The Balance of the Force

[Tovor]

Hey folks, this warrants a revision of the old pre and post TPM debate on how Anakin brought balance to the Force, because the answer has been given. *I saw the new Star Wars kids cereal boxes, and on the back there is a board game for kids to play, following a path from child Anakin on Tatooine, to reach the end of the journey where he brings, as the final space states, balance to the Force. *The final space in the game, the goal and finish line, shows the pic of spirits Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda at the end of ROTJ. So I believe with certainty (as I always have), that it is Anakin's purging of the dark side and the return to the good side, and the killing of the Emperor, that brings about the balance of the Force; and the game showing Anakin's spirit reunited with Obi-Wan and Yoda after the fact seems to prove that.

Regardless of what I just stated, there are many who can't decide whether Anakin brought balance to the Force by helping the evil Sith emperor wipe out the Jedi Order, or by turning his back on the dark side to return to the good and save his son, the last hope of the Jedi. *So what say you? *Was the balance restored by Anakin wiping out the Jedi and leaving two Jedi and two Sith, or by destroying the powerful Sith who had disrupted the harmony of the Force when he defeated the Jedi and overran the galaxy with his evil?

[Tovor]

Here is the collection of replies I copied from the former new forum, followed by my latest reply. So after this, feel free to read and add to the previous discussion.

~~~Tov
__
catwmnjedi
Obi-Wan's Love Slave
Member
Joined: March 2002
*Posted: May 03 2002 - 12:53 *

I'm gonna side with the good on this one. *I think he ultimately brought balance by killing the Emperor and bringing himself out of the darkness by admitting he loved Luke (and Leia). *But I think the balance is restored not only with respect to the Jedi, but also "the force" in the sense of the entire galaxy, because the evil brought about by the Empire's reign was not ONLY due to Vader and Palpy... there was alot of evil in the hearts of other Imperial men as well. *The balance was restored to the whole galaxy when the Empire was defeated, not just the Jedi.

The reason I don't agree with the dark side balance theory is that the light side is supposed to be stronger, according to Yoda. *So the natural order of things is for the good to prevail, not evil to prevail equally with good. *Some evil has to exist in order to define good, but it isn't meant to ultimately dominate.

--------------
-- Cat *

------------------------------------------------------------* * * *

Grand Master of Tales
ToVoR
Member
Joined: March 2002
*Posted: May 03 2002 - 02:10 *

My take is that the Force itself is good by its very nature, and that the dark side is an abomination and abuse of the good of the Force. *The Jedi need to be at peace, passive, to interact with the Force, for the Force requires harmony and peace to be in balance. *When the Jedi is acting by anger or greed he is going against the nature of the Force and throws his own inner Force balance out of whack.

In TPM Qui-Gon sensed an tremor in the Force, something that was causing friction against the harmony of the Force. *Whether that was the untrained Anakin interacting with the Force without true knowledge of it, or the future arrival of Darth Maul that he sensed, something was contrasting the peaceful nature of the Force. *Impending evil use of the Force, a violation of the nature of the peaceful Force, was sensed by Qui-Gon like ripples in a disrupted pond. *The good user of the Force interacts with it and flows with it, in harmony; while dark side users, going against the nature of the "goodness" of the Force, disrupted it and sent out ominous ripples. *Lucas has stated that at the time of TPM, both Yoda and Mace Windu had already begun to sense that the Force was becoming unbalanced by a growing evil entity. *While they did not detect Darth Sideous' presence on Coruscant, or Sideous/Palpatine's dark side presence even beside them, they still detected that the Force was becoming unbalanced by something unknown. *I think if Yoda and Windu's discussion at Qui-Gon's funeral, the "Always two there are..." revelation, had included their understanding that it was the resurgence of the Sith that had caused the unbalance they had previously sensed, we would have a better understanding of GL's direction regarding the "balance" plotline. *So my believe is that if the return of the Sith (return to power, out of hiding) was the cause of the unbalance in the Force, then it was Anakin's destruction of the Sith Master--who caused the imbalance--that restored it.

So with that believe, I say that once Palpatine rose to true power as Emperor and destroyed the keepers of good and peace, the Force was completely and overwhelmingly out of balance, with only Dark Side imbalance permeating the galaxy.

With the entire galaxy out of balance with the Force due to the Emperor's evil, and the evil hearts of those who worked for him, as you said Cat, it was Luke's training on Dagobah that caused a calming ripple of good and peace in the middle of the raging imbalance of the Force in the galaxy. *It was that calm spot in the middle of a storm that alerted the Emperor in TESB to Luke's training and rising threat to Palpatine. *Now why didn't Obi-Wan's existance cause such a disruption to the imbalanced Force to alert the emperor? *I don't know, except that the hermit Kenobi was not using the Force to a great degree on Tatooine to be sensed by the emperor. *Despite Vader's sensation of Kenobi on the Death Star due to familarity, it was only Luke's training with Yoda, and his rising abilities, that caused ripples in the imbalanced Force big enough for Vader and the emperor to sense.

In summary, in TPM the Force had been in balance due to the Jedi stemming evil and working for peace, and the rise of the "extinct" Sith was causing an imbalance. *At the end of Episode III, the Force will be in complete disruption and imbalance. *In Episode V with the Force in imbalance, it was the rise of the "extinct" Jedi that was causing a growing balance. *So when Anakin drove the dark side from his own free will and killed the ultimate evil, he restored balance by eliminating the cause of the imbalance (which I think was not Vader per se, but the Sith and the dark side that controlled Vader).

Cat, even though I agree that the evil hearts of the imperials benefited by the everpresent imbalance, I don't feel that they were part of the imbalance. *For if they were, then it would have been Lando Calrissian and the rebel fighter pilots that defeated the Death Star and the imperial fleet who restored the balance to the Force.

***Some evil has to exist in order to define good, but it isn't meant to ultimately dominate.*** *

I agree with that. *It would explain why God lets Satan roam the world committing evil, so that people will recognize God's good over the everpresent darkness. *But I really don't want this to turn into a sermon or a religious discussion, so that's all I have to say about that.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

catwmnjedi
Obi-Wan's Love Slave
Member
Joined: March 2002
*Posted: May 03 2002 - 11:15 *

Yeah, how dare us talk about religion... what was I thinking? *

Good points, Tov. *There's another think that bothers me in the OT about all this, besides the Emperor not feeling Kenobi still. *In ANH, when they are blowing up Alderaan, Vader is holding his own daughter against him, and he doesn't notice? *He discovers Luke is his son, why not Leia until Luke thinks about her in ROTJ? *Because she isn't aware of the force yet? *What do you think? *I know it's straying a little from your original topic...

--------------
-- Cat *

------------------------------------------------------------
*
Grand Master of Tales
ToVoR
Member
Joined: March 2002
*Posted: May 04 2002 - 12:06 *

Quote *
***In ANH, when they are blowing up Alderaan, Vader is holding his own daughter against him, and he doesn't notice? *He discovers Luke is his son, why not Leia until Luke thinks about her in ROTJ? *Because she isn't aware of the force yet?***

A good question. *In fact, three and a half years ago, when I first discovered Jedinet, one of the very first topics I posted in was that very subject.

Leia was not aware of her Force potential, so her midichlorians were not leading her to interact with the Force. *Thus, there was no Force activity for Vader to sense. *I don't think Force users have a constant "Force-signature", like a body scent to be smelt at all times in that person's presence. *But rather, when the person uses the Force, as Kenobi surely was as soon as he got on the Death Star, then the signature of that Force-use is what the other one senses. *Vader did not sense Luke on the Death Star, but he detected Luke's Force-use in the DS trench, and then recognized it when he was tracking him in Cloud City, as Luke recognized his.

If Leia had been secretely Force-trained, Vader more than likely would have sensed her powers as soon as he boarded the Tantive V, and he certainly would have sensed her powers had she had any to use on the DS.

Okeyday, lets move along back to the original topic... *


------------------------------------------------------------
* * * *
vibroblade
Dr. Mod
Moderator
Joined: March 2002
*Posted: May 04 2002 - 10:49 *

Sorry Tov, I got another point on the Leia issue before you go back to topic.

Many people make an erroneous assumption that the purge of the Jedi Knights somehow bereft the SW universe of Force users and Force sensitives. This simply isn't true. It is very fair to assume that there continued to be many in the SW universe that could conceivably develop into Jedi if they were trained. Actually, it is absolutely certain that was so. Vader may have sensed Leia's Force potential but just never commented on it. Why should he? I'm sure he encountered many that had the potential for Force use over the years.

As for him not recognizing his daughter, I think that's easy to understand. He obviously didn't know he had any children until after the destruction of the DS. It wouldn't have taken a genius to deduce that someone named "Luke Skywalker", who has Force potential, travels in the company of OB1, and was living on *Tattooine must be Vader's son. When one finds they have one child they never expected to have, they certainly aren't going to go looking for a second one. I mean, what would be the odds?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clara
The great and almighty...
Member
Joined: April 2002
*Posted: May 04 2002 - 9:34 *

My belief is that Anakin brought balance when there were two evil (Anakin and the Emperor), and two good (Luke and Yoda). I can't add Leia to the good list, because she didn't begin her Jedi training until a few years after the death of Anakin and the Emperor, leaving the galaxy with only the good.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* * *
Grand Master of Tales
ToVoR
Member
Joined: March 2002
*Posted: May 06 2002 - 12:51 *

S'alright, Vibe. *You said you were dying for deep Star Wars discussion, so I'll let you hold us from the main topic for now. =)
Quote *
***It is very fair to assume that there continued to be many in the SW universe that could conceivably develop into Jedi if they were trained. Actually, it is absolutely certain that was so. Vader may have sensed Leia's Force potential but just never commented on it. Why should he? I'm sure he encountered many that had the potential for Force use over the years.***

I absolutely agree with that. *According to Obi-Wan in ANH, all living things were connected to the Force. *But according to me and those who agree, only those who are trained to use it (those with high enough midichlorian counts) can access the Force and affect it. *In Episode III, when all Jedi were killed and all training grounds, libraries, and information on their ways were destroyed, it was the physical end of the Jedi (save Obi and Yoda) but it did not stop life itself from churning out babies with high midi counts. *Its just that thanks to Vader and Sideous there was no on left to develope those life form's Force potential. *Like I said after TPM, on why the Jedi Council never detected Sideous on Coruscant or next to them on the ship to Naboo, there were millions and millions of life forms with their own spirit auras, so why would they be able to sense one particular one (or Vader sense Obi-Wan on Tatooine at beginning of ANH--too far away)? *Yoda and Mace did not detect Sideous on Naboo because he did not use his powers in their presence, but Vader sensed Obi-Wan on the Death Star because he was using his.

------------------------------------------------------------

Teta
Member
Joined: May 2002
*Posted: May 07 2002 - 10:33 *

OK..here's one for ya...why doesn't Qui-gon disappear? Is it b/c he was so unorthodox? And if he was, if being too attuned to the "living force" rather than the other Force, was wrong...if Qui-Gon was wrong to pick up "another pathetic life form" (ie nakin), he was right also. He may have started the troublein one sense by pickingup Anakin, but he ended it oo. Palpy would have risen nomatter what, but it was Anakin's reproducing, Lukem who brought him down. The bad seed generated the good. You'd never have had the galxy fall..but then gain, maybe paly could have overthrown the Republic w/o Vader. In which case luke's coming along is a blessing.

[Tovor]

Hey Teta, welcome! *Regarding Qui-Gon, Lucas has said in many interviews that the vanishing is a trick that Kenobi and Yoda learn between Episode III and IV, and that it will be discussed later in the new trilogy. *So as far as canon goes, no other Jedi but Ben, Yoda, and later Anakin (with spiritual help?) manage to become one with the Force.

Regarding the Palpy's rise to evil and how Anakin helped in that, I agree that Palpatine was going to become the emperor regardless of Vader's help. *My belief is the prophesy stated that the balance would be restored to the Force when a valiant Jedi knight of humble origin from a desert world rose up to destroy the cause of the imbalance, the future Sith emperor. *It was not Anakin's destiny to become Vader, but it was his destiny to be the one to restore the balance at the end. *That he inadvertantly became the one to help Palpatine wreck the balance was not part of the plan, but it was the design of the living Force that after 20 years of evil and servitude to Palpatine, that he would return to the good side and fulfill the prophecy anyway.

Check this out, my prediction:
Palpatine learns about the prophesy and realizes that Anakin is the chosen one to destroy the future imbalance. *Thus he does not tempt and seduce Anakin to the dark side simply because he needs his incredible powers; no, he turns him to the Sith in order to ensure that the fulfillment in the future never occurs and the prophesy can never come true. *He destroys the good within Anakin and turns him to bad to keep him in check and make sure he can't be a threat to him. *So Anakin as Vader helps Palpatine for 20 years do what Palpy was bound to do anyway, but with the use of Luke, the living Force that Qui-Gon had believed in enabled the Chosen One to return to the good side and fulfill what he was destined to do all along.

[James]

No, no, no. All this is not right. The prophesy states that Anakin will bring balance to the force, but not before darkness and upheaval. At the end of ROTJ, Obi, Yoda and Anakin all stand together at peace.

That is balance. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/exclamation.gif *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/exclamation.gif *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/exclamation.gif

[PadméAmidalaNaberrie]

Yes Darth James you are quite right.
The Jedi do think that Anakin will be very good at using the good side of the force before he turns to the dark side.

[BevelLemelisk]

Balance was restored(I beleive) when the Emporor was killed...he's the Dark Lord through the entire mess and Yoda tells Windu that only the Dark Lord knows of their diminishing powers. If their powers are diminishing then how could killing alll but two of the jedi bring balance...It appears to already have been out of balance. I mean take every sith that is killed...How many Jedi does it take to defeat/kill. (Even Palpy...I count two...Luke, Anakin...) Therefore the Force seems to be out of balnce...not numerically but as in how well the jedi are able to utilize it. Well that's all I got so far. I'm new to the boards and I'll be posting more as I can.

[Vyndim]

Partially borrowing this information from another forum:
I believe Anakin does fullfill the prophecy, however not as the jedi intended. I mean, look in Episode II, Yoda and Mace Windu state that the Jedi have become arrogant etc... Well they believe Anakin can be bring balance, well he does. If Anakin had not killed the other jedi as he did, wouldn't the other jedi turn out to be corrupted aswell with them being arrogant and having traits of the darkside? The jedi obviously had forgotten what their purpose was and the Force thought they needed a reminder. However, they had to ensure Anakin was able to take out the darkside as well when the time came. Thus Anakin fullfilled the prophecy by killing all but two of the Jedi, and in the end he also destroyed the last Sith. Which leads to a new begining for the Jedi were hopefully they will be reminded and not repeat the mistakes of the past.

[BL-17]

So, technically, if there was to be balance in the Force, wouldn't the Sith win? There were a significant amount of Jedi compared to Sith and there always was. Does balance mean that evil is totally vanquished?

[Vyndim]

Okay well, perhapes the plan was to start a clean slate. Wipe out all the jedi except one(luke), in which that one could rekindle the Jedi order and recreate what once was. By doing this, balanced was acheived since there was no longer a good or evil as there was no more need for either, there was simply a true jedi. I have not read 7, 8 , or 9 so I might be missing something.

[Brian]

Question referring to sensing the Force:

This may have been answered before, but I just joined a couple of weeks ago.

How did Darth Maul/Sidious know that the Jedi where on Tattoine in TPM. I thought that the people aboard the Naboo ship where instructed to send no transmissions. Did Maul and Sidious detect the Jedi using the Force?

Again, sorry if this question has already been answered and is not on the correct thread.

[Vyndim]

Well perhapes maul/sidious didn't use the force to find them on tatooine...I mean, Sidious was helping the trade federation with the blockade. It seems logical that he would be watching the movements of the Queen. I'm sure he had others ways of monitoring her without use of the force.

[Brian]

True enough, but how did they know where they were? In almost all other cases of tracking ships/people in the SW saga, GL revealed how this was done (i.e. Obi-Wan tracking Jango in AOTC, Boba tracking the MF in TESB, etc.).

I have not read any of the novels, scrap books, comics, original scripts, etc. I have only watched the movies and discussed on message boards and inferred information from them. Keep this in mind.

[Vyndim]

Sure, it was revealed that tracking devices were implanted on ships, but thats the conventional way of doing things. Sidious considers himself far above conventional weaponry and devices for that matter. Who knows what kind of devious gadgets he has at his disposal. Or perhapes it was just something that GL intended to be taken for granted that Sidious/Maul would be following the Jedi and the Queen.

[Jedi Luke]

Hi, I'm new here so go easy on me!! Anyway, going back to the original topic of Anakin and the balance of the force. I think that it's all do with destiny. The theory that he brings balance to the force by reducing the number of Jedi to the number of Sith (Yoda, Obi-Wan & Sidious, Vader)... this is highly possible. It's also possible that by destroying the Emperor in ROTJ he brings the force back into balance.

Some would then argue however, that at the end of ROTJ, one Jedi exists and no Sith, and how is this balance? It all rather depends on the definition of balance. Also, Luke could be considered a one man balancing act with equal parts of light and dark. Personally I like this theory.

Also, without Luke, Vader would never have killed the Emperor. It was Luke who turned him back to the light side, which enabled Anakin to destroy Sidious. It was also Luke who refused to strike down his father and join the Emperor. I think this makes Luke a pretty powerful Jedi, because he resisted the dark side when Anakin couldn't.

Also, if we believe what we are told in TPM, Anakin was born by the will of the force. It's possible that the force knew of the evil that would be bestowed on the galaxy by Sidious and created Anakin to turn things around. He went off the path for a while, but came good in the end! Also I think the reason Luke is so powerful is because he is mixture of a person born purely of the force (Anakin) and someone who is completely unrelated in the force (Padme).

In a way, it comes down to destiny. Luke saved Vader from the dark side to vanquish the Emperor. It was Lukes destiny to save his father. It was Vader's destiny to have Luke and kill the Emperor. One cannot happen without the other. In a sense, Anakin is the chosen one and he saves the galaxy by bringing Luke into the world. Because without Luke, Vader would never have come back to the good side to kill the Emperor.

Sorry for the long post. Let me know what you think.

[BL-17]

The one man balancing act could make sense. I believe it's 20 years or more that after ROTJ, Luke does turn to the Dark Side.

[Vyndim]

Is Luke turning to the Dark Side part of the EU? *I was under the impression he had restarted the Jedi order, of couse I have not read the novilization of 7, 8, or 9 so I'm a bit uneducated on this subject.

[looceefir]

It's a brief thing IIRC and he turns back soon enough.

[Senator Theant]

I dont mean to sound offensive or even close-minded, but I think it would be fair to other users and the Star Wars galaxy in general to regard EU stuff as, simply, expanded universe. I have a feeling that Lucas didnt intend to convey to the audience that the death of Palpatine in ROTJ was only one of a great many attempts to destroy the essence of evil. Or that Luke would make the EXACT mistakes of his father and fall from grace. The works that constitute the SW EU are respectable and legit in their own right, that I am completely convinced of. I have no beef with EU works or EU fans. This I cant stress highly enough, so please dont attack me.

My point is that though Anakin restored significant balance to the force by perpetuating the murder of Palpatine, he was only finishing up the job he started some 20-odd years ago. In these prequels, Lucas is showing us exactly how the Jedi Council and the Republic in general functioned prior the "Great Awakening". Why do you think we hear less of Yoda's one-liners and more of inflated doctrine concerning the "Jedi insitution"? User Vyndim stressed the fact that Yoda and Mace in AOTC concede their growing inability to be intune with the Force. The Jedis (and even the older ones) are becoming increasingly arrogant and are losing their true sense of the Force. This is the state of the body of the Jedi Order at the time. It is clogged by arrogant-Jedi cellulite and polluted by worldly-greed toxins. It comes Anakin to cleanse the body, and return it to its purest form, which is embodied in Yoda. Obi Wan's survival of the Purges must be related to the Master-Apprentice rule mentioned in TPM. This was Anakin's first goal, I believe. Cleanse the body.

The rise in power of Evil was anticipated as well by the Force. Palpatine must be killed and balance could once again prevail, suggesting that the definition of balance is the sole dominance of a good side without a formidable evil opposition. The Force ensured balance by the births of Luke and Leia, two safeguards in which the doctrine of the Force (not the Jedi, mind you) would continue to thrive. Once Palpatine was thrown into the chasm of light, Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by completing the two actions necessary in order to achieve balance: rid evil and ensure peace. Thats my take on the films and also my reason for the passion I have for Star Wars. Please dont eat me for it.

[Vyndim]

Very well said Senator. I agree with you on your stance of the EU. While I respect it and I do appreciate it, but Star Wars is mostly about the movies for me aswell. However, who knows in the future it might be the only thing we have left, the EU that is... Also, I totally agree with your thoughts on balance brought to the Froce, I couldn't have worded it better myself.

[Senator Theant]

I have nothing but admiration for the authors that spend their time compiling what they can in order to provide fans with a comprehensive story-telling experience. However, I feel sad also that Lucas didnt take such an active role in plotting out the stories beyond the films . . .

I think by now we are all a little skepitcal of Lucas' story telling abilities, while completely LOVING his imagination. Thanks God for these forums and Peter Jackson or alot of us woud just simply EXPLODE for all the anticipation.

[lmg1352001]

Great thoughts guys....Vyndim,Senator Theant.

But you know what the Expanded Universe is for...to explain all the loop holes that GL I think couldn't even answer. *It was probably hard to develop a story that he picked up with EP 4,5,6.
Now he has to go back retrack his footsteps...

This subject seems to be falling off the original thread...

We must refocus......think,do not feel

Will meditate on this....

[Senator Theant]

I thought it was kinda necessary to raise that opinion esp because I know I have a hard time acceptin the above mentioned facts. I also thought it was necessary because certain facts of the EU detract from the overall theme of the films, and that is why we have gathered here in the first place is it not, to discuss the trends and apparent themes of the Star Wars saga? Thats my opinion.

I hoped that I would ignite discussion with my seemingly controversial remarks. I mean, I have encountered many an ardent follower of the EU who would much prefer the literary works over the OT. I was hoping to encouter a few so that we would have the opportunoty to discuss soemthing that I am very passionate about. Note the wording in my oringinal post is very careful around people's toes. I am not a bigot and/or a zealot and will discuss and consider every argument set out. Thats the purpose behind my remarks.

I have to admit that I am no expert on the EU so for those of you who feel that I am an expert on such matters are terribly mistaken; I must also admit that herein lies my downfall. But while discussing a matter such as the balance of the force, what else can we depend on? I feel as if--and feel obliged to prove me wrong--that the authors of the EU have distorted certain truths of the Star Wars saga in order to achieve cheap thrills for the readers. This does not apply to all authors or all works. Just an over-generalization for the purpose of understanding my point of view. Luke falls to the dark side? Very suspenseful I must admit. Palpatine reincarnated? Perfect way to rally more Star Wars fans to their cause. Like I said, the EU is perfect and legit in their own right and are relevant in a great many discussions. Just not this one. Thats the intended message.

As for the topic at hand, my remarks in my original post sumarize best my sentiment in the topic. And for discussional purposes, I will commit an act of plagarism (I had waited good and long for the original user to post in this forum--after beign advised to do so--but seeing as she/he has not, I will proceed). I read in another forum by another user that they believe Anakin achieved balance in the force as he pursuse his goal of "ending death and suffering", as stated in AOTC. Is Lucas playing on the fact that Obi Wan and Yoda as well as Anakin, himself, will "live" beyond living in the form of holographic apparitions? I mean, it was Obi Wan in this state of "living" who furthered Luke's training. And we all know Luke's role in the destruction of evil forever. And seeing as we did not see handfuls of Jedi evaporate into thin air in the battle on Geonosis, I would think that Lucas is obligated to explain this. Is it that Anakin achieves balance by means of cleansing the Order AND destroying evil AND securing life after death?

Perhaps he does . . . .





PS:If you arent recieving the same Biblical implications as I am then perhaps you should consider this
PPS: Lord have mercy, whats not to LOVE in this saga!
PPPS: To the poster of the above theory, you are due the credit you deserve. If you are reading this, please reply. We are in need of your wisdom!
PPPPS: The last paragraph was, of course, brought to you by My Opinion.

[Darth Threat]

Balance would be brought by destroying the Sith rule of the galaxy. As such after rewatching ROTJ I change my mind and think that not Anakin but Luke brings blance. I know, Lucas said so but he had the publicity of the prquels to look after when saying that. When Anakin brings balance by destroying the emperor it makes no sense, because the emperor would have died anyway three minutes later when Lando blew up the Death Star. Would that make Lando the Chosen One ?Only Luke managed to destroy the Sith rule by forcing Vader to turn and withstand the emperor by choosing not to fight him. Just my opinion though.

[Vyndim]

Originally posted by Darth Threat@June 09 2002 - 03:29
Balance would be brought by destroying the Sith rule of the galaxy. As such after rewatching ROTJ I change my mind and think that not Anakin but Luke brings blance. I know, Lucas said so but he had the publicity of the prquels to look after when saying that. When Anakin brings balance by destroying the emperor it makes no sense, because the emperor would have died anyway three minutes later when Lando blew up the Death Star. Would that make Lando the Chosen One ?Only Luke managed to destroy the Sith rule by forcing Vader to turn and withstand the emperor by choosing not to fight him. Just my opinion though.
<span style="color:000070">I disagree. *I don't think Luke was the chosen. *However, Luke did play role in Anakin's fullfillment of the prophecy. I mean, Anakin would not have redeemed himself had he not been trying to save his son. *And the Emporer might not have died. *If you notice most people escaped the destruction of the second Death Star.(including Luke) *And who knows, maybe if the Emporer hadn't died and by some twist of fate, Lando would not have destroyed the Death Star. *And if the only thing the Chosen One was supposed to do is destroy the Sith, that could have been done before even the jedi purge, no I believe there is more to the prophecy than just the destruction of the Sith.</span>

[Senator Theant]

Yes I agree with Vyndium.

If Luke is indeed the chosen one as Darth Theat has suggested, then there is no point for lucas to make the prequel trilogy. The entire series itself is the story of the fulfillment of the prophecy, which finally brings about the peace throughout the galaxy. It would be pointless to build up all this hype in the prequels only to dispel it once Luke defies the emperor.

Lando being the chosen one is ridiculous because, as Vyndium said, the destruction of the Death Star was not the point of ROTJ, however symbolic. When Palpatine died the end of the empire seems marked (disregarding EU literature), so the destruction of the Death Star would only serve as icing on the cake. IF Palpatine would have lived, there exists no purpose to have the Death STar blow up anyway. I dont know . . . i think its more about filmaking than anything else. Thats my opinion. What do you think?

[longingfor2005]

Originally posted by Vyndim@May 25 2002 - 01:48
Okay well, perhapes the plan was to start a clean slate. *Wipe out all the jedi except one(luke), in which that one could rekindle the Jedi order and recreate what once was. *By doing this, balanced was acheived since there was no longer a good or evil as there was no more need for either, there was simply a true jedi. *I have not read 7, 8 , or 9 so I might be missing something.
I have but a few things to say. The first is i admit i am not a resource on EU (i have read a little, its enjoyable but i only see it as a big fanfic and not continuity, excluding SOTE wich was thought up by GL of course) but i was not aware that 7 8 and 9 had ben released in novel form! IS this true? If so what are the titles names?


Another thing. I admit that the Dark Empire story was truly a great story but does anyone else feel that by having the emperor still alive and Luke turning to the dark side hurt ROTJ, i mean it had Luke give in to the darkside when his great struggle in ROTJwas one of the most important plot points was him resisting it! And bringing the emperor back cheapened Vaders sacrafice and if PT has shown us anything its that Vader was THE most important person in the STAR WARS stories, maybe not always the hero but still the most important character (Luke following right behind him of course)

Also i think most EU novelists out there write Han's character very poorly.


As for my opinon on the prophecy of Balance would have to be him eradicating Sidious, Also think that there may be some merit in believing that the prophecy included the extermination of the JEdi order as well. We clearly see in AOTC that the Jedi order is as arrogant and complacent and i dare say even as corrupt as the senate. Maybe it was Vaders destiny to tear down this rotting institution so that it could be rebuilt stronger then it had previously been. Also when Anakin died after killing the emperor that finished of the order of the sith because there is neither a master nor an apprentice to continue it.

[Vyndim]

Originally posted by longingfor2005@June 10 2002 - 22:55
Also when Anakin died after killing the emperor that finished of the order of the sith because there is neither a master nor an apprentice to continue it.
<span style="color:000070">I've got a question to that. Is Anakin stilled considered a Sith after he kills the Emporer? He killed the Emporer to save his son, isn't that his redemption? Was Anakin's death neccisary for him to complete the prophecy and bring balance to the force? Because wouldn't he not be a Sith once he decides to save his son? Of course, this could just be a matter of opinion.</span>

[Senator Theant]

I believe in effect Vader died once he embraced the good side of the force and killed the emperor. In one move, Anakin ended the Two Sith Rule by eliminating Vader and Sidious. I dont believe that Anakin's death was necessary, yet cruelly the will of the force might have subjected Anakin to the death that he received. He did join the Dark Side and wipe out millions of inncent people (ala Alderaan, among his exploits), so he might have been in a way punished for that. Of course, we all know that comes back as an apparition so the force didnt necessarily abandon his body, perhaps just disregarded it. My opinion, of course.

[Tovor]

I think this thread needs to be resurrected and remembered.

[Mann]

okay, well, I think that Killing the Emperor brings the Light side back to power and balances the struggle between the two.

[Senator Theant]

Seriously, hey Tovor . . .

Is there like an "archive" feature on this website to place the best discussions. I mean, Ive seen certain threads disappear when inactive for a long while. And this topic is guaranteed to come up again when Ep III nears its release date. So is there?

[Tovor]

Good question. In the old JN forum Teek archived older threads, and at one point told us to vote on which ones should be saved for later reopening. I'll check into it and get back to you on it. I vaguely remember one of the other mods asking about it once before, so give me some time to ask around about it.

[JediBendu]

Do you think the 'balance' may also have something to do with retaining your identity after death?

[Tovor]

Before, during and after seeing AOTC I never considered such a thing. *But a few days ago someone on another thread, and I don't remember which one or whom, said something that made me think of that. *That poster (maybe you?) remarked on Yoda's surprise upon hearing Qui-Gon's voice that he had kept his identity after his death, and that maybe it was those closest to Anakin who were affected that way, as if he were some kind of life-preserving messiah. *The theory then is that it was after hearing Jinn's voice that Yoda began meditating on how to maintain his identity after death via his contact with Anakin.

??? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif *
Before TPM came out, GL said that the prequels would change the way we look at the OT. *I have seen changes so far in the way I look at the OT based on the prequels, but the Anakin/messiah aspect, even despite his being called the chosen one (which could mean chosen by the Force for any number of tasks), is not what I was ever expecting. *I have been discussing, debating, and contemplating issues on these boards since 8 months before TPM came out, and I have prided myself in being able to see deeper into the story than the average (non die-hard) fan, and in putting together clues in the story that require deep thinking and theorizing. *But, and I am surprised by this...I did not make any connection whatsoever to Qui-Gon's voice and Anakin's "I will even learn to stop people from dying" line until somebody in the forum mentioned it. *Amazing how we learn from each other, hmm?

I define balance in the Force as I stated it in my earlier posts, that the rise of the Sith was throwing the peaceful harmony of the Force out of balance and that it would take somebody of divine choice to take down that evil entity to restore the balance of a non-Sith-disrupted Force. *What that has to do with people being able to retain their identities (their souls?) after death is still a mystery to me, and despite all my contemplation and open-mindedness I don't see how GL will explain it adequately in the movies. *If that is after all what GL and the Star Wars series is revealing to us, I will still watch Ep. III and later IV, V, and VI with an open mind...but I still think and prefer that the balance of the Force refers to the overall Force rather than the immortality of human and alien souls.

[JediBendu]

ya - I would tend to agree. But we're looking at it from 3 years away, what isn't obvious to us now could be glaringly obvious in the future.
Perhaps the prophecy is wrong? Maybe that'll be the point of ep3 - that the Jedi allowed the instrument of the destruction into their midst based on a thousand year old prophecy.
If GL pulls off explaining it (which I have no doubt he will) it'll be the highlight of the film for me. :)

[vodo]

Vader didnt bring balance to the force it was luke who did it.
But still I cant belive that he destroyed the dark side he couldnt because there can be no light it there is no dark.[COLOR=green]<('_')> style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

[darthwicker]

Do the jedi know more of the prophecy than just that a chosen one will bring balance to the force?
Is the prophecy an ancient jedi prophecy or a much older one from an unknown source?
Why do the jedi assume that the prophecy relates to how the force occurs and exists to them?
How long has the force been out of balance if a chosen one is needed to restore it?
Do the jedi know what the chosen one must do in order to bring balance to the force?

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by vodo bass@Sep 10 2002, 03:00 PM
Vader didnt bring balance to the force it was luke who did it.
But still I cant belive that he destroyed the dark side he couldnt because there can be no light it there is no dark.[COLOR=green]<('_')> style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif
No it was Anakin, Luke part in bringing balance back to the force is that he redeemed his father, Anakin brought balance back to the force by deystroying the Sith. At least that's what GL said. :0

The rest of what you said is just confusing. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[JediBendu]

This is just a bit of wild speculation, but what if the Balance is refering to the physical and (dare I say it) spiritual realm? Consider:

The Force surrounds, penetrates and binds the universe. The midichlorians are attune to it and by way of symbiosis communicates the Force's will.
The Force may think it's in trouble (I use 'think' as a being exercising free will), a new disease of Sith is rising. It needs a 'super' jedi (with the highest count of midichlorians in any lifeform) to give it a boost when the being dies and enters a realm that pervades the entire universe. Balance could also mean Stability. Stability of the universe through stability the Force.

or something...

[Darth Vegas]

Doesn't sound to wild to me, sounds pretty right on. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Tovor]

The guy who originally opened this thread usually starts good discussions, so I'm bumping this up to remind everyone of it.

[Lord Laviathan]

Well in my opinon Anakin dies in the third episode giving birth to Darth Vader. It was Vader that helped the Emperor track down the Jedi and destroy them. It was in ROTJ that Anakin destroyed Vader and saved his son the last of the Jedi then destroyed the Emperor and thus bringing balance back to the Force. He was the Chosen One even though his life is very tragic.

[Krogenar]

If 'The Force' is an energy field that permeates the entire universe, and is influenced by living beings, then the prophecy could be redefined as 'bringing balance to the Universe'. In that sense, Anakin performed admirably.

In AOTC, we see a Galactic Republic that is becoming fat, dumb and happy. A quote comes to mind, from Thomas Jefferson:

"The Tree of Liberty must sometimes be watered by the blood of tyrants and patriots." (paraphrased)

By the time we get to ROTJ, we have the beginnings of a new Jedi Order, and a 'New Republic' in which the price of liberty is fresh in their minds. Everything is renewed and fresh. The universe needed an enema, and Anakin provided it.

[Tovor]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif Bumping for the sake of worthiness. Bumpies, bumpies, to the top of the page.


Ease down T'bone...it ain't that kind of "bumpies". style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Jabba the Hutt on a tricycle]

I know it's been covered before, but if Vader brings balance to the force by killing the Emp, surly the force is out of balance because Luke, and Leia exist but there is no Sith/bad guys??? There isn't a balance...

[JediBendu]

OMG!!!

Krogenar posted in a star wars thread! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif

where was I for that!?!?! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dictator.gif

[frootylupes]

Originally posted by Jabba the Hutt on a tricycle@Feb 5 2004, 12:59 PM
I know it's been covered before, but if Vader brings balance to the force by killing the Emp, surly the force is out of balance because Luke, and Leia exist but there is no Sith/bad guys??? There isn't a balance...
makes sence...from a certain point of view.

[badjedi]

here's my two cents...anakin brings balance to the force by killing the emperor

(duh). the emperor was like a superman of force users. we know this because

he was able to fool the jedi. the force created anakin to do exactly what he did.

the emperor would have risen to power with or without anankin's help, dooku

would've done just as well i imagine. anakin never could've beaten the

emperor one on one so the only way to destroy him was to get close to him.

this was not anakin's plan obviously but it was the will of the force. if you think

about it, if you kill someone your killing their midiclorians to arent you? if that

is the case then maybe the midiclorians created anakin to protect themselves in

a way.(just a wild theory, bare with me.) the midi's knew that in such a short

time no one could be created to compete with the eventual emperor, but they

created someone who was strong enough to be noticed by the emperor(!) and

even to be desired by the emperor. if my theory makes any sense, which it

may not, then maybe anakin is like a bomb wrapped in a bright shiny package

that the emperor just had to have and so he did what anyone would do, he

grabbed the shiny package and kept it for himself. so to make some small

amount of sense here what im trying to say in this very specualtive theory of

mine is that anakin was like an ultimate weapon created by the midi's or the

force. the emporer knew ani was the ultimate weapon and so he had to have

him. the midi's or force, whichever you prefer, knew the emperor would feel

this way, and they also knew that at some point he would turn on the emporer.

i dont know how much of this makes sense but i guess some of it does, dare i

say....from a certain point of view.

[Whitesaber]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>if that

is the case then maybe the midiclorians created anakin to protect themselves in

a way.[/b][/quote]

Well, I never took it as the midichlorians created the Force or are the Force themselves. The Force is still the mysterious "energy field created by all living things." The midichlorians, as Qui-gon put it, "tell us the will of the Force." And without them "we would have no knowledge of the Force..." In addition, he told Anakin, "When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speak to you..." The midichlorians don't create or wield the Force, they're sort of "transmitters" if you will. As with all things, the more of these little transmitters you have, the better reception you get and the greater quality and control you get. Therefore, I don't think the midichlorians could even think about "protecting" themselves by creating the Chosen One any more than a bacterial infection can run and hide from the cough medicine.

[Javen]

I believe without a shadow of a doubt, that Anakin is following the same path as Qui-gon and that is why they are so connected. I was thinking about this after watching TPM and AOTC again. This is just merely my opinion but it makes sense, so let me explain.

The Jedi Council is the cosmic force, sitting around in their chambers while the galaxy begins to crumble. After Qui-Gon's death, the living force takes the step not as large of a step as it might seem to the dark side, with Dooku becoming fed up with the complacency of the council and leaving on a trip that leads him to Palpatine, who is of course a figure of action and reformation.

Anakin has a lot of Qui-Gon in him, and sometime in Episode III he follows the path of Qui-Gon's master Dooku and replaces him as Palpatine's apprentice. Anakin is following the living force, but in such a complete way as to deny the cosmic force and be led to evil. Anakin/Vader becomes a tool of action for Palpatine, letting Palpatine do the planning. In the end, however, he turns on the Emperor and saves his son he takes the living force back to the light side again. Through Anakin's action of saving Luke, Anakin brings the living and cosmic forces into balance, a balance which, after Anakin's death, lives on embodied in Luke. Luke is part Vader, tempered by Yoda and Ben... he's started down the dark path very briefly in ROTJ when he cuts off his father's hand, but the cosmic force is always in his mind as he thinks about the need for control and refuses to fight.

Balance is achieved when a person can act in the moment without losing sight of the larger importance. The living force by itself is amoral, it trusts feelings and simply acts in the moment, and thus is easily led to evil. The cosmic force by itself is incapable of any real independent action, it simply sits around thinking philosophical thoughts while the world crumbles. Anakin brings balance by modifying the living force in himself to consider the greater good and escape the grip of Palpatine... and by saving his son, who has shown himself capable of maintaining a grip on the cosmic force while still using the living force to act in the moment.

[JediBendu]

Originally posted by Whitesaber+Feb 8 2004, 04:15 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Whitesaber @ Feb 8 2004, 04:15 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> Well, I never took it as the midichlorians created the Force or are the Force themselves. [/b]
I think badjedi was refering to the mids creating Anakin, not the Force.

<!--QuoteBegin-badjedi@Feb 8 2004@ 11:05 AM
the midi's knew that in such a short time no one could be created to compete with the eventual emperor, but they created someone who was strong enough to be noticed by the emperor(!) [/quote]

interesting line of thought
you could also argue that the mids created the emperor as well - as an instrument to bring about the jedi's downfall. It's pretty clear that the Jedi have become just as arrogant and complacent as the bureaucracy they're pledged to serve. If the mids created anakin just to kill the emperor, the they could also have created the emperor just to kill the jedi.

[badjedi]

the main point i was trying to make in my last post was that anakin followed his

destiny too a tee. he was always supposed to turn bad. no jedi had been

able to stop palpatine, they could never get close enough and if they could they

weren't powerful enough. he was a good hearted person to start with, but

also weak enough that the emporer could manipulate him and turn him to the

dark side of the force. also this weakness in his character is what allowed

him to fall in love with padme and create luke who is the reason for his betrayal

of the emporer. i guess the point im making here is that i believe that all of

this was fated and there was not much free will involved. anakin was always

supposed to become darth vader, that is the only way he could've defeated

emporer, in my opinion. even at that its not like he was going to beat him in

a saber duel. if sidious beat yoda one on one i dont think ani/vader ever

could have beaten him. maybe im wrong but im one of those people who does

not believe vader became the most powerful force user, only that he had the

most midi's and was quite bad ass along with the likes of yoda and ob1, etc.

also i would like to state that i in no way said that the midi's created the force.

im not sure how what i said was interpreted that way but it was not my intention.

[Trilogist]

Senators, my nonspoiled theory on Balance to the Force is forthcoming. Probably within the next few days. By the end of the week, to be sure.

Bump!

[Trilogist]

Here it is. Hopefully, this isn’t too late, before any Episode III information comes out that totally disproves my theory. With much overhype and very little fanfare, my theory on what “balance to the Force” means:

THE UNOFFICIAL, NON-SPOILED, LOW FAT (and low carb) THEORY ON BALANCE TO THE FORCE AS TOLD BY TRILOGIST
(or, “There and Back Again: A Brief History of the Star Wars Universe”)

My theory on "Balance to the Force" is based on several concepts. First of all, the concept in physics that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, that there is a finite amount of matter/energy in the universe. My relation of this to the Force is that there is a finite amount of Force energy in the universe.

This idea is based on a classical law of physics known as the “Law of Conservation of Matter.” It is also applied as the “Law of Conservation of Energy” and – thanks to Einstein – the same principle applies to conservation of matter-energy. Instead of explaining the scientific principles therein myself, which would be woefully inadequate, I offer the following excerpt from an explanation by the great Steve Czarnecki. It is very interesting, and I highly recommend reading it. It can be found via the link here. (http://”http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/aug98/897017973.Ot.r.html”)

I include this excerpt at the risk of derailing the discussion because a proper understanding of this is helpful when applying the same principles to the Force (and because I needed “filler”). I have emphasized the main points:

Originally posted by the great Steve Czarnecki+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the great Steve Czarnecki)</div><div class='quotemain'>What you're asking about is a classical law of physics, called the "conservation of matter". It has a law partner, called the "conservation of energy" ...

The classic view on conservation of matter is this: all matter is composed of atoms of the various elements, and the total number of atoms in the universe remains constant. That is, you can rearrange the existing atoms in any way you like, but you cannot cause additional atoms to materialize nor can you cause existing atoms to disappear.

This has the practical implication that for any kind of physical process you can conceive the total mass (weight) of the ingredients will equal the total mass of the products. Now, you may have to be very careful in accounting for where the ingredients are coming from and the products are going to, but if you are careful, the mass you start with equals the mass you end with.

For example, if you burn a piece of wood, you need to measure not only the mass of the woor but how much oxygen from the air was used; in terms of product, you have ash, as well as smoke and various gasses (carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and various hyrdocarbons). Measuring this carefully may be a bit tricky, but if you're careful, you will see a balance between ingredients and products.

Another approach is to burn this wood inside a closed container with some oxygen supply inside the container; the mass of the closed container and contents is the same before the wood burns as after.

The point is that all of the oxygen atoms and various atoms of the wood
have been simply rearranged, but they all still exist somewhere. This is the classic law of conservation of matter.

The classic law of conservation of energy is similar, but a bit harder to visualize. It simply says that the amount of energy (whatever *that* is!) in the universe remains constant; it may take on different aspect, such as kinetic energy (the energy of motion), potential energy (energy stored by gravitational attraction or the electrical attraction between atoms), electromagnetic energy (e.g., electricity, radio waves, light, etc.), or heat.

The bottom line says that no matter what you do, the energy you obtain by any conceivable process equals the energy you put in plus whatever stored energy you extract. You can neither increase nor decrease the total sum of energy in the universe; all you can do is change energy from one form to another. For example, falling water over a dam converts the gravitational potential energy of the water to kinetic energy, which can be imparted to a turbine turning a generator providing electric power. Some of the water's potential energy becomes electricity, the other becomes heat lost by friction in the mechancial equipment and inefficiencies in the electrical equipment, and even to the viscosity and friction of the water itself!

These are powerful and extremely practical ideas for scientific understanding the physical world. However, they are not quite correct.

Einstein showed that a consequence of his special theory of relativity is that matter and energy are coupled, and that one can indeed create or destroy matter (or energy) PROVIDED an appropriate exchange is made between matter and energy. That is, energy can be converted to matter, subtracting from the universe's store of energy and adding to the total number of atoms. Conversely, atoms can be destroyed, subtracting from the total count but thereby adding to the universe's store of energy.

In other words, what Einstein discovered is that the universe's total matter plus energy is constant -- you can convert between matter to energy and energy to matter, much as one can convert U.S. dollars to Deutschmarks and back again, provided the proper conversion rates are used. Thus, Einstein's contribution was to combine the two independent laws of conservation into a single law of mass-energy conservation.

The conversion factor between energy and matter is Einstein's famous

E = mc^2[/b]

Not only is this interesting reading (if you’re into physics) but these ideas work in the context of Star Wars, Episode III, and Anakin Skywalker as the Chosen One. Run those through your noodle, and you may find some sense in there. Maybe.

Two items worth considering as part of the “Balance” theory: Anakin was born as a response to the rise of the Sith and their power. This is found in classic myth, and among other sources.



as Anakin grows stronger in the Force, the Jedi as a whole grow weaker.
Bringing balance to the Force, then, has double meaning. First, it establishes an inverse relationship between the Force strength/ability of Anakin Skywalker and the rest of the Jedi Order. Second, it establishes an opposite but equal response on the part of the Force itself to meet the threat posed by the re-emergence of the Sith. Yes, folks. I hate to say this, but those darn midichlorians might have a purpose after all.

Another aspect to explore is that the Sith may have their own thoughts on what Balance to the Force means. While the Jedi Council thoughtfully ponder over the meaning of the prophecy, and take a more philosophical/scientific approach to it -- with a degree openmindedness -- the Sith take a different tack. I surmise that they too know of the prophecy and have formulated their own take on it. To the Sith, Balance takes on a different connotation: one of revenge. Balance, payback, eye for an eye, revenge. Darth Maul indicated as much in his statement to Sideous.

<!--QuoteBegin-the long winded Darth Maul
At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge.[/quote]

To Lord Sideous, evidently, Anakin was his revenge on the Jedi.

So the Sith have decided on a specific meaning of the prophecy and have sought to bring about it’s fulfillment. Meanwhile, the Jedi ponder and muse, but are open to what it might mean. They are content to let things play out, like the true passive good Jedi that they are.

I now leave this open for you to agree, disagree, mull, discuss, rip apart, criticize and otherwise debate these ideas.

[Tovor]

Excellent post, I definately get the gist of what you're saying, Trilo.

[Tarkheki JD]

Tri: I bow at the knowledge of your post. *bow*

For my 2 cents (I'm on a roll today, ), I turn to something I once learned in bible class as well as from my Medicine Man.
(Yes, be it from me the LAST person to quote somethin' we learned there, but it applies well with this, and other theories of powers that be in almost every spiritual culture).

We were always taught that there are 2 plains of activity (in First Nations culture there are 4, but I am referring to only 2).
The divine and the humane. One cannot co-exist without the other since both rely on each other. The divine need a worshiper, and the humane cannot live without the miracles of the divine.
Having said this, when a prophecy is created- a divine aspect of the humane… the knowledge of seeing the future- it comes to pass with the help of both plains. The divine “creates” it, but the humane physically moves it.

So, if the powers that be willed for the fall of the Jedi, it will come to pass in the humane plane through a catalyst- Anakin.

In a “practical” sense, the fall of the Jedi was because their order was growing to faulty and drifting farther from their intended purpose- they were becoming “tainted”. In so, they were not training themselves to fight a “true” evil, but only the shallow visible shell of it. Their borders of right and wrong were growing so undistinguishable that they were not fighting the wrongs that needed to be fought, and letting some of the evil live… and that evil eventually killed them.
Anakin, a product of this chaos, would become the result and the consequence and would “clean the slate” from these beings- since they were not fulfilling their purpose. The order would also not be “equipped” to handle this threat as intended because of their lack of education (as stated previously).

On the divine level, the powers that be needed to fulfill a balance, and that usually is done through a lesson. When the good and the bad become undistinguishable, or too much power falls to one side, something has to give.

The “formula” if you will is something like this:

Balance -> the scales tip with the chaos theory -> 2 possibilities:

1) Too much good and prosperity-> deviance level rises-> Balance.
2) Too much bad-> Ultimate punishment-> A lesson is learnt and restores balance.


If there is too much corruption in the senate/politics that run the joint (Too much bad), the lesson will come with tyranny (Ultimate punishment) and everyone learns the value of being true and honest (lesson is learned, and the new republic rises with the promise of virtue).

If the Jedi become to engaged in their philosophy of what is right and wrong, and become almost ludicrous with it’s rules (no attachment, no love, everything for the better purpose: too much “good”) than the deviance will strengthen with those who feel otherwise (old Chinese/native proverb: the stronger the discipline, the greater the defiance- deviance level rises).
And the lesson is delivered by the same catalyst: Anakin.

Of course, we cannot forget that there will always BE good and evil because one is the measuring stick to the other, so in a sense these struggles continue day in and day out, and only the greater picture will decide.

And that’s what my Medicine Man taught me… redundant as this post was (Trio really hit the nail good on the head) I wanted to say it.
Meh, law of averages. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Whitesaber]

Interesting theories, both of you. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[Trilogist]

Great post Tark. That was in a whole other dimension - the metaphysical. Cool.

[Tarkheki JD]

Heh, thanx. I'm more of the metaphysical person. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[JKRich]

So the Force balanced out by cleaning out the jedi order?You figure a few hundred jedi and two sith.So the force made it equal.How does Yoda know that there is only two Master and apprentice?He did think the sith were extinct right?

[Tarkheki JD]

That balance isn't done in the sence of 100 grms = 1 pound... keep in mind that "the dark side IS stronger".... also, the force willed for the "destruciton" of the jedi in a means to "reform" it. It was getitng to ludecrous in it's rules (for instance the age old "no love" which contradicts the "loving everything" rule) and needed a "change". Sort of like the warning (possible come-back of the sith) and a punishment for continueing in it's faulty ways (arrogance, contradiction in rules, the fact it was serving a corrupt republic).
And since another lesson needed to be taught (to the corrupt republic) the outcome also influenced the republic. You see, eveyrhting is tied in the Universe. Nothing happens without a reason.

As for Yoda, well for starters he's nearly as old as the order itself, and the "documents" stated that there were two [Sith] only. Considering the fate of the Sith was recorded, it wouldn't be so hard to derive what was the situation. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[cj790]

IMO Anakin restored balanced to the Force by two means - destroying the previous orders of good and bad, and fathering the offspring of the new order.
I think there are some Japanese myths that are similar - that one comes to destroy, the other to create. The future can only be built from the ashes of the old - that all traces of the old must disappear for the new to begin. This is also one of the readings of Noah's ark. I'm sure Joseph Campbell has something similar to say, but it's been years since I read him style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif
Anakin kills the Jedi, and also kills the Emperor. He then dies, so that Luke and Leia, prophets of the new age, may rebuild the galaxy.

[Master Shrive]

I think Anikan tips the balance the other direction - so that there is more good left than evil. At the end of TJR, there is only one good Jedi left, and no others. If he's returning balance to the force, I though there would be at least a similar amount of good and bad force users left at the end.

Then again, to contradict myself, I think in the EU there is something about an old sith masters spirit been around, so maybe he did just rebalance the scales.

I was going to ask why the midichlorines (sorry about spelling) haven't interfered before. I mean, in the history of the Star Wars universe, there has been occasions when the Sith have ruled. Why not choose a chosen one then?

Thinking about it, I thought maybe its becuase they knew the Jedi would eventually come back. But during the downfall of the Repbulic the Jedi really were out for the count. Therefore, the midichlorines had to intervene and create a chosen one to restore balance.

Tarkheki JD also made a great post, finishing... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>You see, eveyrhting is tied in the Universe. Nothing happens without a reason.[/b][/quote] Not bad! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Tarkheki JD]

THankies! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/grouphug.gif

[Virus]

anyone think they will say in EP3 that The Force has been brought into balance or not? Or will it be implied?

[cj790]

I think it was meant to be in ROTJ that the Force was meant to come into balance.

[Tovor]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>My original post on this subject:

My take is that the Force itself is good by its very nature, and that the dark side is an abomination and abuse of the good of the Force.* The Jedi need to be at peace, passive, to interact with the Force, for the Force requires harmony and peace to be in balance.* When the Jedi is acting by anger or greed he is going against the nature of the Force and throws his own inner Force balance out of whack.

In TPM Qui-Gon sensed an tremor in the Force, something that was causing friction against the harmony of the Force.* Whether that was the untrained Anakin interacting with the Force without true knowledge of it, or the future arrival of Darth Maul that he sensed, something was contrasting the peaceful nature of the Force.* Impending evil use of the Force, a violation of the nature of the peaceful Force, was sensed by Qui-Gon like ripples in a disrupted pond.* The good user of the Force interacts with it and flows with it, in harmony; while dark side users, going against the nature of the "goodness" of the Force, disrupted it and sent out ominous ripples.* Lucas has stated that at the time of TPM, both Yoda and Mace Windu had already begun to sense that the Force was becoming unbalanced by a growing evil entity.* While they did not detect Darth Sideous' presence on Coruscant, or Sideous/Palpatine's dark side presence even beside them, they still detected that the Force was becoming unbalanced by something unknown.* I think if Yoda and Windu's discussion at Qui-Gon's funeral, the "Always two there are..." revelation, had included their understanding that it was the resurgence of the Sith that had caused the unbalance they had previously sensed, we would have a better understanding of GL's direction regarding the "balance" plotline.* So my believe is that if the return of the Sith (return to power, out of hiding) was the cause of the unbalance in the Force, then it was Anakin's destruction of the Sith Master--who caused the imbalance--that restored it.

So with that believe, I say that once Palpatine rose to true power as Emperor and destroyed the keepers of good and peace, the Force was completely and overwhelmingly out of balance, with only Dark Side imbalance permeating the galaxy.

With the entire galaxy out of balance with the Force due to the Emperor's evil, and the evil hearts of those who worked for him, as you said Cat, it was Luke's training on Dagobah that caused a calming ripple of good and peace in the middle of the raging imbalance of the Force in the galaxy.* It was that calm spot in the middle of a storm that alerted the Emperor in TESB to Luke's training and rising threat to Palpatine.* Now why didn't Obi-Wan's existance cause such a disruption to the imbalanced Force to alert the emperor?* I don't know, except that the hermit Kenobi was not using the Force to a great degree on Tatooine to be sensed by the emperor.* Despite Vader's sensation of Kenobi on the Death Star due to familarity, it was only Luke's training with Yoda, and his rising abilities, that caused ripples in the imbalanced Force big enough for Vader and the emperor to sense.

In summary, in TPM the Force had been in balance due to the Jedi stemming evil and working for peace, and the rise of the "extinct" Sith was causing an imbalance.* At the end of Episode III, the Force will be in complete disruption and imbalance.* In Episode V with the Force in imbalance, it was the rise of the "extinct" Jedi that was causing a growing balance.* So when Anakin drove the dark side from his own free will and killed the ultimate evil, he restored balance by eliminating the cause of the imbalance (which I think was not Vader per se, but the Sith and the dark side that controlled Vader).
[/b][/quote]

[Suzanne (ex CoS Leia)]

I agree that the force is becoming increasingly unbalanced as the PT progresses and it is only with the events of the OT that the prophecy will be fulfilled.

Anakin brings balance to the force by both being the father of Luke - the final means to bring him to his senses - and acting in finally killing the Emperor.

[James]

Agreed Suzanne.

The Force was not in balance in AOTC - the Jedi couldn't tell the future, the Sith were clouding their vision. Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by killing Palps in ROTJ and then he died himself. This brought about the end of the Sith, and the Force was back in balance.

[Whitesaber]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Agreed Suzanne.

The Force was not in balance in AOTC - the Jedi couldn't tell the future, the Sith were clouding their vision. Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by killing Palps in ROTJ and then he died himself. This brought about the end of the Sith, and the Force was back in balance. [/b][/quote]

That's the beauty of this whole thing, though. Balance means that both sides are equal, both are of the same weight. How can the destruction of all the Sith (one side, the dark side) bring the Force back into balance?

I'll let you all discuss this while I formulate my theory...

[Tarkheki JD]

I'm sitckin' with my "theory" of a tip to one side before the balance rectifies itself. Liek the "lessons to be learned"... you know.... go read my post. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[James]

Letting the Sith take over was imbalance, it led to the Empire. The destruction of the Empire and the Sith led to peace, ie balance, in the galaxy.

[Whitesaber]

I came up with a crazy theory that is definitelty not true, but I want to share it with you all.

I think it's all symbolic, and Anakin represents "the Force" in respects to having the most midi-chlorians than any other Jedi. When Anakin turns to the dark side, that represents the powerful and dominating "dark side of the Force". Powerful and dominating is correct, since he's a Sith for a long time (entire OT) and kills a lot of people, etc...

But then, Luke brings him back to the good side, the harder path. The narrow path of wisdom, patience, compassion... and of sacrifice. He kills the Emperor at the cost of his own life to save his son and everyone under the oppression of the Empire. This represents the light side.

In essence, Anakin visited both worlds, the evil and quick path and the good and compassionate path. With both sides to him, he is essentially balanced out when he dies.

Again, symbolism. The Force = Dark Side + Light Side.
The Chosen One = Darth Vader + Anakin Skywalker
Harmony.

[Trilogist]

I agree with James, balance can mean peace. Like ripples on a pond, the appearance of the Sith, wielding the evil dark side, creates an imbalance. The Chosen One is meant to destroy the Sith, as the Prophecy predicted they would return.

And balance the Force did, with a twist: Anakin first becomes one of the two Sith. Then, as Vader, he destroys both the Emperor and himself in one swift stroke.

[James]

Originally posted by Trilogist@Jul 6 2004, 11:42 AM
I agree with James, balance can mean peace.
Thanks Trilo!!

[Tovor]

Lord Thread, " style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rise.gif "

[Tovor]

Originally posted by toVor@Jul 1 2004, 10:03 PM
My original post on this subject:

My take is that the Force itself is good by its very nature, and that the dark side is an abomination and abuse of the good of the Force.* The Jedi need to be at peace, passive, to interact with the Force, for the Force requires harmony and peace to be in balance.* When the Jedi is acting by anger or greed he is going against the nature of the Force and throws his own inner Force balance out of whack.

In TPM Qui-Gon sensed an tremor in the Force, something that was causing friction against the harmony of the Force.* Whether that was the untrained Anakin interacting with the Force without true knowledge of it, or the future arrival of Darth Maul that he sensed, something was contrasting the peaceful nature of the Force.* Impending evil use of the Force, a violation of the nature of the peaceful Force, was sensed by Qui-Gon like ripples in a disrupted pond.* The good user of the Force interacts with it and flows with it, in harmony; while dark side users, going against the nature of the "goodness" of the Force, disrupted it and sent out ominous ripples.* Lucas has stated that at the time of TPM, both Yoda and Mace Windu had already begun to sense that the Force was becoming unbalanced by a growing evil entity.* While they did not detect Darth Sideous' presence on Coruscant, or Sideous/Palpatine's dark side presence even beside them, they still detected that the Force was becoming unbalanced by something unknown.* I think if Yoda and Windu's discussion at Qui-Gon's funeral, the "Always two there are..." revelation, had included their understanding that it was the resurgence of the Sith that had caused the unbalance they had previously sensed, we would have a better understanding of GL's direction regarding the "balance" plotline.* So my believe is that if the return of the Sith (return to power, out of hiding) was the cause of the unbalance in the Force, then it was Anakin's destruction of the Sith Master--who caused the imbalance--that restored it.

So with that believe, I say that once Palpatine rose to true power as Emperor and destroyed the keepers of good and peace, the Force was completely and overwhelmingly out of balance, with only Dark Side imbalance permeating the galaxy.

With the entire galaxy out of balance with the Force due to the Emperor's evil, and the evil hearts of those who worked for him, as you said Cat, it was Luke's training on Dagobah that caused a calming ripple of good and peace in the middle of the raging imbalance of the Force in the galaxy.* It was that calm spot in the middle of a storm that alerted the Emperor in TESB to Luke's training and rising threat to Palpatine.* Now why didn't Obi-Wan's existance cause such a disruption to the imbalanced Force to alert the emperor?* I don't know, except that the hermit Kenobi was not using the Force to a great degree on Tatooine to be sensed by the emperor.* Despite Vader's sensation of Kenobi on the Death Star due to familarity, it was only Luke's training with Yoda, and his rising abilities, that caused ripples in the imbalanced Force big enough for Vader and the emperor to sense.

In summary, in TPM the Force had been in balance due to the Jedi stemming evil and working for peace, and the rise of the "extinct" Sith was causing an imbalance.* At the end of Episode III, the Force will be in complete disruption and imbalance.* In Episode V with the Force in imbalance, it was the rise of the "extinct" Jedi that was causing a growing balance.* So when Anakin drove the dark side from his own free will and killed the ultimate evil, he restored balance by eliminating the cause of the imbalance (which I think was not Vader per se, but the Sith and the dark side that controlled Vader).

Quoted post

Bumparump

[OB1]

Again! :bop: