English: Only language in the US?

[one with many names]

Lately i have been hearing alot about people driving to make english the official language of the US. While admittedly this would make things alot easier for millions of people here and possibly bring the country closer together by eliminating a gap i am still concerned.

It's just that language is such a important symbol of someone's culture and origins. Banning a language is almost like banning someone's way of life.

I just can't get over the feeling that it would be the first step to turning this country into another Nazi Germany.

Maybe i'm just paranoid but alot of times the only way to stop a snowball effect is to prevent it from getting started in the first place.

[Talcy]

Is it being banned in the US?

English is the "official" language of the UK and yet folks here can still speak Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Doric (the few who do!) and even Cornish.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Am I missing something? I thought English was the official language of the US?! But then, I am a stupid Brit. :wink:

[Darill Cyllem]

The US doesn't have an official language, though English is used in many "official" transactions. One of the things i like about the US is that it's possible to be in an area or a neighborhood where English isn't going to get you anywhere! It's what makes us diverse and, i think, interesting. You can go to Chicago and get by with Polish. You can go to Minneapolis and get by with Somali or Urdu. You can go a lot of places and get by with Spanish... etc.
Of course, English is very useful and those who don't know it (or don't know it well) are often cheated, discriminated against, and unable to access services (e.g. going to the doctor) to which they are entitled.
I think in the case of the US, having an official language would be bad, for the reasons one with many names listed and a few others; i'm not sure we'd manage it the way the UK has, Talcy! The things that are bad about the way non-native English speakers in the US are treated would only get worse.

[JackBauer24]

I have absolutely no problem with English being made the official language of the US.

[Talcy]

Well, there aren't that many folks in the UK who speak the languages I mentioned - the biggest one is probably Welsh - for some Welsh folks it's their first language!

One thing that has arisen in the UK lately is the suggestion (from Gordon Brown, no less) that immigrants to the UK should be made to learn English. Now, given where I live (Leith is the most cosmopolitan part of Edinburgh - Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Ukranians, Poles, to say the least) there is a wide range of languages, but the one thing that unites a lot of folk her eis a common language in English. It costs so much money for the council to get full time translators for each case when someone cannot speak English in a given situation (especially considering that Indians have several languages - Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Bengali and about 10 other official Indian languages), and many in ethnic communities here are beginning to agree with this. If I went to live in China, I'd certainly make at least some effort to learn Cantonese or Mandarin.

So, I'm in with making a language official - it can help brings communities together, overcoming language barriers. But it should never be at the expense of one's own cultural background. A language should never and can never be banned (the English tried it in Scotland a couple of hundred years ago after Culloden and it failed).

[Master Magnus]

Well, I'm not an American, so I'll only speak from a general perspective, but being able to communicate with people outside of one's ethnic or cultural background, to understand legislation, what's happening in the society etc. can't possibly be any bad.

[Darill Cyllem]

I think most people do try to learn English, and most can get by OK - getting around the airport, catching the bus, stuff at work, etc. But when it comes to something important - you're at the doctor, there's some kind of legal proceding, doing your taxes, trying to discuss with a teacher ways to get your kid to do better at school, or whatever it is - i'd want to do that in a language with which i was quite familiar.

In the end, a lot of this comes down to people's opinions on immigration and immigrants. We have a glovalized economy, but not a globalized work force.

[Krogenar]

It's just that language is such a important symbol of someone's culture and origins. Banning a language is almost like banning someone's way of life.

I just can't get over the feeling that it would be the first step to turning this country into another Nazi Germany.

Maybe i'm just paranoid but alot of times the only way to stop a snowball effect is to prevent it from getting started in the first place.

Yes, you're being paranoid.

No one is considering 'banning' any language when they discuss making English the 'official' language. All that means is that grade school students will be taught English and not given special classes taught in their native tongues. They can still speak any language they choose when they go home, but in classrooms they'll speak English.

The entire point of backing English as the 'official' language is that it would encourage immigrants to acculturate to their new culture: America. If that amounts to the creation of a Nazi state, well, wow ... don't come to America!

Here's a list of some other Nazi-like states that have declared an 'official' language:

France - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France
Japan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan
Greece - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
Dominican Republic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Republic

By 'official' it means that these countries use a specific language for their legislative and legal processes. Countries may recognize other languages and make documents and materials available in those languages.

Considering that American comprises so many immigrants from so many different places it would make sense for us to declare an official language. Language is (as you point out) the basic building block of a culture. I don't think immigrants or America are well served by making it easier for people to continue to speak the language they spoke before the immigrated (legally or otherwise). If you're an American now, make an effort to speak the language of your new home. If you don't really consider yourself an American, and just a foreign national living in America, then just go home.

If I moved to Swaziland, I would make an effort to learn to speak Swahili, for my own sake. So should immigrants in America. Yes, you'll lose part of your culture, but too bad. If your culture is more important to you, remain in your country of origin with your culture safely intact. That's our first lesson for immigrants: no whining. Whining is not American.

[DblDwn]

English is named as such because of its background in England. The English that we speak in the US is different in more than a few ways. That said, I think we should officially name our version American and make it the official language of this country.

I have no problem with people speaking native languages in America. The Latino should be able to speak Spanish. The Asian should be able to speak some form of Asian language whether it be Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. The Arabic should be able to speak Arabic. The French should speak French. Italians speaking Italian. And so on. I have no problem at all with people embracing, and maintaining, their ethnic and/or cultural heritage. I do, however, feel strongly that if you are going to come to America to live then you should be able to speak English. I'm not saying you must be completely fluent but at least knowledgeable enough in the English language to carry on a conversation in public if the situation arises.

As I've said before, if I was going to move to another country like, say, Italy, I would at least have the common courtesy to learn the basics of the native language so that I may be more successful in interactions with others.

[DblDwn]

If I moved to Swaziland, I would make an effort to learn to speak Swahili, for my own sake. So should immigrants in America. Yes, you'll lose part of your culture, but too bad. If your culture is more important to you, remain in your country of origin with your culture safely intact. That's our first lesson for immigrants: no whining. Whining is not American.

Slightly frightening that we were typing the same thing at, more or less, the same time.

Well stated.

[Master Magnus]

Yes, you're being paranoid.

No one is considering 'banning' any language when they discuss making English the 'official' language. All that means is that grade school students will be taught English and not given special classes taught in their native tongues. They can still speak any language they choose when they go home, but in classrooms they'll speak English.

The entire point of backing English as the 'official' language is that it would encourage immigrants to acculturate to their new culture: America. If that amounts to the creation of a Nazi state, well, wow ... don't come to America!

Here's a list of some other Nazi-like states that have declared an 'official' language:

France - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France
Japan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan
Greece - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
Dominican Republic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Republic

By 'official' it means that these countries use a specific language for their legislative and legal processes. Countries may recognize other languages and make documents and materials available in those languages.

Considering that American comprises so many immigrants from so many different places it would make sense for us to declare an official language. Language is (as you point out) the basic building block of a culture. I don't think immigrants or America are well served by making it easier for people to continue to speak the language they spoke before the immigrated (legally or otherwise). If you're an American now, make an effort to speak the language of your new home. If you don't really consider yourself an American, and just a foreign national living in America, then just go home.

If I moved to Swaziland, I would make an effort to learn to speak Swahili, for my own sake. So should immigrants in America. Yes, you'll lose part of your culture, but too bad. If your culture is more important to you, remain in your country of origin with your culture safely intact. That's our first lesson for immigrants: no whining. Whining is not American.
Let me get this straight: You say that pupils should only be taught English at school, thereby restricting the choices of other individuals. The government is not responsible for defending the integrity of the English language. English should be able to defend itself. What tyrannic ideas, there Krog. Color me surprised... :wink:

[Cassus Fett]

At some point there are only going to be about three languages left in this world. English: The most dominant, Chinese and Arabic. Or so ive heard anyway.

You have spelt Colour wrong MM.

[leiaorgana]

I do recall when I visited Miami I was there for almost 3 months and one of the things people complained the most was the immigrants looking for a job and not even being able to speak English... Don't get me wrong, I'm an immigrant and English is my 2nd language.
I do think it's better for everybody if when moving to a country the immigrant knows the language, and it's (imho) a basic if you're moving with a purpose of finding new better opportunities, though not always people have the access to learn this language, some move not because the want to but because of wars, seeking refuge, etc.

Edit: Just to clarify I am not American nor I live in the U.S. is just a simple opinion.

[Darill Cyllem]

I think you have a valid point, leiaorgana. Not everyone who immigrates does so because that's what they really want: the American lifestyle, culture, etc. Many are refugees. Staying in the coutnry/culture of origin may not be a viable option.

I agree that knowing the language of the place you live is useful, and i think most non-native English speakers in the U.S. agree. The hard part is finding the means to learn it - the time to do it when working multiple jobs, finding a decent class that isn't too expensive, learning a second language as an adult period is difficult, let alone if one's formal education is somewhat limited. So... i'm just saying... the situation is a bit complicated.

[nefertiti]

But isn't it also an economic question?

Speaking as a non-director of children in school anymore. The non-english speaking kids are at a great disadvantage. And the community bears the financial responsibility for ensuring that they receive an education. Which might mean hiring teachers specific to the language. An additional cost to the "tax-payer."

I never got this as a "Come to America...but speak English (or American if you like) out of this argument. Or a loss of culture.

Down here all the children dress in uniforms. Oh, not the old Catholic stuff...but trousers and polo shirts... I initially thought that was a bad idea. A loss of individuality. But see now that it can be thought of as an financial savings to the family, a deterrant to theft and assist in keeping the self esteem of a child who might not be able to afford all the fal-da-ral of school kids clothes. They don't necessarily all look like little soldiers...because they add a kinda personal identification to the outfits.

In the same line, I think that English (now the language of the financial world), is "introduced" in schools around the world. We have classes for just about any language you could possibly want to learn and requiring that newbies to American are able to understand what's going on is healthy for them and health for business.

[Fallen One]

But isn't it also an economic question?

Speaking as a non-director of children in school anymore. The non-english speaking kids are at a great disadvantage. And the community bears the financial responsibility for ensuring that they receive an education. Which might mean hiring teachers specific to the language. An additional cost to the "tax-payer."

I never got this as a "Come to America...but speak English (or American if you like) out of this argument. Or a loss of culture.

Down here all the children dress in uniforms. Oh, not the old Catholic stuff...but trousers and polo shirts... I initially thought that was a bad idea. A loss of individuality. But see now that it can be thought of as an financial savings to the family, a deterrant to theft and assist in keeping the self esteem of a child who might not be able to afford all the fal-da-ral of school kids clothes. They don't necessarily all look like little soldiers...because they add a kinda personal identification to the outfits.

In the same line, I think that English (now the language of the financial world), is "introduced" in schools around the world. We have classes for just about any language you could possibly want to learn and requiring that newbies to American are able to understand what's going on is healthy for them and health for business. That is about as dead on as it gets I totally agree I enjoyed your view on the uniforms thats a view I have not heard before nice work..

[Darill Cyllem]

Another point is that it's regrettable for someone to loose the native language - and i don't know if having an "official language" would assist in that. Being multi-lingual is a tremendous advantage (has been for me, and others i know, at any rate), and we spend plenty of time (immersion schools, etc.) trying to make English-speakers bilingual. There's a great opportunity to have more people who can speak a multiple langauges by helping make sure those with a different native language don't lose it when they acquire English. Of course it's not individual schools' responsibility to offer language instruction in every conceivable language (or preserve immigrants' native languages) - but especially at a young age, it would be great to see more language education in multiple languages.
It would also be great to see less stigma attached to having a native language other than English. Seems like adopting an official language would only increase the stigma.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

In relation to that schools in England from next year (or so) will have to teach at least one foreign language (most likely le francais) to 7 year olds. I think in these globalised times it is very useful to speak multiple languages and gives people more opportunities.

I think that making English (or your version of it :nahnah: ) the official language of the US would bring people together more than push them apart.

[nefertiti]

Being multi-lingual has to be an absolute for todays growing society. For us'ins over here, it needs to be English for continuity - if nothing else. And I still disagree with the loss of culture...how so? Don't we learn about our specific heritages in the home? The whole passing down and passing onto....

[one with many names]

Yes, you're being paranoid.

No one is considering 'banning' any language when they discuss making English the 'official' language. All that means is that grade school students will be taught English and not given special classes taught in their native tongues. They can still speak any language they choose when they go home, but in classrooms they'll speak English.

The entire point of backing English as the 'official' language is that it would encourage immigrants to acculturate to their new culture: America. If that amounts to the creation of a Nazi state, well, wow ... don't come to America!

Here's a list of some other Nazi-like states that have declared an 'official' language:

France - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France
Japan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan
Greece - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
Dominican Republic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Republic

By 'official' it means that these countries use a specific language for their legislative and legal processes. Countries may recognize other languages and make documents and materials available in those languages.

Considering that American comprises so many immigrants from so many different places it would make sense for us to declare an official language. Language is (as you point out) the basic building block of a culture. I don't think immigrants or America are well served by making it easier for people to continue to speak the language they spoke before the immigrated (legally or otherwise). If you're an American now, make an effort to speak the language of your new home. If you don't really consider yourself an American, and just a foreign national living in America, then just go home.

If I moved to Swaziland, I would make an effort to learn to speak Swahili, for my own sake. So should immigrants in America. Yes, you'll lose part of your culture, but too bad. If your culture is more important to you, remain in your country of origin with your culture safely intact. That's our first lesson for immigrants: no whining. Whining is not American.

You just stated my worst fears better then i ever could myself.

And you will note that i said "is the first towards". I think we would all be better off if we remembered that old proverb "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

What i am worried about is something like this. One person passes a law that says everyone must speak english. Alittle ways down the road someone else does something that says "if you can't speak english then you can't be american" then alittle further down the road someone says "I am american you are not therefore you aren't human! *bang*

Worst case scenario, granted. Not exactly a probuble outcome, also granted. But that is how alot of things tend to get started.

Aslong as america is a country of diverse culture, diverse language and with no clear 'way of life' then you can't really start pointing fingers and saying "your not an american!" because you can easily retaliate with "Well then what is american?"

[DblDwn]

To clarify my previous statement, I am very much in favor of everyone living in America being capable of speaking English. However I have no problem with anyone speaking a native language within their daily lives just as long as they can also speak English in case the situation presents itself where a language barrier is nothing short of costly.

[Darill Cyllem]

Like i said before, having a law in the US declaring English as the only official language would, i think, increase the stigma of being a non-native speaker of English. There is no was that will promote cultural (or linguistic) diversity.

About being bilingual - a lot of ESL (English as a Second Langague) education in the US, in schools especially, tends to - and this is based on my own limited experience - come at the expense of the native language. Since knowing more than one language is a good idea, it seems ESL programs should be promoting being bilingual instead of English only.

[Sargoth]

I think most people do try to learn English, and most can get by OK.

You've never been to a McDonald's drive-through in Phoenix, have you? :D


In one of my first jobs, I was in a row of cubes' that could've been out of a frikkin Benneton ad. We had a Chinaman, three Indians, a Russain, a Bulgarian, a Romanian, and an Arab. English was not the first language for *any* of them.


... but they learned.

... Every one of them

... Some even spoke better English than *natives*.

Of course, in personal conversation, I got an earful of Hindi, Telegu, Farsi, Russian, etc. But when it was time for *business*, it was only English.

I would argue that to be part of the "American Dream", you need to adapt a certain modicum of American culture. As any good philologist will tell you, language is the fulcrum of cultural identity.

Making English the 'official language' of the US is a symbolic gesture - nothing more. There will be no teeth to it, as there are currently plenty of Federal and State statutes that insist on a multi-lingual governance (e.g. all Ballots must be available in Spanish). However, I would recommend that government encourage *all* immigrants to learn the language. While this bar should remain low for temporary visa holders, if someone wants to apply for Permanent Resident status or Citizenship, they should be able to demonstrate a working proficiency with English.

[Darill Cyllem]

Don't you think it's likely that once an official language is declared (at the federal level), stautes that insist on multi-lingual governance (like ballots, etc.) are much more likely to be revoked or overturned?

[Sargoth]

^ It's possible. But honestly, I don't think we'll see congress racing to revoke a bunch of laws any time soon. I see naming English as the official langage as an easy way of placating the more xenophobic citizens without actually changing anything.

[nefertiti]

^I agree....no big rush to do any overturning if and when this idea comes to fruition...

Sargoth...perfect example of how making English the language of the US won't stop cultures from becoming a part of the US, while retaining their ties to the old country. To forget who we are (were), where we come from is to loose touch with the foundation of where we are going.

[Darill Cyllem]

Should we worry about placating the xenophobes?
I don't think that's a reason to adopt a policy.

[Krogenar]

You just stated my worst fears better then i ever could myself.

:eh:

What i am worried about is something like this. One person passes a law that says everyone must speak english. A little ways down the road someone else does something that says "if you can't speak english then you can't be american" then alittle further down the road someone says "I am american you are not therefore you aren't human! *bang*

Um, I don't think that's likely to happen. As I stated, no one is suggesting that other languages be outlawed. For example, no one is suggesting that people be arrested for speaking Esperanto, as opposed to English. What we're talking about is not making special steps to make sure someone who has steadfastly refused to learn English has a version of every document and sign printed up in Esperanto, or Swahili, or any other language. Or maybe not every language. Canada is an example of a country with more than one official language. In many parts of Canada road signs are printed in both French and English, since these are the predominant languages of the citizenry.

Aslong as america is a country of diverse culture, diverse language and with no clear 'way of life' then you can't really start pointing fingers and saying "your not an american!" because you can easily retaliate with "Well then what is american?"

I think the government is capable of declaring an official language, I don't think this precipitates a slide into Nazism, and I think a country is stronger when its citizens have a shared culture, or shared cultural beliefs. Right now with multiculturalism I think we're subsidizing ethnic Balkanization.

[Krogenar]

^ It's possible. But honestly, I don't think we'll see congress racing to revoke a bunch of laws any time soon. I see naming English as the official langage as an easy way of placating the more xenophobic citizens without actually changing anything.

Right. Let's make English the official language and ignore the laws. That's what we're doing when it comes to illegal immigrants; why stop there?

[Master Magnus]

Krog, you missed my post on the first page.

[Kam Solusar]

English is named as such because of its background in England. The English that we speak in the US is different in more than a few ways. That said, I think we should officially name our version American and make it the official language of this country.


Our version is merely a dialect, and not enough of a variation of language that it constitutes getting its own name, to be honest. I mean, they do not speak Mexican in Mexico, they speak Spanish, but there are about the same amount of differences between Mexican Spanish and core Spanish as there are between American English and core English.

[DblDwn]

I was more or less fueling the fire when I said that. I don't honestly think that we should rename our version American. I just wanted to see what kind of a reaction that comment would receive.

I do stand by my other comments however regarding citizens of America being required to at least carry on a conversation in English.

[Darill Cyllem]

DblDwn, that is a requirement for citizenship in the US.

[Krogenar]

Let me get this straight: You say that pupils should only be taught English at school, thereby restricting the choices of other individuals. The government is not responsible for defending the integrity of the English language. English should be able to defend itself. What tyrannic ideas, there Krog. Color me surprised... :wink:

I'm saying that for the benefit of the students, and our common culture, the state should encourage students to learn English. Instead what we have is a system in which students are enabled to better cope with not learning English. Children of immigrants are routinely put in bilingual programs, in order to help them retain their 'cultural integrity'.

If I had things my way, there would be no state schools at all.

The children of immigrants would be educated completely at the discretion of their parents. Some immigrant parents would decline to have their children educated at all, which is their choice. Assuming that there would be an education voucher system in place, with no strings attached, some parents would use the vouchers to send their children to a school of their choice. The most appallingly stupid parents would send their children to schools that taught their children in their 'native' tongue: Swahili, French, Ebonics, Spanish -- whatever. Others would be wiser and insist that their children learn English first, and some other language at their discretion.

For purposes of the existing monopolistic state-run education, I would prefer that learning to speak and master English be emphasized. Of course, if you'd prefer not to be tyrannized by my opinion, then allow a voucher system. :D But since we have no choice but to be tyrannized by a one-size-fits-all public education system, let it be my point of view.

For the sake of declaring a set language(s) to be the official state language (used on forms, in offices, legislation, etc.) I don't think that's tyrannous so long as someone is still allowed to speak in another language.

[Darill Cyllem]

Hmmm... my impression about how ESL works in the US is completely opposite yours, Krogenar. My impression is that most bilingual programs are aimed at native English speakers with the goal of making them bilingual, not that their aimed at other-language speakers. My impression is also that most schools do not foster retention of the native language.
We live in different areas of the US, i guess.

[Iknis]

I'm saying that for the benefit of the students, and our common culture, the state should encourage students to learn English. Instead what we have is a system in which students are enabled to better cope with not learning English. Children of immigrants are routinely put in bilingual programs, in order to help them retain their 'cultural integrity'.

If I had things my way, there would be no state schools at all.

The children of immigrants would be educated completely at the discretion of their parents. Some immigrant parents would decline to have their children educated at all, which is their choice. Assuming that there would be an education voucher system in place, with no strings attached, some parents would use the vouchers to send their children to a school of their choice. The most appallingly stupid parents would send their children to schools that taught their children in their 'native' tongue: Swahili, French, Ebonics, Spanish -- whatever. Others would be wiser and insist that their children learn English first, and some other language at their discretion.Hmmm... my impression about how ESL works in the US is completely opposite yours, Krogenar. My impression is that most bilingual programs are aimed at native English speakers with the goal of making them bilingual, not that their aimed at other-language speakers. My impression is also that most schools do not foster retention of the native language.Through my own experiences in international schools, I've seen several 'reasons' for why people decide to join :
a) Immigrants who's parents have been sent to or have chosen to live in a nother country than their own and whoes children -need to learn the language of the new country (from a foreign language pov ie. not being taught philosophy in a totally foerign language) - want to keep developing their mother tongue (either because being bilingual or more is a useful asset later in life or because they may return to their original country)
b)People who live in their own country but who want their children to learn a foreign language

You also have schools which solely teach in a feorign language (ex. The American institution of... or L'Ecole francaise de...) designed for expats who will be moving our of the country once their education is finished or once their parents move again.

[Master Magnus]

I'm saying that for the benefit of the students, and our common culture, the state should encourage students to learn English.
But that's not what you said. You said that no languages other than English should be taught, which is different from encouraging students. And what 'common culture' are we talking about here?

Instead what we have is a system in which students are enabled to better cope with not learning English. Children of immigrants are routinely put in bilingual programs, in order to help them retain their 'cultural integrity'.
Yes, and the same is (unfortunately) true here in Sweden as well.

For the sake of declaring a set language(s) to be the official state language (used on forms, in offices, legislation, etc.) I don't think that's tyrannous so long as someone is still allowed to speak in another language.
Speaking from my own perspective, I agree fully.

[Krogenar]

Hmmm... my impression about how ESL works in the US is completely opposite yours, Krogenar. My impression is that most bilingual programs are aimed at native English speakers with the goal of making them bilingual, not that their aimed at other-language speakers.

ESL programs in my area stand for 'English as a Second Language' -- meaning that the students in ESL programs don't live in households where the primary language spoken is English. For these students, English is 'a second language' to be learned. I disagree with the ESL programs because I believe that it is in the best interests of these children to teach them English as quickly as possible as early as possible.

In stark contrast to that goal, ESL programs put students who are not native English speakers into classrooms with teachers who speak their native tongue. The idea is to 'ease' these students into speaking English, so that they don't lose their native tongue. Most studies show that children learn new languages best at an early age, and that the best method is full immersion. Think back to your days of taking French in high school (I took Latin in protest); what was the rule? No speaking anything but French in the class. You want to go to the bathroom? Ask for permission in French please.

My impression is also that most schools do not foster retention of the native language. We live in different areas of the US, i guess.

We must be living in alternate realities.
The focus of ESL programs seems to be not teaching English (which in the long run is almost certainly in the best interests of the students) but rather to put as many teachers on the payroll whose only real qualification is that they speak Spanish. So instead of doing what's in the best interests of the students, we achieve two political goals:

1. We pay homage to Multiculturalism.
2. We get Spanish-speaking people on the government payroll and firmly in the Democratic side of the political aisle.

And so students graduate speaking either pidgen English, or no English -- a state that will not prepare them well for attaining a good job. But hey, at least they've still got their culture intact. They're nigh unemployable, but they're keepin' it real.

[Krogenar]

But that's not what you said. You said that no languages other than English should be taught, which is different from encouraging students.

I don't recall saying that, but if I did, then I mispoke.
English should be encouraged and promoted. The teaching and 'retention' of other languages should be a far lower priority.

And what 'common culture' are we talking about here?

American culture is the 'common culture' I'm talking about supporting and strengthening. That means a set of civic values, and yes, a language. Keep in mind, I'm speaking in terms of the monopolistic public education system I am nearly powerless to change. Since we're in a monopoly situation, I have to play the game. And my 'play' is promote English as a primary language. If I had things my way, there wouldn't be one football, but lots of them, and immigrants could decide to shield their children from English at all costs, if they so chose. But since I'm not in that ideal situation I have to take a stand. And my stand is 'promote English as a primary language'.

[Master Magnus]

I don't recall saying that, but if I did, then I mispoke.
English should be encouraged and promoted. The teaching and 'retention' of other languages should be a far lower priority.
To refresh your memory:
All that means is that grade school students will be taught English and not given special classes taught in their native tongues. They can still speak any language they choose when they go home, but in classrooms they'll speak English.
But alright then.

American culture is the 'common culture' I'm talking about supporting and strengthening. That means a set of civic values, and yes, a language. Keep in mind, I'm speaking in terms of the monopolistic public education system I am nearly powerless to change. Since we're in a monopoly situation, I have to play the game. And my 'play' is promote English as a primary language. If I had things my way, there wouldn't be one football, but lots of them, and immigrants could decide to shield their children from English at all costs, if they so chose. But since I'm not in that ideal situation I have to take a stand. And my stand is 'promote English as a primary language'.
But why English? The U.S. is undergoing a huge demographic change and is becoming increasingly diverse (as most Western European countries) and is it then even possible to discuss concepts such as a 'common culture' and 'common language'?

[kopernikuz]

I believe he meant grade school students will be taught IN English... other languages will be offered as courses. For example... I took 4 years of Spanish in high school, but my native language is English.

English should be the primary language of usage in the United States. People are and should be free to learn and know as many languages as they like... but they should be able to at least speak English. If I decided I was going to live in France, then it should behoove me to learn the language social and business communications are done in predominantly. If I move to Sweden... I'd learn Swedish. Japan - Japanese. It just makes sense.

Also you can find ESL classes for free in most cities. There's very little excuse for not at least trying.

[Master Magnus]

^Yes, that is my position as well.

[Sarah-Leia]

I didn't actually know that the US didn't have an official language! :ohwell:

[Krogenar]

But why English? The U.S. is undergoing a huge demographic change and is becoming increasingly diverse (as most Western European countries) and is it then even possible to discuss concepts such as a 'common culture' and 'common language'?

The French have found it possible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Culture_(France)

The Ministry of Jacques Toubon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Toubon) was notable for a number of laws (the "Toubon Laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubon_Law)") enacted for the preservation of the French language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language), both in advertisements (all ads must include a French translation of foreign words) and on the radio (40% of songs on French radio stations must be in French), ostensibly in reaction to the presence of English.

So French culture is changing, and the French are determined to put the brakes on that change. Now, I'm not saying we should outlaw anything. We should just promote the English language in America, so that we all have something very basic in common. Immigrants are a source of American strength and versatility, to be sure -- but we need to acculturate them into an overarching 'American Culture'.

Illegal immigrants are like people whom you invite into your home, but are unwilling to follow even the most basic rules. Imagine people entering your home via the windows, the chimney, or through the basement door. Then they refuse to take their coats or hats off. The current state of things in America labels anyone who notices these illegal aliens and says, "Whoa! Enough already!" as a xenophobe.

Immigrants are welcome in America; but take your shoes off, come in through the front door, take off your coat, and make an effort to learn and speak English. Is that really so much to ask, that the process not be a lawless free-for-all?

[Master Magnus]

The French have found it possible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Culture_(France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Culture_%28France))
That is through a government ministry. I thought that you had made it quite clear that the government shouldn't take positions and impose restrictions on individuals.

[kopernikuz]

That is through a government ministry. I thought that you had made it quite clear that the government shouldn't take positions and impose restrictions on individuals.
Come on... no restrictions is lawlessness and anarchy... I know you don't believe he or any of us who back a limited government have proposed that. :rolleyes:

[Master Magnus]

Come on... no restrictions is lawlessness and anarchy... I know you don't believe he or any of us who back a limited government have proposed that. :rolleyes:
Those 'us' includes me as well, but there are things about his reasoning that I would like to understand better. Why is it alright for the government to interfere in the private realm of the individual when it comes to things such as culture and language, but why is it at the same time wrong for the government to decide that only accepted scientific theories should be taught in science classes and not pseudo-science and non-scientific ideas as that is 'imposing' the will of the government on the individual (things Krog and I've discussed earlier and which is relevant for this thread)? So it boils down to this: Why is it alright for the government to impose a language on immigrants when the government can provide the same information etc. in the native language of the immigrant? Why should the government and not the civil society decide which language should be spoken? This is much more restricting the choices of the individual compared with the aforementioned example.

[nefertiti]

I don't understand. How is requiring individuals, who want to immigrate to the US, to understand, read and write in English? That doesn't sweep away culture or personal language preference. It doesn't strip away religious beliefs. It does however, help the immigrant become part of society. It does help the immigrant not be a victim of less than honest individuals.

Hasn't it been brought up that knowing more than 1 language is a plus? I agree. So how does making English the language of America disrespect other cultures or religions?

[one with many names]

I don't understand. How is requiring individuals, who want to immigrate to the US, to understand, read and write in English? That doesn't sweep away culture or personal language preference. It doesn't strip away religious beliefs. It does however, help the immigrant become part of society. It does help the immigrant not be a victim of less than honest individuals.

Hasn't it been brought up that knowing more than 1 language is a plus? I agree. So how does making English the language of America disrespect other cultures or religions?

I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with it at all. What i am afraid of is that the next thing we know someone is passing a law openly banning all other languages then little by little making immigrants secound class citizens.

I'm not saying that is what WILL happen but i am just concerned that we may, as a nation, go down that path by accident.

[nefertiti]

Hahah! Call me simple minded ...because aren't we all immigrants? Yes, there are those who claim a line back to the Mayflower and maybe rightly so they should enjoy the poshness it gives them. The country has had major influxes of immigrants in the past and dealt with it - in a negative way...again, silly of me to say maybe we have learned. Silly to say again that the country is based upon immigration. The Native Indians are the ony ones who can claim purest...and maybe the science of today could prove even them wrong.

Today is St. Paddy's Day an Irish-religious day for wearing funny cloths and drinking funny colored beer. Supported by the local communities, funded by the government (in some fashion)...but almost completely in origin immigrant and religious.

There are other holidays that are not as well supported that our fathers and mothers brought over from the old country. Foods that we pay in resturants for that are from other countries. We are a melting pot of all cultures and religious. I believe that asking immigrants to learn the language is not an imposition, but a positive step towards a better way of living. Because, that's supposed to be the reason people come to the states.

If we are a country of immigrants, then together wouldn't we say no to the abolishment of other languages? I think so. I have faith that we would.

[Sargoth]

I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with it at all. What i am afraid of is that the next thing we know someone is passing a law openly banning all other languages then little by little making immigrants secound class citizens.


Well, if it ever does come down to that point, I hope you believe in the 2nd amendment. The outright banning of a language would clearly mean that we have descended into a fascist state.


There are more subtle warning signs that we should be concerned about. For one is the contract awarded to Halliburton last year (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/national/04halliburton.html?ex=1296709200&en=01728da2eba059e4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss) to build new detention facilities for handling an "immigrant emergency". This is a very chilling story. The department of Homeland security couldn't spend the money to reinforce the levees in New Orleans - even though they knew what a levee break would do to the city, but yet, they spend nearly $400 million to build prisons for an 'immigrant emergency'?!

Be vigilant.

[Kam Solusar]

I think a lot of the language problems would be solved if the country as a whole was a lot less lenient on illegal immigration. I'm about as liberal as they come, and I welcome people to the US with open arms, but dang it, do it legally. We've gotta be the only major country that just sort of lets it slide. There is a piece of legislation up in the Maryland legislature about whether or not in-state tuition should be provided for illegal immigrants. Excuse me? How can they qualify for a perk, any perk, that is granted to someone for residency?? They aren't here legally!
My point being is that holding on to your old culture is one thing, but when you're greasing the system there's probably an inclination to feeling like there's no need to learn your surroundings primary language of origins.

Plus, the US has to be the only country where the primary language speakers have this overall sense of guilt about being the primary language speakers. Ever been in a foreign country and not been remotely fluent in the primary language? You get more annoyed looks for being an ignorant American than sympathetic help (though I do admit that you do get the help from time to time. As cynical as I can be, I do acknowledge that people in the world aren't all bad).

[Sarah-Leia]

What I'm thinking is that no matter what your official language may be, you don't have to speak it, not necessarily. Think about Singapore. The official language is Malay, due to its heritage. 14% of all Singaporeans are Malay (including my mother :)). 81% are Chinese. They speak Chinese. The official language may be Malay, but Mandarin and English are the two most commonly spoken. So even if you adopt Swahili as your official language, I don't think it matters if you speak English. I mean, who in the US or almost anywhere else can SPEAK Swahili? (I'm telling you, I can't.) So it's not like you'd be the only English speaking American.

...debate me if you don't agree. I might be turned.

[kopernikuz]

Those 'us' includes me as well, but there are things about his reasoning that I would like to understand better. Why is it alright for the government to interfere in the private realm of the individual when it comes to things such as culture and language
Because it's not the private realm of the individual we're talking about. In your life you can speak pig-latin for all anyone cares, but in the public sector... instituting a common language only simplifies educational resources, business and social interactions, etc... it's not forcing someone to abandon their own language which would be private... but creating a public common ground for the benefit of everyone. This isn't infringing on any private liberties at all. I'm not sure how you're seeing that.

[Krogenar]

That is through a government ministry. I thought that you had made it quite clear that the government shouldn't take positions and impose restrictions on individuals.

Correct. The French are willing to outlaw words and demand that others be used. I just think that English should be the promoted, and all other languages should fend for themselves. :)

If I had it precisely my way, the government wouldn't take any stand at all, and people who decide not to learn English would just suffer the consequences of not being capable of speaking English. At the same time, the parents who insisted their children learn English would have greater success. I'd greatly prefer that reality determine who has made the wiser decision. But since I don't live in that dreamworld, I'll play the game and try to impose what I believe to be a wise decision on people I believe to be deeply stupid.

But I would still prefer that stupid people be allowed to make stupid decisions and then pay for them dearly. That's the only way people get smarter! But that's just my opinion. :)

[Krogenar]

There are more subtle warning signs that we should be concerned about. For one is the contract awarded to Halliburton last year (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/national/04halliburton.html?ex=1296709200&en=01728da2eba059e4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss) to build new detention facilities for handling an "immigrant emergency". This is a very chilling story. The department of Homeland security couldn't spend the money to reinforce the levees in New Orleans - even though they knew what a levee break would do to the city, but yet, they spend nearly $400 million to build prisons for an 'immigrant emergency'?!

Be vigilant.

One 'flooding' crisis at a time, please.

I'm not exactly sure how building a larger detention center is 'chilling' -- where should we house these people once we capture them? Should we keep in them in outdoor pens, Sargoth? We should just build an illegal immigrant 'levy' along our entire southern border.

Also, from what I understand the problem with the levies in New Orleans was that the local government was so incredibly corrupt that they spent the levy money on political payouts instead of upgrading their own levies. The simple fact is this: the leadership of New Orleans was corrupt and stupid and exacerbated the problem. But it is politically expedient to blame Bush, so go right ahead.

[nefertiti]

Well... I had to re-read all the posts in the thread to find out where we started identifying non-English speakers as stupid. I didn't find one. When Krog and Mags discuss politics and ideology - I tend to stay away. The gentleman are far to powerful in their opinions - right and wrong.

Their presentations go from crisp, biting remarks that make one re-read and think again about personal standings. But always down the line it degenerates to someone getting plain ol' disrespected.

Immigrates tend to be fearful...after all they are leaving what they know for something new...they cling to the old. It takes time. I think that is why there is a timeframe for becoming a citizen. To give the immigrant time to be sure.

[Master Magnus]

Well... I had to re-read all the posts in the thread to find out where we started identifying non-English speakers as stupid. I didn't find one. When Krog and Mags discuss politics and ideology - I tend to stay away. The gentleman are far to powerful in their opinions - right and wrong.

Their presentations go from crisp, biting remarks that make one re-read and think again about personal standings. But always down the line it degenerates to someone getting plain ol' disrespected.

Well, one must be ambiguous sometimes... :) And people must show respect towards each other when debating here.

[nefertiti]

Thank you sir.

There really isn’t any as simple as stupid. There is ignorance. It is acknowledged sometimes with aggression and hostility. Other times with direction and suggestion. And then sometimes shyly and with a quite resignation. We often find opinions that suit us, rather than opinions that make us grow. And without growth, intolerance to others needs and wants becomes the norm. To enter the realm of Mag and Krog is to expect your ideas and views to be pounced upon and sometimes dismissed. But always there is knowledge.

[Krogenar]

Well... I had to re-read all the posts in the thread to find out where we started identifying non-English speakers as stupid. I didn't find one. When Krog and Mags discuss politics and ideology - I tend to stay away. The gentleman are far to powerful in their opinions - right and wrong.

Do you mean that respectively? :wink:

Their presentations go from crisp, biting remarks that make one re-read and think again about personal standings. But always down the line it degenerates to someone getting plain ol' disrespected.

... or someone getting their feelings hurt.

I personally feel that it is a stupid decision to do either of the following:

1. Insist that your child receive no education.
2. Insist that your child not learn English.

Note: Stupid decisions are distinctly different from stupid people. Stupid people tend to make stupid decisions, yes, but even smart people can behave stupidly.

However, I'm very much aware that others could easily come into power and declare my opinion and my decisions to be stupid, and therefore try to remove my right to make 'stupid' decisions. So instead, I say let people decide for themselves. But since no one is willing to do that in regards to education (neither in America or in Sweden) we have to make a public policy choice. And I choose English. English should be promoted as the national language. Don't outlaw or ban any other languages, just promote English.

Immigrates tend to be fearful...after all they are leaving what they know for something new...they cling to the old. It takes time.

Two points. One, we must be looking at different immigrants, because the ones where I live are rather fearless. They stand on street corners in droves, waiting to be picked up by people needing workers. They drive off in trucks every morning. They don't jump out from behind trees and rocks and dash onto the trucks. They just hang out in full sight. No one harasses them or arrests them or asks them if they're here legally. No one. So where's the fear?

Second, I agree that it takes time for new citizens to acclimate to their new country. This is why there should be limits on the number of immigrants allowed into the country -- it gives those immigrants the time needed to learn English and adjust. Immigration should be a gradual, controlled process. These are hard-working, good people, but they need to obey the law.

No once did I say that immigrants are all stupid. I think Americans are stupid for letting so many illegal immigrants into the country and not enforcing our own laws. Republicans are ignoring the problem for business interests ("Who will harvest our strawberries?") and Democrats need immigrants to vote ("Who will vote for our dingleberry?") and that's why illegal immigration is a bipartisan scandal.

[nefertiti]

Do you mean that respectively? :wink:


Certainly...from a certain point of view....

I rest my case. Crisp, biting and acerbic... Stupid is a disrespectful word. Often appropriate, it will always put up the dander. It jumped out at me in your post almost as if it were bolded and pointing its finger at me - and I have no reason be incited by it. Your points are valid and although you do not look to persuade, that word shut me down. Perhaps something else next time...

[Master Cephus]

Where I live, this is a hot topic because of the type of work-force that is needed. IMO, it seems a racism shift from blacks to latinos around here. It's sad really.

I believe that have an official language of English doesn't change anything. When is the last time a bill passed legislation that wasn't in English? It's pretty much standard anyways.

I think we should have a baseline for educational purposes, but we should offer to teach other languages as well (I see benefits of Spanish), but not requiring them.

I don't really see the big deal in all of this. As far as if we make it official, the US will cease as we know it and we become a fascist state, that's a little far-fetched.

[Talcy]

^Amen, said the foreigner.

All a fuss over absolutely nought.

[Sargoth]

Where I live, this is a hot topic because of the type of work-force that is needed. IMO, it seems a racism shift from blacks to latinos around here. It's sad really.


Today, the ultra-nationalist fringe is up in arms about Mexican immigrants speaking Spanish in their neighborhoods. A hundred years ago, the ultra-nationalist fringe was up in arms about Irish and Italian immigrants practicing Catholocism in their neighborhoods. Same hate. Same pitiful justifications. Different targeted minority.

[Master Cephus]

Today, the ultra-nationalist fringe is up in arms about Mexican immigrants speaking Spanish in their neighborhoods. A hundred years ago, the ultra-nationalist fringe was up in arms about Irish and Italian immigrants practicing Catholocism in their neighborhoods. Same hate. Same pitiful justifications. Different targeted minority.

Isn't it terrible that we don't have to teach hate, but quite the opposite?

[Krogenar]

Today, the ultra-nationalist fringe is up in arms about Mexican immigrants speaking Spanish in their neighborhoods. A hundred years ago, the ultra-nationalist fringe was up in arms about Irish and Italian immigrants practicing Catholocism in their neighborhoods. Same hate. Same pitiful justifications. Different targeted minority.

Ah, so everything is the same, huh?

First off I don't hate immigrants, my grandparents were immigrants. It's much easier to just declare that someone is a 'hater' than have to actually craft a sincere, rational argument. Second, things are not the same as the last wave of immigrants came to America. The Irish and Italian immigrants (from whom I am directly descended) came to America, for the most part ... (get ready!) ...

LEGALLY.

My grandparents didn't sneak into this country. They waited in line, they filled out the forms and they obeyed the laws of their new country. They embraced American culture. They didn't consider themselves exiled Italian or Irish nationalists -- they wanted to become Americans. And they did.

I think that's a huge difference from the wave of illegal immigrants we see today, Sargoth. They don't consider themselves Americans, and they don't believe that the laws of this country are worth obeying. It doesn't matter what language they speak, or what religion they practice, it's how they behave.

So no, things aren't 'the same' as they were in the past.

[Krogenar]

Isn't it terrible that we don't have to teach hate, but quite the opposite?

How about teaching people to respect the law? For example... don't cross over international borders illegally? Could we teach that? Is that too much to expect? I can't stand people who break the law with impunity. It doesn't matter if it's a Frenchman sneaking across the Mexican border, or a Swedish pastry chef, looking for a better life.

Obey the frickin' laws, please?

Oh, right -- I remember the counter-argument: 'Krog, you just hate immigrants.'

Either enforce the laws, or declare a free-for-all. Just change the laws then. Declare that anyone can just walk into America at any time. Once your feet touch American soil, you're an American. Can we do that? We might as well, because that's the reality.

[Master Cephus]

Ah, so everything is the same, huh?

First off I don't hate immigrants, my grandparents were immigrants. It's much easier to just declare that someone is a 'hater' than have to actually craft a sincere, rational argument. Second, things are not the same as the last wave of immigrants came to America. The Irish and Italian immigrants (from whom I am directly descended) came to America, for the most part ... (get ready!) ...

LEGALLY.

My grandparents didn't sneak into this country. They waited in line, they filled out the forms and they obeyed the laws of their new country. They embraced American culture. They didn't consider themselves exiled Italian or Irish nationalists -- they wanted to become Americans. And they did.

I think that's a huge difference from the wave of illegal immigrants we see today, Sargoth. They don't consider themselves Americans, and they don't believe that the laws of this country are worth obeying. It doesn't matter what language they speak, or what religion they practice, it's how they behave.

So no, things aren't 'the same' as they were in the past

In my perspective, I think Sargoth was talking not so much if they are legal or not, but just the fact that they are there. I think that the hatred or dislike of any immigrant (the past Irish, Italian; today's Latino) is predominant...at least around where I live.

I am not talking legalities, just the fact of immigrants.

[Sargoth]

In my perspective, I think Sargoth was talking not so much if they are legal or not, but just the fact that they are there.


Wait a minute... Has Krogenar been responding to my posts this whole time?

[ Sargoth changes his "Ignore" settings ]

Well, I'll be a Bavarian cab driver. He must be thrilled to be getting the last word in!


I think that the hatred or dislike of any immigrant (the past Irish, Italian; today's Latino) is predominant...at least around where I live.
I don't know how nationally 'predominant' it is. But anti-immigrant(legal or otherwise) activity is certainly on the rise. The KKK is showing a resurgence (http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0209/p02s02-ussc.html), and local groups like The Minuteman Project (a group whom I idealogically support) are starting to get some bad press. (http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/168944.php) Take the border issue, and the continuing paranoia over 9/11 and it stands to reason that the far-right groups would be mobilizing and calling for an end to *all* immigration. This will never happen, of course. I just hope their influence stops before people start getting hurt.


Isn't it terrible that we don't have to teach hate, but quite the opposite?
Kids learn what they're taught. A family or community that harbors some racist sentiments will invariably turn out kids with similar mindsets. And lets face it. It's easier to build distrust than it is to build understanding. Seeing the issue critically takes much more effort than just responding impulsively. I know plenty of adults who are incapable of seeing the immigration issue beyond "D'ey took our jaahhbs!!"

[Krogenar]

Mexican Senate sides with Illegal Immigrant

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-08-23-mexico-immigration_N.htm?csp=34

MEXICO CITY (AP) — A Mexican Senate committee passed a measure Wednesday urging President Felipe Calderon to send a diplomatic note to the United States protesting the deportation of an illegal migrant who took refuge in a Chicago church for a year.
The committee also approved a scholarship to help her 8-year-old U.S.-born son, Saul, who is an American citizen and stayed in the United States.
Elvira Arellano, 32, became an activist and a national symbol for illegal immigrant parents by defying her deportation order and speaking out from her sanctuary in the Adalberto United Methodist Church. She announced last week that she was leaving to try to lobby U.S. lawmakers for immigration reform.
On Sunday, shortly after she spoke at a rally in a Los Angeles church, she was arrested and deported to Tijuana, across the border from San Diego.
"We cannot remain quiet in view of this injustice and must ask for firm action from our authorities," Mexican Sen. Humberto Zazue said.
He accused the United States of violating international deportation accords by denying her access to the Mexican Consulate in Los Angeles.
Arellano, who was at the committee's session, said Saul is in Chicago in the care of his godmother and will attend a Sept. 12 rally for immigration reform in Washington. She said she would help organize a rally in Tijuana that same day to demand Mexican authorities do more to protect migrants.
"For me it is very important that our government take a strong stand to defend all of us who decide to migrate to another country," she said.


Calderon broke American laws by crossing the border illegally, and her deportation was wonderful. They should send her son back to Mexico. What's that you say? Her son is an American citizen, and therefore he can't be deported, because it would be illegal? Well, it was illegal for his mother to enter America without permission -- that didn't stop her from doing it. That's the beauty of selectively enforcing laws -- anyone can do it, including me.

America needs to do the following:

1. Change immigration laws so that the children of illegal immigrants do not gain citizenship at birth.
2. Build a frickin' wall on our southern border to prevent any future illegal immigrants.
3. Make an announcement: "All illegal aliens must register with the U.S. government by having their photos taken, their fingerprints registered, etc." Those illegals who do not register within a six month period will be forever denied citizenship. Issue 'Registered Illegal' I.D. cards to those who illegals who register.
4. Begin examining each illegal immigrant's case and get them on either a path to citizenship, or on a bus back to their native country. Hard-working illegals who genuinely want to become Americans should be given a fair chance to earn citizenship.
5. Begin to round up immigrants who have not registered, and penalize business owners who hire unregistered illegals. Illegals without their registration IDs will be denied all social services, period.

[Master Magnus]

Please don't spam the board with identical posts in several threads.

[Krogenar]

Please don't spam the board with identical posts in several threads.

I cross-posted in two threads, Magnus, and in each case the post was relevant. One was this thread (in which illegal immigration has been a recurring topic) and the other duplicate post was in a 'Survey' thread about ... illegal immigration!
It's not like I'm trying to sell Viagra in every thread! :blink:

Does two posts in two threads constitute 'several' and 'spam', Magnus?

Can I interest you in some Enzyte, perhaps? It's a natural male enhancement. :eh:

http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/johnroberts.jpg

Ninja Edit:
I've redacted the other post, and referred anyone who might want to read it, to this post.

[Master Magnus]

Well, perhaps you do have a point. However, it didn't have anything to do with the topic of this thread and it's identical with the other post. If you think it's relevant, you could always link to the existing post.

And thank you but no thanks. I think I have a couple of offers in my inbox already. :P

[Krogenar]

Well, perhaps you do have a point. However, it didn't have anything to do with the topic of this thread and it's identical with the other post. If you think it's relevant, you could always link to the existing post.

Glad you're the sheriff, Magnus!

Actually, I think the topics of illegal immigration and whether English should become the 'official' language in America are related topics, one being hardly 'off-topic'.

But I'll indulge you: Elvira Arellano has given many speeches about the illegality of American policy towards illegal aliens -- all given in her native tongue, Spanish. Now the story is a molecule closer to being on topic.

And thank you but no thanks. I think I have a couple of offers in my inbox already. :P

Let's stay on topic, please? This thread was on a relatively consistent track until you roared in about spam and Viagra, Magnus. :wink: