"They Continually Speak To Us..."

[Lord Tesla]

"...telling us the will of the Force."

Thus Qui-Gon Jinn spoke to young Anakin, concerning the midi-chlorians.

Okay. If that is so...

What were they saying to Palpatine?

Comments? Thoughts? Theories?

[jedimasterElizabeth]

The Force doesn't speak to the Sith as they are blinded by the Dark Side. The Sith is the death of the Force although they can use it.

^This is my theory.

[thepepgal]

The jedi listen to the force as they are guided by it. The sith don't want listen to the force they want to control it for their own use. They want power.

[Orandhite]

Yep, I agree. Jedi listen to the Force to do it's bidding (so are kind of ruled by the Force), whereas on the other hand Sith want to rule the Force and bend it's will to their own.

[Coyote850]

The Force doesn't speak to the Sith as they are blinded by the Dark Side. The Sith is the death of the Force although they can use it.

^This is my theory.

I think the Force still speaks to the Sith, but the Sith only hear what they want to hear. They use the Force as a tool to further their own agenda.

[Jacno]

Jedi listen to the Force to do it's bidding (so are kind of ruled by the Force), whereas on the other hand Sith want to rule the Force and bend it's will to their own.


If the Jedi listened to the Force and did it's bidding, then wouldn't that make the Force a slightly more sentient and biased entity? If this were the case, then the fact that the Sith are able to both wield the power of, and contradict the wishes of the Force would mean that the Force does not get to choose who can tap into its power.

To the midi-chrolian theory; they are simply an extension of your own self. If one is truely evil by nature, the midi-chlorians would be, as well. Therefore the message one gets from them (supposedly the message from the Force) would be evil as well.

Or perhaps the Force doesn't speak to anyone (sort of like the "I speak to God" complex), and the Jedi are simply the "With great power comes great responsibility" types, while the Sith exploit their power for self-benefit.

[Jacno]

The Force doesn't speak to the Sith as they are blinded by the Dark Side. The Sith is the death of the Force although they can use it.

Don't forget that the original Jedi (Jedi-Bindu, I've heard them called?) studied both the light and dark side of the Force- to remain balanced, until one master began to use the Force for his own good, and corrupted his apprentices.
The Dark Side isn't the death of the Force, nor is it blind to the Force. In fact I would even say that it is a more complete and total unity with the Force, since the Sith are able to tap into power that the Jedi wish to avoid. But keep in mind- Power corrupts.

[jedimasterElizabeth]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thank you, My Masters:innocent:

[Lord Tesla]

The Force doesn't speak to the Sith as they are blinded by the Dark Side. The Sith is the death of the Force although they can use it.

^This is my theory.


Interesting. However, if we look at the evidence, I am not sure it bears out your theory. "Difficult to see the Dark Side is," Yoda said. Note that the Jedi were totally oblivious to the Sith, until Darth Maul practically landed in their laps, sure though they were that the Sith could not have returned without their knowledge. Also, the chancellor was Sith, and they were equally unaware. Mace and Yoda spoke among themselves of their diminished ability to use the Force, of which weakness only the Dark Lord of the Sith was as yet aware (so Yoda said). And Yoda declared that the shroud of the dark side had descended after the Battle of Geonosis--which seems to be one with Obi-Wan's Original Trilogy reference to the Dark Times preceding the Empire.

During all of which, and after which, Palpatine was busily plotting and scheming, boasting of all going as he had foreseen. (And most of the time, when Skywalkers weren't involved, it did.)

So, who was the more blinded by the dark side of the Force?

[Lord Tesla]

The jedi listen to the force as they are guided by it. The sith don't want listen to the force they want to control it for their own use. They want power.

Okay. But what is it that the Sith are not listening to? The Microscopic Choir singing their cover of "I Fought the Law"? Millions of tiny voices calling out, "Drop that Repbulic and come out with hands up"?

[Coyote850]

It seems to me that a true Master of the Dark Side, a true "Sith Master" has the uncanny ability to hide themselves from light side users, no matter how powerfull the light side user is. And that makes sense, if the "rule of two" holds true, then the Sith needs to have that defensive ability for their very survival.

[Lord Tesla]

Yep, I agree. Jedi listen to the Force to do it's bidding (so are kind of ruled by the Force), whereas on the other hand Sith want to rule the Force and bend it's will to their own.

But what of the knowledge the Sith gain through the Force? Is that a separate phenomenon from that of the midi chlorians communicating the will of the Force? Analogous, perhaps, to a different channel on the radio, one they can tune in while tuning out the All-Will-All-the-Time broadcast?

It seems difficult to me to think that these microscopic lifeforms present in their thousands at the cellular level, in each cell, which it is strongly implied are not only the little messengers of the Force, but also the source of the Force, or at least a Jedi's strength with/control over the Force, could be ignored, at least while making use of the Power of the Force.

[Jacno]

Tesla, I have a question...

You asked a question, yet you seem to already have your own ideas about the answer- were you just looking for other opinions, or did you intend to start a debate?

I'm not trying to be rude- so my apologies if it came across that way-
I'm just genuinely curious.

[Lord Tesla]

Tesla, I have a question...

By all means...

You asked a question, yet you seem to already have your own ideas about the answer- were you just looking for other opinions, or did you intend to start a debate?

Yes, yes--yes and yes. :)

Seriously, yes, I asked the question, having ideas in mind already. I wanted to see what others here thought, as well, and I wanted to discuss--or, if you like, debate--the ideas. I thought the format of a question more likely to generate sustained interaction than simply posting my ideas fully formed and explained.

I'm not trying to be rude- so my apologies if it came across that way-
I'm just genuinely curious.

No apology necessary. I applaud your curiosity. I hope I haven't offended anyone with this thread. As I said, I was only looking to stimulate an exchange, and discussion, of ideas.

[Lord Tesla]

It seems to me that a true Master of the Dark Side, a true "Sith Master" has the uncanny ability to hide themselves from light side users, no matter how powerfull the light side user is. And that makes sense, if the "rule of two" holds true, then the Sith needs to have that defensive ability for their very survival.

Without a doubt. The great mystery is, What is the mechanism by which they do this, and how does it work? I don't have a definitive answer, but Yoda's remark about the difficulty in seeing the dark side is suggestive.

Which reminds me of another bit of Yoda dialog: "Stronger, the dark side is." I've seen video of Frank Oz recording it; my interactive Yoda says it, or would if I put the batteries back in him. It never appeared on screen, but for Oz to have recorded it under Lucas's direction, it must have had some purpose.

[Jacno]

Without a doubt. The great mystery is, What is the mechanism by which they do this, and how does it work? I don't have a definitive answer, but Yoda's remark about the difficulty in seeing the dark side is suggestive.


My theory is that part of controlling the Force is simply being able to remove oneself from it. If the Force flows through all things, then all things are subject to influence from the Force. That influence may come in the form of midi-chlorians telling you what to have for breakfast, or in the form of a Jedi Force-pushing you aside.
I think if one gain enough control, one can actually remove themselves from the Force- effectively making them undetectable. Of course they would not beable to use the force AND remove themselves at the same moment, but when Palppy is in the same room as Yoda, he doesn't need to Force-lightning anyone, therefore he can remove himself, and Yoda is none-the-wiser.
Jedi would be able to do this too, and may even know about that ability, but they are all about embracing the Force, since it tells them what to do and all, and so they would have no desire to do such a thing.

[Jacno]

Which reminds me of another bit of Yoda dialog: "Stronger, the dark side is." I've seen video of Frank Oz recording it; my interactive Yoda says it, or would if I put the batteries back in him. It never appeared on screen, but for Oz to have recorded it under Lucas's direction, it must have had some purpose.

The Dark side would of course be stronger, because the power comes from two places: The Force, and the Sith's emotions.
The Jedi use just the Force, since emotions cloud their judgement of the greater good.

[Lord Tesla]

My theory is that part of controlling the Force is simply being able to remove oneself from it. If the Force flows through all things, then all things are subject to influence from the Force. That influence may come in the form of midi-chlorians telling you what to have for breakfast, or in the form of a Jedi Force-pushing you aside.

The Force surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together--that being the case, I'm not sure how anyone would remove one's self from it. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter": that, to me, suggests that removing one's self from the Force would be tantamount to self-annihilation, and that doesn't seem to be what's going on, or even something Palpatine would have been willing to do.


I think if one gain enough control, one can actually remove themselves from the Force- effectively making them undetectable.

But since life creates it and makes it grow, wouldn't one continually be spewing the stuff from which one was trying to extricate one's self? Switching it off like a lightbulb just doesn't seem right. You'd have to put out your own lights, permanently, so it would seem, for that to work.

Of course they would not beable to use the force AND remove themselves at the same moment, but when Palppy is in the same room as Yoda, he doesn't need to Force-lightning anyone, therefore he can remove himself, and Yoda is none-the-wiser.

But surely Palpatine did use the Force when Jedi were present, even before the Purge. If Yoda was able to sense what was happening to Anakin across half a galaxy when he massacred the sand people; if Palpatine on Coruscant was able to sense that Anakin was in danger on Mustafar--surely one or another of the Jedi Council should have been able to sense Palpatine, when both were on the same planet, and in relatively close proximity. For he surely must have been using the Force during his years in the senate, to do his necessary foreseeing, to instruct Maul in proper Sith techniques of general Force use and combat Force use, and who knows what else.


Jedi would be able to do this too, and may even know about that ability, but they are all about embracing the Force, since it tells them what to do and all, and so they would have no desire to do such a thing.

And yet, ostensibly, somehow Obi-Wan and Yoda managed to stay hidden. Not to mention that Qui-Gon seems to have gone unnoticed, unless...

After Anakin had unhanded Windu in the chancellor's office, Darth Sidious did say, regarding the secret of cheating death, that only one had achieved that power. To "cheat death"--We know that one wasn't Plagueis, or Maul or Tyrannus, or one of them would have been there, not Palpatine; but Palpatine was there, and hoped that working together he and Anakin could discover the secret, so it wasn't him. Who had actually cheated death at that time? Qui-Gon, and only Qui-Gon. So maybe Palpatine was aware of him--but I digress.


I think it must be somehow a technique that involves clouding others' perceptions, actively using the Force, if it isn't a matter, at least for the Sith, of wrapping themselves carefully in dark Force energy, so that they, like the dark side itself, become, as Yoda said, "difficult to see."

[Jedi Master Harrison]

The Force surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together--that being the case, I'm not sure how anyone would remove one's self from it. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter": that, to me, suggests that removing one's self from the Force would be tantamount to self-annihilation, and that doesn't seem to be what's going on, or even something Palpatine would have been willing to do.




But since life creates it and makes it grow, wouldn't one continually be spewing the stuff from which one was trying to extricate one's self? Switching it off like a lightbulb just doesn't seem right. You'd have to put out your own lights, permanently, so it would seem, for that to work.



But surely Palpatine did use the Force when Jedi were present, even before the Purge. If Yoda was able to sense what was happening to Anakin across half a galaxy when he massacred the sand people; if Palpatine on Coruscant was able to sense that Anakin was in danger on Mustafar--surely one or another of the Jedi Council should have been able to sense Palpatine, when both were on the same planet, and in relatively close proximity. For he surely must have been using the Force during his years in the senate, to do his necessary foreseeing, to instruct Maul in proper Sith techniques of general Force use and combat Force use, and who knows what else.




And yet, ostensibly, somehow Obi-Wan and Yoda managed to stay hidden. Not to mention that Qui-Gon seems to have gone unnoticed, unless...

After Anakin had unhanded Windu in the chancellor's office, Darth Sidious did say, regarding the secret of cheating death, that only one had achieved that power. To "cheat death"--We know that one wasn't Plagueis, or Maul or Tyrannus, or one of them would have been there, not Palpatine; but Palpatine was there, and hoped that working together he and Anakin could discover the secret, so it wasn't him. Who had actually cheated death at that time? Qui-Gon, and only Qui-Gon. So maybe Palpatine was aware of him--but I digress.


I think it must be somehow a technique that involves clouding others' perceptions, actively using the Force, if it isn't a matter, at least for the Sith, of wrapping themselves carefully in dark Force energy, so that they, like the dark side itself, become, as Yoda said, "difficult to see."

Your last paragraph is correct. Using their control of the force, both Sith and Jedi were capable of 'shielding' the fact that they were force-users. This is explained well, in terms of how Sidious went undected, in the novelisation of ROTS. Jedi have used the technique on a number of occassions, for example to 'hide; from Vader in Dark Lord, The Rise of Darth Vader. I'd recommend them both as good reads. In terms of the films, I think we just have to accept that it was darkside power that allowed Sidious to remain undetected.

I think it was the darkside growing stronger that clouded the Jedi's ability to use the force and so were less able to easily 'find' the Sith through the force, whether or not they were in close proximity. Presumably the fact that Yoda was familar with the force 'patterns' of his fellow Jedi that he could sense what was happening to them during order 66. In fact in one of the PT books (I can't remember if it was Dark Rendezvous or Labyrinth of Evil) it describes Yoda's ability to almost 'see through the eyes' of his fellow Jedi, wherever they were.

With regard to 'cheating death' - I wonder whether he was referring to himself as I have heard that in the EU he was able to take on a number of different bodies and his spirit lived on - but I haven't read that far yet. If it was not that, then that is a very interesting point, who was he talking about? I'm not sure he would be able to sense Qui Gon, certainly if he was able to he never told anyone - as Vader certainly had no idea what happened to Obi-Wan in ANH. You've got me thinking......................

[thepepgal]

Okay. But what is it that the Sith are not listening to? The Microscopic Choir singing their cover of "I Fought the Law"? Millions of tiny voices calling out, "Drop that Repbulic and come out with hands up"?

Unfortunately my own link to the force isn't that strong so I don't hear what is being said. :wink:

And the jedi don't actually mention what they hear either, other than millions of people crying out when they die.

[Jacno]

When I say remove, I don't mean literally plucking oneself from the aura of the Force and setting yourself outside of the bubble- I mean something more like decreasing your power output.
Think of it like an adjustable light bulb. If you have it on, but at the lowest possible setting, it'll flicker ever so slightly between very faint, and no light.
So, as the Jedi council knew, the dark side was growing stronger, thanks to the flickering, but they couldn't figure out WHERE or WHO it was. Palppy, of course, had to use the Force somewhat, but if he kept it at a minimum, the Jedi wouldn't be able to "trace" it to him. Not until it was too late, at least.
About the whole "Qui-Gon is still alive" bit, I've heard this here and there, but fail to why it is so significant? I'm not a huge EU reader, though, so perhaps I've just missed something important.

Just thought I should add- I don't dislike EU at all, I'm a fan, take in whatever comes across my path- I'm just not a huge fan of reading (in general) anymore. I love writing, and I will surely read if something strikes my fancy, I just don't go out of my way to read fictional stuff.

[Lord Tesla]

When I say remove, I don't mean literally plucking oneself from the aura of the Force and setting yourself outside of the bubble- I mean something more like decreasing your power output.
Think of it like an adjustable light bulb. If you have it on, but at the lowest possible setting, it'll flicker ever so slightly between very faint, and no light.
So, as the Jedi council knew, the dark side was growing stronger, thanks to the flickering, but they couldn't figure out WHERE or WHO it was.

Dimmer Switch of the Force? That may very well be, and isn't entirely incompatible with my notions of an active Force technique: This is just another way of using it, in a very minimal, controlled way. Correct?

About the whole "Qui-Gon is still alive" bit, I've heard this here and there, but fail to why it is so significant? I'm not a huge EU reader, though, so perhaps I've just missed something important.

It is in the films themselves. Yoda, meditating, while Anakin is off on his mission to escort Senator Amidala back to Naboo, hearing Qui-Gon calling out in the Force at the same time Yoda senses Anakin's "pain, terrible pain," at his mother's death and its immediate consequences, the Tusken Massacre. And in Episode III, Yoda telling Obi-Wan that an old friend has learned the secret of immortality, or words to that effect, and that he'll teach Obi-Wan how to commune with Qui-Gon in his exile on Tatooine. It's as canon as canon gets.

The significance is...he was the first to figure it out, the first to make it work. Survival after death, immortality, *and* it's a whole new Force power: that's pretty significant.

Now, exactly what else it means, how it happened, and why he never showed up as a blue aura in the OT like Kenobi and Yoda is something else altogether.

Just thought I should add- I don't dislike EU at all, I'm a fan, take in whatever comes across my path- I'm just not a huge fan of reading (in general) anymore. I love writing, and I will surely read if something strikes my fancy, I just don't go out of my way to read fictional stuff.

I have a mixed view of the EU. I don't like a lot of it, for quality reasons. And a lot of it has been invalidated by subsequent revelations of the prequels. But I read most of it, anyway: it is Star Wars, after all!

I just polished off the Jedi Quest series the other day, and I'm about to start the Last of the Jedi novels. (And I'm hoping it shows some improvement over the JQ series, too.) And then there's the Death Star novel coming up, and the next Legacy novel, and...

[Lord Tesla]

Unfortunately my own link to the force isn't that strong so I don't hear what is being said. :wink:

Me, neither. But I still think we can gain greater insight, even if not the precise wording, by careful analysis.


And the jedi don't actually mention what they hear either, other than millions of people crying out when they die.

I don't think Obi-Wan was leveling when he claimed to feel the destruction of Alderaan in the Force. I think he picked it up on his iPod.

We do know Qui-Gon spoke of speech, and the will of the Force. Speaking might be merely metaphorical, but surely we can make some inferences about the will of the Force?

[Raganork8]

The Force is never as straight foward as most people are discussing it here.

The Sith must 'hear' the force; being that the force surrounds EVERYTHING and binds EVERYTHING, everyone must have some connection with it; it's just that some people, jedi and sith, are capable of hearing and following the will of the force.

It's like religon right now, we have people of a belief who are willing to kill for that ideal and some people who absolutely condemn that kind of action. Both point to a passage or a line that will back up thier ideas.

The Force, must will a person to a crossroad and it's up to that person to choose the path.

Serving the force cannot be as simple as right and wrong. We're constantly being reminded that the Darkside is not the 'wrong' side; but just the path that more commonly leads to self destruction. But the Downfall of the Jedi is partially thier fault.

The Darkisde worked in conjunction with the light to bring down the jedi.

so to say that the force is not speaking to the Sith seems to be unfair. They are just as in tune with the force as any Jedi.

The Force must be ambigious


IMO

[Lord Tesla]

Your last paragraph is correct.

Only the last one...?



Using their control of the force, both Sith and Jedi were capable of 'shielding' the fact that they were force-users. This is explained well, in terms of how Sidious went undected, in the novelisation of ROTS.

Looks as if I'm going to have to break down and read ROTS.

Jedi have used the technique on a number of occassions, for example to 'hide; from Vader in Dark Lord, The Rise of Darth Vader. I'd recommend them both as good reads. In terms of the films, I think we just have to accept that it was darkside power that allowed Sidious to remain undetected.

Now Dark Lord I have read. Don't remember much about how the Jedi did their hiding, though. The main thing that sticks out in my memory is that Vader's prosthetics as described didn't match those seen in ROTS.

From the films, we likely won't be able to get more than the idea that dark side powers shielded them, but I'm not prepared to accept that just yet. And who knows what might happen if Lucas gets the SE bug again?


I think it was the darkside growing stronger that clouded the Jedi's ability to use the force and so were less able to easily 'find' the Sith through the force, whether or not they were in close proximity.

That does seem to fit well with the concepts of the "shroud of the dark side" and the "dark times" Yoda and Obi-Wan referenced, and the diminished capacity of the Jedi to "use the Force"--which surely wasn't a matter of using it in physical ways, since they seemed to have no trouble with the leaping and the fighting and the telekinesis-ing.

Presumably the fact that Yoda was familar with the force 'patterns' of his fellow Jedi that he could sense what was happening to them during order 66. In fact in one of the PT books (I can't remember if it was Dark Rendezvous or Labyrinth of Evil) it describes Yoda's ability to almost 'see through the eyes' of his fellow Jedi, wherever they were.

Perhaps. I've never liked the idea that a Jedi, even Yoda, could do that, going back all the way to True at Bakura, where I first remember reading about it. It's probably a shorter cut to assume that Yoda's continued ability was due to his greater power beforehand. For that, at least, there is support in the films.

With regard to 'cheating death' - I wonder whether he was referring to himself as I have heard that in the EU he was able to take on a number of different bodies and his spirit lived on - but I haven't read that far yet. If it was not that, then that is a very interesting point, who was he talking about? I'm not sure he would be able to sense Qui Gon, certainly if he was able to he never told anyone - as Vader certainly had no idea what happened to Obi-Wan in ANH. You've got me thinking......................

Hmmm. Palpatine keeping a secret--I can see that happening. Especially from Vader. I'm familiar, to the extent memory permits, with the older stories about the emperor surviving after the Battle of Endor by moving about from clone to clone--but that stuff all predates TPM, and was invalidated by the prequels. And remember, he tells Anakin that only one has learned the power, but that he's certain the two of them working together can discover the secret. Meaning, he didn't now the secret. Now, he might have been lying to the boy, but somehow, I didn't get the impression that that was case. So it can only mean Qui-Gon. And there are a couple of indications in EU material dating from around the release of AOTC, that Yoda first discovered or sensed Qui-Gon's presence while he was probing the dark side of the Force.

Now if that's the case, well, who would be better to discover him than Palpatine?

[Jacno]

Meaning, he didn't now the secret. Now, he might have been lying to the boy, but somehow, I didn't get the impression that that was case. So it can only mean Qui-Gon. And there are a couple of indications in EU material dating from around the release of AOTC, that Yoda first discovered or sensed Qui-Gon's presence while he was probing the dark side of the Force.

Now if that's the case, well, who would be better to discover him than Palpatine?

I'm still not sure that Qui-Gon is the one who "cheated death". Not sure how all those signed add up to "only mean Qui-Gon", a least.
Granted the EU evidence points strongly to that conclusion, and it has been a while since I watched ROTS (least favorite movie), but I'll refresh on the scene which it is discussed tonight.
But, as I recall, I was under the impression that Palppy was referring to a Jedi/Sith from long, long ago. A legend, basically.

[Cryogenic]

"They continually speak to us . . ."

"This war represents a failure to listen . . ."

[lovelucas]

this is so good Raganork:

The Force, must will a person to a crossroad and it's up to that person to choose the path.

Serving the force cannot be as simple as right and wrong. We're constantly being reminded that the Darkside is not the 'wrong' side; but just the path that more commonly leads to self destruction. But the Downfall of the Jedi is partially their fault.

[Kam Solusar]

Jedi and Sith both "hear" the Force equally. The difference between them is that the Jedi allow the Force to control them almost outright (to a point, anyway, based on the exchange between Luke and Obi-Wan in ANH "You mean it controls your actions? "Yes, but it also obeys your will." Something like that) while the Sith grab the Force by the scruff of the neck and command it to do their bidding.

The Jedi's fatal flaw was being caught up in being "Jedi."