The Romance In AOTC: Was It Really That Bad?

[electric]

Don't want to ressurect year old threads, so I'll start a new one. I think one of the biggest blasts I've heard about AOTC was the chessy romance and how nerdy and immature Anakin sounded

Personally, I think it was actually very well done, for those same reasons... Anakin had spend the majority of his life being indoctrinated in a very strict system and probably never had the chance to communicate with women since leaving Tatooine. The way he played it out really did make him sound like someone who grew up like that, which is consistent with the story. I don't think suave flirting is one of the skills the Jedi are taught, especially with this whole "attachment is forbidden" mantra

I have no idea why Padme fell for a guy like that, maybe it was because they lived through some very stressful situations together (some say this can make people fall in love). Still, I thought that Anakin's part was quite good and true to the character and his story

I'll be the first to say AOTC's story is quite far from "Gone with the wind", but in my mind Anakin just acted consistently with the story. He fell in love, and just didn't know what to do with his feelings :like:

[bruciarsi]

I think what makes it bad for most people is the "not like sand" stuff.

[shagbo]

I think what makes it bad for most people is the "not like sand" stuff.

...And the "are you an angel" part. Gag.

[shagbo]

...And the "are you an angel" part. Gag.

Oh, wait! Wrong movie... heh heh. How noob-ish of me.

[Rabid Whiphid]

I once heard (or maybe it was read) something George Lucas said that really put the love scenes in AOTC in perspective for me, and allowed me to be more accepting of them.

He pointed out that, Anakin, being roughly 19-20 years old in AOTC, is at that difficult phase that many of us go through at that age, if we are honest with ourselves, where everything seems hyper-emotional, hyper-dramatic, and we tend to take new romantic relationships more seriously than we should and even gush about our emotions and over-express ourselves, in ways that might embarass us later on.

Of course, back when I was 19 or 20 I would have said that was ridiculous... but now that I'm 34, whenever I think back on my behavior at that age... how over emotional (whether the emotions were good or bad) I sometimes got over romantic relationships which now seem so immature and childish to me... I have to admit, GL's theory helps the love scenes in AOTC make a lot more sense.

Of course, how well GL executed his idea, or whether the dialogue (or acting) did service to that idea, is open to a lot of debate. But at least it makes a little more sense as to why Anakin is being over emotional, gushing about his feelings, and just plain "trying to hard"...


-

[nefertiti]

As an even older person, I didn't see it as romance. Yes, I agree those "introduction" years...intro to social experiences, girl/boys and what the heck do you do? Was clearly shown in the film. They were both pretty clueless. Except about how they felt.

When my daughter came home and told me she was in love. I looked for the biggest lock for her door! LOL! No, we talked about it. These two didn't feel there was anyone to talk about it with.

The balcony scene was just sweet. And touching. He was bold; she was shy.

The picnic scene was ok. I smiled here and there as they did the "dance." It was innocent - and I think that was what the point was.

The evening scene language turned me down. I thought it was overly formal...especially the lack of contractions. Do not. Will not. Maybe it was the "courtly" stuff...but it became two actors rather than the characters, trying to get through their lines.

Going into the arena was good. She was obviously the one with her head screwed on...but hey....when death looks you in the eye, you gotta clean up and be straight. Tell the truth.

I never expected to see some love scenes or hints of skin or anything else that would have put more physical into the film...but know what?

I never forgot that Anakin was Vader and at sometime in the future he was going to kill his wife (so we thought....), then years later torture his daughter and try to kill his son. I saw that character a couple of times in AotC...and I paused.

[Rabid Whiphid]

I never forgot that Anakin was Vader and at sometime in the future he was going to kill his wife (so we thought....), then years later torture his daughter and try to kill his son. I saw that character a couple of times in AotC...and I paused.


I absolutely agree with you there. I remember the first time I saw AOTC... some of that dialogue about "then they should be made to."... "Sounds like a dictatorship to me"... "well, if it works..." gave me the chills, especially considering that this kid is someday going to put those ideals into action, in a very misguided, tyrannical way...

And there were other lines which might have sounded cheezy within the context of AOTC by itself but which also take on a tragic, sinister edge when you consider this kid's future as Darth Vader - particularly:

"I am haunted by the kiss you never should have given me."
"You are in my very soul, tormenting me..."
"I can't breathe..."
"I will even learn to stop people from dying..."

These aren't completely natural or realistic lines you would expect a young person in his position to say. Yet they all describe or point to things he will feel (either emotionally or physically) when he turns to the dark side and after he becomes Vader. Qui-Gon said Anakin could "see things before they happen"... Perhaps these awkward lines were subconcious premonitions of his future feelings? Blurted during an emotional outburst over his present situation?

C-R-E-E-P-Y!!!



-

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I read somewhere that GL wanted to make the love scenes 'old style' in terms of the language used and the way feelings were expressed. Even given this though, to me the scenes came across as a bit lame and I just didn't see any connection from Padme's side. To me it makes no real sense as to why she would fall in love with Anakin who was in so many ways still a little boy. The point about the 'introduction' years is certainly valid though.

[lovelucas]

"are you an angel?" - spoken by the 9-year old Anakin. Sure, I have even heard a child speak in these terms.

Originally Posted by nefertiti
I never forgot that Anakin was Vader and at sometime in the future he was going to kill his wife (so we thought....), then years later torture his daughter and try to kill his son. I saw that character a couple of times in AotC...and I paused
This is really insightful....referencing those words and what they will mean -"I am haunted by the kiss you never should have given me."
"You are in my very soul, tormenting me..."
"I can't breathe..."
"I will even learn to stop people from dying..."
The only one that seems like a chunk of fromage is "haunted by the kiss you never should have given me" but it sure is prophetic, isn't it? the remaining dialogue captures the style of courtly love and Star Wars has much in common with the story of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, I think.

Qui Gon said Anakin could "see things before they happen"... Perhaps these awkward lines were subconcious premonitions of his future feelings?
Interesting Rabid W....I never quite put it in those words, but yes, you're saying what I'm thinking.

[Kam Solusar]

I read somewhere that GL wanted to make the love scenes 'old style' in terms of the language used and the way feelings were expressed. Even given this though, to me the scenes came across as a bit lame and I just didn't see any connection from Padme's side. To me it makes no real sense as to why she would fall in love with Anakin who was in so many ways still a little boy. The point about the 'introduction' years is certainly valid though.

I think Padme in AotC is a perfect example of why Lucas isn't an actor's director. Portman could easily nail what Lucas was going for, but it looks as if she doesn't KNOW what Lucas wants. That idea that she may have not been as over the top in love with Anakin as he was with her (she hadn't really thought of him in those terms until he showed back up at age 20), but as soon as they spend time together she does indeed fall in love with him. Couple that with the really poor decision to have her quantify her admission of love with the realization that they are about to die, and you sully her half of the romance.

[lovelucas]

Couple that with the really poor decision to have her quantify her admission of love with the realization that they are about to die, and you sully her half of the romance.

I've heard this complaint before but I've never understood why this "sullies" the romance?? Padme was denying it as long as she could and now that they are about to die she is free to reveal her true feelings....
so....I'm still perplexed as to why that damages the assessment of genuine feelings of love. not saying anyone is wrong if that's their take on it - I just don't see the connection.

[Kam Solusar]

It's under duress. Yes, Leia confesses love at almost the same sort of circumstance, but she doesn't actually say "In case I don't ever get the chance again, I love you." It really calls in to question whether or not she really loves Anakin, or was just trying to make him feel better because she thought they were goners.

I agree with you that she really did love him, and that her stoic way was shoved aside by the impending doom, just like Leia (since it's supposed to invoke Han/Leia in a way), but they shouldn't have had her qualify the situation. She should have said something more like "I was afraid of it before, but now I'm not." It says the same thing, without directly acknowledging the "I think I'm going to die" part. That would keep most of the rabid fanboys/girls off that dialogue.

[nefertiti]

...and you know the word "romance" actually fits the relationship. Even though we know that they are intimate with each other...it doesn't really fit. They always seem to be still courting...I don't know. Not a real relationshp. Oh, don't get me wrong...they have their problems. But for me (the relationship failure) - along side the problems and day to day issue is that place where lovers go - to be lovers.

I know...I know... there wasn't enough time. Or Lucas didn't think it was important.

For all of its intensity, they never do find a place even in private that is there for them. Trusting in each other. Listening to each other. Oh, maudlin me....

I really did hope...even knowing...that they would make it.

[lovelucas]

yes, I'm prepared to be flicked - but...
the hairbrush scene - the dialogue and the ambiance suggests a long-term a very intimate relationship.....kidding, joking, from Padme and admiration from Anakin. But they are planning for the future together.

[Talcy]

In answer to the question...

Yes. Yes it was. It was unforgivably bad, and because of one scene in particular.

I found the scene where Anakin tells Padme how he feels, by the fireside, had absolutely the worst dialogue in any of the films. I squirmed in my seat and felt truly sorry for Hayden Christiansen having to spout that overcooked guff. The scene looked nice and Natalie Portman had one of her better moments in all 3 films for me, but his lines just ruined the whole thing.

But I thought they definitely improved it in Revenge of the Sith.

[nefertiti]

The hairbrush scene was difficult...playful, a level of intimacy...but for me still insight into the tragedy..getting ready to happen. And Pad...did she look bad or do I have a bad disc? Yes...yes...pregnancy, politics and stress...but even I looked good while carrying.

Talcy... I liked that scene. Two clueless kids...they didn't really know how to speak to each other and the overly formal words, for me they pointed out that they were in uncharted space....

[lovelucas]

Ok – what specifically makes this dialogue from the fireplace scene bad for people? Remembering, as always, that George is writing for the courtly love and times of King Arthur.

Anakin is trying to persuade Padme to ignore the “real” world where they both are committed to positions that don’t allow personal involvement. Padme, as we have discussed previously, is sending two opposing messages – no with her words, yes with her wardrobe…….she’s falling but needs to be the adult with the stop sign…so she does it with words – “We would be living a lie” and predicts that this relationship will destroy them – she knows it, he knows it and Anakin does reconsider…on the surface but it is Padme who will later disregard all logic. I think this is really an important scene as it shows them both treading on dangerous ground, acknowledging that this is so but silently not abandoning the prospect at all.

and Nifer:
And Pad...did she look bad or do I have a bad disc?
I don't think she looked bad - I don't think Natalie can look bad - she just was physically different...
The hairbrush scene was a pick up scene filmed in early 2005.
Natalie was in the middle of filming V for Vendetta - the role where she shaved her head and also lost weight to portray Evey as a political prisoner.

[Kam Solusar]

The dialogue is wooden, stiff, and stilted, with over use of contractions. It's got the right contextual meaning, but almost every single line clunks hard.

[lovelucas]

and awkward...as it should be.

[Kam Solusar]

Awkward is fine, when it comes from the portrayal and not from the dialogue. Awkward is the perfect tone for that scene, but I want to see it in the them, not entirely what they say. Fumbling over the words. Fidgeting too much. That sort of thing.

[Fish1941]

I think that is all a simple case of the Anakin/Padme romance being different from the Leia/Han romance, which had been approached in a more modern style. And most late 20th/early 21st century moviegoers seem incapable of understanding the early Romantic style of the PT romance and dialogue.

Looking at the OT romance without rose-colored glasses, the Leia/Han romance had not been perfectly realized either.

[Talcy]

"I feel dizzy. I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me. What can I do? I will do anything you ask..."

This. Dialogue. Is. Abominable.

I don;t believe any of this "awkward" stuff. Anakin never spoke like this before, so why should he express himself this way now? This Jim Stienman-esque rubbish just leaps out as being completely unbelievable. No wonder she turned him down at first. GL says he is writing for an older time, King Arthur and all that? Than why does it only appear in such a strained fashion here? Star Wars has always been full of strained and hokey dialogue, but this scene is just way too much. It sticks out like a sore thumb amongst the other romance scenes in Attack of the Clones. It's a real shame, as the setting, mood and lighting og the scene is great. But all of that is ruined by Anakin's speech.

Kam, I think you're bang on - movies are show, not tell. It should come from their behaviour, not always from what they say.

Of course the Han/Leia romance isn't perfect (at least there was a little sub-text in what they said to each other before they kissed, which made it fun to watch and more believeable), but that does not take away from the fact, for me, that these crucial scenes for Anakin and Padme's characters were completely fudged.

[nefertiti]

That's cool. It does tend to stay with you ...the scene...not melding into the rest of the film.

[Talcy]

...the scene...not melding into the rest of the film.
Absolutely. :)

[lovelucas]

I don;t believe any of this "awkward" stuff. Anakin never spoke like this before

"Just being around her is......intoxicating" - yes he did!

you guys are just grumpy

[nefertiti]

(...and lonely...and confused...and looking for love in all the wrong places....) *sigh*

Eh, you're probably right. Grumpy old people. Certainly my preconcieved ideas of what I was going to see and what I knew had a lot to do with it. It's just a cog missing for me....:)

[Kam Solusar]

I'm not grumpy at all. I simply acknowledge that while it may be what Lucas wanted, Lucas made an extremely bad choice.

[Talcy]

I don;t believe any of this "awkward" stuff. Anakin never spoke like this before

"Just being around her is......intoxicating" - yes he did!

you guys are just grumpy

As for the "intoxicating line", while I think it's hokey as well, it's nowhere near the exaggerated depths of his fireside speech. It sounds more like something Meatloaf or Bonnie Tyler should be singing.

And I'm always grumpy.

[RollaFett]

Meatloaf or Bonnie Tyler! :rofl:


I see how GL was trying to make Anakin seem awkward at expressing feelings that he doesn't really know how to express, but I agree with Talcy. It just sounded much worse than GL could possibly have intended. No one plans for that level of awkwardness. It was over the top, dialogue-wise, and way below standards, performance-wise. Unfortunately, with GL directing, it never has a chance to improve.

[Talcy]

"I feel dizzy. I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me. What can I do? I will do anything you ask..."

One possible response to this from Padme could have gone along these lines:

"Anything? Then just do whatever the restaining order says."

[RollaFett]

Heh, heh...nice.

Y'know, it's frustrating because you can see what GL was trying to accomplish and I like the idea. Why couldn't he have brought in another accomplished writer to help out with this stuff? And don't give me Jonathan Hales, i said accomplished.

[lovelucas]

because it's his baby - and George relates to not being able to say the right thing at the right time (identifying Jay as Captain Panaka) - and the poor guy never really had a lady in his life who loved him (Marcia Marcia Marcia) - and thus this is his romance.

and I disagree with the assessment of the acting - Hayden and Natalie were ok in this scene and in that final shot (can't find it) "no - you're right, it would destroy us" he is wonderful.

http://tiedostot.pilvikaupunki.net/AOTC1080i/vlcsnap-10832618.png

http://tiedostot.pilvikaupunki.net/AOTC1080i/vlcsnap-10849110.png

and Nefir: when you mentioned you had a different vision, how did you anticipate this being played out?

[Kam Solusar]

The acting was superb, considering the complete lack of normal direction in a shooting environment that screams for actor hand-holding, the horrid dialogue, and stoic characters. It really was kind of a lose-lose when you think about that last part, but like I said, I really think that Lucas made some outright wrong choices.

[lovelucas]

It sounds more like something Meatloaf or Bonnie Tyler should be singing.

A Total Eclipse of the Heart . . . . sure, absolutely Bonnie and that's what's happening here....

[Talcy]

Not being able to say the right thing at the right time is one thing. But I still say that this scene was fudged gloriously. The fact that it's his baby is no excuse for me - in fact it may be why I think he lost sight of what he was trying to accomplish in that he got too close to it and needed to step back and view things a bit more mercilessly, as any good filmmaker should.

I'm no prequel basher (I like 'em), but there are definitely things I know he misjudged horribly, the love story being the most glaring as far as I'm concerned.

[RollaFett]

because it's his baby - and George relates to not being able to say the right thing at the right time (identifying Jay as Captain Panaka) - and the poor guy never really had a lady in his life who loved him (Marcia Marcia Marcia) - and thus this is his romance.

and I disagree with the assessment of the acting - Hayden and Natalie were ok in this scene and in that final shot (can't find it) "no - you're right, it would destroy us" he is wonderful.



Sure it's his baby, that's obvious. Are you saying that the OT wasn't? Because assignments were farmed out for two of those films. I know a lot of the reasoning behind that was because GL had so much on his plate, business-wise, and it would've been near impossible to concentrate on directing. That said, it worked out rather well for those two films, and exceptionally well for ESB. It should've been done, to some extent, with the PT.
As far as the performances go, I'm going to revise my earlier statement.
I remember defending the acting in AOTC, in particular Hayden, a few years ago in a different thread. I had no reason to suddenly call them 'way below standard' today. I guess I got a little caught up with my other criticism. So, I too, thought that Hayden was just fine in AOTC, and also in that specific scene.
The dialogue, though, is another issue.

[Kam Solusar]

Wasn't gonna happen. I truly believe Lucas has a sore spot about the movie he had the least hands on work on being usually regarded as the best of the lot.

[RollaFett]

Hmmm...maybe, but I've ever seen or heard or read anything to that extent. Wouldn't be surprised though.

[Kam Solusar]

There was something he said not too long ago that intimated that he considered ESB the worst one.

It's one of those circumstantial evidence type things. He sure acted like a petulant child about doing them himself this time around.

I also think McCallum wasn't good for him.

[lovelucas]

that comment made by George this year was done in jest....

and regarding the romance - whatever negatives you have to say about the dialogue, the visuals are stellar -

http://tiedostot.pilvikaupunki.net/AOTC1080i/vlcsnap-10910333.png

http://tiedostot.pilvikaupunki.net/AOTC1080i/vlcsnap-10909871.png

http://tiedostot.pilvikaupunki.net/AOTC1080i/vlcsnap-10911214.png

[Kam Solusar]

Well, that's the problem isn't it. Lucas has this notion that he can have sub par dialogue if it all looks pretty. That's hogwash, really.

And I think there was more truth in his jest than pure jest.

[Jestyr]

"I feel dizzy. I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me. What can I do? I will do anything you ask..."

This. Dialogue. Is. Abominable.

I don;t believe any of this "awkward" stuff. Anakin never spoke like this before, so why should he express himself this way now? This Jim Stienman-esque rubbish just leaps out as being completely unbelievable. No wonder she turned him down at first. GL says he is writing for an older time, King Arthur and all that? Than why does it only appear in such a strained fashion here? Star Wars has always been full of strained and hokey dialogue, but this scene is just way too much. It sticks out like a sore thumb amongst the other romance scenes in Attack of the Clones. It's a real shame, as the setting, mood and lighting og the scene is great. But all of that is ruined by Anakin's speech.

Kam, I think you're bang on - movies are show, not tell. It should come from their behaviour, not always from what they say.

Of course the Han/Leia romance isn't perfect (at least there was a little sub-text in what they said to each other before they kissed, which made it fun to watch and more believeable), but that does not take away from the fact, for me, that these crucial scenes for Anakin and Padme's characters were completely fudged.

Nothing in that scene can top this classic: "..I wish I could just wish away my feelings.." I don't care what kind of 30's film asthetic you are going for, this is poor syntax at its most egregious. A real dialogue writer never uses the same verb twice in a sentence, unless we're talking "Run, Joe, Run!"

[Darth Massacrus]

^I noticed that as well.....

[Kam Solusar]

Nothing in that scene can top this classic: "..I wish I could just wish away my feelings.." I don't care what kind of 30's film asthetic you are going for, this is poor syntax at its most egregious. A real dialogue writer never uses the same verb twice in a sentence, unless we're talking "Run, Joe, Run!"

Made worse by Christensen emphasizing the word both times it shows up in the sentence.

[James]

That's something that peeved me as well with that "wish i could just wish..."

Made 100000000000 times worse by Hayden's poor acting and terrible delivery of lines.

[RollaFett]

Nothing in that scene can top this classic: "..I wish I could just wish away my feelings.." I don't care what kind of 30's film asthetic you are going for, this is poor syntax at its most egregious. A real dialogue writer never uses the same verb twice in a sentence, unless we're talking "Run, Joe, Run!"

Makes me wonder why you didn't use the obvious, "Run, Forrest, Run!" example instead.

[Talcy]

^But, is that how it's written? What if it's "Run, Forrest! Run!"?

But, yes, the "wish" bit is cack as well. I'd forgotten about that.

[lovelucas]

and you guys like prequels? I would have never ever come to that conclusion.

[Kam Solusar]

and you guys like prequels? I would have never ever come to that conclusion.

Just because we didn't like one aspect of them doesn't mean we can't appreciate the whole.

Part of it, for me anyway, is that I like them, but I also saw how they could have been elite.

[lovelucas]

actually that's fine and dandy but some of the respones in this thread would indicate the dislike is rather intense and multiple -

just adding another dimension that should allow for some cutting of the slack -

http://starwars.fidm.edu/exhibition/gallery/queen-amidala-and-handmaiden.shtm?section=exhibition&subsection=gallery#fix

http://starwars.fidm.edu/exhibition/gallery/amidala-coffin.shtm?section=exhibition&subsection=gallery#fix

[Jestyr]

Makes me wonder why you didn't use the obvious, "Run, Forrest, Run!" example instead.

:hehe: I guess I couldn't bring myself to compare Forest Gump with Star Wars.

[nefertiti]

Ya know there are just so many factors to justifying an answer. When you saw it, with whom, your age, personal life, experiences and I could go on.

If you were a young person, then the vocab, actions and decisions made were probably within your scope.

If you were older - in a relationship - then it struck you as something working to hard to be "real."

If you were an old fart:) - maybe it was something you once thought that whole rig-a-ma-roll was all about.

There really isn't a wrong answer...

[Talcy]

On balance, I like the prequels - there are aspects I love and there are aspects I dislike. I don't particularly "hate" any aspects of them. Jeez, I saw TPM A LOT when it came out.

But I do believe that they are inferior films to the original trilogy and Nef has a lot of valid points there, although that's likely a discussion for another thread.

[RollaFett]

^ That's a good way of putting it. I'm pretty much in the same boat, except I know I have experienced feelings of hate at times when it comes to a certain Gungan.

[Fish1941]

"I feel dizzy. I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me. What can I do? I will do anything you ask..."

This. Dialogue. Is. Abominable.

I don;t believe any of this "awkward" stuff. Anakin never spoke like this before, so why should he express himself this way now? This Jim Stienman-esque rubbish just leaps out as being completely unbelievable. No wonder she turned him down at first. GL says he is writing for an older time, King Arthur and all that? Than why does it only appear in such a strained fashion here? Star Wars has always been full of strained and hokey dialogue, but this scene is just way too much. It sticks out like a sore thumb amongst the other romance scenes in Attack of the Clones. It's a real shame, as the setting, mood and lighting og the scene is great. But all of that is ruined by Anakin's speech.

Kam, I think you're bang on - movies are show, not tell. It should come from their behaviour, not always from what they say.

Of course the Han/Leia romance isn't perfect (at least there was a little sub-text in what they said to each other before they kissed, which made it fun to watch and more believeable), but that does not take away from the fact, for me, that these crucial scenes for Anakin and Padme's characters were completely fudged.



All you're confirming to me is that you could not deal with the medieval style romance that was featured in the PT. It seems as if you wanted Anakin and Padme's romance to be modern in style, just like Leia and Han's romance.


And why don't you simply state that you don't like the medieval style romance featured in that scene in AOTC, instead of declaring the scene as awful . . . and expecting the rest of us to accept your words as fact?


On balance, I like the prequels - there are aspects I love and there are aspects I dislike.

I feel the same about the OT. For me, it is no more better or worse than the PT . . . just different in style.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Ya know there are just so many factors to justifying an answer. When you saw it, with whom, your age, personal life, experiences and I could go on.

If you were a young person, then the vocab, actions and decisions made were probably within your scope.

If you were older - in a relationship - then it struck you as something working to hard to be "real."

If you were an old fart:) - maybe it was something you once thought that whole rig-a-ma-roll was all about.

There really isn't a wrong answer...

Well stated Nef, that is a good point.

[Kam Solusar]

All you're confirming to me is that you could not deal with the medieval style romance that was featured in the PT. It seems as if you wanted Anakin and Padme's romance to be modern in style, just like Leia and Han's romance.


And why don't you simply state that you don't like the medieval style romance featured in that scene in AOTC, instead of declaring the scene as awful . . . and expecting the rest of us to accept your words as fact?



That's quite a leap in logic. I didn't like the scene, either. But it had nothing to do with the "medieval" style, which I call in to question in the first place. Especially since I've got no problem with period pieces.

It's just awkward, and in the wrong way.

[RollaFett]

And why don't you simply state that you don't like the medieval style romance featured in that scene in AOTC, instead of declaring the scene as awful . . . and expecting the rest of us to accept your words as fact?






Wow. There you go again, labeling someone's opinion as a fact when it wasn't presented as such. Please tell me, what don't you get about the point of these boards? Nearly everything that is posted on these boards is an opinion, and most everybody here knows that, except it would seem, you.

[Talcy]

All you're confirming to me is that you could not deal with the medieval style romance that was featured in the PT. It seems as if you wanted Anakin and Padme's romance to be modern in style, just like Leia and Han's romance.

I haven't said anything about a "medieval" style romance. What I am saying is that this scene, and the dialogue in particular, jumps out as being terribly written. Where else, if this is your assumption, is there a "medieval" style romance? Yes, there are elements to do with very broad romantic film conventions, but compare that dialogue to the nice little back and forth between Anakin and Padme in the meadow - all the stuff about Palo, dictatorships and making fun of Padme. Those two scenes sit together about as nicely as Bush and Bin Laden. Indeed, what is you own definition of a "medieval" style romance?

As for me wanting the romance to be "modern" in style - I'm afraid you're completely wrong in that assumption. I wanted it to be believeable and sympathetic. Being "medieval" has nothing to do with it. Any "modern" aspects of Han and Leia's courting in Empire have nothing to do with it either (I actually wish people would stop comparing them - it seems sometimes like a tactic to draw away from the obvious flaws of the romance in question). There are plenty of other examples of romance in the movies, medieval or otherwise, that work because the characters are well written and remain true to their traits, dialogue included. It shouldn't come down to dialogue, anyway. Character is revealed through behaviour, not words.

And why don't you simply state that you don't like the medieval style romance featured in that scene in AOTC, instead of declaring the scene as awful . . . and expecting the rest of us to accept your words as fact?

Hold your horses right there, pal. I never ever viewed it as being "medieval", no matter what GL says. I don't listen to what a filmmaker has to say in that context - I simply watch the movie and make my own decisions. GL may have wanted that type of dialogue, but he over-egged those scenes with an entire bloody chicken coup! You seem to be the one making that assumption. My problem is with bad writing. Pure and simple.

And where on earth do I expect people to accept my words as fact? Making assumptions like that about another poster is bad form.

[flo fett]

and you guys like prequels? I would have never ever come to that conclusion.
Liking or even loving something doesn't mean that you have to be blind to it's faults. You can still love them despite these things.

[Tovor]

Liking or even loving something doesn't mean that you have to be blind to it's faults. You can still love them despite these things.
That's quite romantic. Love them despite their faults. This thread is a topic about relationship advice, in disguise. :)

[lovelucas]

hey everybody - we're all we've got......
there has to be an assumption that years after these films came out, if you're still posting in this forum or any other Star Wars forum you must like them more than you dislike them for the faults you perceive.

most of the rest of the world do not understand Star Wars nor its fans - they don't want to be bothered with the intentions, the philosophy, the good vs evil but even deeper than that the redemption aspect, the Joseph Campbell part of it - no one cares but us.....

and you all do care.

[Talcy]

Well, I do and I don't care by that definition. I don't love the bnew movies, but I like 'em. But the whole Campbell, mythology thing, I'm interested in as a filmmaker and scriptwriter, even though I'm pretty cynical about the emphasis placed on those elements, which I believe were rolled out to help get older and more sophisticated audiences interested when Star Wars first came out.

But I certainly don't consider myself a fan who is one of the few, as it were.

[lovelucas]

and The Hero's Journey? and Joseph Campbell saying George was his best student??

[Talcy]

Oh, I have no doubt of that at all. As a screenwriting student, I know the value of Campbell's work and I've read the famous memo Chris Vogler wrote after Star Wars came out which was handed to studio chiefs.

I just wish folks would stop saying that just because GL studied Campbell's work (and many others), that excuses his bouts of bad writing in the newer films.

[Javen]

Anakin and Padme's romance is good for what is was suppose to be. To get them together and have Luke and Leia. It wasn't suppose to be like Han and Lea's not that it was really any better anyway.

I mean it was just as realistic in the way they got together as anyone in real life. Not in dialogue. Just the way they got together.

[nea200pl]

I did like romance in AOTC but the same time I must say some of Anakin's lines were like taken from over the top romantic movie. I guess it should be justified in his case as he was just a kid who fell helplessly in love and does not know how to deal with it properly.
I like how their romance was described in AOTC book and later ones - some things you just can't describe without words.
Overall, it was sweet. Oh well, I guess it's an old romantic in me...:nahnah:

[lovelucas]

http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/journey/ref/summary.html

and there ya go - Lucas / Campbell

and Vogler:
Your book, The Writer's Journey, was inspired by Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces." What drew you to this book?
As a young film student at USC I was on a kind of vision quest, looking for guidance and a unifying system to organize the chaotic world of writing. I knew there had to be some order to it. I had already sensed some of the patterns in myth and movies when a film professor pointed me in the direction of Campbell's book. It was one of those life-changing experiences, hitting me like a bolt of lightning and completely re-organizing my brain. In that same semester the first STAR WARS movie was released, further clobbering me with the possibilities of Campbell's ideas.

[Talcy]

Nonetheless, none of this excuses the way I think the scene was written.

[lovelucas]

and so we shall continue to disagree and respect that each of us has a rigth to our own opinion of romantic love dialogue intentionally written to reflect a different time and place

[RollaFett]

Anakin and Padme's romance is good for what is was suppose to be. To get them together and have Luke and Leia. It wasn't suppose to be like Han and Lea's not that it was really any better anyway.

I mean it was just as realistic in the way they got together as anyone in real life. Not in dialogue. Just the way they got together.

Y'know, just reading that made me think of how me and the future Mrs. Rollafett were about to be led out to a giant arena and tied to stone posts so huge alien creatures could rip us apart...........y'know, real life. :wink:

[Talcy]

Well, Lovelucas, I'll agree to disagree.

But I never ever thought that their romance should be anything like Han and Leia's. Just not what I consider to be rubbish.

C'est la guerre des etoiles.

[Javen]

Y'know, just reading that made me think of how me and the future Mrs. Rollafett were about to be led out to a giant arena and tied to stone posts so huge alien creatures could rip us apart...........y'know, real life. :wink:
That's not what I was talking about. I meant just jumping into love quickly like they did. It happens every day.

[RollaFett]

I know. Just kiddin' around.

[lovelucas]

Talcy -

C'est la guerre des etoiles. Je comprends. It is the war of the stars.
Les mots ne sont pas des déchets. Ils ne peuvent pas te parler mais ils ne font pas un détritus de la guerre des etoiles. nope.
et I've signed up for a French class in l'automne....

[Talcy]

^er, I don't actually speak French. Just mixin' the old "c'est la vie" phrase with what I remember from the european tri-logo figure cards. :D

[Jedi Master Harrison]

When I first saw AOTC I loved it, depsite thinking that some of the love scenes looked awkward (allbeit that there was supposed to be some element of awkwardness in them). Then when I started looking into this further by rewatching scenes in the film, I found more and more flaws with the romance.

Then I read the novel by R. A. Salvatore.

I appreciate that not everyone is interested in reading the novels, but let me tell you, in terms of the romance the book wipes the floor with the film. In the film I cannot understand why Padme falls for Anakin. In the novel, this is explained, satisfactorily well that I no longer question why she did. There was so much more to the love story side of things that, for various reasons did not come across in the film.

Firstly, there is no way, IMO, that the bond Anakin and Padme formed came across as well in the movie. Secondly cut (or maybe missing) scenes (I have not seen these but have read about them), especially of the couple on Naboo and with Padme's family, explain an awful lot. For the sake of 5 minutes of screentime I definitely think that the romance could have been shown in a better light.

In summary, the romance was not that bad in the movie, but not great. The romance in the book is very well written and explained and so I would urge anyone who does not like the romance in the film to read the book and see if this helps them appreciate the romance more. It worked for me. :)

[RollaFett]

^ I couldn't agree more. I read the novel about 2 years ago and that was the one aspect that leaped out at me. Probably because the romance in the film was the one thing that leaped out at as well, but because it was portrayed poorly.
In the book, you really get into Padme's head and even though it still is a tough sell, you can see understand what she was thinking.

[Fish1941]

You know, this argument over Anakin and Padme's romance has been going on for a long time.

There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad. In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion . . . not fact. Despite the number of those who continue to bash it, the Anakin/Padme romance has its legion of fans. Just as the Leia/Han romance has its legion of fans and those who dislike it. Why don't we just leave it at that? Okay?

[Kam Solusar]

Where's the fun in that?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

You know, this argument over Anakin and Padme's romance has been going on for a long time.

There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad. In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion . . . not fact. Despite the number of those who continue to bash it, the Anakin/Padme romance has its legion of fans. Just as the Leia/Han romance has its legion of fans and those who dislike it. Why don't we just leave it at that? Okay?

Because that would defeat the object of a discussion board. :wink: You are correct, it is just a matter if opinion, but I think that some people who have read this thread will now be better informed to make up their own mind as to whether the romance was good or bad, based on the various informative posts that have been made. I for one certainly gained more insight into their romance by looking at it through the eyes of others, things that I perhaps missed. Sometimes if someone is really passionate or dispassionate about something, they can miss things that others with a more open mind may pick up.

[RollaFett]

You know, this argument over Anakin and Padme's romance has been going on for a long time.

There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad. In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion . . . not fact. Despite the number of those who continue to bash it, the Anakin/Padme romance has its legion of fans. Just as the Leia/Han romance has its legion of fans and those who dislike it. Why don't we just leave it at that? Okay?

Fish, if that's how you feel, fine. Nothing at all wrong with that. I have a solution for you, though. Don't read or partake in a discussion you seem to no longer have any interest in.

[lovelucas]

We need Fish here to bring balance to theForce

[Zedekk]

Re: The romance in AOTC: Was it really that bad?

Yes, yes it was. I can truly appreaciate everyone's opinion about and all the various "takes" on this element or that particular-scene-seen-through-this-visor-at-that-time, but In my own opinion (as I may state it here not to bash or harm anyone) is that for the purposes of story-telling and convincing me that these two "kids" fall in love within the context of the material provided (what we see on screen) its not enough. Yes we have the elements there. Its Anakin Skywalker and he makes babies with Padme Amidala, but for it to be convincing I see nothing of the sort. So yes, for me, the romance in AOTC was really that bad.

[Salacious Crumb]

When I first saw AOTC I loved it, depsite thinking that some of the love scenes looked awkward (allbeit that there was supposed to be some element of awkwardness in them). Then when I started looking into this further by rewatching scenes in the film, I found more and more flaws with the romance.

Then I read the novel by R. A. Salvatore.

I appreciate that not everyone is interested in reading the novels, but let me tell you, in terms of the romance the book wipes the floor with the film. In the film I cannot understand why Padme falls for Anakin. In the novel, this is explained, satisfactorily well that I no longer question why she did. There was so much more to the love story side of things that, for various reasons did not come across in the film.

Firstly, there is no way, IMO, that the bond Anakin and Padme formed came across as well in the movie. Secondly cut (or maybe missing) scenes (I have not seen these but have read about them), especially of the couple on Naboo and with Padme's family, explain an awful lot. For the sake of 5 minutes of screentime I definitely think that the romance could have been shown in a better light.

In summary, the romance was not that bad in the movie, but not great. The romance in the book is very well written and explained and so I would urge anyone who does not like the romance in the film to read the book and see if this helps them appreciate the romance more. It worked for me. :)

Heh, it's funny I brought that book hoping it would shed more light on who Sifo Dyas was - I was one of those people who thought there was going to be a whole 'I am your father' twist with this character :like: - but never got round to reading it. I will definitely read it now, as I too never really got how Padme changed from having 'feelings' for Anakin, to being 'in love' with him. Sure there is the obvious, they are both attractive people in terms of looks, but I was hoping for something a bit more cerebral, from Padme, seeing as she was a politician. Although I may have just contradicted myself in believing love is in any way logical - whoops!

When I think about it though, and please don't read this as a bash, but how sad is it, that we as fans need to read a third party, commissioned book, to fill in the gaps in either dialogue or characterisation which really should of been made clear in the films?

Although I am willing to accept, that it could just be my own short-cummings as a person and that I 'just don't get it' :giveup:

I actually quite liked the romance, I especially liked the confession of love from Anakin in the 'refugee ship' and I liked Natalie Portman's expression in the field, just after he says 'I would be much too frightened to tease a Senator', but then we got the 'I wish that I could just wish away my feelings', I thought to myself, if George would just free up some of that budget to a Lawrence Kasdan type character, the prequels would of been great, instead of just good, as I view them now.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

You don't really get to find out much more about Sifo Dyas. I agree that it is disappointing to feel you understand a film more when reading the novelisation. A few more scenes, which needn't have made the film that much longer, some better dialogue, it's not asking much for a film with a large budget. But having said that, it was the prequels that reminded me of how much I love SW adn I suppose made me end up here, so I love 'em, warts and all! :)

[lovelucas]

I will definitely read it now, as I too never really got how Padme changed from having 'feelings' for Anakin, to being 'in love' with him.

I'm thinking of the change in Padme: from the packing scene and the arrival on Naboo, audience with the Queen, where she was very, very much in control of the situation demonstrating that Anakin "would always be that little boy on Tatooine" to her and then contrast that with the scenes at the Lake Retreat: obviously the meadow scene; the dining scene - watch Padme here and her reaction to Anakin's playfulness, etc.; the fireplace scene - yes, that scene where Anakin is anything but transparent and Padme continues to reject and entice at the same time; and finally when Anakin awakes from his nightmare. She has already made a choice, confirmed when she says to Anakin: "I'm coming with you".

[Salacious Crumb]

I'm thinking of the change in Padme: from the packing scene and the arrival on Naboo, audience with the Queen, where she was very, very much in control of the situation demonstrating that Anakin "would always be that little boy on Tatooine" to her and then contrast that with the scenes at the Lake Retreat: obviously the meadow scene; the dining scene - watch Padme here and her reaction to Anakin's playfulness, etc.; the fireplace scene - yes, that scene where Anakin is anything but transparent and Padme continues to reject and entice at the same time; and finally when Anakin awakes from his nightmare. She has already made a choice, confirmed when she says to Anakin: "I'm coming with you".

Ahh, o.k. thanks lovelucas :thumbs-up:

I will have to re-watch that last scene you quote. That balcony scene where he tells Padme that he has to go and save his mother from his 'nightmare visions', never sat right with me.

When Anakin tells Padme about this nightmare, and we have the 'close-up' of Natalie's face, I always thought it was a bit 'expression-less'. I don't mean that to sound rude, I think Natalie Portman is a very fine actress. I suppose if you do look at that scene in the sense that she is 'falling in love with him', it kinda makes sense.

I always looked at it from the point-of-view that she was reacting, only to what he was saying, i.e. he's telling her his mother is in grave danger, and Padme, just looks blankly at him and say's 'I'll go with you'. I was hoping for some kind of anxiety at the end, kinda like she does when Cliegg Lars tells Anakin, to forget about trying to find his mum alive. What you explained does make sense though. Thanks!

[lovelucas]

I agree that Natalie could have revealed more in that reaction but perhaps George wanted Padme to still be wrestling with herself, restraining, if you will, because she knows everything they're doing is not only forbidden by both of their committments (her to the Senate, him to the Jedi Order) but also, with every step aligning them side by side as two people who care for one another. Hate to reference Palpatine here, but she knows, doesn't she? and still she says "I'm going with you"

[Fish1941]

Fish, if that's how you feel, fine. Nothing at all wrong with that. I have a solution for you, though. Don't read or partake in a discussion you seem to no longer have any interest in.


Wow! I didn't realize you would be so touchy about it!:blink:

[BigBadDaddyVader]

It wasn't that bad.Romance is great and a little,in life,goes a long way.

[RollaFett]

Wow! I didn't realize you would be so touchy about it!:blink:

Wow, weeks later, you respond. I just thought you took my advice. ;)
And I don't think I was 'touchy'. I'm simply not a fan of posts that pretty much negate the point of the thread. Why post at all if you honestly don't seem to care about the subject and question why it's being discussed? If you don't like the fact that it's being discussed, ignore it. There are plenty of threads that I have seen and ignored because they simply didn't interest me. Try it sometime.

[lovelucas]

Fish:
There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad. In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion . . . not fact. Despite the number of those who continue to bash it, the Anakin/Padme romance has its legion of fans. Just as the Leia/Han romance has its legion of fans and those who dislike it. Why don't we just leave it at that? Okay?

That, to me, is not indicating disinterest but an attempt to bring both sides together acknowledging that there are two different points of view - therefore there's no need to bash as if that is the only correct response.

[RollaFett]

I disagree. It is showing tremendous disinterest. We all know that there are different views and opinions on the subject, that's why we're here. To discuss it. To simply say "Why don't we just leave it at that?" indicates a disinterest in discussing the subject, because you can sit on the fence and say that about anything. And if so, why bother saying anything at all?

[lovelucas]

He's definitely not sitting on the fence. and only he can really say what his post meant to convey but to me it's a plea to mellow out on the bashing since we're all Star Wars fans.


and not a bad idea at all.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Surely the whole point of a discussion board is that everyone voices their opinions and as long as you can back it up with some half sensible evidence, then what does it matter if disagreements occur?

I mean I'd never heard the phrase 'bash' in this context before joining this board but to me a bash would be 'I think x is crap, I hate it'. Saying 'I dislike x because of y and z which could have been better if.....or......' to me is not a bash, it is someone airing an opinion, which may or may not be valid, hence we all discuss the y and z.

With all due respect, if we just 'left' every discussion 'at that' then there wouldn't be much point to this section of the board. But anyway.......does anyone have any new opinions or insights which may help us determine whether the romance was actually that bad?

[nefertiti]

...way off topic....but what's even more interesting is the interpretation of what he/she says... is so different for each of us....:)

[Zedekk]

yay...


:giveup:







:sleeping:

[RollaFett]

Yes, this is all very much off topic, and I'm partly to blame for that, so I'm sorry.
That said, I'm not done yet.
He's definitely not sitting on the fence. and only he can really say what his post meant to convey but to me it's a plea to mellow out on the bashing since we're all Star Wars fans.


and not a bad idea at all.

Yes, only he can really say what he means. So why doesn't he? Instead, he shows up every once in a blue moon and says something so completely neutral and asks that we stop discussing the subject. If that's how he feels, then why bother posting anything? This is a DISCUSSION board. There are going to be disenting views about various topics, that is the POINT of a discussion board.
If he, or you, wish to start a thread praising the romance in AOTC, then by all means, have at it. Or if you wish to start a thread wondering why people seem to have so many different views on parts of Star Wars, be ny guest. As it stand now, this thread is titled, "The romance in AOTC: Was it really that bad?". Guess what is going to be discussed in such a thread?

Surely the whole point of a discussion board is that everyone voices their opinions and as long as you can back it up with some half sensible evidence, then what does it matter if disagreements occur?

I mean I'd never heard the phrase 'bash' in this context before joining this board but to me a bash would be 'I think x is crap, I hate it'. Saying 'I dislike x because of y and z which could have been better if.....or......' to me is not a bash, it is someone airing an opinion, which may or may not be valid, hence we all discuss the y and z.

With all due respect, if we just 'left' every discussion 'at that' then there wouldn't be much point to this section of the board. But anyway.......does anyone have any new opinions or insights which may help us determine whether the romance was actually that bad?

Amen, brother!

[lovelucas]

why are you so grumpy, especially on a Friday?
perhaps that's what sets things going in a certain direction.

and no matter what the thread is called we are free, based on your definition, to respond, discuss, cite evidence and voice opinions. We are on topic and doing exactly that.

Let it flow.

[RollaFett]

lovelucas, in case you forgot, this is the particular post that has generated the current debate:

You know, this argument over Anakin and Padme's romance has been going on for a long time.

There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad. In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion . . . not fact. Despite the number of those who continue to bash it, the Anakin/Padme romance has its legion of fans. Just as the Leia/Han romance has its legion of fans and those who dislike it. Why don't we just leave it at that? Okay?

Please, if you would, actually read that post.
Now, this is what you just posted:
and no matter what the thread is called we are free, based on your definition, to respond, discuss, cite evidence and voice opinions. We are on topic and doing exactly that.

All Fish did was 'respond'. He didn't discuss, he didn't cite eveidence, and he sure didn't voice an opinion. In fact, he was as far away from all of those things as you possibly could be. And in doing so, he even writes this, "In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion".
No kidding. Proving again, what the point of this board is. And that is to discuss and give opinions on various topics within the SW universe.
As regards to the topic at hand, it's pretty obvious that Fish sees nothing wrong with the romance in AOTC. And that's just fine. In that case, if someone feels that way, then post your view of it. Counter the opposing arguments of yours. That's what we are all here for. Never forget that.

Fish did none of that with his post. He merely wished to end a topic of discussion by saying that "There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad."
Well, we all know that. That's why we are all discussing the subject. We like to discuss it, we want to discuss it, and this board is meant for it be discussed.
My main point is this, why would you bother to join in a discussion at all, if all you're going to post is "There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad."?

Now, was I grouchy? I dunno. I know I was annoyed, and grouchiness may have surfaced. For that, I apoligize. But as a moderator of this site, and more importantly, as a fan, I do know this much, and that is that we are all Star Wars fans, and we love discussing that universe in all it's various forms. Being a fan, however, doesn't mean that you have to love every single aspect of it. Some may find what they perceive as flaws. Others, like you, may not find many flaws, if any at all. There is nothing wrong with either viewpoint. It should not make anyone any less of a fan.

In the end, I leave you all with this...the Force will be with you, always.

[lovelucas]

well, Rolla - I think you know exactly what Fish's opinion is as well as he knows yours.

but all is good.
I'm leaving for C4 tomorrow so I won't make you grouchy for at least a week.:bye:

[RollaFett]

Heh, heh...the day's not done yet. ;)

[JSunday]

I'm way late here, but I never had a problem with it. Stylistically -- yes, the apologist's way out -- it works with the series. Are they as "hot" as Leia/Han? No. But it was written a certain way that's different too. I don't think Anakin and Padme were EVER intended to be as cool and charming as the friskly Leia and the arrogant Solo....bristling in that almost-angry sexual tension. And given the formality of their setting, each one's relative inexperience with such intimacies (not to mention that it was forbidden for him to express such deep attachments), I'm not surprised with how it reads....which is as an almost Shakespearean romance rather than a contemporary one. I think that's Lucas's attempt to convey "a different time and place" from what would become later on. It was a different time...and these WERE very different people in very different circumstances.

Compare how relatively modest people were in the American 1930s, both socially and culturally. You didn't show your ankle, let alone your cleavage. You sought permission to ask a girl out. There were acceptable dos and don't. You were lucky to get a kiss after many, many dates.

Fast forward to the 1950s and 60s when things were looser and the kids more outwardly rebellious. Kids did things in the 60s that just 25-30 years before was appaling. (Even if they still did them...heh).

So why is that any different in THIS universe of Star Wars? Before the rebellion things were more orderly, especially in the circles of politics and dignitaries. You don't go up to Queen Elizabeth and say, "Slap me some skin, beyotch." You say, "It's a pleasure to meet you your Heinous. I'm honored." Context has a lot to do with *TONE* and *TEXTURE.*

We're dealing with a girl groomed to be Queen. Poltics and planetary rule when she should be sewing her oates and exploring natural urges. Then we take a boy who was raised a slave and is freed to join the Jedi Order...which is to say he joined a monestary for all practical purposes. Yeah, that's HOT.

It's no wonder they trip over each other and say these almost naive, gushy things. They're socially retarded for Godsake. They've each been stripped of being children and curious teens...and in the middle of planetary invasions and assasination attempts discover that little tickle down in the trousers for what is likely the first real time for either of them.

They're adults mentally and physically. But they've been denied that social process that we take for granted.

Han, he was a pirate. An outcast. He didn't give two craps about formality or dignity....of manners, courtesy or what's proper. He's a completely different cat than Anakin.

Again, apologetic hogwash to some out there. But I think I "get it" too. Some look only at the words and see no more than "not as good as in Empire." But what's missing in that comparison is the context of settings...the context of the stories, etc. That's not being an apologist. It's understanding the intent.

[Salacious Crumb]

So why is that any different in THIS universe of Star Wars? Before the rebellion things were more orderly, especially in the circles of politics and dignitaries. You don't go up to Queen Elizabeth and say, "Slap me some skin, beyotch." You say, "It's a pleasure to meet you your Heinous. I'm honored." Context has a lot to do with *TONE* and *TEXTURE.*

:rofl::rofl: Thanks J Sunday that gave me a good laugh. Did you mean 'Highness'? I like your term 'heinous' better though - Grossly wicked or reprehensible; abominable! You may be more right then you know :wink:

Seriously though, excellent post I think you are quite right in putting the romance in the PT in context to that of the OT.

Great post. Please post more often :)

[JSunday]

Actually, yes...the "heinous" was on purpose. I'm literally a Han Solo-type myself and have a ton of disdain for the Monarchy and all that nonsense. (Not a Bush fan either, so don't feel attacked).

Nice of you to catch that. ;)

[JSunday]

Yes, it's nice to be back over here. I'd forgotten my password so mostly it's been just to browse.

Kinda went through a bit of a SW-related funk in '06 with no new movie in production, etc. The prequels provided a really fun and almost continuously stimulating time for us fans, didn't it? When it was all over it was a bit depressing...LOL.

So...nice to read these threads again and think about the films after a bit of a break.

[Salacious Crumb]

Actually, yes...the "heinous" was on purpose. I'm literally a Han Solo-type myself and have a ton of disdain for the Monarchy and all that nonsense. (Not a Bush fan either, so don't feel attacked).

Nice of you to catch that.

Heh I like your style then Sir :) I won't ever feel attacked, I like a laugh, maybe a little too much :( You will only offend me if you accuse me of being late for dinner :wink:

Glad your back, as I said, I enjoyed your post, you managed to change my opinion of it. At first I hated it, then I was o.k. with it and I think with your comments and a couple of others I pretty much enjoy it now. How's that for progress :wink:

[JSunday]

I'll expect you on time for supper then...! :bye:

I appreciate you actually being willing to step back and re-look at things. I often post (as Boba Sweat) on the rottentomatoes.com site, which is both wonderful and awful. And over there you read such scathing dismissals based on nothing more than just the dialogue.

Now on one hand I get that. To my ear..and my contemporary ear at that...Leia and Han are great. They're *real* as it gets for that galaxy far away. It's a bit of an infusion of "hey, they're not that different than us" in this crazy, other-worldly type place. It's a trigger for us to identify.

None of that makes the fact that some of the circumstances in the prequels feel colder and more distant...either due to performance or dialogue...or both. But I do believe it was intentionally so. Lucas loves to change his mind about his intentions almost as often as disheartened fans love to drive a skewer through his screenplays (LOL), but I don't think that Lucas just "lost it" somewhere between 1981-82 and 1994 when he began penning Menace. Rather it was a different approach.

Again, how easy to just rewrite Leia as Padme....or Anakin as Han with an evil side. How easy to mute the palate of Naboo and make the vessels battleship grey.

So understanding part of that means opening ones mind to the picture that widens beyond the line, "I hate sand. It's rough and coarse and irritating." The bigger picture is Anakin's and Padme's discomfort and inability to articulate in any relaxed way what they're feeling. That's the question that gets so rarely asked in the middle of hacking up these parts of the prequels...which I'll confess seems pretty gleeful and fun, if you like the smell of blood.

So on one hand, I get the criticisms. On the surface it's true even..! But it's what beneath the obvious that unfortunately often gets ignored.

[lovelucas]

J-Sunday -
where have you been all my life?

[RollaFett]

^ LOL!

JSunday- I gotta say, you did a fantastic job at trying to explain the romance. Plus, even though I had begun to already look at it from that point of view, you really gave me that final "push" to completely change my mind. I completely agree with your theory.
There still is one bone of contention for me, though, and it's why Padme would fall for Anakin at all, especially based on what we see in the film?
Now, in the novel, it's explained quite well, and I bought it. In the film, though, he comes off way too creepy, and that's something that can't really be changed, despite context.
Now, aside from that, like I already said, you're right on JSunday! Good work.

[JSunday]

^ LOL!

JSunday- I gotta say, you did a fantastic job at trying to explain the romance. Plus, even though I had begun to already look at it from that point of view, you really gave me that final "push" to completely change my mind. I completely agree with your theory.
There still is one bone of contention for me, though, and it's why Padme would fall for Anakin at all, especially based on what we see in the film?
Now, in the novel, it's explained quite well, and I bought it. In the film, though, he comes off way too creepy, and that's something that can't really be changed, despite context.
Now, aside from that, like I already said, you're right on JSunday! Good work.

Because he's a mama's boy. Chicks love that. :D

No, I think within the context of the film itself it goes back to Menace. She felt compassion for him as a boy....he did heroic things like knock out the droid control ship (accidentally), etc. And she felt for him. Scenes like him giving her the japor snippett (sp?) and comforting him because he a) was leaving his home...b) leaving his mother enslaved....I think she felt empathy.

Now he was a boy then, so it's a bit on the creepy side to project there. But then in Clones he's "all growed up" and lookin' all 98 Degrees...and lo and behold, he's a protector once again. It's like having an old friend as a child and then still having that closeness once you grow up, but now with benefits. ;)

In regards to the Sandpeople incident, I think while what he did was pretty over the top, let's not forget he was rescuing his mother from her captors/killers. While there's no getting over that look in his eye when he confesses (and that almost sickly smile that briefly accompanies it), she also knows that his actions weren't wholly unjust.

That's just it about Anakin. He's almost always at least partly justified in what he's doing....whether offing Tuskens or whackin' Dooku. It's not until the Jedi purge that he truly crosses a line that he can't return from without a little help from his son.

So what Padme's seeing is mostly justified....and what isn't is fed off pure sadness of his mother's death. We have the hindsight (or is that foresight) to know what he'll become...but in the context of Padme in that moment, that's a one-off thing by all appearances.

[RollaFett]

I understand why she should fall in love with him, but that's the one aspect I simply felt was conveyed very poorly in the romance. To me, while watching that film, he doesn't come off as being sympathetic at all, despite losing his mom. He comes off as a creepy, arrogant, and perhaps psychotic young punk. And when seeing the strength that Padme posesses in TPM and AOTC, it's tough to buy that she would be interested in him.
Now, with that said, remember, I did like how it was portrayed in the novel.

[JSunday]

Well, he is all those things. He's a bit James Dean-ish. But some chicks love that kind too. You'd be amazed at the women in my life (and on the in-law side as well) where you think, "Why are you with that <expletive>?"

I guess more than he shows the cocky he shows her protection...he shows her understanding too. They're both young people in very similar situations...again, had to grow up early. Adult responsibilities as teens. I think she sees something in him that she knows about herself, despite the bravado and swagger.

I think, in so far as how it's shown in the film, the meadow scene is the clincher....(not the bronco-busting flea-riding one either). It's in the way Portman looks at him. That glance at the end anyhow. In a medium where a picture says a thousand words, you can see her LOVE him just by the look on her face.

Now I will give you that Lucas doesn't give us TONS to work with there. It's threading a needle with a microfiber. Technically it's there but -- like most things with George -- it's sparce and requires some attention.

Case in point. I think one of the biggest oversights in the whole saga was omitting the scene between Padme and Anakin at her parent's house...the one where they arrive and others admit they can see the click between them. That validates it for us, if not somewhat slyly.

For a portion of the film not exactly overflowing with convinceability, that scene would've helped out tremendously.

Take out the flea-wrangling bit and insert this scene to account for the time spent and it's a more convincing look.

[RollaFett]

It sure would have. I don't understand Lucas's editing choices sometimes. All the while he's making this PT, we get these completely too long LOTR films, but he steadfastly refuses to go anywhere near a 3 hour running time. A little frustrating at times, because he doesn't need to go that long anyway. Just a couple of extra scenes, here and there. Oh well, I still like the films anyway.

[JSunday]

Yes, I'm frustrated with you there. It's weird the stupid stuff he's anal about. He's obsessed with the clock and is, seemingly, willing to sacrifice meat for seconds. You're right...you put that scene in anyhow...what's that, four more minutes? You still haven't even hit 2.5 hours yet.

I think that's why I'm glad Copolla and some others got a chance to preview Sith and comment on it beforehand.

For instance, one of my favorite (!!) scenes in the entire saga is the wordless stare across Coruscant. Left to his own druthers, that's a useless and minute-gobbling scene to Lucas I'm willing to bet. (I know it wasn't even scripted to begin with). But without any consultation, that scene isn't in there. It completely says EVERYTHING.

I know some people joke that it's good because there isn't any dialogue (heh)....but between the true acting that's done there by way of expression (has Portman ever looked more heartsick) and John Williams' score, it's absolutely convincing.

If Clones could've benefitted in the romance department, it would be to have more scenes handled that way.

But then again I think this is just part of why Sith is easily the best of the prequels, although I truly love all three of them.

[RollaFett]

Not just not-scripted, but not even originally filmed! It was shot during pickups, as well as Mace confronting Palpatine. They were tied together really because originally Anakin was at Palpatine's side when Mace came in. But apparently, Lucas decided that his turn would seem to quick and easy, so he added the stare across the city and Anakin coming to save Palpatine and make his fateful choice.

[JSunday]

Well that was wise then. LOL. :D

That stare scene seems so unlike Lucas's style. I'm glad it's in there.

[lovelucas]

Hey - it's simple - Anakin / Hayden is hot. Well, shut my mouth - I can not do a Hilton.

The cut scenes on Naboo added much to the bloom, and also let's us see that Padme has a family, one that is reminding her she is losing her personal life to public service etc etc. She's already acting coy etc, denying to her sister that Anakin is anything personal, but blushing as she does so...

The scene in her bedroom where she sadly relates the story of the critters in the hologram dying because they couldn't adapt to change......something she will be unable to do later.

and by the time they picnic, their dialogue indicates the beginning reciprocation by Padme to Anakin's already self-professed love. When Anakin playfully fakes an injury she reacts as a loved one would.

It's always worked for me....no surprise there.

[Fish1941]

All Fish did was 'respond'. He didn't discuss, he didn't cite eveidence, and he sure didn't voice an opinion. In fact, he was as far away from all of those things as you possibly could be. And in doing so, he even writes this, "In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion".
No kidding. Proving again, what the point of this board is. And that is to discuss and give opinions on various topics within the SW universe.
As regards to the topic at hand, it's pretty obvious that Fish sees nothing wrong with the romance in AOTC. And that's just fine. In that case, if someone feels that way, then post your view of it. Counter the opposing arguments of yours. That's what we are all here for. Never forget that.

Fish did none of that with his post. He merely wished to end a topic of discussion by saying that "There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad."
Well, we all know that. That's why we are all discussing the subject. We like to discuss it, we want to discuss it, and this board is meant for it be discussed.
My main point is this, why would you bother to join in a discussion at all, if all you're going to post is "There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad."?


One, I'm a woman, not a man.

Two, you seem to be assuming that I wanted to end the conversation. Do yourself a favor. Do not make assumptions about my views or intent. I find it annoying.

Three, I was not trying to end the discussion. I was posting my feelings on the matter. Not only was I expressing my own feelings about the Anakin/Padme relationship, I was also expressing my belief that the whole matter is nothing more than a matter of opinion . . . or the fact that there is no clear cut answer on the subject.

Don't you ever make an assumption about me or my views again.:mad:

[lovelucas]

Hey Fish! They thought I wore a jock strap too.

and back to the topic at hand: I've been in connection with my Star Wars tour guide since I returned from Lake Como / Naboo in May of 2006. We were on a campaign to try to save the picnic/meadow site since it was sold to developers and was scheduled for destruction. This week the good/bad news - yes part of it is being destroyed for "progress" (i.e. - more hovels for tourists) but the relevant SW precise locations will survive! and why, you say, am I posting this here? Because the romance worked for so many people, the picnic site is turning into a pilgrimage. Giglila (said tour guide) said she's never been busier. She thought with the passage of time since the release of RotS that she would not be contacted at all or certainly less frequently. I'd say people aren't going there for the.....grass.

[although I did bring home some physical memories in that form - blades of grass, bark from THE tree]

and lawd - it's been SEVEN YEARS since they filmed at Lake Como.
gadzooks.

[RollaFett]

One, I'm a woman, not a man.

Two, you seem to be assuming that I wanted to end the conversation. Do yourself a favor. Do not make assumptions about my views or intent. I find it annoying.

Three, I was not trying to end the discussion. I was posting my feelings on the matter. Not only was I expressing my own feelings about the Anakin/Padme relationship, I was also expressing my belief that the whole matter is nothing more than a matter of opinion . . . or the fact that there is no clear cut answer on the subject.

Don't you ever make an assumption about me or my views again.:mad:

My sincere apologies, I had no idea that you were a woman.

With that said, I stand by all of my previous comments 100%. Again, I shall use your own words for evidence.
There is no clear cut answer on whether their romance was good or bad.

You said that. Now, because making assumptions obviosly upsets you, please explain how that statement is designed to move the discussion along further?
While you're at it, also please explain how you expressed your feelings on the subject with that neutral remark that absolutely says nothing?

[lovelucas]

perhaps she was trying diplomacy.....

keeping us open to others' opinions.

a fresh start, perhaps.

an no, it wasn't bad at all. I like the evolution of the romance - even as it began as sympathy for the child Anakin by the older Padme.

[nefertiti]

I'm still in the..."It did what it was supposed to do" stage. You've got to admit that parts of it are nonsense. Really, what always jumps out at me is the lack of contractions - in the ...what are we calling it :scratchchin: - the living room... neither one of them uses one. And I can't get away from thinking of them as children, because of the language. All on purpose...but doesn't it assist in appealing to a wide range of different people...in different ways. The body language was good. They were both uncomfortable (in that scene) as they should have been. If I call that the courtship that leads them to marriage, I'm just feeling a little left out. A part of love is passion and I didn't get that from them. Certainly not in EP 2 and they were much to caught up in events in EP 3. No, not throw down do the deed...but something. Ya know?:innocent:

[lovelucas]

courtly love = courtly dialogue -
can not will not = no contractions
no problem with George's intentions (and it is intentional summoning 17th century England) - but it doesn't match the dialogue style of the rest of the film and that does make it glaring.

Personal opinion here: George needs a hug.

[Zedekk]

^ George needs a *Vader-Slap* (but that's just my opinion):zap:

[nefertiti]

courtly love = courtly dialogue -
can not will not = no contractions
no problem with George's intentions (and it is intentional summoning 17th century England) - but it doesn't match the dialogue style of the rest of the film and that does make it glaring.

Personal opinion here: George needs a hug.

Yes, I took those ideas into consideration and accept and agree that for "courtly" love they were applicable. I also agree that their speech didn't mesh with the rest of the film. So...we agree! Whew...I always get antsy when I think there will be serious argument...

But also this is a "love affair" that compels two upright, law-abiding individuals to break important rules. (we don't know about Anakin's ties to Sids as of yet).... And because of the seriousness of their actions... I don't feel that kind of passion. Sure, coming to the brink of death makes you see everything clearly. And jumping around in the film doesn't help to solidify it. Then when we jump into EP 3...while their greeting after such a long period of time was recognizable...there is already that lack of trust. His questioning her isn't concern (IMO) but doubt. Was it about her? I don't know.

EP 2...for what they were; the timeframe; the situation...the courtly love was sweet. But to do what they did...that needed more passion.

[luke]

out of curiosity how much was the age difference between Anakin and Padme? in TPM she seemed much older, by like the fact that she was queen when he was 9!

[RollaFett]

She was 14 in TPM, while Anakin was 9. So there is a 5 year gap.
And if that seems extremely young to be a Queen, well, it is. One of the films that heavily influenced Lucas while developing the original Star Wars was "The Hidden Fortress" by Akira Kurosawa in which a central character was a teenage princess. I guess Lucas didn't think he went young enough with Leia in ANH.

[Raganork8]

I think we can judge if the romance in AOTC was bad or not by looking at ROTS.

Did you feel bad when Padme was choked or when she died?

Then the romance wasn't that bad because you felt thier connection was there and thats what makes it tragic.

There's not a lot between Padme & Anakin in ROTS continung with the love thing, so In ROTS we're convinced they're in love because of what we saw in the previous movie.

so if it was "bad" it did it's job.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

so if it was "bad" it did it's job.

A good way to sum it up, IMO.

[Raganork8]

Thanks...

i also want to add that it's being "bad" could have very well have been intentional. Nothing annoys me more than an overaffectionate couple; but, I don't ever doubt that they love one another and later on the overaffectionate nonsense allows for anakin's transformation to be all the more believeable.

Listen If anakin was a Badass from Day 1 Darth Vader wouldn't be as cool so that's why I brush off anyone who says anakin was too stupid in AOTC, had he not been Vader would have seemed like no difference.

So If Anakin was a mature and understanding normal loving person in AOTC his newly found maturity in ROTS would have been greatly compromised and we would have felt less for them and been subjugated to a movie with no character development.

IMO:wink:

[nefertiti]

Well thank goodness I've never said Anakin was stupid. I also feel that the characterization of Anakin from day 1 was excellent. Conflicted, trying to do the right thing...all worked towards the birth of that (still in the Top Ten bad guy poll) monster, Vader.

I can honestly say that the word maturity could not be used to describe Anakin at any point in the PT.

Overly affectionate? Are those the people making out on the street that we often think to ourselves..."Get a room!" I'm with you on that. When I made my remarks, I wasn't looking for a grope fest or even doing the dirty on the deck.

In EP 2, I smile when Anakin remeets Pad again. Gawky, teen boy meets girl of his dreams. Happend 100 years ago, happens today. The picnic is also sweet - relationship wise. Tentative looks. The teasing-flirty talk. Beautiful setting, beautiful people. The evening (living room) becomes adultish in that they finally acknowledge this - feeling. He is in anguish. She is the diplomate.

For me, this could be classified as a passionate scene, but I did get stumped on the lack of contractions. Yes, courtly love. If a couple of thee and thou popped up, it would have been appropriate. But this scene has both elements - for me. The darkness of the room, Pad's ensemble, the fire - designed to make me feel one way, while the language forces me to thnk another way.

The arena...yep, you're gonna die. You tell all your secrets. No problems with that one. Chasing Dooku. While the three are still together, have you noticed the looks on the other characters faces. Sometimes, it is not so pleasant. Pad falls. Anakin lays it out. Funny Obi-1 still doesn't get it...

The wedding. Ok...this is a big step. How did they get there? I don't need thing played out in detail. I've got a good imagination and I use it. But this was a big jump, with nothing to back it up for me. Is there something on the cutting room floor that - in the 14th release will appear to give me that "Oh, ok..." feeling? That's all. For who they were in AotC and the situation, they were ok. More often than not, I could remember that insecurity and hope and failure. And smile. It's just my feeling.

[lovelucas]

Wasn't there a scene - I think it was between Obi Wan and Mace - discussing the outcome with Yoda - right before Yoda corrects Obi Wan, with "Victory? Victory, you say? Master Obi Wan.....not victory - Begun the Clone War/s has/have" - Obi Wan relays something to the effect that Anakin is accompanying Padme back to Naboo -

Loved the end of this film - actually all the endings of all the SW films are really powerful.....for me.

[RollaFett]

^ Not to speak for Nef, but I think she was questioning how marriage would have happend so quickly in the relationship timeline. Not so much how they actually go to Naboo together.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I guess when you have just nearly died then perhaps you may 'dive into' things and make the most of whatever time you have. I imagine a few couples may have got married quick at the start of the Clone Wars, not knowing what was around the corner for any of them.

[nefertiti]

Thanks, Rolla...yes.

Yes JMH and lovelucas...and I get all the classic love stories that end badly. I know we often saying in discussing, if only.. and maybe that's where I am. The romance, as I said long ago, can be seen in so many ways. Our own experiences gage how we see it. What Anakin does to save Pad is from one point of view - passionate. His determination and drive is so focused - he can not be moved from that path. That degree of passion for me wasn't obvious in EP 2. I believe if I think about it, I was suprised about the wedding at the end. It seemed a big jump. With no...lead in. But it's all good. Thanks guys!

[Master Magnus]

Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman was voted as having the least plausible on-screen chemistry (specifically for AOTC) according to BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6953790.stm). I can't say that it was very fair as I think there were at least two scenes when I thought they worked pretty well together (the 'I love you' confession scene and during the battle).

[Jedi Master Harrison]

That doesn't surprise me really. Worst ever may be a bit harsh, but there was certainly a distinct lack of believable chemistry IMHO. If only it had been like the book! *Sigh* I'm more surprised that Kidman and Cruise were on that list, I thought they had a very interesting relationship in that film, though the film was not great.

[lovelucas]

and that same poll had Kate Winslet and Leo DiCaprio as one of the worst for "Titanic" - also Kiera and Orlando for POTC -

so -

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Personally I found both of those couples awful too, but maybe that was more to do with the films they were in, neither of which impressed me much. Maybe I expect too much. :lol:

[RollaFett]

Keira and Orlando for POTC? Yeah, I'm onboard with that.

[Fish1941]

I wondered who would bring up that dumb ass poll. As if I'm supposed to accept this as fact. Bulls**t!

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Of course I have no idea how many people answered the poll, but I think it seems to be a reasonable reflction of some of the opinions discussed in here. :scratchchin:

[Fish1941]

Of course I have no idea how many people answered the poll, but I think it seems to be a reasonable reflction of some of the opinions discussed in here. :scratchchin:

"SOME" is the word. Not all. And if Anakin and Padme were that unpopular as a couple, then the amount of fan websites based upon their relationship should be close to zero. However . . . that doesn't seem to be the case. Which leads me to believe that this poll was still a load of bulls**t.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Well presumably the poll reflects the results of the people questioned, so it cannot be a load of BS. Of course, if you mean is it a fair representation of views of an appropriate sample of movie-watchers, then I'd agree that it could be biased dependent on that sample, which we don't have any information on.

[Fish1941]

Well presumably the poll reflects the results of the people questioned, so it cannot be a load of BS. Of course, if you mean is it a fair representation of views of an appropriate sample of movie-watchers, then I'd agree that it could be biased dependent on that sample, which we don't have any information on.


I wonder . . . exactly how many people were questioned? This is why I don't take polls seriously. And I cannot help but wonder why certain people use them to justify their own opinions.

As for the pairing from POTC being one of the worst in film history, I also think its a load of bull, considering the amount of fans for that particular romance. I'm sure there are those who would agree. But there are many fans who would not agree . . . including myself.

[RollaFett]

Yes, you like the romance, as do many others. That said, many others also dislike the romance.
Whether or not you agree with their opinion should be irrelevant in regards to the accuracy of the poll. Don't close your eyes to differing opinions and thoughts, Fish, for that is how we grow.

[Fish1941]

Yes, you like the romance, as do many others. That said, many others also dislike the romance.
Whether or not you agree with their opinion should be irrelevant in regards to the accuracy of the poll. Don't close your eyes to differing opinions and thoughts, Fish, for that is how we grow.


Rolla, I have already expressed my disagreement with the poll just as you and some others have expressed that you agree with the poll. I believe we are all allowed to do so. For some reason, you seem to have this attitude that I'm not allowed to disagree with a poll that agrees with your opinion. So do me a favor and please spare me your crappy little lectures about closing my eyes to differing opinions. I sure as hell do not need to be lectured by the likes of you.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Surely the poll just reflects the opinions of those asked. So although it may not agree to your opinion, this does not necessarily mean the results are flawed. For example, my opinion may be that the liberals are the best political party in the UK, and 20% of people may agree, but the other 80% support labour and conservative. Although the poll does not agree with my opinion, the poll is not flawed - and you can guarantee at any election that labour or the tories will win, proving the poll is correct. This does not invalidate my opinion, but it simply shows that my opinion is not one that the majority hold.

[lovelucas]

Polls are hugely influenced by the intentions of the poller..... a large number of randomly selected opinions would be somewhat valid but this poll is certainly not scientific.

If you get a chance to read Jonathon's Bowen's followup book to "Anticipation", "Revenge" he notes that he was rejected by more than one publishing house because it was their non-fan, non-SW-educated opinion that no one liked the prequels, or so they heard.

and this poll is as ignorant as those publishers were

[Jedi Master Harrison]

and this poll is as ignorant as those publishers were

The proof of it being? That 2 people here don't agree with its conclusion?

Maybe we should start a poll here amongst 'educated SW fans'? :scratchchin:

[Zedekk]

hey let's not and say we did. as for the actual topic in this thread, I've already posted my thoughts feelings and opinions so I will not reiterate.

[Raganork8]

I just got through Watching AOTC and I'm gonna say that the acting wasn't really bad at all.

The only problem i have with this movie and acting is the first half hour is a bit rough.

Two things in particular

When Yoda says he's happy to see padme alive she responds with wanting to know who killed her and her tone seems not to have heard Yoda.

Same thing with anakin and Jar Jar after Anakin Confesses to Jar Jar that he feels Padme doesn't remember him. Jar Jar says something like: It's good to see you and Anakin just seems to ignore that and goes onto "She doesn't remember me"


Just that, Aside from that the acting wasn't as bad as some of the writing at some points.

[nefertiti]

No, it wasn't. It accomplished what it set out to do. Show the beginning of the downfall of Anakin. I don't know about you, but after the Tusken thing, I was convinced. Christensen's not a bad actor; neither is Portman. She has more credit in her craft, but with experience he could be a fine actor.

That said, I guess we go back to the dialogue and possibly the blocking of the few "romantic" scenes in the film. Rollo and JMH easily pointed out that my own feelings were not clear...yes, for what I saw in the film...where it went within the film...it was a bit off kilter. The overly formal language - when put into the context of "courtly" - works ...except for those contracts. I know, Nef and her foibles. Other than that, it worked.

[Zedekk]

After reading the above two posts, I started thinking about the fact that I don't feel that the build up of anticipation was as great as it could have been (IMO). And that is why as Raganork8 states, the start is a bit "rough" the story for me doesn't place the elements of the actual romantic relationship into an easy flow of, yes these two could could fall in love. And as I've stated before, this in my opinion, is not convincing in as far as the relationship and romance thereof is concerned.

[Fish1941]

I just got through Watching AOTC and I'm gonna say that the acting wasn't really bad at all.

The only problem i have with this movie and acting is the first half hour is a bit rough.



Bad acting moments are not knew in the STAR WARS movies. In fact, they are not new in the LOTR Trilogy. I've seen plenty of bad acting moments in the OT to make me wonder why fans are raising such a fuss over the bad acting moments in the PT. An excuse to bash the later trilogy, while ignoring the flaws of the first trilogy? I wonder.


After reading the above two posts, I started thinking about the fact that I don't feel that the build up of anticipation was as great as it could have been (IMO). And that is why as Raganork8 states, the start is a bit "rough" the story for me doesn't place the elements of the actual romantic relationship into an easy flow of, yes these two could could fall in love. And as I've stated before, this in my opinion, is not convincing in as far as the relationship and romance thereof is concerned.


Are you one of those who wanted the Anakin/Padme romance to be a replica of the Leia/Han romance? Because I don't understand your complaints.

[Zedekk]

Are you one of those who wanted the Anakin/Padme romance to be a replica of the Leia/Han romance? Because I don't understand your complaints.
No, far from it. I've posted before how I feel about the romance and how I see it as not being convincing enough to me, that the two lovers in question fall in love. Due to the lack of chemistry, no build up of anticipation, and not too flattering dialog. And it's fine that you don't understand my complaints, because I don't understand yours.

[RollaFett]

Rolla, I have already expressed my disagreement with the poll just as you and some others have expressed that you agree with the poll. I believe we are all allowed to do so. For some reason, you seem to have this attitude that I'm not allowed to disagree with a poll that agrees with your opinion. So do me a favor and please spare me your crappy little lectures about closing my eyes to differing opinions. I sure as hell do not need to be lectured by the likes of you.

Glad to see you keeping your emotions in check. Especially when I was so uncivil and mean to you. Oh wait, I wasn't either of those things.

[lovelucas]

We're eating our young again.....


I'd like to know.....where the poll originated (yes, I know it was England but I want to know specifically who was behind it and what were the options) and exactly who was chosen to participate and what's their SW I.Q.

[RollaFett]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6953790.stm

Link to the article, which contains some of the poll info. It says "Pearl and Dean" conducted the poll of 3,000 people.
I googled "pearl and dean", and got this:
http://www.pearlanddean.com/

[Master Magnus]

Not exactly, the article makes clear that the poll wasn't conducted by Pearl and Dean, but for. One has to take things for what they are. A poll of this kind can never be all inclusive and the risk of coverage bias is larger when only a specific group of respondents are polled.

[RollaFett]

Oops, was going by memory when I said they conducted it. My bad.

[Master Magnus]

I watched AOTC today and I think the romance would've worked better if two scenes had changed places in editing, namely the "Stolen Kiss" scene and the "Meadow Picnic" scene (or what to call them) as the latter scene shows the bonding between Anakin and Padmé and wouldn't make that first kiss that awkward.