The end of "Return of the Jedi"

[QuigonWindu]

It's been a long time. But since HBO has been airing Star Wars movie marathons nonstop for the past couple weeks and I've seen each movie at least a couple times I have realized something.

I am seriously bothered by the end of Return of the Jedi; Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin standing together looking at Luke. Is there really any reason they should forgive him? I mean; he came through at the end and saved the day. But does that truly make up for everything he did. He brutally murdered every Jedi Child and a good amount of Jedi Knights. He also lead the Empire in "cleansing" the galaxy of all the Jedi who remained.

So; while he did fix the mistake he made of bringing down the republic; all of the murders he committed can't be forgiven in my opinion. What are your thoughts on this?

[Blagr Diath of Advil]

although this is very true. i think they may have accepted him because Luke believed so much that there was good in him, but noone else did. However luke proved them wrong and showed that there was good in him. Darth Vader or Anakin there was always good in both of them, and in the end he realized that and was reunited with his son and his friends and realized his rightful place. i mean u didnt see Emperor Palpatine standing there.
*Blagr Diath*

[thepepgal]

Actually it was the fact he brought balance to the force. He became reoriented to the light side and he learnt somehow to retain his form in the force. Maybe it was his high midicolarian count. :scratchchin:

[borgmatrix]

So; while he did fix the mistake he made of bringing down the republic; all of the murders he committed can't be forgiven in my opinion.
Yeah, but the past doesn't exist. It's done. It's over. The present time is all there is. In ROTJ, when Yoda and Ben were standing there with him, Anakin was a good man. He had re-joined the Light Side. That was the reality of the moment. It wouldn't have made sense for them to condemn him for something he no longer was.

[STar war spUNK]

meh jedi are all about redemption. perhaps that is why he returned to his ep 3 self as in pre-darth vader. which actually bothered me.. yeah hayden is hot and all, but poor sebastian shaw getting taken out of that scene!

[Raganork8]

meh jedi are all about redemption. perhaps that is why he returned to his ep 3 self as in pre-darth vader. which actually bothered me.. yeah hayden is hot and all, but poor sebastian shaw getting taken out of that scene!


Yeah that bothers me too; but it's Hayden...

also I don't know if they could condemn and be able to retain their force bodies at the same time.

that would be anger and that would negate the process of becoming one with the force and accepting things for the better.

[thepepgal]

meh jedi are all about redemption. perhaps that is why he returned to his ep 3 self as in pre-darth vader. which actually bothered me.. yeah hayden is hot and all, but poor sebastian shaw getting taken out of that scene!

I agree as I always thought it should have been Seb Shaw as Anakin did age within the suit of Vader so the image should have aged.

The only reason that could be said was that since he was more machine than man maybe this is why the age reversal to when he was more man than machine. The force is for living things.

[DblDwn]

But Hayden's hot and all so it's ok................:blink:

[Raganork8]

Yeah...

j/k

It's kind of understanable because we see Anakin as Hayden for the majority of the movies, so from an audience stand point it would make sense to see Anakin as Hayden; but, in that case we can say the same with Obi Wan the difference here is that We've seen obi wan Change throughout the first three and there's is no difference in him in the final three so in that case Obi can stay
:yoda: is :yoda: and never changes from :yoda: so:yoda: can stay.

I guess...

[Sluggo]

The simple answer is they shouldn't have made the change in the first place. Both Luke and the audience know what the old man in the Vader suit looks like. The change is just confusing for everyone and makes necessary all of these theories about Jedi afterlife and such.

If one is OK with the change on the grounds that it is important that the two trilogies be tied together, then not only should Anakin have been "corrected", but Ben and Yoda as well. Adding only Hayden to the scene only makes matters worse, no matter how you look at it. IMHO.

[Raganork8]

The simple answer is they shouldn't have made the change in the first place. Both Luke and the audience know what the old man in the Vader suit looks like. The change is just confusing for everyone and makes necessary all of these theories about Jedi afterlife and such.

If one is OK with the change on the grounds that it is important that the two trilogies be tied together, then not only should Anakin have been "corrected", but Ben and Yoda as well. Adding only Hayden to the scene only makes matters worse, no matter how you look at it. IMHO.


the only reason why i disgaree is because Anakin died in the first trilogy and the others died in the second

I think if we explained this in lore it would say something like Anakin ahcieved the ability to cross into the jedi after life at this stage and that would be Anakin Hayden but died later on.

Obi Wan in his older Age and Yoda as well, it just so happens that only Anakin died much later after realizing the power. We're never sure when each character knows the ability so we can maybe explain it that way

[thepepgal]

the only reason why i disgaree is because Anakin died in the first trilogy and the others died in the second

I think if we explained this in lore it would say something like Anakin ahcieved the ability to cross into the jedi after life at this stage and that would be Anakin Hayden but died later on.

Obi Wan in his older Age and Yoda as well, it just so happens that only Anakin died much later after realizing the power. We're never sure when each character knows the ability so we can maybe explain it that way

But Anakin didn't die, he survived in a environmental suit and called himself Darth Vader. Padme said there was still good in him and Luke sensed the good and the struggle it caused in by ROTJ.

The fact that GL left the removal of the mask to show what he look liked just before his death means he should have left it the original way as this is how Anakin looked just before his death. Anakin returned to the light side to reject Palpatine as his master and kill him. He even mentions to Luke that he was saved by his son (ie returned to the light side).

Yoda tells us how he and Obi Wan learnt the skill to survive whole in the force after death by listening to Qui Gon. It was the last discussion that Yoda and Obi wan have in ROTS. Obviously their 20 years to concentrate meant they were able to keep their image ghost like while Qui Gon was just a voice.

[Raganork8]

But Anakin didn't die, he survived in a environmental suit and called himself Darth Vader. Padme said there was still good in him and Luke sensed the good and the struggle it caused in by ROTJ.

The fact that GL left the removal of the mask to show what he look liked just before his death means he should have left it the original way as this is how Anakin looked just before his death. Anakin returned to the light side to reject Palpatine as his master and kill him. He even mentions to Luke that he was saved by his son (ie returned to the light side).

Yoda tells us how he and Obi Wan learnt the skill to survive whole in the force after death by listening to Qui Gon. It was the last discussion that Yoda and Obi wan have in ROTS. Obviously their 20 years to concentrate meant they were able to keep their image ghost like while Qui Gon was just a voice.


i agree with most; but, we can't be sure Yoda actuually knew how to use this skill. He says he's learned the path immortality so that can be left as he learned the process of doing it. If it requires training then I assume Yoda would have to train himself. Though he is strong I doubt that means that he doesn't have to train.

But Mostly I agree with you guys about the change being silly. I'm just giving a devil's advocate view.

About Anakin/Vader thing. Yeah I Suspect that you're right but from a directors stand point having Shaw at the end in the Original ROTJ makes sense because we don't see any pictures of Anakin.

From a Directors stand point after doing the whole new trilogy Anakin is asscociated as Hayden Christensen, The few minutes we see Shaw as Vader don't outweight the few hours we see Anakin as Hayden (vice versa) Plus from a "uneducated" film goers point of view Shaw is Vader and Hayden is Anakin, they probably don't recognize Shaw as Anakin or even Hayden as Vader in ROTS, what they prob see is evil anakin until he is put in the suit.

Make sense?

[DblDwn]

To be fair Anakin was called Darth Vader before he entered the suit.

I think raganork is spot on. When Anakin turned to the Dark Side he theoretically died. In ROTJ Obi-Wan tells Luke that Anakin is "more machine now than man," at the moment he ceased to be a man, and became a machine, that is when he died in the Jedi sense. That being the case it does stand to reason that, in the afterlife, that is how he would appear. As he did at the moment of his theoretical death, not necessarily at the moment of his actual death.

And I still stand by what I said 3 years ago about how the ability to retain life after death, as only Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin are able to do, is linked to Anakin being the Chosen One. No one else was close to Anakin but these 3 others and no one was able to retain their identities after death until Anakin was found.

[Raganork8]

To be fair Anakin was called Darth Vader before he entered the suit.

I think raganork is spot on. When Anakin turned to the Dark Side he theoretically died. In ROTJ Obi-Wan tells Luke that Anakin is "more machine now than man," at the moment he ceased to be a man, and became a machine, that is when he died in the Jedi sense. That being the case it does stand to reason that, in the afterlife, that is how he would appear. As he did at the moment of his theoretical death, not necessarily at the moment of his actual death.

And I still stand by what I said 3 years ago about how the ability to retain life after death, as only Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin are able to do, is linked to Anakin being the Chosen One. No one else was close to Anakin but these 3 others and no one was able to retain their identities after death until Anakin was found.


I never thought of that last part; but, that's very true.

You're right anakin was Vader before he entered the suit; but, I still think people see him as Evil Anakin, people really recognize Vader as the suit, which is wrong; but, that's what people see. So I think Hayden's face represents Anakin.

but My Lore Explanation is what I believe. When Anakin turned to the dark side he thusly died and became vader, when Vader killed palpy did he become 100% anakin again? I doubt it, so in the living force you are retained as the whole you were when you're connection with the force was most complete. For Yoda it happened to be when he died and the same for Obi wan, that's cause they hadn't turned to the Dark side, had either of them became a sith i think the moment before they did would be the image we expect to see.

What I always wondered was if luke recognized Anakin when he appeared. or was it like:

Luke: "Obi wan...Yoda...who's that young dude with the farrah fawcet hair? oh oh oh dad..."

[Sluggo]

This is exactly what I was talking about. You have to invent Lore to clarify and quantify what is happening in the films. But shouldn't the films be self-contained enough where they don't need plot-holes smoothed over? George could have done this with the inclusion of Qui-gon Ginn dialogue in Episode III which would have gone to some length to start to explain how one retains ones identity after death, but George cut that too.

[Raganork8]

I agree with the Qui gon thing, I think it should have been in there because it would have connected this movie with Episode I

I don't agree with the movies having to be "self contained" because these "Plot holes" spark debates like this and that's part of why the movie is so enjoyable because you can personalize the movie and story to what you think.

If the whole thng was meticulously explained it would be too long and there would be no kind of debates making it thusly boring outside of the theater. The Great Thing about star wars is that it lives off the screen as well as on.

[Coyote850]

In my view Luke/Ben/Yoda don't have the right to forgive Anakin/Vader for all the crimes he commited. So what about all the younglings he murdered in cold blood, all the other things he did? Those young Jedi don't have a say in forgiving Anakin/Vader? Some crimes should never be forgiven, what Anakin/Vader did is one of them.

[Raganork8]

In my view Luke/Ben/Yoda don't have the right to forgive Anakin/Vader for all the crimes he commited. So what about all the younglings he murdered in cold blood, all the other things he did? Those young Jedi don't have a say in forgiving Anakin/Vader? Some crimes should never be forgiven, what Anakin/Vader did is one of them.


I don't know why we're only going on about the younglings...

thing about all the innocent people the rebellion killed when they blew up the death star(s) or in some of the other attacks.

For this matter why don't we mention all the people Vader killed between ROTS and ROTJ or the sand people Anakin Killed.

Either way we can't dwell on what somebody has done over what they're doing in Star Wars. Anakin brought Balance to the force and thusly saved countless lives in the process. He made mistakes in the past and he doesn't have to be forgiven...But Obi Wan is like his brother and Yoda is Yoda so would you rather see the ghost bickering and arguing with each other?

[DblDwn]

Even murderers in the real world are sometimes paroled from prison and deemed rehabilitated enough to reenter society. And they are not classified as The Chosen One.

I also agree that the Yoda/Qui-Gon discussion should have been included in ROTS. I've read the script and it does help to clarify what is going on as far as the retention after death goes. I mean he cut the scene, and that's fine, but we at least could have gotten it on the deleted scenes on the DVD. Did they even film the voiceover for that scene? I forget if they were able to get Liam or not.

[Raganork8]

Even murderers in the real world are sometimes paroled from prison and deemed rehabilitated enough to reenter society. And they are not classified as The Chosen One.

I also agree that the Yoda/Qui-Gon discussion should have been included in ROTS. I've read the script and it does help to clarify what is going on as far as the retention after death goes. I mean he cut the scene, and that's fine, but we at least could have gotten it on the deleted scenes on the DVD. Did they even film the voiceover for that scene? I forget if they were able to get Liam or not.


I agree it was a poor choice to keep it out of the DVD, I would have like to have seen it; but, it would have not helped in this discussion IMO.

[DblDwn]

Well no but I was just saying......................

[Raganork8]

lol, I know I just wanted to clarify.

I wonder if Anakin Ghost has a Metal arm...

[thepepgal]

lol, I know I just wanted to clarify.

I wonder if Anakin Ghost has a Metal arm...

No, he wouldn't have a metal arm as he isn't solid matter. :wink:

The fact they pasted Hayden's head on Seb's body meant he had two real hands again.

[DblDwn]

It looked more like they removed Shaw completely and added Hayden entirely. For the simple fact that, in the shot, Hayden appears to have his own body and not the larger body of Sebastian Shaw.

[Raganork8]

It looked more like they removed Shaw completely and added Hayden entirely. For the simple fact that, in the shot, Hayden appears to have his own body and not the larger body of Sebastian Shaw.


That's what I thought as well.

[Sluggo]

I also agree that the Yoda/Qui-Gon discussion should have been included in ROTS. I've read the script and it does help to clarify what is going on as far as the retention after death goes. I mean he cut the scene, and that's fine, but we at least could have gotten it on the deleted scenes on the DVD. Did they even film the voiceover for that scene? I forget if they were able to get Liam or not.

Nah. Liam wanted nothing to do with a SW movies after Episode I. They couldn't get him back for Episode II. When Yoda was meditating, Ben Burtt dropped a take of Liam yelling "Anakin!" from Episode I and recorded the gargled "Nooo!" himself. So Ben Burtt gets a partial credit for Qui-gon's line. And a Solid D- from Sluggo.

And as far as the photoshop of Hayden's head...
Have you guys even watched the originals? Since 2004?

A little research never hurt anybody.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a117/Sluggomatic2000/oneofthesethings.jpg

The body is very much the same.

[thepepgal]

Nah. Liam wanted nothing to do with a SW movies after Episode I. They couldn't get him back for Episode II. When Yoda was meditating, Ben Burtt dropped a take of Liam yelling "Anakin!" from Episode I and recorded the gargled "Nooo!" himself. So Ben Burtt gets a partial credit for Qui-gon's line. And a Solid D- from Sluggo.

And as far as the photoshop of Hayden's head...
Have you guys even watched the originals? Since 2004?

A little research never hurt anybody.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a117/Sluggomatic2000/oneofthesethings.jpg

The body is very much the same.

Thanks Sluggo.

The OS had said they had put Hayden's head on Seb's body when they released the movie onto dvd. Alot of fans had asked why Hayden was wearing classic brown jedi robes instead of his black one so they admitted it.

[DblDwn]

Nah. Liam wanted nothing to do with a SW movies after Episode I. They couldn't get him back for Episode II. When Yoda was meditating, Ben Burtt dropped a take of Liam yelling "Anakin!" from Episode I and recorded the gargled "Nooo!" himself. So Ben Burtt gets a partial credit for Qui-gon's line.

This much I did know.

Regarding the screenshot comparison it is interesting that the body's look similar but also that you can see more of Hayden't neck than of Shaw's. So if they did Photoshop it then they decided to give us a little bit more of Hayden. I never really considered that they just stuck his head on but I guess it does make sense since that is what they did with Christopher Lee in every fight scene. Perhaps I never paid that much attention because it isn't really that big of a deal though.

[Raganork8]

This much I did know.

Regarding the screenshot comparison it is interesting that the body's look similar but also that you can see more of Hayden't neck than of Shaw's. So if they did Photoshop it then they decided to give us a little bit more of Hayden. I never really considered that they just stuck his head on but I guess it does make sense since that is what they did with Christopher Lee in every fight scene. Perhaps I never paid that much attention because it isn't really that big of a deal though.


I guess that sounds right, I don't understand why they couldn't use a shot of anakin standing in Episode III and just put different clothes on him.

Doesn't Shaw's arm move in the OT ending and Anakin's doesn't?

[DblDwn]

Easier to crop a head than a body I guess.

[thepepgal]

Easier to crop a head than a body I guess.

Also they are putting a new special effect on an existing special effect. Anakin's head is clear of Yoda so it would have been simpler to remove just that portion than the whole body.

[Kam Solusar]

They could have tried to age Hayden somewhat, either with makeup or with digital effects. That would have at least made it a little less jarring.

[STar war spUNK]

Hm, I was wondering if anyone has the full screen version of ROTJ on DVD and if they could tell me how the celebration sequence is set up?

I remember on the full screen SE VHS they would show Obi-Wan, then Yoda, then they would pan to Anakin. It made the scene much more dramatic. However after I upgraded to widescreen DVDs, instead Anakin just pops up by himself which totally did not capture the same effect.

[luke]

I feel that Vader was forgiven because even though he destroyed the order and killed many Jedi he fulfilled the prophecy and destroyed the emperor because even if he had killed the emperor earlier as Anakin. someone else would have taken the emperors place after he was wiped out and they may not be prepared for that evil in that time (example: Kueller in the book "The New Rebellion")

[sithewok]

I concur.

[RollaFett]

Nah. There is nothing presented in the films to indicate any other great threat after the Emperor. And remember, that's what we're talking about: the films.
So, with that said, I've always had a problem with Vader/Anakin's "redemption". To me, his crimes and evil deeds far outweigh his killing of Palpatine.

[luke]

yes, but over how many thousands Vader killed how many MILLIONS would the Emperor have killed? and how many more BILLIONS would the Emperor have killed if Vader had not put a stop to it at that moment? also in killing the Emperor Vader saved Luke who was the only hope for re-establishing the Jedi order.

[Darill Cyllem]

yes, but over how many thousands Vader killed how many MILLIONS would the Emperor have killed? and how many more BILLIONS would the Emperor have killed if Vader had not put a stop to it at that moment? also in killing the Emperor Vader saved Luke who was the only hope for re-establishing the Jedi order.

Their only hope? No... there was another....
:)

[RollaFett]

^ Right!
Besides, luke, I didn't say that Vader didn't do the right thing in killing Palps. It was absolutely the right thing to do.
Unfortunately, it was the first 'right' thing he had done in over 20 years, and too many lives were lost in the meantime because of him. I can't accept his redemption.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I also can't accept his redemption, for the same reason, but I think it was actually the force that redeemed and 'forgave' him, rather than a conscious decision by anyone. Of course, Yoda and Obi-Wan were at one with the force and so by default would 'forgive' him.

[Raganork8]

I think it's not about redemption...

He had done some other good things, he killed ozzel...

[luke]

I think it was actually the force that redeemed and 'forgave' him, rather than a conscious decision by anyone. Of course, Yoda and Obi-Wan were at one with the force and so by default would 'forgive' him.

thats a good thought because no one else other than luke that was not one with the force forgave Vader as far as I could tell (even though Leia attempted redemption of his good name by naming one of her sons Anakin) and luke was the one who tried to make him change his mind in the first place and believed in him the whole way through.

Their only hope? No... there was another....
:)

yes but for some reason I doubt that Leia would save the jedi ways and then re-start an academy as luke did.

[RollaFett]

I think it's not about redemption...

He had done some other good things, he killed ozzel...


LOL! You were joking, right?

JMH- I like you're line of thinking, I think. But if you're right, then the Force is a little screwed up, IMO.

luke- Remember, we're talking about films in this section, NOT EU.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Yeah Rolla, I don't really like the fact that you could be redeemed for one good action, when you committed so many atrocities. Unless I'm missing something there seems to be a significant plot hole in why the force would 'forgive' all those actions. :scratchchin: I suppose he did only turn to the darkside due to his love for Padme and being duped by Sidious. Still, he did rampage around for some 23 years.

[Sluggo]

I feel strangly overdressed posting in this thread.

I'm wondering if some of the problems we are having is that we are expecting forgiveness where the force might not work that way. Maybe it is simply an 'ying-yang' thing, where it is black and white. If you are not in the light side, you are in the dark side. I don't know if any of the grey area between the sides exists but it seems to be more an invention of the EU authors.

So maybe the reason Anakin joined the force at the end of ROTJ was that he chose to. He learned how to do this (somehow) and once he returned to the light side, he merged with the force at his death.

I'm not necessarily fond of this idea, but it cuts away any complications that we might be unnecessarily bringing to the whole mess.

[RollaFett]

I like complications, so screw it. :wink:

You actually make some sense, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Like I said, if the Force is so black and white and can find forgiveness with Vader, then it's a little screwed up, IMO.

[Darill Cyllem]

yes but for some reason I doubt that Leia would save the jedi ways and then re-start an academy as luke did.
I dunno - Yoda seemed to think she might, in his conversation with Obi-Wan when he brings up the other.

[Orandhite]

It would be very hard to forgive someone who killed a load of kids, massacred people just because they would not talk to him (like the guy on Tantive IV at the start of A New Hope) and would chop off his own son's hand.

However...he did sacrifice himself (well, he died, but as he was so evil anyway, was it really a sacrifice!) AND bring balance to the force by killing Palpatine and then, rather considerately, dying to ensure the end of the line of Sith! (Yes, I know I have posted something similar in another thread, but I am not too bright, so it takes a while for me to think of something new!)

So...he did only do one thing to receive his forgiveness, but he did do a pretty BIG one thing. :nahnah:

[Darill Cyllem]

^Agreed. Overall, it seems to me that the lesson is that the Force is about forgiveness and redemption and there's room for a lot of both.

[Orandhite]

Good point.

A question though...if The Force is an entity which consists of a shared consciousness bordering on omnipotency (the limits of the Jedi/Sith are because of inadequacies in the individuals rather than The Force itself), would forgiveness/redemption register with it?

What I mean is, forgiveness is mostly about our own ablility as fallible and inadequate beings to be able to cope with things that happen. If The Force is bordering on omnipotence, then it would accept everything that happened as it would just be the next step on the path of life. Although...if The Force is all about balance, then forgiveness would be the main driving force of The Force (that was tricky to write!) and so it would be very interested in it.

So I have managed to argue myself in and out of that point! :)

[Sluggo]

I still think we are being too Western in our thought about the force and need to think of it on Eastern terms. From my prospective, the force isn't a conscious entity. It isn't God or god or the unmoved mover or anything philosophers would name. It is an energy field created by all living things. It binds the galaxy together. It is like a giant still pond, with all that live in it moving about and creating ripples that others (especially those atune in the force) can feel and influence. In its natural state, the force needs to be balanced. When it is out of balance, the 'will' of the force is to restore that balance. I think 'will' is a poor choice of words for George to use as it could imply a consiousness for the force.

So Anakin turned to the good side by leaving the dark side. This brought balance to the force. No repentance or atonement was necessary for his past 'sins' as his bringing balance fixed any inequality in the level or status of the force.

Now, as I've said before I don't like this as much as I'd prefer a conscious forgiveness for Anakin's deeds (which is tricky because he would need either forgiveness from all he killed or hurt and this would require consent of who knows how many hundreds of beings OR this would require sentient knowledge by the force and I don't think that is the case) because my own personal beliefs would be more comfortable with the circumstances. But I'd rather be correct in my knowledge than believe something that feels good but is wrong. So to me, Anakin didn't recieve forgiveness because I don't think that is the system George set up. Balance can be achieved naturally but forgiveness is something that has to be consciously given.

[Orandhite]

Okay, first off, brilliant response. Really brilliant. That sounds like a much better way to think of The Force which is what I believed it was from the OT films.

However, the only question I would then ask about is when Qui Gon said to Anakin to listen to the midichlorians as they would talk to him. Is this just his way of explaining the way that balance would be restored (therefore being figurative), or was he being literal in that The Force actually communicates in a sentient way?

[Sluggo]

Thanks!

The midichlorians are a bit trickier. I don't know if they would need to be classified as intelligent life or not. But I guess that is unimportant. The midichlorians seem to register the status (ie, the 'will') of the force much as a geiger counter registers and reports radiation. The Jedi get their readings from the midichlorians and act to where ever they are pointed. I don't know if this would include specific instruction or just a general prompting in the right direction and the Jedi have to decipher the messages accordingly.

[Orandhite]

Damn, you are good!

So the midichlorians would just be the translators between sentient life and The Force. That makes sense. Good answer.

[Darill Cyllem]

Yes, thank you, Sluggo - that is precisely what I was inelegantly trying to express. :)

[Orandhite]

You're expression was fine. I'm just dumb and needed it explaining to me! :blink:

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Good discussion, some very good points. :yes: I like the force as you describe it Sluggo, it makes it easier for me to accept the reasons for Anakin becoming a force ghost. Also, as TFE said, that was more how it was described in the OT, it almost seemed 'simpler' when we had less information about it. But then of course, we also had less information about Darth Vader's actions.

[Orandhite]

I know you put it in quotes so it was not literal, but I would not say that The Force as a non-sentient energy field that can guide you on a path is simpler than one that is sentient.

The reason I say this is that it is easier to understand how a sentient being would react to/deal with/manipulate events that occur, whereas trying to understand how a non-sentient energy field would do this without the ability to be aware of the results of those events is a little mind-boggling!

But saying that, I agree that it is a better way to describe The Force as it makes more sense. Which is quite contradictory considering my last statement! :scratchchin:

[Sluggo]

This is where I have the most fun with Star Wars. It is fun to toss everything we think we know out the window and deal with the details of the movie from a 'certain point of view' other than my own. Or 'unlearning' what I have learned. ;)

[Orandhite]

Dude, you are the KING of good answers today!

[RollaFett]

UGH! All this smart talk makes my head hurt.
Uhhh....Jar Jar sucks! Yeah! Ha Ha!

:wink:



PS- Just kidding, of course.

[Orandhite]

That he does. And not in a good way.

In fact, the gungans in general suck. Mainly because of the ridiculous accents. But that has nothing to do with the end of ROTJ, so apologies.

[Sluggo]

At least not the end of ROTJ pre-2004, but that is a different thread for a different time.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

UGH! All this smart talk makes my head hurt.
Uhhh....Jar Jar sucks! Yeah! Ha Ha!

:wink:

PS- Just kidding, of course.

You forgot that you are meant to type IMO in every post, just so everyone is clear that it is just your opinion! :nahnah: :rofl:

[Fish1941]

Reading all these comments about those who are not able to accept Vader's redemption has reminded me a few things about Western society:

1) No matter how much we talk about redemption and forgiveness, we are probably one of the most unforgiving societies on the face of this earth. Then again, all of humanity might have a strong unforgiving streak, even this world's religions preach about it.

2) Our society seems to judge redemption in the form of numbers. If XXX killed this number of people, he or she must face this number of years before receiving redemption or forgiveness. Everything is about number and neat labeling. It doesn't matter if the perputrator genuinely harbors remorse for his or her crimes, it all has to come down to numbers. It sounds rather petty to me.


Now, as I've said before I don't like this as much as I'd prefer a conscious forgiveness for Anakin's deeds (which is tricky because he would need either forgiveness from all he killed or hurt and this would require consent of who knows how many hundreds of beings OR this would require sentient knowledge by the force and I don't think that is the case) because my own personal beliefs would be more comfortable with the circumstances. But I'd rather be correct in my knowledge than believe something that feels good but is wrong. So to me, Anakin didn't recieve forgiveness because I don't think that is the system George set up. Balance can be achieved naturally but forgiveness is something that has to be consciously given.

Exactly what system did George set up to judge whether Anakin had received redemption or not? And why is it that words are more important to people than deeds? The fact that Anakin rejected evil to save his son led me to believe that he had redeemed. I don't require that Anakin express the words out loud. Nor do I believe that Anakin had to suffer "so-and-so" number of years to receive redemption. His last action satisfied me.

[Darill Cyllem]

2) Our society seems to judge redemption in the form of numbers. If XXX killed this number of people, he or she must face this number of years before receiving redemption or forgiveness. Everything is about number and neat labeling. It doesn't matter if the perputrator genuinely harbors remorse for his or her crimes, it all has to come down to numbers.

That's very true. And i think Sluggo's well expressed point is that this is not what the Force is about and most of us have a hard time understanding the Force for that very reason. Which is, of course, what makes it interesting.

[RollaFett]

2) Our society seems to judge redemption in the form of numbers. If XXX killed this number of people, he or she must face this number of years before receiving redemption or forgiveness. Everything is about number and neat labeling. It doesn't matter if the perputrator genuinely harbors remorse for his or her crimes, it all has to come down to numbers. It sounds rather petty to me.

I think that's oversimplifying things. It's also the nature of the crimes commited, as well the person's intent who commited said crimes.
Plus, who's defining this 'genuine remorseness' anyway? If someone was capable of commtting such atrocious acts, why should that person's remorseful words be believed?
In the end, it doesn't matter to me if someoe has murdered one, or one thousand. It's the nature of the crime, and the mindset of the person who commits it. Redemption, regardless of remorse, number of victims, or acts commttied later in life, should never be automatic.
Back to Vader, though. When did he show any genuine remorse? I don't recall a point where he asked for forgiveness and expressed regret for the terrible deeds he did over the years. Yes, at two points in ROTS, he shows some immediate regret. Right after Mace is killed ("What have I done?!), and after killing the Seperatists (when he cries), but he moves on and continues to do evil things.


The fact that Anakin rejected evil to save his son led me to believe that he had redeemed. I don't require that Anakin express the words out loud. Nor do I believe that Anakin had to suffer "so-and-so" number of years to receive redemption. His last action satisfied me.

Yes, after over 20 years, Anakin does reject evil in order to save his son. But does that negate his embrace of evil in order to save his wife?

[RollaFett]

You forgot that you are meant to type IMO in every post, just so everyone is clear that it is just your opinion! :nahnah: :rofl:

:rofl: Good one, IMO.

[Darth Massacrus]

about the end of ROTJ, wouldnt it have been neat if we got to see some Imperial shuttles or TIE fighters escaping the Death Star? All I'm saying is that I feel sorry for all those poor, innocent, millions of civilian contractors that were killed by those Rebel terrorists.....

[Raganork8]

about the end of ROTJ, wouldnt it have been neat if we got to see some Imperial shuttles or TIE fighters escaping the Death Star? All I'm saying is that I feel sorry for all those poor, innocent, millions of civilian contractors that were killed by those Rebel terrorists.....


I wonder if you're serious because I always felt that the movies painted the rebels in an unfair way.

They are the good guys, but thier methods did probably mean the deaths of a lot of people who were just working for credits. Not every imperial Officer wants to sith to take over, they're probably just making money...

Anyway that's a different subject.

[JediDad]

I haven't read all three pages on the end of ROTJ yet, so it's possible someone else already brought this up. I agree that I would prefer to see Shaw as Anakin at the end, instead of Hayden. Obi-Wan gets to spend enternity as a Force ghost who looks like Alec Guinness instead of Ewan MacGregor, so it's hardly fair to him to have Anakin all young and buff...

But here's the change that bothers me about the end of ROTJ:

Luke's nod This is where you'll think I'm crazy. I can take or leave most of the other changes to Jedi. People talk about the Jabba's palace number, but Lapti Nek was no great shakes either. The extra Sarlac stuff was unnecessary but benign. And the final sequence showing celebrations on the different worlds was a welcome improvement over the "nyub-nyub" Ewok extravaganza. However, at the end, when Luke is looking fondly at the blue ghosts of Ben, Yoda, and his Father, in the original version, he nods at them, smiles, and then turns back to his circle of friends. In the special edition, the nod is removed. When this fifteen year old kid was watching that movie in 1983, he took that nod, not only as Luke's fond farewell to those who have joined with the Force, but also as an acknowledgement to him, and the rest of the fans of the trilogy, a kind of "Thanks for coming with me on the journey." That moment is lost now.

[thepepgal]

I haven't read all three pages on the end of ROTJ yet, so it's possible someone else already brought this up. I agree that I would prefer to see Shaw as Anakin at the end, instead of Hayden. Obi-Wan gets to spend enternity as a Force ghost who looks like Alec Guinness instead of Ewan MacGregor, so it's hardly fair to him to have Anakin all young and buff...

But here's the change that bothers me about the end of ROTJ:

Luke's nod This is where you'll think I'm crazy. I can take or leave most of the other changes to Jedi. People talk about the Jabba's palace number, but Lapti Nek was no great shakes either. The extra Sarlac stuff was unnecessary but benign. And the final sequence showing celebrations on the different worlds was a welcome improvement over the "nyub-nyub" Ewok extravaganza. However, at the end, when Luke is looking fondly at the blue ghosts of Ben, Yoda, and his Father, in the original version, he nods at them, smiles, and then turns back to his circle of friends. In the special edition, the nod is removed. When this fifteen year old kid was watching that movie in 1983, he took that nod, not only as Luke's fond farewell to those who have joined with the Force, but also as an acknowledgement to him, and the rest of the fans of the trilogy, a kind of "Thanks for coming with me on the journey." That moment is lost now.



:welcome:

I hadn't noticed that Luke's nod is missing but I was did enjoy seeing it too. Nice to know he was thanking them for their efforts as well.

[Mothman]

I haven't read all three pages on the end of ROTJ yet, so it's possible someone else already brought this up. I agree that I would prefer to see Shaw as Anakin at the end, instead of Hayden. Obi-Wan gets to spend enternity as a Force ghost who looks like Alec Guinness instead of Ewan MacGregor, so it's hardly fair to him to have Anakin all young and buff...

But here's the change that bothers me about the end of ROTJ:

Luke's nod This is where you'll think I'm crazy. I can take or leave most of the other changes to Jedi. People talk about the Jabba's palace number, but Lapti Nek was no great shakes either. The extra Sarlac stuff was unnecessary but benign. And the final sequence showing celebrations on the different worlds was a welcome improvement over the "nyub-nyub" Ewok extravaganza. However, at the end, when Luke is looking fondly at the blue ghosts of Ben, Yoda, and his Father, in the original version, he nods at them, smiles, and then turns back to his circle of friends. In the special edition, the nod is removed. When this fifteen year old kid was watching that movie in 1983, he took that nod, not only as Luke's fond farewell to those who have joined with the Force, but also as an acknowledgement to him, and the rest of the fans of the trilogy, a kind of "Thanks for coming with me on the journey." That moment is lost now.




You made this same comment on another thread, and I responded there. I am repeating my response below:

To me, it wasn't the "nod" that was the problem, but Luke's "wink" that was a part of it. Mark Hamill doesn't (or didn't) know how to wink properly. :wink: It bothered me back in 1983, so even though I don't like them messing with the original, that change was actually a good decision, IMO.




:bye:

[Fish1941]

However, at the end, when Luke is looking fondly at the blue ghosts of Ben, Yoda, and his Father, in the original version, he nods at them, smiles, and then turns back to his circle of friends. In the special edition, the nod is removed. When this fifteen year old kid was watching that movie in 1983, he took that nod, not only as Luke's fond farewell to those who have joined with the Force, but also as an acknowledgement to him, and the rest of the fans of the trilogy, a kind of "Thanks for coming with me on the journey." That moment is lost now.



I didn't notice a damn thing about Luke's nod. And quite frankly, I don't think I really care whether it was there or not.

[lovelucas]

When this fifteen year old kid was watching that movie in 1983, he took that nod, not only as Luke's fond farewell to those who have joined with the Force, but also as an acknowledgement to him, and the rest of the fans of the trilogy, a kind of "Thanks for coming with me on the journey." That moment is lost now.


actually - if that interpretation is there for people, it is sad that it's missing. A great way to sign off on a high note and the acknowledgment that we've been there.

[Mothman]

When this fifteen year old kid was watching that movie in 1983, he took that nod, not only as Luke's fond farewell to those who have joined with the Force, but also as an acknowledgement to him, and the rest of the fans of the trilogy, a kind of "Thanks for coming with me on the journey." That moment is lost now.


actually - if that interpretation is there for people, it is sad that it's missing. A great way to sign off on a high note and the acknowledgment that we've been there.


But Mr. Hamill still doesn't wink very well. :wink:





:bye:

[Orandhite]

Agreed, he does not.

However...the nod at the end should not be missing, it was just as Jedi Dad said, it was an acknowledgement for the journey we had shared.

As for the replacement of Shaw with Hayden - I think I preferred Shaw as it showed continuity but I would have thought that if they had managed to become Force Ghosts, then surely they would have been able to choose their appearance somewhat, so maybe that is what Anakin chose - to become what he should have been, rather than what he was.