Should General Grevious Have Been A Reconstructed Darth Maul?

[Sluggo]

Among a bunch of friends of mine, there has been some talk of whether the prequels could have benefited if the disposable villian of General Grevious should have been a cyborg version of Darth Maul. So I thought I'd bring the discussion to a bit wider audience. Could Episode III been better if Darth Maul were back for revenge? I think a Darth Maul who was more machine now than man would have made for a cool parallel with another Sith apprentice.

Thoughts?

[Slick]

I think Grievous was just fine the way he was. I think it just would have confused people if a character who seemed very dead to come back as something completely different. Afterall, Grievous was ten times the bad-ass that Maul was in my opinion. But that's just me.

[Snake_Judge]

Ive got to dissagree also. Grievous is a very important charecter,Expesaly in the EU. He is a statigic Genious. My only qulm with him is that he was severely underpowered in the movie. He shuld have given Obi wan a much beter fight.

[Sarah-Leia]

I think it would have been interesting...although I don't really care about what goes on in the Prequels.

[Lord Tesla]

Among a bunch of friends of mine, there has been some talk of whether the prequels could have benefited if the disposable villian of General Grevious should have been a cyborg version of Darth Maul. So I thought I'd bring the discussion to a bit wider audience. Could Episode III been better if Darth Maul were back for revenge? I think a Darth Maul who was more machine now than man would have made for a cool parallel with another Sith apprentice.

Thoughts?

Should he have been Maul redivivus? No. The time for Maul to have made his return was in AOTC. And I would have liked to see it, personally.

As it was, I got some odd info before ROTS came out, and I had myself convinced General Grievous was actually Darth Grievous, a Sith who'd been in some kind of suspended animation since the greatly exaggerated Sith Extinction, waiting until the time was right, then revived and put in charge of the Sith war effort under Dooku.

I was somewhat disappointed when Grievous turned out to be an "ordinary" cyborg. I've never quite gotten over it.

[JediBendu]

Among a bunch of friends of mine, there has been some talk of whether the prequels could have benefited if the disposable villian of General Grevious should have been a cyborg version of Darth Maul. So I thought I'd bring the discussion to a bit wider audience. Could Episode III been better if Darth Maul were back for revenge? I think a Darth Maul who was more machine now than man would have made for a cool parallel with another Sith apprentice.

Thoughts?

it was done in Star Wars Tales I think

[Kapit]

It was actually Star Wars Visionaries, where the concept artists all did their own little comics. One of them was based off the above picture of Robo-Maul, and he was trying to find little Luke and get back in the good graces of Palpy. Obi-Wan literally popped out of the sand and kicked Mauls ass again. Tons of fun!

As to the actual topic...Grievous is fine how he is. Yeah, the coughing is annoying, but whatever. All the Sith apprentices are supposed to be disposable anyways. Why make a character more memorable than Vader?

[lovelucas]

I too liked the General - the stand-alone General. I liked the cough - I loved the story behind the cough. and Matt did a great job with the voice. And ILM did a fantastic job on the capes/robes cg - henchmen, too.

Maul was a tad short-waisted.
for me, dead is dead unless you're a Force ghost.



We all love Ray Park.

[Cassus Fett]

Among a bunch of friends of mine, there has been some talk of whether the prequels could have benefited if the disposable villian of General Grevious should have been a cyborg version of Darth Maul. So I thought I'd bring the discussion to a bit wider audience. Could Episode III been better if Darth Maul were back for revenge? I think a Darth Maul who was more machine now than man would have made for a cool parallel with another Sith apprentice.

Thoughts?

No

[Orandhite]

I think Grievous had a much better story than Maul ever did. Maul didn't get any chance to be evil at all and was written as a poor bad guy.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Personally, I think it's an intriguing idea - but just that, an idea, a twist on what we all know and love. Had that been the way it had originally been written, then the responses may have been that it was great. I wouldn't change Grevious, but as I thought Maul got nowhere near enough screentime, this alternative does interest me.

[Sargoth]

The concept of "dead fan-favorite character returns to life" has been overused in the fantasy sci-fi and horror genres to the point of near absurdity. I recall an interview with Lucas after TPM where he said that the reason he showed Maul severed in two was to quell any speculation that he would ever come back to life.

Maul was a great (but somewhat underdeveloped) character. He died. Dead is where he needs to stay.

[Darth Nameless]

grievous was a better story anyway...and while it makes for a good star wars infinitys book...doesnt make much sence in the real SWU

[Rabid Whiphid]

I am always perplexed at the wishes among some fans that Darth Maul was "brought back" in some way after Episode 1. If you do that, it turns Star Wars into the third Pirates of the Carribean movie - where "dramatic death scenes" are constantly being undermined by the "dead" characters coming back to life. Which naturally kills drama because the audience no longer has to worry about anybody in the movie getting hurt for real. Not to mention, you bring back Darth Maul in Ep.2 or 3, and you sap all the meaning out of Obi-Wan's victory. Obi Wan IS the guy we're supposed to be rooting for, remember. Bringing characters back from the dead tells the audience that the storyteller is not really playing for keeps, there are no real stakes in the conflict, no real danger. Who wants that??

As an afterthought - I don't find the Jedi ghosts to be problematic in this way because after Jedis die, they only appear as ghosts briefly and do not participate directly in the action. So other than them - and I suppose robots which can be realistically rebuilt - I say, when characters die they need to stay dead!!

[Darth Nameless]

amen!!!!!!!!!!!! :rockon:

[Raganork8]

Logically


Why would Palpatine bring back a Sith who was killed by a Jedi Padawan; who is now a master?


Defeat seems inevitable at this point.

If maul couldn'tbeat Padawan Obi; why would he be able to be master Obi and Knight Anakin?

[Rabid Whiphid]

Logically
Why would Palpatine bring back a Sith who was killed by a Jedi Padawan; who is now a master?
Defeat seems inevitable at this point.
If maul couldn'tbeat Padawan Obi; why would he be able to be master Obi and Knight Anakin?


Another damn good point in the argument against Maul being "brought back". Exactly, you hit the nail on the head, Raganork... Knowing Palpatine's attitude, it would be totally in character for him to lose all respect for Darth Maul after Maul's defeat at the hands of an apprentice Jedi. And to consider Maul worthless to him beyond that point. As for Maul's defeating Qui-Gon, the judegemental Palpatine would undoubtedly dismiss that as Maul getting in a lucky shot.

Also - here's another good reason why Palpatine would not be interested in bringing Maul back... Palpatine knows that his only chance of success is to stay in the shadows, operating in secret. Bringing back a sith lord that the Jedi are already aware of, and know they can beat, would lessen the Sith in the minds of the Jedi. It would make the Sith seem weaker to them. That's no way to conduct the psychological aspects of warfare.

In the end, the more you consider all these points, the more obvious it becomes that bringing back Darth Maul after Ep.1 makes no logistical sense. It's just something desired by mushy fans who think Darth Maul looks way cool, and who love their Darth Maul action figures, and want to see more of that cool looking guy on screen... but who apparently have little understanding of how stories work.

And talk about Prequel Bashing... I suspect that if Darth Maul had been brought back, we never would have heard the end of how little sense it made... especially during the heat of that 1999-2005 era of post Phantom Menace, pre Revenge of the Sith, never-ending Star Wars criticism...

[Raganork8]

Another reason is that they'd have to clone Maul to bring him back...

Since Kamino is in the control of the Republic; it would be narrow as to who cloned him.

Here's another reason...

The ultimate goal was to Convert Anakin; how silly would it have been to use the same person who killed the man who had so much faith in him?

Anakin's hatred for the sith would be more great using Dooku; though, thats different; he's an ambiguous Sith; he's a sith; but, he's independent as well.

He doesn't personify the Sith; so he easily separated from Palaptine. In fact when you watch the movies; do you ever feel Dooku is an apprentice and Palpatine is the master?

Probably

If you use Maul it would feel more...Sithy so to speak; and if it feels too Sithy the blurred lines of right and wrong become more clear and it, in turn, could jeopardize Anakin's temptation

[JediBendu]

The concept of "dead fan-favorite character returns to life" has been overused in the fantasy sci-fi and horror genres to the point of near absurdity. I recall an interview with Lucas after TPM where he said that the reason he showed Maul severed in two was to quell any speculation that he would ever come back to life.

Maul was a great (but somewhat underdeveloped) character. He died. Dead is where he needs to stay.

would you say the same thing about Boba Fett?

his triumphant return from the bowels of the sarlacc was well received - even GL has questioned whether he should have killed the character off so ignominiously

[Sargoth]

would you say the same thing about Boba Fett?

his triumphant return from the bowels of the sarlacc was well received - even GL has questioned whether he should have killed the character off so ignominiously

Fett was considered a minor character when RoTJ came out. Hella cool, but minor nonetheless. It wasn't until the films became available on VHS, and were on steady HBO rotation that "The Cult of Fett" was born. It was the fans - and a decade later, the authors of the AU - who raised the character to a pop culture icon, not Lucas.

[Dark Helmet]

Maul was a tad short-waisted.
for me, dead is dead unless you're a Force ghost.

or if you're goku. A robo-maul wouldve been pretty cool, but then people would be all over george about being lazy and recycling old characters and stuff.

[Raganork8]

or if you're goku. A robo-maul wouldve been pretty cool, but then people would be all over george about being lazy and recycling old characters and stuff.

A Robo-Maul would not have been cool; for that much watch Episode I again.


As I said before; it wouldn't make sense to bring Maul back; he was beaten by a padawan Obi Wan Kenobi; General Grevious was a great choice just not executed in the best way

[Sargoth]

A robo-maul wouldve been pretty cool


If by "cool", you mean "sucks donkey", then sure. ;)

[Raganork8]

How can you reconstruct a dead person anyway?

what logic would that have had; I know it's star wars but death is death.

Thats like saying; should Dooku Have come back as the headless Jedi horseman

[Darth Nameless]

well the palpy was brought back...so its not like it hasnt happened lol

[RollaFett]

^ When, in the EU? Remember, my friend, we're talking films here.

[Darth Nameless]

good point...my bad

[Rabid Whiphid]

Fett was considered a minor character when RoTJ came out. Hella cool, but minor nonetheless. It wasn't until the films became available on VHS, and were on steady HBO rotation that "The Cult of Fett" was born. It was the fans - and a decade later, the authors of the AU - who raised the character to a pop culture icon, not Lucas.


I disagree that the "Cult of Fett" (great name for it by the way) was started when the films were made available on video tape and cable TV pay movie channels. Although I do think those outlets certainly did encourage Fett fandom.

As a first generation Star Wars fan I can tell you that, at least among my group of friends, who were all kids when the original SW trilogy was released, the "Cult of Fett" was started by the toys. I explained my reasons why in a previous post, which you can read here, if it interests you:

http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=735205#post735205


Okay, sorry, I know that was off topic.


-

[Sargoth]

I disagree that the "Cult of Fett" (great name for it by the way) was started when the films were made available on video tape and cable TV pay movie channels. Although I do think those outlets certainly did encourage Fett fandom.

As a first generation Star Wars fan I can tell you that, at least among my group of friends, who were all kids when the original SW trilogy was released, the "Cult of Fett" was started by the toys. I explained my reasons why in a previous post, which you can read here, if it interests you:

-


OT, I know. Yes, I was there too in the Christmas of '79 where x number of Star wars Proofs of Purchase would get you a "Boba Fett with rocket launching backpack!!!" Also, the first "must have" toy from the 1st ESB run was the 12" Boba Fett. To our dismay, the character that Lucas hyped up soooooo much for ESB.... really didn't do anything. His great fight scene involved taking a shot at Luke (and missing). But mostly, he just stood there and looked cool. And yeah, us 9 year olds were a little bummed by his indignant end in ROTJ- but hey, we got to see him use his rocket pack and grappling hook!

My point is, that the true "mythology" of the character wasn't built until the EU material came out through the later 80's and 90's. Comic books, novels, video games all made use of the character and his mysterious backstory. So when the VHS generation was first exposed to the films, they probably had more investment in the character than we had from '80-'83.

You may argue that his death was shortsighted on Lucas' part, but any latent disappointment I carried for 20 years was wiped away when AOTC came out. The fight between Jango and Obi-Wan was a Fett Fanboi's wet dream!

Back on topic:

Maul was cut in half.

He's Dead.

He needs to stay Dead.

Robo-Maul would be stoopid.

[Rabid Whiphid]

Sargoth...

I get what your saying. I felt much the same way about the Jango/Obi-Wan fight in Ep. 2 as well as the Jango / Mace encounter at the end of Ep. 2.

Only thing you said that I disagree with is the thing about " the character that Lucas hyped up soooooo much for ESB..."

It doesn't seem to me that Lucas hyped Boba Fett for ESB at all. I think it was Kenner toys that latched onto the character and decided to have their 1979 marketing campaign practicaly revolve around Boba, which got all us kids excited. The resulting excitement seems to have caught Lucas totally off-guard.

Furthermore, I never believed Boba died in ROTJ. Although I'm not an EU fan, the one bit of EU info I accept was the issue of the Star Wars comic book that came out right after ROTJ... in which Boba is shown escaping the Sarlacc. But that's neither here nor there.

The most important thing I wanted to say was that it would be stupid to bring Darth Maul back after Ep.1. :laughing:

[erikstormtrooper]

It doesn't seem to me that Lucas hyped Boba Fett for ESB at all.

I beg to differ. Around the time of ESB's release in 1980, they had Vader making mall appearances in cities around the country. I've seen photos where he was accompanied by Fett. That certainly seems like hyping to me. And I doubt Hasbro decided who would went on promotional tours.

[Sluggo]

And the details and prototyping of Fett's costume is staggering. Few other characters had such attention to their development.

[Rabid Whiphid]

I beg to differ. Around the time of ESB's release in 1980, they had Vader making mall appearances in cities around the country. I've seen photos where he was accompanied by Fett. That certainly seems like hyping to me. And I doubt Hasbro decided who would went on promotional tours.


Everybody begs to differ. That's the nature of fan forums. Everybody is an expert who knows more than everybody else! :laughing:

[Raganork8]

Perhaps someone should start a thread on whether Boba was over hyped or not; for the sake of not getting off topic anymore.


Grevious should have been Grevious from the Clone Wars cartoon if anything.

[RollaFett]

Perhaps someone should start a thread on whether Boba was over hyped or not; for the sake of not getting off topic anymore.


New thread opened! http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=964574#post964574

[Sargoth]

And I doubt Hasbro decided who would went on promotional tours.


Pedantic Nitpick: Hasbro didn't buy out Kenner until 1990.

[RollaFett]

Now THAT is a nitpick! LOL!

[Fish1941]

Among a bunch of friends of mine, there has been some talk of whether the prequels could have benefited if the disposable villian of General Grevious should have been a cyborg version of Darth Maul. So I thought I'd bring the discussion to a bit wider audience. Could Episode III been better if Darth Maul were back for revenge? I think a Darth Maul who was more machine now than man would have made for a cool parallel with another Sith apprentice.

Thoughts?

What the hell for? Darth Maul had served his purpose in TPM. He wasn't needed in future movies.

[RollaFett]

Please, don't hide your feelings. Tell us how you really feel.

[Raganork8]

Another reason

bringing back Maul means bringing back a sith Lord...we already had Dooku

Dooku and Maul would be at odds with one another; this wouldn't help Palpatine's plans AT ALL

As much as some of you love maul; I'm sorry to tell you tat Count Dooku was FAR more important than Maul.

The Entire C.I.S. was the product of Dooku and without them; Palpatine's plans would have failed.

[Plo Koon]

I don't remember where I heard this but apparently Greivous was actually a reconstructed Syfo-Dias. At least they used him for the blood transfusion

[RollaFett]

Hmmm...that's the first time I ever heard that. There certainly is no mention of it in the databank: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/generalgrievous/

[Plo Koon]

Ok so not a full reconstruction, but he is used for Greivous's blood transfusion in the novel Labyrinth of Evil. Most of you guys probably consider the EU irrelivant to the movies, but that one tells Syfo-Dias's back story that GL promised to tell in Ep. III but didn't.

It would make a bit more sense if Greivous was a reconstruction of either Syfo-Dias or Qui-Gon.

[borgmatrix]

Ok so not a full reconstruction, but he is used for Greivous's blood transfusion in the novel Labyrinth of Evil. Most of you guys probably consider the EU irrelivant to the movies, but that one tells Syfo-Dias's back story that GL promised to tell in Ep. III but didn't.
I read the novel and don't recall that detail. Do you own the book? If so, could you perhaps post/quote the relevant passage? Because that seems extremely odd to me.

[Tovor]

I read the novel and don't recall that detail. Do you own the book? If so, could you perhaps post/quote the relevant passage? Because that seems extremely odd to me.
I read it too, and I certainly do not remember any such disclosures.

Plo Koon, page # please?

[Plo Koon]

Don't remember exact page numbers but I found this excerpt

One of your former confidants in the Jedi Temple has percieved the
coming change", Sidious had told him (Dooku). "This one has contacted a group of cloners, regarding the creation of an army for the Republic. The order for the army can stand, for we will be able to make use of
that army someday. But Master Sifo-Dyas cannot stand, for the Jedi
cannot learn about the army until we are prepared to have them learn of
it.

[borgmatrix]

I read it too, and I certainly do not remember any such disclosures.
I looked it up on wikipedia, and apparantly the notion of Sifo's blood being used for Grievous' transfusion is not from Labyrinth of Evil, but from something called Star Wars: Visionaries. Not really familiar with that or sure how it fits into the EU or canon.

[Darth Nameless]

well grevious is a cyborg...plan and simple...that is stated in the book...he recalled him being a warrior on the world of Kalee during the Huk War...chapter 18 page 110

[Plo Koon]

I looked it up on wikipedia, and apparantly the notion of Sifo's blood being used for Grievous' transfusion is not from Labyrinth of Evil, but from something called Star Wars: Visionaries. Not really familiar with that or sure how it fits into the EU or canon.

Forgive me. I was mistaken.

[borgmatrix]

Forgive me. I was mistaken.
Oh, its not a problem. I was just a bit confused. Now, I'm wondering how Visionaries fits into everything. There are different levels of canon with EU, right? So I'm wondering how much stock to put into that detail about Grievous and Sifo-Dyas.