Who Was Count Dooku?

[Raganork8]

I've been sitting around watching AOTC and ROTS and I still cannot come 100% to believe that Count Dooku was a Sith Lord; I still hold on to the belief that at worst he was a "dark Jedi".

something about him; was always different his attitude the amount of power he controlled before being revealed as a "sith"; the fact that he didn't have the yellow eyes.

I always felt he was a guy who would do what he HAD to do; even if it meant turning on his friends to bring "peace"

I don't think he would have gone along with an Empire; I don't think he trusted or even enjoyed his other C.I.S. leaders.

I don't know Just a thought; what do you think?

[JackBauer24]

His name was Darth Tyranus. That makes him a Sith in my book.

[RollaFett]

I dunno. I mean, apart from the yellow eyes, what was so different? And what do we have to compare his behavior to anyway?
Each Sith Lord we see in the films act differently, it seems.
Darth Maul - Silent, aggressive weapon.
Darth Sidious - Sneaky, behind the scenes manipulator who becomes a maniac once revealed.
Darth Vader - Stoic, impatient, ambitious, and tortured.
Count Dooku - Diplomatic, untrust-worthy, and arrogant.

That's summarizing their traits, sure, but basically that's what each of those guys were about. A lot of differences and no one quality that they all posessed that defined them as a Sith, so I can't really agree with you. Oh, and there is that other point of Dooku's other name. Y'know, Darth Tyrannus. ;)

[Raganork8]

I know; it just never hit me that he's a sith; plus the use of his Sith name is so minute in the films

It's almost as if GL didn't want us to think of him a sith...I'm not sure how to explain it.

However I never saw anything wrong with the C.I.S.

In fact in many ways i think it provided more stability than Republic; and I'm not 100% convince that with maybe some shifting of leader the C.I.S. wasn't the best plan for the Galaxy.

[Darill Cyllem]

I have to say I didn't get the Dooku-Tyrannus connection until I read the AOTC novelization, so I see your point, Raganork.

[Raganork8]

I have to say I didn't get the Dooku-Tyrannus connection until I read the AOTC novelization, so I see your point, Raganork.

Oh yeah; not to mention that in AOTC he's called Lord Tyranus once and in a scene where most people heard the wrong thing.


"The War has begun"

"The Boy has begun"

[RollaFett]

Yeah, I understand your overall point. But remember, it was Dooku himself who actually seperated himself from the Sith. He planted that seed while he asked Obi-Wan to join him to destroy the Sith. Sure, the Jedi didn't really buy that, but I think it did kind convince them, to a point, that he was more of a fallen Jedi who uses the dark side than a Sith lord. IMO, of course.

[Raganork8]

Yeah, I understand your overall point. But remember, it was Dooku himself who actually seperated himself from the Sith. He planted that seed while he asked Obi-Wan to join him to destroy the Sith. Sure, the Jedi didn't really buy that, but I think it did kind convince them, to a point, that he was more of a fallen Jedi who uses the dark side than a Sith lord. IMO, of course.


Yes; Yes, thats what I meant; in fact I think he intended to use the Sith and actually dispose of the Sith in the long run.

I always had this theory that Dooku was the most practical Jedi.

I keep mentioning that the Jedi order had a huge flaw where it didn't account for "human" behavior.

Dooku worked with this and It did bring him to a Sith lord; but, I'm not convinced Galactic domination and revenge were ever apart of Dooku's plan.

Remember Dooku is already the ruler of his own system; he's rich; doesn't have to do all of this; he could fund his entire army (he did!) something made Dooku WANT to change the galaxy; and I think that that idea is more on a benign side than simple "revenge"

[RollaFett]

I disagree. I think his 'recruitment' of Obi-Wan was a ploy. Yoda had it right when he said that lies, deception, etc. were his way now. All of it was an attempt to confuse the Jedi and lead them to make irrational deciscions, ie- having Anakin spy on Palpatine.

[Master_Kinnon]

No see I've always thought it was fairly obvious that Dooku was a Sith. Not a Sith Lord, 'cause that was Sidious, but the apprentice, definitely. I think the way he behaved was entirely in keeping with the Sith Order, but that's just me :)

[Raganork8]

I disagree. I think his 'recruitment' of Obi-Wan was a ploy. Yoda had it right when he said that lies, deception, etc. were his way now. All of it was an attempt to confuse the Jedi and lead them to make irrational deciscions, ie- having Anakin spy on Palpatine.

I agree; but I believe there was something anti-jedi, Anti-sith there as well. I don't think it was a ploy against the Jedi at all actually; I think it was squarely against the Sith. But if you think of it this way; had the council decided to take his words as truth and found out Palpy earlier; the republic would be in a state of Chaos that the C.I.S. could take advantage of; effectively getting rid of his strongest enemy (Palpy) and POSSIBLY restoring some sort of trust in a time of desperate need.

No see I've always thought it was fairly obvious that Dooku was a Sith. Not a Sith Lord, 'cause that was Sidious, but the apprentice, definitely. I think the way he behaved was entirely in keeping with the Sith Order, but that's just me :)

But Dooku was a powerful Jedi; I can' see him playing second fiddle especially to Palpatine who isn't all that much IMO

[RollaFett]

^^Hmmm...technically, I think he still would be a "Lord". Remember Sids actually calling him "Lord Tyrannus" near the very end of the film?

[Master_Kinnon]

Yeah but all Sith where referred to as "Lord". But in terms of the balance of power, Dooku was the apprentice and Sidious the Lord. According to the Sith Order, only one can ever be a Sith Lord. But I take your point.

And yeah Dooku was a powerful Jedi, but in the history of the Jedi Order, there are others just as powerful who have strayed to the Darkside and played second fiddle.

[Raganork8]

Yeah but all Sith where referred to as "Lord". But in terms of the balance of power, Dooku was the apprentice and Sidious the Lord. According to the Sith Order, only one can ever be a Sith Lord. But I take your point.

And yeah Dooku was a powerful Jedi, but in the history of the Jedi Order, there are others just as powerful who have strayed to the Darkside and played second fiddle.


I suppose; but I still can't see this guy; with Riches to no end; being under the guidance of someone he's more powerful than in MOST respects.

Seems to me he was playing both sides.

Remember the republic was breaking before Palpatine; it just so happens that Dooku and Palpatine wanted to do something about; but, I don't think for the same reasons.

[Master_Kinnon]

But the thing is, WAS he more powerful than Sidious in most respects? I mean you have to remember Palpatine fought Yoda to a standstill while Dooku had to make a hasty escape. And the person pulling Dooku's strings by tempting him with potential power and influence was Sidious; Dooku didn't do any of that on his own, he himself was directed. I think the problem comes with the contrast between Dooku and the other Sith we see who are so much younger and maleable. But Dooku was a man after power and ambition, and being a Jedi never afforded him that luxury.

[Raganork8]

I'm not convinced Dooku wasn't more powerful than Palpatine; Both Yoda fights ended in a vague sucsess.

Dooku did flee; but, lets remember he had the Death Star Plans with him and had fought two young prime Jedi's before him.

Palpatine; didn't engage in much lightsaber combat; we see in the beginning he does and then later on he's throwing senate Pods...doesn't seem exhausting or a display of skill; whereas Dooku literally fought Yoda until he decided it was time to go (coincidentally) right before Clones and Padme showed up.

Palpatine does nothing Dooku hasn't done first; in fact the Sith traits of Force lighting and Choke are premiered by Dooku.

But I might be biased; I love Count Dooku and think that if he instead of Vader was under Palpatine during the Galactic Civil War; the Rebellion didn't stand a chance.

[RollaFett]

I'm not convinced Dooku wasn't more powerful than Palpatine; Both Yoda fights ended in a vague sucsess.
Neither truly defeated Yoda, IMO. Dooku does indeed flee when the chance arises, and Palps tried to flee before the fight ever really started. Now, with that said, when fighting actually took place, I think they both afforded themselves well, but Palps certainly appeared to have more going for him and easily seemed more powerful, IMO.

Dooku did flee; but, lets remember he had the Death Star Plans with him and had fought two young prime Jedi's before him.
Yeah, and Palps was confronted by 4 Jedi masters, and killed three of them before they knew what hit them.

Palpatine; didn't engage in much lightsaber combat; we see in the beginning he does and then later on he's throwing senate Pods...doesn't seem exhausting or a display of skill; whereas Dooku literally fought Yoda until he decided it was time to go (coincidentally) right before Clones and Padme showed up.
Using the Force to move objects doesn't seem too exhausting, huh? Tell that to Luke on Dagaboh. It was made pretty clear in his training scenes that it was not an easy skill to master, but Palps sure had it down. Oh, and don't forget that Dooku initially tried to avoid fighting Yoda by doing what? Right, throwing objects.

Palpatine does nothing Dooku hasn't done first; in fact the Sith traits of Force lighting and Choke are premiered by Dooku.
That's not quite fair. Where do you think he learned how to throw the lightening or perform a choke? I'd make a very educated guess that Palps had something to do with that, considering he was Dooku's master.

But I might be biased; I love Count Dooku and think that if he instead of Vader was under Palpatine during the Galactic Civil War; the Rebellion didn't stand a chance.
Why? If he was so much better than Vader, then why did the mad who became Vader lop his head off with relative ease?

[Raganork8]

Neither truly defeated Yoda, IMO. Dooku does indeed flee when the chance arises, and Palps tried to flee before the fight ever really started. Now, with that said, when fighting actually took place, I think they both afforded themselves well, but Palps certainly appeared to have more going for him and easily seemed more powerful, IMO.


Yeah, and Palps was confronted by 4 Jedi masters, and killed three of them before they knew what hit them.


Using the Force to move objects doesn't seem too exhausting, huh? Tell that to Luke on Dagaboh. It was made pretty clear in his training scenes that it was not an easy skill to master, but Palps sure had it down. Oh, and don't forget that Dooku initially tried to avoid fighting Yoda by doing what? Right, throwing objects.


That's not quite fair. Where do you think he learned how to throw the lightening or perform a choke? I'd make a very educated guess that Palps had something to do with that, considering he was Dooku's master.


Why? If he was so much better than Vader, then why did the mad who became Vader lop his head off with relative ease?

Well we're just working with a difference of opinion; to me a straight lightsaber battle shows more skill and power; using Luke as an example is not a credit; the kid was not a jedi; let a lone a knight, let alone a master. Remember how quickly Palpatine was to run when Yoda confronts him; Dooku merely escapes in the end because he was going to have two Jedi and however many clones in the room and he was carrying precious information.

Palps did fight four jedi; two of which stood there and were killed; he had something Dooku didn't have in the situation...Surprise. Dealing with a Sith Lord is big enough a surprise; but the Chancellor at that!? Were they expecting a full scale lightsaber assault? I doubt it; because if they were I think they would have taken down Palps without that much of a problem.

Dooku did throw things at Yoda; but there's a difference in starting with lightsaber combat and moving to that than the Vice Versa. Keeping distance from Yoda is a defensive strategy; Palps did it to keep Yoda away (presumably to allow time for the clones to arrive) Dooku did it as a contest and then challenges Yoda to a lightsaber Duel; there's something more brazen there to me.

He fended off Yoda and left seconds before the clones and Padme arrived.

We know that Dooku studied Sith Holocrons while in the Jedi order; presumably he learned them then. Remember Dooku did NOT leave the order to join the Sith; he went back to being a Count and was approached by Sidious later.

Why?

Sure Anakin did defeat him; that doesn't mean Vader (in the suit) can; and it's not about skills in combat; it's more of the man was rich; powerful and smart. What leverage would the rebellion have against him?

Nothing like Luke and Vader's relation. Could you imagine the Empire having Driods AND Stormtroopers? The Rebellion wouldn't have stood a chance.

Don't forget Dooku is a cunning man; not to say that Vader isn't; but, Dooku was a different caliber; let's not forget his sucess with General Grievous.

[RollaFett]

Well we're just working with a difference of opinion; to me a straight lightsaber battle shows more skill and power; using Luke as an example is not a credit; the kid was not a jedi; let a lone a knight, let alone a master. Remember how quickly Palpatine was to run when Yoda confronts him; Dooku merely escapes in the end because he was going to have two Jedi and however many clones in the room and he was carrying precious information.
Difference of opinion, sure.
How does a straight lightsaber fight exhibit more skill exactly? It would seem to me that the ability to incorporate multiple tactics in a fight would require more skill.
And using Luke as an example wasn't my point. My point was to show that it is not an easy skill to learn. It took even Yoda a while to get that X-Wing out of the swamp, did it not? Plus, remember when he catches the senate pod that Palps throws at him? Judging by the look on Yoda's face, it did not appear to be an easy move either.
What's your reasoning for saying that moving objects with the Force is not exhausting or a show of skill?

Palps did fight four jedi; two of which stood there and were killed; he had something Dooku didn't have in the situation...Surprise. Dealing with a Sith Lord is big enough a surprise; but the Chancellor at that!? Were they expecting a full scale lightsaber assault? I doubt it; because if they were I think they would have taken down Palps without that much of a problem.
Yes, Palps did have some surprise on his side, but not entirely. If they thought of him as no threat, then why did all 4 of them ignite their sabers in the first place? And speaking of surprise, boy, it sure looked like Anakin was surprised to get a face full of Sith lightening, huh?

Dooku did throw things at Yoda; but there's a difference in starting with lightsaber combat and moving to that than the Vice Versa. Keeping distance from Yoda is a defensive strategy; Palps did it to keep Yoda away (presumably to allow time for the clones to arrive) Dooku did it as a contest and then challenges Yoda to a lightsaber Duel; there's something more brazen there to me.
Well, I will aknowledge that Dooku definately seemed to be more of an old school type of duelist. But don't kid yourself, he wanted no part of a lightsaber fight with Yoda. He only did so, because he couldn't get near him otherwise. Remember this as well, when Dooku attempted to use lightening on Yoda, it failed miserably. When Palps tried, however, he knocked Yoda square on his green ass.

He fended off Yoda and left seconds before the clones and Padme arrived.
Fended off? He found a spare moment to get Yoda off his back by doing what? Riigghhhtttt...Force moving something big to put Anakin and Obi-Wan in jeopardy so he could then escape.

We know that Dooku studied Sith Holocrons while in the Jedi order; presumably he learned them then. Remember Dooku did NOT leave the order to join the Sith; he went back to being a Count and was approached by Sidious later.
I honestly don't know what the hell you're talking about, sorry. I'm basing all of my points on the films, and I don't recall any of that in the films.

Sure Anakin did defeat him; that doesn't mean Vader (in the suit) can;
Hmmm...ok, but we'll never know that. What we do know is that Anakin did defeat him. Which, by the way, was all set up by Palps in order to replace Dooku in the first place. Dooku being the older and less powerful of the Sith apprentices that Palps wanted by his side. Any of that ring a bell?
and it's not about skills in combat; it's more of the man was rich; powerful and smart. What leverage would the rebellion have against him?

Nothing like Luke and Vader's relation. Could you imagine the Empire having Driods AND Stormtroopers? The Rebellion wouldn't have stood a chance.
Now you're talking about a completely hypothetical universe. You have to remember that Dooku ruling the galaxy alongside Palps was never even an option. Palps set all of the Empire stuff in motion long before Dooku was a factor, and he never had it in his grand plan for Dooku to be his permanent apprentice. He was used and abused, and then tossed aside without his noggin.

Don't forget Dooku is a cunning man; not to say that Vader isn't; but, Dooku was a different caliber; let's not forget his sucess with General Grievous.
Not cunning enough to realize that Palps merely was using him until Anakin was ready to take his place.

Ahhh...this is fun, rags. Keep tossing your softball points my way and I'll keep knocking them out of the park. :D

[Raganork8]

Difference of opinion, sure.
How does a straight lightsaber fight exhibit more skill exactly? It would seem to me that the ability to incorporate multiple tactics in a fight would require more skill.
And using Luke as an example wasn't my point. My point was to show that it is not an easy skill to learn. It took even Yoda a while to get that X-Wing out of the swamp, did it not? Plus, remember when he catches the senate pod that Palps throws at him? Judging by the look on Yoda's face, it did not appear to be an easy move either.
What's your reasoning for saying that moving objects with the Force is not exhausting or a show of skill?


Yes, Palps did have some surprise on his side, but not entirely. If they thought of him as no threat, then why did all 4 of them ignite their sabers in the first place? And speaking of surprise, boy, it sure looked like Anakin was surprised to get a face full of Sith lightening, huh?


Well, I will aknowledge that Dooku definately seemed to be more of an old school type of duelist. But don't kid yourself, he wanted no part of a lightsaber fight with Yoda. He only did so, because he couldn't get near him otherwise. Remember this as well, when Dooku attempted to use lightening on Yoda, it failed miserably. When Palps tried, however, he knocked Yoda square on his green ass.


Fended off? He found a spare moment to get Yoda off his back by doing what? Riigghhhtttt...Force moving something big to put Anakin and Obi-Wan in jeopardy so he could then escape.


I honestly don't know what the hell you're talking about, sorry. I'm basing all of my points on the films, and I don't recall any of that in the films.


Hmmm...ok, but we'll never know that. What we do know is that Anakin did defeat him. Which, by the way, was all set up by Palps in order to replace Dooku in the first place. Dooku being the older and less powerful of the Sith apprentices that Palps wanted by his side. Any of that ring a bell?

Now you're talking about a completely hypothetical universe. You have to remember that Dooku ruling the galaxy alongside Palps was never even an option. Palps set all of the Empire stuff in motion long before Dooku was a factor, and he never had it in his grand plan for Dooku to be his permanent apprentice. He was used and abused, and then tossed aside without his noggin.


Not cunning enough to realize that Palps merely was using him until Anakin was ready to take his place.

Ahhh...this is fun, rags. Keep tossing your softball points my way and I'll keep knocking them out of the park. :D


you have some interesting points...

Lightsaber combat is a one on one fighting chance, a lightsaber is a deadly weapon at any moment death is possible. Throwing Senate Pods keeps Yoda's lightsaber away; Palpy seemed to be avoiding Yoda's saber in that battle; when Yoda appears in front of him with the saber what does he do? Force lightening that thing out of his hand...I'd fear lightsaber combat more than a tossing match; you could always use the force to dodge...

I'll concede the ability to throw things; it probably is exhuasting; but it's also a very defensive move; it did keep Yoda at bay and away from Palps; which I think was the reason for doing it.

Never said the Jedi were at complete Surprise from Palps; but, clearly they were not expecting a lightsaber battle... drawing the sabers could have been to prevent some kind of blaster attack OR just for sheer intimidation. He had MORE surprise than Dooku did; I think we can agree on that.

Anakin may have been surprised; but we were talking Yoda and he didn't seem Surprise; plus even if Anakin was surprised that doesn't say the entire thing was an surprise attack; just Anakin's stupidity...

I don't agree with you about not wanting to Duel Yoda; he looked pretty excited and ready for it; if that was the case he would have thrown the thing on Obi and Ani first and escaped without fighting Yoda. You're right Sith Lightening is better with Palpy; he's probably focused on it more; his saber skills don't seem to be up to Par though; so I would say they're even in this respect; Dooku focused on more on Lightsaber combat and Palps Lightening.

I don't disagree he found a spare moment to escape Yoda; Obi Wan, Padme and however many clones were coming to get the Death Star Plans off the planet (the basis of th C.I.S. at the time) I suppose he should have put the whole war in Jeopardy just to prove a point...

If you're basing everything on the films then we don't know where he learned Sith lightening or the choking thing from and my point is also invalid, so fine; but, it applies to everything.

We don't know that; but we know he defeated Obi Wan Twice and Anankin as Vader in the suit defeated Obi Wan by default. Judging from Count Dooku agility at his age if we were to replace Dooku for Obi in ANH I think we know how that battle would end. Doou was older; less powerful I'm not sure we can say that; we saw a young Anakin defeat Dooku by cutting off his hands (I'm not taking anything away from that he did win) but if saber combat is the only thing that determines power then I suppose Luke was more powerful than Vader as well; but I don't believe that.

I think Anakin had an advantage; I also think Anakin had more to lose if he lost that battle; thats not saying much; but, power comes in many forms and Count Dooku clearly was the thing Holding up the Clone wars (that's power)

How do you know Dooku was never part of the grand plan? How do you know Palps didn't change his mind later? Dooku must have been in some sort of the plan for the Empire because the Clone Wars was ESSENTIAL to the formation of the Empire and Count Dooku was the one who held the war up and had the finances and the POWER to bring the systems together to rebel against the Republic. So Dooku must have been apart of it at some point; neither of us can speculate as to where Palpatine's plans began only how the end...

and Had Dooku killed Anakin; would Palpatine have gotten rid of Dooku? Can't see the logic in that; seems like he would keep the winner regardless.

When Exactly was Anakin ready to take his place?

What good would it have done had Dooku been killed in AOTC? I think the line is more like Palps was using Dooku until he had secured the power he needed to control the senate without much argument; I'm not quite sure where Anakin fits in the Clone war/Empire scheme.

I'm Glad your having fun.

[RollaFett]

Lightsaber combat is a one on one fighting chance, a lightsaber is a deadly weapon at any moment death is possible. Throwing Senate Pods keeps Yoda's lightsaber away; Palpy seemed to be avoiding Yoda's saber in that battle; when Yoda appears in front of him with the saber what does he do? Force lightening that thing out of his hand...I'd fear lightsaber combat more than a tossing match; you could always use the force to dodge...

I'll concede the ability to throw things; it probably is exhuasting; but it's also a very defensive move; it did keep Yoda at bay and away from Palps; which I think was the reason for doing it.
Throwing things is not merely a defensive move. Dooku clearly used as an offensive move against Yoda, to no avail. And Vader does it against Luke, while still using his lightsaber. It was a pretty even fight up until that point. Luke didn't stand a chance once Vader incorporated the throwing stuff tactic.

He had MORE surprise than Dooku did; I think we can agree on that.
Agreed.

I don't agree with you about not wanting to Duel Yoda; he looked pretty excited and ready for it.
Conceded. I got a little carried away with that one. :blush:

I don't disagree he found a spare moment to escape Yoda; Obi Wan, Padme and however many clones were coming to get the Death Star Plans off the planet (the basis of th C.I.S. at the time) I suppose he should have put the whole war in Jeopardy just to prove a point...
Hmmm...you have a point. I keep ignoring that he did have a larger priority with the DS plans, so a quick escape was essential. Doing whatever possible to get of there is legit.

If you're basing everything on the films then we don't know where he learned Sith lightening or the choking thing from and my point is also invalid, so fine; but, it applies to everything.
No, there are certain points that can be logically applied by watching the films. Dooku's dark side skills is certainly one of them. We know he is an apprentice of Darth Sidious, thus it's quite logical to come to the conclusion that he learned things from Sidious. You don't need to see everything on film to figure some things out.
Your mention of Dooku studying Sith holocrams and being approached by Sidious after leaving the Jedi are very specific plot points that were not in the film, nor even the deleted scenes. Perhaps they are from the novelization, but I don't recollect that nearly as clearly as the film. And even if they are accurate things that did take place in the novelization, that still doesn't negate the logical conclusion that Sidious would've taught Dooku how to throw force lightening or do a force choke, now does it?

We don't know that; but we know he defeated Obi Wan Twice and Anankin as Vader in the suit defeated Obi Wan by default. Judging from Count Dooku agility at his age if we were to replace Dooku for Obi in ANH I think we know how that battle would end. Doou was older; less powerful I'm not sure we can say that; we saw a young Anakin defeat Dooku by cutting off his hands (I'm not taking anything away from that he did win) but if saber combat is the only thing that determines power then I suppose Luke was more powerful than Vader as well; but I don't believe that.
Basically, I'd say that at the particular times of the battles you mention, the stronger person one at that time.
When Dooku defeated both Obi-Wan and Anakin, Dooku was clearly more powerful then either of them. When they met again, it sure seemed as if he still had the edge on Obi-Wan, but Anakin clearly passed him. Oh, and lopped his head off too. ;)
To take it further, as you did, then yes, when Luke and Vader first meet, Vader is clearly more powerful. By the time they meet again, the tables have turned, though and Luke has the upper hand (pun intended).

I think Anakin had an advantage; I also think Anakin had more to lose if he lost that battle; thats not saying much; but, power comes in many forms and Count Dooku clearly was the thing Holding up the Clone wars (that's power)
Yeah, Anakin's advantage was that he was the stronger of the two. Why did he have more to lose in that battle?

How do you know Dooku was never part of the grand plan? How do you know Palps didn't change his mind later? Dooku must have been in some sort of the plan for the Empire because the Clone Wars was ESSENTIAL to the formation of the Empire and Count Dooku was the one who held the war up and had the finances and the POWER to bring the systems together to rebel against the Republic. So Dooku must have been apart of it at some point; neither of us can speculate as to where Palpatine's plans began only how the end...
Never said he wasn't some sort of the plan, because it's pretty damned clear that he was. However, it also seems pretty damned clear that he had a specific role to play and once Palps got what he needed out of Dooku, it was time for who he really wanted...Anakin.
You keep saying that it was Dooku that held the Clone Wars up. Uhhh...why? If not for Palpatine, do you think that Dooku would've done the Clone Wars thing all by himself. Remember the scene at the end of AOTC:
Dooku: "I have good news for you, my lord. War has begun."
Sidious: "Excellent. Everything is going as planned."
Now, whose plan do you think Dooku was carrying out?

and Had Dooku killed Anakin; would Palpatine have gotten rid of Dooku? Can't see the logic in that; seems like he would keep the winner regardless.
You're probably right about that. But had Dooku won, then a big chunk of Palps grand plan is thrown askew because he wanted Anakin. That was made perfectly clear from even the end of TPM. He's counting on Anakin to defeat Dooku. It's part of his plan.

When Exactly was Anakin ready to take his place?
I'd say at the point where he staged his own kidnapping. Remember, that was all a ruse to have Anakin and Dooku duel once more.

What good would it have done had Dooku been killed in AOTC? I think the line is more like Palps was using Dooku until he had secured the power he needed to control the senate without much argument; I'm not quite sure where Anakin fits in the Clone war/Empire scheme.
Never said he should've been killed in AOTC. Storywise, it worked out fine. Grand plan-wise, for Palpatine, it worked just as he planned it. Again, Dooku was indeed valuable, but Palpatine only needed him for certain things.

I'm Glad your having fun.
Sure am. And some of those softballs turned into fastballs and you got a few by me this time. Good debating!

[Raganork8]

When I'm more in the mood i'll argue a little more


this has been a fun debate!

[Horse_Head]

Dooku was an Intergalactic Counting Guy... You've seen those little tags in clothing and stuff that says "Inspected by 12" ... well he would leave little tags that said "Counted by Dooku" :P

[RollaFett]

Oh geez, you did go there, didn't you? That almost calls for a negative rep if it weren't so damned cheesy. So damned cheesy, in fact, to be kinda' funny. :wink:

[borgmatrix]

But had Dooku won, then a big chunk of Palps grand plan is thrown askew because he wanted Anakin. That was made perfectly clear from even the end of TPM. He's counting on Anakin to defeat Dooku. It's part of his plan.
Not part of the plan, really, but more of a personal preference. Sidious would have rather had Anakin as his apprentice than Dooku. But if Skywalker had failed to live up to expectations and gotten killed by Dooku at the beginning of ROTS, it wouldn't have meant a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. A huge personal disappointment for Sids, I'm sure, but there's nothing particularly special Vader was going to do for him that some other apprentice really couldn't. In the end, Vader was a disappointment due to this failure against Kenobi on Mustafar. I think we can say with certainty that Sids wasn't wanting or expecting a crippled, power-shackled apprentice.

Vader becoming the next apprentice was more important for the side of good, since it preserved that small bit of good in him that allowed for Sids defeat years later. But as far as serving the Empire and carrying out Sids will, we can look across the saga and see that there wasn't anything particularly special that Vader did that someone else couldn't have.

Getting back to Dooku specifically and rags question in the original post, there's really too little in the movies to come away with any concrete sense one way or the other. If Dooku was ultimately looking to defeat the Sith, it seems we're looking at another Qel-Dromma situation, or one akin to Skywalker in Dark Empire...the attempt to defeat the Sith from within plan that inevitably leads to corruption of the hero. If Dooku had overthrown Sids at some point, I don't see him giving up the power he gains, regardless of whether his intentions were pure to begin with.

But in the end, I'd say he was Sith. There's the Jedi philosophy. There's the Sith way. Dooku chose the latter. You said originally that maybe Dooku's just the kind of guy willing to do whatever's necessary to achieve peace. Well, that's basically Sids, isn't it? After he'd essentially won in ROTS, didn't he something to the effect of "at last, we shall have peace"? A rather extreme route he chose, but in his mind, it resulted in a strengthened, ordered galaxy. If Dooku supports that kind of thinking, then he has the right title with 'Sith Lord'.

[Raganork8]

I don't think Palps believed he was having peace; just control; but your idea is sound other than that

[RollaFett]

Not part of the plan, really, but more of a personal preference. Sidious would have rather had Anakin as his apprentice than Dooku. But if Skywalker had failed to live up to expectations and gotten killed by Dooku at the beginning of ROTS, it wouldn't have meant a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. A huge personal disappointment for Sids, I'm sure, but there's nothing particularly special Vader was going to do for him that some other apprentice really couldn't. In the end, Vader was a disappointment due to this failure against Kenobi on Mustafar. I think we can say with certainty that Sids wasn't wanting or expecting a crippled, power-shackled apprentice.
Ok, fine. However, the fact still remains that Palps still definately preferred to have Anakin over Dooku, and had been working towards that for years. It seems very clear that Dooku was never meant to be Palps permanent apprentice. Now with that said, I do agree that if Dooku had defeated Anakin, Palps would've managed to still move ahead with his Empire plans with Dooku.
As far as what became of Anakin/Vader after his defeat to Obi-Wan, well...yeah, I'm sure Palps was very disappointed in the result at having a much lesser version of Vader than he had anticipated, but that doesn't change the fact that he preferred him over Dooku originally.

[Raganork8]

Ok, fine. However, the fact still remains that Palps still definately preferred to have Anakin over Dooku, and had been working towards that for years. It seems very clear that Dooku was never meant to be Palps permanent apprentice. Now with that said, I do agree that if Dooku had defeated Anakin, Palps would've managed to still move ahead with his Empire plans with Dooku.
As far as what became of Anakin/Vader after his defeat to Obi-Wan, well...yeah, I'm sure Palps was very disappointed in the result at having a much lesser version of Vader than he had anticipated, but that doesn't change the fact that he preferred him over Dooku originally.


truth be told; he didn't need vader anymore after the disintegration of the Jedi order. That is what Anakin's Purpose to Palpatine was. However Palps gained and lost something in the defeat; he loss an agile young; strong Jedi ; but gained someone he could control a helluva lot easier.

what is better than that; a crippled; but still powerful servant. He can never snap back at you; but is strong enough to defeat your enemies for you.

The only time Dooku would have served better for Palps is for money reasons; Imagine if Dooku survived ROTS and helped run the Galaxy; there would nothing the Empire with the clones and Dooku's Droid Armies could not touch.


The Galaxy's best bet was Darth Vader.

[borgmatrix]

Ok, fine. However, the fact still remains that Palps still definately preferred to have Anakin over Dooku, and had been working towards that for years.
Yeah, no doubt. Anakin was definitely the top draft pic.

truth be told; he didn't need vader anymore after the disintegration of the Jedi order. That is what Anakin's Purpose to Palpatine was.
Well, even there, Vader wasn't a necessity. The clones were more than up to the challenge of wiping out the Jedi in the Temple. Palpatine wanted Vader there to increase the DS hold over him. Same reason he sent Vader to Mustafar for another task that could have easily been handled by stormtroopers. The more Vader committed such acts, the more lost he became to the DS.

However Palps gained and lost something in the defeat; he loss an agile young; strong Jedi ; but gained someone he could control a helluva lot easier.

what is better than that; a crippled; but still powerful servant. He can never snap back at you; but is strong enough to defeat your enemies for you.
Yeah, but that was never of primary concern for Sids. If he wanted someone he could easily control, he'd never have pursued Anakin in the first place. First and foremost, it was the sheer power Anakin had that Sids wanted. Repeatedly, we saw how completely enamored Sids was with the young Jedi's power. Sids hope, undoubtedly, was to be the one that brought the most powerful Sith in the history of the Order into the fold. Being able to better control Vader post-Mustafar might have been one way for him to positively spin the result, but that would be small consolation given the potential he'd seen in the Skywalker. He didn't want a mechanical monstrosity for his apprentice. He wanted and envisioned a Vader who would be "more powerful than either of us", as he said to Yoda.

[RollaFett]

truth be told; he didn't need vader anymore after the disintegration of the Jedi order.
I don't know about that. Remember, the Sith always have 2 in their order. Yes, he played a part in wiping out the Jedi, but obviously Palps wanted him for more than just that. He was the next in line of Sith succession. That is, of course, until Luke was discovered.

[Tovor]

I believe there is another, far more important reason for Sidious wanting Vader as his representative even despite the diminishing injuries. People feared what the clones could do, but they didn't fear the clones the way they feared Vader. Civilians, enemies of the empire, even imperial officers, didn't fear 100 armed clones carrying out the wishes of the emperor the way they feared just one Vader and his mysterious powers.

James Lucano wrote something interesting and valid to my point in Dark Lord. Sidious was thinking that it was time for the galaxy to get its introduction to Darth Vader and learn to fear him.

It wasn't enough that he had a massive and intimidating army at his disposal. He needed a Sith to drive fear into the hearts of those who may oppose him within his own government. Remember, the powerful Yoda and Mace Windu were highly concerned about the existance of one Sith in the galaxy, at the end of TPM. That's what Sidious wanted, for the empire to fear Vader the way the Jedi had been worried about his existance. And I think that Vader in the suit was more terrifying than out of the suit, and that certainly added to the mindset that Sidious wanted others to have toward his apprentice.

Oh wait, this is supposed to be about Dooku, huh?

[RollaFett]

Yeah, but what you wrote is still related to Dooku.
One point being argued in this thread is how Palps always wanted Anakin/Vader as his true apprentice, and that Dooku only served a specific purpose and was replacable.
What you say is an excellent way of describing why Palps wanted Vader.
Rags, yes you like Dooku, but when you get down to it, was he really intimidating the way Vader was? I'd say no.

[borgmatrix]

Rags, yes you like Dooku, but when you get down to it, was he really intimidating the way Vader was? I'd say no.
Yeah. Its not even close there. But again, it just ended up working out that way. Sids wasn't expecting Vader to suffer those injuries and end up looking like that. And by ROTJ, Sids was looking for a replacement again. If there's any trend, its that the apprentices are replacable under Sidious. They're just tools carrying out his will.

Vader could have been better than Sids, and possibly could have gone down as one of the (if not the) greatest Sith Lord ever. Unfortunately, he destroyed his own potential on Mustafar. After that, he was pretty much locked into the #2 slot behind Sidious with little chance of ever toppling him.

But with Dooku, yeah, there was never much potential or future for him as a Sith. He was old. He was skilled/powerful, but Sidious would need more longevity, someone who would eventually be able to continue the Sith line as Master one day. That wasn't going to be Dooku. He was a placeholder for certain.

Now Sids might have had greater expectations for Maul. There was a guy who could intimidate. Unfortunately, he had a moment of overconfidence similar to Vader on Mustafar. And ended up just a bit worse off. :wink: This is interesting. Perhaps Sidious was too quick to toss his young apprentices out into the world. Instead of stroking their egos so much ("You have been well trained, my young apprentice. They will be no match for you." "I have said it many times, you are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met."), he should have knocked them down a few pegs.

Dooku at least, I'm certain, had a better grasp of his strengths/limitations.

[RollaFett]

Yeah. Its not even close there. But again, it just ended up working out that way. Sids wasn't expecting Vader to suffer those injuries and end up looking like that.
Well, to be fair, there were pluses for Palps either way.
If he doesn't sustain the injuries on Mustafar, then he's still the ultra-powerful dark lord he hoped he'd be. And with that, I'd argue, he'd still have some sense of intimidation.
But with the injuries, he's stuck in the suit, which was scary as hell.
Either way, Palps wins.


But with Dooku, yeah, there was never much potential or future for him as a Sith. He was old. He was skilled/powerful, but Sidious would need more longevity, someone who would eventually be able to continue the Sith line as Master one day. That wasn't going to be Dooku. He was a placeholder for certain.
Exactly. I mean, just consider Palps line to Grievous:
"His death was a necessary loss. Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful."
CLEARLY, Rags, Palps had been planning to replace Dooku with Anakin for some time.

[Raganork8]

CLEARLY, Rags, Palps had been planning to replace Dooku with Anakin for some time.

Because he said that?


What else would he say

"Damn Grievous i know he's dead...we're just gonna have to stick this one out till we get someone better!"


I agree; Dooku was not part of the whole plan; but, I'm saying that had Anakin been killed; the Galaxy would have a harder time rebounding from a Dooku/Palps Team than a Vader/Palps team.

[borgmatrix]

Well, to be fair, there were pluses for Palps either way.
It's one of Sids greatest strengths. He's very able to adapt his plans based on how things flow. Even setbacks he can make use of.

[RollaFett]

Because he said that?


What else would he say

"Damn Grievous i know he's dead...we're just gonna have to stick this one out till we get someone better!"
Yes, because he said it. He also said these things:
"And you, young Skywalker; we shall watch your career with great interest."
"You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then, you will be invincible. I have said it many times, you are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met."
"I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda."

Palps began seducing Anakin as soon as he could. Combine that with my belief that he created Anakin as well, and it's even more clear that it was always Palps having Anakin at his side when he took over the galaxy.

I agree; Dooku was not part of the whole plan; but, I'm saying that had Anakin been killed; the Galaxy would have a harder time rebounding from a Dooku/Palps Team than a Vader/Palps team.
If so powerful Dooku was, why want Anakin? [/yodaspeak]:yoda:
Seriously though, if Palps thought that the galaxy would stand no chance with Dooku by his side, then why bother with Anakin at all?

It's one of Sids greatest strengths. He's very able to adapt his plans based on how things flow. Even setbacks he can make use of.
Yes. Yes it is. Quite the evil genius...for a couple decades anyway.

[Raganork8]

Yes, because he said it. He also said these things:
"And you, young Skywalker; we shall watch your career with great interest."
"You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then, you will be invincible. I have said it many times, you are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met."
"I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda."

Palps began seducing Anakin as soon as he could. Combine that with my belief that he created Anakin as well, and it's even more clear that it was always Palps having Anakin at his side when he took over the galaxy.


If so powerful Dooku was, why want Anakin? [/yodaspeak]:yoda:
Seriously though, if Palps thought that the galaxy would stand no chance with Dooku by his side, then why bother with Anakin at all?


Yes. Yes it is. Quite the evil genius...for a couple decades anyway.

He also said "I love Democracy"

Palpatine didn't think that of dooku; Dooku would have turned on him; Dooku has no sons or daughters to bring him back to the lightside.


I agree with you and Borgmatrix.

[Tovor]

Yeah, but what you wrote is still related to Dooku.
One point being argued in this thread is how Palps always wanted Anakin/Vader as his true apprentice, and that Dooku only served a specific purpose and was replacable.
What you say is an excellent way of describing why Palps wanted Vader.
Rags, yes you like Dooku, but when you get down to it, was he really intimidating the way Vader was? I'd say no.
Exactly, each one served a purpose. Dooku split the Republic by his charms and charisma, but Vader kept the imperial ranks together by fear.

[Kommandant Felix]

Hey, maybe I missed this (I rarely have the patience to read through all 4 pages of this thread)...but has anyone read the ROTS novelization? It sort of lets us into Dooku's head. To me, he didn't seem like a true Sith...he just wanted to reform the Jedi Order by any means necessary. He saw grievous flaws, and so wanted to change them. In his perspective, Sidious would reform the Jedi Order with him at the head.

So, I think Dooku was more misguided and rogue than actually a Sith. A lost Jedi, per say, perhaps driven to the brink of insanity by the Jedi Councils lack of action to his old Padawan's death.

[borgmatrix]

He HAD to get rid of Dooku because at the end of the war; Dooku would have undoubtedly betrayed him and possibly throw the galaxy out of any possible reach for Palpatine to control.
Sith apprentices will always eventually betray the Master (or try to). It's expected. That lust for power is desired. It's at the core of what the Sith are. It's there nature. No Master would want a whipped apprentice who's too cowed to try to seize power. It goes completely against what the Sith are about. It's what makes the Jedi weak in their eyes. They don't want that.

Sids had nothing to fear from Tyranus. He could have kept him on as apprentice. But he wanted someone more powerful, as he specifically stated to Grievous. Not someone weaker or power-shackled. Stronger. As I've said in multiple threads, and just said over in the evil Obi-wan thread, Palpatine was orgasmic over Anakin's power. I'm not just pulling that out because I think it sounds good. Get out your copy of ROTS and watch Palpatine's reaction as he talks about Anakin's power. Look at his expression. Listen to his voice. There's no other word that captures as perfectly his reaction to Anakin's potential. He new Anakin was extraordinarily powerful and he wanted that.

As we've stated, and as Rolla was saying, Sids is brilliant at using even defeats and the unexpected to his advantage. That was the case with Vader post-Mustafar. But it was not intended or desired. It worked out. It had its own advantages. But it was not desired.

[Sargoth]

Hey, maybe I missed this (I rarely have the patience to read through all 4 pages of this thread)...but has anyone read the ROTS novelization? It sort of lets us into Dooku's head. To me, he didn't seem like a true Sith...he just wanted to reform the Jedi Order by any means necessary. He saw grievous flaws, and so wanted to change them. In his perspective, Sidious would reform the Jedi Order with him at the head.



Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you, it will! :yoda:

Dooku sees the Republic buried in corruption. He sees the Jedi as fallen from their true calling.... He sees a deal with Sidious as a way of fixing this. What he, like Anakin doesn't see, is that a deal with a Sith Lord is a Faustian "Deal with the Devil". Dooku signed the contract. He is a true Sith, weather he wants to be or not.

The Sith will promise to fulfill your most heartfelt desires, if you will simply join with them. Tyrannus tempted Obi-Wan with the destruction of the Sith and restoration of the Republic. Sidious tempted Dooku with a new political system and a renewed Jedi Order. He tempted Anakin with the power to save his family. And Vader tempted Luke with being united with the Father he never knew, but always idolized.

[Raganork8]

Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you, it will! :yoda:


Forever?

Like Vader forever or actually forever?

[Sargoth]

^You wanted an example of how powerful Anakin was. There you go! :P

[RollaFett]

Aha! That actually is a great example of how powerful he is. Even 20 years later, Vader is powerful enough to escape the grip of the dark side.

[Raganork8]

Dooku...

[Raganork8]

^You wanted an example of how powerful Anakin was. There you go! :P

since when is thinking rationally power?

he came to his senses because he loved Padme, something that the Dark Side never took control of.

I think Anakin's biggest attribute was that he was weak; he had a weak spot in his heart for people he cared about; this brought about Vader; which in turn would bring about Palpatine's demise.

His power wasn't what did it; his circumstance was.

The Prophecy (as I see it; but then again I don't know what it states exactly) was a tool in itself. Had Anakin not been speculated to be the chosen one I doubt Palps would have wanted him so much and thusly he would not have taken him to the dark side.

So the prophecy KNEW Anakin would turn and wanted that; so it needed a host of weakness and Anakin proved to be just that