Dooku and Masks

[surtrsfire]

It's been a while since Ive been to this forum, way back before episode I came out. But I decided to come back because an idea just wont leave my head. In short it involves Dooku becoming a threat to Sidious, his current master.

Star Wars, as everyone will agree, is infused with mythology and one of its greatest symbolisms is the idea of the mask covering an identity and taking away that person's individuality. Let me explain with some of the many examples.

Queen Amidala: Hides behind makeup and brilliant costumes. She's pretty weak and inexperienced. But only when she takes off her "mask" does she become a great leader, unites the Gungans and the Naboo and defeats the Federation.

Stormtroopers/Clonetroopers/Imp Pilots: These are simply clones with no individuality. To make them more like biotic robots they all wear the same costume and become a homogenous force with no willpower of their own.

Darth Maul: Covers his true self with scary tattoos showing that he has no individuality. He is merely a loyal tool for Sidious to utilize.

Darth Vader: Loses his identity when he first dones his mask, ceasing to be Anakin Skywalker and becoming Palpatine's loyal servant. Only when he redeems himself in ROTJ does he take off his mask, becoming an individual yet again, resurrecting the old Anakin that was buried deep.

Now let's get to Dooku. Dooku is a pretty old guy, starting out in the Jedi Order and finally allying himself with the Sith, effectively becoming Sidious' apprentice. He doesn't wear any horrifying masks or scars or tattoos. He's effectively his own individual. He's able to manipulate the Confederacy of Independent Systems by appealing to them in a grandfatherly voice which everyone implicitly trusts. Not only that, he has a huge army of droids at his back.

Now, Dooku is pretty old and like all Sith, he seeks to become the master. Vader asked Luke to join him, and Dooku asks Obi-Wan. If given the chance, Dooku will no doubt attempt to take Sidious' place. Why should he allow Sidious to become Emperor when that role can easily be taken by himself? Remember, he was instructed by the Jedi Order and only recently (10 yrs before AOTC) did he disappear, and ally with Sidious. He's not much an apprentice really, more like a tool that Sidious thinks he can use to gather an army and set himself up as Emperor.

I have a gut feeling that the Clone Wars are going to go beyond what Palpatine had planned. Dooku, every much an individual, deigning not to wear a mask that will leave him only a servant, will take his droid army and try to end the Republic and set himself up as Emperor. Palpatine/Sidious, an excellent and manipulative stragetist might actually have a real war on his hands.

Despite the real threat that Dooku might pose, we all know who will come on top in the end.

Ideas? Comments? Anyone? Anyone?

[LordTyranus]

I've thought of this too, I think in the next movie Dooku and Palpy won't be so buddy buddy, but will actually be fighting, I also think Dooku might get an apprentice of his own in an atempt to tip the scales.

[surtrsfire]

Yeah, I can definitely see Dooku gaining an apprentice. Who knows if it was a trick or not, but I really think Dooku was heartfelt when he asked Obi-Wan to join him. If Obi-Wan had said yes, Dooku would have definitely taken him as an apprentice to wage war against the Sith. Just because Obi-Wan said no, it doesnt mean Dooku will not find another Jedi to join him.

[Polunis]

I agree with the apprentice theory, but we will have to wait and see on that end. Who would become his apprentice? Perhaps it will be the new villain rumored to appear. Quite frankly, I would love to see a big battle between Tyranus and his apprentice vs. Sidious and Vader.

I have not noticed the significance of the mask before, but it does seem to make a great deal of sense. Anakin did wear that mask out of necessity, however.

[Rogue_0009]

That in my opinion was always sidious' greatest failing he got tired of having to raise an appretice from a young child, instead manipulating fully trained jedi to the dark side and not suspecting that they would turn on him he became too over-confident, and that will get you killed.

[Rogue_0009]

I've been thinking about the masks symbolisism thing and realized that Boba wears a mask to hide from a society that doesn't accept him and that he rejects becoming a part of.

[surtrsfire]

Good point on the Boba mask. Jango seems to be more individualistic even trading some quips with Obi-Wan on Kamino. Once he puts the mask on, he's back in the coldblooded bounty hunter role. Boba, as a clone and not a true individual, begins to wear his helmet too frequently, hiding his true self and origins from the rest of the galaxy.

[haYDen CHriSteNSEn LoVEr]

ok, i think dooku is such a big threat, because unlike sidious and palpy he used to be a jedi.
and also, i might get told off for saying this so i will warn you
slight slight slight spoiler warning

i think dooku will want anakin as his apprentis to make him more powerfull, palpy the same. they fight, use what ever they can, but somehow, (far beyond me) palpy wins and uses a lot of lies to convert anakin ( to see more on this subject, see my topic on the prequels, spoilers page, ANAKIN-2-VADER)
that is all i am saying!

[bodhisattva yoda]

i'm thinking, if dooku takes a new apprentice, it will be anakin. if episode three mirrors return of the jedi, dooku and sidious will both attempt to gain anakin's trust with the inevitable betrayal at the end. anakin will probably reject dooku's offer to join him, kill him by giving in to his anger and hatred and whatnot, and succumb to the darkside thereby joining sidious. but perhaps not.

i didn't actually drawn the same conclusions about the mask/identity theme, but i did find it striking that the new sith was just another old man like sidious. very interesting..

[SonGokou]

Personally, I'd say Palpy is aware of Dookus induviduality but is equally aware that Anakin will one day be his apprentice (they're pretty chummy in AOTC) and will use Dooku as one of Anakins final "trials" to the darkside, Obi being the other "trial". Of which he failed...

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by surtrsfire@July 09 2002 - 23:55
He doesn't wear any horrifying masks or scars or tattoos. He's effectively his own individual. He's able to manipulate the Confederacy of Independent Systems by appealing to them in a grandfatherly voice which everyone implicitly trusts. Not only that, he has a huge army of droids at his back.
That IS his mask.

[Tovor]

Here be an old and forgotten topic, worthy of a grand return. Enjoy.

[Rogue_0009]

Originally posted by Rogue_0009@Jul 11 2002, 09:05 AM
I've been thinking about the masks symbolisism thing and realized that Boba wears a mask to hide from a society that doesn't accept him and that he rejects becoming a part of.
Whoa, when the hells was I ever that insigtful??

[Trilogist]

While I agree Dooku is secretly plotting against Sidious, I also believe Sidious has already foreseen it, much like he foresaw Vader plotting against him and taking Luke on as an apprentice (rule the galaxy as father and son). He's just playing dumb, meanwhile preparing his next student, Anakin, to take Dooku's place when the time comes.

[JKRich]

I too think Dooku is plotting against Palpatine.I do believe however that he has may have his own agenda.Maybe he doesnt like how Palpy is going to run things.

[darth bangkok]

if that was true, and dooku was doing all this plotting, wouldn't you know it by watching the clone wars cartoon? I don't know, i can't see them here.

[stormtrooper9]

No the Cartoons were just about Anikan and did not realy have the CIS leaders in the cartoons.

[Revan]

I agree with SonGokou;Dooku will be the final trial of Anakin's training.As for Vader's mask,I don't agree with you.He has a powerfull personality;he wants to take the eEmperor's place with Luke at his side.

[Sargoth]

Originally posted by surtrsfire@Jul 9 2002, 08:55 PM
It's been a while since Ive been to this forum, way back before episode I came out. But I decided to come back because an idea just wont leave my head. In short it involves Dooku becoming a threat to Sidious, his current master.

Star Wars, as everyone will agree, is infused with mythology and one of its greatest symbolisms is the idea of the mask covering an identity and taking away that person's individuality. Let me explain with some of the many examples.

Ideas? Comments? Anyone? Anyone?
Quoted post


Very interesting subject! Let's add this to the mix:

You are correct, Dooku does not "wear" any mask. But then again, neither does Palpatine (yes, he keeps his hood down as Darth Sid, but come on, who's he fooling?) The masks of the Stormtroopers are the destruction of individuality, the mask of Padme is duality, the masks of Vader and Maul represent "immutable" change (once you start down the dark path , forever will it dominate your destiny).

However I disagree with the symbolism that Dooku's lack of a mask symbolizes his individuality or his rebelliousness. If anything Dooku's (and Palpatine's) masks are the most dangerous of all - they are the masks you can't see. Both are "hiding in plain sight". Other sith apprencices hide their faces, letting us know, without question, of their allegiance. After a 20 second fight with Maul, Qui-gon had him pegged as a Sithlord. However, Dooku's sith allegiance is a total mystery - even after his obvious display of dark-side power. Not even Yoda could make the critical connection between Dooku and the Sith. Even when told of the Sith working in their midst, the Jedi didn't believe it!!! "The senate isn't ruled by a Sith, It's ruled by SC Palpatine, you silly goose!!!" The most convincing mask is the one you wear every day!

Now, concerning Dooku making his "power play" for overthrowing Palpatine. I do think we'll see that on screen. I believe that will play out at the beginning Ep3 when Anakin & Obi-wan go to style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif
(ping me in the spoiler forums if you want to discuss this).

[Kapit]

dooku's not working in their midst, palpatine is

the only reason the jedi don't know this is because the dark side is clouding their vision and judgement

the jedi do know that dooku is a sith, they just don't like to accept it because he was once their own

they know he is, but he's not the one working in their midst, it's palpatine

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by JediKaputski@Oct 5 2004, 10:09 PM
the jedi do know that dooku is a sith, they just don't like to accept it because he was once their own
Quoted post

I would have to say that Yoda probably does suspect Dooku's Sith. The only reason there'd be any question is that falling to the Dark Side doesn't automatically equate one with the Sith. But given the re-emergence of the Sith and the marked increase in the strength of the Dark Side, it would be a little too coincidental that Dooku would be involved in something of this magnitude, as a Dark Sider, and not be connected with the Sith.

[Sargoth]

Originally posted by JediKaputski@Oct 5 2004, 03:09 PM
dooku's not working in their midst, palpatine is


Ehh?? Dooku *is* working in their midst. He is the face of the Confederacy. When he confronts Obi-wan, he isn't acting as a Sith lord, he's acting like the disenfranchised idealist who's struggling to make things "better". To the Systems that join his cause (minus the commerce guilds and power brokers) he is a revolutionary who is trying to remove the influence of the corrupted Senate.

the jedi do know that dooku is a sith, they just don't like to accept it because he was once their own


Where is this stated??? They initially can't accept that he's behind the assasination attempts because of his Jedi history. But they never claim or imply that Dooku is a Sith lord. Yoda only goes so far as to say that "joined the dark side, Dooku has". If anything, Dooku is telling the Jedi, "you want to find the Sith? Look in your own Senate". The poor Jedi have all the pieces of the puzzle, they just can't put them together: *Both* sides of the conflict are being gamed by the Sith.

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Sargoth@Oct 6 2004, 03:04 AM
Where is this stated??? They initially can't accept that he's behind the assasination attempts because of his Jedi history. But they never claim or imply that Dooku is a Sith lord. Yoda only goes so far as to say that "joined the dark side, Dooku has". If anything, Dooku is telling the Jedi, "you want to find the Sith? Look in your own Senate". The poor Jedi have all the pieces of the puzzle, they just can't put them together: *Both* sides of the conflict are being gamed by the Sith.
Quoted post

It wasn't explicitly stated, but like I said above, I think Yoda was probably able to put two and two together and realize that Dooku was Sith. That's not a difficult leap to make given that he's joined the Dark Side and is involved in this major conflict at a point in time when the Dark Side has grown considerably and clouds everything.

And to say the "poor" Jedi can't put all the pieces together is a little harsh. There's no reason for them to be able to see what's going on. There are usually going to be two sides to a conflict. In this case, we have the Republic and the CIS. If the Sith are going to be involved with any side, common sense would say its the CIS. They obviously haven't sensed a Sith among them, so they have no reason to believe the Republic/Senate is under Sith control. That would seem to be misdirection on Dooku's part (like you mentioned before) in order to cast blame away from him and the fact that he's Sith.

And there's still the question of the army. Even if they can trace it to the Sith, the big question would be why? Why would the Sith give an army to the Republic? That would only strengthen them against any opposition. That's not intuitive.

The Jedi don't have all the pieces. At best, they have strong reason to suspect the Sith are behind the CIS (because of Dooku). And if they would choose to believe his word about the Senate being controlled by Sidious, they still wouldn't know how or what that would mean.

[Leto Aldriss]

For what it's worth.

Dooku is the red herring. Sidious has made him the obvious target for the Jedi. An angry ex-jedi turned Sith Lord, with an entire army of droids and financial backers (TF, Techno union, Commerce Guild, etc...).

By gradually allowing Dooku's betrayal of the Jedi order, that he was once a part of, to become obvious it destroys his creditability when he tries to direct the Obi-Wan to Palpatine.

Personally, I don't think that Sidious can truely trust Dooku simply because Dooku is already too well trained. His skills rival those of the Jedi Masters, and his cruelty and self serving attitude make him a conciderably dangerous foe.

Sidious is keeping his friends close (Anakikn; because he can manipulate him) and hhis Enemies closer(Dooku; because he has political power to assist in Palpatine's own goals, but could still be a threat to his own rise to power.)

That's how I see it.

[JSunday]

The Sith trust no one. That's the beauty of them all....looking, at one point or another, to stab the other one in the back in order to secure a more dominant role...and take their own apprentice, who, one day will do the same to them.....

[LegendoftheJedi]

Originally posted by JSunday@Dec 10 2004, 12:57 PM
The Sith trust no one. That's the beauty of them all....looking, at one point or another, to stab the other one in the back in order to secure a more dominant role...and take their own apprentice, who, one day will do the same to them.....
Quoted post



So true. Remember that Vader tried to do the same thing with Luke towards the Emperor...

[Leto Aldriss]

Evil turns in upon itself. That is the way of things.

[JSunday]

...the way of the Force. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Yoda-in-meditation]

In agree,
dooku will get an apprentice or something and there will be a bit of a battle of wills between dooku and sidious in ep III

[Emperor Palpatine]

I assumed that Asajj Ventress was Dooku's apprentice, or was preparing to be such. She is trained in lightsaber combat, and has mastered various competencies in the Sith arts.

[Sargoth]

Originally posted by Chancellor Palpatine@Dec 22 2004, 02:49 PM
I assumed that Asajj Ventress was Dooku's apprentice, or was preparing to be such. She is trained in lightsaber combat, and has mastered various competencies in the Sith arts.
Quoted post


Although Asajj was being trained by Dooku, she was not a Sith Apprentice. She would only be able to "join the club" once Sidious was out of the picture. Although I do agree that Dooku was grooming her to eventually fill this role.

[Emperor Palpatine]

^^^This is evidenced best in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, where I drew my conclusions from.

[Emperor Palpatine]

In agree,
dooku will get an apprentice or something and there will be a bit of a battle of wills between dooku and sidious in ep III

It won't happen, unfortunately. There is so much information to be discussed regarding Anakin's downfall in Episode III that the presence of Dooku's apprentice would simply "clog" the movie. Besides, this would violate the Sith Rule of Two established by Darth Bane. He would, by tradition, have to kill Sidious prior to taking on a new apprentice. If Dooku did not die in Episode III, I would have assumed he would have attempted to kill Sidious and then take Asajj as his learner.