Masters and Apprentices

[Teek]

If you've been following spoilers by now you probably know Qui-Gon was trained by Count Dooku, and that Dooku in turn was trained by Yoda. This in turn makes one realize Obi-Wan was trained by Qui-Gon and Anakin thus by Obi-Wan. Isn't it kinda funny how these 5 individuals, these 5 Jedi and their teachings were tied into the very downfall of the galaxy? Different philosophies between the men led to disillusionment and the downfall of the Republic and the Jedi. Anyone have any thoughts? Did Lucas go to far by making things that tied together? Or does it make the Saga all the more powerful?

[Tovor]

I don't think he went too far, Teek, I think it makes the saga all the more powerful.

It makes me think a bit more about Vader's line to Obi-Wan in ANH, "The circle is now complete...now I am the Master." *I can't say exactly how, but it seems to me, vaguely, that the circle he spoke of had something to do with the circle of connections you described. *

On a different side of it, it makes me feel that Yoda was not so good of a teacher after all. *He tought Dooku, who later became a rebel; Dooku trained Qui-Gon, who later became a maverick and a radical to the accepted ways of Yoda's teachings; Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan, who later became filled with pride in his teaching abilities and assumed he could train Anakin as well as Yoda could have; and of course, Anakin later became unable to control his anger and desires and wants. *It is almost as if Yoda's failed teaching had started the downfall cycle, as if his inadequate lessons to Dooku led to Qui-Gon's, which led to Obi-Wan's, ect. *And then, ironically, it was Anakin's son who defied Yoda and Obi-Wan by giving in to his feelings to save his friends, who later righted all the above wrongs and saved the galaxy that the string of failed teachers inadvertantly allowed to fall into darkness.

Regarding the term disillusionment that you used, I can see where Obi-Wan might have become disillusioned with the very Jedi Council he later became a part of, in that at first they treated Qui-Gon at a distance and with lessened respect because of his refusal to follow the code, and did not take his belief that the Sith had returned seriously enough--which later led to Qui-Gon's death, which would not have happened had the Council believed him and sent more Jedi back to Naboo--and also that they did not believe in Anakin and take his potential seriously enough, which later led to Anakin falling prey to his own desires and Palpatine's seduction. *I wonder, at the end of Episode III, if Obi-Wan will fully blame himself or in part his elders; and, if Yoda too will feel partial guilt over the downfall he inadvertantly began.

[Peach Wookiee]

Every teacher, I imagine, has a student that they wish they could've done a better job with. Jedi masters are only humanoid, after all.
We, the fans, see where the Jedi could've been spared, if only someone had listened to someone else. Unfortunately, the Jedi, though they could see into the future, didn't see what was right in front of them.

[merryweather]

I think the cycle -- I'm calling it Yoda's line -- is fascinating, especially considering the father/son relationship I'm going to assume is pretty normal for the master/apprentice. *We know Obi-Wan saw Qui-Gon that way; Ewan's acting left no doubt. *Hayden's did, I thought, but that's another issue, and anyway, the line is in there: "He's like my father," ... or something to that extent. *I've only seen it once. *

In any case, with the exception of the Skywalkers, these Jedi are all taken away from their families for training as toddlers -- the Jedi master who trains them is the only father figure they've ever had. And you know, fathers and sons. *Stuff happens. *It's that relationship that enabled Qui-Gon to lay such a burden on his surrogate son even as he died -- Obi-Wan loved him enough to go against the council for him if he had to, which he would never have done on his own.

The father/son relationship between Jedi and their Padawan also makes Luke's completion of the cycle more legitamite, as he was never Anakin's apprentice, but he was his son.

This revelation -- which I LOVE -- is making me question Yoda's ability as a teacher too. *Everybody's got a weakness, even Yoda, and since it clearly isn't fighting with a lightsaber, or anything in the department of raw power, it makes sense that not every student is going to respond to Yoda. *

Yoda's problem, I think, is how well he understands the Force, and, conversely, how hard this necessarily makes it for him to understand someone who doesn't just GET it. *And you don't get hooked up as a padawan in Yoda's line unless you've got a lot of power, clearly, but power and understanding are two different things, as Anakin demonstrates.

Obi-Wan, I think, only avoided the corruption that touched everyone in Yoda's line by his sheer Obi-Wanness -- by a natural understanding of the Force that Dooku, Qui-Gon, and Anakin lacked. *It is this understanding (plus being pissed, of course *:wink: ) that enabled Obi-Wan to kill Darth Maul; it's what will enable him to beat the crap out of Anakin in whatever fight lands the latter in the Vader costume, despite the fact that the kid is right, he is stronger. *

Yeah, Obi-Wan was headstrong in TPM, but Qui-Gon indluged that -- Qui-Gon, a selfish, arrogant prick himself, didn't see what a problem it would cause in Anakin, and insisted he was right and the Council was wrong. *Dooku, I'm sure, indulged the rebelliousness and arrogance in Qui-Gon is his turn. Obi-Wan wanted his master to listen to the council, and by the time of Clones has clearly grown much more sedate and humble -- not enough, perhaps, but Yoda and Mace Windu are talking to him like we never saw them talk to Qui-Gon. *You can tell all the way through that the Light Side just makes SENSE to Obi-Wan, and that's why he sticks to it so unwaveringly. *

But that understanding gives Obi-Wan the same problem as a teacher that Yoda had, and with Anakin, the stakes are higher. *Obi-Wan sent Luke to Yoda thinking it was his fault that Anakin turned -- and certainly he played a part, but Luke didn't so much listen to Yoda either, did he? But Luke was a grown-up, more or less, and for all his faults had already chosen the Light Side of his own accord. *But with Luke's going to Yoda for instruction, the cycle really is complete, and whole father/son theing goes back to the beginning.

[shaps]

Yoda has taught Jedi for what, 700-800 years....

Interesting that in the past 100 years, Dooku came from him, then Qui-Gon, etc....

This leads me to think that the influence of the Dark Side has been around for longer than just TPM. Perhaps Sidious was in the Jedi Council, or was just a strong Jedi that turned, and then started to corrupt the Padawan's right under Yoda's nose.

It's a possibility and helps to explain the recent "failures" of Yoda's teachings.

[Landos_palmade]

But who was the master of the last Jedi?

Yoda.

As Anakin is redeemed in ROTJ and the balance restored, the failures of Yoda are redeemed with his teachings of the final Jedi: Luke Skywalker.

Further pirating of themes from common ancient myth cycles.

[Senator Amory]

The arrogance and rebelliousness is not put on the Jedi by his master but by himself. Yoda had no arrogance, but yet Dooku was possibly one of the most arrogant Jedi ever. Arrogance is what started the whole downfall of the Jedi. Yoda, in my opinion, is still one of the best, if not the best, master/teacher of all time. A Master can only teach so much to his Padawan. But it is up to the Padawan if he fells he should follow those teachings or not. The choice is up to the apprentice, not the master. But in a way, yes; if a Jedi fails, his former master, without a doubt, will fell a little responsible for that failure. Even though the one to blame is the Jedi who failed.:sarcasm:

[JediBendu]

I disagree
Yoda's arrogance is quite evident in Phantom - 'more to say master qui-gon?' with that 'what are you still doing here' sigh. Windu wasn't that much better in Phantom and worse in AOTC 'dooku couldn't kill anyone, it's just not in his nature'.
I think GL is paralleling the senate corruption with the jedi's complacency.
Both qui-gon and dooku are aware of the bureaucratic nature the jedi council - dooku left, qui-gon just didn't listen.
GL's message is the cliche about ongoing vigillence is needed to save democracy from itself. or something...

[moocat]

BUMP back to the first page cause this topic deserves to be there. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[Senator Amory]

GL's message is the cliche about ongoing vigillence is needed to save democracy from itself.

Once you stand back and look at it all, you will see that what Palpatine did wasn't so bad after all.

1)After he brought his New Order to power, he disbanned the Senate so they couldn't corrupt his planning. Needless to say, they couldn't corrupt anything. So there goes the corruption of the government out the window.

2)Now, on to the Jedi. It seems that the Jedi, even Yoda, had become arrogant in there ways. Palpatine also ended their arrogance after he and Anakin(Vader) did away with most of the Jedi.

After doing these things, Palpatine, without even knowing it, gave the galaxy a clean slate to start fresh and new. So once you look at it, maybe the Empire wasn't so bad after all. It seemed bad because it did away with the Republic and the Jedi. But these things had gone corrupt and arrogant and didn't work anymore. They had become old and tired. So the Empire, in a way, was just what the galaxy needed. :sarcasm:

[Count Dooku]

I have to disagree with you on this one. It's not any of the Jedi's faults. Obi-Wan knew Anakin had great skill and was a head of him in some things. Anakin was arrogant and thought his master was wrong. Anakin was only 19 and he was probably ready for the trials on the skill side that is. Obi-Wan knew he wasn't ready because Anakin always disobeyed his master and Anakin really never realized it. Palpy put so much high hopes and telling Anakin things. Anakin basically listened to Palpy, not Obi-Wan. Palpy said "Someday you'll be the most powerful Jedi ever, even more powerful then Master Yoda" or something like that. Anakin didnt listen to his mentor. Anakin was reckless, and confident way to confident. Plus he had emotional ties with Padme which Jedi were forbidden to love, otherwise it would get in there way. If Anakin could control his emotions and listened to his master he would have been a great Jedi, perhaps even more powerful then Yoda. When Anakin joined the Emperor he kind of weakened. He wasn't all that powerful you know even though he looked intimidating. He killed Obi-Wan which he really didnt Obi-Wan sacrified himself to save Luke and he never killed his son plus Luke really wasn't as experienced as Anakin. So I think he weakened. It's not the Jedi's fault it's clearly Anakins for not obeying his true master *Obi-Wan*, recklessness, emotional ties. All of those things seduced him to join the dark side.

[Tovor]

After doing these things, Palpatine, without even knowing it, gave the galaxy a clean slate to start fresh and new. So once you look at it, maybe the Empire wasn't so bad after all. It seemed bad because it did away with the Republic and the Jedi. But these things had gone corrupt and arrogant and didn't work anymore. They had become old and tired. So the Empire, in a way, was just what the galaxy needed. *

Senator Amory, you have a good concept in principle, but I have to disagree with your assessment of Palpatine's accomplishment. *

Yes, true, the Senate was corrupt (Thanks in part to Palpatine, a small part but significant.), but the Senate was there to represent the people of the galaxy. *Yes, also true, the Jedi had become lax and arrogant, but the Jedi were there to protect the people of the galaxy. *The Senate per se was not the people of the galaxy, it was there FOR the people of the galaxy. *The Jedi per se was not the people of the galaxy, they were there FOR the people of the galaxy. *Palpatine, by ending the corruption by ending the senate, and ending the arrogance by ending the Jedi, did nothing but hurt the people of the galaxy far worse. *With no senate to represent them, the people's cries for justice did not reach the emperor's ears. *With no Jedi to protect them, the suffering of the people under ruthless warlords did not cease.

Yes, because of Palpatine the senate eventually started over with a clean slate, and the Jedi got a slow but new beginning, but many billions died in the meantime, and billions more suffered through the emperor's reign. *If you weigh the good of a clean slate for the Senate and Jedi, against the weight of the suffering and genocide Palpatine caused, you have to deduce that there had to be a better way to wipe the slate clean for the good of the galaxy.

[bodhisattva yoda]

right. considering the emperor was cool with blowing up planets, his dictatorship wasn't exactly one of benevolence, was it.

[Senator Amory]

True, but many of the people were bad also. If the Senators represented the people, then the people are the ones who went to the seperatist movement. And so on and so forth. I will admit, there could have benn a better way to bring peace back to the galaxy, but what happened, happened. But, the way of the Empire was a better way to bring peace, in my opinion. Here's why.

We take many things for granted. We take the air we breath for granted. We take the water we drink for granted. We take our freedom for granted. But once you take those away, only then will we realize what we had. And only then will we miss it, and respect it, and cherish it. The people of the galaxy had taken there freedom for granted. So did the senators. And the Jedi took their powers and ability for granted. But, once those things were taken away from them by the Empire, only then did they realize what they were truly missing out on. The Empire had woken them up and helped them realize what peace and freedom truly are. And that way, they will be able to rebuild a stronger, better Republic, and a new stronger Jedi Order.

Just my opinion. ???

[JediBendu]

"But, once those things were taken away from them by the Empire, only then did they realize what they were truly missing out on."


Will someone in your country PLEASE wakeup and realise that this happening in the REAL world, not just in the SW universe.

Yoda: should have taken personal responsibility of Anakin's training

Dooku: picked the wrong side, Sidious used him as a pawn in his own power quest

Qui-Gon: gave the worst piece of advice possible for a Jedi - "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts"

Obi-Wan: should have realised he wasn't up to the challenge of taking a padawan so soon after he himself was one.

Anakin: played the hand he was dealt and ended up 2nd in command of a galaxy.


It is unifying in a way that Yoda, Obi and Anakin are hanging out in the spirit world in ROJ. If the retouch it again they should splice Qui-Gon in as well.

[Tovor]

This discussion need not be forgotten.

[Ulic]

A good theory!

I think the influence of the Dark Side was definitely around long before TPM, but seeing as that's EU, it doesn't really count in the movies.

I think Anakin's finding was the start of the downfall. Then Qui-Gon's death. Then Anakin's training by the less experienced Obi-Wan.

[JediBendu]

It's funny you mentioned that

'We'll try one of the smaller dealers' - qui-gon

'I'm the only one hereabouts who has one' - watto

'I'm sure another option will present itself' - qui-gon

'He can help you, he was meant to help you' - shmi

'Our meeting was not a coincidence, nothing happens by accident' - qui-gon, phantom

A serious of innocuous events on a backwater planet in the outer rim led to the downfall of the Jedi and the rise of Imperial Tyranny.

But is it the Jedi's fault - they're only following [blindly] the will of the Force.
There is another thought.
If Padme hadn't been so damn curious about Tatooine and forced Qui-Gon to take him with him none of this would have happened.

'This is not a good idea' - qui-gon, phantom

He KNEW! But was so caught up with the Living Force that he couldn't extrapolate.
Question, if Qui-Gon, Jar Jar and r2 had gone into Watto's without Padme, do you think they would have even noticed a slave boy in rags? I think not.

'Are you an Angel?' - anakin, phantom

Imagine saying that as you opening line to a chic - pretty heavy stuff.
It was Padme's insistence on accompanying them, stemming from the arrogance of royalty, that led to the downfall of the galaxy.

PADME WILL DIE WHEN A STAR DESTROYER LANDS ON HER HEAD!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/evil.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

[maddog62]

Anikin is macking at such a young age.

[JediBendu]

what's 'macking'?

[maddog62]

If you don't know I can not tell you.

[JediBendu]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif ack now I'll have to make it up!

[Darth Vegas]

Sorry to burst your bubble Teek, but the official site clearly states, in Yoda's data file, that he has a unique role in the Jedi order, and does not take a personel apprentice, he trains classes of young Jedi Padawans.

Dooku was not Yoda's apprentice, he was merely one of those younglings at one time, as was Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan, and as Anakin should have been but was not.

In an interview with GL I think about two years ago, he stated that what Qui-Gon was pressing for concerning Anakin, was not so much that he be trained, but that he skip the first part of training with Yoda, thus explaining the line "I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda, I was wrong".

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[freedom01851]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Sep 5 2002, 01:00 AM
There is another thought.
If Padme hadn't been so damn curious about Tatooine and forced Qui-Gon to take him with him none of this would have happened.

'This is not a good idea' - qui-gon, phantom

He KNEW! But was so caught up with the Living Force that he couldn't extrapolate.
Question, if Qui-Gon, Jar Jar and r2 had gone into Watto's without Padme, do you think they would have even noticed a slave boy in rags? I think not.


How about that, another chick being the downfall of another civilization. Not the first and more than likely not the last.

Before a few ladies jump in asking who, start at the supposed beginning with Eve. I say supposed because not everyone believes in Adam and Eve.

How about Helen of Troy? One huge war over one chick.

[JediBendu]

How about Helen of Troy? One huge war over one chick.

ya - but she was a hottie style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Master Cephus]

I don't know. Every Jedi was trained by Yoda if you remember. I imagine he had more than one Padowan like Dooku was to him. I think it was like this: Yoda knew the challenge of teaching Dooku, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anikan. It's like you are training, trying to instill some kind of responsibility or whatever you call it so that it will be harder for them to turn to the dark side. It's like Yoda created a conscience. Think of how powerful Anikan would have been if Sideious got to Anikan first and trained hime since TPM??? He would have no thoughts of love, compassion...the perfect killing machine...
Just my thought style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif

[jbird669]

When does Obi-Wan become a member of the Jedi Council? That was never mentioned. To my knowledge the only ones remaining are Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Yoda and Mace, according to the spoilers on the net. Nowhere was it ever mentioned that Obi-Wan was on it.

[Martini]

I'm thinking by the beginning of EP3, Yoda or Mace is gonna say how great it is that the Clone Wars are finally over, but how its killed so many jedis. and the only ones left are the 10 or so from the counsil, plus obi-wan maybe someone else and anakin.

this way, we got a good idea of who is left so we know that Anakin/Vader will and can kill those remaining Jedis

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by jbird669@Sep 6 2002, 06:16 PM
When does Obi-Wan become a member of the Jedi Council? That was never mentioned. To my knowledge the only ones remaining are Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Yoda and Mace, according to the spoilers on the net. Nowhere was it ever mentioned that Obi-Wan was on it.
They recently answered that question on the official site, all of the Jedi that were left when the gunships arrived at the arena survived.


About what you said Martini, I wonder just how many Jedi die between AOTC in Episode 3. I kind of do think that only maybe a thousand or a couple hundred are left at the beginning of Episode 3.

Who knows, but I still believe full heartedly that many Jedi will aid the Empire in the purge, just don't have a plausible reason to explain where they are at in the OT that's all. I'll dig something up.

[Martini]

see everyone keeps talking about how theres 1000s of jedis in the universe. well if you ONLY watch the movies, then you probably think there around 20 or 30 of them. and most people have no clue how many are left after AOTC.

so you cant even rely on the novelizations of these movies cause if it isnt explained on camera, then it really doesnt count

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 6 2002, 07:06 PM
Who knows, but I still believe full heartedly that many Jedi will aid the Empire in the purge, just don't have a plausible reason to explain where they are at in the OT that's all. I'll dig something up.
Sidious and Vader betray/kill them after the purge is complete.

[DblDwn]

Originally posted by Martini@Sep 6 2002, 08:27 PM
so you cant even rely on the novelizations of these movies cause if it isnt explained on camera, then it really doesnt count
I disagree

The book for AOTC came out well before the movie and was the exact same. The dialogue was pretty much identical and the scenes that take place in the book and aren't in the movie (The Lost 20 conversation, Anakin meeting Padme's family, etc.) are already confirmed as the deleted scenes from the movie that we will be able to see on the DVD. So Salvatore, and Brooks as well with TPM novel, obviously had an advance copy of the screenplay when writing the book. That being said I am inclined to believe that Lucas has a lot of influence over what is included in the novels and what is not.

Therefore I would say that the books are extremely reliable for information.

[JediBendu]

:: stand clear - bumping in progress ::