Darth Vader: Champion, Hero, Friend?

[Tovor]

I've been thinking about Darth Vader, and about Anakin Skywalker. Here are some of the things that I have pondered:

Anakin Skywalker was a hero in the Clone Wars. Although I don't like when others use EU to discuss the films, and some even have considered the novelizations themselves to be EU because they are elaborated by the authors and not by Lucas himself, I bring forth that in the ROTS novelization Anakin, as well as Obi-Wan, was a hero of the Clone Wars in the eyes of the people of the galaxy. The first chapter described how the people admired them as heroes and knew that when all was dire and they showed up, there was hope to win a battle or to save a kidnapped chancellor, ect. Children played games pretending they were the heroes Anakin and Obi-Wan because they were to children, essentially near super-heroes. Adults as well put great faith and admiration in them both, but mainly Anakin if I remember correctly.

Point being:
Although Palpatine portrayed the Jedi as sudden villains to the senate and the Republic, enemies of state, why didn't he capitalize on the public's adoration for Anakin as a hero of the Republic, and portray him as the lone Jedi who stayed loyal to him, loyal to the Republic to instill greater public acceptance of the New Order? In other words, "In these dire times when the Jedi have tried to take over and kill me, one knight has remained loyal and heroic. Thus the hero of the Clone Wars, Anakin Skywalker, is the continued hero of the New Order; so you shall not have cause to worry."

Of course, it was far from true, because as the ANH novel stated in the intro, the people's cries for justice did not reach his ears. But nevertheless, I wonder why he did not capitalize on the public's love and trust of Anakin by fooling them into thinking they still had their "superhero" fighting for justice and security, ect? Most leaders through history, and through the history of drama, have championed a hero in the eyes of the people as being at their side, to help capture their trust and acceptance. Sith tradition to take on a Sith name, and to symbolize that the Jedi side of him was dead, makes sense, but I still wonder why he didn't capitalize on Anakin's heroic status down the road.
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Another thing I wonder about is the true nature of Vader's injuries that caused him to require an iron lung in order to live. His burns were not that bad; I have seen real life stories of burn victims with much more severe burns all over their bodies, that did not require a ventilator to be able to breath. I have heard of burn victims, or of people dying in extremely hot flash-fire scenarios where the insides of their lungs were burned so bad from breathing the hot vapors that they died instantly, because their lungs could not operate anymore. But that was not the case with Anakin. He was certainly breathing on his own after his immolation, and for quite some time before he was given imperial life support.

So my question is: Did he really need the suit's ventilator to survive, or was it a further trick by Sidious to ensure Vader knew he had no way out, no return, from his condition? In the film he appeared to be put into the suit with the burns still fresh, not even healed by bacta or skin grafted. I don't see how in that galaxy with the technology they had, artificial lungs could not have been surgically implanted, and skin grafts would not have been done to fully replace his burned flesh. And so, this stresses even further to me that Vader was played the fool by the puppet master, who kept him from having a life outside of the suit, or of knowing that treatment existed for his condition. He had already been fooled into believing that he could not have saved his wife without the dark side; that the Jedi order was a failure prior to the purge; and then that he could not return to the good side, that there was no return from the life of Darth Vader. And so I believe that the suit was a further trick and "proof" of his need for alliegience to Sidious, to the Sith, and to the dark side. I am even saying that at the time of his injuries he did not need the suit, but that during the reconstruction and "rebirth" of Vader, that things were done that cut off the lung's power to operate on their own without the suit. Hence another reason why Vader knew later that he could not disobey his master; because without the Sith and the suit the Sith had provided, he would lose the power to live that the Sith suit enabled for him.
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And lastly for now, but not last of my evolving questions, what sort of life did Vader have? Did he have a social life? Friends? Activities? Rewards? It is true that Tarkin referred to him as a friend, though that may have been a general non-sentimental statement ("You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.") with no real emotional significance.

We know he lost his beloved wife, and his children (or child, the only one he knew about) which were the hope of his future, so perhaps all rewards in life were cold to him; and only the lie of the reward of service to Sidious and power gained were what kept him going. But did he have a social life among the rich and powerful of the imperial elite, a social status among the powerful and the jetsetters that I'm sure Sidious enjoyed? Did he go to operas and other entertainment such as Palpatine enjoyed in ROTS? Or did he spend his entire life in military service, Sith meditation, and isolation?

[melissa_ladyvader]

anakin skywalker/darth vader is everything.

a champion, a hero, a good-looking jedi knight/sith lord

father of the twins luke and leia, secret lover of padme.

brother/friend of obiwan...ruler of the dark-side.....etc

you name it.....hes the real deal.

[Tovor]

That is completely irrelevant and off topic. That is fangirl gushing, not the answer to the questions I posed. However, Sidious would have hired you in a heartbeat to write PR propeganda for his boy Vader.

But that too is off topic and not the purpose of this thread.

[melissa_ladyvader]

lol...why would palptine hire me for?...lol

rightt........but its true though...besides ur point in this thread

[Tovor]

Righto. Now, let us stay on topic and topic only, shall we? :offtopic:

[melissa_ladyvader]

relax man

[Kam Solusar]

For starters, I believe Palpatine had enough of a grip on the galaxy to not bother with that. So, the desire to immerse him in the ways of the Sith over rode any other notions, I would think. It is an interesting question.

As for the damage to Anakin, I always sort of assumed Anakin's will (and connection to the Force) sustained him until Palpy showed up, and then the medical capsule kept him alive until they got back to Coruscant. Perhaps by that time, the walking isolation suit/iron lung was the only way to keep him going if he was going to be ambulatory.

[melissa_ladyvader]

i also think chancellor palpatine is anakin's father.

[wedge]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sarah-Leia]

So my question is: Did he really need the suit's ventilator to survive, or was it a further trick by Sidious to ensure Vader knew he had no way out, no return, from his condition? In the film he appeared to be put into the suit with the burns still fresh, not even healed by bacta or skin grafted. I don't see how in that galaxy with the technology they had, artificial lungs could not have been surgically implanted, and skin grafts would not have been done to fully replace his burned flesh. And so, this stresses even further to me that Vader was played the fool by the puppet master, who kept him from having a life outside of the suit, or of knowing that treatment existed for his condition. He had already been fooled into believing that he could not have saved his wife without the dark side; that the Jedi order was a failure prior to the purge; and then that he could not return to the good side, that there was no return from the life of Darth Vader. And so I believe that the suit was a further trick and "proof" of his need for alliegience to Sidious, to the Sith, and to the dark side. I am even saying that at the time of his injuries he did not need the suit, but that during the reconstruction and "rebirth" of Vader, that things were done that cut off the lung's power to operate on their own without the suit. Hence another reason why Vader knew later that he could not disobey his master; because without the Sith and the suit the Sith had provided, he would lose the power to live that the Sith suit enabled for him.

I must say that I never really considered this matter but I completely agree with you. What else can I say? I am SURE that in the time of cloning, perfectly good prosthetics (Luke's hand) and flying taxis that horrific burns would be able to be treated and perhaps even fully cured without going to the extent that Sidious went to for Vader.

And lastly for now, but not last of my evolving questions, what sort of life did Vader have? Did he have a social life? Friends? Activities? Rewards? It is true that Tarkin referred to him as a friend, though that may have been a general non-sentimental statement ("You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.") with no real emotional significance.

I do believe that it was a non-sentimental statement. Tarkin did not like Vader. Tarkin did not like ANYBODY (except Daala, of course :like: ). Being an Imperial, I am sure that he looked down upon the ways of the Jedi. Oh...I don't know.

We know he lost his beloved wife, and his children (or child, the only one he knew about) which were the hope of his future, so perhaps all rewards in life were cold to him; and only the lie of the reward of service to Sidious and power gained were what kept him going. But did he have a social life among the rich and powerful of the imperial elite, a social status among the powerful and the jetsetters that I'm sure Sidious enjoyed? Did he go to operas and other entertainment such as Palpatine enjoyed in ROTS? Or did he spend his entire life in military service, Sith meditation, and isolation?

Lol, I can't imagine it. The way he comes across in the films is very military, not at all decadent or pampered as Sidious seems to be. I am sure that he did not have the social status of the Imperial what are they...the old guys...Sim Aloo...oh yes, Dignitaries because the guards will often not let him into Palpy's chamber. :scratchchin: Indicating perhaps that they are not on such close terms as to be hopping in and out, in and out of each other's chambers, throne rooms, whatever. Well, actually, Sidious can go anywhere at any time he wants to without fear of authority but not so much the other way around. Towards the time of the Original Trilogy, Vader hated Sidious with such an intense hatred, gosh, probably more intense than my hatred for a person in my life that all he wanted to do was kill him. All the more reason, I think, to spend the days "meditating"...ie plotting.

[nefertiti]

I've often wondered about the validity of the suit. We see a technology far beyond what we can do now...and it's my opinion that vent patients - if able - are removed from that baggage as soon as possible. But SW medicine is almost magical to us...so if regeneration wasn't possible and I think I'm looking for the word "bacta"... A wonderous substance that seems a SW cure all. In EP 5 we see Luke in a bacta tank and his hand "fixed"...but then I wonder if perhaps that period of time there were medical leaps and bounds...but no. I think the medical side of SW remains constant...

I would have to say that Sids used the suit to chain Vader to him. If their relationship was that of mentor/student or even father/son, then Anakin would have felt grateful to him for saving his life...that is until he found out that it was a prison.... Not a big EU person myself, I too wonder about Vader's life in the suit? When he wasn't out destroying worlds...did he dream? Did he feel sadness. Was he as empty a shell as I have come to think of him?

Ooops...I'm rambling...good questions, Tov...

[RollaFett]

So my question is: Did he really need the suit's ventilator to survive, or was it a further trick by Sidious to ensure Vader knew he had no way out, no return, from his condition?

Like others have said, I would side with the latter. I have to think that technology would've been good enough to fix him up, but it winds up being a perfect way for Sidious to maintain control.
Another point you made though always bugged me too. They start working on him right away and don't even get rid of the burnt and torn up clothes he was wearing. He's a filthy and charred mess when they put that suit on him!

but I still wonder why he didn't capitalize on Anakin's heroic status down the road.


Hmmm...I forgot about that part of the book. Anakin certainly was highly touted as a hero for the Republic, wasn't he? It raises another question, what are the people told of Anakin's fate? Obviously, the Jedi are looked upon as traitors after Palpatine's Empire speech, and are assumed to be dead after some time. Is Anakin among that 'assumed dead' group? He must be because Luke sure thought he was dead. How many people knew that he was actually Vader, if anyone at all? Just Yoda and OB1?
So, if he's assumed dead, then the Emperor can't prop him up as a hero to the Empire.

And lastly for now, but not last of my evolving questions, what sort of life did Vader have?

Good question. Is his only relaxation time spent in the chamber we see in ESB? Maybe he's got a playstation or something in that thing, or a computer where he does a lot of IMing? :wink:
Seriously though, I feel as though he splits all his time between wallowing in his misery/waiting for the right opportunity to overthrow Sidious and concentrating on his duties as a military leader.

[Kam Solusar]

Another point you made though always bugged me too. They start working on him right away and don't even get rid of the burnt and torn up clothes he was wearing. He's a filthy and charred mess when they put that suit on him!



Look closer, especially at the part where he's screaming and knocks a droid away from him as it's trying to work. There are droids picking things off him, like clothing and loose flesh. In fact, I inferred that is why he screams, because that's gotta hurt. I think not sedating him while that was going on was more an insidious act (get it?) than the suit. From the novelization, he needs the suit, there's not much left. Though, in the novel, he needs the digital voice because he can barely speak more than a whisper, and he yells pretty loudly when getting worked on, so obviously there are differences.

[Darth Zan Maka]

And lastly for now, but not last of my evolving questions, what sort of life did Vader have?

We know he lost his beloved wife, and his children (or child, the only one he knew about) which were the hope of his future, so perhaps all rewards in life were cold to him; and only the lie of the reward of service to Sidious and power gained were what kept him going. But did he have a social life among the rich and powerful of the imperial elite, a social status among the powerful and the jetsetters that I'm sure Sidious enjoyed? Did he go to operas and other entertainment such as Palpatine enjoyed in ROTS? Or did he spend his entire life in military service, Sith meditation, and isolation?

I am 100% sure that last words is the the best answer itself. You answered your own question as good as it possible. I'd say his life has no other sense for him, he was burnt out in all ways possible.

[Mothman]

.....And lastly for now, but not last of my evolving questions, what sort of life did Vader have? Did he have a social life? Friends? Activities? Rewards? It is true that Tarkin referred to him as a friend, though that may have been a general non-sentimental statement ("You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.") with no real emotional significance.

We know he lost his beloved wife, and his children (or child, the only one he knew about) which were the hope of his future, so perhaps all rewards in life were cold to him; and only the lie of the reward of service to Sidious and power gained were what kept him going. But did he have a social life among the rich and powerful of the imperial elite, a social status among the powerful and the jetsetters that I'm sure Sidious enjoyed? Did he go to operas and other entertainment such as Palpatine enjoyed in ROTS? Or did he spend his entire life in military service, Sith meditation, and isolation?


I think that he liked jazz.....


http://www.neweyestudio.com/ebayJ/ebj247.jpg




:bye:

[RollaFett]

^ :rofl:

Look closer, especially at the part where he's screaming and knocks a droid away from him as it's trying to work. There are droids picking things off him, like clothing and loose flesh. In fact, I inferred that is why he screams, because that's gotta hurt. I think not sedating him while that was going on was more an insidious act (get it?) than the suit. From the novelization, he needs the suit, there's not much left. Though, in the novel, he needs the digital voice because he can barely speak more than a whisper, and he yells pretty loudly when getting worked on, so obviously there are differences.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to look closer. I certainly remember seeing material still on him and him screaming. I probably never noticed exactly what some of those droids were doing. That said, it surely would've seemed as though getting rid of the burnt clothes and cleaning him up would've been a seperate task. I mean they're attatching the artificial limbs while they're doing that for crying out loud.

[Darill Cyllem]

^ :rofl:



Yeah, I'm gonna have to look closer. I certainly remember seeing material still on him and him screaming. I probably never noticed exactly what some of those droids were doing. That said, it surely would've seemed as though getting rid of the burnt clothes and cleaning him up would've been a seperate task. I mean they're attatching the artificial limbs while they're doing that for crying out loud.


Sometimes medical emergencies call for multi-tasking. I totally buy that they were cleaning him up and slavaging what was left of his limbs at the same time. Maybe skin grafts would have been a high priority, but when burns are severe and cover a large amount (or all, in Vader's case) of the skin, they're not possible. And we need skin - for temperature regulation, protection, etc. That is perhaps Vader's worst injury - severe burns all over his body.
And imagine how much it hurt - all those tiny nerves and blood vessels. Picture a paper cut, on your knuckle, so that every time you move your finger, it hurts like a :censored:. Now imagine the worst paper cut you ever got, times a thousand, all over your body! Ow.

Hence... the suit.
I'd certainly believe that Sisidous planned something, or at least used the situation to his advantage, but - to me, at least - it's believable that Vader would actually need the suit.

[Mothman]

.....Another thing I wonder about is the true nature of Vader's injuries that caused him to require an iron lung in order to live. His burns were not that bad; I have seen real life stories of burn victims with much more severe burns all over their bodies, that did not require a ventilator to be able to breath. I have heard of burn victims, or of people dying in extremely hot flash-fire scenarios where the insides of their lungs were burned so bad from breathing the hot vapors that they died instantly, because their lungs could not operate anymore. But that was not the case with Anakin. He was certainly breathing on his own after his immolation, and for quite some time before he was given imperial life support.

So my question is: Did he really need the suit's ventilator to survive, or was it a further trick by Sidious to ensure Vader knew he had no way out, no return, from his condition? In the film he appeared to be put into the suit with the burns still fresh, not even healed by bacta or skin grafted. I don't see how in that galaxy with the technology they had, artificial lungs could not have been surgically implanted, and skin grafts would not have been done to fully replace his burned flesh. And so, this stresses even further to me that Vader was played the fool by the puppet master, who kept him from having a life outside of the suit, or of knowing that treatment existed for his condition. He had already been fooled into believing that he could not have saved his wife without the dark side; that the Jedi order was a failure prior to the purge; and then that he could not return to the good side, that there was no return from the life of Darth Vader. And so I believe that the suit was a further trick and "proof" of his need for alliegience to Sidious, to the Sith, and to the dark side. I am even saying that at the time of his injuries he did not need the suit, but that during the reconstruction and "rebirth" of Vader, that things were done that cut off the lung's power to operate on their own without the suit. Hence another reason why Vader knew later that he could not disobey his master; because without the Sith and the suit the Sith had provided, he would lose the power to live that the Sith suit enabled for him.....

You know how painful it is to take off a Band-Aid after you've had it on for a day or two? Now think about Mr. Vader's suit, which appeared to be applied directly to his open wounds. That's gotta hurt!



:bye:

[RollaFett]

^ Yup, totally agree.


Sometimes medical emergencies call for multi-tasking. I totally buy that they were cleaning him up and slavaging what was left of his limbs at the same time. Maybe skin grafts would have been a high priority, but when burns are severe and cover a large amount (or all, in Vader's case) of the skin, they're not possible. And we need skin - for temperature regulation, protection, etc. That is perhaps Vader's worst injury - severe burns all over his body.
And imagine how much it hurt - all those tiny nerves and blood vessels. Picture a paper cut, on your knuckle, so that every time you move your finger, it hurts like a :censored:. Now imagine the worst paper cut you ever got, times a thousand, all over your body! Ow.

Hence... the suit.
I'd certainly believe that Sisidous planned something, or at least used the situation to his advantage, but - to me, at least - it's believable that Vader would actually need the suit.

I never questioned the need for the suit, just when it was put on him. It would seem, to me, that they would've stripped off his shredded and burnt clthes and tended to the raw and burnt flesh before attatching the limbs and everything else.

[borgmatrix]

And so, this stresses even further to me that Vader was played the fool by the puppet master, who kept him from having a life outside of the suit, or of knowing that treatment existed for his condition.
I don't think so. If there was any one reason he particularly wanted Anakin as his apprentice, it was the young man's power. Look at the scene in ROTS when Anakin trains his saber on Palpatine and admits he would like to kill him. "I know you would," he says, "I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger." And look at Sidious after Anakin has committed himself to the Sith path. "The Force is strooong with you. A powerful Sith you will become." Sidious is orgasmic over the power he senses in Anakin. And he makes reference to Anakin's incredible potential later to Yoda, saying "Darth Vader shall become more powerful than either of us." Sidious doesn't want a weak apprentice. He wants a Darth Vader who will one day be the most powerful Sith the galaxy has ever known.

When Vader came away from his battle with Obi-wan as a mechanical monster, it had to be the greatest disappointment Sidious had ever experienced. He didn't go through all that incredible effort slowly working his influence on Anakin over so many years to get a power-shackled, shell of a man.

Vader was damaged enough post-Mustafar that Sidious wouldn't have wanted to worsen things by weakening his new apprentice further with a false sense of his condition.

[thepepgal]

Had Anakin not been burnt and placed in the suit then I'm sure that Palpatine would have used him as the only one who stayed loyal. But because he was placed in the suit, it was easier to say all jedi are either enemies or dead and here is my new apprentice. This way people quickly learnt to fear Vader.

[lovelucas]

and Palpatine had to be thinking ......dang - now I have to be looking for another apprentice, one far younger and more powerful.

No conscience at all. He is actually the supreme villian of Star Wars. Anakin/Vader is ultimately a tragic figure. and I know there are those who never wanted that to be true but for me it creates a deeper story, and a complete saga.

[Tovor]

gawd f**king damnit! I just wrote a long, deep, unique post, and when I went to post it, it said I was not logged in and everything I wrote was wiped out. But I was logged in, I f**king posted not 10 minutes ago, and continued without logging out! F**k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darth Zan Maka]

That anger is very familiar to me. When that thing happened to me, i almost broke my keyboard, cause i type not very fast,you see. But at least instead you wrote angry and in a way funny post, i bet there would be a lot of smiles when people'll read that reaction of yours. Good one. Or it is just my pervertive sence of humour, than i am sorry, Tovor. Damn ,I am way off topic here.

[thepepgal]

gawd f**king damnit! I just wrote a long, deep, unique post, and when I went to post it, it said I was not logged in and everything I wrote was wiped out. But I was logged in, I f**king posted not 10 minutes ago, and continued without logging out! F**k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I once lost a post and it frustrated me. Here a tip I use, I now preview post every few minutes. It refreshes you being online for time and saves you losing the post.

[Tovor]

I once lost a post and it frustrated me. Here a tip I use, I now preview post every few minutes. It refreshes you being online for time and saves you losing the post.
Good idea. But what I should have done is highlight and copy the text before I hit the post button. I've often done that in the past, and just as I hit the post button, I had wished I'd done it that time too.

[Tovor]

For starters, I believe Palpatine had enough of a grip on the galaxy to not bother with that. So, the desire to immerse him in the ways of the Sith over rode any other notions, I would think. It is an interesting question.

As for the damage to Anakin, I always sort of assumed Anakin's will (and connection to the Force) sustained him until Palpy showed up, and then the medical capsule kept him alive until they got back to Coruscant. Perhaps by that time, the walking isolation suit/iron lung was the only way to keep him going if he was going to be ambulatory.
Interesting. Will power. The will of the being, the will of the mind.
The post that I had lost the other day, which I became so upset about losing, was a reply to your post, the first of my replies to many in this thread. I will try to get my mind moving in the same direction to relay at least some of what I remember having posted prior to losing my message.

Sidious did something to Vader when he knelt over him at the bank of the lava river. He touched his forehead. If I remember correctly, Obi-Wan did something similar to the fallen Luke in ANH, after the Tusken Raider attack. He knelt over him and touched his forehead. Why did each of them do this? Was it some sort of Force-induced trick, similar to a mind trick, where they used the Force to influence the mind of the injured man, to set his will in motion for the mind to work toward mending the injuries, keeping the injured being from slipping into shock and/or dying?

In other words, we all know that the mind is a powerful healing tool, and that a strong, focused mind can do more to heal the body, and or survive trauma, than a weak, unfocused mind. Surviving cancer is one example. Now, my mother died from cancer after a 2 year battle. No sympathy please, just hear my point. Her first year she fought hard and she believed hard, that she was going to survive. She beat the cancer into submission. Not just from a strong chemo but a strong mind and a strong will. Her determination and willpower played a large part in the body's ability to fight back against the cancer. The second year the cancer, after rising again from submission, came back with a vengeance, and she silently, without admitting it, gave up and eventually passed into the night and became one with the Force, if you will. I wish I could have used a Jedi mind trick to strengthen her will, but alas I could not save her. I wasn't strong enough to save her. But enough digression and AOTC referance. Point being, the will of the mind plays a very large part in healing and survival. And I believe that both Sidious to Vader, and later Obi-Wan to Luke, used the Force to strengthen the mind's will to survive, when they touched the head of the fallen men. I do not recall seeing Obi-Wan do that to the fallen Qui-Gon, though.

So, if I am correct, and the masters did indeed use the Force to strengthen the will to survive in the unconscious minds of the stricken men, then we can reasonably deduce that the Jedi and the Sith both did indeed have some power to increase healing and slow imminent death. See where I am going with this? Anakin did not need Sidious, or Plaguious, to save Padme. He had the power within him already. He just didn't know it. Maybe Anakin, being the Chosen One, had a greater power to do what Sidious and Obi-Wan could only do to some small degree. He came to believe that he needed Sidious to give him the power...but he already had it.

"I know that there are things about the Force that they are not telling me."

Who recalls the story of the Seventh Son of the Seventh Son? According to the Iron Maiden song of that name, the 7th Son of the 7th Son was prophesied to have great powers. And while he grew, and had paths laid out before him, both the powers of Good and of Evil watched him to see where he would turn. Both wanted him on their side, to use the powers he was said to develope; and both watched him to see how they could use him to their benefit.

Yoda and Mace were obviously wary of Anakin because they were afraid of what he could become. Sidious told Anakin many lies and half truths, but I believe that one to be fully true. They needed him, more than he knew, for what he could become, but they were also afraid of him for the same reasons. And so both sides watched and waited to see where he would turn. And I believe that Yoda knew that...or in the least Qui-Gon certainly knew...Anakin had the power within him to save others from death if one dared to show him how to access the power. And the agents of the good side were afraid to do that so they held Anakin back. But the agent of evil wasn't afraid and he convinced Anakin that Anakin needed Sidious to gain the power to save people from death; while along it was the other way around and it was really Sidious who needed it from Anakin because he knew that Anakin had the power--or was destined to have or develope it.

So Anakin had it all along. He didn't need Plaguious. He didn't need Sidious. He didn't need the Dark Side. And if Yoda hadn't been afraid of his potential and had revealed the truth to him, Anakin would have had no reason at all to trust Sidious and turn to the Dark Side because the power to save Padme was already within him. Why did Padme die again? Oh yes, she lost her will to live. And the Jedi had the power to increase that will, as shown in my examples. Of course, why they didn't try to use it on Padme at the end, I cannot answer. Blame George for that slip.

Furthermore, I believe that Sidious knew, as Yoda did, that Anakin would be too much to control once he realized his true power. He said so himself to Yoda, that Vader would become stronger than either of them. So he had to contain Vader's rising powers, to prevent him from realizing how strong he really was, and prevent him from rising up against him. And containing him in a life-support suit and leaving him to believe that he was limited in power to a level below that of Sidious and could not survive without the suit, and without Sidious, was his sure-fire trap to keep Vader in line, and in step below him.



Referances:
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/books/seventh.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_son_of_a_seventh_son


Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son

[Harris]
Here they stand brothers them all
All the sons divided they'd fall
Here await the birth of the son
The seventh, the heavenly, the chosen one.

Here the birth from the unbroken line
Born the healer the seventh, his time
Unknowingly blessed and as his life unfolds
Slowly unveiling the power he holds

[Chorus:]
Seventh son of a seventh son [4 times]

Then they watch the progress he makes
The Good and the evil which path will he take
Both of them trying to manipulate
The use of his powers before it's too late

[Chorus:]

Today is born the seventh one
Born of woman the seventh son
And he in turn of a seventh son
He has the power to heal
He has the gift of the second sight
He is the chosen one
So it shall be written
So it shall be done

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Interesting. I thought that the touch on the forehead was just a sign of affection. But what you say may well be right. I will only quickly mention it as it is EU, but I have just read a passage where a Padawan heals (to some extent) 2 afflicted beings. You have got me thinking..........:scratchchin: I wonder if Anakin did have the power to save Padme inside him all along?

[RollaFett]

Hmmm...very deep and interesting thoughts there, Tov.
That said, I disagree. I think you're reading way too much into the hand on the forehead. Remember, OB1 does this to a fallen Jedi in Geonosis arena as well, and that dude was dead as a doorknob. And there's another instance of it as well, but I can't recall when. In that case, as well, the guy was dead.
Besides, who's to say it isn't merely a way for a force user to get a 'reading' on how hurt that person may be? Y'know, more of a diagnostic's check like you get for your car?
Now, with all of that said, I do agree with your overiding point of Vader's potential, and how the suit is a way for Sidious to keep him in check.
Borg is correct when he says how much Sidious is in love with Vader's potential, but ultimately, that potential can lead to his downfall, and if there's one thing we know about Sidious, it's that he wants it all. Sure, it's great to have someone as powerful as Vader at your side, but that's the only place you want him, and you have to take steps to unsure that's where he remains. Hence, the suit.

[borgmatrix]

Now, with all of that said, I do agree with your overiding point of Vader's potential, and how the suit is a way for Sidious to keep him in check. Borg is correct when he says how much Sidious is in love with Vader's potential, but ultimately, that potential can lead to his downfall, and if there's one thing we know about Sidious, it's that he wants it all. Sure, it's great to have someone as powerful as Vader at your side, but that's the only place you want him, and you have to take steps to unsure that's where he remains. Hence, the suit.
I don't know, Rolla. I can't see Sidious being ecstatic about Vader's power, but then wanting to limit him. Why go through all that effort to bring Anakin to the DS? Why, 20+ years later, attempt to replace Vader with Luke if he preferred someone "controllable".

The way to keep Vader in his place would have been to keep certain knowledge from him. As Palpatine noted about Plageuis: "Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew...then his apprentice killed him in his sleep." Sidious, obviously, knows the lesson of that particular story. He would keep Vader in line by giving him enough to satisfy his hunger, but not enough to make Sidious dispensable.

Like you said, Rolla, Sidious wants power. And that's why he wants the strongest possible apprentice, because that apprentice is his, and therefore that power is his. Vader hoping to eventually overthrow him wouldn't bother Sidious, because its expected. It's what he would want from his apprentice, since anything less wouldn't be worthy of a Sith Lord. And Vader, had he come away from Mustafar intact, would not have been ready to take down Sidious at that point. Sidious wouldn't have had to seriously worry until many years later.

The state Vader existed in at the end of ROTS completely tarnished the accomplishment of seducing the Chosen One. I have a hard time seeing post-Mustafar Vader as being any better an apprentice than Tyranus or Maul. And that's just based on Obi-wan's contributions. Sidious wouldn't have wanted to worsen things by making Vader believe his condition was any worse than it was.

[Miasmo]

Geez, Tov. Usually I'll read over these kind of topics of yours and gain insight leading to contemplation, but I won't usually respond. Usually you address things in such a complex manner that it's hard to do so without a similarly complex response! I'll address what I think is most important.

Although Palpatine portrayed the Jedi as sudden villains to the senate and the Republic, enemies of state, why didn't he capitalize on the public's adoration for Anakin as a hero of the Republic, and portray him as the lone Jedi who stayed loyal to him, loyal to the Republic to instill greater public acceptance of the New Order? In other words, "In these dire times when the Jedi have tried to take over and kill me, one knight has remained loyal and heroic. Thus the hero of the Clone Wars, Anakin Skywalker, is the continued hero of the New Order; so you shall not have cause to worry."
What you propose is completely understandable, and I started to think the same think after I read your comments. It would probably be just as satisfying to approach the story in that way. However, I can also find one good and simple reason for avoiding that approach: If you give people hope, there's a dangerous chance they will use it to their advantage and your downfall. I think Palps finally found himself in the position to rule with a secure iron fist, so he took it while the chance still presented itself.

I think you're reading way too much into the hand on the forehead. Remember, OB1 does this to a fallen Jedi in Geonosis arena as well, and that dude was dead as a doorknob. And there's another instance of it as well, but I can't recall when. In that case, as well, the guy was dead.
Besides, who's to say it isn't merely a way for a force user to get a 'reading' on how hurt that person may be? Y'know, more of a diagnostic's check like you get for your car?
That's what I always figured. You can get a good read without physical contact, but contact is always better.

Now, with all of that said, I do agree with your overiding point of Vader's potential, and how the suit is a way for Sidious to keep him in check.
Borg is correct when he says how much Sidious is in love with Vader's potential, but ultimately, that potential can lead to his downfall, and if there's one thing we know about Sidious, it's that he wants it all. Sure, it's great to have someone as powerful as Vader at your side, but that's the only place you want him, and you have to take steps to unsure that's where he remains. Hence, the suit.
I never looked at it quite that like, but it does make a lot of sense. I do think that the suit could have possibly been avoided, but Anakin's potential thereafter would have been unpredictable at the time, so no need to take the risk.

But I could also lean to the notion that Vader did need the suit. I haven't read the PT novels, so my opinion may be swayed, but I would think that all his senses were heighted, dangerously so, during the battle with Obiwan. It took its toll afterwards, and he would have died had Palps not arrived in time. One of the things that throws this off, though, is that Obiwan did not seem extremely exhausted after the battle. Then again, Anakin was always on the attack, which can take a greater toll.

[Obi-wannabe]

Good questions:
I guess we do not know how long it took before Palpatine became a total A$@#!$e and really showed his true colors to the galaxy , so would Anakin Skywalker make that transition for the people a little better or buy an extra year of acceptance that there is now a dictatorship in control??? I think it probably would have not made that much of a difference.

As for Vader in the suit, definately think was for Palpatines control of him. I had a post a year ago that he should have cloned him if he wanted him at 100% (please no replies about a clone having the force, this is suppostion)

I think it is hard enough to make friends when your not in a suit, with an annoying breath every 5 seconds and a real scary voice. I assume he was friendless.

[Mothman]

.....So Anakin had it all along. He didn't need Plaguious. He didn't need Sidious. He didn't need the Dark Side. And if Yoda hadn't been afraid of his potential and had revealed the truth to him, Anakin would have had no reason at all to trust Sidious and turn to the Dark Side because the power to save Padme was already within him.....

Of course Anakin had the power all along to save Padme from dying. Because, she wasn't dying until he did what he did. Anakin was the cause - everything from the choke to breaking her heart. He was the source of all of that. So, from a certain point of view, he always had the power to save her.



:bye:

[Jedi Master Elad Kenobi]

Another thing I wonder about is the true nature of Vader's injuries that caused him to require an iron lung in order to live. His burns were not that bad; I have seen real life stories of burn victims with much more severe burns all over their bodies, that did not require a ventilator to be able to breath. I have heard of burn victims, or of people dying in extremely hot flash-fire scenarios where the insides of their lungs were burned so bad from breathing the hot vapors that they died instantly, because their lungs could not operate anymore. But that was not the case with Anakin. He was certainly breathing on his own after his immolation, and for quite some time before he was given imperial life support.

Mind you, a COUPLE of days to Couruscant cant be good for his burns, and he was there on the ground for ages, and theash and soot must have wrecked his lungs. And bacta is not a miricle cure, it can only repair so much, and though the suit is scary, Palatine would need a fully capable apprentice to do his bidding, not some mechanic sith. In all, a mistake on sideous's part.

[Kam Solusar]

I'd say if anything, it was an opportunistic move by Sidious. He didn't particularly want a completely shackled Vader, but couldn't pass up the opportunity when he got defeated but not killed by Obi-Wan. He still had his Vader, and now, he had a chance to really shackle him to the dark side. And like the opportunist that he was, he jumped on it.

[Mothman]

Mind you, a COUPLE of days to Couruscant cant be good for his burns, and he was there on the ground for ages, and theash and soot must have wrecked his lungs. And bacta is not a miricle cure, it can only repair so much, and though the suit is scary, Palatine would need a fully capable apprentice to do his bidding, not some mechanic sith. In all, a mistake on sideous's part.

We don't know how long the travel time was between Coruscant and Mustafar, do we? Was it "ages"? As far as screen time is concerned, it seemed like the Emperor almost instantly traveled from Coruscant to Mustafar. Wouldn't the return trip be about the same?


:bye:

[RollaFett]

I don't know, Rolla. I can't see Sidious being ecstatic about Vader's power, but then wanting to limit him. Why go through all that effort to bring Anakin to the DS? Why, 20+ years later, attempt to replace Vader with Luke if he preferred someone "controllable".



Very valid point, and I don't completely disagree. Fortunately, someone else posted a much better way of saying what I actually feel:
I'd say if anything, it was an opportunistic move by Sidious. He didn't particularly want a completely shackled Vader, but couldn't pass up the opportunity when he got defeated but not killed by Obi-Wan. He still had his Vader, and now, he had a chance to really shackle him to the dark side. And like the opportunist that he was, he jumped on it.

This is more along the lines of what I mean.

[Tovor]

I think that he liked jazz.....


http://www.neweyestudio.com/ebayJ/ebj247.jpg




:bye:
I'm sure. Vader liked the blues.

[Tovor]

Of course Anakin had the power all along to save Padme from dying. Because, she wasn't dying until he did what he did. Anakin was the cause - everything from the choke to breaking her heart. He was the source of all of that. So, from a certain point of view, he always had the power to save her.



:bye:
No doubts there. That was how the devil tricked him into selling his soul. But going by the assumption of what his dreams told him was going to happen; that she really was in danger by a valid cause of death, if we go by that, we know that if she really was going to die by another cause unrelated to Anakin's turn to the darkside, then he really did already have the power to save her.


Which leads me to another question. If Vader had won the duel and had killed Kenobi, and had brought Padme to a med lab rather than Sidious bringing him to a med lab, and Vader had been told by the medical droid that she was dying because she'd lost the will to live...could Vader have figured out how to save her? Could he have figured out how to boost her willpower to live and snatched her back from death?

I'm sure that in the present situation as it transpired, he blamed Kenobi for her death the same way he blamed him when Shmi died; because had he not been driven from Padme's side in order to duel Kenobi, he would have been able to save her like he believed he could have saved his mom.

[Tovor]

Geez, Tov. Usually I'll read over these kind of topics of yours and gain insight leading to contemplation, but I won't usually respond. Usually you address things in such a complex manner that it's hard to do so without a similarly complex response!

That's the nicest thing anybody has ever said to me. :like:




:lol:

[Zedekk]

I was just reading some of your musings and then it hit me when I came accross your comment on the dreams and anakin going off the assumption of them being predictions, what if, Darth sidious was messing with his mind giving him those types of visions? Or is that just taking it one step too far?
Imagine if he did and what that would imply in as much as how much control anakin thought he originaly had in the ensuing fight between Darth Sidious and Master Windu.
I'd also like to bring up a tangent on the Darth Vader vs Master Kenobi fight on Mustafar. did Darth Sidious really want Darth Vader to beat him? or was it a ploy to get Vader in a position of greater control under him? i.e. Sidious knew that Obi-Wan would not be beaten and likewise wouldn't kill Darth Vader, but the results of the fight brought Vader under control of Sidious due to the injuries.
I think I'm ready too much into it now. I'll just chalk it up to Darth Lords being overly confident in their power.

[Miasmo]

I was just reading some of your musings and then it hit me when I came accross your comment on the dreams and anakin going off the assumption of them being predictions, what if, Darth sidious was messing with his mind giving him those types of visions? Or is that just taking it one step too far? No, that's one reasonable conclusion. I've heard it proposed before.

[Kam Solusar]

I was just reading some of your musings and then it hit me when I came accross your comment on the dreams and anakin going off the assumption of them being predictions, what if, Darth sidious was messing with his mind giving him those types of visions? Or is that just taking it one step too far?
Imagine if he did and what that would imply in as much as how much control anakin thought he originaly had in the ensuing fight between Darth Sidious and Master Windu.
I'd also like to bring up a tangent on the Darth Vader vs Master Kenobi fight on Mustafar. did Darth Sidious really want Darth Vader to beat him? or was it a ploy to get Vader in a position of greater control under him? i.e. Sidious knew that Obi-Wan would not be beaten and likewise wouldn't kill Darth Vader, but the results of the fight brought Vader under control of Sidious due to the injuries.
I think I'm ready too much into it now. I'll just chalk it up to Darth Lords being overly confident in their power.

I doubt he expected Obi-Wan to show up on Mustafar to challenge Vader. He didn't expect Yoda to show up.

[Zedekk]

good point! another piece of evidence for overconfidence.

[Darill Cyllem]

I doubt he expected Obi-Wan to show up on Mustafar to challenge Vader. He didn't expect Yoda to show up.

I don't know what Palpatine expected about Mustafar, but I think he expected Yoda (or would have at least sensed him coming once Yoda set out for Palpatine's office). Maybe Palpatine didn't know the exact circumstances of an impending confrontation with Yoda, but as a Dark Lord of the Sith, it's wise to figure that the Grand Master of the Jedi Order will come looking for you at some point (especially after outing yourself as a Sith to someone (Anakin)). Also, Palpatine indicates that he's "waited a long time for the moment, my little green friend," when Yoda arrives.
:yoda:

[Tovor]

I don't know what Palpatine expected about Mustafar, but I think he expected Yoda (or would have at least sensed him coming once Yoda set out for Palpatine's office). Maybe Palpatine didn't know the exact circumstances of an impending confrontation with Yoda, but as a Dark Lord of the Sith, it's wise to figure that the Grand Master of the Jedi Order will come looking for you at some point (especially after outing yourself as a Sith to someone (Anakin)). Also, Palpatine indicates that he's "waited a long time for the moment, my little green friend," when Yoda arrives.
:yoda:
There would have been no doubt in Sid's mind that Yoda would come directly for him, but he sounded surprised when Yoda showed up, so I'd say he absolutely expected Yoda to be killed on the Wookiee world (I don't dare try to spell it). Sure he said that he'd waited for that moment a long time, but not for Yoda to arrive, but for Yoda to be fallen by his hand. He had expected Yoda to be killed by Order 66, but since he hadn't, he got his chance (almost) to off the Jedi Master himself. But if the clones had succeeded in killing Yoda, that too was the moment he had waited a long time for.

[Kam Solusar]

I don't know what Palpatine expected about Mustafar, but I think he expected Yoda (or would have at least sensed him coming once Yoda set out for Palpatine's office). Maybe Palpatine didn't know the exact circumstances of an impending confrontation with Yoda, but as a Dark Lord of the Sith, it's wise to figure that the Grand Master of the Jedi Order will come looking for you at some point (especially after outing yourself as a Sith to someone (Anakin)). Also, Palpatine indicates that he's "waited a long time for the moment, my little green friend," when Yoda arrives.
:yoda:

Just based off his "Master Yoda. You survived." delivery, I'm saying he didn't expect any of the Jedi in the field to survive or make it back to Coruscant. He's less than pleased to see Yoda there. If he knew he was coming...why act like he didn't? Palpatine is ALL about the "I know everything so nothing is up to fate, I'm gonna win."

[Darill Cyllem]

Yes... good points, Tov and Kam. Another case of Palpatine's overconfidence (in his own omnipotence) being his weakness.

[Mothman]

I was just reading some of your musings and then it hit me when I came accross your comment on the dreams and anakin going off the assumption of them being predictions, what if, Darth sidious was messing with his mind giving him those types of visions? Or is that just taking it one step too far?
Imagine if he did and what that would imply in as much as how much control anakin thought he originaly had in the ensuing fight between Darth Sidious and Master Windu.
I'd also like to bring up a tangent on the Darth Vader vs Master Kenobi fight on Mustafar. did Darth Sidious really want Darth Vader to beat him? or was it a ploy to get Vader in a position of greater control under him? i.e. Sidious knew that Obi-Wan would not be beaten and likewise wouldn't kill Darth Vader, but the results of the fight brought Vader under control of Sidious due to the injuries.
I think I'm ready too much into it now. I'll just chalk it up to Darth Lords being overly confident in their power.

I would agree with this. IMO, during the Episode II days, Mr. Sidious not only was messing with Lil' Ani's head through his dreams, he probably also had control of some kind over the Sandpeople when they captured Mrs. Lars. I believe that Mr. Sidious orchestrated the whole thing.


:bye:

[Zedekk]

I would agree with this. IMO, during the Episode II days, Mr. Sidious not only was messing with Lil' Ani's head through his dreams, he probably also had control of some kind over the Sandpeople when they captured Mrs. Lars. I believe that Mr. Sidious orchestrated the whole thing.


:bye:
I never thought of that. It's quite interesting really and not too far a stretch for someone who is already adept at manipulating corrupt Senators. No wonder palpy was overconfident. :lol: