A Jedi Shall Not Love

[Mann]

Okay, so the Jedi have a code that says they aren't allowed to Love anyone. But exactly how do they expect to keep the line of Jedi alive if they don't reproduce? Where is the line drawn for "love?" what are your thoughts?

[Tovor]

From my perception of the saga, reproduction between a Jedi and a wife is not how future Jedi come to be. *All living beings have midichlorians in their cells, but it is those who have an unusually high count of midis who are able to use the Force and become Jedi. *But except for the case of the son of Anakin who got his midis from his father, Force-sensitive babies are few and far between and are formed in the womb with high midis by pure random chance. *The prequel novelizations and books set during the prequel era indicate that when a baby is identified (by tests at birth, I presume) as Force-sensitive, he or she is given up by his parents to train to be a Jedi for the good of the galaxy, and have no further contact with the family of origin (the Jedi Order becomes their new and only family). *That to me indicates that their parents were not Jedi at all but regular beings, who spawned a Jedi potential by pure chance of nature, or by the will of the living Force.

[Meche]

Hmm, I was pretty sure there was already a topic on this, but I can't find it. *Oh well.

Anyway, there are two things I can think of: first, the high midichlorian count is probably a positive mutation and not necessarily inherited, like Tovor said.
Second, even if it is inherited, remember not all Force-sensitive babies are sent to the Jedi Temple. *Usually they are taken from their parents before six months of age, but not all parents would necessarily choose to send them.

As an aside, according to Lucas as far as I know, Jedi aren't required to be "chaste". *http://us.imdb.com/WN?20020516#1
Pretty warped and faulty on the part of the Jedi IMHO, if they're not allowed to be married. *But I'm not sure about their rules on having children. *That would suck if they're not allowed to form attachments with children as well as partners... sigh.

[Lara]

I think they had to love every living being as they would love themselves, this is a brotherly love feeling towards others. What was forbidden was an exclusive love relationship between a Jedi and another because this would be like wearing blinders, the Jedi couldn't see the forest for the trees.

I agree with Tov, being born with Force abilities was just the work of nature not genes specifically.

[Kafer]

Chanelling Tark for a second. Where do they draw the line? Right after me but just in front of Cat.

[Justin]

As far as I can tell, or at least speculate, the Jedi aren't allowed to have a mate (for lack of a better word) because losing them can be unbearable, and can potentially lead to the Jedi turning to the dark side.

Think about it; If a Jedi's wife or husband is murdered or kidnapped, or any other kind of terrible misfortune befalls them, the Jedi might be overcome with grief and anger and might go out for revenge. *

This is probably also the reason Jedi aren't allowed to know their parents. Just look at what happened to Anakin when his mother was killed.

Something terrible is probably going to happen to Padme, and that's peobably what will spur Anakin to become Darth Vader.

[Lara]

LMAO! Kafe :p :hehe:

[QuigonWindu]

OK I was just having a wierd thought. A jedi cant have a wife(or husband), know his parents etc. What if 2 twins (in the prequel era) have enough midi-chlorians to become jedi. Since jedi keep their names. These twins would have to know they're related and love each other. The council cant stop them. So what do yall think.

[Justin]

They would probably be separated as soon as they are born.

[catwmnjedi]

<span style='color:#daa500'>Oh my Kafer! *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif Sorry, but I already claimed the Jedi sandwich, so you have to include me.

Uhhh, if it's only mutation, then why did Luke mentioned it ran strong in his family? *Was that just coincidence? *A fluke? Perhaps.

I dunno... I like to think they can't have wives/families if they stay in the Jedi Order officially, but they probably could resign from duty to have families. *Could they be let in after that, like if wife dies or kids are grown? *My opinion would be only if wife and all kids died, in other words all attachments were severed permanently. *Maybe they could denounce their attachment? *Hmmm.. I'm thinking out loud, but look at Anakin. *He was taken away, but he clearly still had an emotional attachment to his mother. *They didn't like that I'm sure, but they still allowed him to train. *A wife may be a different story... so will they kick him out of the Jedi Order completely when they find out? *We'll have to see.

I guess what I'm thinking is... they may have or have had attachments at one time or another, but to serve as official Jedi Knights, they have to forget those ties while serving, so their families couldn't live with them or anything. *I often wonder if this rule was changed through SW history also. *Perhaps in ancient times Jedi raised and trained their families, but later when the Council was established, they became more like monks, severing those types of ties.

There is an exception we must remember here... Master-Padawan "attachment". *Is a padawan not attached to his/her master? *Obviously Obi-Wan was very attached emotionally to Qui-Gon, crying at his death... this seems to contradict their rule a little, doesn't it? *Unless the rule means attachments OUTSIDE the Jedi Order. **shrug*

I think of their commitment in terms of Catholic priests, for example. *They make a vow to God and the Church, and they are considered "married" to the Church. *This is why they aren't allowed to be married... it's feared making such a vow to another person would interfere with their vow to serve the Church. *Wouldn't the Jedi be a similar thing?

Anyway, the EU after ROTJ assumes force gifts run in families, and that hasn't been disputed to my knowlege by GL. *Does anyone else have something from an interview that suggests differently? *Just curious.</span>

[Meche]

Except that Catholic priests aren't allowed to have sex at all, right?

Anyway, it's probably just a will of the Force. Or maybe it's possibly genetic and it can also occur as a mutation (it's not like your parents pass on every single one of their characteristics to you).

[Tovor]

I think of their commitment in terms of Catholic priests, for example. *They make a vow to God and the Church, and they are considered "married" to the Church. *This is why they aren't allowed to be married... it's feared making such a vow to another person would interfere with their vow to serve the Church. *Wouldn't the Jedi be a similar thing?

That is exactly the way I see it. *Luke wanted to end his training to save Han and Leia. *Anakin couldn't save his mother during the first 10 year under Obi-Wan, because he could not leave without his master's permission...but he deserted his mission on Naboo to go to her rather than stay where he was instructed. *He also wanted to end the chase after Dooku because of his attatchment to Padme (and the vow he made at his mom's grave to never fail again by not saving a loved one). *In every case, it was attachment to a loved one that overrode the apprentice's priorities to the Jedi order. *When Qui-Gon was told to return to Naboo and draw out the mysterious warrior, he accepted his order without question. *Imagine if he had family on Coruscant, and wanted to go to his sick daughter or lonely wife first? *Jedi attatchment to any persons over their role to serve as Jedi for the good of all people equally, always hinders their role and affectiveness. *As I stated a few weeks ago in a different thread about Yoda's strengths, Yoda himself failed at the end of AOTC by heeding his personal feelings and letting Dooku escape in order to save Obi-Wan and Anakin. *Just as Obi-Wan would not let Anakin stop the chase to save Padme, Yoda should not have stopped the duel to save Obi-Wan and Anakin. *His personal feelings allowed Dooku to escape and the Clone Wars to continue. *And that is so clearly--I think Lucas planned that Yoda example to be a lesson, rather than me overanalyzing it--why Jedi cannot have bonds with any being or place that could come before their priorities to the Jedi role.

There is an exception we must remember here... Master-Padawan "attachment". *Is a padawan not attached to his/her master? *Obviously Obi-Wan was very attached emotionally to Qui-Gon, crying at his death... this seems to contradict their rule a little, doesn't it? *Unless the rule means attachments OUTSIDE the Jedi Order. **shrug*

An interesting point. *That kind of bond and love cannot be avoided, not when master and apprentice share mind and will and serve side by side for so many years. *But remember that as soon as the energy door came open Obi-Wan ran after Maul rather than run to try to save his master. *Maul was in the way waiting to kill him, so its not so good an example. *But when Maul kicked Obi-Wan over the side of the catwalk in the energy chamber, Qui-Gon did not so much as pause to look over and see if his apprentice landed with a light thud or a messy splat...he kept on fighting regardless of personal feelings. (Or it could be said that through the Force he "saw" the ledge Obi-Wan would land on, and knew he wasn't in danger of falling too far, but you get my point.)

[Tovor]

Except that Catholic priests aren't allowed to have sex at all, right?

Right. It's a good thing the Jedi don't have alter boys. :bored:

[Kafer]

Wrong - Priests can have sex some time in their lives.

The Catholic Priest that married me has Grand Children and Great Grand Children. He was married, had kids and when his wife died an early death, he joined the Priesthood. So, no, they can't have sex while they're Priests, but the could before they were Priests.

I've always thought of it more like Cat said. That if Jedi want to take a mate and raise a family they retire or go on extended leave or some such thing and do the family thing.

[Shadow Jedi Rhyro]

Very good points Tovor. I do think that GL was trying to make a point that although Yoda is a very powerful jedi that perhaps his personal feelings did interfere with his mission in that if he'd continued on Dooku rather than save Obi and Ani he would most likely have been successful. That being said though I really can't see someone like Yoda not helping those in danger especially comrades as that is part of his code. Also on the whole padawan-master bond I think it's very important to note that as is the case with Obi and Qui Gon the master does serve as a male role model and even father figure. Although nothing in the movies to contrast it to the very nature of young people who have never known a family would grow very close to the master they are assigned to.

[Javen]

In the sand

[Meche]

Originally posted by Kafer@July 19 2002 - 22: 00
Wrong - Priests can have sex some time in their lives.
Can I never try hard enough? *I didn't mean any time in their lives, I meant while they were priests. *I realize that they could have beforehand... but Jedi are Jedi all their lives. *They're taken to the Temple as infants, and I thought only twenty have left the order...

[Teek]

Frankly I think the thought that they can't have a family because they might be kidnapped or something is wrong. Can policemen and women have families? Can FBI agents have families? Can people in the military have families? Can people in high positions in government have families? All are important jobs on the same level as the Jedi or above, where the risk of kidnapping could be so much larger. And while kidnapping is possible, I do not see it is a valid reason to not have a wife and kids. If that's the case we might as well say the President can't have a family, what if the wife and kids are kidnapped by a rogue nation and held hostage. Is that a reason to make it so no future presidents can have families? You realize how insane that sounds? It's not addressing the root of a problem merely paying lip service to it.

It's like if I get my hand stuck in the door, don't get me asprin to kill the pain, for God's sake open the door. Address the real problem. The Jedi could have families and form attachments to them and still perform their duties, just like an FBI agent could. And if one says, well Jedi have the Force and that could lead them to the darkside... well I could love my wife too... and their kidnapping or murder could make me go down a very dark and dangerous path... Does that STILL make it a valid reason? Hardly. A person in government could wield a far more reaching newly formed dark power than a Jedi could. I mean if I was a policeman, and some drug dealers killed my family, I could go insane with rage just like a Jedi could. I could possibly never forgive the world for their death.

Now if the Jedi are suppose to be priest like, that's another matter. I think the thing that basically kills the idea they're suppose to be priest like is that GL said they can have sex outside of marriage. Meche posted the link to that GL statement above. It doesn't make any sense. Either they remain pure all together to focus on the Force and their protection of the galaxy and have no attachments, or they can have families and form attachments. To think GL says they could have sex and yet form no posessive attachments is cold, uncaring and very disturbing. Might as well call them Jedi Man-*****s or plain *****s in the case of female Jedi.

[Justin]

Teek, the risks are greater for a Jedi's reaction to losing a loved one than a police officer (although we are talking about a fictional organization here; it really has nothing to do with our reality) because the Jedi are far more powerful.

Remember in the scene where Anakin is being tested by the Jedi Council, and Yoda basically says that Anakin's fear of losing his mother is dangerous.

So it's not necessarily just kidnapping, but any form of losing a loved one that can lead a Jedi to the dark side. Just look at what happened to Anakin when his mother was taken, tortured, and killed.

Because he was a Jedi, he was powerful enough to destroy an entire village of Tusken Raiders on his own. If he was just some regular guy, he probably wouldn't have survived, and definitely wouldn't have killed so many.

So obviously that's one of the reasons why Jedi aren't permitted to form intense personal attachments; losing people they love can cause them to react in a very dangerous way, with dire consequences.

[Teek]

So you're saying Justin, that cops or people high in government couldn't lose a loved one and use their power for evil purposes? Is that not the exact same thing as a Jedi falling to the dark side? So Jedi have special powers, that's not really a factor, and it should not be brought into this discussion. Because force choking someone to death and shooting people still result in the same end.

[Meche]

Remember in the scene where Anakin is being tested by the Jedi Council, and Yoda basically says that Anakin's fear of losing his mother is dangerous.

Yes it is, but shouldn't they learn to face and deal with the fear rather than just avoid anything that may cause it? *Which is impossible to avoid.

Because he was a Jedi, he was powerful enough to destroy an entire village of Tusken Raiders on his own. *If he was just some regular guy, he probably wouldn't have survived, and definitely wouldn't have killed so many.

Assuming that's true about regular guys: so, say a Jedi could have killed 30 people and survived, while a regular guy could only have killed 10 and not survived. *That makes it wrong for the Jedi to take the risk of loving someone, but okay for a regular guy to do so? *Because he "only" killed 10, and didn't survive? *I don't understand the reasoning.

So obviously that's one of the reasons why Jedi aren't permitted to form intense personal attachments; losing people they love can cause them to react in a very dangerous way, with dire consequences.

The death of simply one person out of revenge is already dire, and *anyone* is capable of it. *And of course, anyone is also capable of doing a lot more damage. *Forming an attachment with a loved one is big no matter what. If Jedi ought to just avoid attachments, does this mean that they are simply not capable of attaining the discipline and maturity of dealing with the responsibilities that go along with loving someone? *No wonder the Jedi have lost respect and have been getting blinder and weaker. *Which, of course, was the whole point.

[Senator Amory]

I gotta question...what does "LMAO" mean? I see it everywhere, but I still haven't figured out what it means. Could someone tell me?

[Tovor]

Laughing my a$$ off. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Justin]

Teek, we're talking about the fundamental beliefs of a fictitious religious order, not the policy of an organization in reality. I'm saying this might be a reason that the Jedi use, I'm not saying I agree with it and think it should be enforced in real life.

And for someone who's jumped on me for being abrasive (I can only think of one instance on here when I might have been a little harsh), why are you being so vehemently hostile? *You sure take this stuff seriously.

[Teek]

I know it's a fictitious, SHEESH JUSTIN!!?!!1!1! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Seriously though, the statements GL has made as to what the Jedi believe doesn't make much sense. If the whole point is that the beliefs make little sense then that's cool. Shows one reason why the Jedi have their downfall.

[JocastaNu]

Actually they very much make sense when one compares them to similar beliefs of certain Buddhist monks.

And why do people automatically equate "not celibate" to girl in every port, running down to the Outlander to pick up a couple of twileks to get out some of those "frustrations" on? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

We know what the Jedi beliefs are, basically, what makes anyone thing the same basic rules don't apply to their sex lives? If they are not to act on anger or hatred, if they are not to be possessive or attached, then they also aren't to commit sexual acts based on lust or high passions either.

It an entirely different view of sex than what is common for most of us. And in fact, it means that despite not having a celibacy rule, a good Jedi would probably have sex only on rare occassions. And when they did, it would be with utmost respect and consideration for whomever their partner was, Jedi or civilian, probably with a sense that it wouldn't happen unless it was felt that the partner was truly accepting of the circumstances. Basically sex would not be on their priority list, but if the situation arose where it was possible within their beliefs, then it could be acted upon and fully appreciated.

[Meche]

Who said this is the same thing as going after girls in every port?

I don't believe that the Jedi is having utmost respect and consideration for their partner if they have sex without loving or commitment. *It simply cannot be fully appreciated without those things. *And this does happen within our culture without being looked down upon. *It's sick to me, and I don't care what universe you're from.

Hopefully Lucas thought this up in order to show one of the Jedi's weaknesses, contributing to their downfall.

[Justin]

Maybe Jedi can only have sex with other Jedi.

[Tovor]

Here is something to think about...
Maybe the Jedi, using the Force and mind tricks, could, uh, please their partner from across the room, or another room entirely. *Did anyone see that movie years and years ago with Chevy Chase where he was exposed to radiation or something (not the Invisible Man) and aquired the power to move and affect things with his mind? *The funniest scene was when he was having sex with his girlfriend in the bedroom, and when he was done but she wasn't, he used his mind powers to continue servicing her while he went into the kitchen and ate a sandwhich, and she was all over the bed with delight as if he was still there. *With that in mind, just imagine what a Jedi could do!

[Shadow Jedi Rhyro]

This goes back to the jedi kidnapping thing. Now essentially the Jedi are the protectors of the galaxy and the keepers of peace and therefore not politicians(for which many obviously have a dislike) or even firemen or policemen. They hold a rank which ficticiously is higher serving as the FBI, police, and even military combined not to mention ambassadors and even slightly on the political side. Well if they were allowed to have significant attachments imagine how easy it would be to essentially turn the people who served so many roles against us. I understand this whole thing is ficticious but just imagine if we had so many public servants basically turn on the public at large to pursue their own vigilante lifestyle. So if there were an enemy with a vested enough interest to take us down from within all they'd need to do was attack the ones close to the only line of defense we have(or at least overwhelmingly most powerful).

[catwmnjedi]

Trust me Tov, I've imagined it many times. :devil:

Uh.. ok, so if Jedi can have sex, why bother have Anakin marry Padme at all? I mean, if marriage gets him in trouble... couldn't they just have a secret affair? Does marriage have a point for a Jedi if they don't want kids? Or is he afraid of "dishonoring" her somehow? Curious.

[Meche]

Jedi relationships are supposed to be devoid of attachment and love/romantic feeling. It's a romance like theirs that's forbidden. I don't think Anakin and Amidala intended to be that way. Yes, it's possible that one or both of them thought it wrong to not be married also.

[Justin]

Think a Jedi could like, use the Force to you know, "sustain himself" for like an hour? That would rule. I wish I was a Jedi. I don't mean that I...nevermind, this is getting too wierd. lol

[Blizzard]

Yes, very weird!

*bops Justin on the head* :p

[Lara]

Justin, I know someone who can "sustain" it for an hour; I kid you not. :sly:

[JocastaNu]

I don't believe that the Jedi is having utmost respect and consideration for their partner if they have sex without loving or commitment.

That's because we tend to have a narrower view of this sort of stuff. "Romantic" love as we know it is tied mainly to medieval morality. That isn't to say there is anything wrong with romantic love, this is just a different way of looking at it. Prior to those medieval ideals was, of course, something that we'd find even more difficult to take, because it was often mainly a business transaction, father handed daughter over to husband, often based on tradings of land, animals and other gifts or money changing hands. It was like bartering, seeing where they got the best deal. Even the most loving of husbands was not expected to(and rarely did) only have sex with his wife. Women of course usually were expected to be completely faithful so as not to risk polluting hubby's gene pool.

The Jedi would love their partner, it's just not the "romantic" type of love we normally equate with it. It doesn't usually happen in our culture, in our culture it's either lust or romantic love and that's pretty much it. This is neither. It's not lust, in fact, assuming it's based those eastern teaching I read about, it couldn't be done out of lust, that's in the same league with anger and hate and those other types of emotions Jedi are expected to overcome and release to the Force rather than acting upon.

It isn't doing anything disrespectul or incosiderate to their partner if their partner wants it as well. It's not like they'd be forcing them to do it. Having sex probably a handful of times or so(which is probably about as often as a good Jedi sticking to those beliefs would), with all that in place, hardly makes it sick. Most people have sex more often than that when they really don't feel like(the spouse/significant other want it, even though they really aren't in the mood) or just because they are feeling "randy" or the alcohol got to them and they did something stupid. Basically those relatively few times a Jedi would do it would always mean something.

[Tovor]

Justin, I know someone who can "sustain" it for an hour; I kid you not.

That's right, and I didn't use the Force for that! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/satisfied.gif

[JediBendu]

So if there were an enemy

it's too late

I don't think Anakin and Amidala intended to be that way.

I'm pretty sure Amidala planned it this way but Anakin wouldn't have a clue. 'I can do what with the Force!

The Jedi would love their partner,

I'm sorry, are we talking about Jedi? If you could see into the future, read other people's thoughts, even manipulate your surroundings with a simple thought, would you even bother?

[Master Jason]

I think the priest idea is probably the closest to what GL envisioned them as. You never know though. They could be raging sex fiends and nobody knows it. It could be part of their secret society or something. Not likely, just trying to throw some ideas out there. If love is forbidden then why did Anakin fall for Padme? My guess is that since he grew up with his mother's love and understood how things like that worked and he wanted to be able to have his own family too. To be able to love his own children the same way. But when the Jedi says no you're not allowed to do that, he says screw you. Which is why I think none of the other Jedi had families. They had no sense of love before. They didn't really know what it was. They had admiration for their masters, but it wasn't really love. They knew how the path went and that they would eventually be out on their own and later with their own padawan. It all boiled down to sense of duty. Anakin's experience with love was too great to be overcome by any amount of duty. Now my mind is blank. The music stopped and I'm screwed for a while.

[Justin]

But Lara, doesn't that make you sore after a while?

[Meche]

Originally posted by JocastaNu@Aug. 02 2002 - 04:02
That's because we tend to have a narrower view of this sort of stuff.
No, my view is not narrow.

And I'm not talking about "romantic" love, I'm not talking about the medieval values nor about the "bartering" type of marriage. Not sure why you talk about those, because I do not have those in mind. Nor am I talking about our culture's "love or lust." In fact...

It isn't doing anything disrespectul or incosiderate to their partner if their partner wants it as well.

Not sure if you're American but I am, and this is exactly what our culture says as well--if the partners are consenting adults then it is okay. What you're saying here is no different. But I do not believe that consent is all that is needed. And yes, having sex without giving it proper meaning, no matter how many or few times, does make it sick. Alcohol, boredom, or forcing the partner are not the only things that make it wrong. I've heard too about how sex can be used for some spiritual purpose, without having to be attached to the partner, but I don't buy this stuff. One can't have sex and give it meaning by shutting it off from the rest of their lives. The good stuff that come from it aren't achieved from, well, the "pelvic level". Their whole lives and values have to intertwine, they should care for each other beyond the bedroom (or wherever...) and of course that causes them to be very much attached to each other and be loyal to each other, and this makes sense. I don't want to go too far here though, so let this explain my thoughts better. (http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showarticle?item_id=1816)

[jedi.master_ennasus]

well this is becoming a very detailed discussion!!

Like Jason said i reckon anakin fell in love with padme cos he already knew about love unlike other jedi. But i wondered why they felt they had to get married before they had sex. Without anything to do with the characters feelings i just think GL decided they might have to get married so that the plot would be morally correct, so he wouldnt get any complaints about promoting sex before marriage and all that melarky!

[JocastaNu]

And I'm not talking about "romantic" love, I'm not talking about the medieval values nor about the "bartering" type of marriage. *Not sure why you talk about those, because I do not have those in mind. *

Because what you are talking about is based on those values.

One can't have sex and give it meaning by shutting it off from the rest of their lives. *

But it isn't cut off from the rest of their lives. *It could only come about from arising naturally out of situations they found themselves in during the course of living their lives because it would have to be situations that didn't come from lust, so it couldn't be "pelvic". *

I've heard too about how sex can be used for some spiritual purpose, without having to be attached to the partner, but I don't buy this stuff. *

Just because you don't believe it can happen doesn't mean it can't. *I'm not saying I practice it, but I can certainly believe it to be true and possible. *It feels like something that is possible to me. *

[Teek]

How can something be true and possible at the same time? I mean, fairies could be possible but that doesn't make it true really... And even then just because you believe it to be possible doesn't make it right.

[JocastaNu]

Okay Teek, get on me for my choice of words. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif Let's just edit down to "I believe it's true". The reason I said "possible" as well was because I wasn't saying that it was the ONLY way for everyone (and neither do the Jedi, Jedi are living in a different culture) but that if one CHOSE that way, it was possible to do. Why would it be wrong? There are many possible ways to live without one way being more right or more wrong than another. That isn't to say there aren't wrong ways but that doesn't mean there is only one right way either. There can be multiple positive ways to live.

As someone else said, it's basically "Buddhism lite", the whole discourage attachment and possession, encourage compassion and detachment. But it's actually not foreign to Christianity either as an ideal, the whole idea of giving up all personal possessions and attached relationships but we tend to be more hung up on sex. Even Plato discusses it. It's part of the ideals which the Jedi strive for. Besides the Jedi are allowed to love, it's just a more encompassing "caritas" or "agape" they strive for, as opposed to the romantic which is by definition focused on a single person, so it isn't like what is being discussed is the Jedi just saying "Hey I'm feeling randy, I'm going to pick me up some Twi'leks". In fact, based on what we know of them, that sort of action, based on lust, would be greatly discouraged, just like anger and hate and jealousy. All Lucas was saying is that a Jedi might have sex occassionally in their lives without getting kicked out of the Order. He in all likelyhood wasn't giving them carte blanche to run around the galaxy leaving a girl(or boy) in every port. I see nothing evil about this.

[Teek]

Ah, how empty and soulless of the Jedi.

[Justin]

I think that it's wrong to have sex with someone you don't love and aren't committed to, but the Jedi might see it differently.

[Meche]

Nope, sorry. I am not talking about medieval romantic love, and if you think I am then we simply have different definitions of what it is. I think of romantic love as the kind people have when they're in their teens and don't yet notice the other person's faults or look at the whole picture. It usually either passes, or it develops into mature love which is what I'm trying to talk about; it's based on different things also.

But it isn't cut off from the rest of their lives. *It could only come about from arising naturally out of situations they found themselves in during the course of living their lives because it would have to be situations that didn't come from lust, so it couldn't be "pelvic".

I do not understand this at all. The Jedi is trying to only sleep with someone without forming any sort of attachment with that person, so how is their relationship not at the pelvic level?

He in all likelyhood wasn't giving them carte blanche to run around the galaxy leaving a girl(or boy) in every port.

Don't go back to that. And where is the cut off limit? How much is a small amount, and when does it become too much? How do you know?

As for the constant "why would it be wrong", it's because it is not possible. We're talking about the closest intimacy possible. It would be wrong to do this with another person while at the same time being "detached" from that person. Impersonal, empty stuff.

I don't like to go in-depth on this subject, not on this board. I posted a link to an article about it. If you want to address my opinion and tell me it's wrong, you'll have to tell me where the article goes wrong.

Justin: I think they are commitment-phobes. I think that this detachment stuff being somehow good is just an excuse. Or maybe they honestly believe it and are simply deceived.

I hope Lucas wasn't saying that all this was good.

[Angel Starmaster]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif Whew! You guys have really heated this discussion up.

Here are my thoughts;

Okay, the Jedi respect and honor life right? They would save lives rather than take them. Okay, so who'se to say for the Jedi that sex is the act of celebrating life? Did GL ever say they could or could not use contraceptives? Just because someone may partake in casual sex it doesn't mean that the act itself holds no meaning for them.

I personally believe in casual sex. I believe that two people who are good friends can have sex without truely committing to one another. Now, it's not something you can do with just anyone. You can't just walk up to any random person and say "Nice shoes, wanna f**k?" But if you have someone in your life that you trust, CARE ABOUT, and want to share in an intimate act with that person, I believe that there's no harm in that. Sex will only change a relationship if you let it. If sex is the highest form of pleasure for you, then you obviously need to broaden your horizons. Sex should not under any circumstances be the only base of a relationship. If it is, the relationship will crumble quickly.

So that being said, why can't a Jedi have a commitment outside of the Jedi?
Well, let's put it this way. The Jedi are capable of vastly more destructive forces than your average human. If I lose my child or loved one, and I lose it, lawmen could just as easily pick me off with a sniper or what have you.
Not so with a Jedi. What are the police going to do when their forces get swept up into a Force-storm and erradicaded.
An out-of-control Jedi is a walking Catastrophe.

Now, look at the Columbine High School shootings. What kind of an image did the "Trench Coat Mafia" paint for other young people who preferred Trench coats as their garment of choice? For a good six months after ward I couldn't walk into a shopping mall wearing one, let alone my High school. People would fear for their lives if they saw me walking down the street wearing it.
What kind of image would a fallen Jedi paint of the rest? If you were a SW citizen, (not having the insight and understanding that we the SW fans have from seeing the films) what would you think if you saw a Jedi knight walking down the street tearing buildings off their foundations, killing dozens of people with a thought.
What would you think of the next Jedi you bumped into?
I don't care how open minded you may claim to be, it will always be right in the back of your head that this Jedi might snap on you.

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate... Hate leads to suffering. Yoda wasn't talking about the suffering of the person hating. Rather he was talking about the suffering of those around the hater.

Resricting the relationships of a Jedi is a method to help them maintain control of themselves. That's why casual sex is allowed among them. They have the discipline to understand that they cannot dedicate their lives to one person but they can enjoy time with a person intimately.

Besides, would you want to be commited to someone who is never there? Yes, you may love them, but there are more people to love and learn from. Love the person while they are there but don't limit them because of their commitment to something else.

I hope that makes sense.
*style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[Meche]

I feel like I discovered an alternate reality. Like I said man... address the points in that article.

[Justin]

if you have someone in your life that you trust, CARE ABOUT, and want to share in an intimate act with that person, I believe that there's no harm in that

Angel, that's not casual sex.

[Angel Starmaster]

Perhaps,...from a certain point of view. But that wasn't my point. I was trying to present my speculation as to why GL would say that a Jedi could have sex but not be commited to another.

Granted there's a good possiblity that I've missed something and I'm talking out my a$$ too. If I've mistated a fact, then by all means correct me.

But I've tried to maintain clarity about what was my opinion and what remains fact.

I dunno. Maybe I just didn't get my point across. Oh well. Sorry Meche, I actually was trying to debate the thread topic. I guess I must have deveated with all my analogies.
I guess I'll shut my yap now. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unhappy.gif