AotC: Not Looking So Good Anymore [Archive]

Jedi Master Harrison

12-22-2007, 12:33 PM

Raganork8

12-29-2007, 08:57 PM

With AOTC

Empire and ROTS wouldn't have been as good.

Master Magnus

12-30-2007, 06:08 AM

I watched AotC after TPM, and I must say that it was weak. I don't know how Natalie Portman could turn in such an atrocious performance. I know she wasn't brilliant in TPM, but she just phoned it in all the way through. Also, the fact that the film was shot in digital video, and not on film gave it a cartoony look. The only saving grace for AotC is the last ten minutes.

I never thought I would say this, but TPM is a decent film; AotC on the other, is a sloppy love/mystery/space opera that can't decide what it wants to be. Skip the entire movie up to the arena scene; that's AotC's only reason for existing.

To sum it up: AotC is the weak link of the saga.
TPM is by far the weakest movie in the Star Wars saga IMHO. George Lucas made some really poor creative decisions: From the silly voices of most of the alien species (from the Neimodians, Gungans and Watto) to infantile fart jokes. The Pod Race, while beautifully done, is tedious and predictable.
AOTC, on the other hand, is scripted extremely well, it builds up suspense (the masterful "Chase through Coruscant" sequence and the club sequence which is one of the best written and filmed scenes in the Saga). The scenes on Kamino are beautifully done with one of the best CG creatures ever created (the Kaminoans of course who don't have a silly dialect). The last forty minutes are among the best created for Star Wars. The only scenes which would need a little more work are the Naboo scenes (my ideas on that here (http://galacticsenate.com/showpost.php?p=926898&postcount=164)).
However, I must stress that I don't think that TPM is a bad movie, but that it's marred by some poor creative decisions which makes it the weakest in the Saga.

Cloud

12-30-2007, 11:37 AM

TPM is by far the weakest movie in the Star Wars saga IMHO. George Lucas made some really poor creative decisions: From the silly voices of most of the alien species (from the Neimodians, Gungans and Watto) to infantile fart jokes. The Pod Race, while beautifully done, is tedious and predictable.
AOTC, on the other hand, is scripted extremely well, it builds up suspense (the masterful "Chase through Coruscant" sequence and the club sequence which is one of the best written and filmed scenes in the Saga). The scenes on Kamino are beautifully done with one of the best CG creatures ever created (the Kaminoans of course who don't have a silly dialect). The last forty minutes are among the best created for Star Wars. The only scenes which would need a little more work are the Naboo scenes (my ideas on that here (http://galacticsenate.com/showpost.php?p=926898&postcount=164)).
However, I must stress that I don't think that TPM is a bad movie, but that it's marred by some poor creative decisions which makes it the weakest in the Saga.

I thought TPM was extremely good, to be honest. It kept me on the edge of my seat with excitement in the theater, and people actually stood up and cheered when it was over. However, AotC bored the crap out of me, and there was a lot of murmuring and chatting throughout the movie. I don't think it was an overall *bad* movie, but I didn't care for the acting done by Hayden Christiansen. Anyway, apparently depending on who you are, you either loved him or hated him in AotC. I fall into the latter category.

My Science Fiction teacher in high school actually said she fell asleep during AotC, and I can honestly see that. There were a few really good parts (the Yoda scene being my favorite, haha), but Hayden's acting, especially with Anakin's love role with Padme, felt entirely too forced and generic and really killed the movie for me. It seemed superficial and hardly believable. He smiled at the wrong times, and he made some really strange pauses during some scenes such as his spiel after his attempt to rescue his mother.

Either way, I loved the entire saga as a whole. I wish some of the books that take place in the future (New Jedi Order etc.) could come out on film. I don't want Star Wars to end here.

Darth Nameless

12-30-2007, 01:03 PM

all the movies have a weak point to them...but each one is essencial to the story...some of the boring parts like anakin trying to tell padme he loved her...i fell asleep also...but it was important to the story...it defined who anakin was in the film

Talcy

12-30-2007, 01:10 PM

Javen

12-30-2007, 11:12 PM

I agree Talcy. I really like aotc alot, but the droid factory scene was just dumb.

Darth Nameless

12-31-2007, 01:27 AM

like i said...some lame spots but overall a good flick

Darth Nameless

01-01-2008, 03:10 AM

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!:cheers:

P-Ray

01-01-2008, 02:23 PM

In your opinion, my friend

I love it...
I love it as well!

Jedi Master Harrison

01-01-2008, 02:26 PM

I third that! There are small things that could have been made better, that have been discussed at length in other threads, but overall it's a great film - I mean, c'mon it's Star Wars! :w00t: :superhappy:

P-Ray

01-01-2008, 02:29 PM

For me, get rid of that episode of Droids I hadn't seen before and the film would be better. The whole thing with Threepio in the factory and the swapping of heads is one of the single worst things in all six films. Terrible idea, terribly executed. Some of the worst CG in the prequels. And that bloody meadow bit, with Anakin on top of that giant tick and Padme doing her Sound of Music bit. Bleurgh.
The reason that I like the factory scene is simply just to show the droids being made. It also adds a little action. At that point, it needed something to happen, IMO!

The meadow scene bit was corny but I loved part where they are discussing Dictatorship vs. Democracy. I thought that it was a very intregal scene.:wink:

Mothman

01-02-2008, 03:23 PM

For me, get rid of that episode of Droids I hadn't seen before and the film would be better. The whole thing with Threepio in the factory and the swapping of heads is one of the single worst things in all six films. Terrible idea, terribly executed. Some of the worst CG in the prequels. And that bloody meadow bit, with Anakin on top of that giant tick and Padme doing her Sound of Music bit. Bleurgh.

If I remember right from commentaries or someplace, I think that it was Rick McCallum who suggested the whole droid factory deal.

:bye:

Darill Cyllem

01-02-2008, 03:47 PM

I don't mind the droid factory scene as a whole, but i think the focus should have stayed on Padme and Anakin and Artoo and Threepio should have, i don't know... stayed on Padme's ship or something.
Also, i find that i enjoy AOTC on DVD much more than i did in the theaters, as i can skip the Anakin-Padme scenes. Yes, they are important for plot development, but they also activate my gag reflex. Talcy's description was spot on for me :barf:

RollaFett

01-02-2008, 04:15 PM

The droid factory scene was just ok for me. It falls short of being a cool sequence due to 3PO's prescence. He looked absolutely horrible (and I seldom have a problem with ILM's work) in many of those scenes, and was flat out annoying the rest of the time.
And I don't care whose idea it was, because in the end, it's Lucas's deciscion and it's obvious that he liked the idea of having a scene with some comic relief, even if it's as bad as 3PO's head being on a battle droid. Ugh.

JediBendu

01-04-2008, 05:53 AM

it's Lucas's deciscion and it's obvious that he liked the idea of having a scene with some comic relief, .

or he liked the obvious computer game tie in :p

lovelucas

01-04-2008, 09:52 AM

P-Ray

01-04-2008, 11:42 AM

P-Ray

01-04-2008, 11:44 AM

And also are you guys aware of the scathing (what else is new?) beating George is taking from the critics who have not seen, of course, Indy 4? Everything he says, every word purported to come from his mouth is assessed in a negative fashion. Everything. I’ve read interviews and statements within the context and they refute those assessments totally. George is hated in the industry. Must he be here too?
It's just jealousy, IMO!

And the fact that he doesn't align himself with the industry.

sjmdesigns

01-04-2008, 01:24 PM

George is hated in the industry. Must he be here too?

(First Actual Post for me)

GL is hated because he's been able to control SW from the get go. He also seems to be UN-hollywood when it comes to making movies. He likes to have the control himself. SW is REALLY his world, not ours. He's made that clear to everyone. I would think the media doesn't like that.

Not that I want to be morbid or anything, but when GL becomes one with the force I wonder if his Kids will keep that tradition or sell the rights to SW to a movie company.

My Two Cents :)

Raganork8

01-04-2008, 01:27 PM

this is off topic; but Lucas is amazing.

I say that cause of what Lovelucas said.

I don't think we hate Lucas, just get a little mad at him; when Star wars doesn't go our way.

But thats part of a bigger plan, he's made it so that we feel this story is a little bit of ours. We want the best out of our shared Child (so to speak) that's amazing that we can be this critical but in the most caring benign way over a film

lovelucas

01-04-2008, 02:28 PM

Thanks everyone for positive vibes. I was on a Hollywood reviewer's site last night and the condemnation of Lucas is searing, painful and by intelligent writers who still know nothing about Star Wars...they don't know the characters, the intentions and they do damage to the names Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan Kenobi (have no idea of the spellings or the relationship) - then we have the quasi-professionals who blog their hatred of George. Unfortunately if you google/yahoo George's name, or Star Wars, or Indy 4 you will also pull up their, "assessments" along with bogus stats that indicate everyone agrees with them....these are the same peeps that condemned Steven and George even attempting discussion of an Indy 4....that everyone was too old and lacked imagination etc etc. and when George mentions that it will be an uphill struggle for an Indy 4 box office bonanza or positive critical reception due to so many seemingling condemning, sight unseen - he is labled as a pessimistic "whiner".
This town does not want him to win . - - -
I will always wish that for him.

P-Ray

01-04-2008, 02:40 PM

But thats part of a bigger plan, he's made it so that we feel this story is a little bit of ours. We want the best out of our shared Child (so to speak) that's amazing that we can be this critical but in the most caring benign way over a film
This is what I was going to say!

I think so many people love SW so much, they really take it as 'their' story. That's not a bad thing, it's just that sometimes it's taken a little personal and people feel like they have a say so when really they don't.

Cloud

01-05-2008, 12:10 PM

Would be swell, would be great if we could all remember that George has repeatedly said (and no, there is no need to try to opine that when he wrote the OT his intentions were any different) these films are for kids, with the exception of the necessarily more intense PG-13 rated RotS.

And also are you guys aware of the scathing (what else is new?) beating George is taking from the critics who have not seen, of course, Indy 4? Everything he says, every word purported to come from his mouth is assessed in a negative fashion. Everything. I’ve read interviews and statements within the context and they refute those assessments totally. George is hated in the industry. Must he be here too?

I don't think anyone on this entire forum hates George. However, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having opinions on his movies. [cliché]You know what they say about opinions - Everybody has one.[/cliché] Seriously, though, don't take things so harshly. :P I loved all of the Star Wars movies. There were parts on AotC that I think could be massively improved on (acting in particular), but that doesn't mean I hated it. I wasn't particularly fond of some parts of RotS for the same reason, but it still painted the overall picture for the movies we all know and love so well.

:grouphug:

Raganork8

01-05-2008, 12:32 PM

This is what I was going to say!

I think so many people love SW so much, they really take it as 'their' story. That's not a bad thing, it's just that sometimes it's taken a little personal and people feel like they have a say so when really they don't.

we're all one big happy SW family :grouphug:

P-Ray

01-06-2008, 01:32 AM

we're all one big happy SW family :grouphug:
Happy!? Have you heard some of the SW whiners and complainers?:wink::nahnah:

JediBendu

01-09-2008, 05:43 AM

RollaFett

01-15-2008, 03:58 PM

^ Yeah, the 'rape' comments never sat well with me either.
I do understand their frustration, however, but would never take it to such extremes.

JediDad

01-19-2008, 03:32 AM

I didn't read through all the posts, so if I repeat something someone else has said...oh well.

It's interesting how serious some folks take these movies. I will admit that I greatly prefer the original trilogy to the prequels, although I was jazzed when each new movie came out. Did I like the OT more because I was a kid back then (9 years old in 1977) Did I like the PT less because I wasn't a kid anymore? Probably so...

The Phantom Menace remains the only Star Wars movie that I like less every time I see it. There are moments, I would argue that the Kenobi-Maul saber duel was better than Kenobi-Vader I in episode III, the latter being so frenetic, that it was hard to tell what was going on..it was just too much.

Too much is a theme I would ascribe to all three Prequels. Too much podrace...did we REALLY need three laps? Too many annoying aliens (Jar-Jar, the Nemoidians, etc) Even Lucas admits to using "hamburger helper" to stretch his prequel outline into three movies.

Of course, this thread is about Attack of the Clones, which I really should watch again before writing about. I do remember liking the IMAX version better than the theatrical release...not only was it freaking huge, but they had to cut about 40 min out of the movie, and that really tightened things up a bit. I remember being glad to see that the "frolic in the meadow" had been cut...

AOTC was better than TPM, but not as good as ROTS, and it had the single worst line of the trilogy. I don't have it memorized, but it was when Anakin and Padme were at Lake Como (?) in Italy....but it was supposed to be Naboo. Anyway, Padme talks about swimming out to an island and then letting the sun dry her on the sand...and Anakin says something like "I don't like sand, it's rough and irritating and gets everywhere...not....smooth..." as he strokes her arm..or something.

I remember cringing in the theater...

Still fun though, I still have it on DVD with the rest of the series...good or bad, it's still Star Wars...and I will always give it the benefit of the doubt...

Kam Solusar

01-19-2008, 12:18 PM

I would argue that the Kenobi-Maul saber duel was better than Kenobi-Vader I in episode III, the latter being so frenetic, that it was hard to tell what was going on..it was just too much.

This is tangential, and I apologize, but I would argue that they are equally frenetic, but that Kenobi-Vader suffers from them having the same color blade.

RollaFett

01-21-2008, 01:19 PM

^ I agree with JediDad. The ROTS duel was waaayyy more frenetic, and shot curiously as well. With Maul/OB1, there were plenty of wideshots so you could actually see what the hell was happening, plus it was slightly slower paced. Not slow like Vader/OB1 from ANH, of course, but slow enough to see what was happening an really appreciate the physicality of it all.
In ROTS, with everything being so damned fast, and half the shots being closeups, you never really can wrap your head around what is happening. I thought that the first time I saw, and still feel this way. IMO, the best lightsaber duel was from TPM.
Of course, now, we're all way off topic as AOTC isn't even being mentioned.

DblDwn

01-21-2008, 08:12 PM

Raganork8

01-22-2008, 05:23 PM

In order to get back on topic, and with the discussion being about fast paced and blurred lightsaber duels, what about Yoda/Dooku in Clones? It's great to see Yoda in a saber duel but he almost moves around way too fast to keep up with. Sometimes CGI can be a hindrance.

My opinion is still that Obi-Wan/Anakin from Sith is the most enjoyable with Obi-Wan,Qui-Gon/Maul being second best.

Technically in terms of the movements and the skill

I have to go with Dooku Vs. Anakin Obi Wan in ROTS; Dooku's moves are so clear and flawless its amazing.

I don't know the Obi Vs. Ani fight never quite did it for me...

so Maul Vs. Obi would win out in my opinion.

Orandhite

01-23-2008, 11:56 AM

Again, completely :offtopic: but the Vader/Luke duel in ROTJ is the best IMO.

PT it has to be the whole scene with Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Maul. Ray Park did a great job with his acrobatic and athletic performance and Ewan McGregor was pretty sweet when he gets through the blast doors and unleashes on Maul.

But back on topic - there are plenty of bits in AOTC that I thought did not look too good. ;)

Raganork8

01-23-2008, 12:01 PM

lovelucas

01-23-2008, 01:19 PM

SO....all you guys are complaining about the speed of the RotS duel when Ewan and Hayden practiced for months to get up to that speed - the fastest, most intense duel of the entire saga. Nick and both of them worked so hard to make it so good.

and you guys don't like the very thing they worked so hard to perfect - the speed.

RollaFett

01-23-2008, 01:36 PM

Uhhhh...yup, that seems to sum it up pretty well, thanks. ;)

Time to get back on topic, though, as I open a new thread for this specific issue.

Jedi Master Harrison

01-23-2008, 01:56 PM

I'm with LL on this one, they did great! But anyway, AOTC still looks damn good to me, no matter how many times I watch it. Yes, there will always be things that as individuals with different tastes, but c'mon, this is SW! Seeing AOTC at the cinema was what really got me interested in SW again.

Raganork8

01-23-2008, 02:58 PM

It's a fine movie; they did what it was supposed to do

Establish a turning point in the series for the characters; and had it not been there ROTS would have made little to no sense.

Darth Nameless

01-24-2008, 02:36 AM

very good point...this film ties the films together

Orandhite

01-24-2008, 06:32 AM

And more than makes up for the runt of the Star Wars movie litter - TPM.

lovelucas

01-25-2008, 08:53 AM

from the runt of the litter novel:

Qui-Gon, surprised by the other's quickness and ferocity, barely blocked the blow with his own weapon.......The attacker spun away in a whirl of dark clothing, then attacked anew, lightsaber slashing at his intended prey, face alight with a killing frenzy that promised no quarter.
His attacker closed with him again, forcing him back, striking at him from every angle. Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger that Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly.

In Star Wars there are no runts.

Raganork8

01-25-2008, 09:40 AM

True; but. in terms of the films there has to be one thats lesser than the others.

I'm not saying it's TPM; I'd be killed here if I told you what my least favorite episode was.

Orandhite

01-25-2008, 09:47 AM

^ That's what I meant. I think that TPM is the weakest movie, but it has some brilliant bits in it. The setup of the Palpatine/Sidious manipulation, the lightsaber duel, and some amazing music from JW.

Raganork8

01-25-2008, 09:50 AM

I agree; with Palpatine; when he showed up there was somewhat of a chill down my back. I knew this guy couldn't be trusted.

However; the long beginning; the even longer middle (that long pod race) and the jumping from Coruscant to Naboo; was just a little time consuming. It was a good movie; but, it might have been able to get to the point a little faster.

Anakin's theme is just SHOCKINGLY genius

Duel Of Fates really brings you back into the series.

But honestly I think in terms of soundtracks it IS the runt... along with another soundtrack which ties as the runt movie as well.

borgmatrix

01-30-2008, 04:43 PM

It was a good movie; but, it might have been able to get to the point a little faster.
Like I said in some thread, I think it would have been better to combine the TPM/AOTC stories for episode I. Use the major TPM plot points for the first half of the movie, then jump forward in time to hit the major AOTC stuff for the second half. And then continue with some of those themes in an episode II Clone Wars movie, while beginning some of the ROTS material. That would have given epIII more of a chance to breathe, too.

Getting to the topic of this thread, though, I have no problem with AOTC. I haven't seen it recently, but thinking on it, there's so much there that still stands out to me (in a good way :)). Loved the sequences midway through when we see Anakin set out in search of Shmi, the beginnings of the Tusken slaughter/Yoda's reaction to it, and Anakin's admission to Padme afterward. Great, great stuff.

Also loved Obi-wan's tracking of Fett and the entire set of scenes on Kamino, especially Kenobi being "expected", his first viewing of the clone army, his initial confrontation with Jango, and then, of course, the great, physical fight outside in the rain.

And the last 40 minutes or so with our three protaganists fighting for survival in the arena, the Jedi army arriving to battle the driods, the entry of the clones into the skirmish and the ensuing fight outside the arena, and the saber duels against Tyranus was beyond cool.

There's no way I could look at the movie and say "not looking so good anymore." I still love it.

Raganork8

01-30-2008, 06:17 PM

Like I said in some thread, I think it would have been better to combine the TPM/AOTC stories for episode I. Use the major TPM plot points for the first half of the movie, then jump forward in time to hit the major AOTC stuff for the second half. And then continue with some of those themes in an episode II Clone Wars movie, while beginning some of the ROTS material. That would have given epIII more of a chance to breathe, too.

For the most part I agree; TPM could have used a little of AOTC to make it pack more of a wallop.

Here I go I know a lot of people will disagree; but, I think Darth Maul was cool; but essentially without a point; Count Dooku's Compelling story with the Jedi council could have been used a little bit more; Killing Qui Gon; didn't NEED Darth Maul; it was good; but I felt Dooku provided more of a plot catalyst; I'm not sure how i would appease the problem; but, it's possible.

However I'm conflicted; I LIKE where AOTC ends; i like the fact that there's pending doom on the horizon; and that we don't swell to deep into the clone wars; a lot of people want to know exactly what happened; Personally I did not I like the mysteriousness of it. So if TPM and AOTC were combined; I don't know what I would do with ROTS

borgmatrix

01-30-2008, 07:04 PM

didn't NEED Darth Maul; it was good; but I felt Dooku provided more of a plot catalyst; I'm not sure how i would appease the problem; but, it's possible.
Well if TPM and AOTC were kinda of combined for epI, then Maul could be featured in the first half and killed by the midway point and then as we begin the second half years later with Anakin in his late teens, introduce Dooku. So now he's introduced in epI and there's more time to build and develop his story.

However I'm conflicted; I LIKE where AOTC ends; i like the fact that there's pending doom on the horizon; and that we don't swell to deep into the clone wars; a lot of people want to know exactly what happened; Personally I did not I like the mysteriousness of it. So if TPM and AOTC were combined; I don't know what I would do with ROTS
Well, when I suggest a clone wars episode II, its not with the intent that everything about the war be shown. Obviously, even with a movie, you can't show everything. Rather, it'd be an opportunity to give Anakin and Obi-wan significant time together (thereby heightening their rift in epIII and avoiding the feeling of their time together in the opening 20 minutes being too late). It would also allow some of the plot points from ROTS to be introduced: the Anakin/Palpatine friendship more conspicuous, outright distrust from the Jedi over Palpatine's extended office term, their narrowing of the Sith Lord to Palpatine's inner circle, Padme and others working on their petition to convince the Chancellor to give up his power, introduction of Grievous.

So then, when you get to epIII, it doesn't have to be so cluttered and overloaded. Padme's arc wouldn't have to be cut out and would be continued from epII. There'd be more time to better develop other areas. I think the whole trilogy would have come across much, much better and just flowed better overall.

AOTC would have benefitted the most, simply because its the middle chapter and would have received a lot of this added content.

Raganork8

01-30-2008, 07:15 PM

Oh i agree 100% i was just showing flaws in my own idea.

lovelucas

02-13-2008, 05:48 PM

Ok - not everyone is this anal (me). But Gigliola who was on the set during filming at Lake Como (she was my guide too) gave me the details of the timing today in an email from Italy:
8/28/00 - Monday - arrival and set up
8/29/00 - Tuesday plate photography and Natalie takes a swim/develops severe earaches/ becomes quite ill.
8/30/00 -Wednesday-total washout/pouring rain-Natalie very sick.
8/31/00 - Thursday - raining in the a.m. - 1st thing shot = departure from Naboo / gondola (cut scene) 2nd then to the Villa - where the awakening from the nightmare scene is shot - 3rd - it is now becoming sunny and the wedding scene is shot - and - I kid you not, a rainbow appears during the shoot.
9/01/00 - Friday - the "I hate sand" scene filmed in the late morning. - at 3:00 - arrival of gondola to the villa with Anakin assisting Padmé out of the gondola. -at 4:00 the scene of Anakin walking/talking to Padmé's father is shot - this is observed by Padmé and her sister from inside a window of the dining room (and their reaction was shot in Sydney, a world away). and finally - Inside Padmé's bedroom.
9/02/00 -Saturday - the picnic/meadow scene - and these are Gigliola's words:
the picnic scene was the last one to be filmed here, on saturday 2nd
sept: they finished at 4.30 p.m. and Mr. Lucas ' helper announced in
italian "Abbiamo finito!" (we're finished!).
Obsessed, who me? and Attack of the Clones will always look good to me.

JediBendu

02-29-2008, 12:09 PM

Ok - not everyone is this anal (me). But Gigliola who was on the set during filming at Lake Como (she was my guide too) gave me the details of the timing today in an email from Italy:

Do you know her or were there travelling?

lovelucas

02-29-2008, 01:59 PM

I emailed her initially back in 2003 and when the trip was finally a reality I contacted her again in 2005 - I have kept in touch with her, but only know her from that correspondence and my visit to the villa. I do want to emphasize that she donates the money she earns as a guide to the preservation of the site. She doesn't pocket anything. She really cares about Star Wars, Lake Como and the villa, and she is so genuine about sharing the adventure of being present during the filming of AotC. She is a true fan.

I will return...

and next month you can see a pictorial article of my visit in The Aficionado, a British online Star Wars publication. Scott Weller, the editor and founder, contacted me about doing the article and using my photos. It turned out really well with comparison shots of the film/shooting with the ones I took during my visit. If you aren't aware of the magazine, do check it out. Scott has uncovered all sorts of interesting info and photos on all 6 SW films.

and mods and/or T-Bone is it ok to do linkage once it's up or is that forbidden?

RollaFett

02-29-2008, 04:55 PM

I can't see why it would be forbidden. Of course, no hotlinking.

JediBendu

03-05-2008, 05:14 AM

lovelucas

03-05-2008, 01:12 PM

ahhhh but ESPECIALLY the location!! They are both worth the trip.

Master Magnus

03-05-2008, 04:04 PM

It felt kind of odd seeing the exact same location in Casino Royale, but it's sure pretty.

Raganork8

03-05-2008, 04:44 PM

It felt kind of odd seeing the exact same location in Casino Royale, but it's sure pretty.

I had that same feeling; that one shot when Bond comes to Mr. White's house always feels Naboo-ish to me!

lovelucas

03-05-2008, 04:45 PM

but it was Naboo first....
see....there will be complaints that it takes away from Italy being able to represent a SW planet but....then they'll be complaints if everything is computer generated. There aren't a lot of places left on earth that can contain the sense of wonder you experience from seeing a place for the first time that can also serve the requirements of Star Wars.
Hmm good topic...what other real-life locations would you "believe" to be a Star Wars location?
The desert's been used - Tatooine - Tunisia and Death Valley
The forest's been used - Endor - northern California
The frozen tundra's been used - Hoth - Norway
Theed - Spain/Italy
Naboo - Lake Como
In this day of GoogleEarth it's becoming progressively more difficult to use real-life locations for science fiction / fantasy.

RollaFett

03-05-2008, 04:48 PM

Well, we never really saw a huge mountain-ish planet. Sure, we got a glimpse of Alderran at the end of ROTS, but we never saw something like that play an intregal role as a location.

lovelucas

03-05-2008, 05:21 PM

Dang - you're right - that was the Matterhorn in Switzerland serving as Alderaan. and of course the lava flow from Mt Etna for Mustafar -
speaking of -
The name Mustafar derives from the Arabic word "Mustafa", which translates as "the chosen one". However, also compare with Muspelheim, the Norse realm of fire.

JediBendu

03-06-2008, 09:06 AM

Well, we never really saw a huge mountain-ish planet. Sure, we got a glimpse of Alderran at the end of ROTS, but we never saw something like that play an intregal role as a location.

I always wondered whether that was intentional or whether GL had wanted a bit more politiking set on Alderaan considering it's symbolism of the rebellion.

JediBendu

03-06-2008, 09:11 AM

....then they'll be complaints if everything is computer generated.
...
In this day of GoogleEarth it's becoming progressively more difficult to use real-life locations for science fiction / fantasy.

which is why we should be eternally grateful to GL for pushing CG backgrounds and characters - it allows some great scifi stories to be made that previously would have been cost prohibitive to make a movie :D :D

RollaFett

03-06-2008, 12:07 PM

Dang - you're right - that was the Matterhorn in Switzerland serving as Alderaan. and of course the lava flow from Mt Etna for Mustafar

Right, and there were some mountains in the background on Hoth as well.
It would've been cool to see a dogfight zig-zagging it's way through a large mountain range at some point, but no dice. Oh well.

RollaFett

03-06-2008, 12:10 PM

which is why we should be eternally grateful to GL for pushing CG backgrounds and characters - it allows some great scifi stories to be made that previously would have been cost prohibitive to make a movie :D :D

I agree. And the constant bashing of the CG backgrounds always seemed unfair to me. I've never thought thay looked cartoonish or fake at all. I mean, c'mon, we all know most of it was fake, but I totally bought into it all and never once thought, "Man, that just looks like CGI".
Lucas, for imagining up such wonderful settings, and ILM for creating them, both did a helluva job on the PT and don't get enough credit, IMO.
Hell, ROTS didn't even get an Oscar nomination for visual effects! Now that was a joke.

Talcy

03-06-2008, 12:18 PM

RollaFett

03-06-2008, 12:26 PM

I got no problem with Kong winning, despite the absolutely brutal dinosuar scene, but yes, Sith should've been nominated. Why do they insist on nominating only 3 films anyway? Dopes.

JediBendu

03-06-2008, 12:30 PM

Out of the three nominations that year, one definitely did not deserve (IMO) to be there - Chronicles of Narnia. It was up against King Kong and War of the Worlds, both of which had outstanding VFX - and Kong deserved to win as far as I'm concerned. But Sith should been the third nominee.

Narnia and War of the Worlds were done by ILM. Kong wouldn't have been possible without Gollum, and Gollum wouldn't have been possible without Jar Jar =)

lovelucas

03-06-2008, 02:11 PM

and nothing for Trisha Biggar either - not once was she even nominated for any of the prequels. All of those costumes - Padmé's alone warranted consideration plus creating new designs for each and every Jedi and changing those designs as we move through the prequels; the handmaidens, Jango, Bail, Darth Maul, Palpatine, the Lars Family, all of those characters climbing the stairs at the opera, Baron George and his family, all of the CG characters on all those planets - Watto!

and never even one nomination.
But Walk the Line's costumes (black top, black pants) was nominated.

lovelucas

03-07-2008, 05:41 PM

This is regarding my trip to the real Lake Retreat in northern Italy and Gigliola Foglia who is a guide (and big SW fan!) for the Villa Balbianello at Lake Como - she was there during filming {from an earlier post on page 6}

I emailed her initially back in 2003 and when the trip was finally a reality I contacted her again in 2005 - I have kept in touch with her, but only know her from that correspondence and my visit to the villa. I do want to emphasize that she donates the money she earns as a guide to the preservation of the site. She doesn't pocket anything. She really cares about Star Wars, Lake Como and the villa, and she is so genuine about sharing the adventure of being present during the filming of AotC. She is a true fan.
and next month you can see a pictorial article of my visit in The Aficionado, a British online Star Wars publication. Scott Weller, the editor and founder, contacted me about doing the article and using my photos. It turned out really well with comparison shots of the film/shooting with the ones I took during my visit. If you aren't aware of the magazine, do check it out. Scott has uncovered all sorts of interesting info and photos on all 6 SW films.

and Scott just emailed me a few minutes to go to say it's now online:
http://www.starwarsaficionado.com/page/page/5228213.htm
open A Trip To Naboo
Hope you guys like it -
Lovelucas finally revealed

Rabid Whiphid

03-10-2008, 02:17 AM

I always wondered whether that was intentional or whether GL had wanted a bit more politiking set on Alderaan considering it's symbolism of the rebellion.

I always had funny suspicions about Alderaan's place in the prequel trilogy storyline myself.

Call me crazy, but I have often wondered if all the action set on Naboo was originally intended to take place on Alderaan, but Lucas changed his mind at the last minute and changed the name of the planet to Naboo.

In all the old books that came out at the time of the original trilogy, there had always been the suggestion, that Alderaan was such an important planet during the days of the Old Republic.

And during the years after Return of the Jedi came out, there were a LOT of speculative rumors about "the next Star Wars trilogy". You heard rumors that Alderaan would be one of the major settings... as the planet where Luke and Leia's mother came from, or as the planet where the Rebel Alliance would be born.

So, a year or two before Phantom Menace came out, when Lucasfilm released the first photographs showing images of "the young queen's (un-named) home planet", I just naturally assumed it had to be Alderaan.That assumption just made clear sensed based on everything I had learned about Star Wars up to that point. Plus those images looked exactly like the way I had always imagined Alderaan to be, based on the descriptions of it that I'd read in various Star Wars books over the years.

Later I was surprised (and a little disappointed) when I first learned that this was some new planet called Naboo.

I still find it strange that Lucas would decide not to have Leia's mother come from Alderaan (the same planet Leia was from)... but he did decide to have Luke's father come from Tatooine (the same planet Luke is from).

If I'm right - if Alderaan was changed to Naboo - what would be the reason for doing that? Maybe because when Lucas got around to writing Episode 1 he decided that the planet needed to have weapons so they could have a battle with the Trade Federation. And Alderaan was always described as a peaceful planet with no weapons. I dunno. Only reason I can come up with. I guess it's a Star Wars mystery.

JediBendu

03-10-2008, 09:23 AM

and Scott just emailed me a few minutes to go to say it's now online:
http://www.starwarsaficionado.com/page/page/5228213.htm
open A Trip To Naboo
Hope you guys like it -
Lovelucas finally revealed

*lol*
all these years I thought you were a bloke!! :lol:
that pdf is so cool! it must have been a bit surreal when you first saw the photos?

JediBendu

03-10-2008, 09:30 AM

If I'm right - if Alderaan was changed to Naboo - what would be the reason for doing that? Maybe because when Lucas got around to writing Episode 1 he decided that the planet needed to have weapons so they could have a battle with the Trade Federation. And Alderaan was always described as a peaceful planet with no weapons. I dunno. Only reason I can come up with. I guess it's a Star Wars mystery.

"..Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons" - leia, anh

Alderaan's also a core world isn't it? It would've been hard to explain how they got to Tatooine on the outer rim.
Also, Leia's always been known as an adoptive daughter, having Queen Amidala on Alderaan would've discounted that idea.

Jedi Master Harrison

03-10-2008, 11:10 AM

Cool LL. :) Finally you have revealed yourself to the Sith, er, the GS. :laughing:

RollaFett

03-10-2008, 12:46 PM

I always had funny suspicions about Alderaan's place in the prequel trilogy storyline myself.

Call me crazy, but I have often wondered if all the action set on Naboo was originally intended to take place on Alderaan, but Lucas changed his mind at the last minute and changed the name of the planet to Naboo.

In all the old books that came out at the time of the original trilogy, there had always been the suggestion, that Alderaan was such an important planet during the days of the Old Republic.

And during the years after Return of the Jedi came out, there were a LOT of speculative rumors about "the next Star Wars trilogy". You heard rumors that Alderaan would be one of the major settings... as the planet where Luke and Leia's mother came from, or as the planet where the Rebel Alliance would be born.

So, a year or two before Phantom Menace came out, when Lucasfilm released the first photographs showing images of "the young queen's (un-named) home planet", I just naturally assumed it had to be Alderaan.That assumption just made clear sensed based on everything I had learned about Star Wars up to that point. Plus those images looked exactly like the way I had always imagined Alderaan to be, based on the descriptions of it that I'd read in various Star Wars books over the years.

Later I was surprised (and a little disappointed) when I first learned that this was some new planet called Naboo.

I still find it strange that Lucas would decide not to have Leia's mother come from Alderaan (the same planet Leia was from)... but he did decide to have Luke's father come from Tatooine (the same planet Luke is from).

If I'm right - if Alderaan was changed to Naboo - what would be the reason for doing that? Maybe because when Lucas got around to writing Episode 1 he decided that the planet needed to have weapons so they could have a battle with the Trade Federation. And Alderaan was always described as a peaceful planet with no weapons. I dunno. Only reason I can come up with. I guess it's a Star Wars mystery.

I never had any real assumptions about that, but I suppose that makes sense. I'll add, however, that Lucas originally had Alderran as an Imperial base in the early days of writing the drafts. Cloud City was originally an Imperial prison as well, if I recall correctly.
I recently read "The Making of Star Wars" by JW Rinzler, and it was very interesting seeing all of the planet/location names that never made it into ANH being used/changed for later films.

*lol*
all these years I thought you were a bloke!! :lol:

Me too, until we had a...uhhh...contentious debate last year and found out I was mis-gendering her as well.

Rabid Whiphid

03-12-2008, 03:19 AM

I recently read "The Making of Star Wars" by JW Rinzler, and it was very interesting seeing all of the planet/location names that never made it into ANH being used/changed for later films. .

Oh man, I loved that book. It was one of those SW related products that actually had me counting down the days till its release date, and then going out of my way to hunt down a copy on the first day it came out. I anticipated that book almost as much as a Star Wars movie!

And in a totally amazing coincidence, it just so happened to come out on the day before a week-long vacation I had been planning to take off of work. So that ended up being a fun highlight - reading through that book, over the course of a brief but much needed break...

RollaFett

03-12-2008, 03:43 PM

Heh, heh...nice. As for me, I spent many an evening after work with a few 7&7's, some John Williams, and that massive tome. Much like I used to do with the SW Insider magazine back in the day.
Miss those nights, I do.

PS - Good to see we still get along in other threads, eh? :P

Darth Apotheosus

03-13-2008, 02:02 PM

Have to add my two cents here: I love these films on DVD for the same reason as stated above - I can freely skip all of the droll parts and head right for the meat of the story. First - Obi-wan is incredible throughout the entire series. So is R2. No arguments from me on either one of those, and I will fight to the teeth to defend them any chance I get. But...

TPM: Take out Anakin and Padme and you've got a great action thriller like the old matinees. Insert the kid and the teen and get a dose of the ho-hums.

AOTC: Remove the so-called romance stuff. They spent way too much time ramming down our throats that these two were supposed to be in love. Qui-gon and Shmi's brief interactions had far more chemistry. I shouldn't forget the scenes with Han and Leia - for such a tiny percentage of screen time, their interactions ring so true to a budding love interest (let's just forget she ever wet-lipped her brother, however. Yecchhhhh!)

RotS: At first it was my least favorite, but I like this one more each time I see it. Still Hayden is difficult for me to swallow as the eventual Darth Vader. He seems like a petty, angry child who would just turn and clobber you or spit in your face, while I've always seen Darth Vader as mature, cruel, coldly manipulative, not simply bashing out in hate at everything. The character differences never seem to be reconciled. Maybe that will change with the introduction of the series, but who knows?

I've been too brief here, I know, and I have tons of reasons why things are necessary and things aren't in these films.

JediBendu

03-14-2008, 01:35 PM

First - Obi-wan is incredible throughout the entire series.

aye - casting Ewen MacGreggor was the probably the best decision GL made.
...other than Jar Jar of course!

TPM: Take out Anakin and Padme and you've got a great action thriller like the old matinees. Insert the kid and the teen and get a dose of the ho-hums.

completely disagree - 1. you need Anakin as a boy to show that he does have good in him, 2. Amidala in TPM was probably the only real acting portman's actually done in her career *ducks* 3. there focus on Anakin/Padme isn't that much - just enough to set up the relationship for the next film.

AOTC: Remove the so-called romance stuff. They spent way too much time ramming down our throats that these two were supposed to be in love.

ya it was awful esp the 'dieing a little bit every day' bit :banghead: I think GL could have gone with another motivational factor for Anakin turning, but love it probably the most common reason in our own history

Qui-gon and Shmi's brief interactions had far more chemistry.
:laughing: actually I thought they were gonna hook up when the first previews came out.

RotS: At first it was my least favorite, but I like this one more each time I see it. Still Hayden is difficult for me to swallow as the eventual Darth Vader. He seems like a petty, angry child who would just turn and clobber you or spit in your face, while I've always seen Darth Vader as mature, cruel, coldly manipulative, not simply bashing out in hate at everything.

I could be wrong, but I think GL mentioned that he wanted Anakin to appear a petulent little child in his anger - a child doesn't have the maturity or patients which Anakin clearly also lacking. There were a couple of cheesy lines which weren't helped by Hayden's delivery, but I think he did pull off an early Vader quite well - remember Vader in ANH had 18 years of darkside goodness behind him.

Darth Apotheosus

03-14-2008, 02:06 PM

you need Anakin as a boy to show that he does have good in him

Pardon the ambiguity of that response - I should have said 'that kid as Anakin'. Grated on me everytime I had to watch him, pre-DVD. In the theatres that was bathroom/popcorn time.

Amidala in TPM was probably the only real acting portman's actually done in her career *ducks*

You'll have no arguments from me on that she's a horrible actress. I never thought she was that great in anything I've seen. She's a Hollywood starlet, and you know about them...

there focus on Anakin/Padme isn't that much - just enough to set up the relationship for the next film.

Don't disagree that the connection was needed, but it was pathetic. Better actors/actresses could have made it more believable, as well as more believable motivations. See below...

ya it was awful esp the 'dieing a little bit every day' bit :banghead: I think GL could have gone with another motivational factor for Anakin turning, but love it probably the most common reason in our own history

I could be wrong, but I think GL mentioned that he wanted Anakin to appear a petulent little child in his anger.

I don't disagree there, completely. I just don't see that line of psychology meshing with the Vader of IV-VI. Had he bothered with a therapist later in life, the diagnosis would probably been closer to a dark tormented childhood in which Vader had been tortured and abused. If he had been *rescued* from his past by the motherly then wifely love of Padme (along with the jedi, of course), he would have a twisted version of 'love' that would leave him no qualms about terrifying the rest of the galaxy, etc etc... I would have found the whole "I-did-it-all-for-love" easier to swallow.

Jedi Master Harrison

03-14-2008, 02:21 PM

Portman a horrible actress? Dear me boys. :giveup:

JediBendu

03-14-2008, 02:22 PM

Don't disagree that the connection was needed, but it was pathetic. Better actors/actresses could have made it more believable, as well as more believable motivations. See below...
ya but who? Portman was a good choice for TPM, but I think she just couldn't be arsed in the other two after the first was bagged by the critics. I've always thought who else could've played Anakin, but Hayden was still the better option.

I don't disagree there, completely. I just don't see that line of psychology meshing with the Vader of IV-VI. Had he bothered with a therapist later in life, the diagnosis would probably been closer to a dark tormented childhood in which Vader had been tortured and abused. If he had been *rescued* from his past by the motherly then wifely love of Padme (along with the jedi, of course). That way his twisted version of 'love' would also terrify the rest of the galaxy, etc etc... I would have found the whole "I-did-it-all-for-love" easier to swallow.

ya - I agree - it's not enough to loose a bird and then decide the enslave the galaxy!
Perhaps GL is making a comment about the effect of his own marriage failure?

JediBendu

03-14-2008, 02:23 PM

Portman a horrible actress? Dear me boys. :giveup:

yup, but she was great as Amidala in TPM

...and of course the stripper from Closer :blush:

Jedi Master Harrison

03-14-2008, 02:26 PM

^ And of course a fantastic child role in Leon. But anyway, I appear to be :offtopic:

Raganork8

03-17-2008, 11:20 AM

Portman a horrible actress? Dear me boys. :giveup:

I'm with you here

There's nothing you can do to convince me she's a bad actress; she's a wonderful actress and better human being.

I'm not sure that she's the best; but, she's heaps better than the people her age out there now.

I'm not sure who you think is better.

Darth Apotheosus

03-17-2008, 01:20 PM

yup, but she was great as Amidala in TPM

Actually, I think the 'better' parts of Amidala were played by Keira Knightley. Not that she's a fantastic actress either, but I will give Portman the concession that while she doesn't at all behave like a queen or a diplomat, she's at least believable in the looks department as Luke and Leia's mother. <--- I will add here that IMO, the one scene in which she is believable as a senator and shows some decent acting skills is the one from RotS which they cut!

As for casting Anakin, GL himself pigeonholed himself into getting an actor around the age of Hayden Christensen (Virtually all of the actors his age are a bunch of pretty-boys, none of which are suited for the role, so I suppose my comment is still 'parrt of the problem' and not the solution). I always expected to see a much older actor in the role of Clone War Anakin (apparently GL had too, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed on Sebastian Shaw in the role of an unmasked Vader), and felt there was too much of a time crunch. Obi-wan's wistful dialogue from ANH made the Old Republic and the fall of the jedi seem to have occurred in a far more distant past than two measley decades. The prequels suffered from this on-the-fly editing of the timeline rather than trying to work within the original confines he imposed on his story.

Anyway, I seem to be off-topic here. Like the others, it may not be the greatest, but it does have its moments. R2-D2 flying, Yoda breaking out a saber (how long have we old-timers waited for that!) and Obi-wan, especially fighting with Jango.

Raganork8

03-17-2008, 05:54 PM

Hayden Christensen was wonderfully cast as Anakin Skywalker

the only thing wrong with him; is that he's not what audience expected him to be; as well as how people perceived the prequels to be; people have to face the simple fact...

They were wrong; that WASN'T the story; GL knows the story and thats what it was.

I like it the way it is and I think some of the "corniness" is very realistic; people do act like that; thats why it's so annoying to watch.

As far as that Obi-Wan Comment

How long ago did you want it to be?

How old did you want Obi Wan to be?

Think of it if it was 40 years before ANH Obi Wan would have been 70 roughly. Twenty Bad years can be an eternity for some people.

The only think I can gripe about the prequels is...not Enough Dooku and the lack of music from it; I wish II and III didn't use so much of the previous film's music.

borgmatrix

03-17-2008, 09:55 PM

Actually, I think the 'better' parts of Amidala were played by Keira Knightley. Not that she's a fantastic actress either, but I will give Portman the concession that while she doesn't at all behave like a queen or a diplomat, she's at least believable in the looks department as Luke and Leia's mother. <--- I will add here that IMO, the one scene in which she is believable as a senator and shows some decent acting skills is the one from RotS which they cut!
I thought Portman was best in TPM. I liked her there, both as the Queen and in the handmaiden/Padme role. But I thought she got progressively worse from there. I didn't really mind her too much in AOTC, but I'm not sure what happened in ROTS. I loved her delivery of the "So this is how liberty dies" line. Perfect there. But otherwise, not good.

As for casting Anakin, GL himself pigeonholed himself into getting an actor around the age of Hayden Christensen (Virtually all of the actors his age are a bunch of pretty-boys, none of which are suited for the role, so I suppose my comment is still 'parrt of the problem' and not the solution).
I've been wondering how James Franco might have fared in the role.

I always expected to see a much older actor in the role of Clone War Anakin (apparently GL had too, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed on Sebastian Shaw in the role of an unmasked Vader), and felt there was too much of a time crunch. Obi-wan's wistful dialogue from ANH made the Old Republic and the fall of the jedi seem to have occurred in a far more distant past than two measley decades. The prequels suffered from this on-the-fly editing of the timeline rather than trying to work within the original confines he imposed on his story.
Well, I'm not sure he was working within the original confines of his story in the OT, either. I don't think Lucas hit upon the Vader=Anakin notion until early drafts of ESB, which I think altered the path of SW from what he'd probably been envisioning with ANH.

Like the others, it may not be the greatest, but it does have its moments. R2-D2 flying, Yoda breaking out a saber (how long have we old-timers waited for that!) and Obi-wan, especially fighting with Jango.
Yeah, loved the Kenobi-Jango fight. The last 30-40 minutes were excellent. And I really loved the Tusken Slaughter/Yoda sensing it/Anakin's admission scenes. On the whole, I really enjoyed AOTC.

Hayden Christensen was wonderfully cast as Anakin Skywalker

the only thing wrong with him; is that he's not what audience expected him to be; as well as how people perceived the prequels to be; people have to face the simple fact...
Not sure I can agree. I don't have a problem with Hayden, like most seem to. But at the same time, I don't think I can honestly say he's great. Part of the issue is certainly the style of the dialogue. Another part is possibly Lucas not being the best at directing actors. Another is probably that Hayden doesn't turn in the greatest performance/delivery.

I think, perhaps, a different actor could have done better within the confines of the role and given the context of Lucas' abilities/desires with the dialogue/style.

They were wrong; that WASN'T the story; GL knows the story and thats what it was.
GL knows the story, but that doesn't mean he was perfect in what aspects he brought to the screen and how he chose to distribute it over the trilogy. I prefer the PT to the OT, but I still would have done things very differently in places.

The only think I can gripe about the prequels is...not Enough Dooku and the lack of music from it; I wish II and III didn't use so much of the previous film's music.
More Dooku would have been good. More Obi-wan/Anakin interaction, especially within context of the Clone War, would have had huge impact. An early introduction to Grievous (epII) would have been nice, as would inclusion of the Padme petition arc (probably over epII and III).

Darth Apotheosus

03-18-2008, 01:36 PM

I like it the way it is and I think some of the "corniness" is very realistic; people do act like that; thats why it's so annoying to watch.

Entertainment, even on the Saturday-matinee scale GL intended should have been more polished, more meaningful. Every second in a screenplay counts and so much of it was wasted on that 'corny' dialogue. Such as... what I said about them trying to ram their 'romance' down our throats, then watch Leia and Han to see how its done, as one example.

As far as that Obi-Wan Comment

How long ago did you want it to be?

How old did you want Obi Wan to be?

Think of it if it was 40 years before ANH Obi Wan would have been 70 roughly. Twenty Bad years can be an eternity for some people.

Sure, for some people, but in a Republic that has supposedly lasted for 25,000 years, 20 years is a paltry sum. As for the exact ages, I would have to think on that a bit. The way it currently stands doesn't make it sound EPIC enough...

I will add something else, as I just had to watch it again... I do absolutely love Ben Burtt's choice for the sound effect of the charges Jango released - nothing, then that BEWHONNNGG... very cool, Ben, very cool.

borgmatrix

03-18-2008, 03:44 PM

Such as... what I said about them trying to ram their 'romance' down our throats, then watch Leia and Han to see how its done, as one example.
Well, I don't know about that. When I watched all 6 movies together in order (and it had been a while since I'd seen the OT), I was surprised during the early part of ESB just how lame the Leia/Han dialogue was. You know, the "Han, we need you!/We?/Yes./Oh, what about you need?/I need? I don't know what you're talking about" segment.

I can't pretend to have any sense of objectivity and say that's better than some of the PT dialogue. There was more of the romance aspect in AOTC, so yeah, I suppose that's the ramming it down our throats part, but at least when we get to Anakin and Padme expressing their love for one another, there's actually some sense of believability given the time spent getting there. That's versus Leia suddenly loving Han at the end of ESB when there was hardly any time spent to get there.

For me, not a big deal. Its really not.

RollaFett

03-18-2008, 04:40 PM

Couldn't disagree more, borg.

I too, recently watched ESB and while I won't argue that the dialogue itself was award-winning, it didn't need to be, but it was still good. Whether or not you love the dialogue, the performances by Ford and Fisher sold it. As far as the time spent goes, well, why is the time spent getting there for Anakin and Padme in AOTC more believable and able to lead to feelings of love more than the time spent for Han and Leia in ESB, not to mention ANH? As far as we, the audience, knows, they've been together since the rescue on the Death Star. By the time Leia admits her feelings, they've known each other for a few years, whereas Anakin and Padme are only just reconnecting after 10 years, and he was a mere child even then.
In the end, I've gotten to the point where I do buy the romance in AOTC. Obviously, Anakin and Padme were raised far differently than Han and Leia, so they dealt with expressing their feelings in a much more awkward manner. I can accept that and as such, I can buy the romance. However, I'll never be convinced that it was executed better, or even equally, than Han and Leia.

borgmatrix

03-18-2008, 05:12 PM

Whether or not you love the dialogue, the performances by Ford and Fisher sold it.
I'll never disagree about Ford and Fisher. There's no doubt. But the performances are probably the only reason why some of the dialogue comes across better. As written, much of it (and this is throughout the OT) it no better than that of the PT. Understand the distinction I'm making here, Rolla. I'm just talking about the dialogue on paper, not how its sounding coming out of the actors' mouths.

As far as we, the audience, knows, they've been together since the rescue on the Death Star.
Sure. But audiences are mostly going to be thinking about what they see on screen, often considering these things unconsciously. I'm not expecting people to be adding up the months/years or calculating this stuff out. I'm just saying that with AOTC, there's at least an attempt at a build-up/development where we see these two in romantic settings and getting the chance to get to know one another quietly, as opposed to a physical attraction brought out more solely due to the male and female leads battling intense stress in the fight against the enemy. The latter we see all the time, and we never get the sense that the lead male and female characters are going to get married or have anything that'll last beyond the short-term.

Look, I'm not saying the execution was better in the PT. But again, just that I can probably buy into reaching a state of 'love' rather than 'attraction' more with Lucas' attempts with Anakin/Padme compared to Han/Leia. That's all.

No argument from me over Ford/Fisher being much better than Christensen/Portman.

RollaFett

03-18-2008, 05:32 PM

I understand you perfectly, borg, I just disagree. The dialogue, on paper, is still better for Han/Leia than for Anakin/Padme, IMO.
For Han and Leia, it feels more honest, more relaxed in nature, and definately true to the characters.
Now that's not to say that the dialogue, on paper, for Anakin/Padme wasn't true to their characters, because it certainly was. However, it never felt real enough for me. It was too stilted and overly formal. Again, that makes perfect sense for those two characters, but I can't relate to it. As a result, Han/Leia's words will always sound better to me.
Also, the time period is indeed a factor, especially since it's plainly pointed out how long it's been since Anakin and Padme had seen each other last. The audience has no choice but to know that it's been ten years, yet they still fall in love in a matter of days?
To me, the years that you instictively know Han and Leia have spent together makes their attraction more believable. Plus, Han'd flirting with Leia was also evident in ANH, as was her wry smile to him at the medal ceremony.

borgmatrix

03-18-2008, 06:24 PM

To me, the years that you instictively know Han and Leia have spent together makes their attraction more believable.
Is that the case, though, because I've always felt/assumed ESB was right after ANH without a whole lot of time between them. It never felt otherwise to me.

No doubt about the formal dialogue, though. I suppose for Lucas that was another difference between pre- and post-Empire. Intentional on his part, but perhaps not the best choice as far as drawing in the viewers.

Raganork8

03-18-2008, 08:20 PM

watch Leia and Han to see how its done, as one example.

I have to disagree; Han and Leia are two completely different characters in two very different situations.

Not to mention they were both older and more mature. Plus were wholly fighting on the same side; AND, not hiding anything in necessity.

As much as people hate the romance; I don't feel it was crammed; like I always said; had we not got what we got in AOTC, ROTS would have suffered from it.

The one thing you don't doubt about Anakin and Padme is that they love each other...

I'm certain Obi Wan's actions scene didn't help that :wink:

RollaFett

03-19-2008, 12:51 PM

Is that the case, though, because I've always felt/assumed ESB was right after ANH without a whole lot of time between them. It never felt otherwise to me.

Well, I always felt as though it was at least a couple of years in between those films, timeline-wise. Some years ago, I saw an actual timeline where it was a 3 year gap. Now, upon checking out the timeline compiled by our very own Nathan Butler, it seems to be indeed a 3 year gap.
http://www.starwarsfanworks.com/timeline/index.html

Darth Apotheosus

03-19-2008, 01:26 PM

I have to disagree; Han and Leia are two completely different characters in two very different situations.

Han and Leia had chemistry. So did, as I stated before, Qui-gon and Shmi, even though nothing came of it. The statement about ramming it down our throats is still accurate- the two of them had no chemistry and had to compensate with trite, hokey, unbelievable dialogue.

The one thing you don't doubt about Anakin and Padme is that they love each other...

I do, in fact, doubt it very much. Even if I were to completely ignore the build-up dialogue, I would argue that Anakin had an obsession problem with Padme, and she just eventually gave in. And as she spouted that final line, you know... he's good and alll that... THAT was denial. Overall, his behavior is interpreted better as sexual predation (with a little narcissism thrown in) than true love. He got everything he wanted - to be married to the woman he "loves" while putting her career and life in jeaopardy. What did she get? The occasional visit, pregnant with no way to explain it or come out about the father (politicians love that sort of thing) and, face it, it cost her her life.

Also, if they were so in love, why would Anakin have garnered such a swift and absolute decision that his wife betrayed him with his friend? True love, psychologically speaking, would have been in denial. No evidence of that in the dialogue or actions that he went through that stage. Nope... he simply let his emotions take over and he tried to choke her to death. That's not true love, that's a jealous sociopath. THAT doesn't mesh with the "did-it-all-for-love" decisions he makes earlier in the film.

All in all, I won't disagree the film(s) at this point are tragedies, but not because of a simple 'love' story gone awry.

PS: Not entirely on a tangent... I'll anticipate someone else arguing these movies are made for kids so they shouldn't be so complex/violent/psychological, etc. then why did they dress the women in sleazy outfits in many of the films?

Tovor

03-19-2008, 01:36 PM

...Also, if they were so in love, why would Anakin have garnered such a swift and absolute decision that his wife betrayed him with his friend? True love, psychologically speaking, would have been in denial. No evidence of that in the dialogue or actions that he went through that stage. Nope... he simply let his emotions take over and he tried to choke her to death. That's not true love, that's a jealous sociopath. THAT doesn't mesh with the "did-it-all-for-love" decisions he makes earlier in the film.

I believe that that is the nature of the dark side, the mistrust, the paranoia, the rage, etc. Such a thing happens all the time in our own societies, even without the dark side of the Force coming into play, that men get overcome by jealosy and assume their mate is cheating on them and react violently. There was a tragedy a few years ago, where at their wedding reception, the groom became insanely jealous because his own cousin was dancing with his new bride, a fight broke out, and he wound up killing his own wife on the spot.

That is the fear of loss, that Palpatine mentioned, of losing one's power. I'm just saying that I believe there was love there, but also the fear of loss, and the rising paranoia that the Jedi were out to take over the Republic, and that they would all try to kill him (as Sidious had said right after Anakin became Vader), so the dark side brought out his assumption of betrayal and resulting rage.

Jedi Master Harrison

03-19-2008, 02:12 PM

Sleazy outfits in the films? Have I missed something?! Where's the sleazy outfits?!

Raganork8

03-19-2008, 04:30 PM

I do, in fact, doubt it very much.

you must have hated ROTS then

Baltar

03-20-2008, 09:40 AM

you must have hated ROTS then

I know I did:nahnah:

JediBendu

03-20-2008, 10:11 AM

Obi-wan's wistful dialogue from ANH made the Old Republic and the fall of the jedi seem to have occurred in a far more distant past than two measley decades. The prequels suffered from this on-the-fly editing of the timeline rather than trying to work within the original confines he imposed on his story.

ya - it's also not enough time for the Jedi to be forgotten as a hokey religion.
there's also too much of an age gap between Obi-Wan and Anakin - ANH sets them up as friends around the same age.

JediBendu

03-20-2008, 10:16 AM

I'll never disagree about Ford and Fisher. There's no doubt. But the performances are probably the only reason why some of the dialogue comes across better. As written, much of it (and this is throughout the OT) it no better than that of the PT. Understand the distinction I'm making here, Rolla. I'm just talking about the dialogue on paper, not how its sounding coming out of the actors' mouths.

I could be wrong, but wasn't most of the dialogue ad-lib or the result of numerous takes to get it right? The whole 'I love you', 'I know' scene was the final take after 15 and Harrison just made up the line!

borgmatrix

03-20-2008, 10:47 AM

ya - it's also not enough time for the Jedi to be forgotten as a hokey religion.
there's also too much of an age gap between Obi-Wan and Anakin - ANH sets them up as friends around the same age.
Yeah. That was the impression that I think was given. And like I was saying before, I think its because Lucas was probably thinking along different lines originally. He probably was envisioning Vader and Anakin as two different people (and therefore Kenobi's story to Luke literally true), and Anakin was likely intended to be closer to Kenobi's age. ESB was probably where the story changed course, I'd guess in early drafts as Lucas hit on the idea of Vader and Anakin being one and the same. Of course, even then, I'm not sure that changes the time between the events of the Jedi Purge and ANH since we look at Luke and basically get a sense he was around 19-20 years old. So you couldn't have more time than that pass between Anakin's death (or becoming Vader as it turns out) and ANH.

Darth Apotheosus

03-20-2008, 01:57 PM

I believe that that is the nature of the dark side, the mistrust, the paranoia, the rage, etc. Such a thing happens all the time in our own societies, even without the dark side of the Force coming into play, that men get overcome by jealosy and assume their mate is cheating on them and react violently. There was a tragedy a few years ago, where at their wedding reception, the groom became insanely jealous because his own cousin was dancing with his new bride, a fight broke out, and he wound up killing his own wife on the spot.

Horrible tragedy, to be sure, but it only highlights that there was something harbored deep within the groom and that dance "broke the camel's back" and set the man off, not just a jealous rage at that moment. He wasn't rational to begin with.

I'm going to divert a little, and try to make the Ana/Pad romance "work" instead of just ripping it apart.

Statement: I could have bought the "love" even with his final treatment of his wife IF there had been more psycholoigally to back it up. Being under the sway of the dark side is far too simplistic a reason - it really needs to mesh psychologically. The storylines, especially those from the EU do nothing but blossom into fuller, more beautiful flowers when complexity arises from within the character rather than "the dark side made him do it."

If I were in the director's seat: We did see one such scene in AotC, namely in the elevator, in which there is a teensy bit of rivalry between Obi and Anakin (where he says maybe he's more in tune with her than his Padawan). A few more scenes where there's some direct interaction between Obi-wan and Padme would help. It wouldn't even have to come from Padme. Just a look of admiration from Obi, a smile for an old friend from Padme... could have set Anakin's whistles blowing. It would also make some more of the die-hard stunts he pulls during the film more "bluster" as he tries to show off for her.

I would have carried this over into RotS - again, we do see one preliminary scene, in his vision with Obiwan and Padme as she's dying, but its not enough. Integrating Obi a little deeper into the initial scene (which would change the structure of the scene, I know, but it wasn't convincing anyway) with Padme might have added yet another nudge toward his final actions. (to Anakin's jealous mind, at any rate, even if we know Obi would never betray his friend that way). I might even have given Anakin dialogue regarding her pregnancy, something to the effect of accusing Obi-wan of fathering the children. THAT would have made his motivation to choke the life out of her even more believable. Then Obi could tell him what a fool he was to hurt him, she loved only you, etc.

Darth Apotheosus

03-20-2008, 02:06 PM

Of course, even then, I'm not sure that changes the time between the events of the Jedi Purge and ANH since we look at Luke and basically get a sense he was around 19-20 years old. So you couldn't have more time than that pass between Anakin's death (or becoming Vader as it turns out) and ANH.

I don't doubt that Luke is 19-20.

But my little brain starting working out the plot right there in the theatre (I'm admitting my age when I say I saw all of them in the theaters on their ORIGINAL release dates...not special editions) when I heard that jaw-dropper from ESB... I had always gotten the impression Vader had some kind of *ahem* "interlude" with a woman who somehow escaped when she found out she was pregnant to Vader. And after ROTJ, I thought that when she popped out twins, she realized (sexist, yes, to be sure) that her son would be the key, and set up to protect him by cutting him off from her, and taking her daughter off to live on Alderaan, where she met a nice prince, yada yoda yoda) There's nothing in the original trilogy that set up his prior relationships in such a way that GL had to make them actually meet and fall in love with one another in the prequels.

RollaFett

03-20-2008, 02:37 PM

Yeah. That was the impression that I think was given. And like I was saying before, I think its because Lucas was probably thinking along different lines originally. He probably was envisioning Vader and Anakin as two different people (and therefore Kenobi's story to Luke literally true), and Anakin was likely intended to be closer to Kenobi's age. ESB was probably where the story changed course, I'd guess in early drafts as Lucas hit on the idea of Vader and Anakin being one and the same. Of course, even then, I'm not sure that changes the time between the events of the Jedi Purge and ANH since we look at Luke and basically get a sense he was around 19-20 years old. So you couldn't have more time than that pass between Anakin's death (or becoming Vader as it turns out) and ANH.

I'm with you there, borg. And if you ever got your hands on all the drafts of the screenplays you'd see the point where the saga changed forever. I believe it was the 2nd draft of ESB where Lucas made the decision to make Vader Luke's father.
For more information, I will now plug the ebook I plugged quite a bit last summer, "The Secret History of Star Wars". Check my sig.

borgmatrix

03-20-2008, 04:27 PM

For more information, I will now plug the ebook I plugged quite a bit last summer, "The Secret History of Star Wars". Check my sig.
And I would recommend checking it out. It's a fun read and fascinating to trace how SW grew over the years into the story it is today. This is more a reference to a recent discussion in another thread, but when it comes to discussing Lucas and his creation of SW, there end up being a lot of accusations of "bashing" the man, when that's hardly the intent. A lot of the stuff people mention, and certainly a lot of the things Rolla and I (for instance) have brought up are referenced or detailed in the ebook. A better sense of the reality of how the saga came to be can be discerned. And that's not meant to be a jab at George. :)

One suggestion I like to give, though, is to tune out some of the melodrama of the author, who sometimes seems to imply there's some conspiracy on Lucas' part to cloud the truth. Nothing sinister from George that I can see. But looking objectively at his own words from interviews over the years (and things like early drafts), a pretty fascinating picture of how it all came to be is revealed. It's all there in the ebook and well referenced as to sources.

Anyway, to steer things closer to topic, there is a section in the ebook covering AOTC and its development. So certainly worth taking a look at at some point.

RollaFett

03-20-2008, 04:46 PM

You're right about the melodrama aspect. There are several instances where the author calls Lucas an outright liar. While I really respect and appreciate the job Mike Kaminski did to write that book, it's obvious that it is not objective enough throughout much of it.
He does, however, make a point of expressing his respect for Lucas as well on many an occassion, but unfortunately, the 'liar' comments and conspiracy angles kind of overshadow those comments.
Overall, though, I still highly recommend the book.

Fish1941

04-02-2008, 03:48 PM

I watched AotC after TPM, and I must say that it was weak. I don't know how Natalie Portman could turn in such an atrocious performance. I know she wasn't brilliant in TPM, but she just phoned it in all the way through. Also, the fact that the film was shot in digital video, and not on film gave it a cartoony look. The only saving grace for AotC is the last ten minutes.

I never thought I would say this, but TPM is a decent film; AotC on the other, is a sloppy love/mystery/space opera that can't decide what it wants to be. Skip the entire movie up to the arena scene; that's AotC's only reason for existing.

To sum it up: AotC is the weak link of the saga.

I just recently watched AOTC and ROTS. Quite frankly, AOTC came off as the better film to my family and myself. It is certainly better than TPM.

If I were in the director's seat: We did see one such scene in AotC, namely in the elevator, in which there is a teensy bit of rivalry between Obi and Anakin (where he says maybe he's more in tune with her than his Padawan). A few more scenes where there's some direct interaction between Obi-wan and Padme would help. It wouldn't even have to come from Padme. Just a look of admiration from Obi, a smile for an old friend from Padme... could have set Anakin's whistles blowing. It would also make some more of the die-hard stunts he pulls during the film more "bluster" as he tries to show off for her.

I would have carried this over into RotS - again, we do see one preliminary scene, in his vision with Obiwan and Padme as she's dying, but its not enough. Integrating Obi a little deeper into the initial scene (which would change the structure of the scene, I know, but it wasn't convincing anyway) with Padme might have added yet another nudge toward his final actions. (to Anakin's jealous mind, at any rate, even if we know Obi would never betray his friend that way). I might even have given Anakin dialogue regarding her pregnancy, something to the effect of accusing Obi-wan of fathering the children. THAT would have made his motivation to choke the life out of her even more believable. Then Obi could tell him what a fool he was to hurt him, she loved only you, etc.
__________________

Thank God you were never in the director's seat. I really get tired of SW fans who think they could have done a better job than Lucas and end up proving otherwise. Good grief!

Darth Apotheosus

04-02-2008, 06:22 PM

Thank God you were never in the director's seat. I really get tired of SW fans who think they could have done a better job than Lucas and end up proving otherwise. Good grief!

Not to sound mean, but I get tired of the "Sycophants of George Lucas Club" and the whole beeswax.

Actually, on the note of proving FANS could do better, I hear the movies that were re-done (BY FANS) without all of the ridiculous LUCAS inserted frivolity (which FANS, for the most part, hated) are quite well received.

I was just doing it in fun, actually, if you'd read my earlier posts. The reason ESB claims the title of 'my favorite' of the six {sarcasm alert} probably has a lot to do with GL NOT directing it.

lovelucas

04-03-2008, 12:03 AM

Darth Apotheosus

04-03-2008, 12:51 AM

only fair if YOU come up with an .....hold your breath now....original idea. Star Wars belongs only to one person.

Don't remake someone else's idea. If everyone is so much more creative, so much a better writer, so much a better.....fly flicker....then write your own story. An original ...coming from scratch. See if you really have the goods.

Ah, the sycophancy continues...

Wouldn't your statement preclude there ever being an expanded universe created by someone other than GL? Hundreds of writers have built on the ideas presented by him, were welcomed with open arms by him (indeed, you can't write for SW unless you get the invitation) and some have even influenced him to the point where he integrated them into his storylines. Or, do you only go by what GL tells you? That would explain a lot.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that any ideas I presented here would ever have made it onto the screen, but I did it to point out the HUGE holes in the SL that with a few seconds worth of extra footage/consideration would have engendered more credibility in the Anakin's motivations for which he unequivocally aimed but missed almost completely.

Don't get me wrong, I love the movies like I love my own kids - I realize they're not perfect, but I don't try to explain their failures away as not really being flaws, and I try to help them change. I don't subscribe to either school of sycophancy or the pessimist who never offers a perspective other than "it stinks."

Oh, yeah... and I at least would have had Padme say "its nice to see you too" when Yoda mentions he was glad to see her. She's unbearably rude for someone who's supposed to be a diplomat.

Darth Apotheosus

04-03-2008, 12:56 AM

then write your own story. An original ...coming from scratch. See if you really have the goods.

I will say that I have a considerable, non-SW, manuscript of characters influenced by - shock - something other than SW, in a completely original universe (I won't say story because frankly, no stories are completely original anymore, not even GL's good old GFFA) going through final edits.

Where's your manuscript?

RollaFett

04-03-2008, 12:56 PM

Thank God you were never in the director's seat. I really get tired of SW fans who think they could have done a better job than Lucas and end up proving otherwise. Good grief!

only fair if YOU come up with an .....hold your breath now....original idea. Star Wars belongs only to one person.

Don't remake someone else's idea. If everyone is so much more creative, so much a better writer, so much a better.....fly flicker....then write your own story. An original ...coming from scratch. See if you really have the goods.

C'mon, Fish and LL, what do you think you're gonna read in a thread titled: "AOTC: Not Looking So Good Anymore"?

DblDwn

08-21-2008, 01:52 PM

So I'm watching the end of AOTC on Spike last night and I had a thought. When Yoda and Dooku are saber fighting, and Dooku stages his getaway by having Yoda "grab" the beam (or whatever) and stop it from crushing Obi-Wan and Anakin, why doesn't Yoda just fling that thing right into Dooku's ship and f-dash-dash-dash it up real good?

RollaFett

08-21-2008, 03:37 PM

Well, I don't know that he could. He seemed to be struggling with it a good deal. In fact, whenever he had to Force catch or throw something throughout the PT it seemed to be a little difficult for him.

DblDwn

08-21-2008, 04:31 PM

So his Force had osteoporosis and/or sarcopenia then? He was old. I can accept that. :cigar:

Raganork8

08-28-2008, 07:26 PM

C'mon, Fish and LL, what do you think you're gonna read in a thread titled: "AOTC: Not Looking So Good Anymore"?

Yes but Darth A is just being a bit silly.

It's not your story; you could NOT do better; because this is what the story is. Saying that maybe this idea could have worked better or a suggestion is fine. But saying that if you directed it you would expand on an idea that the director put forward in the first place is silly.

It's basically saying "If I made the movie I'd make this part longer; because it suits my needs as an individual audience member"

sureits better for you; but, the story is the story and thats the story there. To say AoTC is weak is fine; but thats something else completely.

lovelucas

08-28-2008, 10:39 PM

Rolla - AotC turned my life around - that's just me. I won't go all personal etc. but let me leave you with this:
1. It reignited the SW flame forever - SW will now always be part of my life every single day I live.
2. Because of this part of the story I am here - at the G.S. and also at TFN and at Celebrations and comic cons.
3. My daughter made a pledge-promise to me that we would see Naboo together even though she has never understood - especially AotC - my cornerstone. All she needed to help me make my quest happen was to know I found my Excalibur and she cried with me as I left Lake Como and the Villa Balbianello. But when she saw AotC (my wonderful son-in-law agreed to the pledge of having every one of my children and their most loved ones, their spouses, see AotC) in a midnight showing in Imax in Detroit (yes I drove the 3 hours to get there by midnight) my beloved daughter's comment was, "but Mom - you hate war, I don't understand why you love this film". But still she made Lake Como/Naboo happen because she saw me seeing AotC... and that's all she needed.
4. I have seen every prequel with my eldest son and his little brother from a social agency that matches up kids with "big brothers" - We have shared something as a mom and son and as a guy sharing something he loves with two people He loves. And that began in 1999 and continues.
5. My grandkids ask me why I love Star Wars so much - and I begin to tell the story. . . . . .

guess that wasn't too personal was it? #1 never met a Gamorrean I didn't like #2 Sebastian begins his SW quest

Jedi Master Harrison

08-29-2008, 07:13 AM

^ Cool! :superhappy:

Likewise, my love of SW was reignited with AOTC. Somehow TPM didn't feel like a SW movie to me on the first (and only) viewing in the cinema. It grew on me once I watched it more. AOTC though, had me back in the cinema 3 times and it just had that - I dunno, special something. :)

Orandhite

08-29-2008, 07:29 AM

^ Yeah, Padme. In a white, tight suit. :wink:

Jedi Master Harrison

08-29-2008, 07:33 AM

That helped for sure! :laughing:

RollaFett

08-29-2008, 03:29 PM

Yes but Darth A is just being a bit silly.

It's not your story; you could NOT do better; because this is what the story is. Saying that maybe this idea could have worked better or a suggestion is fine. But saying that if you directed it you would expand on an idea that the director put forward in the first place is silly.

It's basically saying "If I made the movie I'd make this part longer; because it suits my needs as an individual audience member"

sureits better for you; but, the story is the story and thats the story there. To say AoTC is weak is fine; but thats something else completely.Just to clarify, I never said anything about "If I directed...".

Rolla - AotC turned my life around - that's just me. I won't go all personal etc. but let me leave you with this:
1. It reignited the SW flame forever - SW will now always be part of my life every single day I live.
2. Because of this part of the story I am here - at the G.S. and also at TFN and at Celebrations and comic cons.
3. My daughter made a pledge-promise to me that we would see Naboo together even though she has never understood - especially AotC - my cornerstone. All she needed to help me make my quest happen was to know I found my Excalibur and she cried with me as I left Lake Como and the Villa Balbianello. But when she saw AotC (my wonderful son-in-law agreed to the pledge of having every one of my children and their most loved ones, their spouses, see AotC) in a midnight showing in Imax in Detroit (yes I drove the 3 hours to get there by midnight) my beloved daughter's comment was, "but Mom - you hate war, I don't understand why you love this film". But still she made Lake Como/Naboo happen because she saw me seeing AotC... and that's all she needed.
4. I have seen every prequel with my eldest son and his little brother from a social agency that matches up kids with "big brothers" - We have shared something as a mom and son and as a guy sharing something he loves with two people He loves. And that began in 1999 and continues.
5. My grandkids ask me why I love Star Wars so much - and I begin to tell the story. . . . . .

guess that wasn't too personal was it? #1 never met a Gamorrean I didn't like #2 Sebastian begins his SW questWell then. Without providing too much detail, it certainly explained a lot. You do realize that I was being a bit tongue in cheek with that original comment, right?
That said, we've butted heads numerous times about various aspects of these films, but one thing I always liked and respected about you is your unwavering love of them. However, I never had any idea just how personal they are to you. That's pretty special. It doesn't mean I won't continue to occassionally butt heads with you over certain aspects, just keep in mind that it's never personal with me. I do respect you. :cheers:

Raganork8

08-29-2008, 04:03 PM

Just to clarify, I never said anything about "If I directed...".

Well then. Without providing too much detail, it certainly explained a lot. You do realize that I was being a bit tongue in cheek with that original comment, right?
That said, we've butted heads numerous times about various aspects of these films, but one thing I always liked and respected about you is your unwavering love of them. However, I never had any idea just how personal they are to you. That's pretty special. It doesn't mean I won't continue to occassionally butt heads with you over certain aspects, just keep in mind that it's never personal with me. I do respect you. :cheers:

I know you wouldn't

we'd have to beat you down if you did...

borgmatrix

08-29-2008, 04:03 PM

It's not your story; you could NOT do better; because this is what the story is.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I can't disagree more strongly. I think I could plot out and write a better PT. Obviously, I acknowledge that's easy given that I can draw upon what Lucas has already done with the PT. But the issue is that the PT is not perfect, even by Lucas' admission. And if its not perfect, then yeah, of course it could be made better whether by Lucas himself or by someone else.

Lucas wanted to make the movies the way he did. But he's acknowledged that there might have been better ways or others who could have done it better. He just wasn't going to, for instance, bring in someone else, because he wanted to do them himself. And he did. And all props to him for that.

But of course these movies could have been done better. A lot of movies can be. And that's not to take away from what he has done, because I loved the PT and there's a hell of a lot more positive things that I see than negative.

RollaFett

08-29-2008, 04:20 PM

In addition, let's be real for a second. The story has constantly evolved over the years. Even when we think we know the story, Lucas hasn't hesitated to go back and change things to his liking at that moment. So to say, "this is what the story is" is a tad naive, don't you think?

Jedi Master Elad Kenobi

09-03-2008, 09:21 PM

the PT is not perfect, even by Lucas' admission.

Niether is life Dude. Roll with it. Or Rolla lol:wink:

borgmatrix

09-03-2008, 10:04 PM

Niether is life Dude. Roll with it.
Not sure why you're directing that toward me. I wasn't complaining about it and I'm hardly broken up about a lack of perfection. My point was that since the trilogy isn't perfect, of course it can be improved upon (since others were acting like its some kind of perfect work and blasphemy to suggest someone could do better).

So I'm certainly "rolling" with it as I've loved the PT and will continue to.

SoldSoul77

09-12-2008, 08:21 PM

The only scenes I like were the parts when all the Jedi are fighting in the Arena with the droids and Yoda comes in with the Clones. Otherwise the rest of the movie was Okay. It really focused on Padme and Anakin's love for each other.

P-Ray

09-13-2008, 01:12 AM

The only scenes I like were the parts when all the Jedi are fighting in the Arena with the droids and Yoda comes in with the Clones. It really focused on Padme and Anakin's love for each other.
According to Lucas, that's what he intended for it to do!

SoldSoul77

09-13-2008, 11:01 AM

Ya I guess so. :)

STar war spUNK

09-14-2008, 03:08 AM

According to Lucas, that's what he intended for it to do!

quite possibly (as impossible as this sounds) the worst decision of his movie making career. i've been so vocal about my dislike for the padme/anakin "romance". the only watchable parts are the obi-wan scenes. um... yeah that's about it.

P-Ray

09-14-2008, 08:43 AM

quite possibly (as impossible as this sounds) the worst decision of his movie making career. i've been so vocal about my dislike for the padme/anakin "romance". the only watchable parts are the obi-wan scenes. um... yeah that's about it.
Do you mean his decision to even show the Anakin/Padme romance or how it turned out?

He had to show it for story purposes!

Tovor

09-14-2008, 09:48 PM

I don't think Punk liked Natalie Portman. Rumor has it she wished that Avril Lavign (sp?) had played the part. That story may be unfounded though, the jury is still out on that. :ohwell:

STar war spUNK

09-14-2008, 11:55 PM

lolz! very funny!! if that were the case, all my star wars stuff would have been burned.

what i mean is the way that the script was written was just dreadful. the actors who played them did not do a very convincing job. mix those two together and you get attack of the clones aka my least favorite star wars.

Tovor

09-15-2008, 01:58 AM

I see. So the lame romance ruined the whole film for you? Did you really dislike the entire film, or just the Anakin/Padme scenes?

Raganork8

09-24-2008, 11:17 AM

The romance didn't help; especially because it felt unnatural. It didn't feel Star Wars like and I never really felt like it was SO forbidden that they were in love. Considering who Anakin was; I doubt he would have been kicked out of the Order and If he was I didn't see why that was THAT bad.

what frustrated me the most about AotC was that there was seemingly a better story in there that was being pushed aside to make room for some of the love story.

"I want to know Who's trying to kill me...I believe it's Count Dooku"

"As you know Count Dooku was once a Jedi...murder is not in his character"

Those lines really set up what I thought the story was going to focus on. The fact that Dooku comes into the story much later seems really badly conceived. Even if he was introduced to be a slimy character who may or may not have been the villain would have made his presence more interesting and driving the movie forward.

The movie back burners the idea that Dooku is Sidious "go-to" guy. Everything that's about to happen from the Clone Army to the Separation of the Republic has been physically brought about by Count Dooku; the "Mystery" element of the movie that involves Obi-Wan is severely circumcised without the idea of Dooku being a suspect and cutting to the Anakin/Padme love story for so long.

And While I understand that was for story purposes (which really come to life in RotS) it didn't necessarily have to be the complete focus of the film. a lot of the "lore" that the OT built was lost when the Jedi order is circumvented when we don't see them and focus on one half Jedi and his crush. Suddenly Star Wars felt SMALL out of all things.

Not to mention the direction is somewhat bad; there's nothing captivating with how the movie is shot; I had this same complaint with Iron Man. It's shot blandly and without creativeness. Sure there are one or two moments that seem to be imaginative: Anakin and Padme discussing his leaving whilst only showing Shadows; the first full Scene with Dooku. But other than that the direction seems to be flat at most.

I can really understand the complaints with AotC and mostly it's FOCUS; the Love story is VERY important; but, it seemed to sprout from seemingly nowhere. For the life of me I still don't know what Anakin sees in Padme or Vice Versa. Perhaps some conflict would have brought that out...Conflict brought about by the collapse of the Republic?

I don't know; I just know that AotC felt unnatural.