bast and Rogue_0009. I think it was the geonosians, though, Sidious probably gave them the preliminary work. The Geonosians probably just made the blueprint for him, according to the details from Sidious of course.

[James T. Skywalker]

Yeah, if you've read Rogue Planet by Greg Bear (which, personally, I would only suggest for it's ties to the New Jedi Order), you'll know that Wilhuff Tarkin (future Grand Moff) takes the plans for an immense spherical battlestation from Raith Sienar (chief designer of Republic Sienar Sytems, which would later become Sienar Fleet Systems under the Empire). Tarkin presents them to his overseer, Darth Sidious, who then, obviously, gives them to his newest apprentice, Lord Tyranus, who presents them to the Geonosians for further study and development (since Sienar's original designs had several spheres connected to a main sphere; instead, we've just got one big, round battlemoon). After Dooku takes back the plans and presents the completed schematics to Sidious, the Dark Lord would take control of the Republic as Palpatine, then commission new designers (such as Bevel Lemelisk, Nasdra Magrody, Umak Leth, Qwi Xux, and so on) to work on the final product to make it that much better.

So you see, it all fits. Every last bit of it.

~JTS

[Justin]

I think Darth Vader designed the Death Star, so there would be convenient reactor shafts to sneak up and throw the Emporer down.

[James T. Skywalker]

So Vader designed the Death Star II? Figures, he can't just settle for being the Chosen One and the hottest pilot in the Empire (next to Fel, of course style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif), he has to go and start designing superweapons. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

~JTS

[Strke Brelk]

Somebody mentioned Ep2 disagreeing with Zahn's novels. They actually tidy that up right in the movie (and novelization) by indicating that there are several methods for cloning. Clone madness only happens in clones made from spaarti cloning cylinders used by C'Boath in the Zahn series.

[Meche]

Yeah, but Zahn's books place the Clone Wars a bit earlier than they actually were.

Whether this is his fault or not, his books still don't match up.

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by Meche@July 22 2002 - 07:44
Yeah, but Zahn's books place the Clone Wars a bit earlier than they actually were.
Ah, but Zahn's dates weren't his fault. Lucas could have told him how to correct the dates in the Hand of Thrawn duology, but gave him dates to use that Lucas later invalidated.

If anything, it's Lucas's fault that Zahn got the dating wrong.

~JTS

[Mask of Ice]

So... back on topic anyone?

[Soontir Solo]

JTS: The Rogue Planet reference is perfect, exactly what I was thinking. It allows everything involving the Death Star to fit in pretty good.

[Durnar]

Watching the deleted trial scene from Ep2 (btw, whats the canon-status on deleted scenes?), Poggle says something along the lines of 'we build weapons'. That says it all for me, they *build* weapons. No mention of them designing the DS. So, my guess is that the plans were there so that the DS could be built around Geonosis, but then everything went to hell and they got some convicts tto build it.
As for who designed the DS, everyone did. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue2.gif

[Matt]

I think 'A Death Star is Born' is definately cannon. Don't try to persuade me otherwsie! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

It makes sense for the Geonosians to build the weapon. Who's it say builds it in the new essential guide to vehicles, or as it not yet been made? But aren't the Empire supposed to be xenophobic? I know it doesn't say in the films but in the EU.... I don't think the empire's gonna let their ultimate weapon designs go to some damned ALIENS! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue2.gif

[Soontir Solo]

Durnar: As far as I am concerned deleted scenes are cannon for the most part.

[Matt]

Yes they are, as most appear in the novelisations.

[Soontir Solo]

Yah, and plus they are first hand Lucas creations.

[Sam Kenobi]

Ya, except for the scenes that he changed, like the Mace Windu/Obi scene. That couldn't fity in the movie since he changed that scene to have Yoda in it.

[MXCABRINI]

Me style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Tresk Im'nel]

I think we can probably fit all the established material into one continuity if we try. I recall jSarek posting a more detailed version on TOS, and any mistakes or omissions here are mine, not his, but a rough sketch might read a bit like this:

-Raith Sienar begins design work on the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid, which he shows plans for to Wilhuff Tarkin.

-Tarkin leaks details of the EBP to Chancellor Palpatine, who covertly orders development of a similar weapon on Geonosis under Darth Tyranus's supervision.

-Darth Tyranus brings the Geonosians' further-developed schematics to Darth Sidious (Palpatine) for safekeeping at the outbreak of the Clone Wars.

-After the Clone Wars, the Death Star project is reactivated under Imperial control. The Maw Installation is established for R&D work on the program.

-Construction of the first Death Star begins over Despayre...

[Durnar]

And in the Maw Lemelisk was in charge generally, and Qwi XUx designed the weapons, right?

[Tresk Im'nel]

And in the Maw Lemelisk was in charge generally, and Qwi XUx designed the weapons, right?

I believe so...

[RougePilot09]

It was an Imperial think tank, they had a number of brilliant designers there creating weapons of mass destruction. Bevel Lemelisk was just in charge on the Maw facility.

[Soontir Solo]

Tresk: Looks good to me, it all seems to fit I think.

[Tresk Im'nel]

As far as I am concerned deleted scenes are cannon for the most part.

I should have twigged to this when I first saw it, but I had a mental lapse. I actually raised this very issue with Leland Chee on the TOS boards a few months ago, and the answer is yes, the deleted scenes are a part of continuity. Unless, of course, they contradict the films as released, but that's usually unlikely.

Although, actually, in the instance that caused me to ask the question, the deleted Jedi Temple hangar scene does contradict the asteroid chase scene on some of the more minor details of the undersurface colour scheme pattern of Obi-Wan's Delta-7. In this case, the scheme seen in the asteroid chase takes precedence. Of course, if the hangar scene had made it in, we'd probably have had another blooper on our hands, like the one with the X-wing cockpit colours in the OT...
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Looks good to me, it all seems to fit I think.

Thanks. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif Although much of the credit does go to jSarek. Also, I think Nathan Butler would probably be able to offer a pretty detailed rationalisation of the continuity on the matter. I'm sure it can all fit with a little creativity. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Lord Ulic]

Originally posted by Sam Kenobi@Sep 10 2004, 02:28 PM
Ya, except for the scenes that he changed, like the Mace Windu/Obi scene. That couldn't fity in the movie since he changed that scene to have Yoda in it.
Quoted post


Actually, the Fact Files state that he did talk again about the issue with Windu.

[Tresk Im'nel]

Okay, having just looked at my new DVD copy of ANH (style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif), I may be wrong about there being an inconsistency with the X-wing cockpit colours. It's just always struck me that the full-size mockups used for shooting with the actors had their interiors painted a very dark grey, somewhere between FS36320 Gunship Gray and RLM 66 Schwarzgrau, whereas the models used for exterior effects shots have their cockpits painted a lighter shade, somewhere in the neighbourhood of British Medium Sea Grey, if not lighter:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Xwing3.jpg

But, upon closer inspection, it seems to me that my subjective impression of the full-size mockups' colour may have been incorrect. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif My apologies to ILM and LFL.

EDIT: Looks like I was, indeed, wrong. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif Oh, well, I guess that's what happens when they're always in deep shadow... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by Tresk Im'nel@Sep 12 2004, 11:50 PM
I recall jSarek posting a more detailed version on TOS, and any mistakes or omissions here are mine, not his, but a rough sketch might read a bit like this:


I also did that, a long time ago.

~JTS

[James T. Skywalker]

Or Tresk, follow me here: maybe you weren't wrong, maybe the Star Wars Technical Commentaries were wrong...

Is that so hard to believe?

~JTS

[Tresk Im'nel]

Or Tresk, follow me here: maybe you weren't wrong, maybe the Star Wars Technical Commentaries were wrong...

Is that so hard to believe?

Oh, of course it's possible, you may recall how vehemently I disagree with Saxton on Rebel Alliance ranks and my stubborn insistence that his essay on Endor be treated as a worst-case scenario. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif But that's not an issue here: Saxton doesn't say anything about X-wing paint schemes, interior or otherwise, he just has a gallery of pics of an actual ILM filming model on his site, and it was the most convenient link I could think of. Sorry if I offended you, but I'm not someone who automatically accepts everything the SWTC pages say, and I'd have thought you'd know that by now. Conversely, there are quite a few areas where he actually does have a point, too.

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood. Not your fault at all. No offence intended. Still friends? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif (If we ever were to begin with?) style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

But in this instance, it is a photograph of an actual ILM model used in the making of the film. I've also noted light cockpit colours apparent in the outside shots of X-wings in the films, especially the CG sequences from the SE's. Also, the illustration in the OT ICS book and the instructions for the Fine Molds 1:72 scale kit indicate a light shade of grey. So I'm not going by something Saxton says, (I don't think he cares much about paint schemes, but I'm a modeller, so I do), I'm just using one of his pics to illustrate my observation.

So the only indication that the X-wing interior was Extra Dark Sea Grey was my own subjective observation, which has proven wrong when I made a more detailed comparison to all film and EU sources. So what's the problem? Do you have to hit the ceiling every time someone links a picture on the SWTC site!? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue2.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Tresk Im'nel]

Dang. I'm sorry, JTS, I didn't mean to get all defensive like that. It's just that I wanted it to make it clear that the whole thing about two different X-wing cockpit colours was entirely my own mistake and had nothing to do with the SWTC, since there seems to have been a mistunderstanding over that. But I didn't mean to get all shirty with you like that. Sorry.

[Soontir Solo]

I didn't read it to be offensive Tresk, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Tresk Im'nel]

Thanks, 'Tir. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[James T. Skywalker]

Trust me, Tresk, you'd have to do a lot more than type a few words on a website to make me angry. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Well, unless you're an uber-troll at SW.com (which you're obviously not), or a super-newbie (again, ditto). style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

~JTS

[Tresk Im'nel]

Thanks, Jim. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif Am I worrying too much again? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

But the great thing is, now that I've gotten a good look at the OT DVDs, I can go ahead and start work on my 1:72 scale X-wing without worrying about the cockpit colour: light grey is definitely correct. (I'm planning on finishing it in Tycho's markings from the X-wing novels instead of any of the four Battle of Yavin options from the kit, just to be different... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif)

Uhm, sorry to have wandered off-topic. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Soontir Solo]

Wandering off topic is expected. You wouldn't be human if you didn't from time to time.