Did Vader Know of Obi-Wan's Sacrifice?

[Kommandant Felix]

I was watching A New Hope the other day, and I caught the scene where Vader and Tarkin were speaking on Obi-Wan's presence on the Death Star.

In fact the dialogue goes with Tarkin saying that, "If you're right, he must not be allowed to escape." Then Vader comments: "Escape is not his plan. I must face him. Alone."

What does this mean? Did it mean that Vader knew that Obi-Wan was going to sacrifice himself to allow the ship to escape? Or possibly did he think that Obi-Wan was back to finish the fight they started? I'm not sure what the case of this line meant.

[Raganork8]

Hey Felix, we've been running into each other a lot these days...


I don't think he knew of what Obi Wan was doing, in terms of being one with the force. Judging from his reaction right after, of stepping on the robe. Kind of a puzzled moment there.

Then again in TESB he warns Luke "not to be destroyed like Obi Wan"

I think Vader is clueless about this power until he actually dies.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Agreed. I think that the 'escape is not his plan' line refers to Obi-Wan attempting to finish Vader off.

[Raganork8]

Man you and I have being agreeing a lot lately JMH

[Kam Solusar]

I've always read that line to be Vader's ego telling him that the only reason why Obi-Wan showed up was to face Vader.

[bruciarsi]

hmmm i always thought along the same line as you Kam Solusar. However that was before the new movies. Now i see it simply as vadar thinking obi-wan was there to finish the job.

[thepepgal]

I always thought it was an indication that Obi Wan was going to find Vader. I was never sure whether this meant to fight him or talk him back to the light side or for Obi Wan to sacrifrice himself.

If you look at in the context now that Ep 3 has been released, it surely meant to duel again. I don't think Obi Wan ever intended to kill him. As the discussion with Yoda proved Obi Wan was never willing to kill Vader since he felt they were like brothers. Brothers may fall out over things and fight but they rarely kill each other.

Maybe Padme saying she still felt good in Vader meant Obi Wan had to check if this was true even though it was 19 years later.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ As Obi-Wan would say - "possibly".

[Solo]

I've always read that line to be Vader's ego telling him that the only reason why Obi-Wan showed up was to face Vader.

I agree. Vader was planning to finish what they started on Mustafar.

[Lord Tesla]

What does this mean? Did it mean that Vader knew that Obi-Wan was going to sacrifice himself to allow the ship to escape? Or possibly did he think that Obi-Wan was back to finish the fight they started? I'm not sure what the case of this line meant.

It meant that Vader understood Obi-Wan's objective to be something other than a simple escape.

Two likely interpretations seem to present themselves: 1) Obi-Wan was there to finish what he had begun on Mustafar; 2) Obi-Wan was there to sabotage the station. In either case, each being a virtually certain suicide mission, escape can't have figured as a likelihood, such that Vader could easily have inferred, from either intuition, that an escape didn't form part of his former master's plan.

Which causes me to wonder just what Obi-Wan's plan was. Clearly he knew he wasn't coming back, otherwise no need to tell Luke about diverging destinies and the Force being with him always as he set out ostensibly to deactivate a tractor beam. Yet, there's no indication he was up to more serious mischief. Indeed, he was headed back toward the hangar where the Millennium Falcon rested, when he came upon Vader, already in position.

[Coyote850]

One must also remember Anakin/Vaders ego. I believe to him the "only" reason Ben could possibly be on board the Death Star was to kill Vader.

[Lord Tesla]

I always thought it was an indication that Obi Wan was going to find Vader. I was never sure whether this meant to fight him or talk him back to the light side or for Obi Wan to sacrifrice himself.[]

[quote=thepepgal;930057] If you look at in the context now that Ep 3 has been released, it surely meant to duel again. I don't think Obi Wan ever intended to kill him. As the discussion with Yoda proved Obi Wan was never willing to kill Vader since he felt they were like brothers. Brothers may fall out over things and fight but they rarely kill each other.

Luke: I can't kill my own father.

Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope.

(On Dagobah, ROTJ)

Sounds like he intended Vader's death, at any hands he could arrange. Depended on it as the only solution to the whole defeating-the-emperor problem, in fact.

Maybe Padme saying she still felt good in Vader meant Obi Wan had to check if this was true even though it was 19 years later.


That seems unlikely. Anakin was always conflicted. And in Anakin-as-Vader there always remained "good" in conflict with the...darker things. But Obi-Wan never seemed to have shown any signs of sensing it, even at Mustafar. On the Death Star, he was into the whole "Only a master of evil, Darth," rigmarole. Fluke, on the other hand, with minimal training and virtually zero experience, was able to perceive Anakin's conflict, in Cloud City, in the heat of battle. Which says something about Obi-Wan...

[Lord Tesla]

I've always read that line to be Vader's ego telling him that the only reason why Obi-Wan showed up was to face Vader.

If there was ego involved, I suggest that it was manifest in assuming only he, Vader, could deal successfully with Kenobi. There's no indication that Vader believed Obi-Wan specifically was seeking him out now. I would think that an outsized Vaderian ego would have assumed Kenobi wouldn't dare show his face, if it figured at all. Which would have manifested itself as surprise when Kenobi did indeed turn up. Did Vader show any signs of surprise?

Looking at what he said, this seems to me to be what he meant:

Escape is not his plan: Obi-Wan is here, he means us no good, but his leaving is not something we have to worry about.

I must face him alone: Only I have the Force, and only an opponent with the Force as his ally can deal with him.

No doubt there was some score-settling in mind, too, but he didn't say anything ostensibly about that until he was face to face with Kenobi.

[Lord Tesla]

One must also remember Anakin/Vaders ego. I believe to him the "only" reason Ben could possibly be on board the Death Star was to kill Vader.

Not sabotage, not rescue of a high value member of the Rebellion?

Of course, Vader did consider the Death Star a glorified tinkertoy, a "technological terror", so maybe he didn't consider sabotage worth Kenobi's efforts...

[Raganork8]

Another great observation Telsa.


I've always taken this as, Obi wan planned to get the tractor beam off; but, assumed He'd come across Vader at some point. the fact that he got so close to the Falcon is coincidental. I think Obi wan knew he could better serve the force and Luke by becoming one with the force.

Consider if Obi Wan had survived, would Luke have had the time to actually train? or the drive? Obi Wan's death serves as a catalyst for Luke's training later on. Clearly he's done something between ANH and ESB.

so at some point Obi Wan must have assumed that "dying" would be the best thing.
Maybe he saw what happened to Anakin when his mom and Padme died and figured that it would be an ample force to thrust Luke in being determined enough to become the jedi he needed to be.


and in response to your comments about Obi Wan wanting to KILL Darth Vader and sensing good in him.

I always took it as he did feel that; but, couldn't allow Luke to know. The little glimmer of Good in him, was not enough to hold on to. It would only provide False hope for Luke and maybe weaken him in his battle against the sith lord.

Had Obi Wan kept saying "yes theres good in him" Luke may have been less likely to get as upset as he did to the Leia comment and not put in place the events that followed.

[Raganork8]

Not sabotage, not rescue of a high value member of the Rebellion?

Of course, Vader did consider the Death Star a glorified tinkertoy, a "technological terror", so maybe he didn't consider sabotage worth Kenobi's efforts...


I think at that point it was beyond what was to happen to the Death Star; but, Rather finishing what was left of the Mustufar battle.

So I somewhat agree with the Ego idea, though not 100%

[Jedi Master Harrison]

That seems unlikely. Anakin was always conflicted. And in Anakin-as-Vader there always remained "good" in conflict with the...darker things. But Obi-Wan never seemed to have shown any signs of sensing it, even at Mustafar. On the Death Star, he was into the whole "Only a master of evil, Darth," rigmarole. Fluke, on the other hand, with minimal training and virtually zero experience, was able to perceive Anakin's conflict, in Cloud City, in the heat of battle. Which says something about Obi-Wan...

I think it says more about the strength of the Father and Son bond than anything else...........the force can only have substantially increased this.

Sidious was a master at hiding his force abilities, presumably this would be something he would teach Vader. Sith would not want Jedi to be able to sense their feelings. I believe only Luke would be able to do this because of the natural bond.

[Kam Solusar]

If there was ego involved, I suggest that it was manifest in assuming only he, Vader, could deal successfully with Kenobi. There's no indication that Vader believed Obi-Wan specifically was seeking him out now. I would think that an outsized Vaderian ego would have assumed Kenobi wouldn't dare show his face, if it figured at all. Which would have manifested itself as surprise when Kenobi did indeed turn up. Did Vader show any signs of surprise?

Looking at what he said, this seems to me to be what he meant:

Escape is not his plan: Obi-Wan is here, he means us no good, but his leaving is not something we have to worry about.

I must face him alone: Only I have the Force, and only an opponent with the Force as his ally can deal with him.

No doubt there was some score-settling in mind, too, but he didn't say anything ostensibly about that until he was face to face with Kenobi.

I interpret it quite different. I think he's almost been expecting Obi-Wan to show himself at some point, maybe even as a last ditch effort before he dies. I think that Vader's ego tells him that the only reason he'd even show his face would be to try and take him down again. Remember, his ego doesn't always have to be "I'm super awesome." It's also what makes him so selfish, which is probably the predominant trait that burns Anakin (no pun intended). It's always about what he wants, you know?

[lovelucas]

I love that look Sir Alec/Obi Wan gave Vader before he physcially acknowledged to Vader he was not going to fight any longer - that knowing, half smile even. Even much earlier he must have known what was about to happen, telling Luke their paths will be different.

and now, speaking of how the prequels change the way you view the OT, perhaps he has that knowing look because of his "training" and discussions with Yoda and Qui Gon - immortality awaits.

but Vader - he is relishing this opportunity to change the balance in his ledger from vanquished to victorious....imagine the bitterness over the years. "Escape is not his plan" - since they were fighting to the death on Mustafar, the Deathstar location would not change the intention.

but I do like pepgal's inference that (again the PT changing the OT) Obi-Wan might be remembering who Anakin was and that Padme still believed in the good that was still there.

I like it all.

[thepepgal]

I love that look Sir Alec/Obi Wan gave Vader before he physcially acknowledged to Vader he was not going to fight any longer - that knowing, half smile even. Even much earlier he must have known what was about to happen, telling Luke their paths will be different.

and now, speaking of how the prequels change the way you view the OT, perhaps he has that knowing look because of his "training" and discussions with Yoda and Qui Gon - immortality awaits.

but Vader - he is relishing this opportunity to change the balance in his ledger from vanquished to victorious....imagine the bitterness over the years. "Escape is not his plan" - since they were fighting to the death on Mustafar, the Deathstar location would not change the intention.

but I do like pepgal's inference that (again the PT changing the OT) Obi-Wan might be remembering who Anakin was and that Padme still believed in the good that was still there.

I like it all.

Thanks lovelucas. :howdy: