Stop the Hatred, Learn the Truth

[ForceFlow]

Today with the war going on people hate Muslims but the truth is they do not understand what a muslim is they see there are some rotten apples in the barrel so they think the whole bunch is rotten. Muslims are peaceful people and followers of Islam. Islam means peace. Islam is alot like Christanity in some ways and is like Judaism in many ways. If we look back on history we see people are acting to muslims as they did to Jews in the Holocaust if we are not careful history will repeat itself but my question is who wants another Holocaust?
Many people do not hate Muslims because of the bad actions of a few but they do not stand up for them they do not speak there minds and help a American who is a Muslim. That is wrong no matter what your faith it your culture or your color of skin all people should be respected! Just think it could be your faith or your religon or your skin type that could be hated next! Wars hatred racism its all not worth it the more you hate the more of your life you waist! I understand 9-11 victims and soliders and there families may hate for specific reasons but you must remeber we are all human all the same! Not all people are bad many people are good! Muslims are no diffrent then other people they have hearts they cry they laugh they enjoy the happy times and they work there way through the bad ones.

We come from many places we follow many faiths we speak in many tongues but now it is time to realize we are all living beings who have feelings. Next time you see racism towards anyone put a stop to it. All it takes is little by little step by step we learn to accept and respect each other then we know what peace truly is.

-_______________
I know this is extremly controversial but i am trying to make a diffrence i see racism everywhere and maybe i thought i could help. please no flamming and T-Bone and other Mods i am sorry if this is a bad thing to post..

Fangs

[Blizzard]

I don't know if you are looking for people to agree with you or debate with you. But you don't have to remind people not to flame (well, most people).

I live in an apartment building where 99% of my neighbors are muslim. Best place I have lived, ever. They don't play loud music, they go to bed early, and they all speak English, unlike the other two major minority groups in our state. But for some reason they are always touching my clothes in the laundry room. They have no sense of personal space.

Jay Leno made fun of us last night on the Tonight Show, because the muslim cab drivers in Minneapolis refuse to transport liquor. (He didn't mention that they also refuse to transport dogs.)

If there are any muslims here I have a question: When I pass someone in the hall, my Somalian neighbors always want to pass me on their left. I am used to staying right, like traffic. Why is that?

[DblDwn]

Perhaps they drive on the left side of the road as in England? I don't know.

And I agree. Are we debating? Are we agreeing? Are we disagreeing? Are we waiting for the bar to open? I disagree that the treatment of Muslims is approaching anything like the Holocaust and I just compared the US to Hitler in another thread.

But I agree that racism is everywhere, even today, in America. We can say that we have evolved regarding civil rights for people of all creeds and colors and religions and races and sexual orientations and whatnot but we haven't. Some of us have. But others are still to prejudiced to see another human as just that.......another human as opposed to seeing color or creed or orientation.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

So is Blizzee saying I am a bad person as I go to bed late and play my music loud sometimes? :nahnah:

I think most people realise that it is a minority of Muslims that are 'bad' people, the same as a minority of Christians are 'bad' people and Hindu's etc, etc. However, I personally have trouble in getting over the celebrations in many towns in the Middle East that occurred right after 9/11. To me, all the 'good' people (note I stress people, rather than any religious group) should have come together and not allowed these celebrations to happen. That to me suggests that it may be more than a minority that hate Western civilisation. But in my everyday life, I have not come across such racism, so it is difficult for me to tell what the majority think and whether they do actually follow their peaceful religion rather than that which has become twisted through hatred.

I guess what I am stumbling to say is that perhaps 'the truth' is not known. Anyone I meet, I treat the same, regardless of age, sex, orientation, religion, colour, whatever. Until people wrong me, I remain completely open minded about people and hope they will treat me with the respect that I show them.

I do not think we are heading towards a holocaust. I do not know anyone that thinks Muslims should be wiped out. If 'we' were to kill a number of Muslim civilians, I like to think there would be no celebrations in 'our' towns. I think this would show that we are closer to being tolerant of others.

Having said that, humans, IMO, will always be prejudiced towards others not like them. It all stems back to the caveman days when it was a simple rule of survival for your tribe, you were wary of others who were not like you. Although some of us have come some way towards accepting all people just as humans, as DblDwn stated, there is a long way to go. I certainly don't think we will see a truly non-prejudiced Earth in our lifetimes.

[Sarah-Leia]

Today with the war going on people hate Muslims but the truth is they do not understand what a muslim is they see there are some rotten apples in the barrel so they think the whole bunch is rotten. Muslims are peaceful people and followers of Islam. Islam means peace. Islam is alot like Christanity in some ways and is like Judaism in many ways. If we look back on history we see people are acting to muslims as they did to Jews in the Holocaust if we are not careful history will repeat itself but my question is who wants another Holocaust?
Many people do not hate Muslims because of the bad actions of a few but they do not stand up for them they do not speak there minds and help a American who is a Muslim. That is wrong no matter what your faith it your culture or your color of skin all people should be respected! Just think it could be your faith or your religon or your skin type that could be hated next! Wars hatred racism its all not worth it the more you hate the more of your life you waist! I understand 9-11 victims and soliders and there families may hate for specific reasons but you must remeber we are all human all the same! Not all people are bad many people are good! Muslims are no diffrent then other people they have hearts they cry they laugh they enjoy the happy times and they work there way through the bad ones.

We come from many places we follow many faiths we speak in many tongues but now it is time to realize we are all living beings who have feelings. Next time you see racism towards anyone put a stop to it. All it takes is little by little step by step we learn to accept and respect each other then we know what peace truly is.

-_______________
I know this is extremly controversial but i am trying to make a diffrence i see racism everywhere and maybe i thought i could help. please no flamming and T-Bone and other Mods i am sorry if this is a bad thing to post..

Fangs

Everything you say is my opinion also. I am sick of some people treating Muslims like dirt and fearing them; just because a tiny group of people decide to commit such a terrible act. These terrorists can not be true Muslims; it is not the way of ANY religion to blow people up.


I'd better stop now, or my temper will get the better of me. :)

[nefertiti]

But it's the truth. And sometimes you gotta put it out there. For others to read and make comments about. 99% of religions are against killing. It's the intrepretation that gets good words and ideas going down hill.

I agree there is a problem. I'm not sure why good ol' God gets tracked in - he's got others things to do. But I guess my question would be, why aren't those who are against what their government are doing, becoming involved in the politics of their country. That's how we did it. I know...far to complicated now, Nef... Wake up girl, have you been listening!

The Navy gave me lots of things and new adventures. When I joined up, I hadn't even seen a real Black person. Yep, go ahead a laugh. And when I did finally met my first Black person, know what I wanted to do? Yep, you guessed it. I wanted to feel his skin and hair. (I politely asked...after all he was 6 ft tall and very Black! hahah). We talked for hours about everything and still talk today. Christmas cards with updates and phone calls on our anniversary (My First Black Person Day!).

But I wasn't afraid, I wanted to know. If anything thats the biggest thing I got from all that travel. I personally know several Muslems and we enjoy robust conversation about politics, religion and current events. One guy is the GI man and he and I talk all the time about what's going on "over there." He gave me a copy of the Koran and asked me to read it. It was beautiful - just like the Bible. Filled with great stories and lessons. When I tried to retun it, he said that he had bought it for me. And since then we talk and I learn something new everyday. It's great!

[James]

Everything you say is my opinion also. I am sick of some people treating Muslims like dirt and fearing them; just because a tiny group of people decide to commit such a terrible act. These terrorists can not be true Muslims; it is not the way of ANY religion to blow people up.


I'd better stop now, or my temper will get the better of me. :)

Sarah, have you heard of some things that Muslims say about Christians? I've heard dirty jokes originating from the Middle East about the sexual relationship between Jesus and his virgin mother. And then, when that Danish cartoon was published a while back with the martyred Muslims finding Paradise's virgins were out of stock, there was a huge uproar about it. Double standards, no?

What you have to bear in mind, Sarah, is that Islam is NOT a tolerant religion compared to religious standards across the world. The fundamentalist governments in Iran and other such countries, and the continual fighting in Iraq, is proof of this. It seems like nowadays no one can criticise anything non-white and non-Christian without someone screaming out loud "racism!"

[Solo]

Sarah, have you heard of some things that Muslims say about Christians? I've heard dirty jokes originating from the Middle East about the sexual relationship between Jesus and his virgin mother. And then, when that Danish cartoon was published a while back with the martyred Muslims finding Paradise's virgins were out of stock, there was a huge uproar about it. Double standards, no?

What you have to bear in mind, Sarah, is that Islam is NOT a tolerant religion compared to religious standards across the world. The fundamentalist governments in Iran and other such countries, and the continual fighting in Iraq, is proof of this. It seems like nowadays no one can criticise anything non-white and non-Christian without someone screaming out loud "racism!"

You indicated that Islam is not a tolerant religion compared to religious standards accross the world. Is it the fault of the religion or a bunch of extremists? There was a time when people were burned alive because they were believed to be witches? Was this the fault of Christianity? Or was someone using this in order to gain power?

It is not the religion, it is the people who must be blamed because of their acts. There are millions of Muslim people living quietly without disturbing anyone. We do not see them on TV, they will never make it to 6 o'clock news. We only see the extremists, we only see bombings.

[T-bone]

Every religion has "jerks" for lack of a better term. Don't hate the game, hate the playa.

[James]

You indicated that Islam is not a tolerant religion compared to religious standards accross the world. Is it the fault of the religion or a bunch of extremists? There was a time when people were burned alive because they were believed to be witches? Was this the fault of Christianity? Or was someone using this in order to gain power?

It is not the religion, it is the people who must be blamed because of their acts. There are millions of Muslim people living quietly without disturbing anyone. We do not see them on TV, they will never make it to 6 o'clock news. We only see the extremists, we only see bombings.

Witchcraft was a popular belief at the time. Let's take the example of early modern Europe. 16th and 17th century Europe was an uncertain time for the majority of people, and salvation was the only thing they had to hold on to. Witchcraft became a deep-seated, very real threat. Of course, it was manipulated by the government, say, for example, Elizabeth I and James I in England. But it was overridingly a popular belief.

Every religion has "jerks" for lack of a better term. Don't hate the game, hate the playa.

I agree with you T. Every religion has "jerks". I've had born-again Christians trying to tell me what I should believe in and how I am destined for damnation by not going to Church every Sunday.

I'm not saying that Islam is intolerant per se. But Islam leaders do not accept any other religion and if they do, they face popular discrimination and suspicion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but compare this to countries such as the United States, which was founded on Christian principles. I'm not making a stab at Muslims, I have several Egyptian and Iraqi friends who are some of the nicest people I've ever met. What I am saying is that there tend to be a heck of a lot of devout Muslims out there who believe every word the Koran says about infidels.

[Darth Darthy]

Every religion has "jerks" for lack of a better term. Don't hate the game, hate the playa.

:yoda:Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

[ForceFlow]

Well said Darthy!!!

T-Bone you make a good point!!!

James- yeah the leaders are not that tolerent but i am saying the people not the leaders. look at the base and not the tip of the iceberg to find its strengths!

Sarah-I know how it is!! i have to stop before i loose it!

Solo- you are right! we never see the good of the muslim people becouse of the war its sad they need to show the bad and not the good to make the death and fighting justified!

Blizze- debate,agree,disagree whatever you care for!

[Kam Solusar]

Extremism...in any context...is never a good thing. Muslim extremists have slandered the religion. I still remember an emotionally wrecked Muhammed Ali pleading with the country to not target the Islam faith not long after 9/11. But think of all the Christian extremism that is off putting in our own country, let alone around the world. Or political extremism.

The extreme is a dangerous place.

[Sargoth]

Death to all extremists!!!

[Virus]

Death to all extremists!!!

Totally agree....kinda. What ever happened to the saying when you were in grade school "a few bad apples ruined a good thing for everyone". Kinda applies to this topic.

[Kommandant Felix]

My viewpoints have been muddled by recent events...

My personal viewpoint is one of caution. I really don't believe Muslims are bad people, I really don't. However, I don't agree with their beliefs and they are a bit strange to me, especially since I have not grown up among them. I recognize that many of them are good people, and I have met many kind people who were Muslims. At the same time, however, still feel a bit uneasy about them.

Yes, I know that the extremists are way out there and do not accurately reflect the faith, but at the same time, Islam makes me nervous. I see how they give little quarter to troops, often torturing and abusing people who get in their way. Iran is constantly getting in the business of the United States. Let me ask you then: Don't we have a right to be a bit suspicious, a bit afraid?

What do I believe in? I believe that if you are scared, keep an eye on them. Nothing illegal or discriminatory, but you should have the right to keep them at arms length, if you so choose. Once again, however, the fear of terrorism gets out of hand and we often discriminate and hate these people. I believe that this is wrong, and while some of them may be evil, not all of them are.

I find that to be a fault of all religions: Once they grow too large, they are corrupted. Look at the Crusades, and the Inquisition. Muslim fought Christian over the so called "holy lands". I don't know what the Muslims are tought, but as Christians, we were never told to go out there and fight unbelievers. Period. You see, its not difficult to corrupt religion at all. We cannot blame people for being faithful in a time of trial. Just because they are different than us, that is no excuse to persecute them, especially in America, where we guanrantee religious freedom.

My opinion...keep an eye on 'em if you wish, but treat them humanely, as they deserve to be treated. Just because your religions differ doesn't make them a monster.

[nefertiti]

As long as we learn every day about people or religion or funny food - it’s a good thing. :)

Religious and political leaders have for thusands of years dictated the meaning of what “holy” words are supposed to mean. There is a kind intolerance in every religion. For me none of them says what I understand God or Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha or Zeus or Odin or Osiris or …well you get my drift…means for us to do. Be kind. Be tolerant. Be understanding. Teach. Learn. Grow.

As long as we keep on listening. Good one Fangs! Thanks!

[Kam Solusar]

Thou shalt not kill. Murder. The fifth commandment. But if you think about it...if you think about it, religion has never really had a problem with murder. Not really. No, more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason. All you have to do...all you have to do is look at slavery, the Middle East, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, and the World Trade Center, and you'll see how seriously the religious folks take "Thou Shalt Not Kill." The more devout they are...the more devout they are, the more they see murder as negotiable...it's negotiable. It depends, you know? It depends, it depends on who's doing the killing, and who's getting killed.

-George Carlin.

[ForceFlow]

In the Iraq and Afghanastan and Iran its became hard to tell who is the good guys and who are the bad guys.
These countries have good people with good intentions but no one sees the good! its media propaganda! everyone sees the bad people! the rotten apples! but they never see the good guys the ones who help out the US the good apples!
I do not blame anyone for being scared because no one knows the truth about Muslims and Islam.
I know because my friend talks to me about Islam.
Its not scary at all the names are just diffrent names for God and Jesus.
The people in America who are muslims suffer greatly do to this war when they are probably the nicest people you will ever meet! My friend is probably the nicest all around person in the world she and her familiy are wonderful!

The world would be better if people learned who each other were before judging and developing a fear.

[James]

I admire your passion in this topic ForceFlow. It's something that obviously means a lot to you.

But you have to look at it from the other side as well. What about a Christian living in say, Egypt? Egypt is, by Middle Eastern standards, a fairly liberal country. Would a Christian living there receive the same treatment as a Muslim living in a Western country - such as the States, UK, Australia or New Zealand?

[Solo]

I admire your passion in this topic ForceFlow. It's something that obviously means a lot to you.

But you have to look at it from the other side as well. What about a Christian living in say, Egypt? Egypt is, by Middle Eastern standards, a fairly liberal country. Would a Christian living there receive the same treatment as a Muslim living in a Western country - such as the States, UK, Australia or New Zealand?

Hold on there James. There are many countries where Muslim people and people from other religions live together peacefully. Look at Malaysia, Muslims, Christians and Budhists are all living together and no one is hurting the other. It is not because they are treating each other specially!, but because they are treating each other normally by respecting what they believe.

What do we do special to Muslim people living in Western Countries? Do they have special rights? Or do they simply live acc. to the conditions and laws of the country they are living in?

Muslim community is not only in the Middle East. You are always looking at Middle East when you bear the word Muslim. There are millions of Muslim people living in every part of the world. Why do you always have to start from the Middle East? You are looking at a bunch of extremists who can not even unite between themselves and than acting as if all Muslims are the same.

Also, I know about 15 Christian people living in Cairo, because they are members of multi-national companies just like me. Their families are living with them. So far none of them complained about Muslims they are living with. One of them told me traffic of Cairo was a bigger threat.:)

I love my job, because I get a chance to meet people from many different nations and religions. Don't just watch the news, go out meet people. That's the best way of understanding them.

[ForceFlow]

I admire your passion in this topic ForceFlow. It's something that obviously means a lot to you.

But you have to look at it from the other side as well. What about a Christian living in say, Egypt? Egypt is, by Middle Eastern standards, a fairly liberal country. Would a Christian living there receive the same treatment as a Muslim living in a Western country - such as the States, UK, Australia or New Zealand?


Hey James!

My friend goes to eygpyt every summer and she spends a month there and the treatment of people is of repsect.
Except with women the men can be nasty i hear!!

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Yes, Egypt can be a dangerous place. One of my cousins, who happens to be an attractive blonde lady was actually abducted by a guy who rode past on a camel. Fortunately for her, my other cousin is a game lass and stole a camel and went after her! When other locals realised what happened they went and helped my cousins and they were both fine, if somewhat shaken and it has now become a story that everyone laughs at. It could have panned out a lot differently though.

But, of course, as with anywhere in the world, it is only a minority of people that are retarded like that.

[Javen]

Hold on there James. There are many countries where Muslim people and people from other religions live together peacefully. Look at Malaysia, Muslims, Christians and Budhists are all living together and no one is hurting the other. It is not because they are treating each other specially!, but because they are treating each other normally by respecting what they believe.

This is not totally true. In most middle eastern countries Christians are a minority and get harassed, churches burned down, killed, thrown in prison. Sites are vandalized. People say to have tolerance for Muslims and they get it. But when it is asked in return in their countries it doesn't happen.

And it mostly happens with Islamic radicalism.

[Solo]

This is not totally true. In most middle eastern countries Christians are a minority and get harassed, churches burned down, killed, thrown in prison. Sites are vandalized. People say to have tolerance for Muslims and they get it. But when it is asked in return in their countries it doesn't happen.

And it mostly happens with Islamic radicalism.




My dear friend, I did not try to draw a pink portrait. I just showed some examples where Muslims and Christians live together peacefully. What I am trying to tell is that extremists are causing all these problems. You always see extremists on TV. Have you ever seen a TV show about peacefull muslims? No, because they are not exciting enough to make to 6 o'clock news. I am also aware of problems in Middle East and some other countries. All I'm saying is we shouldn't make decisions by just looking at extremists.

[ForceFlow]

well said Solo!

[nea200pl]

I read this thread with big interest.
My soon to be married partner is a Ghanaian Muslim, I'm not. Many times since Sep. 11 I heard stupid comment asking me how do I know he is not a terrorist and I'm being stupid to have relationship with him as he would leave me/hurt me/use me, I would have to convert etc... and other unnecessary and hurtful comments. Some people were easy to judge him by his religion not by trying to see what kind of person he is.
If not him I would be lost. And noone ever ask me to convert or to abandon my traditions. I respect his he respects mine.
Islam is a peacful religion, doesn't support violence and murder. Killing yourself and other people is considered as one of the biggest sins. That is why terrorist are not true Muslims to me. They are brainwashed people. If killing someone in the name of religion guarantees going to heaven why terrorist leaders don't do it themselves? Because they know it's a lie but are greedy of money and power so they would continue so called 'holy war'.
Unfortunately Koran is written in not very straightforward way in some places, so it's easy for brainwashing people to interprate it in a wrong way. I don't think Prophet Mohammed thought someone could use it to do so many bad things - if he could forseen it I can bet he would put everything clearly. I've seen examples on the internet how few translations changed words in some verses and it changed the whole meaning. Even 'jihad' or 'harem' meanings are completely turn upside down.
I don't believe in bad religion - they are bad people and bad traditional customs in some countries that have little to do with religion. And they make even the most paceful religion look like devil.
Unfortunately racism and predjudice exist everywhere and some people put everyone into 'one bag'.

[Sarah-Leia]

^ That's so sad about what people say to you about your partner. I wish you a happy and peaceful life. :)

[Tovor]

From Fight For Your Rights, an anti-racism song by Motley Crue. Never mind that it was about white/black; the message stands true for all:

"Martin Luther brought the truth
The color of our blood's the same
So drop the chains and solve the pain
And we all become one race..."

[Krogenar]

My own reactions to the dumbest song ever sung, 'Imagine' by John Lennon.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

So... imagine a meaningless Oops-There-It-Is, Universe?
No thank you!

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for

No great causes to defend? Justice? Love? Freedom?

And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace


No one believes in anything, so yeah -- there's not much left to talk about either.

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Join you in your Evil Super-Consciousness?
Just stay back Lennon.

Imagine no possessions

WHAT?!
I need my stuff! What about food? These are my fries. Mine.

I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

Sounds like Heaven. Oh wait, there is no Heaven.

You may say that I'm a dreamer

No, Mr. Lennon, I think you were dreaming of a new in-ground swimming pool, and you put this pabulum to music in order to get the cash. Sing about 'feety' pajamas, the ones with the feet sewn in. I love those. That would make a great song.


But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


And so ends the dumbest song ever sung.
I think the 'Pina Colada Song' is better.

Under what conditions could this crap become reality? Well, maybe if human beings were transmogrified into walking dandelions, that utilized photosynthesis to create sustinence, and we ceased to have hopes and dreams. But then we'd eventually compete for soil nutrients, etc. And we'd be warring with one another all over again. So that's what this song is about -- John Lennon's grand dream of making all humans into ambulatory non-sentient vegetables.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

You wanna lay off them doobies bro. :blink:

[ForceFlow]

Um thank you Krogenar for your um intresting post.

Nea200pl
I hope things get better one day, the prejudice makes me sick. I have heard the same things as you, kids at school talk about it. one day in class a boy said "all muslims are terroists" teachers learned that day i had temper. i told calmly he is wrong, he kept saying i ended up yelling, he kept saying it, i ended up kicking him in the shins and bouncing markers off his head.
its sad that my age group 14 through 15 only listen to what people tell them they do not create there own opinion and miss out on meeting some really great people.

[James]

I quite like that song. Of course it's not meant to be taken seriously, lay off it for a while, Krog.

[The Marbleman]

I'm going to back Krogenar up on this one. When Thomas More wrote Utopia (literally "no place" in Greek), he wrote it in part to shame the Christian nations which were ostensibly so superior compared to other cultures. More showed how much his contemporaries had to be desired, and offered a highly idealized place to humble and inspire Western civilization to do better.

There is always the hope of improving, but I do worry that people "imagine" too much. John Lennon had wonderful dreams, but what did he accomplish? Are the fruits of his labour only idealism and inspirational lyrics? We should search for practical solutions for the crooked timber of humanity, which respects human freedom and dignity.

I'll give Alexander Hamilton the final words for me: "Is it not time to awake from the deceitful dream of a golden age and to adopt as a practical maxim for the direction of our political conduct that we, as well as the other inhabitants of the globe, are yet remote from the happy empire of perfect wisdom and perfect virtue?"

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Yeah, Thomas More had every right to shame nations when he himself beat his wife. :giveup:

[The Marbleman]

Yeah, Thomas More had every right to shame nations when he himself beat his wife. :giveup:

Abraham Lincoln was, by our modern standards, racist, but he was well ahead of his time in other significant ways, I think we can agree. More had major faults, and he also harbored a strong irrational hatred for Lutherans. But we don't remember Lincoln for racism, and we don't remember More for his respect for women or Lutherans. . . in the times they lived they offered something tangible to the advance of civilization.

Modern sacred icons like John Lennon, Ghandi, MLK. . . they were just as human. . . they were just as susceptible to selfishness and prejudice and corruption. They were not perfectly enlightened role models. There is no reason to expect they (or we, for that matter) are any better suited for Utopia.

More would have been ejected from his own paradise, I agree. That doesn't mean Utopia exists or can exist.

[Sargoth]

John Lennon had wonderful dreams, but what did he accomplish?


Read the FBI file on him. He accomplished enough to be considered a "grave threat" to the Nixon administration. Every young man who embraced Lenon's ideals, burned his draft card and adopted pacifism was one less pawn to be tossed in the Vietnam meatgrinder.

[kopernikuz]

Read the FBI file on him. He accomplished enough to be considered a "grave threat" to the Nixon administration. Every young man who embraced Lenon's ideals, burned his draft card and adopted pacifism was one less pawn to be tossed in the Vietnam meatgrinder.
Oh please... the whole thing was a ploy by the Nixon administration, whose corruption is well known, to help him win an election... not because of any real or perceived threat. Lennon was nothing but a performance artist and protest leader, like thousands of others at the time... Lennon just had an advantage on other protest leaders because he made a name for himself because of his involvement with three other famous british moptops. One of whom was infinitely more talented ;)... just MHO... :P

Anyway... all he accomplished was publicity for his movement to remove Nixon from electibility... and he failed even at that. He's no different than Michael Moore's failed attempt to cost Bush re-election, and he incurred the ire of Nixon's people in the process... that's what got him listed as a threat... but everybody knows it wasn't true. Lennon was no threat to anything except Nixon's election... and even that threat was severely overblown, since clearly it did not happen and Nixon won by a landslide. One could even argue, if they liked, that Lennon's efforts only inflamed his detractors enough to go out and vote (Bush re-election parrallel again?) and cost more American lives in Vietnam. I wouldn't argue that, because it's moot. But lets not pretend he was more than he was..

Lennon was just a musician and an artist... and brilliant at creating a buzz around himself (and his causes, which I'm not knocking please note)... much like current idealistic failed change-maker filmmaking artist Michael Moore. Other than that... he didn't stop anyone from going to Vietnam... anyone who burned their draft cards or protested didn't necessarily do so because of Lennon's influence or even idealism... they did so out of the most human of all instincts: self-preservation. Guys didn't move to Canada because they loved Lennon... they did so because they didn't want to die. This comes from their innards, not from the influence of a musician and his goofy stunts.

And thanks for calling my dad a pawn for not doing so. I'm sure he and everyone else who served their country during this tragic time appreciate your disrespect.

[Sargoth]

Oh please... the whole thing was a ploy by the Nixon administration, whose corruption is well known, to help him win an election... not because of any real or perceived threat.


If he wasn't a 'percieved threat' to Nixon's re-election, why look for a reason to deport him? You just made my point. Lennon was a focal point of the anti-war / anti-nixon movement. How effective he was at changing the course of the election is irrelevant. According to Nixon, he may as well have been 'public enemy #1'.


he didn't stop anyone from going to Vietnam... anyone who burned their draft cards or protested didn't necessarily do so because of Lennon's influence or even idealism...
I don't think I can agree with that. Lennon was one of a handful at the very spearhead of the anti-war movement. And this movement *did* have a large social impact.


And thanks for calling my dad a pawn for not doing so. I'm sure he and everyone else who served their country during this tragic time appreciate your disrespect.:mad:
Seriously, kope. If you look at my posting history, you'll see I have nothing but the utmost respect for our servicemen and veterans, so come off it. The word pawn absolutely and accurately describes how our troops were treated by the government. It was not a perjorative.

[kopernikuz]

If he wasn't a 'percieved threat' to Nixon's re-election, why look for a reason to deport him? You just made my point. Lennon was a focal point of the anti-war / anti-nixon movement. How effective he was at changing the course of the election is irrelevant. According to Nixon, he may as well have been 'public enemy #1'.
No, I made my point. Perceived threat to the "country" was what I was discussing, Nixon manufactured that... his only threat was to Nixon and thus why Nixon called out a witchhunt on him. I'm simply pointing out that Lennon was not as threatening as you want to imply based on his FBI record just because Nixon wanted to silence him. Nixon was worried about his ass... not the country. My point about it being ineffective is wholly relevant... Nixon did nothing but infuriate Lennon's followers and Lennon did nothing but infuriate Nixon's... in the end the effect Lennon had on Nixon's re-election was nada.

Threat was to election + Elected anyway = Threat moot. Nixon was an idiot to waste time on him... all it did was serve to make Lennon more of a celebrity... but that's what he was. A celebrity.

Lennon and in fact no protest organization really had a threat against the war... it continued regardless of the protests... in fact it escalated during some of the most significant rebuffs. I can't believe this is even in question considering the state of the war we're in right now as well. Seriously, Bruce Springsteen is as outspoken now as Lennon was now... but he certainly isn't a threat... or is making a difference, other than rallying those who are already behind him.

You really believe Lennon changed people's minds about the war? Or did he simply rally those who were of like minds? People were (and are today) set on their opinions of the war before any celebrity rendered his judgement, please. But celebrities are lightning rods that help supporters converge together (rallies, concerts, etc...) But did they really change anyone's mind?

Honestly, my opinions of Bush and the war have fluctuated throughout this whole time... but it's always been because of the situation... not because George Clooney or Leo DiCaprio say something. I think you give way too much credit to the celebrity influence. They're spokespeople... they rally those already convinced to the cause and rarely convert.

In the case of Lennon and Nixon... Lennon had an opportunity to rally the people who followed him to vote... let's face it, most of them were young college folks more interested in attending rallies and concerts than actually voting in an election. If he could get those folks to the polls, things might change. This... and only this... is what scared Nixon. He would be much more at risk if they put down their signs and picked up the balloting pen. He manufactured a threat to the country and tried to have him deported...

He failed to have him deported... and Lennon failed to rally his followers to bring the votes. They both lost. If Nixon had been successful... if his re-election was in part due to his attacks on Lennon... then I might agree with you. But it wasn't. He won because Lennon was unsuccessful in his endeavors... therefore not a real threat to anything.

My whole point is that the threat was completely manufactured... you know it. But yet you mentioned this as though he was more than he was, simply because of an exagerrated and overblown conspiracy.

But, I guess this belongs in a "The US vs. John Lennon" thread, boy did this thread tangent, LOL ... did anyone see that movie?

[ForceFlow]

It ties in with the thread Kopernikuz so do not worry!

:D

[JediKeri]

I read this thread with big interest.
My soon to be married partner is a Ghanaian Muslim, I'm not. Many times since Sep. 11 I heard stupid comment asking me how do I know he is not a terrorist and I'm being stupid to have relationship with him as he would leave me/hurt me/use me, I would have to convert etc... and other unnecessary and hurtful comments. Some people were easy to judge him by his religion not by trying to see what kind of person he is.
If not him I would be lost. And noone ever ask me to convert or to abandon my traditions. I respect his he respects mine.
Islam is a peacful religion, doesn't support violence and murder. Killing yourself and other people is considered as one of the biggest sins. That is why terrorist are not true Muslims to me. They are brainwashed people. If killing someone in the name of religion guarantees going to heaven why terrorist leaders don't do it themselves? Because they know it's a lie but are greedy of money and power so they would continue so called 'holy war'.
Unfortunately Koran is written in not very straightforward way in some places, so it's easy for brainwashing people to interprate it in a wrong way. I don't think Prophet Mohammed thought someone could use it to do so many bad things - if he could forseen it I can bet he would put everything clearly. I've seen examples on the internet how few translations changed words in some verses and it changed the whole meaning. Even 'jihad' or 'harem' meanings are completely turn upside down.
I don't believe in bad religion - they are bad people and bad traditional customs in some countries that have little to do with religion. And they make even the most paceful religion look like devil.
Unfortunately racism and predjudice exist everywhere and some people put everyone into 'one bag'.


We Christians call it Scripture Twisting. And sadly, it happens in our religion too. For us according to the bible it is a sin to add anything or take away anything from the bible to suit our own needs instead of God's. But unfortunatly not every "leader or pastor" pays heed to that and end up leading their flocks astray and it's hurtful to everybody. (Like Fred Phelps for instance, (I don't like that the man is from Kansas, but I'm hopeing God'll straighen the man out) that's also it's own can of worms).

It's sad that not everyone can live together.

[ForceFlow]

scripture twisting....intresting term. everyone living together has been impossible since the garden of eden. a little of acceptence can go a real long way. all it takes is one person to lead for the others to follow.