The Secret History of Star Wars - ebook

[RollaFett]

http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/

Ok, I'm sure some of you have seen me plugging this thing a few times here and there, but I'm telling you, it's a great read. I just finished it last night, and honestly, I was disappointed that it was over.
Now, it isn't for everybody. If you're a strong defender of all things George Lucas, you very well may not like this even a little bit.
However, if you're an active critic of all things George Lucas, well, you'll probably really dig this.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a bash session. The purpose of the book is to take a thorough look at how the overall story of Star Wars has changed over the years. Specifically, how it transformed from the 'Adventures of Luke Skywalker' to the 'Tragedy of Darth Vader'.
It' written by a man named Michael Kaminski, and is painfully researched and thorough.
At times, it almost seems as though Kaminski has an ax to grind with how easily he calls Lucas a lier. But just as easily, he praises his brilliance and artistic/storytelling talents.
In any case, I highly recommend it. And, if you have already read it, please discuss here!

[Kapit]

I hate reading books on my comp, but since you've been plugging it so much, I'll try and give it a read

[T-bone]

I hate reading books on my comp, but since you've been plugging it so much, I'll try and give it a read


Yea I have stuff on it at my site too - have a read.

[RollaFett]

Yeah, I also saw the thread in the SW News Feeds section, but figured it might get more attention here. So we can keep this thread, right T?

[JSunday]

This poor loser is actually printing it right now.

[Master Magnus]

This poor loser is actually printing it right now.
Good luck with that... Several of his claims are flawed (including the Son of the Suns claim which was debunked on Hyperspace a couple of months ago), he does not have access to Lucasfilm or George Lucas and I don't like the constant "George Lucas lies" over and over again. Wishful thinking perhaps, but outright lies? That's rather offensive.

[RollaFett]

Wait, which "son of the suns" claim are you referring to?

As to his "George Lucas lies" comments, I too think that the guy went a little too far at times with his accusations, but I don't disagree with his larger point, which is that Lucas simply didn't have this whole saga planned out decades ago as well as it being Vader's story the whole time.

[JSunday]

I'm interested in reading it just the same. I've read plenty of biographies that weren't authorized either. I'm a KISS fan ta boot and if I depended on Simmons/Stanley's versions of all things, I'd still believe half the myths I believed while growing up.

That's not to say I'm defending Kaminski...or supporting Lucas being pegged a liar by way of showing interest in it. In fact I've yet to read a single word. But his lack of authorization on specific insider access doesn't necessarily make his work invalid either. Some of the most insightful, truthful pieces I've read weren't the most flattering things.

Like most things, read and judge for yourself. :victory:

By the way...this is officially dubbed THE KAMINSKI REPORT. I've seen Congressional documents with more brevity. ;)

[JSunday]

Regardless, I'm not taking it personally either way. IF Lucas just made stuff up as he went along, that's cool with me. I don't care how contrived or convoluted the whole this was or wasn't. None of that changes our views of the films. It might make him look foolish if it is true, but that's his burden to bear....or myth to carry on. Either way. It's all good.

[RollaFett]

Several of his claims are flawed (including the Son of the Suns claim which was debunked on Hyperspace a couple of months ago)

Okay, on another board, I found what you're referring to and Kaminski himself admits that he was wrong about that. However, that point is hardly a big deal, and not particularly critical anyway. It would've been pretty cool if the Son of Suns line actually was in that scene, don't you think?

[Master Magnus]

Wait, which "son of the suns" claim are you referring to?
It's not possible to quote from the material (due to the document properties), but on page 366 the guy claims that "The Son of the Suns... has indeed found it's way into the films." and he then refers to the Coruscant scene in the ROTJ SE and TPM (he has even embellished the quote and claims that it's "The sign has come - The Son of the Suns, The Son of the Suns"). The raw recording, and the details of the shout (it was editors at Skywalker Sound shouting various things) and Ben Burtt created a sentence in Huttese (which some, I've certainly never heard it, claims is "The Son of the Suns"). If you're a Hyperspace member, the raw recording is available in the February 2007 Insider online supplement. There were quite a few other things as well which I noticed when I read the book, but that was what first sprung to mind at the moment I made my post.

As to his "George Lucas lies" comments, I too think that the guy went a little too far at times with his accusations, but I don't disagree with his larger point, which is that Lucas simply didn't have this whole saga planned out decades ago as well as it being Vader's story the whole time.
Perhaps, but George Lucas, as the creator of the franchise, knows more about about the characters and plot than anyone else and there are seeds to what would become the overall stories in George Lucas's notes and early drafts to Star Wars. There is the idea of a father (Kane Starkiller) to the protagonist (Annakin Starkiller) and a sibling (Deak Starkiller, even if early concept art depicted a sister) in early drafts. I don't see it as something strange that the evolution of Star Wars as it became successful picked up on those early ideas.

[T-bone]

It's not so much all that that bothers me - it's all that talk about how it was "always" the saga of Darth Vader that kills me.

[Master Magnus]

It's not so much all that that bothers me - it's all that talk about how it was "always" the saga of Darth Vader that kills me.
Yes, I see your point T, but I think that's a result of wishful thinking (although I can't know for sure of course).

[T-bone]

Yes, I see your point T, but I think that's a result of wishful thinking (although I can't know for sure of course).

or rewriting history.

[Master Magnus]

or rewriting history.
Could be, but we can't know for sure if it's intentional and I don't think it excuses saying "George Lucas lies" over and over and the question how important (or interesting) that really is.

There are also a few things the author must revise, must notably the appendix about "The Journal of the Whills" whose history was revealed in the Making of Star Wars (that was a section in which I thought the author was perhaps the most presumptuous, by calling it a 'fabrication' in addition to pushing his own subjective opinions about ROTJ and the prequels as facts).

[T-bone]

Like i said in my review - the answer usually lies somewhere in the middle. I like old GL, I just don't like how he flips flops like John Kerry. :)

[Master Magnus]

There are also a few things the author must revise, must notably the appendix about "The Journal of the Whills" whose history was revealed in the Making of Star Wars (that was a section in which I thought the author was perhaps the most presumptuous, by calling it a 'fabrication' in addition to pushing his own subjective opinions about ROTJ and the prequels as facts).
I visited the site and it turned out that the author since the publication of Rinzler's book has addressed the Journal of the Whills issue.

[T-bone]

yea i told him about it back when someone sent me that passage from the book... he probably will make a few more adjustments but on the whole, i think he did a good job proving some points.

i'm not sure why lucas keeps pushing this saga of darth vader thing as if it was the intention from the beginning but hey, he's old now. :)

[Justin]

Good luck with that... Several of his claims are flawed (including the Son of the Suns claim which was debunked on Hyperspace a couple of months ago), he does not have access to Lucasfilm or George Lucas and I don't like the constant "George Lucas lies" over and over again. Wishful thinking perhaps, but outright lies? That's rather offensive.
Well you may believe that but if you look that stuff up you will see that it is undeniable that things have been greatly exaggerated.

Lucas continues to contradict himself, especially concerning the significance of Star Wars, on one hand claiming that he did all this research into mythology and created Star Wars for a "generation without fairy tales," while on the other hand says he just wanted to make a fun adventure movie, and that it's "just a movie."

I even heard him in person at Celebration III admit that he hadn't planned everything out, that he never intended to make any sequels.

I heard him say, with my own ears, that he just intended it to be one film but with the idea that there could be other adventures possibly going up to twelve episodes (like the old serials) but that he never intended to actually make any more.

This is in direct contradiction to his "everything was planned out" comments, which I have seen him say on TV.

This guy says some very nice things about George Lucas in his book, but he lays out all the inconsistencies and backs them up with citations.

If anything is offensive, it's the fact that GL and his company have lied about all this stuff for decades (although I don't find it offensive, just fascinating and unfortunate).

EDIT: I'm sorry if I sound angry about it, I'm really not. Just kind of frustrated in the whole thing because I've seen a lot of literature proving the doublespeak, even in official Lucasfilm books. It's a little dismaying but it's not the end of the world. It's just a movie.

[Master Magnus]

I even heard him in person at Celebration III admit that he hadn't planned everything out, that he never intended to make any sequels.
Yet he specifically negotiated the right to make sequels and planned to do a sequel even before the movie was a hit (what became Splinter of the Mind's Eye). However, I don't think that shows that 'George Lucas lies' as the author spouts over and over again. And as I said, it's impossible for anyone without access to George Lucas or his notes (and what says that he had to write everything down?) to really get the full picture of his intentions. That's why I think this project is pretty much meaningless. Some things are interesting, but as a whole, the author doesn't (or can't) present anything which wasn't already known.
My main beef with the e-book though is that the author pushes his own subjective opinion as facts (especially in regards to ROTJ, the Special Editions and the prequels).

[lovelucas]

Amen.

[Justin]

Maybe he does out some of his own subjective opinion regarding the quality of the films, etc. but the stuff about George Lucas revising history over the years is nothing new, I was well aware of his conflicting statements before I read this ebook (and I haven't read all of it, just the parts that I was interested in).

In fact, I just watched the ROTS DVD commentary about a week ago, and was shocked that he says in the end that when he originally wrote the script he called it The Tragedy of Darth Vader, which is blatantly untrue.

If you read J.W. Rinzler's new Making of Star Wars book, where he had access to all the Lucasfilm archives, all of Charles Lippincott's interviews and the original drafts of the films themselves, it is clear that Darth Vader was not meant to be Luke's father and Leia was not meant to be Luke's sister, and that Star Wars was not "Episode IV."

The book never explicitly states that there is a conflict between what has been said and what was actually the case, but all the information is there indicating that there was no master plan, particularly regarding Vader, etc.

I was surprised when I read it that it wasn't manipulated to fit with the "master plan" legend.

Regarding the idea of sequels, I didn't mean he never EVER at any time considered making sequels (we know that is not the case) but when he was first working on it he only intended to make one, according to what he said at C3. Clearly at some point he said "hey this is cool, why don't I make more?" But he didn't have a whole outline for everything before he began.

Plus, look at what happens in Splinter of the Mind's Eye which would have been the sequel if Lucas didn't have as much money for ESB: Luke and Leia are all into each other! There is NO WAY that Lucas would have put that stuff in there (or allowed it to be put in by Foster) with the intent that they would be siblings.

[RollaFett]

^^ Oh yeah, big surprise that you wouldn't be into it. :wink:

As far as the accusations that Kaminski makes throughout, I'll even admit that it seemed like he had an ax to grind at times. That said, he does his fair share of praising the creativity and storytelling talents that Lucas clearly has. It's not simply a bashfest.

[T-bone]

I wasn't surprised Justin. I just don't think this "conspiracy" is anything serious that Lucas obsesses over. I'm not even sure he knows he's doing it anymore and I'm sure sometimes the press gets it wrong. Like I said, the truth is always sort of in the middle. Maybe he can't remember stuff either. I know when I'm trying to remember things from a few years (even days) ago I get the times and dates all messed up...

I don't think it's some kind of evil edict from above, just things getting mixed all up. I'm sure if Lucas ever granted an all out, all access interview and someone had the balls to bring all this up, I could picture Lucas looking over the info and going, "Hmmm, yea that's probably right. Ah well..."

Lucas is a GOOD GUY. Remember that kids.

[RollaFett]

Yeah, I tend to side with that overall assessment T. However, there are some things that are impossible to gloss over and agree with, such as "The Tragedy of Darth Vader". But, in the end, I really like what you had to say about Lucas after finishing that book, in that you actually may admire him a little more upon learning how he developed the SW saga.

[Justin]

No I agree, I don't think Lucas is a bad guy for saying this stuff, and I think it has snowballed over the years and he can't really go back and say "oh yeah, I guess that's really how it went."

I also think that the media and fans have been complicit in it as well, because GL will say something and then it will become analyzed to death, and he will agree with what has been said of him and say that that is how it was all supposed to go down, because that's what is expected of him.

He's been built up as this incredible god-like genius over the years that he probably feels pressure to live up to the hype.

But like I was saying, it's really not that big of a deal. It's unfortunate, because now when GL says something about the OT it's hard to know if it was really how it was, but it's not the end of the world.

[Master Magnus]

Maybe he does out some of his own subjective opinion regarding the quality of the films, etc. but the stuff about George Lucas revising history over the years is nothing new, I was well aware of his conflicting statements before I read this ebook (and I haven't read all of it, just the parts that I was interested in).
Yes, that has been rather well-known and a point of contention in the online community for quite some time now. You should read the entire book, the author does present some very interesting things (I especially found the chapter about the making of TESB quite intriguing). I'm miffed about a few things, but that doesn't mean that I thought the entire book was a wash out of course.

In fact, I just watched the ROTS DVD commentary about a week ago, and was shocked that he says in the end that when he originally wrote the script he called it The Tragedy of Darth Vader, which is blatantly untrue.
I don't remember what he said verbatim, but yes, that claim is very exaggerated.

If you read J.W. Rinzler's new Making of Star Wars book, where he had access to all the Lucasfilm archives, all of Charles Lippincott's interviews and the original drafts of the films themselves, it is clear that Darth Vader was not meant to be Luke's father and Leia was not meant to be Luke's sister, and that Star Wars was not "Episode IV."
That doesn't rule out toying with ideas and concepts.

Regarding the idea of sequels, I didn't mean he never EVER at any time considered making sequels (we know that is not the case) but when he was first working on it he only intended to make one, according to what he said at C3. Clearly at some point he said "hey this is cool, why don't I make more?" But he didn't have a whole outline for everything before he began.
I agree to a point (that GL planned some sort of sequels before SW was even in full production seems to rather well established and both Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were signed on from the beginning to three movies), but it's a process. Some themes in the early drafts was carried over to what is now the SW saga. Did GL have it all planned out? No, I think it's likely that he toyed with a few ideas which together with new creative decisions and ideas from earlier drafts formed TESB, ROTJ and the backstory to the prequels. Does that make George Lucas an outright liar? No, I'm not of that opinion. I completely agree with T, the truth is there in the middle. I'll leave it at that.

Plus, look at what happens in Splinter of the Mind's Eye which would have been the sequel if Lucas didn't have as much money for ESB: Luke and Leia are all into each other! There is NO WAY that Lucas would have put that stuff in there (or allowed it to be put in by Foster) with the intent that they would be siblings.
If there hadn't been so much money then it would've been a moot point anyway. George Lucas would perhaps never been able to tell the story (Han Solo didn't appear in the novel as only Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher had signed on to three movies as I mentioned above) And quite frankly, nothing really 'sick' happens in SOTME. Luke wants to kiss Leia, but that's all there's to it. However, I personally don't think that George Lucas revisited the notion that the main character would have a sibling before he started work on ROTJ. Unfortunately, the entire saga lacks from inconsistencies on this point and it would've better if this concept had been scrapped.

[JSunday]

I'm with T here. I still very much admire Lucas, but this stuff is unnecessary. I'm a KISS fan and this very much smacks of a Gene Simmons mentality of massaging history to jive with your view of things. Again, nothing changes any of what we enjoy...but a little bit of humility and admiting, "Yeah, the history of the thing evolved as we did it".....what the hell's wrong with that?

Explain your original outlines and stick with the changes that you made. It's not like anyone's going to take a giant crap on him for having not envisioned the whole Vader chronicles in the early 70s. We DO tend to care when you lie about how it all came together....because we already love this stuff, so exaggerating is completely unnecessary.