What I dislike most about RotS

[finarvyn]

I have a pet peeve about Revenge of the Sith. What bothers me the most is that George Lucas filmed the two trilogies in the wrong order and then when he fused them together in the middle he got it all wrong.

What I mean is that a person watching the movies in the "correct" order I-VI won't get any of the surpise by things like "I'm your father, Luke." I remember when I first saw that scene decades ago in the theater and I had such surprise and shock. My friends and I argued for months about whether or not this was going to be true or some misrepresentation by Vader.

In filming RotS, Lucas went out of his way to show Padme give birth to twins and then announced to the audience their names. This means that anyone watching A New Hope for the first time will see Luke and Leia and say "Oh, yeah. Those are the twins, right?"

No suspense.

Dropped the ball on that one.

[Blizzard]

Look on the bright side... now when Leia gives Luke a big fat kiss in ESB everyone will scream "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww!"

[Doze]

I see you point but you did not offer a solution to the problem, even in retrospect. You are just pointing out that the house is on fire and then standing there watching the house burn down. There for you end up sounding like your just another fan, upset that Lucas screwed up their childhood memories. Even though we were the ones that kept bugging him to make the PT in the first place.

[Darill Cyllem]

I'm not sure the PT is meant to be watched before ever having seen the OT, despite the episode numbers. In TPM, several things are already taken for granted as "known" about the sw galaxy (e.g. what Jedi are, the nature of the Force), presumably because we've seen the OT.

As for what I dislike most about ROTS... I guess I'd have to say Anakin's dialog during and after the duel with Obi-Wan. Just didn't quite grab me, I guess. Happily, there's plenty to like about it, though!

[finarvyn]

I see you point but you did not offer a solution to the problem, even in retrospect.
Oh, you wanted a solution? I assumed that the point of this board was to generate some discussion. :doh:

My solution is simple and I thought my OP actually suggested what I was talking about: Lucas could have built up the whole pregnancy thing and then (1) kept the fact that there were twins a secret, and (2) never actually mentioned their names.

In other words, simply leave the viewer on the brink where the pregnancy is going to happen but don't share with us the details. He didn't need to slap us in the face with "Say, Bail, why don't you take one of these twins (who I will name Leia) and hide her on your planet of Alderaan where she will be raised as your foster child until she encounters her twin brother (who is named Luke) a few years from now in the next movie." He could simply have built up to the pregnancy and let it hang, so that someone watching the movies "in order" wouldn't have that detail spoiled.

[borgmatrix]

What I mean is that a person watching the movies in the "correct" order I-VI won't get any of the surpise by things like "I'm your father, Luke."
You might lose the impact of "I am your Father", but you gain the impact of seeing the Jedi's Chosen One fall to the DS, the Jedi Order annihilated, and the formation of the Empire, and victory for the Sith.

In complaining about how the OT is robbed of impact, you've completely ignored that the PT is robbed impact as well, since we knew going in that Anakin becomes Vader, the Jedi Order will be wiped out, and Palpatine will become Emperor.

If one watches I-VI in that order, they more than make up for the losing the impact of ESB by the sheer shock of what happens in ROTS.

[Wicket]

I'm not sure the PT is meant to be watched before ever having seen the OT, despite the episode numbers. In TPM, several things are already taken for granted as "known" about the sw galaxy (e.g. what Jedi are, the nature of the Force), presumably because we've seen the OT.

As for what I dislike most about ROTS... I guess I'd have to say Anakin's dialog during and after the duel with Obi-Wan. Just didn't quite grab me, I guess. Happily, there's plenty to like about it, though!

Agreed. I like RoTS but some of the dialogue in it is really quite poor. Especially in that scene. Otherwise a great film though.

I wouldn`t recommend to anyone that they watch the PT before they see the OT.

[Blizzard]

I wouldn`t recommend to anyone that they watch the PT before they see the OT.Neither would I.

[Jacen Solo]

Nor I.

By the way, it's great to be back again! I'm Jacen Solo, formerly Luuke Skywalker. Let's say I was reborn into being a Star Wars fan. It's good to be back among you guys again. :yo:

In complaining about how the OT is robbed of impact, you've completely ignored that the PT is robbed impact as well, since we knew going in that Anakin becomes Vader, the Jedi Order will be wiped out, and Palpatine will become Emperor.

Perhaps, but what makes it so exciting and captivating is seeing how it happens. When Anakin Skywalker finalized his character arc in Episode III, I never could have imagine some of the things he did on his journey to the dark side. Count Dooku, his first cold-blooded murder. Anakin and Sidious at the opera, and the real reason Anakin decided to walk that path: his family. Anakin saved Sidious from Mace Windu to save Padme, his family; while in the OT, he kills Sidious to save Luke. With Padme's dying words -- "There is good in him ... I know there's still ..." -- we learn that Luke remembers his mother more than he (or we) realized. Leia remembers her mother through the images and feelings, while Luke remembers her through his innate belief that there is still good in him despite even Obi-Wan Kenobi's warning that there is not.

IMO, I would say that the PT is not as robbed as impact as that, Matrix. We get to see a cool story with some neat storylines and new characters, make connections with the OT by even the smallest of things, and witness the unfolding of what we already know happens, but in details that still manage to surprise and draw us in.

[borgmatrix]

Perhaps, but what makes it so exciting and captivating is seeing how it happens.
Okay, but I would say that applies to ESB as well. If one watches I-III first, then they go into the OT not only wondering how things turn out and if the Empire will be defeated, but also wondering how it will be that Luke and Leia discover the truth.

My dad's not big on sci-fi/fantasy kind of stuff usually (or anything that's "farfetched") and he hadn't seen SW. So we watched ep II on dvd, then saw ROTS at the theater the next day, and then watched the OT on dvd over the next couple weeks. His driving interest was waiting to see when and how Luke discovered the truth. And, of course, to also see how the Rebellion fared against the Empire.

IV-VI followed by I-III might be the best order. But I think regardless of which trilogy is seen first, there are pluses and minuses. Impact is gained/lost either way.

[Darill Cyllem]

^It's really interesting to hear about people's actual experiences watching the episodes in chronological order (as opposed to release order)... gives me a slightly new way to look at the story.

[Raganork8]

Okay, but I would say that applies to ESB as well. If one watches I-III first, then they go into the OT not only wondering how things turn out and if the Empire will be defeated, but also wondering how it will be that Luke and Leia discover the truth.

My dad's not a big on sci-fi/fantasy kind of stuff usually (or anything that's "farfetched") and he hadn't seen SW. So we watched ep II on dvd, then saw ROTS at the theater the next day, and then watched the OT on dvd over the next couple weeks. His driving interest was waiting to see when and how Luke discovered the truth. And, of course, to also see how the Rebellion fared against the Empire.

IV-VI followed by I-III might be the best order. But I think regardless of which trilogy is seen first, there are pluses and minuses. Impact is gained/lost either way.


You have a great point here.

In my opinion the PT lacked any surprise. The story never seemed to be centered enough to provide for enough dramatics. Yes I'd like to see how Anakin Became Vader; but, I'm not going to lie; when I saw ROTS I came out not really that upset or emotionally impacted by the transformation.


The PT seemed to flow better. A series of believable events (for that universe) and believable reactions that lead to a big reveal. The revelation of Vader being Luke's Father will always surpass the Death Star plans.

It's hard to really explain why; but, there seemed to be no soul in the characters in the PT; the situations were sad...yes; but, at the same time; I knew how it was going to end and when we got that end I felt we as an audience weren't given anymore than what we already knew.

A big example is the idea of Padme:

What we knew: She was not in the OT therefore she must die either in ROTS or between ROTS and ANH; she must also give birth


What happened: she gave birth and died...

While it's not bad; I thought there was going to be something a little deeper than that happening; that corny excuse of her losing the will to live will always haunt the series to me. I think back to ROTJ and when Leia claims to have remembered her real mother who died when she was very young and I say: "Well Gee what a story that would have been if Padme went into hiding watching the horrors Anakin was doing from somewhere safe"

That could have been incredibly dramatic and could have highlighted the two character's love better than simply having them fawning over one another on top of rooftops when a war is going on.


Another example and some may see this as nitpicking; but, this really bothered me.

The exclusion of Qui Gon Jinn and Yoda's landing on Dagobah.

George claims the story is about the Skywalkers so therefore Yoda's landing would have taken away from that idea...


Seriously? It was 15 seconds long and when I saw that on the deleted scenes I was soooooo happy. I can't explain the impact that had on me; that's how he got there? and I think it would have worked better for TESB when Obi Wan tells him to go to Dagohbah and find Yoda; Watching them in order; yes we know he says he's going to go into exile; but, there's no good reason not to show it. It doesn't add any intrigue and severely cuts a character short (no pun intended)

The Qui-Gon thing also baffles me. Now considering I didn't find Obi Vs. Ani too climatic I was hoping for some kind of dramatic revelation or some sense of hope in the last minutes (and I'm sorry looking at two sleeping kids didn't do it) So it was a bit odd when they didn't add two or three lines for Qui-Gon. What a great way to connect these two movies to TPM which seems to be in its own category. I've always felt TPM was a forethought to AOTC; EVERYONE looks different, suddenly Count Dooku is a name and the C.I.S. comes; it felt too sudden. So to include Qui-Gon (a character I think that is universally adored by fans) would have given us nostalgia either for the character or for Liam Neeson's sexy voice; but, either way it would have been profound to see the former master teaching the grand master and his former student who is also a master now. And it would have been REALLY interesting to see how Qui-Gon reacted to Anakin's turning. HE wanted to train the boy and Obi-Wan did it for him; something lost in AOTC and ROTS, so he's the real catalyst of the story much like Leia was the real catalyst for the OT.

Ok thats my rant...sorry

[Talcy]

"No. I am your father," will always be one of the biggest reveals in cinema history. Watching the originals first is always the way to do it for me. The prequels are a lot of fun but that reveal simply slams everything else in all 6 films into next week. Then again, you'd have to be dealing with someone who is either very young or has spent their life under a rock not to know that Vader is Luke's father.

I wonder if there are many folks out there who don't know that and for whom the reveal would have the same effect it had on us elder yins.

[finarvyn]

In complaining about how the OT is robbed of impact, you've completely ignored that the PT is robbed impact as well, since we knew going in that Anakin becomes Vader, the Jedi Order will be wiped out, and Palpatine will become Emperor.
Also true. It might have been nice if RotS had NOT shown that Anakin became Vader. They could have left a "cliffhanger" whereby he was lying there nearing death and badly mangled ... and then later on when you realize that Vader is also Anakin it would have more impact.

Don't get me wrong -- I understand that you can't really "undo" time and pretend that you haven't seen IV-V-VI when you sit down to watch I-II-III, but it seems like it would have been nice to have a more smooth transition whereby not all of the "spoilers" would have been clearly explained in RotS.

That way, maybe a future viewer could experience I through VI in chronological order and have it flow better.

[Raganork8]

Also true. It might have been nice if RotS had NOT shown that Anakin became Vader. They could have left a "cliffhanger" whereby he was lying there nearing death and badly mangled ... and then later on when you realize that Vader is also Anakin it would have more impact.

Don't get me wrong -- I understand that you can't really "undo" time and pretend that you haven't seen IV-V-VI when you sit down to watch I-II-III, but it seems like it would have been nice to have a more smooth transition whereby not all of the "spoilers" would have been clearly explained in RotS.

That way, maybe a future viewer could experience I through VI in chronological order and have it flow better.

a good idea; but, only if you watched them in order.

If Lucas would have done that people would be up and arms more than they are now about ROTS.

[lovelucas]

part of the magic of ANH is jumping into the middle of the story....literally. First scene - we don't know anything about a Vader, a Yoda, an Anakin. We're in the middle of a chase scene - but we know the bad guys are after the good guys who are outnumbered and overwhelmed.

Of course something came before. THAT's what's so cool about the order - we wonder for decades about the good man that was Darth Vader before.......and the Jedi Order that had kept the peace for thousands of years.......what happened?

IMO - it's one of the best parts of the saga...the way, and the ORDER it was made.

Its a treasure... Never will happen again.

[Talcy]

True. Star Wars (I still can't call it ANH!) seems just so pure. We jump straight into a dire and desperate situation and the story unfolds perfectly. Everything is so simple - escape, discover the wonders of the universe, rescue the girl, stop the bad guy, save the Rebellion. The villains are villains, the heroes are heroes.

[Corandra Starshadow]

Seeing the prequels first would rob Vader's reveal of it's impact. When we who saw it when there was only the OT heard Vader claim to be Luke's father, we were as shocked as Luke. Now, to those who watch the PT first, the reveal is a dramatic irony. Like when Obi_Wan says to Anakin "Why do I have the feeling you're going to be the death of me?" When I heard that for the first time, I chuckled, along with most of the audience. If I had seen the PT first, I wouldn't have gotten it. I wonder if that would even have been in the PT if the PT had been made first.

[finarvyn]

True. Star Wars (I still can't call it ANH!) seems just so pure. We jump straight into a dire and desperate situation and the story unfolds perfectly. Everything is so simple - escape, discover the wonders of the universe, rescue the girl, stop the bad guy, save the Rebellion. The villains are villains, the heroes are heroes.
Oh, I agree! That's what I like about Splinter of the Mind's Eye (and not too many people seem to say good things about it) because it does much the same thing.

Frankly, if Lucas had cranked out a dozen movies similar to ANH I would have loved them all. (Kind of like reading James Bond or John Carter of Mars -- each adventure is a lot like the one before so you can read them in almost any order.) In general I'm not as big a fan of the big sweeping saga...

[Darill Cyllem]

I like the whole, big star wars story, but ANH has always been my favorite.

[RollaFett]

Like when Obi_Wan says to Anakin "Why do I have the feeling you're going to be the death of me?" When I heard that for the first time, I chuckled, along with most of the audience. If I had seen the PT first, I wouldn't have gotten it. I wonder if that would even have been in the PT if the PT had been made first.There is no way that that line would've been used if the PT came first, IMO. It was a perfect opportunity for Lucas to inject a little "wink wink" joke for the audience, and it wasn't the only time he did that, for which I'm thankful for most of them because they usually worked.

[Master Magnus]

I don't dislike ROTS because of it, but I watched ROTJ yesterday and in addition to the scene between Luke and Leia in the Ewok village, the Luke and Obi-Wan scene doesn't quite work with the PT in mind, particularly this line:
Obi-Wan: To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born.This explicitly means that Obi-Wan knew that Anakin was alive (ie that "the duel" was yet to happen) when "mother Skywalker" (this was of course written long before ROTS) gave birth to the children. Like the Ewok village scene, this scene doesn't work together with ROTS. Lucas painted himself in a corner with those two scenes and couldn't make the leap across the paint.

[Talcy]

I always figured that he sensed Anakin was still alive through the Force. He's certainly not surprised to see him on the Death Star.

[borgmatrix]

I think the only thing I didn't like about ROTS was how overloaded it felt. It was hardly a huge problem, but I think the movie would have benefitted from the overall story being better distributed over the trilogy. Really, I and II would have benefited the most from that. But it would have helped III as well.

[Corandra Starshadow]

In ROTS, GL was tying up loose ends.

Perhaps after the duel, Obi-Wan did think Anakin was dead, but sensed/learned later that Anakin was still alive. You could call "you were hidden from your father when you were born" another one of those "certain points of view." In ROTS, it does look more like Luke and Leia are being hidden from Palpatine, but they were also hidden from Anakin--whether or not Obi-Wan knew that at the time. :bigsmile:

[Master Magnus]

^That's a good point...

[Tovor]

I think the only thing I didn't like about ROTS was how overloaded it felt. It was hardly a huge problem, but I think the movie would have benefitted from the overall story being better distributed over the trilogy. Really, I and II would have benefited the most from that. But it would have helped III as well.
Probably so. But I also think that adding a half hour, or even just 20 minutes, to the running time, would have hugely benefitted the film by better telling, and not rushing, the elements of the story.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Yes, Obi-Wan found out that Anakin was alive. EU to the rescue once again! :wink:

[Master Magnus]

Yes, Obi-Wan found out that Anakin was alive. EU to the rescue once again! :wink:
Even so, Obi-Wan didn't know that Anakin was alive when the children were born and placed into hiding... :cigar:

[Raganork8]

Even so, Obi-Wan didn't know that Anakin was alive when the children were born and placed into hiding... :cigar:

Technically we don't know how long after their birth they went into hiding. Could have been ASAP could have been a few weeks

[Corandra Starshadow]

The movie implies that it was a very short time: Luke and Leia were still infants then.

[borgmatrix]

Probably so. But I also think that adding a half hour, or even just 20 minutes, to the running time, would have hugely benefitted the film by better telling, and not rushing, the elements of the story.
No doubt. But again, that could have been accomplished by better utilizing the time in episodes I and II, and that would have benefitted the entire trilogy, not just ROTS.

The other criticism I have with ROTS has been mentioned a lot, and that's the handling of Kenobi vs Vader. I would have loved more/better dialogue to highlight their emotional states and better represent how significant this battle was for them. Through dialogue is where I think the real story would have come through, and especially given that there had already been so much action earlier in the movie, I think to really separate and lift Vader-Kenobi above those other sequences, we needed dialogue/story to increase the drama.

[Jacen Solo]

The other criticism I have with ROTS has been mentioned a lot, and that's the handling of Kenobi vs Vader. I would have loved more/better dialogue to highlight their emotional states and better represent how significant this battle was for them. Through dialogue is where I think the real story would have come through, and especially given that there had already been so much action earlier in the movie, I think to really separate and lift Vader-Kenobi above those other sequences, we needed dialogue/story to increase the drama.

I agree. While AOTC dealt with the relationship between Anakin and Padme, ROTS was aimed toward the breakdown of Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan. Mr. Stover's novelization was excellent with this storyline, and I wish more of it would have been in the film, and especially the duel. For instance:

Anakin: You hesitate. The flaw of compassion ...
Obi-Wan: It's not compassion. It's respect for the man you once were ...
[The lightsabers clash.]
Obi-Wan: It's regret for the man you could have become ...
Anakin: I'M SO SICK OF YOUR LECTURES!!"

I agree that more dialogue would have made the duel even better. Such would really highlight the betrayal and tragedy of the matter ... Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, once the best of friends, now sworn enemies.

[Solo]

What I dislike most about ROTS is Anakin saying "What have I done?" all the time. His character seems so weak, it becomes hard to believe that he became Vader later.