Timeline Whiplash

[Chrono]

This is the official forum thread for Timeline Whiplash, as explained in the article at JediNet.com (http://www.JediNet.com/news/Story.asp?s=link&init=active&back=archive&fldr=Books%20and%20Comics&month=July&year=2002&id=31806,20020707,4345).

Post your feedback here, and let others know how YOU feel about this condition, and what we can do to alleviate it.

Also included in the Whiplash article is a Beginner's Guide to Star Wars Novels which explains which books JediNet Literature staff members recommend reading if you're new to the Expanded Universe, and why we feel you should read them.

[Kail Denear]

I agree with pretty much everything you say except for one thing. I know the Courtship of Princess Leia is not the best Star Wars novel, however, if you're suggesting people read the NJO without reading CoPL then I disagree. The Hapans have quite a large part in two of the NJO books and it might be best for people to see how they were introduced. CoPL gives a lot of background about Hapan society and will probably make some of the events in Dark Journey make more sense.

Just my two cents.

[Nathan Butler]

Okay, a concise breakdown of my thoughts:

1.) NJO:EL:RS does not take place 17 years after SoA. It takes place 15 years after it. Given that an even greater distance exists between Ep. 3 and ANH, even if we went with the original incorrect estimate, that doesn't seem to huge a gap. Kathy Tyers had 22 years between her previous SW hardback and NJO:BP.

2.) Of COURSE they're not doing tie-ins over and over between their prequel era books and NJO books. That's not conductive to new readers, and it would look like precisely what it would be: a gimmick. The NJO era books have entirely different logos, so it's very difficult to confuse regular prequel SW books with NJO. I think you're blowing that disparity WAY out of proportion. It was far more difficult to keep things straight with the Bantam release schedule, but even now, Del Rey provides a handy, if often fouled up, internal timeline inside each book. Where's the problem?

3.) We have NEVER jumped 30+ years after ANH, EVER, and until after the NJO ends, we still will have not. Do the math. If NJO:VP is 25 ASW4, and the new hardbacks come at the start of each year, BP is 26 ASW4, SBS is 27, DW is 28, and UF is 29. We don't even get halfway into UF unless that book covers many months. "30" years would be one thing. Maybe a slight overestimate, but "+30" (emphasis on the +) is just irresponsible, and further makes it seem like you're overblowing the situation for a better-reading article, rather than a true look at the situation.

4.) The OFP novel: Have you been keeping up with continuity much at all with regards to the OFP? The dating given for that event has, until now, always been either just before or just after TPM. The new date actually puts it LATER than before, making Thrawn able to be YOUNGER than ever expected in HttE - LC. The big question will be how this ties in with the earlier date of around 19 BSW4 given for "Mist Encounter," which deals with how he joins the Empire in the first place. That's VERY soon after the new novel.

5.) What's the problem with releasing the OFP novel after Ep. III? If it has the chance of spoiling parts of Ep. III, then they can't release it earlier, and their schedule is full. They only just recently signed Zahn for it, so they can't have scheduled it eariler. If it came down between "well, we sign him now and release later, or we don't sign him at all," then shouldn't we be HAPPY that they signed him for the new novel?

6.) Again, what's up with the dating problems? SBS isn't "at least two decades" after TG. It's 19. Again, it would've been okay if it hadn't been "at least," which again makes it sound worse than it is.

7.) So having authors write stories that are set decades apart from their earlier work is inexcusible? Someone better tell GL that he broke the rules when he wrote the screenplay for TPM then, which has a far bigger gap between its timeframe and ANH than any of your current gripes.

8.) How do they sort it out without symbols? Goodness gracious! I hope they don't have to, y'know, open to the first few pages of any of the newer books to see a detailed list of all of them. The horror!

Sorry, Chrono, but for the most part, I think you're out of your gourd on most of this. The ranting, though, isn't nearly as upsetting to me as the constant dating/continuity issues. You're running around using the name "Chrono." That implies more than just knowledge about different printings of books, release schedules, and so forth. It should at least suggest a firm grasp on relatve timeframes. Instead, after a few flubs, you're griping about how difficult it all is to follow.

Hopefully, there's an edit ability on that page, so you can fix some of those glaring errors.

[Chrono]

While I'm certainly not as versed in the Timeline as you are, Nathan, I based all of my dates on the OFFICIAL dates listed in the New Jedi Order novels, in their timeline.

I'm certainly not a math wizard, so some of my years might be wrong, but 19 years, is practically two decades. No insult intended here, but some people aren't as obsessed as you with dates.

The whole idea of the essay was to point out the fact that many people become confused and disoriented by the large gaps in time between novels. It was meant as a helpful reminder that there ARE large gaps in the continuity between publications, and to help bring attention to the fact that confused fans CAN find answers to their questions.

[James T. Skywalker]

And one last point Nathan wanted me to point out (which I picked up, actually):

9.) SoA was not a Wraith Squadron book. It was written by Allston, but didn't feature any of the characters from Wraith (other than Wedge and Janson, but they both left the Wraiths). It was technically a Red Flight novel, since the four pilots were detached from Rogue Squadron at that point.

Just needed to clarify.

~JTS

[Nathan Butler]

Chrono: Believe me, I really applaud the idea. In fact, Brien (JTS) and I were just talking earlier about how maybe it's an article that should be added to the recommended answers link on TOS's BAC message board FAQ. But there seems to be enough errors to warrant revision.

On the topic of revisions: What do you mean, you used the NJO dates? The only dating problems in the NJO things are the twins' ages being constantly fouled up, but I don't think they've ever strayed from the 1 hardback to start each year, of five years line.

[Chrono]

Originally posted by Chrono@July 07 2002 - 16<!--emo&:0
I based all of my dates on the OFFICIAL dates listed in the New Jedi Order novels

While I didn't intend for this thread to become an issue of having to defend my math skills, I will once again reiterate that the article was written for the casual/typical fan.

I used the dating system from the New Jedi Order novels, as stated in the Star Wars Novels Timeline. As far as any discrepancies, you can blame them on Del Rey.

The one thing that I didn't mention in the essay that I suppose I should have, is the fact that there is only one TRUE timeline, and that's what's published in the books. The fact that it's changed numerous times certainly doesn't help matters.

I'll go ahead and admit that Starfighters of Adumar had very little Wraith Squadron in it, but I still consider it a Wraith Squadron book, due to the fact that it was written by Aaron Allston, the creator of the Wraiths. Stackpole had his Rogues and Allston had his Wraiths. It's a matter of viewpoint.

Now, I don't mean to sound rude, or overly critical here, but I didn't intend for this forum thread to become an issue over semantics in an opinion essay. This was meant for people to express their opinion on whether they were having problems with Timeline Whiplash, or whether I was simply alone. Somehow I doubt I am.

So, if you're reading this, thanks for hanging in there. By all means, feel free to post your thoughts on the 'issue' of Timeline Whiplash, and not whether I researched my essay enough.

[Flight]

Star Wars books have not been released in chronological order. Even the movies themselves were not released chronologically. If people are confused by the fact that Official Continuity material is not released in numerical order, then they must have been confused for a very long time.

[Doctor Evil]

Well it's an interesting piece. I actually think that the casual/typical fan would not be as bothered as you think. Maybe I am wrong on that, but I have a few SW fan friends and no one has the problems you describe. Almost seems like maybe you are thinking too hard, but you may not be alone on that.

I know before I pick up a book, I have pretty well researched where it falls in the timeline. Right now I'm working my way through the NJO, and have dropped back and read other stuff inbetween. Lists of where the Books fall are easy to come by and the ones in the front of the books are good enough to figure out where something falls.

And of course those folks who have basically read most of the EU ought to really have no problem following the timeline.

Of course none of it is rocket science, as fanatcal as some of us might be. It is a nice look at something some of us may have never really considered. I do think that the suggested reading list at the end would be better served in an article of it's own. A newbie to the EU would probaby get lost and/or confused by alot of the article and never make it to the end, which would be the most useful part for them.

Still a nice article I think.

Doc *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

[Whuffa]

Why would someone get so confused about it? They have the timelines in the NJO novels and on-line at DELREY's site and many other fan sites. I just don't thing it's such a big problem.
I personally like reading about different eras, you get a perspective on how the GFFA has developed over its history.

[jade51999]

I can agree with some of what Chrono is saying..
I know a ton of people who have now seen AOTC who want to start reading the EU and don't know where to start..more often then naught they just pick up the first book they find at their local library and go from there..

lets see classic example..

my friend (lets call him pete)
went to his library and started out with the 2nd book of theBlack fleet crisis..(even though its clearly printed on the book that its book 2..) sometimes its hard to get books in order...

then the next time he went back..the book on the shelf was Heir to the empire..after that it was Vector Prime..

the last book he read before he gave up was the BActa war..and that point he realized he was soo lost that he had to go somewher else for information...

(me)...

honestly if someone isn't like us who visits boards, and websites (which a lot of people are not well obsessed style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif (i admit i am) and need to know every itsy bitsy bit ofinfo..

they can get confused...

now pete did realize he was reading stuff out of wac once he hit up the chronology inside VP ppb..but it was still really confusing..

so i do think it happens..and if you don't have access to an information source that can work everything out..yes you can have whiplash...

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
p

[jade51999]

ah whoops..i forgot to mention that
i also would sugest putting in COTL in there b/c the Hapans do play a large role....

(also mention that in the beginners guide..that the X-wing novels run parallel to theother major novels..) i.e that Starfighters is parallel to the 2nd Barbara Hambly book Planet of Twilight...

[Doctor Evil]

Hmmm, ole "Pete" might be the worst case scenario and it would seem to me that nothing would have stopped him from reading stuff out of order. I know of no library that has all the SW books or even puts in them on the shelf in any kind of order. Furthermore, if he KNOWS he is reading stuff out of order and continues to do so, what can anyone do? There are enough resources available, even if someone does not have internet access at home (Like use the net at the Library itself! ) *

People can't be handheld through everything. There could be a complete EU shelf in order at a library and some folks will pick the book with the prettiest cover, read it out of order and then complain. In the EU I think you have to be an ACTIVE reader and not just pick up every SW book you see. You may get interested by picking up an out of context book the first time, but if that only spurs you to get more out of context books rather than do a little research to find an appropriate starting point, then Danielle Steele or Star Trek may suit you better anyway.

Doc *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

[Rogue_0009]

I've never had pete's problem when I started out with EU a friend lent me SOTE wich is, in my opinion the best place to start, but any way I preffer to buy novels rather than go to my library cuz their collection is seriously incomplete (ie. X-wings #1,2,4,8,9, only books 1+3 of the crispin Han solo trilg ect.) so I went to the Sci-Fi section of the nearest book store, read the backs of a few novels checked provided chronos ect bought TaB and COPL the next time I went back and said heck with it and bought the ones I thought were better stories with the exeption of the 4th one I bought CotJ I enjoyed my system.

[James T. Skywalker]

Hmm, I guess I'll reply with my early EU problems.

Ok, here's how it went with me. I didn't even like Star Wars until seeing the Special Editions in '97, and after that, I was still a major Trek fan. I decided to work my way in gradually. A friend of my who lives in Santa Cruz let me borrow one of his Star Wars books, and it was the first I ended up reading (Queen of the Empire from the Trioculus Saga, already starting out in the EU out-of-order). After this, my parents and I were going on a trip, and in an airport bookstore, I picked up a copy of Dark Apprentice, the first EU book I actually bought on my own (I didn't get Jedi Search until about a year ago... like I said, I worked my way around).

Next, I bought Champions of the Force (since I needed to finish that trilogy off, even if I hadn't started it off in the right place). Next book I got was The New Rebellion. The skipping around doesn't stop for me. Next, I checked out copies of the entire Trioculus Saga from my school's library (I'm still surprised they even had them). After reading that entire series (I'm now sorry I did), I went and bought I, Jedi. This was where I started wondering "who's this Thrawn guy they keep talking about, and why the heck is he so special?" So, I actually read the little summaries for each novel in the back of the old Bantam novels, and went out and got The Thrawn Trilogy.

Finishing that, I needed more, but didn't know where to go after that. The whole "Luke turns to the Dark Side" thing still confused me, and I was having trouble understanding aspects of Han and Leia's marriage and how it fit with the events of TTT and *the JAT. So, I went online and found the Official Website. Then, after that, I found TheForce.net. It was there that I found TimeTales, and I began sorting my way through everything.

But, we're not done there. I saw in TimeTales the summary for the Trioculus Saga, and was happy (at the time) that it was mentioned. But then I saw the summary for Courtship of Princess Leia, and that this was the actual place where Han and Leia were married. I was very confused. So, I got CoPL, read it, and was much more satisfied by that chain of events than with the Trioculus Saga.

Soon, I started seeing little notes about summaries borrowed (with thanks) from Nathan Butler's timeline. For a long time, I wondered who this Nathan Butler guy was, and how he was getting credited in TimeTales (which, in my very juvenile mind, was the coolest resource I'd ever seen style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif). It wasn't until I actually met Nathan at starwars.com's Community Forums, and checked out his timeline, that I finally realized that all my answers could be found there, including final settlement to the lingering doubts I had regarding the Trioculus Saga events.

Now look at me! I'm the Research Assistant for Nathan's Timeline, I'm a moderator at the Official Site's forums, and I'm loving every minute of both jobs. And I get to post here every so often, as well. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

Life always works out for the better, even if you do get whipped around a bit in the process.

~James T. Skywalker, hero of two galaxies

[Flight]

Originally posted by JamesTSkywalker@July 09 2002 - 05:54
Now look at me! I'm the Research Assistant for Nathan's Timeline, I'm a moderator at the Official Site's forums, and I'm loving every minute of both jobs. And I get to post here every so often, as well. :-D
Rub it in our faces, why don't you? *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by Flight@July 08 2002 - 19:18
Rub it in our faces, why don't you? *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
Heh heh... only if Nathan's not around. ;)

~JTS

[Shoma Barad]

I never had an issue with the continuity.

I started reading SW novels back in '99, after I saw TPM and had Star Wars re-introduced into my psyche... lol

I'd heard about the novels, and decided to start reading them. I went to a book store and started flicking through some... There was the Black Fleet Crisis, the Corellian Trilogy, The HttE trilogy, Truce at Bakura and Shadows of the Empire.

In flicking through them all, i picked up that on the intro pages and the blurbs in the back, Bantam listed where in the timeline the books fall (eg "immediately after Star Wars: Return of the Jedi", "Five Years After Star Wars: Return of the Jedi" etc).

That was pretty straight forward for me... I went with Truce at Bakura, and worked my way through the list, buying one book at a time (I ended up reading all the Bantam novels within 8 months, with the exception of the Corellian Trilogy and The Crystal Star... i'd heard some very bad things about them... I still havent read those books, but I may pick up TCT soon).

The "Timeline Whiplash" that your article refers to made no sense to me... by picking up a book in the store, it is easy to find out where it happens... it also helps to look at the cover... if its Got Ewan, Hayden or Liam on it, its a pretty safe bet its from before ANH... lol...

I don't know. The books you listed as a starting point made sense to me... but i think everyone over-reacts a little to the timeline aspect of it... the books go in an order... follow the order, and you avoid all kinds of problems... once you're caught up, you can read anything from anywhere else in the timeline and it will make sense.

My advice? Do what I did- read everything, start to finish, inn order. Take your time, soak it all up, and enjoy... it may be frustrating to not buy a new book because you aren't up to it yet... but I think i get more out of the EU because I went that way.

~~Shoma

[jade51999]

I think i'm gonna reread everything once Traitor comes out style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

hmm..yea pete's case is sorta worse case senario..(but if it helps pete's kind of slow) style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif and i've seen him read a book, and most of the time if it has like excerpts to another book he won't read it..he also refuses to read past the last page of a book, and only reads from the first story page (no acknowledgements etc.) he's a strange one:) ah well style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif he he

but it happens....i swear!

[Zane Marit]

Chrono...thumbs up!!!! Excellent points and the list of must reads I agree with style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[TorynFarr]

i think the article was a great idea for people (like pete) who simply get lost and cant get on a logical track. i agree with your choices as to what to read. TTT is definitely top of the list. personally, i've never seen whiplash as a problem. as was stated before, its fairly obvious when a book takes place.

i also fail to see why tatooine ghost is a bad idea. maybe its my personal bias speaking (i'm a H/L fan more than anything else), but i think TG the best idea DR has come up with yet. I've always thought there should be more character focused books in the EU. The broader novels are all well and good for the main story arcs, but I think there need to be some fillers in there as well. and with the way the EU is spread out, theres no way to avoid a little whiplash.

[Chrono]

I have to admit, you guys are opening my eyes a little bit. I'm surprised there's not more people experiencing whiplash. And then again, maybe they just don't know about this forum. <g>

I guess my essay got a little off from where I intended it to go. It happens, I like to rant style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif . Sure, the novels are easy to identify where they occur, and what part of the timeline they reside in, but it's still hard to get used to the IDEA that there's such big time jumps between books. When you really sit and think about it (and maybe I'm just thinking too hard, as someone else pointed out), 25 years is a LOONG time.

It's these vast amounts of time that give me the Whiplash effect. Once again, going back to Allston's statement in an online chat, he says that he had to consider how many of the Wraiths would still be with the squadron decades-later. I'm sure other people have a hard time coming to terms with the change. Yes, we realize that years have passed, yes we realize that people change, but it's still hard to wrap our heads around some of the time gaps.

Anyway, maybe this still doesn't make sense to everyone, but it's how I feel.

[Nathan Butler]

Part of what we may not get, I suppose, is why, if you started with TAB when it first came out, the issue of "whiplash" still exists for you something like a decade after the fact.

[Whuffa]

Poor Pete... :p
I started off with the Corellian trilogy back in '97, and when I liked that I started reading the novels according to the timeline that was in the back of the Bantam books.

Plus I have a really great bookstore where they sort the SW novels by the timeline, so I guess I'm just lucky! :hehe:

[jade51999]

nope Chrono..i know what you mean..its the idea that Luke and Leia are almost 50+ years old in NJO which would mean that HAn is like 60..

if you start to think it starts to hurt your head!

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

at least mine does..

[James T. Skywalker]

Originally posted by jade51999@July 11 2002 - 08:00
nope Chrono..i know what you mean..its the idea that Luke and Leia are almost 50+ years old in NJO which would mean that HAn is like 60..
Actually, they're in their early- to mid-forties (they're 43 at the beginning of Vector Prime), which would put Han in his fifties, not sixty. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Just a point of clarification.

~JTS

[Luvinna.]

I know this is a little late in coming, but it took forever for my registration to be authorized.

While I have to agree for the most part with the list of books in your Beginner’s Guide (and the addition of 'Courtship of Princess Leia'), I would also suggest ‘Rogue Planet’ be read before starting the NJO. *That is, if the new reader wants to be just as confused about the character Vergere as the rest of us are. *Whose side is she on, anyway?! *

However, I do have to dispute the idea of Timeline Whiplash. *I don’t think any true Star Wars geek would suffer from such an ailment. *I will admit that reading the Bantam series as it came out was confusing at times, but I go back and reread most of those books often enough, that Whiplash isn’t even a factor for me. *

Also, a few things about Tim Zahn’s new book: *1- it’s a Star Wars book by Timothy Zahn! *I don’t care when it comes out, or where it falls in the timeline! *2- the fact that it comes out after the NJO is done and E3 is out says to me that the end of the NJO doesn’t mean the end of new Star Wars books (as I’ve heard some suggest). *3- Thrawn’s age really isn’t a factor when you consider what we know of Chiss culture. *I had always put Thrawn at about 60 years old in the Thrawn Trilogy. *If you do the math from there, taking some creative liberty since we don’t know the exact placement of this book in the timeline, it would put Thrawn between the ages of 20 and 25. *Is it really so hard to accept that Thrawn could have been in a high command position at that age when Jag Fel is a Colonel at the age of 20?

Last of all, I’d like to respond to your comments about ‘Tatooine Ghost.’ *I, for one, cannot wait for that book to come out! *And unless you’ve found more info on the plotline than I have, I don’t see how you can say that it “sounds about as intriguing as yesterday's newspaper.” *You really think that Leia is going to find out a bunch of stuff about Anakin Skywalker that we already know? *The way I see it, ‘Tatooine Ghost’ is going to qualify as a Prequel novel in the same way that ‘Rogue Planet’ qualifies as a NJO novel. *It may have Han and Leia as the main characters, but I think we’re going to learn some of what went on between AOTC and E3.

~~ Luvinna ~~

[James T. Skywalker]

I would also suggest ‘Rogue Planet’ be read before starting the NJO.

Eh. I dunno, while Rogue Planet does introduce you to Vergere (and it's now been "officially" confirmed that the Far Outsiders are the Yuuzhan Vong), it's not really important to the overall understanding of the EU. Sure, we see some cool scenes between Obi-Wan and Anakin, and Ani's skirt with the Dark Side does give it that foreboding sense of what we know will happen eventually.

But other than that, it's not in my opinion that important to the understanding of everything else.

~James T. Skywalker

[Luvinna.]

What I meant was that reading 'Rogue Planet' can help clarify some conversations that Vergere has in 'Hero's Trial'. *I didn't read RP until last summer, a year after HT came out, and I was very perplexed about some of her lines. *Why would she recognize the name Skywalker? *Because she knew Anakin at the Jedi Temple. *

And where did you find that it was officially confirmed that the Far Outsiders are the Yuuzhan Vong? *It was blatantly obvious to me that that's who they were. *Can't be sensed through the Force, and use biotechnology. *That was enough to convice me.

~~ Luvinna ~~

[Nathan Butler]

It was first confirmed in the NJO Sourcebook from WotC.

[jedivan]

Actually, _Tatooine Ghost_ takes place soon after _The Courtship of Princess Leia_, so it is already in an established timeframe, i.e. 4 years after "Return of the Jedi".

Sincerely,

David VanLangeveld

[Chrono]

I wouldn't put Rogue Planet on the list, simply because it doesn't really contain enough information to tie in to the whole Expanded Universe. If someone were wanting to read just enough to get into the NJO, then I'd suggest Rogue Planet, but otherwise, I wouldn't say it's completely necessary.

[Luminara Skye]

Chrono, I agree with you. *I find myself getting a bit confused at times. *Thank goodness for those timelines in the NJO books! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif * I've been reading SW novels since the novelizations of the OT came out. *Generally, I read all the books as they were published. *I've been there from basically the beginning. *

There's no use going to the library. *Our library is awful. *I never even tried. *I tried to find Anne Rice books there and they were all checked out and never brought back. *I've bought all my books. *(One advantage of being a grown-up with a job! * style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif *I knew there had to be at least one advantage! ) *I also keep the books in chronological order on my bookself. *But timelines are always appreciated when I pull a blank! *

There have been a couple books I couldn't get through, ei. SOTE and POT. *RP was odd. *I have to re-read it now that I know it was the intro to the Vong. *But at the time, it wasn't all that great for me. * * :sigh: * I was a little slow with putting Vergere from RP and Vergere from NJO together, though. * style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif * Then one day it hit me! * It was really cool how they put that one together.