What's The Point Of ROTJ?

[Raganork8]

I've been thinking about this for some time.

While I love ROTJ and I really like the whole deal, I don't understand the plot with the Dark and Lightside.

Whilst Luke is being "tempted" by Palpatine, the Rebels are about to destroy the Death Star.

What difference would it have made had Anakin not Destroyed Palpatine; the Death Star was going to be destroyed anyway.

I know that it's nice and brought Balance to the force; but with the last of the Jedi and Sith destroyed wouldn't everything turn out very similar?

[Lord Tesla]

What difference would it have made had Anakin not Destroyed Palpatine; the Death Star was going to be destroyed anyway.

But would the Sith and Luke have been on it? If memory serves, Palpy's throne room was at the top of a tower, from which it simply have detached and flown away. Smaller things--X-wings, The Millennium Falcon--were known to have sufficient room for propulsion systems and even hyperdrives.

Remember, the Death Star was only a "technological terror" and insignificant next to the power of the Force...

I know that it's nice and brought Balance to the force; but with the last of the Jedi and Sith destroyed wouldn't everything turn out very similar?

Maybe not. Probably not, I think.

What does balancing the Force really do? What happens as a consequence of it not being balanced? Evil might still have had a field day in the galaxy without Palpatine and Vader, had the Force gone on unbalanced, even without the Death Star. Things might even have been worse: something really nasty might have manifested itself out of the Force.

And that might have been one reason for Palpatine's supreme confidence, a belief that the dark side would continue to dominate, to drive galactic events, even without him and his apprentices, if Anakin could be kept from putting the Force back in balance.

[Javen]

What was the point? To put millions of dollars into Uncle George's pocket.:nahnah:

[Talcy]

The point? Because we, the audience, care about Luke now. He's just found out also that he has a sister. We don't really want to see him killed when the Death Star goes up. He's the main character and we've been with him through it all and so we don't want to see him die, even though he is perfectly prepared to do so as a Jedi Knight.

Also, while it might not be canon (who knows), in the novelisation of Jedi, it indicates that the Emperor has some kind of hold or control over his pilots, through the Force. Once he's gone, they become less of a threat to the Rebel fleet. But if Palpatine survived, the Imperial fleet might have wiped out the Rebels. Bearing in mind that this is from the novel and not the movie and is only a mild possibility.

[Solo]

Hey, why are you all focused at the end of the film?
Haven't you ever wondered, what would happen to Han Solo at the end of the ESB? Poor guy was frozen in carbonite.
What would become of Lando? He lost his Cloud City, don't you remember?
Would Leia ever meet her lover again?
What will happen to the Emperor?
What will happen to Luke's hand?
Will Luke be able to handle the truth about his father?
Will Luke finish his training?
Will Luke choose the dark side?

In the end, ROTJ answered many many question, didn't it? In my opinion it was the best of the whole saga, but that is my opinion only.

[Raganork8]

I know that it was to tie up loose ends, I think I should rephrase this.


My Main concern was about the end.

The beginning is great and one of the best; but, the end seems to be more or less overshadowed.

The death Star was going to be destroyed anyhow. Luke didn't do anything to destroy the shield generator after he surrendered himself.

Telsa You suggested that maybe the throne room would spring off like a escape pod. If thats true they still would have been destroyed in the explosion.

I understand bringing balance to Anakin and completing the Father/Son Story; but, with the last of the Sith and the Last of the Jedi dead.

what now?

[lovelucas]

last of the Jedi? Luke is still with us......

and Tesla -
a belief that the dark side would continue to dominate, to drive galactic events, even without him and his apprentices, if Anakin could be kept from putting the Force back in balance.

interesting take on a possibility Palpatine's m.o. and total committment to what he believes in...

[Raganork8]

last of the Jedi? Luke is still with us......

and Tesla -
a belief that the dark side would continue to dominate, to drive galactic events, even without him and his apprentices, if Anakin could be kept from putting the Force back in balance.

interesting take on a possibility Palpatine's m.o. and total committment to what he believes in...

No, Luke would have been dead too; blown up in the Death Star...

[Sluggo]

Also, while it might not be canon (who knows), in the novelisation of Jedi, it indicates that the Emperor has some kind of hold or control over his pilots, through the Force. Once he's gone, they become less of a threat to the Rebel fleet. But if Palpatine survived, the Imperial fleet might have wiped out the Rebels. Bearing in mind that this is from the novel and not the movie and is only a mild possibility.

This isn't in the novelization of Jedi. It is something Timothy Zahn made up in his EU novels.

And the point of the end of the movie is to wrap things up in a hurry. Lucas had been setting things up in the first two movies for a 9 film trilogy. By the time it came to write Jedi, he was sick of the movies and the havoc they were putting on his personal life so he had to tie up all the loose ends in a hurry.

[RollaFett]

^ Yeah, there's that too.

But from a story standpoint, I used to think like Raganork. I was in a discussion with somebody else long ago about this very issue, and was presented with the following logical point: If Luke had enough time after the throne room fight to drag Vader to the hanger bay, remove his mask, have a big emotional scene, then why wouldn't the Emperor and Vader have enough time to escape had things in the throne room unfolded differently?

[Raganork8]

Because They were fighting, Assume the fight took much longer and Luke either did succumb to the Dark Side or didn't but didn't have that big blow up.


Neither Vader the Emp or Luke Were aware of the Rebels penetrating the shield until the Station was about to detonate. I'm sure Luke would have tried to hold off the both of them and sacrifice his life to that the Two Sith would have been destroyed.

The Way I see it the Sith's Would have died Anyway; so Luke's story is more personal than having to do with the actual fate of Galaxy...

right?:giveup:

[Sluggo]

Luke was at the rebel briefing. He knew about the plan.

And I'm sure all three could sense something was happening.

[Raganork8]

Even with all that was happening?

Palpatine Failed to Sense Vader's Return to the light side.
Luke knew the plan; but, Palpatine did to and put a big obstacle in front of them. He wasn't sure if it was going to work or not.

Even if Luke Knew, For the greater good he probably would have tried to Hold Palpatine and Vader in the Station just to ensure they were killed.

[RollaFett]

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm merely providing a hypothetical to counter your original point.
IF Luke were to have been killed by the Emperor, which also means that Vader doesn't turn, then it would seem that they would've had enough time get the hell out of dodge, just as Luke had.

[Raganork8]

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm merely providing a hypothetical to counter your original point.
IF Luke were to have been killed by the Emperor, which also means that Vader doesn't turn, then it would seem that they would've had enough time get the hell out of dodge, just as Luke had.


Oh yes, I see what you mean, I suppose thats true, though no one seemed to have noticed Luke Dragging Vader down the hall way. they seemed to be in such disorder (presumably because of the last Death Star event) no one seemed to want to help.

How fast can Palpatine walk?

That doesn't matter I'm nit picking now.

[Solo]

Luke was at the rebel briefing. He knew about the plan.

And I'm sure all three could sense something was happening.

Yes, also you may remember the scene when they were all in the Shuttle Tydirium, Luke said;

"I shouldn't have come with you. I'm endangering the mission."

His words may not be exacty these, but Luke sensed something. He may not have sensed the whole plan, but Luke knew that Emperor had another card in his sleeve.

[Raganork8]

He was Sensing Vader; and in return Vader's sensing of him.

He felt he was endangering the mission by having the force play a make shift radar for Vader to find the rebels and undo their plan; hence the reason why he turned himself in to Vader on and told the, not convincing, lie that he was the only Rebel on the moon.

[VADERGOTH]

return of the jedi is the most important one for a conclusion to anakins story the whole title says it all (could be interpreted as the return of the jedi in anakin) from the moment anakin became vader he was going to kill the emporor at some point .Its the sith way aprentice kills master but that was there down fall only haveing two at a time enabled them to be destroyed anakin was allways going to destroy the sith it was his destiny and lets not forget if the ewoks hadnt gotten involved the death star would have been untouchable:zap:

[VADERGOTH]

ive noticed alot of people saying how luke must of sensed vader or sensed palpatines plans hellooooooooooooooooo in one of the prequals (i cant remember which one ) mace windu and yoda have a conversation regarding the fact that they cannot see what the dark side is doing and were considering telling the senate that there ability to see throgh the force had diminished this is mace windu and yoda im pretty sure that fluke skywalker couldnt see what was going on he felt his father yes and at that point he realized that vader had felt him hense why vader asked where is that suttle going .

technically vader allowed the rebals to land on endor because when admiral piett asks if he should hold them vader replys no i will deal with them my self so he knew what was going on

[Kam Solusar]

Fluke Skywalker. That's oh-so-witty.

[Raganork8]

ive noticed alot of people saying how luke must of sensed vader or sensed palpatines plans hellooooooooooooooooo in one of the prequals (i cant remember which one ) mace windu and yoda have a conversation regarding the fact that they cannot see what the dark side is doing and were considering telling the senate that there ability to see throgh the force had diminished this is mace windu and yoda im pretty sure that fluke skywalker couldnt see what was going on he felt his father yes and at that point he realized that vader had felt him hense why vader asked where is that suttle going .

technically vader allowed the rebals to land on endor because when admiral piett asks if he should hold them vader replys no i will deal with them my self so he knew what was going on


dude, He says "Vader's on the ship...I'm endangering the mission; I shouldn't have come"

He sensed Vader was on the ship, Just like anakin sensed Dooku on Greivous' Ship.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

What's the point of ROTJ? Entertainment! :wink: :bye:

[Raganork8]

and a killer soundtrack!

[Darth Massacrus]

The point of ROTJ (for me at least) is to briefly showcase the Imperial Dignitaries (and to complete the saga, of course)

[Darill Cyllem]

and a killer soundtrack!
Yes, indeed!

I always liked the Jabba's Palace and Dune Sea battle scene at the start of ROTJ - exciting stuff!

And some might also say the point is for Princess Leia to finally get to show off her curves in something that's not shapeless and white.
:lol:

The Point is also that the Bad Guys lose.... :nahnah:

[Solo]

Don't forget. We meet mighty Ewoks in ROTJ.:nahnah:

[Raganork8]

and to introduce that annoying sidekick of Jabba

AND

to ambiguously "kill?" Boba Fett

[RollaFett]

And some might also say the point is for Princess Leia to finally get to show off her curves in something that's not shapeless and white.
:lol:



I like the way you think.

[Darth Nameless]

dont forget that leia finds out she is lukes sister...and the slave outfit! :wink:

[Orandhite]

Ewoks are the only point to RoTJ. They become the new dominating force in the galaxy to fill the void left by the destruction of the Empire.

[Mothman]

Oh yes, I see what you mean, I suppose thats true, though no one seemed to have noticed Luke Dragging Vader down the hall way. they seemed to be in such disorder (presumably because of the last Death Star event) no one seemed to want to help.

How fast can Palpatine walk?

That doesn't matter I'm nit picking now.


How fast can Grandpa Palpatine walk? IMO, if needed, he could have sprinted across the Death Star anytime he wanted to. Remember how tired old Yoda suddenly jumped into cartoon action speed in his duel with Mr. Dooku in AOTC? Palpy would have done the same thing, if he needed to.




:xmas:

[Saranac]

The point of ROTJ is obvious: the almighty $

It can all be seen in the first script version i.e. wookies instead of ewoks, Lando getting killed, Boba fett surviving the sarlacc, and of course the holy grail of lost star wars trivia; Emperor Palpy getting violated by Vader's sabre. This of course was removed for posterity very late in filming. They say the only film copy of it exists completely sealed in a tomb beneath Skywalker Ranch/Manor.

[Mothman]

.....and of course the holy grail of lost star wars trivia; Emperor Palpy getting violated by Vader's sabre. This of course was removed for posterity very late in filming. They say the only film copy of it exists completely sealed in a tomb beneath Skywalker Ranch/Manor.

:vaderxmas: Wowsers! I hadn't heard that one before. That would have been cool! And it makes a little more sense than a guy killing the most powerful Sith Lord in recent memory just by picking him up and throwing him down a hole. You'd think that Grandpa Palpy would have been powerful enough to stop that.:sidxmas:




:xmas:

[Darth Massacrus]

The point of ROTJ is obvious: the almighty $

It can all be seen in the first script version i.e. wookies instead of ewoks, Lando getting killed, Boba fett surviving the sarlacc, and of course the holy grail of lost star wars trivia; Emperor Palpy getting violated by Vader's sabre. This of course was removed for posterity very late in filming. They say the only film copy of it exists completely sealed in a tomb beneath Skywalker Ranch/Manor.

Where did you hear that about Palpatine getting sabered?

[RollaFett]

Yeah, that's the first I've ever heard of it. what's your source there, Saranac?

[Darth Nameless]

now that im thinking of it...it was pretty lame of him to just throw him over the railing...it should have been a fight of some sort...a duel perhaps

[Lord Tesla]

That would have been cool! And it makes a little more sense than a guy killing the most powerful Sith Lord in recent memory just by picking him up and throwing him down a hole. You'd think that Grandpa Palpy would have been powerful enough to stop that.:sidxmas:

Are you sure heaving Palpatine over the side was what Anakin did to destroy Darth Sidious? Or...was that simply a means of making sure that Luke was far enough away from Palpatine when the end came for Luke to survive the Force being unleashed by Anakin against Palpatine? :vaderxmas:

[Mothman]

Are you sure heaving Palpatine over the side was what Anakin did to destroy Darth Sidious? Or...was that simply a means of making sure that Luke was far enough away from Palpatine when the end came for Luke to survive the Force being unleashed by Anakin against Palpatine? :vaderxmas:

I am not an EU person, so I only base my opinions on what I see in the movies. It seems to me that Mr. Palpatine :sidxmas: sorta blew up with a big rush of blue energy stuff as he went down the big hole in the middle of his tower. IMO, he would be dead, especially after the entire Death Star II blew up a short time later.

(BTW... I wonder if that tower design was OSHA-approved? Seems kinda dangerous to me. A Sith Lord could just be casually walking near there and then innocently trip and fall down the big hole. All those years of plotting to take over the galaxy and then that happens. Almost as stupid as being killed while you sleep.)




:xmas:

[RollaFett]

(BTW... I wonder if that tower design was OSHA-approved?



LOL!!!

[Lord Tesla]

I am not an EU person, so I only base my opinions on what I see in the movies. It seems to me that Mr. Palpatine :sidxmas: sorta blew up with a big rush of blue energy stuff as he went down the big hole in the middle of his tower. IMO, he would be dead, especially after the entire Death Star II blew up a short time later.

1. I consider the EU as more or less apocryphal material, myself, so I am posing the question based only on what's on screen.

2. Yes, Palpatine did blow up, but what made him blow up?

3. Whether or not he would have died in the explosion would have depended on whether he had been present. Absent Vader's turn, and whatever he did to destroy Palpatine, I suspect he would not have done a Tarkin.

(BTW... I wonder if that tower design was OSHA-approved? Seems kinda dangerous to me. A Sith Lord could just be casually walking near there and then innocently trip and fall down the big hole. All those years of plotting to take over the galaxy and then that happens. Almost as stupid as being killed while you sleep.)

Considering that under Palpatine OSHA was staffed by the 501st, and headed up by Darth Vader, I'm quite sure it was approved. :vaderxmas:

[Darill Cyllem]

I am not an EU person, so I only base my opinions on what I see in the movies. It seems to me that Mr. Palpatine :sidxmas: sorta blew up with a big rush of blue energy stuff as he went down the big hole in the middle of his tower. IMO, he would be dead, especially after the entire Death Star II blew up a short time later.
To me the distinction Tesla made, and I'm sure he will correct me if i misinterpret him, was Vader's intention or priority. Was killing Palpatine Vader's priority with tossing Palpatine over the bridge? Or was it expediently getting Palpatine far away from Luke?

In either case, I think Vader clearly meant harm to Palpatine, but i still was intrigued by this (perceived) distinction of Tesla's.

[Lord Tesla]

To me the distinction Tesla made, and I'm sure he will correct me if i misinterpret him, was Vader's intention or priority. Was killing Palpatine Vader's priority with tossing Palpatine over the bridge? Or was it expediently getting Palpatine far away from Luke?

Your insight serves you well.

In either case, I think Vader clearly meant harm to Palpatine, but i still was intrigued by this (perceived) distinction of Tesla's.


Intrigued? I'm flattered.

No doubt, Vader meant to make an end of Palpatine at that time. But tossing him over the rail seemed both too easy, and too simple--too obvious. Palpatine appeared to put up no resistance. The Force "lightning" was arcing through Vader, but it didn't seem coherently directed, as was the case with Luke. There must have been something more happening than met the eye. My belief is that the final struggle took place using the Force, and on a level not readily perceived directly by the viewer. The Emperor was overthrown (so to speak) purely to keep Luke out of the resulting blast zone.

[Orandhite]

The way that Vader picks Palps up must have given him an extreme wedgie, and being an all powerful Sith lord or not, that is going to take you by surprise.

[Mothman]

The way that Vader picks Palps up must have given him an extreme wedgie.....

Now there's a path to the dark side!! :wink:





:xmas:

[Lord Tesla]

The way that Vader picks Palps up must have given him an extreme wedgie, and being an all powerful Sith lord or not, that is going to take you by surprise.

Unless, of course, Palpatine was going commando under the Sith robes...

[RollaFett]

Ewwwwww!!!


Another thought about this is that Palpatine is in fact, as frail as he appears. He obviously didn't forsee Vader lifting him over his head, so he's caught by surprise. Plus, he's not in a ideal offensive position. You factor in his frailty, and he's in trouble big time even if Vader isn't doing something unseen with the Force.

[borgmatrix]

My belief is that the final struggle took place using the Force, and on a level not readily perceived directly by the viewer.
I think you're giving Lucas too much credit. I think it was meant to be as simple as it looks, that Vader just picked him up, carried him over to the rail and tossed him over. Like Rolla said, I think the reason for the incoherently directed lightening was simply that Sidious was taken by surprise and not in "ideal offensive position" to properly target Vader.

And yeah, Vader's primary motivation would be to get Sids away from Luke. But to do that, he'd obviously have to kill him. I'm sure Vader knew he wasn't strong enough for a sustained battle with Sids. He needed to take him down quickly and permanently.

[Lord Tesla]

Ewwwwww!!!


Another thought about this is that Palpatine is in fact, as frail as he appears. He obviously didn't forsee Vader lifting him over his head, so he's caught by surprise. Plus, he's not in a ideal offensive position. You factor in his frailty, and he's in trouble big time even if Vader isn't doing something unseen with the Force.

I would resist any temptation to attribute significant physical frailty to Palpatine. He was considerably less fragile-seeming in the throneroom than he had been during his arrival review. And the Force was with him...

[Lord Tesla]

I think you're giving Lucas too much credit. I think it was meant to be as simple as it looks, that Vader just picked him up, carried him over to the rail and tossed him over. Like Rolla said, I think the reason for the incoherently directed lightening was simply that Sidious was taken by surprise and not in "ideal offensive position" to properly target Vader.

Crediting Lucas doesn't enter into it. It's a matter of looking at what's on the screen, and finding a reasonable hypothesis. I don't for a minute think Lucas intended us to think that there was more going on than meets the eye (of course, he might have: short of reading his mind, I know of no way to be certain), but I do think the events require more explanation than is available on the surface.

It's in the nature of what the Baker Street Irregulars have done for generations with the Holmes Canon: taken it apart and analyzed it bit by bit, for what sense it makes intrinsically, irrespective of what Conan Doyle may have thought or written about it, or intended, solving or explaining the inconsistencies and anomalies without reference to such causes as Conan Doyle's inattention to detail, or changed attitude toward one aspect or another of the stories.

And yeah, Vader's primary motivation would be to get Sids away from Luke. But to do that, he'd obviously have to kill him. I'm sure Vader knew he wasn't strong enough for a sustained battle with Sids. He needed to take him down quickly and permanently.

I don't disagree with any of these statements save one: that Vader wasn't strong enough to confront Palpatine in battle. I simply find it more satisfactory that he used the Force to end the Emperor, and that the heave-ho was necessary only as a means to protect Luke from the effects. That it was Vader, and nothing that he encountered in the shaft, that caused Palpatine to explode in a blue flash.

[Orandhite]

I like your idea LT, of Vader using the Force in some way to disguise his attack or to blind Palpsy. From what we know now about how powerful Palps was, it seems a little pathetic that his downfall was so...simple.

However (and this is not aimed at LT in particular, just as part of the discussion), it seems that maybe, because the Star Wars universe has grown so much since 1983 and there is far more information out there now, that this discussion, should it have taken place at the time of the release of the movie, would maybe not have been relevant.

What I mean is that when you first saw RoTJ did you think that the Emperor was as powerful as you do now? I don't think I did - I thought he was powerful sure, but in the OT movies, Jedi and Sith were not depicted as being as powerful as we think of them now IMO. So, if one did not think Grandpappy Palpsy was as powerful, would the scene have resulted in so much discussion?

I would say nay, as when I watched the movies before going to see TPM and the rest of the PT it just seemed to me that the Emperor was focusing on Luke and Vader just managed to take him by surprise. Now, from the information available now, that seems unlikely, but at the time it seemed probable toe me.

However...I've just thought about Palps' line about everything that has happened has done so due to my design - I always thought he was just being an arrogant villain but again, with more information and the back story of the PT that line holds a completely different meaning now than it did before the PT.

Anyway, I'm not really sure what my point is now! :D I think it was something along the lines of LT's explanation making sense now that there is more information available, but looking at the movie from "a certain point of view" could result in the opinion that he Vader just took Palps by surprise.

I've just re-read my post and I just thought it was a good idea to say that I don't disagree with either point of view, in fact, I like them both - it's what makes Star Wars discussions so much fun as there is plenty of room for different opinions and interpretations. :thumbs-up:

[RollaFett]

Gee, thanks. I love it when people are so clear. Now go find a fence to sit on! :wink:

[RollaFett]

I would resist any temptation to attribute significant physical frailty to Palpatine. He was considerably less fragile-seeming in the throneroom than he had been during his arrival review. And the Force was with him...

Nah, I still think he was a frail old man. I didn't notice anything in the film to indicate otherwise. And yes, I know about Dooku and Yoda in the PT jumping all over the place, but I really feel as though at that point in his life, he was weak and frail physically.

[Orandhite]

Gee, thanks. I love it when people are so clear. Now go find a fence to sit on! :wink:

:nahnah: