Prequels? Well, Originally George...

[lovelucas]

Premise is: the concepts, dialogue, ideas that were in the books-keeping in mind that George approved every word - that didn't make it to the films and therefore aren't "canon" but reveal much. Things you bought, or are willing to consider as part of the Star Wars story because they were approved by the Maker.

TPM - The depths of Obi-Wan's disdain and arrogance for both Jar Jar and Anakin. and his rebelliousness and impatience that were attributed to his Padawan status. That Qui Gon had to remind him, more than once, that he didn't know everything - in the book Obi-Wan is repeatedly indicating, either in his words or thoughts, that Qui-Gon is mistaken in his "detours" (and that word is used). and how familiar we are with these traits that are all Anakin.

RotS - Padme revealing that she doesn't believe she will live much longer, and this was way before Mustafar.

There are many others - I am re-reading all the prequel novels and a lightbulb was lit.

Anyone wondering about the reference in TPM about the old pilot sensing something special in Anakin? Who was that suppose to be?

[Kam Solusar]

RotS is the freshest in my mind so here are a few things I wish they could have either left in or included.

The delegation of 2000. In the novels, this gives more leverage to Palpatine with Anakin, further confusing him. This may have helped those people that felt Anakins turn was too abrupt. It was probably cut more because you don't really need to understand why and how the Rebellion was formed, it's easily inferred, but I felt the stuff relating to Padmes involvement and Anakins knowledge of it would have helped the overall plot.

The notion of the Jedi that the Sith Lord they were looking for was an aide of Palpatine, not Palpy himself. This assumption (including the idea that they dismiss him because he already "controls the galaxy") simulteounasly makes them seem wise, stupid, and arrogant, and is a greater insight in to their downfall. I thought the parody A Lost Hope said it best with Palpatine in front of the Senate: "I'm here to announce," *raises hood* "that you're all morons."

Palpatines audio recording of his arrest. In the movie as it were, the Senate takes an awful lot at face value about the entire Jedi Order rebelling. That audio recording, masterfully manipulated at the time by Palpatine, would have cleared that all up in a short amount of time.

Those are really the main ones. I'd also have liked the concept of the Jedi Trap and the revelation that the entire Clone Wars was a huge Jedi Trap, but who would Palpatine have discussed that with?

[RollaFett]

Ahhh yes...I recall many good points in both the AOTC and ROTS novels that I wish made into the films.
AOTC: The romance. Upon reading the book, I really felt as though Padme's decision to give a romance with Anakin a shot was really well explained. If you just watch the flick, it's kind of hard to like Anakin too much, and really hard to figure out why Padme fell in love with him. There certainly are enough theories and defenses on this board to explain it, and I won't get into all of that here, but the book really nailed it, IMO.

ROTS: As Kam has already brought up, the Jedi thinking that Sidious was in Palpy's inner circle was a great subplot in the book, and sorely missed in the film. A throwaway line by Mace, "The darkside surrounds the chancellor", wasn't near good enough. Also, as Kam noted, Palpy's secret recording of the attempted arrest was genius in the book! Not only was it a great example of Palpy's scumbag-ness, but Palpy killing the Jedi was presented in a much cooler fasion than the lame version we saw on-screen.

[Tovor]

I agree with everything said above, by all those above me.



...and the revelation that the entire Clone Wars was a huge Jedi Trap, but who would Palpatine have discussed that with?

Perhaps Sly Moore, or Mas Amedda? Or earlier, to Tyrannus (as there was conversation between them in the book, before Anakin and Obi-Wan arrived to "rescue" Palpatine)?


AOTC: The romance. Upon reading the book, I really felt as though Padme's decision to give a romance with Anakin a shot was really well explained.

Because of her discussion with her sister, about Padme having put politics before family and enjoying life, or something to that effect?

[P-Ray]

Ahhh yes...I recall many good points in both the AOTC and ROTS novels that I wish made into the films.
AOTC: The romance. Upon reading the book, I really felt as though Padme's decision to give a romance with Anakin a shot was really well explained. If you just watch the flick, it's kind of hard to like Anakin too much, and really hard to figure out why Padme fell in love with him. There certainly are enough theories and defenses on this board to explain it, and I won't get into all of that here, but the book really nailed it, IMO.


Very true! I remember thinking that after reading the novel for AotC.

[RollaFett]

Because of her discussion with her sister, about Padme having put politics before family and enjoying life, or something to that effect?

Yeah, something to that effect.

[Mothman]

This discussion has inspired me to read the novelizations. I own them all, but have only gotten around to reading parts of them.

(I own a book for 30 years. You'd think I would have read it all the way through by now.)





:bye:

[Darill Cyllem]

Great points, all - I particularly agree about the romance from AOTC - this is perhaps my favorite sw novel, but i must say i'm not too keen on the movie. The story is great, obviously, but for me the book was executed better, particularly in the Padme-Anakin story line.

I also agree that we should have seen more of what Padme was doing during ROTS. That would have kept her character both more consistent and more interesting in that movie. The deleted scenes would have been great - wish they'd been kept in the theatrical version as it also helps explain the divide between Padme and Anakin, Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, and shows Padme still being active instead of limiting her to moping around, crying, and being pregnant.

[lovelucas]

Guys - great insight by all but this was never intended to be a negative thread. The intention was: things you read in the books that were not included in the films but you can buy as part of the story because they all were originally approved by George.

Should be all warm fuzzies w/o saying how stupid it was that George didn't include them/it. IOW - no back-handed compliments, please. Enjoy re-reading the books and post what you found...

[Darill Cyllem]

Sorry if i was too negative - i wanted to highlight how i felt the movies could have been improved by including things from the novels, or even deleted scenes. I don't always get the rationale for changing things, but i don't mean to imply that anyone is "stupid."
That said, it's hard to comment on what i liked that got left out of the movies without wishing it hadn't been left out.

[Kam Solusar]

Yeah, what she said.

But in the vein of "things we buy as canon," I'd say Mace's shatterpoint ability would fall in to that. Never mentioned once in the movies. Also, Anakin's further motivation and hunger to be declared a Master being fueled by his intense desire to be allowed to scour the archives.

[Darth Nameless]

Yeah, what she said.

But in the vein of "things we buy as canon," I'd say Mace's shatterpoint ability would fall in to that. Never mentioned once in the movies. Also, Anakin's further motivation and hunger to be declared a Master being fueled by his intense desire to be allowed to scour the archives.

that hit it home...the fact of why anakin was so upset when he wasnt made a master would have made more sence if more of the reason was left in!

[lovelucas]

Kam - great call on Shatterpoint....but regarding Anakin wanting access to the archives, wasn't that motivated by him trying to find the way to protect Padme?

a few other concepts in the books: in the TPM book - C3PO has the "3" because Anakin wanted it to signify that he was part of his family of three - Shmi, himself and the droid of many words. Also in TPM book Terry Brooks writes of the ability of Anakin to connect with "other creatures", that he intuitively knew what they would do before they did, adding to Anakin's ability with the reek on Geonosis in AotC.

[Darth Nameless]

that was the theme of the whole reason for him turning to the dark side is to save padme...just wish they would have put more of the reasoning in the movie

[lovelucas]

correct - but there was an implication in an earlier post that Anakin was seeking access to the archives purely as a selfish pursuit for more power for himself when what he was searching for was....preventative medicine for Padme.

[Kam Solusar]

He wanted to see the archives badly before he had his visions of Padme's death. He felt there was a great many things about the Force the Master Jedi were not telling him. Not to mention the fact that wanting to keep her alive was a selfish power move on his part. She seems pretty consigned to whatever fate is going to become her when Anakin tells her of the vision. It's one of those selfish acts that appears selfless.

[lovelucas]

well, from a certain point of view...
however if you try to save someone you love from dying would you consider yourself selfish or heroic? or...?

[RollaFett]

When it comes to a Jedi, it becomes selfish because you're trying to preserve a 'posession'. As Yoda clearly stated when Anakin told him of his visions, "Miss them do no, mourn them do not. You must learn to let go."

[Kam Solusar]

well, from a certain point of view...
however if you try to save someone you love from dying would you consider yourself selfish or heroic? or...?

Isn't the crux of Anakin's problem that he perceives himself wholly differently than he should? Yes, he perceives himself heroic, but it was his intense fear of losing Padme that drove him to such great lengths in order to save her. That's not really heroic.

That's something else from the book...Anakins self derision over being called The Hero With No Fear.

[Darill Cyllem]

well, from a certain point of view...
however if you try to save someone you love from dying would you consider yourself selfish or heroic? or...?
I think it depends if the person wants to be saved.

[lovelucas]

that's interesting....
but seems like everyone would want to go on living, at least at the stage where Anakin is attempting to seek a solution from the archives. No one knew that the Republic was lost at this part of the story. Padmé didn't know Anakin was doing the dark side dance because at this stage, he wasn't.

Another point from TPM book that so illustrates that George really wanted to stress Anakin was a good, unselfish child who, as Shmi says, gave without wanting anything in return: Anakin is sent by Watto to bargain with the Jawas. On the return trip he comes across a Tusken Raider near death who has been injured and is trapped. Even though C3PO does the nervous Nellie bit and warns Anakin about the danger of getting too close to the Raider, Anakin continues to try to aid the Tusken, to the point of staying all night with him rather than abandon him. In his thoughts he sees that here is a situation where the formidable, fearless, vicious Tusken Raider is helpless and beholden to his rescuer - the Raider is even a bit afraid, which surprises Anakin. So Anakin thinks to himself that he's never been afraid of anything....then he goes deeper and thinks - but what if something happened to his mother, would he be so fearless? and all of a sudden he is feels his courage leave him...



and for those who insist that every motive Anakin has is selfish - if you risk your life to run in a burning house to save your children, are you being selfish because you can't live w/o them? And this is what losing Padmé feels like to Anakin - who has already seen the nightmare predicting the death of his mother come true. It's very, very real to him. He had not acted on those nightmares in time to save his mother - does this not create a very real urgency to take action in time, remembering that Anakin will say, "I won't make this mistake again". - "I could have saved her....I know I could have"

[Kam Solusar]

I never said that every motive Anakin has is selfish, but look at the lengths he goes to save Padme from a death that she doesn't seem to fear herself. Like I said, he sees himself much differently than he actually is, and that's not wholly his fault. He's torn between two forces (pun intended) and is being manipulated by the master manipulator himself.

I guess that's another part of the RotS novel that I wish made it in. The conversation between Anakin and Palpatine where Palpy basically says "I like you so much, you ask me anything of me right now, and I'll make it happen." To me, this conversation should have been included and considered canon because this conversation, more than the opera one, plants that last seed in Anakin that blooms when he attacks Windu.

[Darill Cyllem]

^Ooo, great example, Kam. :)

[lovelucas]

all good stuff - lots can still be found!

[Darth Nameless]

I never said that every motive Anakin has is selfish, but look at the lengths he goes to save Padme from a death that she doesn't seem to fear herself. Like I said, he sees himself much differently than he actually is, and that's not wholly his fault. He's torn between two forces (pun intended) and is being manipulated by the master manipulator himself.

I guess that's another part of the RotS novel that I wish made it in. The conversation between Anakin and Palpatine where Palpy basically says "I like you so much, you ask me anything of me right now, and I'll make it happen." To me, this conversation should have been included and considered canon because this conversation, more than the opera one, plants that last seed in Anakin that blooms when he attacks Windu.

but it is also at this point of the story that we find out he wouldnt mind taking it all if it was offered to him

[Kam Solusar]

I don't know about you, but I knew from previous statements and actions that he wasn't happy with the status quo, and would gladly "take it all" if it were offered to him. He had a strong sense of unfulfilled entitlement from the beginning of AotC onward. The guys been heralded as this prophetic hero from the get and all he sees the Jedi doing is keeping him out of the loop.

[Rabid Whiphid]

Okay - I've got one. In the RotS novel, there are constant reminders of just how worn out and exhausted Anakin is throughout the entire Episode3 time period. It explained that Anakin had spent the past 6 to 9 months (prior to Ep.3) getting very little rest while constantly travelling around the galaxy with Obi-Wan to participate in one battle after another.

For Anakin, the Battle of Coruscant, which opens Ep.3, was the last conflict of this harrowing period of non-stop fighting. He probably would have been sent onward with Obi-Wan to Utapau to continue the hunt for General Grievous, but at the last minute he got assigned the job of Palpatine's personal bodyguard - a less physically demanding job but another situation that demanded him to stay on-call at all-hours.

The point is, the novel stressed that Anakin had been tired and overworked for a long time already, that he barely got a break as the story went on, and that his weary state of mind contributed to him being more vulnerable to Palpatine's evil influence.

It makes a lot of sense if you ask me. I don't think it would make Anakin seem any less heroic if that exhaustion and weariness had been suggested in the film. In fact I think it might possibly have made Anakin seem even more gritty and noble and real. On top of all that, it would have been very supportive to the logic and believability of his turn to the Dark Side.

[Kam Solusar]

Also a good one.

Yeah, anything that related to Anakins turn from RotS should be considered canon, if you ask me. All of it was good.

[Darill Cyllem]

Great point, Whiphid - makes total sense to me, and i agree that showing at least some of his exhaustion would not have detracted from Anakin's heroics. If you can carry on in the face of your own stress and exhaustion, that's more impressive to me than if one never feels those things.

[Cryogenic]

Curious question.

I think the problem with asking something like this is that it's easy to ruminate on what could and couldn't (substitute with the more didactic: "should and shouldn't") have been included in the films. Ergo, I'll give an example of where I think an idea may have benefited the films with its inclusion, and one that works better left out:

- Anakin tending to the Tusken Raider. Including this may have heightened the change in him later on. The perversity of him going from helping a young one to killing a bunch of them -- and, later still, the younglings in the Jedi Temple -- could have been dramatically boosted with this placed in. Having him think about his mother and face down his fear is also interesting. A part of me says it clashes with his naive outlook .... i.e. when he faces the Jedi Council and they cross examine him .... yet that scene isn't necessarily contradicted, for Anakin zips up after Yoda says he senses much fear in him, implying that he has no comeback because he knows it to be true after Yoda's admonition. Everything fits.

- I find Padme's observation that she doesn't expect to live much longer (ROTS novelisation) to be very elegiac, almost profound. I think that that remark is a deep insight into her character ("beautiful, yet sad"), but I also think it works better in the book. The ROTS novelisation tends to be very explicit, while more is implied in the film itself. The book seems more poetic with verbalised thoughts and feelings, while the film is more poetic in terms of how the superficially simplistic dialogue finds full expression and validation in the visuals, music and themes -- y'know, cinema.

Another one I wish to add (in a similar vein to the "Threepio" explanation):

I think it's in a visual guide:

The "laser walls" that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon encounter on Theed when facing Maul are meant to be part of Naboo mythology and are the six gates holding back chaos. I love that idea. We not only have a mythological paradigm within a mythology, but a pretty darn powerful metaphor for the duel itself and what is truly at stake.

Another one:

This one is "in film", but it's such a doozy that I have to include it (observations originally made by MisterVader of TFN):

When Palpatine declares that he shall create a Grand Army of the Republic, he's really stealing the idea from the Gungans. It's Jar Jar who first utters the phrase in Palpatine's office (ha!) in TPM, while the army itself is like an organic version of the mechanised Imperial walkers we see in AOTC and TESB. It's very appropriate that the saga begins at Naboo -- for that's where everything (good and bad) blooms from.

[Rabid Whiphid]

When Palpatine declares that he shall create a Grand Army of the Republic, he's really stealing the idea from the Gungans. It's Jar Jar who first utters the phrase in Palpatine's office (ha!) in TPM, while the army itself is like an organic version of the mechanised Imperial walkers we see in AOTC and TESB. It's very appropriate that the saga begins at Naboo -- for that's where everything (good and bad) blooms from.

Wow - THAT is a great observation. Jar Jar DID say "Grand Army" didn't he? That's really, really interesting.

[Darth Massacrus]

The notion of the Jedi that the Sith Lord they were looking for was an aide of Palpatine, not Palpy himself. This assumption (including the idea that they dismiss him because he already "controls the galaxy")

I wish they had put this one in the film, as well as the parts where the Jedi say that it would be impossible to interrogate those same aides and advisors, or where Mace discusses with Obi-Wan that Sidious could also be hiding amongst the Red Guards.

[lovelucas]

A glimpse of the history of the Sith is also included in TPM book –
Via the thoughts of Darth Sidious –
The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. ………
Summarized: a rogue knight founded the Sith who understood the real power of the Force lay in the dark side…..gains followers – the war against the Jedi is doomed due to Sith destroying themselves in attempts to gain power – all died except one…
Darth Bane…

And a glimpse of the essence of the Force, via Qui-Gon’s thoughts: The Force was a complex and difficult concept. The Force was rooted in the balance of all things, and every movement within its flow risked an upsetting of that balance. A Jedi sought to keep the balance in place. . . . . .But the Force existed on more than one plane, and achieving mastery of its multiple passages was a lifetime’s work. Or more. (my emphasis) He knew his own weakness. He was too close to the life Force when he should have been more attentive to the unifying Force. He found himself reaching out to the creatures of the present……He had less regard for the past or the future…. It was the life Force that bound him, that gave him heart and mind and spirit.

So it was he empathized with Anakin Skywalker in ways that other Jedi would discourage, finding in this boy a promise he could not ignore. Obi-Wan would see the boy and Jar Jar in the same light – useless burdens, pointless projects, unnecessary distractions. Obi-Wan was grounded in the need to focus on the larger picture, on the unifying Force. He lacked Qui-Gon’s intuitive nature….etc…. This was not a criticism, only an observation. Who was to say that either of them was the better for how they interpreted the demands of the Force? But it placed them at odds sometimes, and more often than not it was Obi-Wan’s position the Council supported, not Qui-Gon’s. It would be that way again, he knew. Many times.

[lovelucas]

Dreams fade in time…..

..not this one… from TPM –

Anakin Skywalker dreamed that night….He was young still, though not so young as now, but old, too. He was cut from stone and his thoughts were emblazoned with a vision so frightening he could not bring himself to consider it fully…..It was vague and shadowy…..He turned away from a wave of dark movement that suddenly appeared before him…..

Padmé tries to wake him up with: “I hope you’re about finished”, he heard Padmé say. But Padmé was at the head of the dark wave of his dream, and the wave was an army, marching toward him. . . .

Anakin is now awake –
Anakin stared up at Padmé. .. . . . Yet he stared at her in confusion, for she had been the central figure in his dream, different from now, older, sadder. . . .and something more.

And this when Anakin learns he will have to leave Shmi…

He had dreamed about other words…..about becoming a pilot…and about becoming a Jedi. …..of becoming something more than a slave. He had wanted that more than anything….but he had never, ever considered the possibility he would have to leave his mother behind.

He is torn……but eventually –
“I will become a Jedi….and I will come back and free you, Mom. I promise.” Shmi replies: “No matter where you are, my love will be with you.”

[lovelucas]

continuing -
This is in response to Qui Gon noting a vergence in the Force located around Anakin as a preface to his request to train him -
Qui-Gon nodded. "His cells have the highest concentration of midi-chlorians I have ever seen in a life-form.....It is possible he was conceived by midi-chlorians."
There was a shocked silence... Qui-Gon Jinn was suggesting the impossible, that the boy was conceived not by human contact, but by the essence of all life, by the connectors to the Force itself, the midi-chlorians. Comprising collective consciousness and intelligence, the midi-chlorians formed the link between everything living and the Force.
But there was more that troubled the Jedi Council. There was a prophecy, so old its origins had long since been lost, that a chosen one would appear, imbued with an abundance of midi-chlorians, a being strong with the Force and destined to alter it forever.

[lovelucas]

continuing this conversation with myself:

Evidence that R2 had flight capabilities – TPM book
The little droid beeped at Anakin cheerfully, then wandered over to the edge of the rampway to looking down at the traffic. In doing so, he leaned out too far and tumbled over, Anakin gasped, but a second later the astromech droid reappeared, boosted back onto the rampway by his onboard jets.

and Rolla - you'll find that excerpt on page 240

[RollaFett]

Hmmmm...I don't recall that passage. Of course, it's been about 8 years since I read the book as well.

[lovelucas]

more about the polarization caused by Anakin -

During the Jedi Council session discussing Anakin’s future:
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan exchanged quick, hard looks, and the measure of their newfound antagonism was palpable. The breach in their relationship was widening so quickly it could no longer be mapped.

And post Jedi Council discussion where Qui-Gon attempts to take Anakin as his Padawan Learner, shocking everyone, including Obi-Wan:
“It is not disrespect, Master!” Obi-Wan was saying vehemently. “It is the truth!”
“From your point of view, perhaps.” Qui –Gon’s face was hard and tight with anger.
Obi-Wan: “The boy is dangerous. They all sense it. Why can’t you?”
Qui-Gon: “His fate is uncertain, but he is not dangerous. The Council will decide Anakin’s future. That should be enough for you.” He turned away dismissively, “Now get on board!”
And just a reminder – Anakin heard the entire conversation.

And a tad later:
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan stood together some distance away. The Jedi still weren’t speaking to each other….. The hard feelings caused by Qui-Gon’s bid to train Anakin did not soften. The boy had tried to talk to Obi-Wan once aboard the Queen’s ship, just to say he was sorry this had happened, but the younger Jedi had brushed him off. And when Obi-Wan finally puts everything together on Mustafar, do you think he remembers these times and all that went into making Anakin who he was? and does he remember how dangerous they thought Anakin was, even as a boy? Did he blame Anakin for Qui-Gon's death?

And even later:
Obi-Wan was beginning to feel uncomfortable with the situation... ..
Qui-Gon was like a father to him, the only father he knew (sound familiar?). He was angry that the Jedi Master would dismiss him so abruptly in favor of the boy, but he realized, too, the depth of Qui-Gon’s passion when he believed in something. He did not do so to slight his protégé. He did so because he believed in the boy’s destiny.

[Kam Solusar]

And just a reminder – Anakin heard the entire conversation.



And THAT definitely should have been in the movie. They didn't even have to make a huge deal out of it, like showing his reaction. Lucas just could have had Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan walk out of frame, and right behind them is Anakin. Close enough that he would have obviously heard them. As also a quick scene were Anakin tries to "console" Obi-Wan and gets brushed off.

[Darth Nameless]

in a way GL did show anakin was listening...he came up to qui-gon and said "qui-gon sir i dont want to be a problem sir"

[Kam Solusar]

Yeah, but it's a bit ambiguous. He was also in the Council Chambers when Qui-Gon pretty much said "screw you, I'm doing it anyway" and it was pretty obvious that Anakin realized (in that scene) that Qui-Gon was sticking his neck out a bit. He could have been responding to that.

[lovelucas]

^^^^^that is spot on correct!^^^^^^ doh! that was actually in response to Darth Nameless's observation that Anakin was indeed standing right there -

[Kam Solusar]

Who me? (checks for sunshine on the dog's ass)

[lovelucas]

con't on:
Anakin observing bridging the gap of broken friendship:

At least Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were talking again. They had begun doing so on the journey ….a few words here, a few there, exchanging comments guardedly, testing the waters (and haven’t we’ve all done this? – regrets, and trying to get back to normalcy). Anakin had listened carefully, more attuned to the nuances of their conversation than others could be, hearing in the inflection of their voices more than simply the words spoken, that they felt comfortable again, there were smiles, brief and almost sad, but clear in their purpose. The Jedi were old friends and their relationship that of a father and son. They did not want to toss it all away over a single disagreement. Anakin was thankful for that – especially since the disagreement in question was over him.

[lovelucas]

Duel of the Fates defined:

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order. The Jedi Master he had trained under has considered him one of the best the Master had taught in his more than 400 years in the order. He had survived battles that had tested his skill and resolve in every conceivable way.
But on this day, he had met his match. ……Qui-Gon was nearing 60; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him (this is noted after recognizing that Darth Maul had the advantage of being younger and stronger and that he was more than his equal in weapons training).
Obi-Wan brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened. Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord…….
Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition he was driven by his messianic hated for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia.

And all of this perhaps you have surmised all of this just by watching TPM but I found the descriptions of the duel and the duelists chilling and compelling.

[lovelucas]

the inevitable - since we already know....but there's more to learn:

This – after all they are trapped within the service corridor’s 6 security/protective gates:

Obi-Wan prowled the front end of the service corridor to the melting pit like a caged animal. He was furious at himself for getting trapped so far from Qui-Gon and furious with Qui-Gon for letting this happen by rushing ahead instead of of waiting for him. But he was worried, too.
Down the way, pinned between two walls of laser beams, Qui-Gon Jinn knelt in meditation…his head lowered over his lightsaber. He was gathering himself for a final assault, bringing himself in tune with the Force. Obi-Wan did not like the weariness he saw in the slump of the older man’s shoulders…..He was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen, but he was growing old.

and Mothman is always looking for a line to have fun with {le sigh}

[Mothman]

Duel of the Fates defined:

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order.....


That's what she said! :wink:






:bye:

[lovelucas]

The Sith Lord parried a downstroke, whirled swiftly to the right, and with his back to the Jedi Master, made a blind, reverse lunge. Too late, Qui-Gon recognized the danger. The blade of the Sith Lord’s lightsaber caught him directly in the midsection, its brilliant length burning through clothing and flesh and bone.

Obi-Wan thought he heard the Jedi Master scream, then realized it was himself, calling his friend’s name in despair.


and I am right back there in TPM, seeing Ewan's face and it is indeed full of despair

[lovelucas]

This one...this one really made me stop and think....

But it was a nine-year-old boy who had saved them all. Even without knowing exactly what he was doing........It was the destruction of the central transmitter that had caused the droid army to freeze in place...etc. Anakin claimed not to have attacked with any sort of plan in mind or fired his starfighter's torpedoes with any expectation of hitting the reactor. But after hearing the boy's tale and questioning him thoroughly, Obi-Wan believed Anakin was guided by something more than the thinking of ordinary men. That extraordinarily high midi-chlorian count gave the boy a connection to the Force that even Jedi Masters on the order of Yoda might never achieve. Qui-Gon, he now believed, had been right. Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one.

- - -
He stopped his pacing and stared momentarily at nothing, thinking of Qui-Gon Jinn, his Master, his teacher, his friend. He had failed Qui-Gon in life. But he would carry on his work now, honoring him in death by fulfilling his promise to train the boy, no matter what.
Listen to me, he thought, smiling ruefully. I sound like him.

[lovelucas]

from the AotC book - if you recall (I didn't) it begins with Anakin's dream that turns into a nightmare - this is towards the end of the nightmare:

He tried to call out to her, to ask her what she needed him to do, ask her how he could help. Her face twisted even more, blood running from her eyes.... Glass! She ws glass! - Teh blood ran fast over her smooth surface. And her expression, a look of resignation and apology, a look that said she had failed him and that he had failed her.........
He tried to reach out for her, tried to save her.....He cried out repeatedly, reached for her desperately. The he thought of the Force, and sent his thoughs there with all his willpower, reaching for her with all his energy.

But then, she shattered.

so..does this mean using the Force would contribute to her death?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Possibly, I guess.

When I read that I was thinking more of how Anakin could not necessarily see the future using the force as 'always in motion the future is'. So the glass shattering signified his inability to read the future and also the fact that he had no control over events, despite being able to use the force.

[lovelucas]

good possibility too. ^^^ either way it certainly was a nightmare and not a dream.


later in the book: A conversation between Mace and Yoda:
Mace: "The prophecy is coming true. The dark side is growing."
Yoda: "And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future. Only by probing the dark side can we see."

speculation for - did either of them do a dark side dance, was this an advisement or a warning from Yoda not to go there?
Continuing: [Yoda's] expression showing.....that reminded Mace that they didn't know what bringing balance to the Force might truly mean.

Couple of surprises for me - That the growth of the dark side is part of the prophecy and the Jedi acknowledge that - therefore why would they doubt that latter part of the prophecy or is it just being unsure if it is to be Anakin who will fulfill it, and that neither of them knew what the balance actually meant (this is back in AotC days, years before that conversation Yoda had with Mace and Obi-Wan).
and - that it almost sounds like Yoda is considering the possibility of using the dark side to see the future or at least reminding Mace that is the only way to do so. Was this always so? "The dark side clouds everything" - so...wonder what the soothsaying abilities were of the Jedi back in the TPM days and earlier, since they were incredulous about Qui-Gon's diagnosis that Maul was a Sith.

[Tovor]

So ironic, it was, that Yoda knew so much about the Sith Rule of Two, but so little about the Jedi prophesy. Just throwing that in the mix.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I have always had (and maintain to this day) the feeling that Yoda knew far more than he told to others. Of course, any tangent I go off at now is EU, so I won't go there, but I would love to have more background into Yoda's knowledge and what he has used the force for.

[Raganork8]

I don't think so; I always looked at it as; the Dream Ended; if anything I thought his reaching out kept her alive; and when he reached her their became more solidified allowing her to die after seeing her grown son.

[lovelucas]

good one Raganork - yep - that'a flip side of the theory.
Speaking of theories, I've always thought that Palpatine had something to do with the Tuskens capturing and torturing Shmi as he knew Anakin would never ignore his mother in severe pain and suffering and he knew Anakin would be able to sense her condition, therefore brings him into the master plan.

Just a theory.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I have also thought about that LL. But I don't like the idea as that would seem to be along the lines of thinking that Sidious was 'all powerful' rather than just a very good manipulator of each situation as he came across it. Still, an interesting possibility.

[RollaFett]

Yeah, but I love the idea of Sids being 'all powerful'. I've heard of this theory before about him arranging the kidnapping of Shmi, and I kind of dug it.
Once Lucas dropped that hint in ROTS about manipulating midi's to create life, my respect for the 'all powerful' Palpatine increased tenfold.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ You mean the secret that he may or may not have learnt from Darth Plagueis? :nahnah: "It is a secret only one has discovered, but I know if we work together............." (or words to that effect, it's not a direct quote, so no-one bash me for it. :lol:)

[JediBendu]

good one Raganork - yep - that'a flip side of the theory.
Speaking of theories, I've always thought that Palpatine had something to do with the Tuskens capturing and torturing Shmi as he knew Anakin would never ignore his mother in severe pain and suffering and he knew Anakin would be able to sense her condition, therefore brings him into the master plan.

Just a theory.

there's probably a few threads devoted to that topic in the archive - the possible involvement of Aura Sing shouldn't be dismissed either

[JediBendu]

Yeah, but I love the idea of Sids being 'all powerful'. I've heard of this theory before about him arranging the kidnapping of Shmi, and I kind of dug it.
Once Lucas dropped that hint in ROTS about manipulating midi's to create life, my respect for the 'all powerful' Palpatine increased tenfold.

people were speculating that he was the one responsible for Anakin's birth through manipulation of midichlorians

[RollaFett]

^ You mean the secret that he may or may not have learnt from Darth Plagueis? :nahnah: "It is a secret only one has discovered, but I know if we work together............." (or words to that effect, it's not a direct quote, so no-one bash me for it. :lol:)

Not exactly. I was actually referring to the 'creating life' power, not the 'saving one from dying' power.

there's probably a few threads devoted to that topic in the archive - the possible involvement of Aura Sing shouldn't be dismissed either

Why? Was there a EU story with her about that?

people were speculating that he was the one responsible for Anakin's birth through manipulation of midichlorians

That's right, and I'm one of those speculators. Hell, I'm 100% convinced, actually, and have been since my first viewing of ROTS.

[lovelucas]

^^^ I still believe The Force is Anakin's father^^^ speaking of fathers:

For all you Fett fans:

From the AotC book, and this is Jango: Jango looked back at Boba, one of his thousands of children but the only one who was a perfect clone, an exact replica with no genetic manipulation to make him more obedient and the only one who hadn’t been artificially aged. The group that had been created beside Boba had all reached maturity and were adult warriors, in perfect health. (That’s the Clone Army)

Later: Taun We seemed genuinely perplexed to see a human with so little apparent regard for other humans, clones or not.

Jango: He was a solitary bounty hunter, a recluse – or he would have been if not for Boba. Jango didn’t care a whit about politics or war or this army of his clones. If every one of them was slaughtered, then so be it. He had no attachment to any…….to any except for Boba.
Boba would give the Jango the pleasure of seeing all that he might have become had he grown up with a loving and caring father, a mentor who cared enough to criticize, to force him to perfection.
This, then, was Jango Fett’s greatest reward, right here, sitting with his son, his young replica, sharing quiet moments.

Bust any bubble for ya or did that give Jango more character?

[RollaFett]

Yeah, I read the novel and kind of remember those passages. And no, it didn't bust any bubble about Jango. It did, however, kill a lot of the mystery about Boba Fett's history, which was kind of a bummer.

[lovelucas]

Rolla - there's still a lot of mystery there. I've never understood, but that's neither good nor bad, that never revealing anything about a character could prove to be so intriguing to so many people.

Here's a bit about Anakin assessing the differences in character between his 1st master and his 2nd..

Talking to Padmé and his differences of opinion on finding the potential assassin: "We should be more aggressive in our search for the assassin ...to sit back and wait is to invite disaster."

Padmé - "Master Kenobi does not agree."
Anakin - "Master Kenobi is bound by the letter of the orders....he won't take a chance on doing anything that isn't explicitly asked of him by the Jedi Council.......Master Kenobi is not like his own Master...Master Qui-Gon understood the need for independent thinking and initiative - otherwise, he would have left me on Tatooine."
Padmé then zeros in with the conclusion - "And you are more like Master Qui-Gon?"

[RollaFett]

Rolla - there's still a lot of mystery there. I've never understood, but that's neither good nor bad, that never revealing anything about a character could prove to be so intriguing to so many people.
Because when we first meet Boba Fett, we absolutely know nothing about him, and learn pratically nothing as well. He looked cool as hell, stood up to Vader, and garnered a cult following. Then, 22 years later, we see him as a little kid, with a "dad" and everything. I'm not saying that Lucas gave him a bad backstory, but to me, it was unnecessary. Hell, I've always thought that Jango never needed to exist. You could have had that same story with Boba Fett and it would've worked fine, IMO.

For more on that line of thought, here's a cool thread:
http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=945

[lovelucas]

Sure give us a visual motive for Boba wanting huge revenge on the good guys - Boba witnesses the death of his father via Jedi and holding his father's helmet in the deepest sorrow.

[JediBendu]

Sure give us a visual motive for Boba wanting huge revenge on the good guys - Boba witnesses the death of his father via Jedi and holding his father's helmet in the deepest sorrow.

I agree with this in part, but the fact that he's an identical clone of Jango means he was pre-disposed to follow him in his line of work.
To me, his status bacame only slightly higher than a production line storm trooper :(

[borgmatrix]

I have to admit that the huge "cult following" thing with Boba in the OT annoyed me. Besides the sorta "cool as hell" armor, I didn't really see anything much better than a stormtrooper anyway. So I took a hell of a lot of delight in the "great" Boba Fett going down like a putz in ROTJ. :devil:

Jango was at least given a cool fight with Obi-wan and I loved the efficiency of Mace's beheading of him. For me, no damage done with the inclusion of Jango. Added a bit more which I thought only helped as far as appreciating Boba more.

Also, with Sidious, I'd have loved to have seen something all-powerful, but I just didn't feel that watching ROTS. The whole maybe he created Anakin thing is interesting, but watching him in epIII vs Yoda, I saw nothing all-powerful at all. He seemed to be, power-wise, on an even keel with Yoda. Sids is powerful, sure, but I think his greatest talent/attribute is as a master of manipulation and deception, which by nature so often (and maybe mostly) involves stretching/twisting/obscuring truth. When he said the "power only one has achieved" bit, it just felt true given the context of what we'd seen in the movie (and saga) as a whole and the type of individual he is.

Also, dramatically, there's a point at which things can be too perfect. And I see that point being reached with the consideration that Sids, in addition to everything we know he did, also creating Anakin and orchestrating the kidnapping of Shmi. Just doesn't feel right to me as far as making the PT dramatically satisfying. I find greater appreciation for Sids accomplishment with a sense that he didn't create/micro-manage every detail everything around him but rather used/twisted things that came his way. That, IMO, is far scarier since one can't control everything. Knowing that doesn't make much difference for someone like Sids, who can find multiple ways of making situations work for him, no matter how things might ebb and flow, I think is truly will-breaking for anyone looking/thinking to oppose him.

[RollaFett]

Sure give us a visual motive for Boba wanting huge revenge on the good guys - Boba witnesses the death of his father via Jedi and holding his father's helmet in the deepest sorrow.

I think you misunderstood me a little. I know exactly what happens with Jango and Boba, but I've never thought it to be particuarly necessary.
While I don't hate the inclusion of Jango in the saga, I have always felt that that role could've easily been filled by Boba. But I don't want to hijack your thread and turn into a Bobe/Jango debate. The thread I provided a link for earlier already contains that.

[lovelucas]

then I'll get sappy and wussfull (new word) -

In the book of AotC when Anakin and Padmé visit the Lake Retreat, Anakin says to Padmé, (recalling when he was last here, during the invasion of Naboo from TPM) that Naboo was his favorite place, and he says to her: "If I grew up here, I don't think I'd ever leave" and telling her that when he misses his mother he feels better just thinking of this beautiful place - he continues: "The way the palace shimmers in the sunlight, the way the air always smells of flowers. And then we have in the book, RotJ this, as Vader is dying:
He smiled up again at his son and for the first time, loved him, And for the first time in many long years, loved himself again, as well.
Suddenly he smelled something - flared his nostrils, sniffed once more. Wildflowers, that was what it was. Just blooming; it must be spring.
~ and with that, I choose to see Anakin returning once again to Naboo where Padmé is waiting for him.

Two books, same saga and as we all know the death of Anakin was written decades before his visit to the Lake Retreat.
An example of why I am LL

[RollaFett]

Never read the ROTJ novel, but that is a pretty cool connection.

[lovelucas]

^^Rolla, that makes me feel so goooood. I thank you

[JediBendu]

An example of why I am LL

I'm beginning to think 'love' is the understatement of the year! :superhappy:

[lovelucas]

Looking for love in all the wrong places?

I just appreciate George and his story and the process: weaving two trilogies filmed decades apart in reverse chronological order. It's also why contrary to some, I do believe George knew the story he wanted to tell...all along, with granted, some modifications. But the heart of this story has always been the belief that good will triumph, that fathers need their sons (and vice versa) and that patience is always a virture but that card can be played by both sides. and so much more....

from cropdusters to philosophical discussions on the nature of good ~

[Raganork8]

I'm always on LL side!

That's a great connection; I literally JUST read that part of the book; and never put it together.

[Darth Apotheosus]

Sheesh, I'm going to admit a serious whimpy moment here, but there's a website out there, I harth Darth or something (and while I think the whole romance of Padme and Anakin is so cheesy on screen...) the little animation of a blue-light Padme tucking in a sleeping Vader and kissing him goodnight... that made me weep. Seriously. Alright... go away before I get sentimental or something!!! I think that hit it along the lines GL aimed for.

[JediBendu]

Sheesh, I'm going to admit a serious whimpy moment here, but there's a website out there, I harth Darth or something (and while I think the whole romance of Padme and Anakin is so cheesy on screen...) the little animation of a blue-light Padme tucking in a sleeping Vader and kissing him goodnight... that made me weep. Seriously. Alright... go away before I get sentimental or something!!! I think that hit it along the lines GL aimed for.

do u mean this site

http://iharthdarth.livejournal.com/

absolute classic!! :D :D :D

[Darth Apotheosus]

That's the one, JediBendu! This should be required reading - it addresses so much!

[lovelucas]

Thank you Raganork -
We are a majority of two


Re-reading AotC - Jango really does love his son

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ I agree. I got that feeling from the movies, why else would he have asked for a clone of himself? I suppose that doing the job he did was not really condusive to having a 'proper' family environment and so this was the next best thing.

Mando males are also shown to be fatherly in some EU novels - but I won't go there in this thread!

[JediBendu]

That's the one, JediBendu! This should be required reading - it addresses so much!

indeed! it's now the second site I hit every morning =)

[JediBendu]

^ I agree. I got that feeling from the movies, why else would he have asked for a clone of himself? I suppose that doing the job he did was not really condusive to having a 'proper' family environment and so this was the next best thing.


how can a clone be considered a son tho? I would've thought his motivation to be purely selfish - recreating and teaching himself by himself

[RollaFett]

Well, he's not technically a son, sure. But to Jango, it's most likely the closest he thought he'd ever get to having offspring, so it's a 'son' to him.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^^ Possibly, I just saw it differently I guess. A chance to have a child without having the ties of a family. A chance to put right some of the things he's done wrong. A chance to teach his 'son' and show his love.

[Darill Cyllem]

*the bio-anthropologist interjects*
A cloned offspring is still your offspring; the offspring has all your genetic material instead of half.

And I definitely liked a bit more detail about Boba and Jango's relationship from the AOTC novel. I thought their father-son thing was well portrayed in the movie, too.

[Darth Apotheosus]

Jango and Boba Fett's relationship is the SW equivalent of a father wanting to raise a Pro-Football player. Only, he gets to train him and teach him all the moves without the humiliation of having Boba say "Hi Mom!" the first time he finds himself on camera.

If Jango wanted a purely trainable "recruit," its more likely he would have had Boba address him as Sir instea of the familiar Dad throughout the movie.

[JediBendu]

If Jango wanted a purely trainable "recruit," its more likely he would have had Boba address him as Sir instea of the familiar Dad throughout the movie.

or he would've picked a more pliable clone - one modified for total obedience

...actually that would be a dream son!! :laughing:

[Darth Apotheosus]

...actually that would be a dream son!!

Aw that would have been boring! What's life without a little aggravation? :nahnah: Then again, if Boba Fett was your son, there would be more than a "little" aggravation.

"Hey, dad! I'm gonna try out those new wrist-rock- FWOOMP! Uh, dad, sorry about the Slave I..."

[JediBendu]

Aw that would have been boring! What's life without a little aggravation? :nahnah:

have u tried reasoning with a 7 year old!?!

[Darth Apotheosus]

have u tried reasoning with a 7 year old!?!

Too often, too often...

[Darth Apotheosus]

I just thought of something...

If Boba Fett is an unaltered clone of Jango, that means he aged normally (yes, I know, Captain Obvious here)

So... did Jango actually change diapers? Did he go through the teething stage and spread SW-desitin all over his bum and get ticked off because the boy was crying and wailing when he was trying to get sleep because he had a HUGE contract to work on the next day? Did he have to go through those terrible two's and the defiant NO's?

If he did... I have a million TONS more respect for Jango. If he didn't and just got Taun We to do it all, well... he's not really a good parent then, is he?

[RollaFett]

Oh man, I can see a new EU book already, "Baby Boba Lessons with Jango Fett".

[Jedi Master Harrison]

:rofl:, I wonder why those scenes were dropped from the films? Can you imagine the effect it would have on those such as Flo & Rolla, seeing baby Boba having his nappy changed?! :laughing:

[RollaFett]

Oh my god, that would have been too much to deal with.