Did Anakin truly return to the Light in ROTJ?

[borgmatrix]

I know that in ROTJ the intent was clearly that Anakin had returned to the side of good, as evidenced by the appearance of his spirit alongside Yoda and Ben. But did we really see enough in his actions aboard the Death Star, especially in the context of the prequels, to truly support that Anakin had left the Dark Side?

What I'm referencing specifically is that Anakin/Vader, when he attacked Sidious, appeared to be acting just as he did in the prequels: out of attachment and fear of loss.

In AOTC, he was devasted over the loss of his mother and his "failure" in not saving her. He became obsessed over the thought of losing Padme, something he was unwilling to accept and which led to by-any-means-necessary action on his part to save her, even if it meant selling out his soul, the Jedi Order, and the galaxy. All he cared about was saving his wife.

Can we believe that any thing has truly changed by the time of ROTJ? His son's life was in danger, much like felt Padme's was, and he acted to save Luke. Isn't that in keeping with his past behavior? How do we know that he cared at all about the galaxy or stopping the Sith or doing what was right?

Again, I know we see Anakin as a spirit at the end, indication of him becoming one with the Force. That's obviously evidence that he had returned to the Light. But I'm not sure enough was done to support that. It might have meant more to see him stop Sidious without Luke in danger as it would have shown it was less about saving his own blood and more about doing what he should have done 20-something years earlier in ROTS.

[Miasmo]

It's not so much the visible changes as the internal struggle. The Light Side victory in this struggle is referenced in his words "You were right about me". He conquered the Dark Side influence, and if time had allowed, would have done what he could to redeem himself in the eyes others.

But time did not allow, and he died, so we saw saw the evidence of his victory in the form of his spirit.

Sure, if it was real instead of a story, people would have their doubts about Vader's redemption. That's natural. But this is a story with specific points to be made.

[RollaFett]

Borg- This is something I've had a problem with for years. Anakin simply doesn't do enough by killing the Emperor to deserve redemption, or a return to the light side of the Force.
For whatever reason though, through the Force, he appears to be forgiven/redeemed for doing something that would've occurred regardless of his actions when Lando and co. destroy the Death Star.
And yes, in the end, it sure seems as though he was merely only trying to save Luke, which is definately something the younger Anakin does as well, which only led to death and destruction.
Perhaps, the Force recognizes that by saving Luke, the light side/Jedi, as a whole, is given another chance to live. That wouldn't have been possible had Vader/Anakin not taken action, regardless of whether that was his overall intent.

[borgmatrix]

Borg- This is something I've had a problem with for years. Anakin simply doesn't do enough by killing the Emperor to deserve redemption, or a return to the light side of the Force.
Well, I wouldn't be looking for an act that's sizeable enough to atone for all the lives that had been lost under Sith rule. I'm not sure any such act could be identified. I'd say its more about purity of intention. If a person who has committed atrocities is pure of intention in giving that up and desiring to be truly good, then in my eyes, it doesn't matter what happened in the past. In the present, he or she is good.

In that sense, Miasmo might be right about Anakin, internally, being genuine in action and motivation. It's just that within the context of the movie, we simply have to accept that, whereas I would have preferred to have been given something where we feel its the truth. Well, I shouldn't say that. The moment itself, when Vader looks between Sidious and Luke and finally acts...that came across very well. But when comparing Vader at the end to the similar situations and actions of the past with loved ones, it doesn't appear all that different.

For whatever reason though, through the Force, he appears to be forgiven/redeemed for doing something that would've occurred regardless of his actions when Lando and co. destroy the Death Star.
Not really. Luke had time to get himself and Vader's body off the DS. My impression was that if Vader hadn't intervened, Sidious would have killed Luke and the two Sith would then have escaped the DS.

And yes, in the end, it sure seems as though he was merely only trying to save Luke, which is definately something the younger Anakin does as well, which only led to death and destruction.
That's what bothers me. That his pattern of behavior in ROTJ matches the past. I realize, of course, that Lucas hadn't yet written the PT when working on ROTJ, so he wouldn't have been thinking about that. But then, even without the PT, Vader's redemption felt slightly rushed.

I guess it comes down to what Miasmo was getting at. Even if on the surface Anakin appears to be acting the same, his inner motivation was now pure.

[Zedekk]

this topic is covered well in a book titled "the rise and fall of Darth Vader". But I'm not going to propose that the ideas therein reflect what truly did happen and say that the reasons given are what cause Anakin to become one with the force. I understand the frustration in wanting to "see" or be convinced of the result of Anakin being forgiven and worthy of becoming a force ghost, but it's George Lucas for crying out loud. He doesn't do that. He didn't convince me of the romance between Padme and Anakin, he didn't convince me of Luke being able to become a Jedi with the training and instruction that he had recieved, he didn't convince me that the Empire was truly evil and oppressive as it is always made out to be. (Tarkin blowing up the planet is the only evidence of that) And he didn't convince me of the reason behind Padme's death. But still I like the epic story because of its broad stokes of plot and mythological elements. The formula somehow works.

[Coyote850]

As far as the Empire being evil......Lucas can't go into great details of Palpatine and Vaders evil doings in just a couple hours of a movie. He uses our sense of sight to do the story telling, Vader looks evil, the stormtroopers look menicing.........If a pretty little princess is running away from Darth Vader then he must be evil. Some things you just have to take for granted.

Did Anakin return to the light in RoTJ? Yes he did. Should he have........maybe......maybe not.

[RollaFett]

Not really. Luke had time to get himself and Vader's body off the DS. My impression was that if Vader hadn't intervened, Sidious would have killed Luke and the two Sith would then have escaped the DS.

Well, our impressions seem to differ. Now, if Sidious did kill Luke, why would then leave the DS? His was supremely confident that the Rebels would not succeed. At no point was I ever under the impression that the Emperor felt threatened during that battle.


That's what bothers me. That his pattern of behavior in ROTJ matches the past. I realize, of course, that Lucas hadn't yet written the PT when working on ROTJ, so he wouldn't have been thinking about that. But then, even without the PT, Vader's redemption felt slightly rushed.

I guess it comes down to what Miasmo was getting at. Even if on the surface Anakin appears to be acting the same, his inner motivation was now pure.

Well we agree here, to a point. I think that Lucas may have very well had some of Vaders origin in mind when writing ROTJ, and maybe wrote his saving of Luke as a way to nearly mirror some of his earlier acts as Anakin. As an audience in 1983, we sure as hell don't know any of this, but I do feel as though Lucas was doing such a thing.

[Javen]

I don't believe Vader saved him from a fear of loss at all. He saved him because it was simply the right thing to do.

[borgmatrix]

Well, our impressions seem to differ. Now, if Sidious did kill Luke, why would then leave the DS? His was supremely confident that the Rebels would not succeed. At no point was I ever under the impression that the Emperor felt threatened during that battle.
Well, okay, you're right. Sidious was extremely confident. But I'm looking at the way the station was rocking and shuddering as Luke dragged Vader's body, and all the Imperials running every which way to get away... I guess I'm giving Sids the benefit of the doubt here and assuming he'd have been able to see the writing on the wall and get off. I mean, he was supremely overconfident about Luke turning too, so obviously if that failed, he'd realize he wasn't right about everything. I think his confidence would be shaken enough upon Luke's defiance that he wouldn't miss the fact the DS is about to be blown to bits.

[RollaFett]

^ Definately possible.

[Mothman]

.....Well we agree here, to a point. I think that Lucas may have very well had some of Vaders origin in mind when writing ROTJ, and maybe wrote his saving of Luke as a way to nearly mirror some of his earlier acts as Anakin. As an audience in 1983, we sure as hell don't know any of this, but I do feel as though Lucas was doing such a thing.

My take on Mr. Lucas' concept of Vader's origin back in 1983 is that it was sketchy at best. From what I've gathered, he pretty much made things up as he went along. IMO, those 5 loose-leaf notebooks of backstory notes did not contain enough detail to have him mirror in 1983 what was eventually going to be presented in Episode III (if and when that ever got made).





:bye:

[RollaFett]

^ Don't get me wrong, I am certainly of the belief that Lucas made thigns up as went along as well. I'm a strong supporter of that theory as I'm sure Borg would attest to. In fact, if you haven't already, I suggest checking this out for an extremely detailed and researched ebook on that very subject: http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/

That said, once he had finally nailed down the story for ROTJ, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that perhaps he had something in mind back then with Vader and Luke that could've mirrored an event in Anakin's very sketchy past. Just a thought.

[Mothman]

^ Don't get me wrong, I am certainly of the belief that Lucas made thigns up as went along as well. I'm a strong supporter of that theory as I'm sure Borg would attest to. In fact, if you haven't already, I suggest checking this out for an extremely detailed and researched ebook on that very subject: http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/

That said, once he had finally nailed down the story for ROTJ, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that perhaps he had something in mind back then with Vader and Luke that could've mirrored an event in Anakin's very sketchy past. Just a thought.


He always talks about SW having different motifs that keep getting repeated over and over again. However, I think that he is using that as an excuse to justify when he keeps repeating stuff instead of coming up with new stuff. If anything, he is mirroring what he already filmed - not the other way around. Otherwise, if he had the foresight to do what you suggest, many of the other plot problems would not exist.

(P.S. - I downloaded that book awhile ago, but haven't had a chance to plow through 400+ pages.)





:bye:

[RollaFett]

Perhaps. And even though I agree with you about the 'making it up as he goes along', I can't simply say he isn't creative enough to come up with some good ideas in the past with the idea to use them in later films.

[Raganork8]

I think Anakin did turn back to the light, as far as we know, becoming a force spector is something a sith cannot achieve because of their inability to think outwardly.

Think of the three Jedi who managed to obtain the force spector

Obi Wan = Let Vader Kill him So luke could go on

Anakin = Allowed Palps to shock him to Death to save Luke

With the exception of Yoda each jedi allowed themself to die for Luke I'd explain Yoda's reason with the fact that he went into Exile for the better of the galaxy in hopes that a new hope would arise so...

Yes it hink anakin did return for that purpose.

[Orandhite]

I think that Anakin did return to the light side.

When he is looking between Luke and the Emperor there is no emotion, he is thinking about the situation and deciding what he is going to do. When he finally picks up Palps, there is no "Noooooooo, stop hurting my son" kind of emotion from him. He merely realises that the RIGHT thing to do is kick the old guy's butt. So, from the evidence just in ROTJ I think that he does return to the light side as his decision appears to not be based on emotion related to the fact that his son is dying.

Following this on and looking at the PT movies, when Anakin's mother dies and when he finds out Padme has died, he is very emotional, but when Luke is in trouble, he is very calm. The way I see this is that when Anakin's mother dies he takes a step to the Dark Side as he then goes on a murderous rampage, and when he learns of Padme dying he takes his final step to becoming a Sith Lord. These incidents are where he gives in to his emotions and steps further along the path to the Dark Side.

So I would argue that the fact he was emotionless when he chose to destroy the emperor, he was acting as a Jedi would, not by being ruled by his emotions, but basing his decision on what he thought was the right thing to do.

Some could then argue that this one act does not redeem everything and that it does not mean that he returned to the light side. However...Jedi are selfless. Sith are selfish and can only see inwardly. By CHOOSING to sacrifice himself (as opposed to REACTING emotionally and attacking the Emperor) he exhibited the epitomy of the Jedi order by choosing to die to end the reign of the Emperor.

Now, another flaw in this argument could be that (from the first paragraph) when he is choosing, he is looking between LUKE and the EMPEROR. However, it appears that what Anakin is actually seeing is the Light Side and the Dark Side, rather than the actual individuals, and so is more symbolic. The reason why this appears to be the case is that if Anakin was viewing the individuals, then he would have been more emotional as either he would have seen his son dying, OR he would have seen his master destroying the only hope of the Empire being destroyed. So he would either have been distraught/angry or he would have been ecstatic as the Emperor appeared to be.

His lack of emotion at this point suggests that he made the decision as a Jedi and not a Sith. True, one action might not mean that he had returned to the Light Side, but as he made the ultimate sacrifice and the way that he did it makes me believe that he had returned.

As an aside, there is some more discussion of this in the "The end of "The Return of the Jedi"" thread.

[lovelucas]

I don't believe Vader saved him from a fear of loss at all. He saved him because it was simply the right thing to do.

I agree with Javen....
the potential loss of Luke to DV/Anakin does not resonate in the same degree or genre as the loss of Padme...which was personally important to Anakin himself as he perceived it - he was not thinking in terms of saving her to save the galaxy or that it was the right thing to do. But in personal terms it was....very personal terms.

[Mothman]

I think that Anakin did return to the light side.

When he is looking between Luke and the Emperor there is no emotion, he is thinking about the situation and deciding what he is going to do. When he finally picks up Palps, there is no "Noooooooo, stop hurting my son" kind of emotion from him. He merely realises that the RIGHT thing to do is kick the old guy's butt. So, from the evidence just in ROTJ I think that he does return to the light side as his decision appears to not be based on emotion related to the fact that his son is dying.

Following this on and looking at the PT movies, when Anakin's mother dies and when he finds out Padme has died, he is very emotional, but when Luke is in trouble, he is very calm. The way I see this is that when Anakin's mother dies he takes a step to the Dark Side as he then goes on a murderous rampage, and when he learns of Padme dying he takes his final step to becoming a Sith Lord. These incidents are where he gives in to his emotions and steps further along the path to the Dark Side.

So I would argue that the fact he was emotionless when he chose to destroy the emperor, he was acting as a Jedi would, not by being ruled by his emotions, but basing his decision on what he thought was the right thing to do.

Some could then argue that this one act does not redeem everything and that it does not mean that he returned to the light side. However...Jedi are selfless. Sith are selfish and can only see inwardly. By CHOOSING to sacrifice himself (as opposed to REACTING emotionally and attacking the Emperor) he exhibited the epitomy of the Jedi order by choosing to die to end the reign of the Emperor.

Now, another flaw in this argument could be that (from the first paragraph) when he is choosing, he is looking between LUKE and the EMPEROR. However, it appears that what Anakin is actually seeing is the Light Side and the Dark Side, rather than the actual individuals, and so is more symbolic. The reason why this appears to be the case is that if Anakin was viewing the individuals, then he would have been more emotional as either he would have seen his son dying, OR he would have seen his master destroying the only hope of the Empire being destroyed. So he would either have been distraught/angry or he would have been ecstatic as the Emperor appeared to be.

His lack of emotion at this point suggests that he made the decision as a Jedi and not a Sith. True, one action might not mean that he had returned to the Light Side, but as he made the ultimate sacrifice and the way that he did it makes me believe that he had returned.

As an aside, there is some more discussion of this in the "The end of "The Return of the Jedi"" thread.


It's really hard (in fact, impossible IMO) to say that Lil' Ani had no emotion when he was looking between Young Luke and Emperor Palpatine at the end of ROTJ. Wasn't he still wearing his mask? :scratchchin:






:bye:

[Orandhite]

Yes, but in the rest of the OT, whenever he showed emotion, you could tell because of the body movement, IMO. In this scene, his movements are very slow and deliberate and appear to be thought about rather than reactionary.

I do agree though, that it is my perception that he is emotionless at this point in the movie, but the best thing is that we can discuss it and have differing opinions! :)

[Raganork8]

Anakin did turn to the light side...


George Lucas said so :scratchchin:

[Fish1941]

"Return to the Light"?

What an idiotic phrase! No one is completely dark or light. Anakin learned that lesson in ROTJ.

[Darill Cyllem]

^We're using terminology from the movies - light side vs. dark side, turning, falling, etc. I agree that no one is completely light or dark (whatever that might mean), but i hardly think the use of conventional terminology is "idiotic."

[Darth Apotheosus]

Most folks are limiting their scope to ROTJ but I'm going to take a stab it began before that.

We miss out on a HUGE part of Vader's motivation to shed his darkness because we missed out on his reaction when he finds out his child(ren) isn't(aren't)* dead after all.

IF he discovered it between ANH and ESB, that gives a whole new angle and a point of reference for him beginning to question his loyalty to the Emperor. Up to that point, DV may not have had any need to doubt the Emperor's power or some perceived "omniscience." But when he discovers, by whatever means, that his son is alive, he might:

1) Wonder if the Emperor isn't as powerful as DV had perceived him to be and/or
2) the Emperor had lied about it the entire time in order to manipulate him into his service.

That doubt could fester more questions about who and what he'd been serving all that time, and give DV more impetus to leave the dark side behind.

DV's first reaction after revealing his identity to Luke is to ask for Luke to join him. That in itself, just wanting his son to be at his side (alive), is a start on that long road to redemption.


*He didn't seem concerned with Leia, really, sexist as that is.

[Darill Cyllem]

^Good points, DA. :thumbs-up:
Though, I'd argue, given the dialog from ROTJ, that Vader didn't know about Leia until then. I think he was concerned with Leia, as a former senator and leader of the Rebellion, but not as his daughter until that last confrontation with Luke.

[Fish1941]

^We're using terminology from the movies - light side vs. dark side, turning, falling, etc. I agree that no one is completely light or dark (whatever that might mean), but i hardly think the use of conventional terminology is "idiotic."


I'm sorry but I do. I also consider the use of dark side and light side as equally ridiculous. There is only the Force.


*He didn't seem concerned with Leia, really, sexist as that is.

He didn't know that Leia was his daughter until right before the moment Luke attacked him in a fit of rage.

[RollaFett]

What are you talking about? Seriously, I don't get you at all right now. Clearly, there is a dark side and light side of the Force. It's been stated in the dialogue of the films for cryin' out loud!

[Lord Tesla]

DV's first reaction after revealing his identity to Luke is to ask for Luke to join him. That in itself, just wanting his son to be at his side (alive), is a start on that long road to redemption.

Or the first step toward a second, Vaderian, Empire, a galaxy ruled by the two together, as father and son.

Remember that part of what got Anakin in dark side trouble to begin with was the desire for power to protect...Padmé, and, one assumes, their unborn child.


*He didn't seem concerned with Leia, really, sexist as that is.


Why should he have been, other than as raw material for his Sith schemes? She was no threat: untrained, masterless, with no master to train her in sight, she was not a Jedi, or in any danger of becoming one. As a leader of the Rebellion? The Rebellion was insignificant, never mind its leaders. The Rebellion's only successes were those given it by Palpatine for his purposes, or those wrested from the jaws of defeat by Skywalkers.

[Raganork8]

I agree with you a bit Telsa; I think you're underestimating the Rebellion though; they were A threat.

And fish you must be watching a different movie.

They use the phrases Dark and Light a million times...

Are you telling me that George Lucas is WRONG for putting those phrases in.

We understand people have good and bad within them (Hence the BALANCE in the force) but the Darkside does not use the lightside of the force to create a more whole view of things.

The Lightside can; and thats the balance.

But for the Fact that Anakin was DARTH VADER (and aligned with the Darkside) he would not have been able to defeat the emperor and it's the GOOD in Vader (AKA Anakin) that used his position to turn the tables hence he returned to the light side

[Darth Apotheosus]

^Good points, DA. :thumbs-up:
Though, I'd argue, given the dialog from ROTJ, that Vader didn't know about Leia until then. I think he was concerned with Leia, as a former senator and leader of the Rebellion, but not as his daughter until that last confrontation with Luke.

True. That was only a clarification, not really a point of argument.

[Raganork8]

^Good points, DA. :thumbs-up:
Though, I'd argue, given the dialog from ROTJ, that Vader didn't know about Leia until then. I think he was concerned with Leia, as a former senator and leader of the Rebellion, but not as his daughter until that last confrontation with Luke.

Are we positive he knew it was actually Leia?

He could have thought it was just a girl...

Just saying.

[Darth Apotheosus]

Are we positive he knew it was actually Leia?

He could have thought it was just a girl...

Just saying.

I find it difficult to believe that as powerful in the Force as the Chosen One is supposed to be, his midichlorians wouldn't be thrumming like crazy in the presence of his own daughter. Just something to think about.

Your point however brings up an interesting idea - bear with me.


A complete stranger once approached me while shopping and asked me if I had a sister named [BLEEP]. I told her I did in fact. Her reply: you two look so much alike.

Now, I have *never* thought my sister and I looked anything alike, but there are people outside the family who see the resemblance. Enough of a resemblance that she was confident to ask me if I was related. So, with that in mind...

Granted, these are movies, and the actors/actresses don't always look the part, but family is family. They are going to resemble one another, if only fractionally, and, in making that assumption, along with GL's intention to find a girl who could pass for Leia's mother...

Wouldn't Vader have seen something of his dead wife in Leia? Even a resemblance - he wouldn't have had to recognize her as family, remember, just a look-alike. That gives his torture of her an even more sinister angle, like he was torturing Padme by proxy...

Creepy if you think about it.

[Raganork8]

That s possible; but, who knows what Vader can actually see..literally and figuratively.

Not saying that he doesn't remember what Padme; but, he's probably so twisted that it doesn't matter. Plus not knowing she had the children probably helped.

As long as it's not Padme it probably doesn't matter to him...

IMO

[Darth Apotheosus]

That s possible; but, who knows what Vader can actually see..literally and figuratively.

Not saying that he doesn't remember what Padme; but, he's probably so twisted that it doesn't matter. Plus not knowing she had the children probably helped.

As long as it's not Padme it probably doesn't matter to him...

IMO

He is twisted, no doubt about that. And in another thread I argue about the nature of DV's "love" for Padme, but here I'll play devil's advocate. If DV loved Padme as much as GL wants us to believe, then her face would never have been erased from his memory.

He isn't blinded by the mask - we at least see a snippet of how he will literally view the world in RotS, and that view doesn't preclude the shape of anyone's physical features. There doesn't even have to be an actual familial relationship for DV to see that Leia looks like his dead wife.

I hesitated to bring up this point because its somewhat personal, but maybe airing it here will be therapeutic as well as shed a light on my line of reasoning... :)

I lost someone with whom I was very much in love, and I don't have many pictures of him, and those I have are in the bottom drawer of my desk with the rest of the photos that need to be scanned. Because of the emotional connection, his face is burned indelibly in my memory, whether or not I think of him. In fact, until this came up, I hadn't thought of him in a great while...

Now, on those rare occasions when I see someone who has similar features, even though I know that person isn't related, I do get one of those "memory floods." Not to say I break out in tears, but it does evoke nostalgia. A mere resemblance is enough to spark the memories.

So, someone with familial resemblance, whether DV knows she is family or not, would more than likely see something in her features that reminds him of Padme.

I can't argue that he may be so twisted that he doesn't care and tortures her anyway, (and yes I offered the other idea about him torturing his wife by proxy, its sick, I know..) but I think something else could have happened there and, since this thread is about DV turning back to the light...

I agree that he did, I'm going to offer up any possible motivation that will begin the change back from DV to AS. Certainly seeing the face of someone who looks like Padme could remind him of how/why he'd made that change in the first place, and give him yet another reason to reconsider his choices from ~20 years ago, since GL's storyline in the matter seems to be full of holes.

Anakin's redemption wouldn't have happened in the snap of a finger, just like his turn to the dark side wasn't immediately from a nauseatingly good little boy to DV. The more of these little obstacles to crop up to make him rethink his position and purpose in the world, the more believable his character change.

These "obstacles" may even seem to be working for him, in the beginning, but eventually they'll cause him to fall. RollaFett commented that Vader would envision a possible Vaderian (I like that word, btw) Empire between him and his son. I'll not counter that, but I will say that Vader thinking of sharing anything with anyone is a step in the light direction, since it goes directly against the Sith teachings regarding the Rule of Two. Maybe DV knew that eventually Luke would have to kill him to take on his own apprentice, but that didn't seem to be foremost in his mind at that point.

[Lord Tesla]

I find it difficult to believe that as powerful in the Force as the Chosen One is supposed to be, his midichlorians wouldn't be thrumming like crazy in the presence of his own daughter. Just something to think about.

1. Perceiving someone in the Force is not an exact science. The entire Jedi Council managed to miss the boat on Palpatine. And couldn't find Grievous without help from conventional intelligence gathering. Anakin Skywalker was a surprise to Palpatine when he emerged from the Naboo Crisis. Anakin, in fact, seemed to be able to perplex the perceptions of other Force users regularly, which brings us to...

2. Skywalkers are exceptionally hard to keep track of: Hard to find, hard to keep tabs on, hard to predict. Palpatine missed the boat on Anakin. Palpatine, so far as we can tell, missed the boat on Leia during her senate career. He missed the boat on Luke Skywalker, or he would have had two nice, shiny Death Stars with which to dominate the galaxy. He missed the boat on Luke again when Luke arrived on the sanctuary moon, and he missed the boat on Anakin one last time when he failed to (fore)see him giving him the heave-ho from the throne-room railing.

And Leia was a Skywalker.

[RollaFett]

Not sure if this totally off the subject but I have to take issue with one of your points:
Anakin Skywalker was a surprise to Palpatine when he emerged from the Naboo Crisis.
What makes you think so? Maybe the whole Trade Fed/Naboo Conflict didn't go exactly as Palps had planned it to go, but I wouldn't chalk up Anakin showing up as a surprise, especially considering Palps revelation in ROTS. Which brings me to my second issue with your post:
Palpatine missed the boat on Anakin.
I disagree, obviously. IMO, Palps was telling Anakin that he was his father in the opera scene from ROTS. Anakin didn't seem to pick up on the cues, but it seemed clear to me. As a result, Palps knew at some point that Anakin was going to show up and he could then begin that phase of his grand plan to rule the galaxy.

[Raganork8]

Not sure if this totally off the subject but I have to take issue with one of your points:

What makes you think so? Maybe the whole Trade Fed/Naboo Conflict didn't go exactly as Palps had planned it to go, but I wouldn't chalk up Anakin showing up as a surprise, especially considering Palps revelation in ROTS. Which brings me to my second issue with your post:

I disagree, obviously. IMO, Palps was telling Anakin that he was his father in the opera scene from ROTS. Anakin didn't seem to pick up on the cues, but it seemed clear to me. As a result, Palps knew at some point that Anakin was going to show up and he could then begin that phase of his grand plan to rule the galaxy.

while I agree with you; there's no other merit to what he said than his word...and Palpatine is a liar.

I do think he was hinting at that whether it was the truth or not; I don't think so.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^^ Yes, but perhaps he was hinting at it because Anakin wanted to hear it (I presume he would want to know something about his father, although that is never mentioned in the films, nor EU, as far as I am aware), rather than it being the truth. Sidious was a great manipulator, but was not 'all powerful'.

Whether he knew something about Anakin before the Naboo conflict is also subjective. It is of course possible that he knew something about the creation of a being by either the force or a force-user, even if it wasn't Sidious who had created him. I wonder whether we'll ever get a definitive answer on this subject? Maybe we'll just have to wait another 20-odd years. :laughing:

[Tovor]

Not sure if this totally off the subject but I have to take issue with one of your points:

What makes you think so? Maybe the whole Trade Fed/Naboo Conflict didn't go exactly as Palps had planned it to go, but I wouldn't chalk up Anakin showing up as a surprise, especially considering Palps revelation in ROTS. Which brings me to my second issue with your post:

I disagree, obviously. IMO, Palps was telling Anakin that he was his father in the opera scene from ROTS. Anakin didn't seem to pick up on the cues, but it seemed clear to me. As a result, Palps knew at some point that Anakin was going to show up and he could then begin that phase of his grand plan to rule the galaxy.
I don't agree. First of all, if anything, Palpatine was hinting that Plaguise may have created Anakin. But on the other hand, I don't believe that it was true; I believe that it was an insinuated lie, Palpatine feeding a story to a confused, troubled mind, feeding him exactly what the young Jedi needed to hear in order to supect that the Sith had something to offer him. I do believe that Plagious was real, and that Sidious was his apprentice, but not that either one had a part in Anakin's creation. I believe that Qui-Gon was spot on, that the Force had created Anakin to someday destroy the Sith. Palpatine somehow knew about the prophesy, and knew that it was believed that Anakin was the Chosen One, and he manipulated Anakin to join him not just to help him destroy the Jedi, but to prevent the prophesy from coming true.

If Palpatine had created Anakin, it would have to mean that either the prophesy was untrue, or else Anakin was not the chosen one, or why would Palpatine have created him?

Remember what Yoda said about Dooku? "Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now." Palpatine did that in the opera box, but he succeded in two ways. He created mistrust, obviously in the Jedi, and trust in his path.

[Tovor]

1. Perceiving someone in the Force is not an exact science. The entire Jedi Council managed to miss the boat on Palpatine. And couldn't find Grievous without help from conventional intelligence gathering. Anakin Skywalker was a surprise to Palpatine when he emerged from the Naboo Crisis. Anakin, in fact, seemed to be able to perplex the perceptions of other Force users regularly, which brings us to...

2. Skywalkers are exceptionally hard to keep track of: Hard to find, hard to keep tabs on, hard to predict. Palpatine missed the boat on Anakin. Palpatine, so far as we can tell, missed the boat on Leia during her senate career. He missed the boat on Luke Skywalker, or he would have had two nice, shiny Death Stars with which to dominate the galaxy. He missed the boat on Luke again when Luke arrived on the sanctuary moon, and he missed the boat on Anakin one last time when he failed to (fore)see him giving him the heave-ho from the throne-room railing.

And Leia was a Skywalker.
Excellent points. Let us not forget that Vader could not find the rebel base through the Force either.

[Darth Apotheosus]

2. Skywalkers are exceptionally hard to keep track of: Hard to find, hard to keep tabs on, hard to predict. Palpatine missed the boat on Anakin. Palpatine, so far as we can tell, missed the boat on Leia during her senate career.

I have to disagree that he "missed the boat with Anakin" for the reasons already brought to light. While it is true Palpatine overlooked Leia, she wasn't a Force-user or even and -acknowledger at that point. She would probably have been beneath his notice. If the Senate consists of thousands of delegates, he wouldn't deign to go chasing down every one who had a "winkle" of the latent Force.


He missed the boat on Luke Skywalker, or he would have had two nice, shiny Death Stars with which to dominate the galaxy. He missed the boat on Luke again when Luke arrived on the sanctuary moon, and he missed the boat on Anakin one last time when he failed to (fore)see him giving him the heave-ho from the throne-room railing.

Or maybe he was simply too arrogant to believe anyone would have the audacity to turn on him.

But I was discussing Skywalker to Skywalker here, not Palpatine to Skywalker, and about similar physical features between Leia and her mother. As I have said, the recognition would have been based on her looks, primarily, and possibly the spunky attitude. A little Force delving may have confirmed it.

[RollaFett]

Whether he knew something about Anakin before the Naboo conflict is also subjective.
Yup. But I happen to believe that.

I don't agree. First of all, if anything, Palpatine was hinting that Plaguise may have created Anakin.
Well, we disagree about that then. From the first time I saw that scene, I was 100% convinced that he was subtly revealing that he, Palpatine, was responsible for creating Anakin.
I believe that Qui-Gon was spot on, that the Force had created Anakin to someday destroy the Sith. Palpatine somehow knew about the prophesy, and knew that it was believed that Anakin was the Chosen One, and he manipulated Anakin to join him not just to help him destroy the Jedi, but to prevent the prophesy from coming true.

If Palpatine had created Anakin, it would have to mean that either the prophesy was untrue, or else Anakin was not the chosen one, or why would Palpatine have created him?
"A prophesy, misread, could have been."

Remember what Yoda said about Dooku? "Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now." Palpatine did that in the opera box, but he succeded in two ways. He created mistrust, obviously in the Jedi, and trust in his path.
Sure, I wouldn't trust Palps as far as I could throw him either, but I still believe that he created Anakin.
Lucas was specifically asked about this point sometime after the release of ROTS, and his response was for the fans to "come to their own conclusion". That's exactly what I'm doing, and my conclusion hasn't varied since my first viewing.

[Darth Apotheosus]

I believe that Qui-Gon was spot on, that the Force had created Anakin to someday destroy the Sith. Palpatine somehow knew about the prophesy, and knew that it was believed that Anakin was the Chosen One, and he manipulated Anakin to join him not just to help him destroy the Jedi, but to prevent the prophesy from coming true.

I disagree with the statement that the Force created Anakin to destroy the Sith, as that seems to be, as RollaFett says "misread" - the Chosen One was meant (as Mace Windu states more generally, and probably more correctly) "to bring balance to the Force." Who is to say in which way the balance needed to be tipped, especially since there were about 10,000 hypocritical jedi running around and only 2 hidden Sith? It is quite conceivable in their arrogance they simply thought all of their actions and behaviour throughout this time would be vilified by this Chosen One instead of brought down.

If Palpatine had created Anakin, it would have to mean that either the prophesy was untrue, or else Anakin was not the chosen one, or why would Palpatine have created him?

Palpatine was just as "susceptible" to the will of the Force as any jedi, so who is to say he (or Plageus) didnt create Anakin and unwittingly fufilled the prophesy of the Chosen One?

In another post somewhere I mention the arrogant, hypocritcal nature of the jedi and the need for them to be knocked down a peg, or erased completely so the Force can start over with a change of traditions/philosophies.

Anakin did indeed fulfill the prophesy of the Chosen One, no matter which way you examine it - he destroyed the Jedi AND the Sith and gave the GFFA a tabula rasa. The Force could begin to work its magic with a fresh batch.

With this in mind it is possible to say he was redeemed at the end when he chose to destroy the Emperor, but it may not have been his choice... (not to complicate things further!)

[Jonan Mephi]

My first multi-part quote reply on this board!

I know that in ROTJ the intent was clearly that Anakin had returned to the side of good, as evidenced by the appearance of his spirit alongside Yoda and Ben. But did we really see enough in his actions aboard the Death Star, especially in the context of the prequels, to truly support that Anakin had left the Dark Side?

In my opinion we did, as I will outline in my following responses.

What I'm referencing specifically is that Anakin/Vader, when he attacked Sidious, appeared to be acting just as he did in the prequels: out of attachment and fear of loss.

On the syrface it may appear so, but as a parent of six, I've observed many levels of interaction regarding anger, fear, and response, so I disagree somewhat on this point. In the past, his fear and anger was supported and guided by his youth and a lack of knowledge. He didn't know what to do in certain situations, so he lashed out. Later, as Vader, beaten, sans hand and breathing hard, he listens to his master (and at this point this is what he truly was) and his son talk. He's had a lifetime now of structure to go by. He was not going to do something rash, unless it was warrented. Especially against his master. Only after the dialog, did he decide what to do. I think his decision was two-fold. Save Luke -and- himself, in one move.

In AOTC, he was devasted over the loss of his mother and his "failure" in not saving her. He became obsessed over the thought of losing Padme, something he was unwilling to accept and which led to by-any-means-necessary action on his part to save her, even if it meant selling out his soul, the Jedi Order, and the galaxy. All he cared about was saving his wife.

This time around, there was no "obsession" to overcome. Merely a situation in which he had two choices: 1) let Sid take his son, or 2) take Sid himself.

Can we believe that any thing has truly changed by the time of ROTJ? His son's life was in danger, much like felt Padme's was, and he acted to save Luke. Isn't that in keeping with his past behavior? How do we know that he cared at all about the galaxy or stopping the Sith or doing what was right?

Remember now, he was going to die at this point regardless. What would you do? Rash? Not at all. His turn of thoughts gave him back a shred of his jedi strength, and he was able to hoist the old geezer over the ledge and throw him into the chamber below. Until that happened, he could barely stand, he had to pull himself up, with his one remaining hand.

Again, I know we see Anakin as a spirit at the end, indication of him becoming one with the Force. That's obviously evidence that he had returned to the Light. But I'm not sure enough was done to support that. It might have meant more to see him stop Sidious without Luke in danger as it would have shown it was less about saving his own blood and more about doing what he should have done 20-something years earlier in ROTS.

I don't think that was it exactly. He hadn't known Luke as a son for very long. There was no real attachment. If there had been, the fight on the balcony where Luke lost his own hand would never have happened. No, Vader merely became Anakin again at that point and realised that it all had to stop. While I can agree that for some, the event may have had more merit had it been some toss-away in that scene instead of Luke, the decision to end it, once and for all, seemed true. Remember also, he'd seen those who came before him fall, he remembered Palps own deceptions as a teen / young adult, and now, to see the same tricks being used on another, it was too much considering all that he, and the galaxy, had lost - because of following this one man?

I think he was redeemed, all the way.

[borgmatrix]

My first multi-part quote reply on this board!
And some interesting thoughts! Glad to be the beneficiary in one of the few threads I've started. :)

He's had a lifetime now of structure to go by. He was not going to do something rash, unless it was warrented.
I haven't had the impression that Anakin was acting rashly in the PT. He seemed very aware of what he was doing, and that it was wrong, and chose to act in that manner anyway. In the Council chambers, for instance, we have a quiet, somewhat prolonged scene of quiet contemplation for Anakin. He mulls things over and, evidenced by the tear coming down his face, he seems very aware that he's headed down the wrong path. But he willingly chooses to go to Palpatine office knowing that if push comes to shove, he'll be act against Mace to save Palpatine.

I don't think that was it exactly. He hadn't known Luke as a son for very long. There was no real attachment.
Well, with Padme, I seen a distinction between attachment and love and wondered exactly where between those two points Anakin was. He seemed possessive in terms of being desperate to have her in his life, but how true was his love?

With Luke, he became aware that it was his son somewhere between ANH and ESB. So he had from that point until the end of ROTJ (a couple year span?) to live with the reality that this was his child.

If there had been, the fight on the balcony where Luke lost his own hand would never have happened.
With the balcony scene, I find myself comparing it to his similar offer to Padme at the end of ROTS. Its all these years later and he's still thinking about ruling the galaxy. How much has he really changed in all that time. And how much could he have changed between that moment in ESB and the end of ROTJ?

Remember also, he'd seen those who came before him fall, he remembered Palps own deceptions as a teen / young adult, and now, to see the same tricks being used on another, it was too much considering all that he, and the galaxy, had lost - because of following this one man?
But if he was that concerned about the galaxy, wouldn't he have said as much to Luke instead of giving him the "I must obey my Master" line before taking him to Sidious? All we can see for sure is that he was determined to save Luke. But again, is that all that different from wanting to save his mother? Or Padme? In ROTS, he was willing to sell his soul and his own well-being, and in that sense certainly put himself in danger, in order to save Padme. Is that all that different from again putting his life on the line for Luke? Whether looking to ROTS or ROTJ, I'm not sure how much Anakin was really thinking about LS vs DS. He just seemed to be thinking about saving the ones he loved. In ROTS, that happened to damn the galaxy. In ROTJ, that happened to save it (presumably). But was he really thinking about either in those circumstances? It seems like its more about saving those he cares about, first and foremost, with perhaps little thought for anything else.

[Jonan Mephi]

See, here's the thing...ruling the galaxy...that's a misplaced thought. It is merely how he externalised the "disarray" of no father, a dead mother, and the constant chance of losing what he still has.

The ruling the galaxy thing was more a construct of the Palps, that he latched onto. It wasn't until his own progeny was threatened, by another, that he came around.

As a parent, I can discipline my own children. But when another does it, I become infuriated.

So back to the question of rash verses well thought out. I am positive he was "aware" of his choices when he made them, whatever the time period. But being aware does not exclude rashness per se. Rash is exactly that, the enactment of a thought DESPITE what he / she knows. In this regard, his earlier actions still ring of rashness. His last action was done so BECAUSE of what he knows.

This is the difference.

[borgmatrix]

The ruling the galaxy thing was more a construct of the Palps, that he latched onto. It wasn't until his own progeny was threatened, by another, that he came around.
I don't think I agree. In ROTS, the references to "my new Empire" and his thoughts of toppling the Emperor to make the galaxy as he saw fit seemed borne out of his newfound enjoyment of his power. He was clearly "drunk" with his new experience of the power the DS offered. He still seems enamored with that power in the OT, as evidenced by his constant reference to the "power of the dark side". I don't think this is a case of borrowing the Emperor's ideology, but rather borne of his own experience and appreciation of the DS.

Rash is exactly that, the enactment of a thought DESPITE what he / she knows.
I've always understand 'rash' to be acting without thought/understanding of consequence. Anakin wasn't acting in that manner when it came to his decision to aid Palpatine. We can question whether it was the best move or the right move, but he had thought it out and was willing to live with the consequences. It wasn't a rashly made decision.

[Jonan Mephi]

Hm, ok maybe "rash" was the wrong term to use. I'm not sure I know the correct word though so let me break it down, how I think about it.

In the past we've seen him do the wrong things for the right reasons. We've seen him do the wrong things for the wrong reasons. Now, finally, at the end, he does something right, and for the right reason.

Everything he'd done up to that point was selfish in nature. He had something to gain, or at least, to not lose.

At the end though, he was going to die. He HAD nothing left to loose. He saved Luke for Luke's sake, not his own.

It was his first truly selfless act.

So maybe I did use the wrong word. But the above is what I meant. Regardless of what he knew to be fact at any given time, he always did the selfish thing, that is, until the end, when it became self-LESS.

[borgmatrix]

In the past we've seen him do the wrong things for the right reasons. We've seen him do the wrong things for the wrong reasons. Now, finally, at the end, he does something right, and for the right reason.
I'm glad you stated it this way, because I guess this is where I'm getting hung up. Clearly the intent on Lucas' part is that Anakin did the right thing for the right reason. I guess my feeling is that we just have to accept it, because the reality is that we don't really know what's going on in his head. How do we really know that he wasn't single-mindedly trying to save Luke, regardless of everything else, like he was with Padme? It was an easy choice here, because no one else was going to get screwed except Sidious who deserved it anyway. But if things were different and saving Luke, or trying to, would have damned the galaxy, would he have made the same choice?

It's not like trying to save Padme was a bad. It was the fact that he turned on Mace and the Jedi and damned the galaxy to a dictatorship in order to accomplish that that made him wrong. In ROTJ, he's also betraying the side he's supposedly on, but fortunately for him it happens to be the evil Galactic Empire (as its called in the ANH opening crawl :)), so its not an issue.

I guess another way of saying it is this: the scenario's too easy. I mean, if Palpatine had been frying Padme in his office in that scene in ROTS, Anakin wouldn't have hesitated for a moment. He would have chucked Palps right out the window. Of Force shoved him. Or lopped off his head, like he did to Dooku. In ROTS, way back then as a young knight, he would have done that. So of course he saves his son from Sidious in ROTJ.

But would Vader have betrayed the Emperor if it had been anyone else? Would he have given his life to save Han Solo? Or Lando? Or some other innocent he'd never seen before. Somehow, I'm doubting it. You know? Anakin has consistently shown an interest in saving family: first his mother, then his wife, now his son. He's always been that way. So that doesn't do anything for me as far as proving he's a different person. But if he had saved some other innocent. Or made his move against Sids to spare the galaxy further oppression, rather than to take the throne himself. That would have spoke to me of change. Do you see where I'm coming from?

[Jonan Mephi]

How do we really know that he wasn't single-mindedly trying to save Luke, regardless of everything else, like he was with Padme?

Because Vader was dying.

Nothing in the world would have mattered after that. He tried to save Padme not because he didn't want her to die, but because he didn't want to lose her via death. The difference is that one is a loss on her part, the other a loss on his.

If it were a single-minded action, like the above, why would he save Luke at all? Vader would be dead in a few minutes anyway, so why would he care? The only explanation is that he saved Luke, for Luke's own sake, not his own.

Of course, like all things, I could be geek-ily over-analysing this, but that's just how it comes across to me.

[borgmatrix]

Because Vader was dying.
If it were a single-minded action, like the above, why would he save Luke at all? Vader would be dead in a few minutes anyway, so why would he care? The only explanation is that he saved Luke, for Luke's own sake, not his own.
But you're assuming Vader thought things through thoroughly and knew he'd die for certain. I can't imagine he'd know that for sure. Would he know that Sidious would throw lightening back and that that would be enough to finish him?

You know, this might be where he acted rashly. :wink: I don't see why he couldn't have just Force-shoved or Force-choked Sidious. Or just pulled his saber to him and then lopped Sids in half. Picking him up and physically throwing him with only one hand...that seems like making it a lot harder than it needed to be. And it cost him his life.

Of course, like all things, I could be geek-ily over-analysing this, but that's just how it comes across to me.
Nah, I think that would be me. :laughing: I realize what the intent of the scene is, but I'm just not sure it was portrayed in the most effective manner.

[Jonan Mephi]

Interesting convo this has been, no?

Well this is where I take theatrical clues, that being the score. It was too moving, with the crescendos and all to be anything but an elevating moment, not a declining one.

I guess, in the end, it really doesn't matter as Lucas obviously decided for us what happens, eh?

So here's to a good days talk with ya. :beer:

:rockon:

[RollaFett]

Man, a good SW discussion and I missed it? Balls.

Ok, here's my 2 cents...as usual, I like what borg has to say. Anakin/Vader has acted selfishly his entire life, and none of it has really been associated with quickly acted out choices (ie, rash :wink:).
Now, here's the interesting aspect that no one has brought up in regards to him saving Luke. If Vader was so certain he was going to die, then why would he have allowed Luke to waste so much time and effort by dragging him all the way down to the hanger bay? If his act was so self-less, because he was a goner anyway, then let Luke know that in the throne room so he has more time to escape and continue to live the rest of the life you just gave him!
I think one can make an argument that he saved Luke with the slim hope that perhaps they might actually have a shot at ruling the galaxy as father and son.

[Raganork8]

Did Anakin Truly return to the light in ROTJ?

Yes.:yes:

[borgmatrix]

Interesting convo this has been, no?
It has indeed. And now we've got a couple more jumping in. Perhaps another couple days of discussion can be sustained.

Now, here's the interesting aspect that no one has brought up in regards to him saving Luke. If Vader was so certain he was going to die, then why would he have allowed Luke to waste so much time and effort by dragging him all the way down to the hanger bay? If his act was so self-less, because he was a goner anyway, then let Luke know that in the throne room so he has more time to escape and continue to live the rest of the life you just gave him!
:laughing: Here, though, I might have to put the potential blame on Luke. The guy's such a goody-two-shoes that Anakin probably tried to tell him and he wouldn't listen. You know, Luke coulda really benefitted from that supposed Sith power to extend life in that moment. I guess Sids, if he ever really had it, never bothered to share with Vader.

I think one can make an argument that he saved Luke with the slim hope that perhaps they might actually have a shot at ruling the galaxy as father and son.
Yeah. Again, as JM was saying above, I definitely acknowledge that Lucas was clearly indicating otherwise with all the various movie "cues" and Anakin's obvious return to the Light as evidenced by his spirit with Kenobi and Yoda. But, yeah. Given the way things actually played out, its a bit hard for me to completely forget Vader's offer in ESB. Or the fact that he's consistently tried to save family, so what's so different here?

But you know, in thinking about the whole damning the universe to try to save Padme thing, I'm almost wondering whether he's done it again here with Luke. As has been brought up in other threads, perhaps the Empire was better for the galaxy in terms of strengthening it and bringing stability. Regardless of whether the Empire was good, though, by killing the Emperor, Anakin has potentially screwed the galaxy again, at least in the short term. With a power vacuum at the top now, I'd guess in the aftermath of ROTJ we'd see various Moffs and Imperial governors warring over the top spot. From stability, the galaxy was possibly thrown into instability and disarray. Sidious was the one guy holding everything together. With his death, I'm not sure we'd have instant surrender from the rest of the Empire.

Anakin might have acted a bit, er, rashly here. :wink: Like I'd said before, I'm not sure why he couldn't have just Force-shoved Sids down that shaft, thereby saving his own life and putting himself in a position to "secure a peaceful transition" for any new government. Anakin could have temporarily maintained the peace as leader while allowing for the Senate to be re-established and a new leader to elected. That's assuming, of course, that he had indeed turned over a new leaf.

So, very possibly, Anakin might have once again looked to his own interest to keep a family member alive at the expense of what was best for the galaxy.

Did Anakin Truly return to the light in ROTJ?

Yes.:yes:
What a genius. Where have you been, Rags? You coulda spared us these pages of debate with this brilliant insight. :wink:

[Jonan Mephi]

Now, here's the interesting aspect that no one has brought up in regards to him saving Luke. If Vader was so certain he was going to die, then why would he have allowed Luke to waste so much time and effort by dragging him all the way down to the hanger bay? If his act was so self-less, because he was a goner anyway, then let Luke know that in the throne room so he has more time to escape and continue to live the rest of the life you just gave him!


You know, I hate to say this, but I think this is just an editing thing. The scene with the emporer has come to a close, and while Lucas should have expounded there, he didn't. In the next scene with Luke, he -needed- to be boarding the shuttle to leave. Lucas hadn't tossed in the "You already have..." bit yet, so he did it there. The later scene may have been shot BEFORE the other one, and they ran short on time for editing, reshooting. If you remember, the Ep4 & 5 were shot, and edited, in a very hap-hazzard fashion.

I think we just have to assume a few things, like what borg suggested. Maybe he DID say something along the way, or maybe he didn't have the strength yet to be heard without having his helmet removed, which Luke didn't do until right before boarding the shuttle.

So...I'm not sure there really is anymore to debate is there?

[Raganork8]

I'm not convinced that the theories defending that he did not return were sound enough.


I think the argument is "why did Vader let Luke Carry him?"

Well let's ask this: Do you think Vader asked to be saved?

If so; where do you get that from; If not then it must have been part of Luke's doing and not his.

We saw him specter-ed in the end; which we learned is a trait of Jedi and not sith; everyone we've seen as a Specter has accepted their dying and is fine with it; the pursuit of power through life (A Sith attribute) is not present.

Obi Wan: Sacrificed himself

Yoda: Was perfectly fine with passing

Vader/Anakin: Was fine with passing after seeing his son.

maybe there was some greed there; perhaps Vader wanted to see BOTH his children and in that wanted to be saved.

but I think the obvious thing to say is that he must have known he would be badly damaged if he attacked Palpatine; or he knew he was going to die. It's simple science electricity and a power suit = short circuit; yet there was something in him that was willing to accept death (something he couldn't do well in the prequels even with his enemies I.e. Dooku, Windu) and embrace it in the face of danger for another.

I'm not sure A sith or someone not affiliated with the Lightside of the force would even do that to begin with.

Now if we were asking the question of Vader was 100% redeemed in moral standards I might argue a different opinion; but, I think it's quite clear that Vader/ Anakin re-joined the lightside...even if you want to argue that it was just for a moment; it was enough to be granted the afterlife by the force.

[Jonan Mephi]

I leave this thread (for now) with the following thought:

"...never turn. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." ~ Luke

Just maybe, having his son forgive him, was all that it took and his salvation wasn't his own doing, but Luke's.

[RollaFett]

:laughing: Here, though, I might have to put the potential blame on Luke. The guy's such a goody-two-shoes that Anakin probably tried to tell him and he wouldn't listen. You know, Luke coulda really benefitted from that supposed Sith power to extend life in that moment. I guess Sids, if he ever really had it, never bothered to share with Vader.
Heh, heh...well I was only half-serious with that thought anyway.


Yeah. Again, as JM was saying above, I definitely acknowledge that Lucas was clearly indicating otherwise with all the various movie "cues" and Anakin's obvious return to the Light as evidenced by his spirit with Kenobi and Yoda. But, yeah. Given the way things actually played out, its a bit hard for me to completely forget Vader's offer in ESB. Or the fact that he's consistently tried to save family, so what's so different here?
Right. It is clear what Lucas was going for within the story. However, if one were to look at those events from a different viewpoint, I think it's very plausible (half-serious or not) that Vader may have still had that "ruling the galaxy" ambition floating about when he killed Palps. IF he doesn't realize he's going to die by doing so, why wouldn't he feel that way?
But you know, in thinking about the whole damning the universe to try to save Padme thing, I'm almost wondering whether he's done it again here with Luke. As has been brought up in other threads, perhaps the Empire was better for the galaxy in terms of strengthening it and bringing stability. Regardless of whether the Empire was good, though, by killing the Emperor, Anakin has potentially screwed the galaxy again, at least in the short term. With a power vacuum at the top now, I'd guess in the aftermath of ROTJ we'd see various Moffs and Imperial governors warring over the top spot. From stability, the galaxy was possibly thrown into instability and disarray. Sidious was the one guy holding everything together. With his death, I'm not sure we'd have instant surrender from the rest of the Empire.
Hmmm...nah. I'm quite content with the thought that the Rebels vanquished the entirety of the evil Galactic Empire at the close of ROTJ and the galaxy lived in peace afterwards. It get's to EU if you think further on it, and I'd rather not.


You know, I hate to say this, but I think this is just an editing thing. The scene with the emporer has come to a close, and while Lucas should have expounded there, he didn't. In the next scene with Luke, he -needed- to be boarding the shuttle to leave. Lucas hadn't tossed in the "You already have..." bit yet, so he did it there. The later scene may have been shot BEFORE the other one, and they ran short on time for editing, reshooting. If you remember, the Ep4 & 5 were shot, and edited, in a very hap-hazzard fashion.
I don't disagree. Although I'd guess it wasn't so much about needing to show anything with the shuttle as much as it was simply a matter of wanting to get the hell out of that throne room. They had been in there for a long time and it was time for another location by that point, IMO. But overall, I think we're thinking along the same lines here.



So...I'm not sure there really is anymore to debate is there?Oh, but that never really stops us around here! ;)

Now if we were asking the question of Vader was 100% redeemed in moral standards I might argue a different opinion; but, I think it's quite clear that Vader/ Anakin re-joined the lightside...even if you want to argue that it was just for a moment; it was enough to be granted the afterlife by the force.Couldn't agree more.
Yes, it's very clear Lucas has Anakin redeemed. There's very little to debate with that. However, as you also mention, as viewers, we certainly can debate over whether or not he should've been redeemed. In fact, I believe I started a thread about that very issue a few years back....ahhh, yes...here it is. (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=9462)

[borgmatrix]

Hmmm...nah. I'm quite content with the thought that the Rebels vanquished the entirety of the evil Galactic Empire at the close of ROTJ and the galaxy lived in peace afterwards. It get's to EU if you think further on it, and I'd rather not.
I wasn't looking to draw on EU, though. It's just the feeling that its too simplistic to believe that killing Sidious and Vader brings automatic and complete victory for the RA. It seems sensible to me that there'd be other competent officers, not unlike Tarkin, throughout the Empire. Killing the Sith duo might have begun a gradual decline for the Empire and brought eventual defeat. But I'd expect the conflict to continue, potentially for years.

[Jonan Mephi]

I wasn't looking to draw on EU, though. It's just the feeling that its too simplistic to believe that killing Sidious and Vader brings automatic and complete victory for the RA. It seems sensible to me that there'd be other competent officers, not unlike Tarkin, throughout the Empire. Killing the Sith duo might have begun a gradual decline for the Empire and brought eventual defeat. But I'd expect the conflict to continue, potentially for years.


I'm not so sure that's the case. Of course, I'm not sure about the opposite either. When Hitler fell, things pretty much collapsed right away. Sure there was a cool down period, but for the most part, it happened quickly. However, things went on a bit after Saddam fell. It all depends on the mindset of the armies and other leaders waiting in the wings. I tend to think that (seeing all the officers affraid of Vader) that most of the empire were just being led, without truly being "followers". I could see many happy people at the fall of Sidius and Vader.

[Raganork8]

I wasn't looking to draw on EU, though. It's just the feeling that its too simplistic to believe that killing Sidious and Vader brings automatic and complete victory for the RA. It seems sensible to me that there'd be other competent officers, not unlike Tarkin, throughout the Empire. Killing the Sith duo might have begun a gradual decline for the Empire and brought eventual defeat. But I'd expect the conflict to continue, potentially for years.

you're right; but, the story was about Anakin; the galactic civil war was just a byproduct of it.

That always bothered me I must admit. The war would have concluded the same way even if Luke had failed. But I always rationalized it with GLs words about the story being about Anakin.

I also don't know if Vader and Palps were big deals; I mean of course they were; but, what evidence do we have that they were holding the GE together?

[Jonan Mephi]

you're right; but, the story was about Anakin; the galactic civil war was just a byproduct of it.

That always bothered me I must admit. The war would have concluded the same way even if Luke had failed. But I always rationalized it with GLs words about the story being about Anakin.

I also don't know if Vader and Palps were big deals; I mean of course they were; but, what evidence do we have that they were holding the GE together?

I'd say the biggest evidence is that fact that he declared martial law, thereby forming the empire in the first place. I'm sure that was the only way he could do it, otherwise, he wouldn't have had to. That meant extreme opposition. I think it's clear the empire only existed because of him.

[Raganork8]

I'd say the biggest evidence is that fact that he declared martial law, thereby forming the empire in the first place. I'm sure that was the only way he could do it, otherwise, he wouldn't have had to. That meant extreme opposition. I think it's clear the empire only existed because of him.

Exist, yes, sustained?

I Think not; after putting the military together I'm sure he just kicked back and let the fear of him keep people within the Empire in line.


I don't think Palpatine's being alive (as well as Vader) is what kept the Empire Together.

Even within his death I think the Empire would go on; maybe a loss of moral and perhaps some bickering over power; but, that was probably instilled by Palpatine in the first place.

[RollaFett]

I wasn't looking to draw on EU, though. It's just the feeling that its too simplistic to believe that killing Sidious and Vader brings automatic and complete victory for the RA. It seems sensible to me that there'd be other competent officers, not unlike Tarkin, throughout the Empire. Killing the Sith duo might have begun a gradual decline for the Empire and brought eventual defeat. But I'd expect the conflict to continue, potentially for years.
Maybe I wrote incorrectly. Basically what I meant is that the finale of ROTJ, and the film saga as a whole, leaves the clear impression that the Rebels had won, evil was vanquished, the end. We see the Star Destroyer Executor destroyed when it crashes into the Death Star, we see the Emperor killed (the ruler of the Empire), we see Vader die (Emperor's right hand man), and the Death Star destroyed. We see celebrations on various worlds, and the Emperor's statue toppled on Coruscant.
Did all of that happen a little too quickly? Perhaps, but I think that Lucas simply wanted the point made that that was the end of the Empire, period. You see it in the film.

I also don't know if Vader and Palps were big deals; I mean of course they were; but, what evidence do we have that they were holding the GE together?Oh stop it. You're just bitter that your boy, Dooku, didn't get a chance to run the Empire, aren't you? :P

[Tovor]

Originally Posted by Tovor http://galacticsenate.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=981714#post981714)
I don't agree. First of all, if anything, Palpatine was hinting that Plaguise may have created Anakin.

Well, we disagree about that then. From the first time I saw that scene, I was 100% convinced that he was subtly revealing that he, Palpatine, was responsible for creating Anakin.
"Lies, deciet, creating mistrust are his ways now." --Spoken about Dooku, but I believe that it represents the ways of the Sith. Palpatine was a manipulator, who would use and twist anything and everything to his advantage. He took advantage of the chance to grab Anakin's undivided interest, by playing on the Jedi's confusion and difficult to explain origins. Yes, he was hinting that Plaguise may have created Anakin, but that's all that it was, a hint, just as he hinted that Plaguise's knowledge may be able to save Padme. He spoke not the truth, but only what Anakin wanted to hear, or what he needed for Anakin to hear to get the still loyal Jedi to commit to him.

Just like what the devil would have done, by mixing the lies with the truth.

My question to myself is:
Am I more impressed with Palpatine's ploy whether he had a hand and the forethought in Anakin's creation...
...or whether he simply made Anakin believe that he did by twisting the truth and taking advantage of the opportunity which he cleverly prepared (the opportunity, that is)?
I believe it is the latter.

[RollaFett]

Hmmm...interesting. I like your idea, but still prefer to think that Palps actually did play a hand in creating Anakin.

[Tovor]

The problem for me, in believing that Palps created Anakin, is that it negates the idea that Anakin was born to be good and do good things only to be corrupted by evil and swayed from the chosen path. If Palpatine created Anakin, then it meant that Anakin was born to be evil and do evil things, and his time spent as a Jedi was only a diversion from that.

[RollaFett]

I disagree. What do we, as viewers, really know about the prophecy? From what I recall, we know very little, specifically, about the prophecy. Hell, Mace and Yoda don't even seem to be fully convinced near the end that it was even read correctly at all.
Who's to say how he's supposed to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One, as long as he fulfills it?

[borgmatrix]

"Lies, deciet, creating mistrust are his ways now." --Spoken about Dooku, but I believe that it represents the ways of the Sith.
Exactly. So what reason do we have to believe this power even existed? Sidious is a liar, plain and simple. Look at his words after Anakin has joined him. When asked about the other Jedi throughout the galaxy, Sidious says "Their betrayal will be dealt with." Huh? What betrayal? It's outright fiction, but he's acting here like some betrayal actually occurred. And the only other person in the room is Vader. There isn't anyone else around to see this show he's putting on. He's living in his own self-created fantasy world. "See, I told you the Jedi were planning on taking over." A lie. "When they discover what's happened here, the Jedi will kill both of us and all the senators." They're going to kill all the senators, too? Not only is it a lie, it's completely preposterous.

I don't see any reason to put any stock in a single thing Sidious says. I'm certainly not convinced he's all that powerful. All it took was Yoda blasting him over the desk and he was ready to run for it. Yeah, I'm sure this is the guy who was powerful enough to create Anakin. :rolleyes: Now Plagueis maybe. He could have been behind it. But given how full of :censored: Sids is, I can't really believe that, either.

Sids told Anakin exactly what he wanted to hear. That's the only thing we can really say for sure. Drawing anything beyond that is putting complete faith in the words of a guy who's dishonest, morally challenged, and just plain evil. And I can't do that. There at least has to be something there for me to sink my teeth into to actually believe that or consider it.

[Tovor]

^ Amen!

[RollaFett]

Y'know borg, I hate it when you mince words like that. Tell us how you really fell, why dont'cha?! ;)

For the record, I have no problems with anything you just said about Sids. He is a lying, manipulative scumbag. That said, I still do believe he was the guy behind Anakin's conception.

[Raganork8]

Oh stop it. You're just bitter that your boy, Dooku, didn't get a chance to run the Empire, aren't you? :P

This may be true; but, Do you really think the empire was only head together by those two 'men'?

[Jonan Mephi]

I'm going to go off on a real tangent here because of the whole "Anakin being born to be good" thing.

I may be wrong, but I am not convinced Palps correctly interpreted his vision of Anakin bringing order to the galaxy in the first place. Remember, the future is always vague (so says Yoda). So what could it have meant? Perhaps, just maybe, it simply meant a Skywalker, not Anakin specifically. At the time though, he was the only one, so Palps assumed it was him. Anakin / Vader did NOT bring order to the galaxy as I see it. What with all the rebels and other opposing factions, how can the formation of the empire be considered order? So if not Anakin, then who? Luke. We never really got a midi count on the guy. Who is to say it wasn't higher than his fathers, even though he was too emotional and insecure to realise it all.

Now, I'm just theorizing here, but the idea has some merit. Was Palps simply wrong from the beginning?

Perhaps this needs a new thread, now that the topic has gone slightly astray...

[Raganork8]

Perhaps...


I think it's safe to say that both Palps and the Jedi order were right AND wrong.

Anakin did bring balance to the force (which is what I remember the prophecy mentioning) but bringing order to the galaxy is a totally different different thing.

Anakin was the ONE for it all, nevertheless, he did it and it was because of him terrible things and one GREAT thing happened. The sacrifice was, perhaps, an unspoken part of the prophecy; there would not have been a balance had Anakin not turned into Vader

[Tovor]

I'm going to go off on a real tangent here because of the whole "Anakin being born to be good" thing.

I may be wrong, but I am not convinced Palps correctly interpreted his vision of Anakin bringing order to the galaxy in the first place. Remember, the future is always vague (so says Yoda). So what could it have meant? Perhaps, just maybe, it simply meant a Skywalker, not Anakin specifically. At the time though, he was the only one, so Palps assumed it was him. Anakin / Vader did NOT bring order to the galaxy as I see it. What with all the rebels and other opposing factions, how can the formation of the empire be considered order? So if not Anakin, then who? Luke. We never really got a midi count on the guy. Who is to say it wasn't higher than his fathers, even though he was too emotional and insecure to realise it all.

Now, I'm just theorizing here, but the idea has some merit. Was Palps simply wrong from the beginning?

Perhaps this needs a new thread, now that the topic has gone slightly astray...
It really did not have anything to do with Palp's "vision", but a lie. He pushed that vision on Vader, saying that Vader brought peace, to further make Vader think that he had made the proper choice in joining the Sith. Remember, he sent Vader to end the war that the Sith started; he spoke of the Sith bringing peace to the galaxy, when it was the Sith who had caused the charade of a war to enable his rise to power in the first place.

It was not Luke at all. It was Luke who gave Anakin reason to come back to the good side, who made his father realize the wrong in the path he was on; but it was undoubtably Anakin who restored balance, according to Lucas himself. He restored balance by destroying the Sith, which were the direct cause of the imbalance in the first place.

[Jonan Mephi]

Now here's where I think a lot of us lose sight of something vital. Something I tried to point out earlier. I will try and put it more into perspective.

----------

Concept: At one point, there were three movies. Period. The decision to make the prequels didn't come until later, even though script ideas were present.

Question: If the prequels had then never been made, would you still feel the story was about Vader / Anakin?

Thought: We are all (most of us) viewing this series as an afterthought to all six movies. This will have a great impact on the perspective of the one posting.

----------

Concept: The Harry Potter films (my other passion). We all know this story. It's about Harry right? One would assume so based on the books / movies released thus far.

Question: What happens if fifteen years from now another set is done detailing the rise of Voldemort and how, through his actions, Harry comes to be the way he is.

Thought: Does the nature of the original story change? Is it now ALL about Voldemort? Or is it two separate, but related stories?

--------

Forgive my non-star-wars reference there, but if you think about the series in terms like the above, it really does bring a new point of view.

[Raganork8]

It really did not have anything to do with Palp's "vision", but a lie. He pushed that vision on Vader, saying that Vader brought peace, to further make Vader think that he had made the proper choice in joining the Sith. Remember, he sent Vader to end the war that the Sith started; he spoke of the Sith bringing peace to the galaxy, when it was the Sith who had caused the charade of a war to enable his rise to power in the first place.

It was not Luke at all. It was Luke who gave Anakin reason to come back to the good side, who made his father realize the wrong in the path he was on; but it was undoubtably Anakin who restored balance, according to Lucas himself. He restored balance by destroying the Sith, which were the direct cause of the imbalance in the first place.

I agree with everything you said;but, the VERY last part.

I learned from the films that The Jedi were to blame for the imbalance as well as the sith. Their ways were so out-of-touched that they lead the chosen one to fall to the dark side.

If the order was possibly a bit more understanding and sympathetic to Anakin's situation and not so stiff about it; he may not have been so likely to believe what Palps was saying.

Please don't take that as if Palps isn'tto blame at all; he shares a majority of the blame.

I've said itin the past; that balance means Balance. Every Jedi has shown some form of "dark sidedness" when confronting an enemy and coming out successful

TPM: Obi Wan, after seeing Qui gon being killed, used his anger to attack and defeat Darth Maul

AOTC: No one benefited from the battle with Dooku; Obi wan attempted to live by the rules and failed.

ROTS: The Sith got their revenge! No one "good" came out on top

ANH: Nothing Obi-Wan sacrificed himself (but you could argue his intentions on letting Luke see him die was supposed to bring Luke to the tipping point in learning the Force)

TESB: though he did use his aggression Luke was unable to defeat Vader; BUT, we see that he gets through to Vader a little because in the end Vader seems to be a little sympathetic to Luke being his son.

ROTJ: Luke's anger defeats Vader.

If Anakin had not become vader I don't think we could assume that Vader would have been in the position to defeat Palps.

So in my opinion the Sith AND the Jedi in Anakin/Vader allowed him to bring balance, not one or the other

[Raganork8]

Now here's where I think a lot of us lose sight of something vital. Something I tried to point out earlier. I will try and put it more into perspective.

----------

Concept: At one point, there were three movies. Period. The decision to make the prequels didn't come until later, even though script ideas were present.

Question: If the prequels had then never been made, would you still feel the story was about Vader / Anakin?

Thought: We are all (most of us) viewing this series as an afterthought to all six movies. This will have a great impact on the perspective of the one posting.

----------

Concept: The Harry Potter films (my other passion). We all know this story. It's about Harry right? One would assume so based on the books / movies released thus far.

Question: What happens if fifteen years from now another set is done detailing the rise of Voldemort and how, through his actions, Harry comes to be the way he is.

Thought: Does the nature of the original story change? Is it now ALL about Voldemort? Or is it two separate, but related stories?

--------

Forgive my non-star-wars reference there, but if you think about the series in terms like the above, it really does bring a new point of view.

A good point; but, key points in my mind about the OT are the various discussions about how Vader can or Cannot be turned back from the Dark Side.

THAT became the goal; aside from Luke our to most knowledgeable characters are Yoda and Obi Wan they insist on Luke Confronting Vader; this to me shows me that while Luke may be who we are following; but, Vader is the focus, not even the emperor gets the amount of dread that Vader gets

"You must confront Vader!"

you could argue (even though I really don't believe this myself) that they want Anakin Defeated because they know he is the chosen one and they fear his power may grow to the point of no return, this would leave the assumption that Lucas the whole story together by TESB.

[Tovor]

Darn it, I had started a great topic about the balance of the Force, but cannot find it in any of the 3 SW sections. It was an older topic, but I had bumped it a few months ago, I wonder if it's in the archive.

Rolla? It was titled "Balance of the Force". Any idea?

[borgmatrix]

I learned from the films that The Jedi were to blame for the imbalance as well as the sith. Their ways were so out-of-touched that they lead the chosen one to fall to the dark side.
No. They didn't lead him there. Or let him fall. Or anything like that. People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Anakin knew the difference between right and wrong. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He chose to walk along that path anyway. That's not anyone's fault but his own. Even Palpatine can't be blamed here. In the end, it came down to Anakin having to make a choice, and he made it.

[RollaFett]

^^ Might you mean this? (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=2&highlight=balance+force+tovor)

[RollaFett]

No. They didn't lead him there. Or let him fall. Or anything like that. People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Anakin knew the difference between right and wrong. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He chose to walk along that path anyway. That's not anyone's fault but his own. Even Palpatine can't be blamed here. In the end, it came down to Anakin having to make a choice, and he made it.
Right. Not to mention that if there was no dark side to fall to, well...uhhh, Anakin doesn't fall.

[Jonan Mephi]

THAT became the goal

I think the emphasis here shouldn't be on THAT but rather on BECAME. So, even if you don't realise it, you just acknowledged my argument. It was one thing, then became another. It was a story about Luke, then became a story about Anakin. Two separate, but related, stories.

they want Anakin Defeated because they know he is the chosen one

And this is what I was trying to say earlier. I don't think he was the choosen one. I think that was Palpatine's mistake (or manipulative plan, I don't know). Vader only brought a semblance of order to the force / galaxy. It was Luke who finalised it. I still think Luke was the actual chosen one.

--------

Another question: if ten years from now they make another set of movies (lol) which details the life and times of Palpatine before he became a senator, would the story then be about him? I ask only because he also dies in the same movie as Anakin.

--------

Just throwing some things out for discussion.

[Tovor]

^^ Might you mean this? (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=2&highlight=balance+force+tovor)
Yes, yes, to Rolla-Wan we trust! Can that be taken out of the archives and bumped up?

[Tovor]

Another question: if ten years from now they make another set of movies (lol) which details the life and times of Palpatine before he became a senator, would the story then be about him? I ask only because he also dies in the same movie as Anakin.
From a certain point of view, yes. Palp's point of view, that is.

A fascinating question you've posed, btw. Kudos for new insights and questions to ponder. :ok:

[Raganork8]

And this is what I was trying to say earlier. I don't think he was the choosen one. I think that was Palpatine's mistake (or manipulative plan, I don't know). Vader only brought a semblance of order to the force / galaxy. It was Luke who finalised it. I still think Luke was the actual chosen one.

--------



Luke didn't do anything though; what balance did he bring?

It was Anakin who defeated the Sith; where all others had failed he overcame the darkside and brought himself back from the Darkside and defeated Palpatine.

Luke got shocked nearly to death


Perhaps you're suggesting that because Luke was the reason anakin did what he did then Luke is actually the chosen one; but, If you're using that argument; then you must believe that Leia is the chosen one; because the whole adventure with Luke started with him trying to save leia and continuing to want to save leia until the end.


So if we're speaking of motivations then IMO you have to be prepared to say that either Leia or Luke AND Leia are the chosen one/s

[Jonan Mephi]

So if we're speaking of motivations then IMO you have to be prepared to say that either Leia or Luke AND Leia are the chosen one/s

My answer may surprise you, but yeah. I'll go with that.

:w00t:

Historically speaking, in written material (and movies), the "chosen one/s" are always last of the family line. There are some rare cases otherwise, but for the most part, this holds true. Once a chosen one comes along, there are no more.

[Raganork8]

No. They didn't lead him there. Or let him fall. Or anything like that. People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Anakin knew the difference between right and wrong. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He chose to walk along that path anyway. That's not anyone's fault but his own. Even Palpatine can't be blamed here. In the end, it came down to Anakin having to make a choice, and he made it.


They didn't lead him there; but, they were a factor. His keeping Padme a secret in fear of being thrown out of the order most certainly had an impact on his life. Then, we see in the films, that he feels alienated by the council; I'm prepared to believe that, yes, since he is young and different and powerful some of the other senior members like Windu probably give him a bit of the cold shoulder.

I don't believe Anakin had a real good reason to trust the Jedi Order; their views on life rejected a love he had for Padme and that in turn effected his choices later on, even if they were wrong, it was to save his wife from death. I mean for that I can understand WHY he did what he did; that doesn't excuse it; but, it does shed light on what his thought processes were. He was killing people just to kill people; he thought this was going to save his way; whereas the Jedi order essentially told hi to let her go.

A desperate man did something desperate; It's not uncommon and it's partially palpatine's fault for feeding him lies and the Jedi order for having rules that don't account for the simple human emotions.

Because they were brainwashed from the beginning doesn't mean that Anakin is going to subscribe to their way of thinking.

Right. Not to mention that if there was no dark side to fall to, well...uhhh, Anakin doesn't fall.

So unless there was a pre-existing evil Anakin would not have done what he did?

Is this no different than saying unless a person has heard of anger they won't get angry?

Perhaps he wouldn't have adopted a sith identity; but, he was falling from the side of the Jedi to begin with.

[Raganork8]

My answer may surprise you, but yeah. I'll go with that.

:w00t:

Historically speaking, in written material (and movies), the "chosen one/s" are always last of the family line. There are some rare cases otherwise, but for the most part, this holds true. Once a chosen one comes along, there are no more.


That may be true; but, if you accept that Idea then you accept that idea.

I would want your thought to be whole and not center on Luke who essentially the middle man; Leia deserves credit to.

I give the chosen one credit as the one who took the action.

He defeated the sith; Luke did not make him; he doesn't know Luke.


Seeing the PT I now think he did it more for his wife; his kids are what is left of that Love and thusly he did it for Padme and his children; Luke did not put him under any obligation.

And if we're saying that because he killed a lot of innocent people and caused chaos in the galaxy can we not give Luke that same sentence?

All the people who died on the Deathstar? the countless battles between the episodes?

What about the Guards he forced choked in ROTJ?

You could argue that the empire WOULD have been peaceful if a rebellion had not started; it all depends on your opinion; but, both cause a tear in the galactic relations, both have killed 'innocent' people on the other side (and possibly people on neither side).

so...yeah

[Jonan Mephi]

Im about out of time for today, but before I go, I leave you with this.

Luke (http://www.biblical-baby-names.com/meaning-of-luke.html)

I find it hard to believe the meaning behind the name is trivial. He did in fact, either personally, or through proxy, deliver the light, er...order.

Until tomorrow, and we debate some more.

:hug:

[Raganork8]

Indeed; but, we're talking Balance not light


He brought the light back to Anakin perhaps; but, Anakin used it.


It's like saying whose is the warrior?

the Knight with the Sword or the Blacksmith who made it?

[RollaFett]

So unless there was a pre-existing evil Anakin would not have done what he did?

Is this no different than saying unless a person has heard of anger they won't get angry?

Perhaps he wouldn't have adopted a sith identity; but, he was falling from the side of the Jedi to begin with.Y'know, sometimes things are not as complicated as we make it out to be.
Within the fictinal universe of SW, if Palpatine hadn't existed, and there was no Sith prescence during Anakin's lifetime, then no, I do not believe he would've turned to a non-existing evil.
Of course, with my belief that Palps was responsible for creating Anakin in the first place, the point becomes moot. You need Palps to even have Anakin, so as a result, he'd eventually turn to the darkside.

[RollaFett]

And if we're saying that because he killed a lot of innocent people and caused chaos in the galaxy can we not give Luke that same sentence?

All the people who died on the Deathstar? the countless battles between the episodes?

What about the Guards he forced choked in ROTJ?

You could argue that the empire WOULD have been peaceful if a rebellion had not started; it all depends on your opinion; but, both cause a tear in the galactic relations, both have killed 'innocent' people on the other side (and possibly people on neither side).

so...yeah

Whaaaatttt?!?! What did Luke do wrong to deserve such an idictment?
He didn't start a war, he didn't form the rebellion, he didn't cause chaos, he didn't kill innocent people.
As far as he knew, which happened to be correct, he was fighting against the evil galactic empire.

[borgmatrix]

They didn't lead him there; but, they were a factor.
There are always factors. But you can't extend that to say the Jedi played even a significant role in causing the Force imbalance. When Sidious brought the Jedi Force-users from numbering in the thousands (10s of thousands perhaps?) to just a handful, that's when the imbalance was occurring.

[Raganork8]

Whaaaatttt?!?! What did Luke do wrong to deserve such an idictment?
He didn't start a war, he didn't form the rebellion, he didn't cause chaos, he didn't kill innocent people.
As far as he knew, which happened to be correct, he was fighting against the evil galactic empire.

Yeah; thats assuming everyone in the Galactic Empire is evil; this simply cannot be true.

And Don't get me wrong; I don't subscribe to this belief; but, facts are facts; he killed people in the Empire who may or may not have just been following orders protecting something that gave THEM security.

When a stormtrooper shoots a rebellion pilot it's always going to seem wrong; but, let's be frank not EVERYONE in the rebellion can be a hero and a good guy as well as vice versa.

This is a big debate in Philosophy is it morally correct to kill soilders who are just following orders? or should we just instead go after the leaders and end it that way? It's hard to say; but, the fact is that people are dying

There are always factors. But you can't extend that to say the Jedi played even a significant role in causing the Force imbalance. When Sidious brought the Jedi Force-users from numbering in the thousands (10s of thousands perhaps?) to just a handful, that's when the imbalance was occurring.

Is it?

So why did Qui Gon bring Anakin in before the vision of Darth Maul? the imbalance seemed to exist BEFORE TPM from what I saw. They talk about the choosen one who will bring balance, if at that time they did not know about the Sith why would they need such a thing.

I do put the Jedi at partial blame for the imbalance; there was at leat one thing that Palpatine said that I did believe, and that is when he explains to understand the force you must know it as a whole, not just the dogmatic view of the Jedi.

Why would this be untrue?

palpatine had no compassion he only knew one side so his statement applies to him as well. Anakin brought Balance because he was able to bring the Sith and the Jedi in one IN A BALANCE and exstinguish the overbearing side (at this time the sith; at TPM it was the Jedi)


Because the Jedi did not account for things like Love and Anger basic human emotions they were doomed; they did not abide by the law of balance and therefore put forward their own destruction.

[RollaFett]

Yeah; thats assuming everyone in the Galactic Empire is evil; this simply cannot be true.I seem to recall a passage in the opening crawl where it is specifically referred to as "the evil galactic empire". Simply from that, that makes them the bad guys in the Star Wars universe.

And Don't get me wrong; I don't subscribe to this belief; but, facts are facts; he killed people in the Empire who may or may not have just been following orders protecting something that gave THEM security.Another passage in that crawl referred to the time as being in a "civil WAR". It's wartime. Remember, there were two sides trying to kill each other.

This is a big debate in Philosophy is it morally correct to kill soilders who are just following orders? or should we just instead go after the leaders and end it that way? It's hard to say; but, the fact is that people are dyingI don't think deep philosophical thought should be required to decipher who's good and bad in the OT. It's made pretty clear to us, both with the written word (opening crawl) and dialogue/actions.
And yes, it is morally correct to kill soldiers who are just following orders. You have to remember, if you don't kill them, their "order" is to kill you. It's not murder that we're talking about here. Maybe they're on the wrong side, but that's another matter altogether. And as far as going after the leaders go, well, that usually ain't so easy considering that they are generally not on the frontlines with the troops. At least Tarkin wasn't in ANH.

[Raganork8]

I don't think deep philosophical thought should be required to decipher who's good and bad in the OT. It's made pretty clear to us, both with the written word (opening crawl) and dialogue/actions.
And yes, it is morally correct to kill soldiers who are just following orders. You have to remember, if you don't kill them, their "order" is to kill you. It's not murder that we're talking about here. Maybe they're on the wrong side, but that's another matter altogether. And as far as going after the leaders go, well, that usually ain't so easy considering that they are generally not on the frontlines with the troops. At least Tarkin wasn't in ANH.


I wasn't saying that; from where we watch the film yes the Empire, the structure is evil. I don't think that equates to everyone in the empire being evil.

It's not Murder? Isn't it? I'm not talking about Stormtroopers firing on you and you shoot back; I'm talking about the explosion of the deathstar; not everyone in that station was apart of the destruction of Alderaan (did I spell this wrong?)

Yes they are on the wrong side; but, some people don't have a choice on what side to be on; this leads to the question What were they supposed to do? right?


I don't know; it's a long Philosophical debate thats being going on for a long time; I took a whole course on it this spring and there's no answer that doesn't have a counterpoint.

But this is way off topic and I'm only keeping it alive to be a devil's advocate. it'd be interesting to debate this further

[RollaFett]

I still contend destroying the Death Star was not murder, even for those who had nothing to do with the destruction of Alderran. Remember, the Death Star is a military installation. Or even simpler, the Empire's ultimate weapon. In that respect, it's just like a navy ship in our world. Only a tiny handful of sailors on a ship have anything directly to do with it firing on troops or enemies, but if the enemy were to sink that ship, even the cooks would suffer.
If it's a time of war, and you're part of the military, sorry but you're fair game.

[Raganork8]

Perhaps

From a certain point of view.

[Jonan Mephi]

I still contend destroying the Death Star was not murder...

It is unfortunate that I am not going to have the time to really dig in today, but I did want to take a moment to say that I fully agree with the above statement.

People tend to judge things based on what they know of reality. Star Wars isn't real, the characters sense of ethics and morality are based on far different values and ideals than ours, and they have different religions.

If not carefull, the phrase "from a certain point of view", can be overused. Therefore, in the context of the prevention of continued deaths, things like blowing up the death star were justified.

[Raganork8]

ok

I'm not in a well enough mood to keep repeating my point so I concede.

[Tovor]

Yes, yes, to Rolla-Wan we trust! Can that be taken out of the archives and bumped up?
Never mind. I will start a new thread as soon as I get the chance, with a grand new intro. You just stand by and wait with baited breath. :howdy:

[RollaFett]

Oops, forgot to bring this to the powers that be. Are you sure you don't want it taken out of archive?

[Momin327]

I think he did go back. Luke was extremely persuasive in the things he said and did with Vader in ROTJ. Two moments stand out in my mind. When Luke said "Then my father is truly dead", he didn't actually mean; He was giving Vader something to think about. And when Luke said "I am a Jedi, like my father before me", that was the beginning of his return. It made him think "Wow, even after all I've done to him, to the galaxy, he still believes in me." Everybody had given up on Anakin except Padme and Luke.

[Tovor]

Oops, forgot to bring this to the powers that be. Are you sure you don't want it taken out of archive?
Positive, I am, but thanks anyway. There are many ancient posts in that thread from people who no longer post so if anybody responds to them it will just get sloppy. I just started a new thread for anyone to continue if they want, with my initial starting posts from that topic, as well as my essay on "the Dark Side Within".

http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=1001987#post1001987

[DarthLazious]

Yes he did return to the lightside of the Force.