Han Solo an anti-hero?

[Dark Helmet]

Does anyone else beside me believe that Han Solo is an anti-hero in ANH only? He's kind if a jerk to people and he is only looking out for himself until the end when he comes back and becomes a full hero.

[Sarah-Leia]

I'm sure everybody believes that. It seems to be true. He doesn't exactly support the hero's cause or stuff.

[Darill Cyllem]

I think the question is actually whether Han continues to be an anti-hero after ANH. I think i might argue no - he shows his selflessness in returning to fight at the Battle of Yavin, then proceeds to help with the evacuation off Hoth. We have sympathy for him on Bespin, and don't think: oh, thank the Force that loud-mouthed braggart's getting frozen in carbonite. By the time of ROTJ, he's a general and leading the ground assault on the Forest Moon.

[Miasmo]

But remember that he was intending to leave at the beginning of ESB and they even made a suggestion in Cloud City. Remember Han and Leia's conversation?

Han: We'll soon be gone.

Leia: Then you're as good as gone, too." Or something like that.
That's what they were talking about, right?

It was pretty much his rescue from Jabba's palace that formed the permanent tie.

[Jacno]

I would have to agree with Miasmo.
Han was in it for 2 things: Money, and Leia...

[Sarah-Leia]

I would have to agree with Miasmo.
Han was in it for 2 things: Money, and Leia...

Although you have to argue that he also after a while seemed to feel sympathy for the Rebels' cause. Ugh.

[RollaFett]

I think that he always felt sympathy for the Rebel's cause, but didn't consider it to be his problem unless he was going to get paid for his troubles.
The rescue on Tatooine did cement his Rebel status, as others have said, and led him to 'hero' status. But before that, he was definately the classic anti-hero.

[Darill Cyllem]

While I think you've all got valid points, it seems counter to the anti-hero persona to go check out an Imperial Probe Droid out of the goodness of one's heart (ESB).

[Jacno]

check it out, make sure the empire isnt on their way, if they are, get the heck outta there before the rebels get blasted to bits!

[Javen]

He is an anti-hero, yes.

ESB- yes.

ROTJ - no

[Miasmo]

He could've just been keeping his own interests in mind. At that point in ESB, he was already helping the rebels out, which you could argue was so he might be able to call in a favor down the line. Well he was about to leave, but no harm in earning a few extra bonus points for checking it out ... and saving a princess from being captured by Imperials.

You gotta admit, it would be hard for the Alliance to say no if he left but came back needing a favor.

[Darill Cyllem]

That's very true - and i think he's definitely an anti-hero in ANH. I think this is less firm in ESB, and goes out the window come ROTJ.

[Tovor]

All good points as pointed out above, but I have to doubt whether he was truly the anti-hero even at the start of ESB. He did risk his life to try to find, and save Luke, when he had already indicated he was in a rush to get going (getting mad at Chewie for taking something apart...). I have to wonder, seriously wonder, if not for his debt to Jabba, and his prior run-ins with Jabba's bounty hunters (like the one on Ord Mantell), would he have even tried to leave the rebels at the start of ESB?

The Han who said goodbye and stood watching Luke go off to battle on Hoth was not the same Han who watched Luke go off to battle on Yavin. I also don't doubt the regrets Han implied when speaking to General Reiken about why he needed to leave the rebels.

Yes, he was still planning to leave the rebels when on Cloud City, but again if not for his debt and the mark on his head, I don't think he would have wanted to leave even then.

[Darill Cyllem]

^Agreed. :) You made the point much better than i did, with more examples.

[Miasmo]

The Han who said goodbye and stood watching Luke go off to battle on Hoth was not the same Han who watched Luke go off to battle on Yavin.Great example. Thinking back on it, I wonder it that scene was intentionally inserted into ESB or filmed like that so you could see the emotional differences in such similar scenes.

[Sarah-Leia]

The Han who said goodbye and stood watching Luke go off to battle on Hoth was not the same Han who watched Luke go off to battle on Yavin.


How many different Hans are there, then? Huh? HUH?

[Tovor]

How many different Hans are there, then? Huh? HUH?
14.7 :yes:

^Agreed. :) You made the point much better than i did, with more examples.
I think I have another example as well, that only just occured to me, due to what Miasmo said below. v

Great example. Thinking back on it, I wonder it that scene was intentionally inserted into ESB or filmed like that so you could see the emotional differences in such similar scenes.
Thinking back on it myself, I wonder if we were meant to observe not only the difference in how Han viewed Luke going off to battle on Hoth from when they parted on Yavin, but in how Luke viewed Han once again leaving the rebels to pay off his debt in their most desperate hour. I think that the difference in how Luke viewed Han at that moment is proof to us, based on how well Luke knew him by that point, that Han had changed considerably and was no longer the anti-hero.

I'm going to skip a line. Not to change the topic, but because that was a long pair of single sentences. Please disregard any implied or perceieved pauses and continue below with no further delay.

On Yavin, Luke was dismayed by Han's preparation to leave because he knew Han to be the self-centered anti-hero who made it his choice to turn his back on the rebels.
But on Hoth, Luke showed no dismay, frustration, or judgement on Han's leaving, because he knew that Han had proved himself (presumably between movies) time and time again, and had no choice. Yes, Luke saw that in Han, and perhaps it wasn't only Han's expressions but Luke's, which were meant to show us how much Han had changed.

General Reiken gave us an example as well, in his praise of Han's fighting skills (or did he say "great pilot" or "great fighter"? I can't recall.) and his remorse at losing Solo. In the time preceding TESB, Han couldn't have been much of an anti-hero if he had earned such praise from a high ranking rebel base leader, could he have?

Yes, Leia herself was surprised in ROTJ that Han had volunteered to lead the rebel strike team, but I think that despite script and film-length limitations, we were meant to see how much Han had become the anti-antihero early in TESB.

[luke]

I feel hes an anti-hero untill the end of ANH. because he is in ESB going to go to Jabba but thats something eveyone would wat him to do because he has a bad debt that would make Jabba put a large price on his head, and if hans dead what help is that to the rebels?

[thepepgal]

He starts off the anti hero but turns into a hero. It is some time between ANH and ESB. He mentions to Rieekan that he has to leave to pay off Jabba's debt. He has spent 3 years with them by this time which is not something an anti hero would do.

But in someways it could be argued that he was a hero all along since he selflessly rescue Chewie hence the life debt. (But that is a discussion for a different section.)

[RollaFett]

Let's not go overboard. Yeah, he helped Chewie, but that doesn't mean he still wasn't an antihero. Being an antihero doesn't make Han evil or a villian. It merely means that he has his own agenda that will generally be his main priority. It also doesn't mean that he will ignore doing the right thing all the time either.
That's what makes an antihero so captivating, because you never really know what they'll do next. It generally won't be something evil or terrible, but it may not be heroic either.

[luke]

^
I agree

[Mothman]

The Han who said goodbye and stood watching Luke go off to battle on Hoth was not the same Han who watched Luke go off to battle on Yavin. I also don't doubt the regrets Han implied when speaking to General Reiken about why he needed to leave the rebels.

IMO, Mr. Solo's change from anti-hero to hero began when he said goodbye to Mr. Skywalker on Yavin. After Luke verbally puts him in his place, Han realizes the sacrifice that Luke is willing to make and sheepishly mumbles "May the Force be with you" out of the side of his mouth. That is when the change started to happen - and when the Falcon flew out of the Yavin sunlight and blew Mr. Vader's ship from the trench, his journey to the hero side was complete.




:bye:

[Zedekk]

All good points as pointed out above, but I have to doubt whether he was truly the anti-hero even at the start of ESB. He did risk his life to try to find, and save Luke, when he had already indicated he was in a rush to get going (getting mad at Chewie for taking something apart...). I have to wonder, seriously wonder, if not for his debt to Jabba, and his prior run-ins with Jabba's bounty hunters (like the one on Ord Mantell), would he have even tried to leave the rebels at the start of ESB?

The Han who said goodbye and stood watching Luke go off to battle on Hoth was not the same Han who watched Luke go off to battle on Yavin. I also don't doubt the regrets Han implied when speaking to General Reiken about why he needed to leave the rebels.

Yes, he was still planning to leave the rebels when on Cloud City, but again if not for his debt and the mark on his head, I don't think he would have wanted to leave even then.
Good points well attended and all. However, I am more disappointed that Han was not more the anti-Hero longer. In ANH, classic stuff, loved it. ESB he's getting soft and blah, it's like he's a whole different person almost, and yes, people do change, etc & yadda yadda, but I would have liked to see Han be more like Han in ANH than anything else. That change over the other 2 movies was a discredit to the smuggler and scoundrel that the character was originaly portait as.

[RollaFett]

I disagree. I think he still had a bit of the anti-hero swagger in ESB. Yes, he helped the Rebels at the end of ANH, and for a few years afterwards, but he also makes it very clear, in ESB, that his intentions are to leave and get back to taking care of himself again. There is never a mention of returning after handling the Jabba trouble. Instead, General Reikken says "You're a good soldier, I hate to lose you."
Han easily could've said, "Don't worry, I'll be back after taking care of this stuff", but he didn't.
IMO, it wasn't until after his Rebel friends risked their lives to rescue him in ROTJ that he fully ditched the anti-hero persona.

[Zedekk]

I still maintain that Han was more the true anti hero in ANH and going soft in ESB because he was surrounded by those freedom loving rebels with their hot princess. Nothing like high moral principles and a hot chick that wants to make out with you to make you forget who you truly are. Yes he said he had to take care of all that Jabba business but he does so reluctantly and even begrudgingly so. Han changes because of the people that surround him. Now, if he had been surrounded by the scum and villany that we find him being surrounded by when we first meet him, then ESB would have been different.

[RollaFett]

Oh, well since you put it that way. ;)
Seriously though, I can definately agree with that. He had been with Leia, Luke and the rest of the Rebels for three years and had most likely started down the path we fully see after his rescue in ROTJ.

[Fish1941]

IMO, Mr. Solo's change from anti-hero to hero began when he said goodbye to Mr. Skywalker on Yavin. After Luke verbally puts him in his place, Han realizes the sacrifice that Luke is willing to make and sheepishly mumbles "May the Force be with you" out of the side of his mouth. That is when the change started to happen - and when the Falcon flew out of the Yavin sunlight and blew Mr. Vader's ship from the trench, his journey to the hero side was complete.


I don't think so. I think that Han's hero journey had a few miles to go after ANH. He was still planning on leaving the Rebellion in TESB. In fact, Leia had pointed this out after their arrival on Bespin.

[RollaFett]

^ EH? Do we actually agree? be still my heart. :wink:

[Zedekk]

there's another thing that bugs me about Lucas changing the story regarding Han and his anti-heroish ways, Greedo shooting first. That was a massive "casteration" for the anti-hero character, and just totally uncalled for.

[RollaFett]

I choose to ignore that unfortunate change. In my mind, Han always shoots first.

[Zedekk]

Thank you, RollaFett!

[Sarah-Leia]

Probably an hero, not anti-hero. Appears to be anti-hero but really wants to help.


:hmmm:

[RollaFett]

C'mon Sarah...he is clearly an anti-hero in the very first version of Star Wars. Remember, Han shoots first....NOT Greedo. Also, think about what "anti-hero" means. It doesn't make him a villian, or a bad guy.

[luke]

^ I agree,
he could start to be considered a hero maybe at the end o ANH but before that no way.