Qui-Gon's Death

[darth covington]

I was watching the DUEL OF THE FATES video and every time i see qui gon i get upset.i belive that darth maul couldn't have possibly killed qui gon he was too good qui gon is a very good jedi knight and for him to die like that to the rather untalented darth maul was utter madness especally that maul didn't kill obi wan! i mean look at his background: he was count dooku's padawan 2:he trained two jedi's (i'm including obi wan)into knighthood. 3:he fights in a combination of form three and form two lightsaber combat(in case you don't know form three is how obi wan faught in AOTC and form two is how dooku faught) i mean the odds were completly in qui gon's favor i think he should have survived and become one of the council and fight dooku in AOTC. :sly:

[haYDen CHriSteNSEn LoVEr]

please calm down and dont get upset, i have said this many times before, qui-gon is not finished yet
why?
in the OT, when both obi-wan (ben ) and yoda die, they leave a pile of clothes behind, and there bodies disintergrate, to become one with the force, qui-gons didnt, so my instinks (sp?) tell me he will return and give guidence to obi-wan either before anakin turns or after when he wish's to hide, after handing luke over the the lars'.
he will be back and he will be giving advise like the wise jedi he is!

[Saranac]

Ok Darth Covington do you hate Darth Maul that bad.

I mean I didn't like him that much but every minute your going around about something wrong with him. GL did mess up with Maul but just relaxe GL had to find a way to have Qui-Gon die.

Yes I do agree Qui-Gon should have survived that fight.

[darth covington]

i just thought darth maul was the complete opposite of what a villian should be.at least youdo agree with me which is fourtunate (for me)

[LordTyranus]

Yeah you'd think that the apprentice would have been killed in the fight not the master, or in the very least if Maul killed the master he should have been able to finish off Obi, but oh well, GL needed a way to kill off Qui-Gon and while not totally logical it worked.

[Shadow Jedi Rhyro]

Although you're right that the odds should have been on Qui Gon's side Maul had the element of surprise. I mean Qui Gon had never dealt with a sith and obi wan was lucky to survive. Although having a great background the sith were in hiding for so long and in a one on one situation qui gon didn't have the knowledge to take the powerful warrior on. I don't think Qui Gon is gone for good and will appear in ep. iii and agree that he went down like a punk but hopefully mace will go down in a similar way. LOL (Take that one Samuel L. Jackson) style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

[iknoweverything]

I cheered when Quigon went down. Why? Mainly b/c i was sick of hearing people clap when Maul died ( gotta play devil's advocate sometimes). Another reason though is that it made sense, Quigon had never fought a sith before and lacked the knoweldge to take down someone like that. Obi Wan killing Maul though looked as damn clumsy as Han knocking Fett into the Sarlacc.

[Master Sage]

Maul was the better fighter. He had the element of surprise over the Jedi. His weapon style, form and powers are mostly unknown to the Jedi of that time. My surprise :eek: was when Maul died. To me the way Ob1 killed Maul was a little cheap. Being caught off guard after a display of arrogance is the chance you take when you a dark side character.

[Mothman]

Originally posted by Master Sage@Apr 16 2003, 06:30 AM
Being caught off guard after a display of arrogance is the chance you take when you a dark side character.
For all of his great fighting, Maul came off as pretty stupid in the end. The entire time that Obi was hanging on that thing, Maul was staring him down -- taunting him. You'd think that Darth M. would have noticed Obi telegraphing his next move when twice Obi looked to the side at Qui-Gon's lightsaber, even moving it slightly via the Force.

[Jedi Rohn Starr]

You can look at it this way:
Qui-Gon was trained in the traditional ways of the Jedi and therefor did not stray from the traditional/usual fighting style of the time.
Obi-Wan was still young and in training. Remember, he was reckless and headstrong. Obi did not necessarily follow the traditional ways of the Jedi. His rage at the death of Qui-Gon allowed him to surprise Maul.
As for Darth Maul, his arrogance cost him his life. He most likely let down his guard because he knew he was fighting a Jedi that was not fully trained.

[Jacen Solo]

Darth Maul was undoubltedly one of the best duelers in the Star Wars saga.

I think it's important to note that Qui-Gon only went down after he was separated from Obi-Wan ... this shows the power of the master-apprentice team.

[Raganork8]

Qui gon was so cool though I didn't like how he died, so far all the sith are wonderful fighters.

[mtilden]

Come on now, is there anyone here who seriously thought, the first time you watched TPM that Qui Gon might live? The moment that he started talking about training Anikin, you knew he was going to die to make way for Obi Wan to train the boy.

[Mad Hermit]

Originally posted by darth covington@Jul 23 2002, 10:18 AM
I was watching the DUEL OF THE FATES video and every time i see qui gon i get upset.i belive that darth maul couldn't have possibly killed qui gon he was too good qui gon is a very good jedi knight and for him to die like that to the rather untalented darth maul was utter madness especally that maul didn't kill obi wan! i mean look at his background: he was count dooku's padawan 2:he trained two jedi's (i'm including obi wan)into knighthood. 3:he fights in a combination of form three and form two lightsaber combat(in case you don't know form three is how obi wan faught in AOTC and form two is how dooku faught) i mean the odds were completly in qui gon's favor i think he should have survived and become one of the council and fight dooku in AOTC. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif Who was the other, besides Obi-Wan, that he trained into Knighthood??? I'm missing something here???

[Darth Vegas]

EU, and he never reached Knighthood, Qui-Gon's first apprentice was Xanatos.

[Jacen Solo]

Originally posted by darth covington@Jul 23 2002, 10:18 AM
to the rather untalented darth maul
Untalented? Darth Maul was anything but. I do understand what you're saying, though ... it was difficult to see Qui-Gon go. But I have a feeling we haven't seen the end of him.

[Vadenuez]

Everytime a "good" guy wins a duel in both trilogies, they always get some dark side help to succeed, don't ya think?

When Luke tried to beat Vader on ESB by fighting the "light" way he failed. On ROTJ Luke got really furious and chop the very same hand that Dooku did some years ago.

On the same way, Qui Gon fought the "right" way and lose. Obi Wan got enraged and slice Maul like cheese.

Seems like the light side is good for learning and leading a decent way of living but if you want to win a duel, you got to put a little gray on your fighting style...

[Count Dookie]

I agree. Maybe that is why the Jedi are so unprepared. The Sith had been gone for 1000 years and they thrive on the Dark Side. My guess is that it takes a little darkness and raw agressiveness to win. The Jedi have been living their lives in such fear of the Dark Side that they were completely unprepared for the strenght of the Sith...hence their rise and the Jedi fall.

[Swamprat_Jedi_Knight]

Well I can't help but get into yet another Maul debate. I have been in several, last summer and fall actually, but anyway...

I can't believe I keep hearing that Maul stinks and that he is a terrible fighter. Come on people!!! Have you watched the movie!!! (Sigh, However, I do respect others opinions) He is very talented, and I will go out on a limb and say, that he is the best lightsaber wielder we have seen in the films as of yet. I know technically Dooku is better, but I was not impressed with the Ep. II saber fighting too much. Don't get me wrong, I love the movie, but swinging around lighted tubes in the dark doesn't cut it for me. I like to see the clashing and battle, so I enjoyed the Ep. I duels more.

The thing is... Maul was good. Lucas built him up, maybe a little too much. A tragic death of the master Qui-Gon had to occur (it's a movie). Maul made it look easy, he wasn't even winded. Obi comes in. Good fight. Obi gets bested. Or not. Maul could have killed him, should have, but... he is alive in ANH so HE CAN"T DIE. Lucas messed up, and gives a great warrior a child's death. Sloppy, crappy, death. My grandma could have blocked Obi's killing blow for Pete sakes! However, I look at it from this perspective. Maul had to die for plot purposes. Lucas wanted him to die by getting cut in half. Lucas showed how Maul got cut in half, too long, so the audience could see what happened. Ending result, a terrible sloppy death, but the point still get across, and we have our hero for the movie, Obi-Wan-Kenobi the headstrong young apprentice, that saves the day by killing the GREAT Sith apprentice.

I liked Qui-Gon too. Hope to see the guy again. Personally I would have rather seen Maul in 2 episodes than Dooku, but I'm just a big fan. And that is my humble opinion. Rave if you like, but let's remain civil.

P.S. <<< If any of that didn't make sense, I just had my impacted wisdom teeth cut out, so I will claim that as the fault. Please, no pithy come backs about me losing my wisdom due to the surgery, and therefore reaching this conclusion. That is so predictable.>>> style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[P-Ray]

I like QuiGon a lot but GL was trying to show him as older and a little slower fighter. And I agree, he never encountered a Sith before. Plus, GL needed him to die to later show the "Force Spirits" or whatever they are officially called.

Also Maul needed to die so Sidious would need a new apprentice. Could anyone see Maul starting the Sepratists.

It's all for story purposes.

[Jedi Killer]

Also Maul needed to die so Sidious would need a new apprentice. Could anyone see Maul starting the Sepratists.


Maul didnt need to die, just another mess up in TPM. He should have ran with that character for the whole trilogy. kinda like how we had Vader in the OT. and yes, Maul could have lead the Separatists, only if they would have given him some lines to say in TPM. he was suppose to

[WJTW]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread...

Just wanted to ask if anyone noticed that Maul's sabre was actually still ignited when Obi-Wan leapt up? I always get an unsatisfied feeling whenever I see that scene. He can block two Jedi's moves, and he can't block that?

The duel could have been much longer... yes, it is long on its own, but a little more sense to it would have been better.

WJTW

[Soontir Solo]

Qui-Gon had to die in order to go ahead and continue the path of darkness for Anakin. Anakin was a slave and had to continue the path of losing those he loved so he would turn to the dark side. GL was right to have Qui-Gon killed, it had to happen. It was one step of many that would lead Anakin to become Vader.

[Raganork8]

Blah...
However we are lead to assume that this stated anakin down the sark path he never even mentions qui gon's death sometimes it all seems in vein
Plus he died like a chump that move was so stupid qui gon is better than that!

[cevans65]

First post 4 a while and no where as knowledgeable as most of you guys, so go easy.

Have 2 sort of agree with the Luuke Skywalker and haYDen ChristeNSEn LoVEr posts about not hearing the last of Qui-Gon.

I cannot believe GL would have ‘messed up’ over the death with the body not disintegrating. Therefore he either cannot have died 100%, or there is another reason?

The problem I have, which kinda brings me on to my other reasoning, is that he was killed and just to compound it, they burnt his ass to make sure. You notice above I say “hearing the last of” well, I just think someone will (have to) explain because of the body/ cloak thing rather than us seeing him in person again.

My own take on it, which might well have holes in it, is that maybe he was just a different type of Jedi? I may be wrong but has it been said that all Jedi’s disintegrate on death? With this, running a little further with it, 1 thing is always on my mind, Darth Maul didn’t disintegrate so maybe that is somewhat of a clue? Also it would help turn Anakin, as if he needed anything else, to the dark side, finding out that 1 of the 1st people he trusted, and that helped him was actually dark himself. (But again with this, nothing was said of it in AOTC by the council, and them with their almighty powers and all)

This is why I am not as knowledgeable as you lot, for my own sanity, I have limit my thinking and fact finding.

Whatever the outcome, and in my mind he cannot come back in any way, the issue as to why has to be explained.

If u blow any of this out of the water, remember what I said at the top please.

[RollaFett]

You're a friggin' MORON!




I'm kidding, of course. Your plea's for us to take it easy on you left me no other option, unfortunately. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
Anyway, back to topic...I never was under the impression that all Jedi disintregrate upon their death. Plenty of Jedi die during the battle at Geonosis and their bodies just lie there afterwards. That said, you may be on to something about the Jedi wanting to be sure that Qui-Gon was good and gone. The point has certainly been made on multiple occassions that Qui-Gon wasn't the type of Jedi the Council was particulary fond of, however, I don't believe the cremation was anything more than ceremonial. But I do wonder whether or not we've seen, or heard, the last of Qui-Gon as well.

By the way, it appears as though you are a new member. Welcome aboard!

[DblDwn]

For starters, don't trust anything Hayden Christensen Lover ever said because she was a Sith Witch in her own right.

Now on to the topic. I agree that it is ceremonial to burn Jedi upon there death and it had been so more many, many years. I believe that the ability to retain one's identity after death is derived from Anakin's being the Chosen One and from also having a connection with Anakin perhaps until the time that he fullfills the prophecy and all Jedi will be able to do so. Obi-Wan and Yoda, the two Jedi we have seen retain their identity so far, both had a strong connection with Anakin. As did Qui-Gon so it would make sense for him to have been the first to be able to retain the identity and it also makes sense for him to possibly come back and explain the process to some of the others in Episode III.

[Raganork8]

[QUOTE=DblDwn,Jul 6 2003, 02:23 PM] For starters, don't trust anything Hayden Christensen Lover ever said because she was a Sith Witch in her own right.
hehe.
Yeah, good taste though.

[JediBendu]

Originally posted by WJTW@Jun 21 2003, 05:31 PM
Sorry for bringing up an old thread...

Just wanted to ask if anyone noticed that Maul's sabre was actually still ignited when Obi-Wan leapt up? I always get an unsatisfied feeling whenever I see that scene. He can block two Jedi's moves, and he can't block that?

The duel could have been much longer... yes, it is long on its own, but a little more sense to it would have been better.

WJTW
I'm pretty sure it's on - he was tormenting Obi by creating all the sparks.
I agree with you though - why didn't Maul just block him? Probably a combination of suprise and the fact he didn't realise Obi would grab Qui-Gon's blade - when he turned around he was expecting Obi to be there unarmed.

[Krogenar]

Originally posted by DblDwn@Jul 6 2003, 03:23 PM
I believe that the ability to retain one's identity after death is derived from Anakin's being the Chosen One and from also having a connection with Anakin perhaps until the time that he fullfills the prophecy and all Jedi will be able to do so. Obi-Wan and Yoda, the two Jedi we have seen retain their identity so far, both had a strong connection with Anakin. As did Qui-Gon so it would make sense for him to have been the first to be able to retain the identity and it also makes sense for him to possibly come back and explain the process to some of the others in Episode III.
I have a different theory.

It's magic!

(twinkling, pixie sounds)

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Krogenar@Jul 7 2003, 11:46 AM
I have a different theory.

It's magic!

(twinkling, pixie sounds)
I'll one up you.

It's MOVIE MAGIC

[Gavin Darklighter]

I find the disappearing/non-disappearing Jedi as this. I believe that when a Jedi is knowing of his death and at peace with it, then he becomes one with the Force by disappearing, as seen with Obi-Wan and Yoda. When Jedi are not expecting to die, or they aren't at peace with it, they don't disappear, as seen with Qui-Gon and the Jedi on Geonosis that got killed. It all makes sense that way.

Anyhew, I don't think that Qui-Gon would come back in Ep. III. There's no point in it, so why should it be added?

[Raganork8]

The reason why some jedi dissapear is....
Anakin/vader.
"I will learn to keep people from dying"
Not quite but close considering that when vader is 'released' a great deal of power is as well, perhaps anakin's wish comes true and his power as the choosen one allows these spirits to be seen thus in a sense'keeping people from dying' from a certaint point of view.

[PhantomX]

But Obi-Wan appeared to Luke before Vadar died, there must be more to it.

[Raganork8]

You missed what I said ani/ vader in life with his choosen one powers forever changed the death of a jedi and possibly sith lord.

[PhantomX]

Ah, in life as well. That is certainly possible then.

Now that I think about it certainly is interesting that we haven't seen any other dead Jedi ghosts, from the other thousands of years the Jedi have been around. You'd think they would be everywhere... They would make for excellent spies for the Alliance.

Have any of you read the Conqueror series by Timothy Zahn? There when the aliens die there spirit (for lack of a better word) is stored in a little organ that they dissect out in life. In the books they're all over the place, and they use them as communication channels and spies and similar things.

[DarthMarinus]

Qui-Gonn being defeated by Darth Maul was simply the will of the force. It's a domino effect I believe. This had to happen for Obi-Wan to train him for Anakin to meet Padme to have Luke and Leia to all these other events to happen for him to to turn the darkside and yadda yadda yadda. Things happen for a reason. Without Qui-Gonn dying then balance would never have been brought to the Force.

Also, with what Luuke Skywalker said, there was the element of surprise and Qui-Gonn hadn't fought a Sith.

Tony

[DblDwn]

So in going by that logic the Force is what lead its "Chosen One" to the dark side in order to fullfill the prophecy and/or his destiny.

How's that for a mind f*#k? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[DarthMarinus]

Well DblDwn, it's like that saying, "The Lord works in mysterious ways." We may not like certain things in life but everything happens for a reason. I think this is where this is coming from. You know what I mean? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[DblDwn]

Oh I read you loud and clear and I do agree that it is a logical way of looking at the events of the saga.

After all.............EVERYTHING does in fact happens for a reason.

[DarthMarinus]

But I do understand where you're coming from about the "mind f!@$" thing. It's like, why does all the bad stuff have to happen? Alas, things happen for a reason. What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[DblDwn]

Keep in mind that Christianity says that Satan, through the Anti-Christ, will one day rule the world with that whole Mark of the Beast thing and such. Then one day God and the powers of good prevail and everyone lives happily ever after in Heaven. (I'm not a religious person so I summized it best I could)

Kind of like the Emperor being allowed his Empire and his reign of power before the power of good defeats him in the end.

I just want to go back in remind everyone about how Satan was an Angel in Heaven who tried to overthrow God and was banished to Hell forever only because it fits with my theory where Sifo-Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council who eventually became the leader of the bad guys as well (Sidious/Palpatine/Emperor) only to be defeated in the end by the powers of good.

Just something to ponder ???

[Raganork8]

Stepping back for a moment...
Consider ani/never became vader, who would have killed palpy? not ani no where does it say that vader was stronger than the emp and luke couldn't kill the emp either, had ani not have turn he would have never gotten in good with the emp and had the chance that he had in return of the jedi.
As for the whole sifo dias thing...
Yes I belive he was a member of the jedi council that's a fact but I think he's dead and dooku used his name during or slighty after TPM to order the clone army.

[Swamprat_Jedi_Knight]

Consider ani/never became vader, who would have killed palpy?

Luke. Vader would not have been there to block Luke's saber from slicing through the old man in ROTJ.

Seriously though (I was just being smart), I realize that Luke wouldn't have been there in the first place, if he wasn't trying to confront his father.

Sorry, I felt compelled to make that point, that I disproved myself. Go figure.

[DblDwn]

That's the whole point is that the will of the Force is what lead Anakin to the dark side. It was something that had to happen in order for the prophecy to be complete.

[Raganork8]

Agreed 100%

[DblDwn]

Sidious sends the TF to the blockade of Naboo. While escaping Naboo the TF inflicts the damage on the ship that requires them to land on Tattooine. While on Tattooine, an outer world that no one goes to for vacation, they meet little slave boy Anakin. Anakin is strong with the Force and is the ONLY reason that they get the part that they need to leave Tattooine. Anakin destroys the droid control ship thus defeating the TF and freeing Naboo from the blockade. Anakin grows up to be a Jedi. But he starts having dreams, through the Force, which show his mother in pain. He disobeys orders from the Council and goes after his mother. After his mother dies in his arms, which never would have happened unless the Force had enabled him to feel her pain, he takes his first step towards the dark side. Eventually he joins with Sidious/Emperor and becomes a Dark Lord of the Sith. He then, in the end, kills Sidious/Emperor and brings balance back to the Force.

The balancing of the Force seems to me more of a destroying of the Sith, among other things like retaining identities after death and such, and the only way Anakin could ever have defeated Sidious, because the dark side is stronger and Sidious was more powerful, would have been to have joined the dark side and not just get that bonus power through the Force but also to allow Sidious to let his guard down because he never thought that Vader would betray him because of Vader's fear of him. That is why I think that Sidious is the one who inflicts Anakin with the wounds because that would cause the fear necessary for Sidious to never doubt that Vader would turn on him (but that is in another thread).

[bluemilk]

^not only what he said but also the jedi had seen their powers to use the force decrease which caused the force to be out of balance. You could say it was diluted through their arrogance and dogma.

However I have my doubts that it was Sidious that inflicted the wounds on Anakin. It could've been but I take that with a grain of salt until I get more evidence to support that theory.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by bluemilk@Jul 24 2003, 08:04 PM
However I have my doubts that it was Sidious that inflicted the wounds on Anakin. It could've been but I take that with a grain of salt until I get more evidence to support that theory.
Unfortunately that is all it is right now.........a theory. But I'm working on it. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Raganork8]

the balance of the force focus only around anakin.
The fact that he can use anger and hate but yet also surpress it is balance no jedi has baten a sith without dwelling on the darkside mind you.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by raganork8@Jul 28 2003, 06:57 AM
no jedi has baten a sith without dwelling on the darkside mind you.
I agree.

The act of killing someone is a result of hate/aggression/etc and those are traits of the dark side.

[mrnapier]

Don't forget that Qui Gon wasn't that young anymore and Darth Maul had been training his legs off all his life just to duel a Jedi! In the Book TPM by Terry Brooks is told that Qui Gon was almost 60 years old...

[Count Dookie]

Originally posted by mrnapier@Jul 31 2003, 01:51 PM
Don't forget that Qui Gon wasn't that young anymore... In the Book TPM by Terry Brooks is told that Qui Gon was almost 60 years old...
What? If he was almost sixty then I must have missed that pig flying across the screen during the movie... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif

[bodhisattva yoda]

why is that so hard to believe?

[PhantomX]

Well you do have to admit not many people who are sixty years old still have brown hair and smooth skin.

But perhaps he used the force to make himself look younger...

http://www.starwars.jp/character/image/qui...ui_gon_jinn.jpg (http://www.starwars.jp/character/image/qui_gon_jinn.jpg)

[DblDwn]

Maybe Jocasta Nu sells Avon in her spare time and she recommended that Qui-Gon try some kind of skin replenishing, moisturizer that would eliminate wrinkles and re-vitalize his skin style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[YodaFett82]

Originally posted by TK-007@Apr 28 2003, 06:28 PM
EU, and he never reached Knighthood, Qui-Gon's first apprentice was Xanatos.
According to the Episode I Visual Dictionary, Qui-Gon had three apprentices. The first, whom he trained to Knighthood, is not named.

Getting back on topic, I don't mind that Qui-Gon died. I don't think there was any reason for him to exist in the first place.