Dr. Dave Guest Editorial - Jedi Council Traitor?

[T-bone]

http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/guest_editor...ave_traitor.htm (http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/guest_editorials/drdave_traitor.htm)

[mtilden]

Just read it..... and you haven't persuaded me, I still seriously doubt that there will be a traitor in the Jedi Council. If there were going to be one, then we should have received some hints about it by now, and I haven't noticed any.

[Darth Vegas]

There is a traitor, and his name is Sifo-Dyas. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[T-bone]

Originally posted by mtilden@May 10 2003, 02:26 PM
Just read it..... and you haven't persuaded me, I still seriously doubt that there will be a traitor in the Jedi Council. If there were going to be one, then we should have received some hints about it by now, and I haven't noticed any.
1. I didn't write it.
2. I'm not trying to pursuade anyone by posting it.

Dave is a great writer and people love his editorials.
Just FYI.

[Darth Vegas]

Yes he is, I especially liked the one he did on Parthenogenesis.

[Brian]

Interesting artilce. He suggests that the Jedi Council traitor is Oppo Rancisisis. I want to know where the hell was he during the Battle of Geonosis also? I have no idea if there is a traitor in the Council, but the article does give valid clues hinting that there might be one.

[Darth Vegas]

Oppo wasn't in the battle, but neither was Eeth Koth, Depa Bilaba (sp?), Adi Gallia and many others.

The only council members present (that we saw at least) were Mace, Ki-Adi, Plo, Coleman Trebor, Yoda and Shaak Ti.

Oppo not being at the battle doesn't constitute him a traitor, especially in the absense of the other Council members.

[Brian]

Well, yeah, but it's still interesting.

BTW, Adi was in the battle (in the EU anyway). Check the battles pages (http://www.starwarz.com/clonewarseu/battles.htm) at TCWUS--month of Attack of the Clones.

[DblDwn]

"Yoda states, "Only a Jedi could have erased those files." The poll mentioned above specifically refers to the Jedi Council, hinting that the traitor is not just a Jedi, but also a Jedi council member."

Quotes like this above and people still find it more likely that Jedi Master Big Bird is the one and NOT Sifo-Dyas? It's all so obvious yet only Bond, or whatever your name is this week, and myself have the abilities to both accept AND agree with it.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@May 12 2003, 12:18 PM
Well, yeah, but it's still interesting.

BTW, Adi was in the battle (in the EU anyway). Check the battles pages (http://www.starwarz.com/clonewarseu/battles.htm) at TCWUS--month of Attack of the Clones.
Yeah that was the Jedi Starfighter Video game.

[Darth Vegas]

Why Oppo wasn't there....I get the distinct feeling that he's not a fighter....

[RollaFett]

Uh, Boss...shouldn't this be in the 'Spoilers' section?
Speculation and spoilers are not the same, to be sure, but in this board, there's certainly a very fine line, wouldn't you agree?
Non-spoilers should be about what we all know for fact, IMO.

[T-bone]

let the people who are posting in here decide.

Spoiler or No Spoiler - vote here and Golla will take action style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
You asked for it, pretty boy.

[Darth Vegas]

To be nice I'd say put it in the spoiler section, but most of the people peaking in this forum look at the spoiler forum too.

[RollaFett]

Not everybody though. I know I don't.

T, as far as the 'pretty boy' remark, I didn't get the gig. Just found out yesterday. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[Brian]

Check this (http://www.starwarz.com/clonewarseu/news/index.htm#may13_a) for an interesting story on the Jedi Council members during the time of the Battle of Geonosis.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by DblDwn@May 12 2003, 08:54 PM
"Yoda states, "Only a Jedi could have erased those files." The poll mentioned above specifically refers to the Jedi Council, hinting that the traitor is not just a Jedi, but also a Jedi council member."
But isn't it a possibility that Yoda simply used 'Jedi' in place of 'force-user' because he never imagined it possible for a Sith to walk among them undetected? I know he could have been refering to passcodes or clearance or something like that, but it's possible that the records were 'force-protected', in which case a Sith could erase the records. Or a jedi-turned-sith like Tyranus.

[James]

Interesting... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

[Master Patton]

Originally posted by borgmatrix@May 21 2003, 03:52 PM

But isn't it a possibility that Yoda simply used 'Jedi' in place of 'force-user' because he never imagined it possible for a Sith to walk among them undetected? I know he could have been refering to passcodes or clearance or something like that, but it's possible that the records were 'force-protected', in which case a Sith could erase the records. Or a jedi-turned-sith like Tyranus.
In The Jedi Apprentice book's, Qui-Gon's first jedi padawan snuk into the jedi temple and cuased a whole lot of trouble. So that could very well be what happened!

[JediBendu]

Obviously the traitor has to be Ki-Adi-Mundi.
Dr Dave (whom my adoration is now becoming a little worrying) gives it away - the final fifth (ie the 12th around the wheel) will be Pythagoras' Comma. Taking the Jesus myth, Judas sat next to Jesus in the last supper (ok not a round table but who knows). Taking the Authur myth, Lancelot would have sat next to Author, being the most trusted.
In both tpm and aotc, Ki-Adi sits next to the right of Yoda, which is the 12th position when going clockwise around the circle. Mace, as Dave points out, is being built as the most trusted, hence his position as number 1 on the wheel would indicate he is the furtherest from being the traitor.
Further, Ki-Adi and Mace are the only council members with speaking roles in both films and we know Ki-Adi is going to be in the third. Introducing the traitor as someone who has not spoken would not have the same dramatic effect as with Ki-Adi as the audience has already identified with him (albeit in a limited way).
Finally, the concept of cutting of the ear of the traitor would be a lot easier with Ki-Adi style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

The editorial could also be looked as a possible explanation of what the Balance of the Force is - balance is also harmony, and pure harmony cannot be achieved [in a 3 dimensional reality] whilst Pythagoras' Comma exists. Anakin's existence [as opposed to his actions] sets in motion a chain of events which closes the gap, bringing the harmony to both the 3d reality and the hyperdimenional Force.

it's also a bit freaky that procession cycles are also in tune (hehe) with the Comma

[WJTW]

The reason why the other Jedi Council members from Ep 1 is not in Ep 2 because they have limited term years. Once their term is up, off they go. Mace Windu and Yoda are the only permanent members of the Jedi Council, and possibly Ki-Adi-Mundi as well? Or Adi-Mundi probably entered the Council later, and the rest has been there for more than 10 years.

Hmm, does the traitor really have to be in the Jedi Council at all? If not, than the traitor is already known. Dooku. Why must it actually be the Council? It has never been stated to be a must. And... he could have entered the premises secretly and erased Kamino.
Or Anakin? In Episode 3, he did slaughter the Jedi. They trusted him to bring balance to the Force, and yet, he turned against them. If that is not being a traitor, I don't know what that is.

I don't know why people insist it is Syfo-Dyas. He is dead, let him be. There is so little information about him being a traitor (and a shapeshifter, to boot!). In fact, we have so little information about him! It is as wild as claiming aliens exists and you have seen them, talk to them, but know very little about their physical appearance, etc.

Sorry, dbldawn, if I sound like a doubting thomas, whatever you want to call. But this is just too unbelievable.

WJTW

[JediBendu]

Hmm, does the traitor really have to be in the Jedi Council at all? If not, than the traitor is already known. Dooku. Why must it actually be the Council? It has never been stated to be a must. And... he could have entered the premises secretly and erased Kamino.

you could have at least read Dr Dave's article - yes it has to be from the council because according to Egyptian, Authurian and Christian myths, the traiter exists as Pythagoras' Comma

GL has more or less used every ancient mythologic device in star wars so far, the existence of a traitor would also follow suite

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by WJTW@Jun 14 2003, 05:44 AM
I don't know why people insist it is Syfo-Dyas.
Because he's not dead, he's Darth Sidious, the VERY obvious reason why his name is so similar to Sidious, the name was originally Sido-Dyas, the only logical conclusion given the evidence we have to this point is that they're the same.

If he was really dead, Obi-Wan wouldn't have said "I was under the impression he was killed before that..." he would absolutely be certain he was dead and therefore couldn't have ordered the clones, and Yoda and Mace would've given a confirmation, they did not, they very well might know something about Sifo-Dyas that the rest of the Jedi do not.

George Lucas said on the ATOC DVD commentary that he wanted to have the mystery of who erased the archives, and who ordered the clone there in the movie, but not so strongly that you would question who it is, of course he means the general audience, they're clueless.

But alot of the fans have figured out that S-I-F-O-D-Y-A-S = S-I-D-I-O-U-S, because it's just so plain obvious.

You apparantly have not come to that conclusion yet. :whatsthat:

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Jun 13 2003, 03:55 AM
Obviously the traitor has to be Ki-Adi-Mundi.
Can you come up with a better reason besides his council seat that he is the traitor?

I don't see him having a role of such importance, I see him as dying a quick death either in the final battle of the Clone Wars, or at Darth Vader's sword.

Taking your 12th seat theory into account..."Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas is still a leading member of the Jedi council is he not?" Just prior to the events of TPM, he was, he could have been on that same seat as, we're told this Jedi ordered the Clones, there's some doubt that he is really dead, only a Jedi could have erased those files, why not have the same Jedi who ordered the clones (and that also happens to be Darth Sidious IMHO) be this traitor? Why not have him be the one that erased the archives?

Of course, in order for Sifo-Dyas to be Sidious it isn't vital that he erased the archives, it could be someone that is still in the Jedi Order, but why complicated things?

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by WJTW@Jun 14 2003, 05:44 AM
The reason why the other Jedi Council members from Ep 1 is not in Ep 2 because they have limited term years. Once their term is up, off they go.
That's EU, I don't think that's really the case in the movies, the only Jedi that were replaced in the films are Jedi that we're told were killed before AOTC, everyone else on the Council was the same.

[JediBendu]

Can you come up with a better reason besides his council seat that he is the traitor?

*groan*

that's the whole point of the Pythagoras' Comma - it's the twelve fifth! The 'tiny discrepency between the ideal and the real'. If GL is trying to transcribe ancient myth into modern form (and Bond you would be the first to admit that he has a history of it) then he will use a visual representation to convey it ie the 12 position around the council table, next to Yoda/Jesus/Authur, and to enhance the effect of the tragedy, he's told us who it is in the first film, tell us what he is in the second, then show us how he betrays the jedi in the final.


Taking your 12th seat theory into account..."Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas is still a leading member of the Jedi council is he not?" Just prior to the events of TPM, he was, he could have been on that same seat as, we're told this Jedi ordered the Clones, there's some doubt that he is really dead, only a Jedi could have erased those files, why not have the same Jedi who ordered the clones (and that also happens to be Darth Sidious IMHO) be this traitor? Why not have him be the one that erased the archives?

for all we know Ki-Adi used Sifo to order the clones, killed him, and took his seat on the council for the trouble - it's still just speculation.
Sifo-Dyas is dead, his name was used by the traitor to place an order coming from within the council - Kamino is waayy out on the Rim with a policy of isolation, they wouldn't know nor care whether it was the real Sifo placing the order, or just an official looking datapad with the request from someone purporting to be his assistant.
Ki-Adi could both place the order and erase the Jedi archives without arousing any suspicion. The Kamino's aren't exactly going to question who wants the order, just as long as their pocket book is rather large style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Jun 15 2003, 03:41 AM
Sifo-Dyas is dead
Sifo is believed to be dead, and there is doubt that he really is, afterall the Jedi were so sure that the Sith were extinct, they were completely wrong about that, so what makes you so sure that they know for certain Sifo-Dyas is dead?

I would be inclined to think he faked his death, the similarity between his name and Sidious' is too much to overlook, there's a reason for it, has to be.

Your theory sounds very convincing being that GL is all about history and stuff, but there's nothing in the movies to indicate this, that was my only point, it could still very well be the case, and we'd all go home happy.

This traitor we're talking about that erased the archived could very well be a current member of the council, but there is aboslutely no doubt that Darth Sidious ordered the Clone Army, that being the case, I find it highly unlikely that he would just happen to pick the name of a Jedi (who's name is almost identicle to his own) to order the Clones, I think it's much more interesting if Sifo-Dyas is Sidious, I think that all of the evidence we have is pointing in that direction, if Darth Vader can be a former Jedi who is able to keep that identity a secret, so can Darth Sidious.

I could very well imagine that the history records showed that the Sith were extinct 1000 years prior to TPM, Anakin Skywalker had died sometime after the Clone Wars, and that the historical records show that Sifo-Dyas died sometime before TPM, but neither of those Jedi were really dead IMHO, they were dead only from a "certain point of view".

[WJTW]

Yes, I am aware of the almost sound-alike of the name... I removed that part of my argument because it seemed unneccessary (and it included silly things like Ed and Edd... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif)
Well... so what if it sounded alike? It might be a way for Geroge to distinct between the two, just so the clueless audience wouldn't be messed up. George said it was a mystery, and he meant everyone, not just audience. The similarity between the name is too simple.
It is like the antagonist named Ed and the protagonist named Edd... I would choose a diff. name to distinct them. Maybe Fedd instead. What's the big deal here?


And just because that Dr. Dave said it has to be the Jedi Council and provided very interesting theories that are eerily accurate doesn't mean we can throw out the idea of the traitor being OUTSIDE the Jedi Council. Accurate, though his theories are, but they are just that... theories. Why must all of us insist it is just in the Jedi Council?


Back to Syfo-Dyas. He isn't a shapeshifter. Where would he get the time to become a jedi council member if he and Sidious are equal? If Palpatine = Sidious = Syfo-Dyas, he would not have the time to attend all these council meetings! Those council meetings seem to last forever... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
From what we know, S-D is a council member between Ep1 and 2. That time is when palpatine becomes Chancellor. Now, if Palpatine = sidious = Syfo-Dyas = shapeshifter, where in the world would he be able to attend the Jedi Council meetings? I'm sure they hold such meets many times a day. The Kaminoes did mentioned that Jedi Master Syfo-Dyas is a leading member of the Jedi Council (which Obi-Wan did not disagree to.).
So, how will Palpatine/Syfo-Dyas be able to find the time to attend the boring Jedi Council meets and still be in his Chancellor's(sp?) office? A Chancellor's job is not easy, and he is definitely busy most of the time, finding ways to stop the separatists, as well as plotting out his plans to rule the entire Republic, among many other things. He will have no time to become/shapeshift into Syfo-Dyas and attend the long and boring Jedi Council sessions!
Yes, we have seen Sidious around briefly, showing that Palpatine did indeed have some time to come out of his office. But no, my friend, that doesn't mean he had a lot of time. He was just around briefly in Ep2. Of course, we wouldn't truly know how much time had past and how long Sidious had been there, but I believe he was there just for a while. He sensed Dooku coming, donned his Sidious hood, and proceeded to the building and waited for him. Also, at that time, he was probably proceeding to the viewing of the Clone Troopers, and was just 'on his way'.


So, from here, I can draw 2 conclusions:
1) Palpatine = Sidious BUT !=(unequal) Syfo-Dyas
2) Palpatine != Sidious = Syfo-Dyas

Hmm... I think I have thought of more conclusions... bah!


Any comments?

WJTW

[Darth Whaler]

This is a spur-of-the-moment reply...I haven't really thought this through carefully, I'm just throwing it out for argument. Maybe someone already mentioned this and I missed it. If so, sorry!

Is it possible that Anakin was the one who erased the records from the archive? Could he have done so acting on a request from Palpatine? He obviously respects Palpy and would probably do something that he asks, even if he's not sure why he's doing it. Maybe Palpy asked him to do this favor for the benefit of the republic and told him not to tell anyone.

Unlikely, but possible...or am I way off here.

PS This is not what I believe happened. Just an idea for discussion.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by WJTW@Jun 15 2003, 09:25 AM
The similarity between the name is too simple.
It is like the antagonist named Ed and the protagonist named Edd... I would choose a diff. name to distinct them. Maybe Fedd instead. What's the big deal here?



That argument could only be applied if Lucas had similar names showing up all over the place, and if Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with ordering the Clone Army (which is obviously part is Sidious' plan).

Are you honestly going to tell me that in the SW universe Sidious used that name to order the army, and it just happened to be so similar to his own name?

That's just silly. If that were the case (that Sidious used the name of a dead Jedi to order the clones) Lucas wouldn't have purposefully made the names so similar, he especially would never have originally intended the name to be Sido-Dyas.

And I think we can all agree that it was Darth Sidious that ordered the Clones, that's a no-brainer.


Is it possible that Anakin was the one who erased the records from the archive?

Anakin was just starting training when the Clone were ordered and the archived were erased (assuming of course that Kamino would be erased frm the archives around the same time).

I find it hard to believe that any Jedi under the rank of Master could have done such a thing.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by WJTW@Jun 15 2003, 09:25 AM
Back to Syfo-Dyas. He isn't a shapeshifter.
*sigh* :whatsthat:

That's your opinion, you do not know that.


Where would he get the time to become a jedi council member if he and Sidious are equal? If Palpatine = Sidious = Syfo-Dyas, he would not have the time to attend all these council meetings!

How do you know he wouldn't have had time?

Who said he had to be all of those things full time?

Who said he was even masquerading as Palpatine at the time he was on the council?


So, how will Palpatine/Syfo-Dyas be able to find the time to attend the boring Jedi Council meets and still be in his Chancellor's(sp?) office?

Sifo-Dyas was not on the Jedi Council (or even known to be alive for that matter) when Palpatine was the Supreme Chancellor.


From what we know, S-D is a council member between Ep1 and 2.

Actually, no, it was before Episode 1. That just logical, we never saw him on the Council during Episode 1 (which is precisely 10 years before AOTC, the clones were ordered ten years ago and Sifo-Dyas was presumed dead around the same time, if not before that time), and there were only two council members that perished between Episode 1 and 2, and they were replaced by Coleman Trebor and Shaak Ti.

I really don't feel like continuing to answer any more of your questions, if you have anymore, please, go through the forums, dig up old threads, I'm sure you'll find them there.

And while you're at it, you should read this (http://www.episode-x.com/editorials/sithhistory.shtml).

[JediBendu]

I really don't feel like continuing to answer any more of your questions, if you have anymore, please, go through the forums, dig up old threads, I'm sure you'll find them there.

sorry mate, the whole shapeshifter/sidious is sifo doesn't ring true with Dr Dave's editorial - can you refute his argument that GL will use a common mythological theme to incorporate the traitor into the tale?

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Jun 16 2003, 12:02 AM

I really don't feel like continuing to answer any more of your questions, if you have anymore, please, go through the forums, dig up old threads, I'm sure you'll find them there.

sorry mate, the whole shapeshifter/sidious is sifo doesn't ring true with Dr Dave's editorial
No it doesn't, but Dr. Dave's editorial, is just that, it's speculation.


- can you refute his argument that GL will use a common mythological theme to incorporate the traitor into the tale?

No, not at all, wasn't even trying to, I was simply answering WJTW's questions, since has so many of them.

My comments had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I think that GL could use this historical/mythological theme to some degree, but I don't think it would be very dramatic, the only members of the Jedi Council that we've really come to appreciate, are Yoda and Mace, and the traitor won't be either one of them.

I could imagine the council being shocked by discovering Palpatine's true identity, and by learning that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader, Darth Sidious' new apprentice, and if there is another traitor I just don't think it will be very significant.

[Darth Whaler]

Originally posted by TK-007@Jun 16 2003, 07:38 AM

Anakin was just starting training when the Clone were ordered and the archived were erased (assuming of course that Kamino would be erased frm the archives around the same time).

I find it hard to believe that any Jedi under the rank of Master could have done such a thing.


Good point. You're probably right. I suppose Anakin could have done it later in his Jedi career (like 2 years prior to AOTC or something) but like you said, the records would most likely have been erased around the same time the order was placed.

[WJTW]

Oh, yes... Syfo-Dyas was before TPM? This might make sense...

But does that mean the Clone Army was ordered way before TPM, since Syfo-Dyas was supposed to be dead 10 years ago, which means he was on the Jedi Council before TPM, since '10 years ago' will mean before TPM?

Ok, it made sense.

However, the name thing. If Sidious = Syfo-Dyas was meant to be a secret, how would we know that Lucas had changed the name from Sydo-Dyas to Syfo-Dyas? Who, in his/her right mind in the production crew, will mention the change. Sure, he/she might not have said the reason, but it is so obvious.
Lucas could have stuck with that name.

Still, Syfo-Dyas = Sidious? Nah.

WJTW

[die-jarjar-die]

From watching AOTC several times I had come to the conclusion that Dooku & Sidious were working in cahoots from years before AOTC's setting;

Dooku left the order shortly after qui gons death (which we know to be 10 yrs previous to AOTC), Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clones less than 10 yrs ago & is believed dead by the Jedi Council.

Dooku (using the guise Tyrannus) hires Jango Fett as the source DNA for the clone army.

You may be wondering where im going but bare with me.

I think it's safe to assume that Sifo-Dyas is none other than Sidious, but..... what if it's actually all Dooku's doing? Dooku would have the knowledge of Sifo's death & as a (former) Jedi Master would have access to the Jedi Library & all other database's.

Perhaps at Sidious's command, Dooku has betrayed the Order by impersonating a deceased Jedi to order an Army, that the Republic were locked in turmoil over whether to authorize or not, remove all evidence from the Archives of the existence of Kamino, which as Yoda clearly states in AOTC:

"only a Jedi could erase"

I think it's safe to assume that Palpatine will disclose who authorized (in Secret) the creation of the Clone Army either sometime between Ep's 2 & 3 or during 3. The inevitable backlash of this revelation will be a complete distrust of the Jedi, for it will be they that will be blamed for the Commencement of the Clone Wars that will devastate the Galaxy, and would inevitably lead to the Jedi Order falling from grace & being hunted as war criminals (this can be backed up by the recent report that Obi Wan will be harboured as a fugitive during Ep3) leading to the Jedi Purge.

If Obi Wan had never begun the investigation that lead to the discovery of Kamino, he would never have encountered Jango, discovered Geonosis, been captured & the Jedi would never have started the Clone Wars by attempting to rescue Obi Wan!

This chain of events, IMO, commenced by Dooku, lead me to believe Dooku to be the "traitor". His actions betraying all that he stood for as a Jedi & ultimately leading to the Orders destruction.

I like to think of Dooku as a tragic, fallen anti hero. Does he not reveal all to Obi Wan during AOTC? Only to have his statements (confession) discarded by Yoda as "lies, creating mistrust". Could this speech have been made in all honesty, a last ditched attempt to try & avoid the War & untold bloodshed & destruction, perhaps an attempt to retain some dignity & perhaps implying that some loyalties still existed towards his old Order?

[Vibroblade]

You lost me somewhere in that disertation 'Bendu. Was that off the top of your head, or have you been altering your level of consciousness again?

[Obi-Wan]

I do believe Sifo-Dyas is Sidious, but isn't it just a little too obvious that Sidious & Sifo-Dyas' names are way too much alike? Why would GL point out something like that so much? But I'll still believe Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and that he faked his death before the events of TPM. As for the traitor, it couldn't have been Adi Gallia cuz she was in the Battle Of Geonosis, but in space. Eeth Koth died in that battle and I'm not sure what Depa was up to. Oppo is possible, but Ki-Adi just doesn't seem like a traitor. He seems too much into the ways of the Jedi.