Religons of the Force

[maddog62]

In a Galaxy of thousands of different species of alliens and humaniods I find it hard to believe that only 2 practice thae darkside of the force. there may not be anymore than 2 sith but there must be other types of darkside users such what is listed in the darkside source book. I will bet that Sly Moore and others will turn out to be Darkside users. With the jedi having 10,000 serving peace and Justice there has top be the other side of the spectrum. Not to steel from SLJ (Mr. Glass) in Unbreakable. I think we will be suprised like hell because in a Movie we will already no the final out come he will need to trick us.

[BEARlyworking]

The EU has others who mingle with the darkside. But, that's EU - may or may not mean anything to you.

[Zane Marit]

Supposedly the teachings of the Sith are only passed between a master and an apprentice. When there were several Sith in the Galaxy, they fought each other as well as the Jedi and eventually wiped themselves out. One Sith that survived instituted the rule of 2 from that point on.

I know its EU but it does explain in EPI when yoda says 2 there are no more no less...


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Zane Marit@Jun 12 2003, 09:31 PM
Supposedly the teachings of the Sith are only passed between a master and an apprentice. When there were several Sith in the Galaxy, they fought each other as well as the Jedi and eventually wiped themselves out. One Sith that survived instituted the rule of 2 from that point on.

I know its EU but it does explain in EPI when yoda says 2 there are no more no less...


style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif
What I am saying is Sith is only 1 secular religon of the darkside. Kind of like Cathosism is one sec. of Cristianity. I think for Lucas to even the odds he will have to introduce some other darkside conspiritors. There are several options allready rumored. Aurra Sing, Nightsisters, the Clone Wars cartoon chick, the Jedi traitors and or someone new or even I hate to say Xio Jade. Ow no, I said it, I am hanging up right now, don't call 911.

[Master Sage]

Ow no, I said it, I am hanging up right now, don't call 911.


LOL!

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Master Sage@Jun 12 2003, 11:18 PM
Ow no, I said it, I am hanging up right now, don't call 911.


LOL!
Thanks some time I even Laugh with you.

[bodhisattva yoda]

there is something in episode 1 to indicate that there are probably dark jedi that aren't necessarily sith. after qui-gon is confronted by darth maul, the jedi council doesn't automatically conclude that he was a sith. it was skeptical speculation at that point. so even with the malevolent force powers and red lightsaber, darth maul was only thought to maybe, possibly be a sith.

[JediBendu]

there aren't more Sith because the Jedi have been actively repressing the teachings of the Dark Side. Just like the Catholic church represses the fact that Jesus was a raving queen with a penchant of young boys, so to does Yoda repress the fact that Sith power is soooo much more fun than than the Light and can give the weilder a new sense of self worth and confidence that's decidedly lacking amongst the Jedi.

(ok that was a little politically sensative style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif source: a London PhD student has just been given a 50K grant to prove: Jesus the Homosexual. It's caused quite an uproar over here)

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by bodhisattva yoda@Jun 12 2003, 05:31 PM
there is something in episode 1 to indicate that there are probably dark jedi that aren't necessarily sith. after qui-gon is confronted by darth maul, the jedi council doesn't automatically conclude that he was a sith. it was skeptical speculation at that point. so even with the malevolent force powers and red lightsaber, darth maul was only thought to maybe, possibly be a sith.
I agree entirely, I made that point in another thread to which sombody just dodged it, but yes, the Jedi do not know Count Dooku is a Sith either, so that must mean that you can use the Dark Side without being a Sith.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by TK-007+Jun 13 2003, 12:23 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TK-007 @ Jun 13 2003, 12:23 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-bodhisattva yoda@Jun 12 2003, 05:31 PM
there is something in episode 1 to indicate that there are probably dark jedi that aren't necessarily sith. after qui-gon is confronted by darth maul, the jedi council doesn't automatically conclude that he was a sith. it was skeptical speculation at that point. so even with the malevolent force powers and red lightsaber, darth maul was only thought to maybe, possibly be a sith.
I agree entirely, I made that point in another thread to which sombody just dodged it, but yes, the Jedi do not know Count Dooku is a Sith either, so that must mean that you can use the Dark Side without being a Sith. [/b][/quote]
I am on the same page with both of you. A crooket cop aint neciserily a gangster.

[Javen]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Jun 13 2003, 03:01 AM
Just like the Catholic church represses the fact that Jesus was a raving queen with a penchant of young boys,
What exactly are you saying there.? Because I seriously don't like what you're intending.

[Jediwan]

Originally posted by maddog62@Jun 12 2003, 01:20 PM
In a Galaxy of thousands of different species of alliens and humaniods I find it hard to believe that only 2 practice thae darkside of the force. there may not be anymore than 2 sith but there must be other types of darkside users such what is listed in the darkside source book. I will bet that Sly Moore and others will turn out to be Darkside users. With the jedi having 10,000 serving peace and Justice there has top be the other side of the spectrum. Not to steel from SLJ (Mr. Glass) in Unbreakable. I think we will be suprised like hell because in a Movie we will already no the final out come he will need to trick us.
There is also the pontemium which believes that tere is only the light side. And there are those monks mentioned in the hand of thrawn series that there are these monks that believe in the force like a rainbow.

[Darth Vegas]

That's kinda gay.

[Zane Marit]

OMG...TK and I actually agree on something... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[maddog62]

Originally posted by TK-007@Jun 13 2003, 07:25 PM
That's kinda gay.
Rainbow=Queer=some other f@#$ing movie so go away

[James T. Skywalker]

Well, I'm going to use my "blasphemous" EU knowledge to provide info on a few other Force-sects, dark side and light side users:

--Jensaari: a group of Force users who were neither light nor dark, though their original teachings were based on those of an ancient Sith relic on their world; their leader was defeated by Nejaa Halcyon (who himself was killed during the this battle following the end of the Clone Wars) but their tradition lived on, and many grew up hating the Jedi. When Corran Horn and Luke Skywalker discovered them while searching for Corran's wife Mirax, they were able (with the help of Corran's Caamasi aide Elegos) to convince them that the Jedi weren't bad, and many later became Jedi themselves

--Witches of Dathomir: the descendants of a fallen Jedi named Allya, the witches of Dathomir lived on the homeworld of the fierce rancor, and used the Force to tame these beasts into herd beasts and mounts. The witches of Dathomir would later splinter in clans, and would foster some hostilities toward other clans. When a clan member would use the Dark Side of the Force, these witches (who were very predominantly female) would grow lesions and warts and such as outward signs of inward darkness. These witches would be cast of out their clan and forced to live on their own. During the Rebellion era, these outcasts formed their own clan, known as the Nightsisters, led by an evil dark sider named Gethzerion. Though these dark side witches were defeated, another group of them sprung up again just prior to the New Jedi Order era.

--Aing-Tii: the Aing-Tii monks are quite dissimilar from the Jedi in many ways, singularly because they view the Force as not light nor dark nor gray inbetween, but as a rainbow. The Aing-Tii live in the Kathol Sector of the Outer Rim, and are reclusive beings that jealously guard their territory and their privacy. The Aing-Tii despise slavers, and the only time they take hostile action is to stop such vessels. The Jedi were aware of the Aing-Tii during the days of the Old Republic, and while Yoda lived on Dagobah, he directed Jorj Car'das to develop his latent Force-sensitivity (which was a result of Yoda's healing Car'das) with the monks.

--H'kig: the H'kig are more like the modern Earth religions of Christianity, Buddhism and others that worship deities. However, the H'kig also acknowledge that these deities exist within the Force, and that the Jedi and other Force-using peoples are bound by the same laws of those deities since they serve the Force. Since those deities are the essence of the Force, to the H'kig, the Jedi are well respected by them.

SHATTERPOINT SPOILERS!



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--Korunnai: from Mace Windu's homeplanet of Haruun Kal, the Korunnai are the natives of this world. The original settlers of Haruun Kal were descended of Jedi, and all Korunnai are born with latent Force-sensitivity. The Korunnai live in the jungles of Haruun Kal, which are atop great highlands that reach above the tops of the noxious gasses that are expelled by the many volcanoes on the planet. The Koruns develop strong Force-bonds with the native akk dogs, fierce beasts that respond only to their masters' commands. The Koruns are not entirely skilled with use of the Force, or what they know as pelekotan, but some have been born extremely gifted with such talents, including Mace Windu (who was sent to the Jedi Temple after an agreement was made between the elders of Mace's clan, ghosh Windu, and Jedi anthropologists; Mace was an orphan) and Kar Vastor (another child of ghosh Windu).

Those are but a few of the Force-related religions in the galaxy (from the EU of course). The Sith are not the only Dark Side force users, of course: there are Dark Jedi (Jedi who have abandoned the Order and now use the Dark Side, but are not trained as Sith) and Dark Side adepts, Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands, and more.

~JTS

[mtilden]

What exactly are you saying there.? Because I seriously don't like what you're intending.


I don't think that he means anything, he is just being facetious.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by JamesTSkywalker@Jun 13 2003, 02:48 PM
--H'kig: the H'kig are more like the modern Earth religions of Christianity, Buddhism and others that worship deities.
Buddhists do not worship any deity.

[spaceman2386]

I think the two sith do the Hitler thing. they don't try to take over everything all at once they start out small but move fact and build there evil empire underground then when the time is right release their evil ness and then every one is caught by suprize.

so it is not just 2 people controlling everything. it is 2 people controlling a lot of evil people that's is controlling everything. right style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif

[Jedi Killer]

theres only two sides of the force. we're taking this sh*t too seriously.

in the Star Wars universe, there's good and evil. nothing more, nothing less.

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by TK-007+Jun 13 2003, 07:12 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TK-007 @ Jun 13 2003, 07:12 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-JamesTSkywalker@Jun 13 2003, 02:48 PM
--H'kig: the H'kig are more like the modern Earth religions of Christianity, Buddhism and others that worship deities.
Buddhists do not worship any deity. [/b][/quote]
Their beliefs are more Buddhist that Christian, which is why I included them.

Sorry I didn't clarify that.

~JTS

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by Jedi Killer@Jun 14 2003, 11:20 AM
theres only two sides of the force. we're taking this sh*t too seriously.

in the Star Wars universe, there's good and evil. nothing more, nothing less.
Is there ever a clear-cut good and evil? No. There's always a gray area. All life is that way. Good and evil are in the eye of the beholder, even GL realizes this. That's why people like Lando Calrissian and Han Solo are such unique characters; they're the gray area, in the movies. Han's business, smuggling, is against the law, even in the Republic. That doesn't make him an evil person. Lando betrayed his friends and is a gambler and a liar, but he's not evil either. In the same way, there are bad guys who do things because they're ordered to. They're following orders; that doesn't mean they themselves are evil. Did we ever see Admiral Piett execute an officer or deliberately murder people for no reason? No, because he's in that gray area.

There's never just good and evil, there's always more than two sides to any story.

~JTS

[Jedi Killer]

nooooo, those two are good. Good guys wear white, bad guys wear black. good guys use green or blue sabers, bad guys use red ones. their is a grey area in the real world but star wars geeks need to realize that these movies arent real and are cut and dry

[Javen]

Jedikiller is right in a way.You're either good or bad. There is no such as that in the real world either.N in betweens.Is Dooku good or bad?He may be playing both sides, but we know his intentions,and it's not good.

[James T. Skywalker]

But there is a world outside of the Civil War and the Clone Wars. In the Star Wars galaxy there are real people on real planets other than those we've seen in the movies. Do you think that everyone on Tatooine is either good or bad? Is everyone on Coruscant just a corrupt senator or a sleavy underworld figure? No.

There's always an in-between, even in movies. Even GL has affirmed that there is always a middle ground. The Force may have two sides, but more than not people take the middle route. Flirt the edge of the lines, if you will.

~JTS

[maddog62]

Originally posted by Jedi Killer@Jun 14 2003, 07:20 PM
theres only two sides of the force. we're taking this sh*t too seriously.

in the Star Wars universe, there's good and evil. nothing more, nothing less.
There are many shades of good and evil.

[Jedi Killer]

In the Star Wars galaxy there are real people on real planets other than those we've seen in the movies.

its called reality my friend, open your eyes. Your taking these movies too seriously

[Blizzard]

Dude, Killer. It's a Star Wars message board and everyone here is serious about Star Wars, including me.

Aside from the aliens, SW is not so different from real life.

[JediBendu]

Originally posted by Jedi Killer@Jun 15 2003, 04:13 AM
its called reality my friend, open your eyes. Your taking these movies too seriously
"Luke, you're going to find a lot of the truths we cling to depend upon our own point of view." - obi, roj

JK- I sense much fear in you style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif GL's own opinion is that evil exists because bad things done to good people - is Dooku really all that evil? Anakin was proven to have good still in him. Luke showed he could exude hatred and be just as evil.

I don't think that he means anything, he is just being facetious.
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif ...study was real though

[Jedi Killer]

Originally posted by Blizzard@Jun 15 2003, 12:39 AM
Dude, Killer. It's a Star Wars message board and everyone here is serious about Star Wars, including me.

Aside from the aliens, SW is not so different from real life.
Are you kidding me? Gee, lemme think. lets try that real life doesnt have lightsabers, the force, life on multiple planets, spacestations (death stars), fighting and talking droids, lightspeed technology, laser guns, spaceship shields, etc etc. the list could go on. hell, for some forbidden love doesnt exist in the real world. haha style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif jk

i'm just saying that some people need to get a grip and realize that these are just fun movies to watch.

[James T. Skywalker]

Dude, like Bliz said, you're at a Star Wars message board. You're taking time out of your day to talk about this unreal world. You've been in 501 discussions about one thing or another on this site alone. At least understand that your opinion that this is something that shouldn't be taken so seriously is not the only opinion. I don't take the movies, books, and such seriously; I understand that they are unreal and have no bearing on my world or those around me. And yet, from my understanding of the franchise, the movies, the books, the comics, the video games, the role-playing and card games, the magazines, and so on and so forth, I realize that there are hints of truth, of reality, in everything. Fiction is always grounded in some reality. As such, these movies are grounded in some reality. What that reality is is open to interpretation. But I see more than just good and evil. And if you get past the lightsabers and the machines that talk and the spacestations, you'd realize that there is more to these movies than just one side versus another. That's how all good movies and franchises work. And this is a good franchise.

~JTS

[JediBendu]

you mean I can't really levitate stones? What am going to do at parties now!?

[James T. Skywalker]

Try twirling lightsabers. Good party trick, little kids love when you accidentally chop off a limb.

~JTS

[maddog62]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Jun 16 2003, 07:51 AM
you mean I can't really levitate stones? What am going to do at parties now!?
You can't bendu

[Mothman]

Originally posted by JamesTSkywalker@Jun 16 2003, 08:24 AM
Try twirling lightsabers. Good party trick, little kids love when you accidentally chop off a limb.

~JTS
LOL style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Count Dookie]

Originally posted by Jedi Killer@Jun 14 2003, 05:01 PM
nooooo, those two are good. Good guys wear white, bad guys wear black. good guys use green or blue sabers, bad guys use red ones. their is a grey area in the real world but star wars geeks need to realize that these movies arent real and are cut and dry
That was GREAT!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Count Dookie]

Originally posted by Blizzard@Jun 15 2003, 01:39 AM
Dude, Killer. It's a Star Wars message board and everyone here is serious about Star Wars, including me.

Aside from the aliens, SW is not so different from real life.
You are here to take SW as movies, books, and comics as fun entertainment. That is all they are...we unfortunately live in the real world which is why we need SW. They are MOVIES...no more...no less. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

[Count Dookie]

Originally posted by Jedi Killer+Jun 16 2003, 12:34 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jedi Killer @ Jun 16 2003, 12:34 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Blizzard@Jun 15 2003, 12:39 AM
Dude, Killer. It's a Star Wars message board and everyone here is serious about Star Wars, including me.

Aside from the aliens, SW is not so different from real life.
Are you kidding me? Gee, lemme think. lets try that real life doesnt have lightsabers, the force, life on multiple planets, spacestations (death stars), fighting and talking droids, lightspeed technology, laser guns, spaceship shields, etc etc. the list could go on. hell, for some forbidden love doesnt exist in the real world. haha style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif jk

i'm just saying that some people need to get a grip and realize that these are just fun movies to watch. [/b][/quote]
Killer...you are right on the money!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[Jedi Killer]

I've got a follower. so HA for all of those who think my thoughts are crazy. cause they are actually logical

[Javen]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Jun 15 2003, 04:22 AM
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif ...study was real though
Yeah? So that doesn't make him saying the truth.Which he isn't.

[JediBendu]

Originally posted by maddog62+Jun 16 2003, 03:07 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(maddog62 @ Jun 16 2003, 03:07 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-JediBendu@Jun 16 2003, 07:51 AM
you mean I can't really levitate stones? What am going to do at parties now!?
You can't bendu [/b][/quote]
oh

*crash*

damnit!

<my focus determines my reality, my focus determines my reality, my focus determines my reality>

[JediBendu]

Yeah? So that doesn't make him saying the truth.Which he isn't.

I completely agree - in the same way that what's written in the torah isn't saying the Truth, nor the koran, nor the bible
So who's telling the truth - the Jedi or the Sith?
The Jedi actively repress Sith teachings, while the Sith plan for total Jedi decimation. Obviously both 'religions' tend to think their own point of view as more valid than the other.

[maddog62]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Jun 17 2003, 07:10 AM
Yeah? So that doesn't make him saying the truth.Which he isn't.

I completely agree - in the same way that what's written in the torah isn't saying the Truth, nor the koran, nor the bible
So who's telling the truth - the Jedi or the Sith?
The Jedi actively repress Sith teachings, while the Sith plan for total Jedi decimation. Obviously both 'religions' tend to think their own point of view as more valid than the other.
Do i got to spell it out for you Bendu the Truth depends on your own point of view. So basicly they are both lying.

[PhantomX]

Originally posted by maddog62@Jun 17 2003, 05:30 AM
the Truth depends on your own point of view. So basicly they are both lying.
Of course, How else would Ben learn his cute "point of view" method of lies?

[JediBendu]

Of course, How else would Ben learn his cute "point of view" method of lies?

his 'cute' point of view seems fraught with fear and aprehension

[JediBendu]

Originally posted by maddog62@Jun 17 2003, 12:30 PM
Do i got to spell it out for you Bendu the Truth depends on your own point of view. So basicly they are both lying.
preachin to the converted here mate style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

but I don't think both sides giving there own point of view constitutes lieing.
not being entirely forthcoming on the power the dark side can bring could be looked as negative, if you were a sith, or very positive, if you were a chronically repressed alien with no outlet except of mediation classes with a 2ft high gremlin style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[DblDwn]

In Star Wars the Force is, more or less, God. It is the almighty power that guides people. The Jedi are like angels who go around "preaching" about it and doing "God's" work. The Sith are the demons. One's with angelic ability who choose themselves over the greater good.

In this interpretation isn't it believed in most, if not all, religions that God, in whatever form, has the power to take anyone's life when God sees fit? If God is almighty then God is the puppet master. If the Force, as God in the Star Wars universe, decided that Padme had to die in order to protect her children so that they could in turn grow up to defeat the demons then so be it.

Or perhaps the Force, as God in Star Wars and Anakin being the Chosen One who is born of the Force as the son of the Force, took Padme because she is the reason that Anakin turned to the Dark Side of the Force. Which isn't hard to imagine because if there is a light side and a dark side of the Force then it would stand to reason that even the Force would use both sides of itself from time to time for the greater good.

[Mothman]

In Star Wars the Force is, more or less, God. It is the almighty power that guides people.....

But it is like the centuries-old Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate. How much free will is there as opposed to some predetermined outcome.

[walong]

In Star Wars the Force is, more or less, God. It is the almighty power that guides people.
The problem that I have with that is, from a story perspective, it turns the characters into robots who are just following their foreordained, preprogrammed courses. Their decisions no longer matter, because it is the force that is calling the shots.

If the Force, as God in the Star Wars universe, decided that Padme had to die in order to protect her children so that they could in turn grow up to defeat the demons then so be it.
But that is completely arbitrary. How many other characters in the SW universe just die off because the force decided so? And there is no longer any meaning or dramatic purpose to Padme deciding to die to save her babies, if the force is going to bump her off anyway.

It is also needlessly convoluted, at least to me. If the force (a) is all-powerful, and (b)cares so much about good winning over evil, and (c) has no regard for free will, and (d) can take lives whenever it wants, then why doesn't it just take Palpatine's life (or keep him from being born) and leave everyone else in peace? There doesn't seem to be much point to going thru all that rigamarole of having a "Chosen One" from a virgin birth who is going to arise, become evil, kill millions of people, and then be saved/redeemed by his offspring while destroying the (truly) evil one.

There is especially no purpose to it if the character's decisions to choose good over evil no longer matter. The saga becomes a failure as a morality play, because there is no longer any morality.

[DblDwn]

It is also needlessly convoluted, at least to me. If the force (a) is all-powerful, and (b)cares so much about good winning over evil, and (c) has no regard for free will, and (d) can take lives whenever it wants, then why doesn't it just take Palpatine's life (or keep him from being born) and leave everyone else in peace? .

From a Christian point of view, in real life, why doesn't God? Why didn't God keep Hitler from being born? Why didn't God keep Osama Bin Laden from being born? Why didn't God keep Saddam Hussein from being born? Why didn't God keep Kim Jong Il from being born? Why didn't God keep Ivan the Terrible from being born? Do I need to continue? There are lots more throughout history. Why did God, again from the Christian point of view, allow his only son to suffer pain and suffering to die on the cross for all mankind to be forgiven? Pain and suffering. Kinda sounds like the Dark Side doesn't it? And look, Anakin joined the Dark Side also didn't he?

The main basis of your argument regarding a fictious story is to post a question that cannot even be logically answered in real world beliefs let alone in a cinematic piece. Nice try though.

[Zedekk]

Hey I know lets start a thread on the Force and comparable religious refrences and infrences and debate that there. the why did God let all these people get born, even though somewhat amusing, doesn't stick to any remote answer about Padme giving birth to her own children and then "mysteriously" dying. But I'd be all up for talking about the Force and religion elsewhere.

[DblDwn]

That's fine and dandy but I would rather walong responded here first.

[walong]

^ "Why doesn't God.....?" The short answer is: free will. That's the part that makes a story interesting too, but free will is meaningless when the force is calling the shots and becomes the agent that is responsible for seeing that "destinies" are met in accordance with its own purposes.

[DblDwn]

In the bible didn't God cause the great flood that God himself warned Noah of when he told him to build the Ark and take 2 of every animal? Is that not an example of the force "calling the shots" altering free will and doing things for their own purposes?

[Zedekk]

Yeah but the fact that Noah followed Gods direction is Noah fulfilling his destiny this is a very good example of what you are debating here. I'm pretty sure Noah could have said "I don't want to be holed up in an ark for however many days with a bunch of animals and my family. We can't stand each other as it is." But he said yeah it could be cool. and did it. Now if Noah had said "bring the rain on, God. I don't care", then God would have got what he wanted anyway, destroyed and start over, with Noah he destroyed and got the man he chose, and if he wasn't happy about his choice he could have chosen better.

So its a choose and let choose situation which is what life is all about in the first place. Decisions. The decisions you make regarding the surrounding environment you are in and how you hope to or would like to influence the environment in turn determines what your actions will be. Now, if you choose, but choose poorly, then you end up rotting away on the floor of some dank musty cave with a knight of the crusades whos guarding the holy grail looking on in dismay, but if you choose and choose wisely then you're Indiana ****ing Jones baby!

[DblDwn]

You're missing the point. God created the flood but he also chose to warn Noah of it and instructed him to create the Ark. If God tells you to do something, through the interpretations of the Bible and assuming one is a minion of the Lord, then you do it. So in that sense Noah didn't have a choice and that is perhaps why God chose him in the first place. The point of my mentioning of that is that God took control of "destiny" and continued to do so when he not only warned Noah beforehand but also instructed him on how to preserve life beyond that event. That's not the aforementioned "free will" that walong continues to bring up. That is God excercising divine intervention of sorts.

Like when he came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets from hitting Jules and Vincent. I figured we're referencing other many in our examples so there you go.

[Zedekk]

So wait a minute if destiny is already "set" and someone did kill Hitler as a baby, then someone else would have played that part in history?

[walong]

God created the flood but he also chose to warn Noah of it and instructed him to create the Ark. If God tells you to do something, through the interpretations of the Bible and assuming one is a minion of the Lord, then you do it. So in that sense Noah didn't have a choice and that is perhaps why God chose him in the first place. The point of my mentioning of that is that God took control of "destiny" and continued to do so when he not only warned Noah beforehand but also instructed him on how to preserve life beyond that event. That's not the aforementioned "free will" that walong continues to bring up. That is God excercising divine intervention of sorts.
First, I think a note of caution is in order here when considering literal interpretations of the Bible esp. in cases like this. As I've said elsewhere, these accounts were written in times when authoritarianism was the norm in most (if not all) cultures. So it was natural for the authors to portray God in authoritarian terms such as doling out floods as punishments, as no one in those times would have accepted God as the ultimate authority if He was portayed otherwise.

WRT free will: the whole idea behind the Noah story is that Noah & his family were saved because they chose to follow God. Yes God told Noah what to do, but Noah was still free to obey or disobey. The choice always was entirely up to him; God did not usurp Noah's exercising of his free will. God did not coerce Noah into obedience (i.e., "do as I say or else I will smite you"). That idea is a result of thinking about it in authoritatian terms.

[EmperorPalpatine]

There are still the dark Jedi to pass down the dark teachings. The aprentice of the dark Jedi could become a sith when they lose faith in their masters. THat's the reason why there is little sith left in the time of Phamton Menace, Attack of the Clones and the Revenge of the Sith.

[Darth Massacrus]

Why I am I reminded of the movie Boys from Brazil?

also, what if there was no Force? what would have happened then?

[Blizzard]

what if there was no Force? what would have happened then?

What do you mean?

The Force is with us... always.

[Darth Massacrus]

Apparently you never heard of the Jedi Exile or Darth Traya... check the Darth Traya thread...